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ID-FRONTIERS for January 1-8, 2000
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| hybrid American x Eurasian Wigeon | ian paulsen | Sat, 1 Jan 2000 | 9:43pm |
| adult-basic HEGU bills | Evan Obercian | Sun, 2 Jan 2000 | 1:31pm |
| Charels K. Worthen | Ian Mclaren | Tue, 4 Jan 2000 | 7:59am |
| a small, dark Canada Goose from Texas | Martin Reid | Tue, 4 Jan 2000 | 9:06pm |
| Tagged Great Blue Heron | Joel Weintraub | Wed, 5 Jan 2000 | 1:57pm |
| Re: Tagged Great Blue Heron | Steve Sosensky | Wed, 5 Jan 2000 | 3:19pm |
| Yukon Hoary Redpolls | Cameron Eckert | Wed, 5 Jan 2000 | 4:18pm |
| Re: Tagged Great Blue Heron | Mary Gustafson | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 8:04am |
| Fw: Thayer's Gull??? | Bruce Mactavish | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 12:20pm |
| Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull??? | Ned Brinkley | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 12:54pm |
| Norway Thayer's | Steve Hampton | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 1:09pm |
| Fw: Fw: Thayer's Gull??? | DJLauten and KACaste | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 1:25pm |
| Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull??? | Dr. Michael M. Roger | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 3:06pm |
| Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull??? | Dick Newell | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 3:53pm |
| Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull??? | Nick Lethaby | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 4:05pm |
| Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull??? | Greg Toffic | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 4:56pm |
| Home page update. | Jerry R. Oldenettel | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 5:33pm |
| The Norwegian Thayer's Gull | Bruce Mactavish | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 9:04pm |
| Re: Norway Thayer's | Robert H. Lewis | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 9:39pm |
| Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull??? | Alvaro Jaramillo | Thu, 6 Jan 2000 | 11:36pm |
| Re: Norwegian Thayer's | Phil Pickering | Fri, 7 Jan 2000 | 10:06am |
| Re: Norwegian Thayer's | Steve Hampton | Fri, 7 Jan 2000 | 11:02am |
| Re: Norwegian Thayer's | Robert H. Lewis | Fri, 7 Jan 2000 | 11:13am |
| Re: Oregon Thayer's | Phil Pickering | Fri, 7 Jan 2000 | 12:00pm |
| Another Puzzling Gull | Noel Wamer | Fri, 7 Jan 2000 | 2:39pm |
| interesting gull at Niagara | Glenda Slessor | Sat, 8 Jan 2000 | 6:01pm |
| Re: interesting gull at Niagara | Robert H. Lewis | Sat, 8 Jan 2000 | 8:32pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: hybrid American x Eurasian Wigeon
From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US>
Date: 1 Jan 2000 9:43pm
HI Bird Frontiers:
I had today while doing the Kitsap County WA State CBC here on
Bainbridge Island, WA I had a bird I believe to be an American x Eurasian
Hybrid. It was male with a green eyestripe and pale cream colored cheeks.
I know that a few pure Americans can have pure cheeks but this bird also
had flank color that was a mixed of Gray and pink. The gray was along the
sides and pink was confined to the chest area. Any comments?
Sincerely
Ian "Birdbooker" Paulsen
Bainbridge Is., WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
"Rallidae all the way"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: adult-basic HEGU bills
From: Evan Obercian <ewilsono(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 2 Jan 2000 1:31pm
ID Frontiers,
According to Grant, Herring Gulls in adult basic plumage should have no
black on the bill, just the red or orange spot present in summer as well.
However, it has been my experience that at least a small percentage of birds
which are "adults" by plumage, show a variable dusky spot on top of the
orange/red, or even a hint of a subterminal ring. These birds show no other
signs that they are less than fully matured (i.e. they have primary mirrors,
all-gray upperparts, pure white tails, etc). Can it be assumed these birds
are in fact in their 4th-winter, or can HEGUs of any age (4yr+) have black
in the bill? There may be a simple answer, in which case you may respond
personally.
Thanks,
Evan Obercian
Tewksbury, NJ
ewilsono(AT)hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Charels K. Worthen
From: Ian Mclaren <iamclar(AT)IS.DAL.CA>
Date: 4 Jan 2000 7:59am
All:
Does anyone on this list know something about or sources of information on
Charles K. Worthen, 19th cent. US collector? Specifically, was he a
trustworthy collector with respect to provenance of specimens? Was he
likely to have been in Nova Scotia in January 1892? Or did he have
sources of supply around the continent?
