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ID-FRONTIERS for January 9-15, 2000
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Atlantic Yellow-legged Gulls | Robert H. Lewis | Sun, 9 Jan 2000 | 9:50pm |
| origin of banded BH Gull in Fort Worth | Martin Reid | Mon, 10 Jan 2000 | 7:58am |
| feedback on the small, dark Canada Goose | Martin Reid | Mon, 10 Jan 2000 | 8:22am |
| Re: Yukon Hoary Redpolls | Declan Troy | Mon, 10 Jan 2000 | 6:43pm |
| Dunlin identification and taxonomy | P. de Knijff | Tue, 11 Jan 2000 | 8:19am |
| [BIRDWG01) atlantic yellow-legged gulls | Pierre Andre Crochet | Tue, 11 Jan 2000 | 2:40pm |
| vireo versus kinglet | Don Roberson and/or | Tue, 11 Jan 2000 | 9:44pm |
| Small Canada Geese | DJLauten and KACaste | Tue, 11 Jan 2000 | 11:33pm |
| Re: [BIRDWG01) atlantic yellow-legged gulls | Pierre Andre Crochet | Wed, 12 Jan 2000 | 3:22am |
| | Pierre Andre Crochet | Wed, 12 Jan 2000 | 3:48am |
| Atlantic Yellow-legged Gulls | nrossiter | Wed, 12 Jan 2000 | 4:04am |
| YLGulls (what else...) | Pierre Andre Crochet | Wed, 12 Jan 2000 | 5:28am |
| Mystery sparrow, Island Scrub-Jay and winter
Bobolink | Joseph Morlan | Wed, 12 Jan 2000 | 9:07am |
| Banded BHGU in Texas - a minor correction | Martin Reid | Wed, 12 Jan 2000 | 9:18am |
| kumlieni/thayeri razor's edge | Steve Hampton | Wed, 12 Jan 2000 | 2:05pm |
| odd duck | Dave Rintoul | Thu, 13 Jan 2000 | 12:10pm |
| odd duck indeed | paul conover | Thu, 13 Jan 2000 | 3:25pm |
| Re: odd duck | Dave Rintoul | Thu, 13 Jan 2000 | 3:23pm |
| Re: odd duck indeed | Tony Leukering | Thu, 13 Jan 2000 | 4:17pm |
| face pattern of hybrid dabbling ducks | Martin Reid | Fri, 14 Jan 2000 | 5:48am |
| Re: face pattern of hybrid dabbling ducks | Dave Rintoul | Fri, 14 Jan 2000 | 8:02am |
| Re: odd duck indeed | Rob (Robert) Hilton | Fri, 14 Jan 2000 | 8:16am |
| Re: face pattern of hybrid dabbling ducks | Mike Patterson | Fri, 14 Jan 2000 | 8:21am |
| Re: face pattern of hybrid dabbling ducks | Dave Rintoul | Fri, 14 Jan 2000 | 12:54pm |
| Gilham waterfowl hybrid book | Rob (Robert) Hilton | Fri, 14 Jan 2000 | 2:52pm |
| Re: hybrid anatids | Bruce Deuel | Fri, 14 Jan 2000 | 7:35pm |
| Re: Brewer's Duck | Bruce Deuel | Fri, 14 Jan 2000 | 7:35pm |
| Mallard x Gadwall hybrids | Jennifer Hanson | Fri, 14 Jan 2000 | 7:37pm |
| Re: Mallard x Gadwall hybrids | ian paulsen | Fri, 14 Jan 2000 | 9:04pm |
| Re: Mallard x Gadwall hybrids | Paul Winter | Sat, 15 Jan 2000 | 12:59am |
| Re: Mallard x Gadwall hybrids | Joseph Morlan | Sat, 15 Jan 2000 | 2:08am |
| A Very Odd Icterid, Florida | Noel Wamer | Sat, 15 Jan 2000 | 7:00am |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Atlantic Yellow-legged Gulls
From: "Robert H. Lewis" <lewis(AT)bway.net>
Date: 9 Jan 2000 9:50pm
Folks,
Speaking of Yellow-legged Gulls, has everyone seen Nick Rossiter's web
page,
http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/ on Atlantic YLGUs?