If you know some museum curators/ornithologists who aren't on this list,
could you mention this interest of mine? The answer may lie in
contemporary catalogue entries or specimen labels for Nova Scotia
specimens. I have access to web material from Cornell, USNM, AMNH, MVZ.
Thanks, Ian M.
Ian A. McLaren
Biology Department phone: (902) 494-2565 (W)
Dalhousie University (902) 429-7024 (H)
Halifax, NS B3H 4J1 Fax: (902) 494-3736
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: a small, dark Canada Goose from Texas
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)CYBERRAMP.NET>
Date: 4 Jan 2000 9:06pm
Dear all,
I'd like to get some experienced input on this goose I found yesterday near
Dallas:
http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa/cago.html
- are the underparts dark enough for minima? (there was a narrow band of
brownish copper between the black neck and gray breast, visible at close
range.)
The black chin line (splitting the pale facial patch in two at the bottom)
- is this significant? I know that leucopareia usually (always?) has this
feature, but can minima have this chin pattern? what about other forms?
IF not minima or leucopareia, is it an extreme form of hutchinsii?? - if
so, what then are the crucial features to look for on minima and leucopareia?
Many thanks for your input,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com or http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Tagged Great Blue Heron
From: Joel Weintraub <JWeintraub(AT)Fullerton.edu>
Date: 5 Jan 2000 1:57pm
Kimball...
Do you know who I can forward a sighting of a wing tagged Great
Blue Heron (A7) that has been hanging out in a flood control
channel at Forbes Road just south of Crown Valley Parkway in
Mission Viejo, Orange County, California.
I had the address at one time... I believe it is some San Diego
researcher. Don't want to put a message out on Calbird until I ask
around.
Joel Weintraub-Biology
Calif. State Univ., Fullerton
JWeintraub(AT)Fullerton.edu
"You must have the bird in your heart
before you can find it in the bush"
John Burroughs (1908) "Art of Seeing Things"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Tagged Great Blue Heron
From: Steve Sosensky <Steve(AT)SOSENSKY.COM>
Date: 5 Jan 2000 3:19pm
At 12:56 PM 1/5/00 -0800, Joel Weintraub wrote:
>Do you know who I can forward a sighting of a wing tagged Great
>Blue Heron (A7) that has been hanging out in a flood control
>channel at Forbes Road just south of Crown Valley Parkway in
>Mission Viejo, Orange County, California.
Joel and IDers,
Official service bands of the CWS and US Department of the Interior
(FWS/NBS/USGS) can be reported by calling 1-800-327-BAND from 7-5 EST.
These bands have 8-9 numbers stamped on them. Reports of live
sightings of color marked birds are best sent to me by e-mail or snail
mail and not phoned in. Any band with "Wash DC", "Laurel MD", or
"NBS-USA" as a legend can be reported to the 1-800 number above. This
includes all federal bands. Have the band number, location, date, and
the finders name and address (if different from yours) ready when you
call. A certificate of appreciation with the original banding
information will be sent by mail. Your call from the USA and Canada
as well as the Caribbean is free of charge, outside this area call
1-301-497-5943.
This number is for reporting bird bands, not for other BBL business.
Pigeon bands should be reported to the Avian Service Center, Box
18327, Oklahoma City OK 73154-0327; 1-405-670-9400.
Mary Gustafson
BBL Biologist
Mary_Gustafson(AT)nbs.gov
Laurel MD USA
Good birding,
Steve <mailto:steve(AT)sosensky.com>
Steve Sosensky, photographer www.sosensky.com
10834 Blix Street #213 818-508-4946
Toluca Lake, CA 91602 34*09'02" N, 118*22'47" W
Audubon in So. California www.audubon.org/chapter/ca/socal/
San Fernando Valley AS www.audubon.org/chapter/ca/sfvas/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Yukon Hoary Redpolls
From: Cameron Eckert <cameron.eckert(AT)GOV.YK.CA>
Date: 5 Jan 2000 4:18pm
Hi All,
Redpoll identification is a favourite Yukon winter pastime. In southern
Yukon, the ratio of Hoaries to Commons tends to be about 1:100. I've posted
a composite photo of Hoary Redpolls Carduelis hornemanni exilipes (all
photographed in Whitehorse) at the Yukon Bird Club web site:
http://www.yukonweb.com/community/ybc/ybc_bird.jpg
Features for distinguishing the frosty redpoll from its more common cousin
include:
1) Very little breast streaking.
2) White rump with no streaks.
3) White undertail with very limited (or no) thin streaks.
4) White edges to tertials and coverts.
5) Overall frosted (white) look to head.
6) The red poll tends to be brighter red.
7) A wash of pink (not red) on breast of some birds.
8) Some birds show pale peach wash around face.
9) Shorter stubbier bill.
10) Pale streak along scapulars.
11) Tend to look slightly larger than Commons.
12) Tend to cock their tails more than Commons.
13) Tend to have "bushier leggings" than Commons.
Good luck with the Hoaries!
Kind regards,
Cameron Eckert
Whitehorse, Yukon
Yukon Bird Club
Awareness ~ Appreciation ~ Conservation
http://www.yukonweb.com/community/ybc/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Tagged Great Blue Heron
From: Mary Gustafson <mary_gustafson(AT)USGS.GOV>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 8:04am
Thanks to Steve for sharing a previous post--here's my new address and
email.
Mary
Mary Gustafson
Biologist, Bird Banding Laboratory USA
USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
12100 Beech Forest Road
Laurel MD USA 20708-4037
301-497-5804
Mary_Gustafson(AT)usgs.gov
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Fw: Thayer's Gull???
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 12:20pm
----- Original Message -----
From: Alf Tore Mjøs <alf(AT)stud.zoo.uib.no>
To: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 3:09 PM
Subject: Thayer's Gull???
Hello, Bruce!
Today I photographed this juvenile gull in Bergen, Norway. I only had the
bird in front of me a couple of minutes, as I was photographing Herring
Gulls out the window from our lunch room(!). I concentrated on taking
pictures, and I can't really contribute much to this birds
appearance except what you see in the pictures. When the bird landed and
took off, I saw a very broad tail-band without any mottling or
vermiculations in it, except probably on the outermost feather. The colour
of the tail-band was too light brown for a normal Herring Gull of the
argentatus subspecies which is what we get here.
I was struck by the fact that the bird reminded me a lot about a juvenile
Thayers Gull, the shape (smaller and longer-winged than the accompanying
Herring Gulls, much smaller bill) and the general look of the coverts and
tertials all seemed good for Thayeri. Later, from the pictures, I think
the primary pattern and the dark secondaries also fit thayeri nicely.
I must stress, that I have no field experience with ANY of the large North
American gulls.
Please have a look at:
http://www.zoo.uib.no/turoy/thayers_gull/
Do you have any comments, or suggestions for who to ask for such?
If this has not been posted to ID-frontiers, could you forward it there? I
tried, but my e-mail was returned for some reason.
Regards,
Alf Tore Mjös
Kjellersmuget 9
5011 BERGEN
NORWAY
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull???
From: Ned Brinkley <Phoebetria(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 12:54pm
These are interesting photographs from Norway. The bird resembles a small
number of gulls we see at landfills and on the coast of Virginia in cold
winters. Though it has several characters of plumage associated with
Thayer's Gull (mostly solid-brown tertials, especially basally, in
particular), its structure to me looks more like Kumlien's Gull -- dove-like
head (petite, rounded), tiny bill, and very graceful, extenuated appearance
of body/wings in the rear. Perhaps we've been misidentifying first-winter
Thayer's as dark Kumlien's here, but the few Thayer's we've been able to
document this far south have seemed a bit more robust and differently
proportioned. Are there, in fact, those out there who still put stock in the
idea that there are firm characters (in field or museum) for distinguishing
Thayer's from dark Kumlien's? The tide seems to run against the notion
lately.
Ned Brinkley
Cape Charles, VA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Norway Thayer's
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 1:09pm
Alf,
Very nice photos--- and it sure looks a lot like a Thayer's Gull to me. When
I first saw your email, I thought to myself "well, it's probably going to be
some kind of Herring/Glaucous thing". No way; it's either a Thayer's or a
fairly dark kumlien's/thayer's intergrade, but if I saw it here (and I see juv
Thayer's regularly), I probably wouldn't give it a second look-- except that I
love Thayer's and would probably look again anyway. You can compare your photos
with 7 very similar juveniles at http://www.west.net/~dj/thay1.htm. The
rather dark tone, almost all-black bill, and fairly solid auriculars and
tertials are all points toward thayer's and away from kumlieni.
All that said, I am struck by how visible the pale inner webs of the
primaries are... not that that's necessarily wrong for Thayer's (it's not); I've
just never seen it so visible on a standing bird. I'm interested in other's
comments about this.