The photos and his write up of this form are very interesting to me.
I especially point out the photo "Agadir, Morocco, April 1998, two
adults perched" which is the fourth from the bottom as I write this.
The bird in front, apparently the female, seems to be distinctly lighter
and bluer than the bird behind. I wrote to Nick about that and he
agreed to let me publish our exchange here. My words are preceded by >.
> Agadir, April 1988: The smaller adult in the front, presumably the
> female of a pair, seems to be slightly paler and bluer than the bird in
> the back. Is this true of the original slides?
Yes, it is, and other photos of the two show a similar difference. The blue
sheen is obvious on many birds, particularly the darker ones.
> Setubal, March 1999, flying adult: the underwing really does not look
> very dark at all to me. The darker gray on the under secondaries and
> primaries is restricted to a bar that is toward the basal end of the
> feathers. If I saw this bird fly by, I don't think it would look any
> different from most smithsonianus.
Yes, this bird was quite pale -- probably on the pale side for SW Portugal,
closer to Cantabricans from northern Spain which I think of as Pale Atlantic
Yellow-legged Gull.
> Setubal, March 1999, flying two adults: The upper bird seems to have
> much paler underwings than the lower. How much variation is there in
> this?
Quite a lot, the southern populations tend to have darker underwings and the
Atlantic Iberian (north of Cape Vincent) paler ones but within a population
extremes of darkness and paleness occur. It's interesting that the smaller
bird (presumed female) is paler again. I don't think this is a rule.
> Setubal, March 1999, second year bird: seems to be quite pale and blue
> on the mantle. Is the slide overexposed? Again, I don't see how such
> a mantle could be picked out from smithsonianus.
No, I don't think it's over-exposed. I took a number of shots of this bird
including one in flight. The blue colour is typical of most Atlantic
populations, although in very bright light they can look silvery. I suspect
the blue comes from an argenteus influence. Some people call such blue
birds with yellow legs hybrids but I suspect there are better explanations.
> Have you seen the bird on
> http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/CHYellow/chyellow.html ?
I've just looked at it. Looks a good decision from my experience. It would
still be a good Atlantic YLG even if it had less black on P4/P5. The solid
black triangle is good for YLG and the structure looks right. The small
amount of white on P10 and none on P9 is evidently more typical of the
Azores/Madeira populations but could be found anywhere though I've found
that in SW Portugal 60% have a mirror on P9 and in northern Spain 85% have.
The prominent long wings are interesting.
______________________________________________________
Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY
lewis(AT)bway.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: origin of banded BH Gull in Fort Worth
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)CYBERRAMP.NET>
Date: 10 Jan 2000 7:58am
Dear all,
Recently I was able to read in the field all the data on the band of a
Black-headed Gull that is still present (seen Jan 9, 2000) on the east side
of Fort Worth, Texas. I have just received the origin data:
It was banded as a chick in the nest at Hameenkyro, Hame, Finland (c. 100
miles NW of Helsinki) on June 29, 1996 by Asko Puro.
Its known presence in the New World is as follows:
March 1 - 21, 1998 at Village Creek Water Treatment Facilify, Fort Worth
(VCWTF)
Feb 2 - 28, 1999 at VCWTF
Dec 24, 1999 - present (Jan 9, 2000) at VCWTF
Photos of this bird are viewable at:
http://www.martinreid.com/gmixp01.html
and
http://members.tripod.com/~tbrc/bhgull2.htm
This is the first record of a Finnish-banded bird from the USA (the only
other Finnish record from North America is of a Ruff in Newfoundland in
1976; also, there are a couple of Parasitic Jeagers and a "Comic" tern from
N.E. South America).
Other gulls nesting in the same area include Common Gull (Larus canus
canus), Baltic Gull (L. fuscus fuscus) and Scandinavian Herring Gull (L.
argentatus argentatus); about 500 miles NE from here, Siberian Gull (Larus
(?) heuglini) breeds in the SW corner of the Kola Peninsula, Russia.