Finally, I have a Norwegian cousin who's a birder there, young guy (maybe 30
years old), name is Martin. Do you know him? I've lost a current email
address for him. He lives near Sandefjord sw of Oslo.
hadde bra,
Steve Hampton, Ph.D.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Fw: Fw: Thayer's Gull???
From: DJLauten and KACastelein <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 1:25pm
For what it's worth, if this bird was here in Bandon Oregon where I
regularly see decent numbers of Thayer's Gull, I'd call it a Thayer's Gull.
The body looks a little to the pale side, but certainly there is great
variation in first winter birds with some looking browner and some looking
paler. Interestingly Ned's comments "dove-like head (petite, rounded),
tiny bill, and very graceful, extenuated appearance
of body/wings in the rear" are pretty much what we look for here to pick
out the Thayer's amongst the Herring Gulls.
Dave Lauten
Bandon Oregon
birdsong(AT)harborside.com
----------
> From: Ned Brinkley <Phoebetria(AT)AOL.COM>
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Thayer's Gull???
> Date: Thursday, January 06, 2000 11:54 AM
>
> These are interesting photographs from Norway. The bird resembles a
small
> number of gulls we see at landfills and on the coast of Virginia in cold
> winters. Though it has several characters of plumage associated with
> Thayer's Gull (mostly solid-brown tertials, especially basally, in
> particular), its structure to me looks more like Kumlien's Gull --
dove-like
> head (petite, rounded), tiny bill, and very graceful, extenuated
appearance
> of body/wings in the rear. Perhaps we've been misidentifying
first-winter
> Thayer's as dark Kumlien's here, but the few Thayer's we've been able to
> document this far south have seemed a bit more robust and differently
> proportioned. Are there, in fact, those out there who still put stock in
the
> idea that there are firm characters (in field or museum) for
distinguishing
> Thayer's from dark Kumlien's? The tide seems to run against the notion
> lately.
>
> Ned Brinkley
> Cape Charles, VA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull???
From: "Dr. Michael M. Rogers" <mrogers(AT)NAS.NASA.GOV>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 3:06pm
On the face of it, this bird does indeed look like a good candidate
for Thayer's Gull. The overall shape, the bill, and the nice marbling
on the coverts all look good. The tertials are also typical of a
pretty average Thayer's Gull. The primaries seemed a little strange
to me, however. In most of the pictures (e.g. picture number one)
they look quite dark (at least on this computer) with fairly limited
pale tips, perhaps on the darker end for Thayer's? However, from the
rear (picture two) they look more normal and the underside of the
wingtip in picture 5 looks fine. It seems that the impression of the
primary color is dependent on which photo is being looked at. What
really caught my eye is what Steve Hampton already mentioned, the
white splay where the primaries meet the tips of the tertials (inner
webs of the primaries). I do not remember having seen this on
hundreds of Thayer's Gulls here near San Francisco - typically the
tips of the tertials contrast with darker brown primaries at this
location. This white is a little less obvious in picture 2, though,
so perhaps the wing is just being held a little funny in the other
photos.
Of course we get birds out here on the west coast that are MUCH paler
than this bird and still call them Thayer's Gulls...
Mike Rogers
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull???
From: Dick Newell <Dick.Newell(AT)SMALLWORLD.CO.UK>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 3:53pm
re: http://www.zoo.uib.no/turoy/thayers_gull/
From a UK perspective, If I found this bird here, it would
certainly get my blood pumping - I cannot raise any argument against it
being a Thayer's Gull. To me, it really looks like one. That smooth
chocolate appearance on the underparts and to an extent on the head seems to
be a character of a number of North American Gulls, including Thayer's,
American Herring and Californian Gull, but is unknown in my experience in
any European large Gull. There seems to be a primary missing or displaced (I
can't see where though), uncovering the inner web of P7 and P8. Given the
translucency of the underside of Thayer's primaries, I would expect the
inner webs to appear something like this.
Nice one Alf!
Dick Newell (Cambridge, England)
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull???
From: Nick Lethaby <nickl(AT)COWARE.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 4:05pm
I would agree with the comments of Mike Rogers,Steve Hampton and others
that this looks like an obvious Thayer's. To me, this bird represents the
normal (and commonly occurring) dark extreme of juv Thayer's. As others
have comment, the appearance of the the white splay where the primaries
meet the tips of the tertials is highly unusual. However, this is probably
just a result of the wing being held strangly or of a missing primary or
two. The actual pattern of the feather looks OK for Thayer's which of
course show pale inner webs. As Mike commented, many Thayer's are much
paler than this bird.
Nick Lethaby
Technical Marketing Manager
CoWare, Inc.
Tel: 408 845 7646
E-mail: nickl(AT)coware.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull???
From: Greg Toffic <greg.toffic(AT)ZOO.ORG>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 4:56pm
Boy, was that exciting to me to see the Norwegian Thayer's gull photos submitted
by Alf Tore Mjos.
http://www.zoo.uib.no/turoy/thayers_gull/
When I clicked on the first image, I saw the exact spitting image of a first
year Thayer's that I saw yesterday at Greenlake in Seattle.
Alf's bird shows the same head shape, bill size and shape, the dark primary tips
with light edging on tips, delicate checkering on coverts, dark tertials with
moderately marbled tips, and overall graceful appearance that others have
commented on.
Ironically, I had gone to this gull spot at lunchtime to try to find herring
gulls, which are uncommon here, but have been recently reported at the lake by
others. I have missed them, and was becoming somewhat frustrated, so I vowed to
go find one. As it turned out, there were two adult herrings that I found
right away, one of them posing nicely next to two adult Thayer's and the more
common mew, glaucous-winged, ring-billed, glaucous-winged x western hybrids, and
a Californnia gull. After seeing Alf's photos, I went back to Greenlake this
noontime, hoping to see the Juv. Thayer's again, with a fresh image of the
Norwegian bird in mind, but I was unable to relocate it.
Greg
Greg Toffic
Curator of Birds
Woodland Park Zoo
5500 Phinney Avenue N.
Seattle, WA 98103
(206)684-4836 PH
(206)233-7278 FAX
greg.toffic(AT)zoo.org
"Metaphors be with you"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Home page update.
From: "Jerry R. Oldenettel" <Borealowl(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 5:33pm
I have added a few year-end pictures to my recent sightings section on my
home page at:
http://members.aol..com/borealowl/
enjoy.
Jerry R. Oldenettel
Albuquerque, NM
borealowl(AT)aol.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: The Norwegian Thayer's Gull
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 9:04pm
I agree with all those who say this is a Thayer's Gull. The pale inner web
of the primaries is good for separating Thayer's from Herring - a misplaced
or missing feather should be covering up the inner webs. Kumlien's Gulls
frequently have equally solid filled tertials, but the folded primaries are
usually similar in colour, not significantly darker as in the Bergen bird
and typical Thayer's. The dark filled centres of the juvenile scapulars are
characteristic of Thayer's and help give this bird a Herring Gull look
unlike a dark Kumlien's, which usually have pale centred juv. scapulars. If
you hide the primaries and scapulars and just look at the wing coverts and
tertials I don't know if you could separate it from a dark Kumlien's.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland,
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Norway Thayer's
From: "Robert H. Lewis" <lewis(AT)bway.net>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 9:39pm
Ned Brinkley wrote:
> The bird resembles a small
> number of gulls we see at landfills and on the coast of Virginia in cold
> winters. Though it has several characters of plumage associated with
> Thayer's Gull (mostly solid-brown tertials, especially basally, in
> particular), its structure to me looks more like Kumlien's Gull -- dove-like
> head (petite, rounded), tiny bill, and very graceful, extenuated appearance
> of body/wings in the rear. Perhaps we've been misidentifying first-winter
> Thayer's as dark Kumlien's here, but the few Thayer's we've been able to
> document this far south have seemed a bit more robust and differently
> proportioned.
Steve Hampton wrote:
>
> Alf,
> When I first saw your
> email, I thought to myself "well, it's probably going to be some kind of
Herring/Glaucous thing". > No way; it's either a Thayer's or a fairly dark
kumlien's/thayer's intergrade, but if I saw it here
> (and I see juv Thayer's regularly), I probably wouldn't give it a second
look-- except that I love
> Thayer's and would probably look again anyway. You can compare your photos
with 7 very similar
> juveniles at http://www.west.net/~dj/thay1.htm. The rather dark tone, almost
all-black bill, and
> fairly solid auriculars and tertials are all points toward thayer's and away
from kumlieni.
This is really interesting; a pleasure to be thinking about gulls
again. It's neat that all the West Coast people say the bird looks just
right for Thayer's. As an East Coast person who birds between
Connecticut and North Carolina, I have to agree with Ned. I'm not
saying that it isn't a Thayer's. I certainly defer to those with more
experience with the species. It's just that I've never seen anything
like this bird in the East. The birds we call Thayer's are not this
petite looking. True they are more "cute" looking and a bit smaller
than Herring, but it's more subtle. Also, I have never seen one this
uniformly and smoothly dark overall. It really looks like a juvenile.