This record establishes a benchmark for the occurance in south-central USA
of migratory gulls from central-eastern Scandinavia, and suggests that the
occurance of other forms (especially the strongly migratory fuscus and
heuglini) is not that remote. I encourage everyone who sees dark-backed,
yellow-legged large gulls to keep this in mind (with due caution, of
course) and to document any individuals that are not obviously Lesser
Black-backed Gull (Larus (fuscus) graellsii/intermedius).
Good Birding,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com or http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: feedback on the small, dark Canada Goose
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)CYBERRAMP.NET>
Date: 10 Jan 2000 8:22am
Dear all,
I have added to the original web page
(http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa/cago.html ) all the feedback I have
thus-far received on the small, dark CAGO near Dallas, Texas. More
informed comment is welcomed.
Good birding,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com or http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Yukon Hoary Redpolls
From: Declan Troy <declan(AT)ALASKA.NET>
Date: 10 Jan 2000 6:43pm
It may be of historical interest to some that the original description of
exilipes (Coues 1861) does not indicate these "modern" characters in
differentiating "Hoary" and "Common" redpolls. Coues noted the white rump,
paucity of streaking, rosy breast tinge, and white undertail coverts but
observed that exilipes was subject to much greater variation than any other
species in the genus. The main distinguishing feature of exilipes was small
feet (hence exilipes); the lenght of the middle toe with claw being shorter
than the tarsus. Coues mentioned that variability in claw length would
cause some birds to be misidentified, thus, from the first description
there was no way to unambiguously identify exilipes.
At the time of the description of exilipes Coues recognized 7 species of
redpolls (6 in North America). Later (1869, 1874) he merged them all into a
single species but subsequently (1903) recognized 2 species linarius and
hornemanni.
Declan Troy
Anchorage, AK
declan(AT)alaska.net
At 03:19 PM 1/5/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Redpoll identification is a favourite Yukon winter pastime. In southern
>Yukon, the ratio of Hoaries to Commons tends to be about 1:100. I've posted
>a composite photo of Hoary Redpolls Carduelis hornemanni exilipes (all
>photographed in Whitehorse) at the Yukon Bird Club web site:
>
>http://www.yukonweb.com/community/ybc/ybc_bird.jpg
>
>Features for distinguishing the frosty redpoll from its more common cousin
>include:
>
>1) Very little breast streaking.
>2) White rump with no streaks.
>3) White undertail with very limited (or no) thin streaks.
>4) White edges to tertials and coverts.
>5) Overall frosted (white) look to head.
>6) The red poll tends to be brighter red.
>7) A wash of pink (not red) on breast of some birds.
>8) Some birds show pale peach wash around face.
>9) Shorter stubbier bill.
>10) Pale streak along scapulars.
>11) Tend to look slightly larger than Commons.
>12) Tend to cock their tails more than Commons.
>13) Tend to have "bushier leggings" than Commons.
>
>Good luck with the Hoaries!
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Cameron Eckert
>Whitehorse, Yukon
>
>Yukon Bird Club
>Awareness ~ Appreciation ~ Conservation
>http://www.yukonweb.com/community/ybc/
>
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Dunlin identification and taxonomy
From: "P. de Knijff" <knijff(AT)ruly46.medfac.leidenuniv.nl>
Date: 11 Jan 2000 8:19am
For a forthcoming paper on the identification and taxonomic status of
Dunlin subspecies I am looking for high quality colour slides of
Dunlins in breeding plumage, males and females, taken in the breeding
area.
Photographs from birds throughout the entire breeding range are welcome,
but especially those from remote places such as western Alaska,
north-eastern Alaska, Greenland, central Siberia, Sakhalin and Kamchatka,
etc. are needed.
Please indicate as accurate as possible where and when slides have been
made. Please pack them carefully before sending. Do not forget to indicate
to which address they have to be returned. All slides will be returned as
soon as a final selection has been made and the selected slides have been
digitally scanned.
Depending on the journal in which the manuscript will be published, a
small fee per published slide could be available. In any case, all
contributions will be acknowledged.