Our (my?) birds look like the 4th bird on
http://www.west.net/~dj/thay1.htm. They are whitish, and in my
experience the tertials are about the same color as the primaries, at
least until they get worn or sandblasted in late winter.
On the Norway bird, the tertials, tail band that I can see, overall
smudgy color, cheek (auricular) patch, bill size and color, all look
good for Thayer's. It may be nitpicking but on most of the Norway
photos the primaries seem to be a lot darker than the tertials. I guess
that's possible but I don't see it here. Also, the small looks we get
at the underside of one primary don't show much different than what a
Herring Gull (smithsonianus) would look like.
A size comparison would be nice. I would also like to see some good
photos of the open wings (above and below) before saying anything more
definite.
Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY
lewis(AT)bway.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Fw: Thayer's Gull???
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <alvaro(AT)SIRIUS.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2000 11:36pm
Birders:
The Norway Thayer's-like gull is super interesting. Initially, the bird
does indeed look like a Thayer's/Kumlien's type thing but upon close
inspection there are a couple of things that bug me about it. All of them
are subtle, and perhaps don't mean much, but given that this would be a
first record for Norway one needs to proceed with caution. Structurally,
this bird is good in terms of bill shape and wing length for Thayer's,
albeit on the small and 'cute' side. This is probably closer to typical
Kumlien's (assuming there is anything average or typical with regards to
that taxon) in bill structure than average Thayer's (repeat above caveat),
so I am in agreement with Ned on that point. However, there is so much
variation that there would be nothing unusual about a Thayer's type gull
here in California showing a petite structure like this bird. What does
bother me, and maybe this is an effect of the photos is that the legs look
mighty long. Thayer's have short legs, in particular there is very little
usually visible above the tarsal-tibial joint, unlike this bird. When
Thayer's walks, it waddles due to its short legs. This is obvious in a
group of smithsonianus Herring Gulls. The bill is becoming pale at the
base, I would say that this is on the early side for this change to occur
in Thayers, here they tend to begin showing bill patterns like this in
February, but I assume that there is variation in that point. The plumage
looks odd for an early January Thayer's Gull. In particular, I am struck
with how evenly coloured this bird is. In many ways its body plumage more
resembles a Glaucous-winged Gull than a Thayer's Gull. I am not saying it
has anything to do with a Glaucous-winged Gull, just mention that to
explain what I mean. This bird is not really pale as far as California
Thayer's go, in fact I would say its in the medium end of the spectrum.
Dark Thayer's Gulls are extremely difficult to differentiate (based on
plumage darkness) from a smithsonianus Herring Gull, this bird is much
paler than that, but noticeably darker than the palest Thayer's. It is
typical for Thayer's in this medium darkness range to be more contrasting
in the markings on the tertials and coverts. So the pale markings should
average whiter, contrasting with the dark parts. The Norway bird lacks this
noticeable contrast, 'checkering' if you will. The tertials are not heavily
speckled and dark centered, which is good for Thayer's but they are rather
pale, which is unlike Thayer's of this darkness. Medium and dark Thayer's
have tertial centers which are noticeably paler than the primaries but
obviously darker than the rest of the wing. The darkness of the tertials
should be closer to the darkness of the primaries than to the darkness of
the inner wing/body. This is reversed in the Norway bird, and in that
respect may be more close to a dark Kumlien's (maybe) except that the
actual pattern of the Norway bird's is fine for a western bird (Thayer's).
Another picky point is the pattern of the greater coverts. In Herring Gull,
and many of our larger gulls the inner greater coverts are more heavily
patterned than the outer ones, showing a noticeable change from 'darker'
outer greater coverts (nearer the front of the standing bird) to 'paler'
(actually just more boldly marked with pale notches) inner greater coverts
(nearer the tail on the standing bird). Thayer's and Kumlien's Gulls do not
tend to show this pattern, their greater coverts appear well marked from
inner to outer, and this is not the pattern shown by the Norway bird.
Perhaps nothing in the Norway bird excludes Thayer's, but the fact that
there are a couple of features not common in Thayer's (defined as birds I
see here wintering on the Pacific Coast) makes me less than confident in
the ID of this bird as a Thayer's. Particularly given the rarity of the
record. Most of you are probably thinking I am being a stick in the mud,
sorry about this. This is not a devil's advocate stance, its appearance
does really concern me. Most birds I see here showing this type of plumage
pattern I call Herring x Glaucous-wings, however those birds have an
entirely different structure from the Norway bird.
BTW, the odd primary pattern is just due to the fact that the next inner
primary is folded incorrectly, revealing the part of the adjoining primary
which is usually hidden. This is exactly what you see when the primaries
are being moulted and they are missing, on a standing bird.
Alvaro Jaramillo
Senior Biologist
San Francisco Bay Bird Observatory
P.O. Box 247
Alviso, CA 95002
(408)-946-6548
http://www.sfbbo.org/
Home of the California Fall Challenge!!
alvaro(AT)sirius.com
Birds of Chile and
New World Blackbirds at : http://www.sirius.com/~alvaro
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Norwegian Thayer's
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2000 10:06am
Here's another photo of a very similar looking Thayer's taken on
the Oregon coast in late November.
As with the Norwegian bird, the tertials are closer in color to the
coverts than to the primaries, and the inner greater coverts are
fairly solid. The bill shows a similar pattern of paleness near the
base (in November). Note also that the middles of the dark centers
to the scapulars are paler than the outer edges, creating darker
subterminal "anchor" marks. The Norwegian bird looks somewhat
similar in this respect also.
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/thayers9.jpg
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Norwegian Thayer's
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 7 Jan 2000 11:02am
I still think the Norway bird is far better for Thayer's than anything else, but
Phil's bird from Oregon (referenced below) begins to pry open the can of worms,
thus highlighting Alvaro's points. Female Herring x Gl-W? The coverts seem
awfully muddy and the bill seems rather large (but bill shape can change
dramatically from one photo to another). I'd put it in the "one photo does not
convince me" category.
Steve Hampton, Ph.D.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
>>> Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM> 01/07/00 09:06AM >>>
Here's another photo of a very similar looking Thayer's taken on
the Oregon coast in late November.
As with the Norwegian bird, the tertials are closer in color to the
coverts than to the primaries, and the inner greater coverts are
fairly solid. The bill shows a similar pattern of paleness near the
base (in November). Note also that the middles of the dark centers
to the scapulars are paler than the outer edges, creating darker
subterminal "anchor" marks. The Norwegian bird looks somewhat
similar in this respect also.
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/thayers9.jpg
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Norwegian Thayer's
From: "Robert H. Lewis" <lewis(AT)bway.net>
Date: 7 Jan 2000 11:13am
Folks,
Since questions of origin and probability of occurrence in Norway are
inevitable for this bird, I thought I would point out that Norway is
much closer to some parts of Thayer's breeding range (northwest
Greenland) than are the mid-Atlantic states of the U.S. Greenland ->
Iceland -> Faeroes -> Norway seems quite reasonable.
Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY
lewis(AT)bway.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Oregon Thayer's
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2000 12:00pm
Steve, thanks for your comments.
Referring to :
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/thayers9.jpg
I'm in over my head a bit here, but this gull was so small, petite,
round-crowned, and small-billed that I never considered anything
other than Thayer's, despite the muddy look to the coverts. It
looked identical in structure and in relative bill size and shape
to adult Thayer's that were also present. I assumed it was an
early season hatch that was showing atypical wear for November,
creating the muddy look.
Here's a second photo of the same bird (right, out of focus) with
another bird I thought was possibly a larger juv./first-winter Thayer's,
and some occidentalis Westerns on the edges of the photo.
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/thayers10.jpg
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
-----original Message-----
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
To: philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>;
BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
<BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Date: Friday, January 07, 2000 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Norwegian Thayer's
I still think the Norway bird is far better for Thayer's than anything else, but
Phil's bird from Oregon
(referenced below) begins to pry open the can of worms, thus highlighting
Alvaro's points. Female Herring x
Gl-W? The coverts seem awfully muddy and the bill seems rather large (but bill
shape can change dramatically
from one photo to another). I'd put it in the "one photo does not convince me"
category.
Steve Hampton, Ph.D.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Another Puzzling Gull
From: Noel Wamer <nwamer(AT)FCOL.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2000 2:39pm
A puzzling gull was discovered near Eastpoint, Florida in mid-December,
1999 by Howard Horne. It was photographed at some distance by Jim Cavanagh
on December 11, 1999. At Jim's request I have prepared some on-line images
of the bird for viewing and comments. The bird is a juv./1st-winter large,
mostly dark gull. Both Howard and Jim thought the bird to be between
Herring and Ring-billed in size, and that the patterns of the tertials and
greater coverts were not right for Herring. California has been suggested
as a possibility. The index page for the pictures is:
http://web2.fcol.com/~nwamer/epointgullindex.htm
Please note that I did not see the gull, and Jim is not subscribed to ID
Frontiers. A mail-link for Jim is provided to send him any comments that
are posted to the mail list.
Jim thanks you for your input.
Later...
Noel Wamer
Jacksonville, FL, US 30.2820 -81.4972
"A strange bird may cause a slight unrest until it is named..."
(Walker Percy)
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: interesting gull at Niagara
From: Glenda Slessor <Glenda_Slessor(AT)CHAT.HALTONBE.ON.CA>
Date: 8 Jan 2000 6:01pm
Ontbirders et al
About two weeks ago Willie D'Anna, Betsy Potter and Dean Di Tommaso saw an
interesting large gull with yellow legs on the breakwater north of the
control gates about 2 km above Niagara Falls.
Today, a group of us refound and studied this bird for about 2.5 hours.
This bird is an adult herring gull type but with bright yellow legs. It
fits most of the criteria for Yellow-legged Gull except, and this may be
a significant problem, it has streaking on the crown and brown spotting on
the hind neck. Features which fit for Yellow-legged Gull include:
- the bird was larger than some Herring Gulls and smaller than
others
- mantle was a noticable shade darker than herring ie. like
California
Gull but not as dark as L.f. graellsi
- the bill was bright yellow with a large rectangular red spot
at the
gonys (larger and brighter and of a different shape than Herring Gull)
- the bill was deeper and slightly shorter than HEGU with a
quite flat
gonydial angle
- the irides were bright chrome yellow
- it appeared to have a red orbital ring
- in flight the black on the primaries was extensive and cut
straight
across the wing rather than having tongues of grey extending up the
primary shafts ie. again reminiscent of california Gull
- there was one small white mirror on P10
- three primary tips extended beyond the tail - the effect was
that the
bird was a little stubbier than Herring Gulls.
As Willy said, if we saw this bird in March when it had lost head
streaking, we would call it a Yellow-legged Gull.
Can anyone help us with knowledge about populations of Yellow-legged Gulls
which would retain head streaking this late into the winter?
Observers today were: Ron Pittaway, Kevin McLaughlin, Jean Iron, Gordon
Bellerby, Stan Bajurny, Norm Murr and Bob Curry.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: interesting gull at Niagara
From: "Robert H. Lewis" <lewis(AT)bway.net>
Date: 8 Jan 2000 8:32pm
Glenda Slessor wrote:
> .......
> Today, a group of us refound and studied this bird for about 2.5 hours.
> This bird is an adult herring gull type but with bright yellow legs. It
> fits most of the criteria for Yellow-legged Gull except, and this may be
> a significant problem, it has streaking on the crown and brown spotting on
> the hind neck. Features which fit for Yellow-legged Gull include:
>
> - the bird was larger than some Herring Gulls and smaller than
others
> - mantle was a noticable shade darker than herring ie. like
California
> Gull but not as dark as L.f. graellsi
> - the bill was deeper and slightly shorter than HEGU with a
quite flat
> gonydial angle
> - the irides were bright chrome yellow
> - it appeared to have a red orbital ring
> - in flight the black on the primaries was extensive and cut
straight
> across the wing rather than having tongues of grey extending up the
> primary shafts ie. again reminiscent of california Gull
> - there was one small white mirror on P10
> - three primary tips extended beyond the tail - the effect was
that the
> bird was a little stubbier than Herring Gulls.
>
> As Willy said, if we saw this bird in March when it had lost head
> streaking, we would call it a Yellow-legged Gull.
Did the bird seem to have long legs? Did the bill look sort of
"punched in" at the very front, i.e. the upper mandible dropping sharply
down at the tip? YLGUs often show both of those features. What about
head shape? YLGUs usually have sort of boxy, square cut heads.
Have you conclusively ruled out Lesser Black-backed(L. f. graellsii)?
It sounds from your description that a large male could be as big as
what you describe, and maybe as pale.
Failing that, you might want to think about heuglini. Are any of the
primaries still growing? Also, have a look at the birds on my web pages,
http://www.fordham.edu/lewis/birds/MaxLes/maxles.html and
http://www.fordham.edu/lewis/birds/Jan96/jan96.html
Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY
lewis(AT)bway.net
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