Please send all slides to:
Peter de Knijff
Keersluis 34
2408 PL Alphen aan den Rijn
The Netherlands
In case one wants to be sure that a slide could be of use for me, a
digital scan of the slide, preferably in a format which can be read by
Corel and Microsoft graphical packages, can be forwarded to me as an
attached file by e-mail to:
knijff(AT)ruly46.medfac.leidenuniv.nl
Being a photographer myself I know the awkward feeling of slides getting
lost in the mail (there surely most be a huge archive somewhere).
Therefore, all slides will be treated as my own. However, I can not be
held responsible for any material lost or damaged by mail, either send to
me or send by me.
Finally, any bird illustrator interested in this project can contact me as
well.
Responses by e-mail please to my account listed above
Many thanks in advance for your assistance,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter de Knijff, PhD
Forensic Laboratory for DNA Research
MGC-Department of Human and Clinical Genetics
Leiden University Medical Center
POBox 9503
2300 RA Leiden
The Netherlands
phone: +31 71 527 4318 (secr) / 1583 (direct)
fax: +31 71 527 4517
Y-STR home-page: http://ruly70.medfac.leidenuniv.nl/~fldo/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: [BIRDWG01) atlantic yellow-legged gulls
From: Pierre Andre Crochet <pierre_andre.crochet(AT)EVOLUTION.UU.SE>
Date: 11 Jan 2000 2:40pm
Dear all,
I thought it might be worth commenting again on the matter of the atlantic
yellow-legged gulls.
Under this name are grouped populations of Larus michahellis which breed along
the atlantic coasts of Morocco, Spain and Portugal, and in the western atlantic
islands. But these different populations have quite different characteristics,
and to group the birds from Agadir with those from Portugal have little meaning.
From my (still unpublished) genetic results, birds from Agadir and birds from
the western Iberia (Peniche = Berlengas islands and Ons islands) are the most
distantly related. Birds from the mediterranean are in between, closer to the
birds from W iberia.
In terms of past history/ongoing gene flow, southern Morocco and W Iberia have
thus no reason to be treated as a group distinct from Med birds.
In terms of morphology and plumage: this is more tentative, but we are working
on it using colorimetry to quantify differences in plumage tones / darkness, and
morphometry, and of course wing tip pattern. No result yet.
Based on personal field experience and pictures:
birds from Canary and Madera mainly stand out as being small and with a short
and stubby bill. Plumage is actually very similar to Med birds but the
proportion of birds with dark wing tip (only one mirror on P10, small) is much
higher. They are probably darker also, but I was not really struck by this in
the Canaries...Birds in the Med area can also look dark sometimes.
birds from southern Morocco are very like Med birds is shape and size (judged
from field impression on the Essaouira colony). The proportion of birds with
only one mirror on P10 is again higher than in the Med.
concerning the proportion of black on the wing tip, there does not seem to be
obvious difference between Med birds and Morocco birds.
birds from W iberia are small (usually smaller then LBBG) but very like Med
birds.
birds from northern Iberia are special: they have a very steaked head in winter
(at least until January/February), with frequently rufous spotting on the
hindneck, like argentatus. WE don't know how far these special birds extend
westward along the northern coast of Spain. We are working on it. All comments
welcome! I have been able to study these W birds along with Med birds in winter
in the Basque country: we (a friend was with me) could not detect any difference
in plumage tones. In summer, I thought these birds were a bit paler, but that
was not obvious.
BUT, except for the Canary Madera birds with their short and deep bill, a single
individual form any of these populations in breeding plumage can not be
separated from a Med birds. Differences are small, they concern proportion of
birds having particular pattern (such as only one mirror on P10) but even birds
in the Med can show this can frequently.
For the identification of YLG, the consequences of this are that variation in
size and structure among YLG are quite large, and a small Canary bird and a
large Camargue bird really look different! The other consequence is that obvious
head and neck streaking in mid winter on a supposed YLG is not at all unusual
if it comes from the northern Iberia populations (which are very sedentary,
unfortunately).
Last, I was not able to detect much gene flow between YLG in the W Iberia and
Herring gull. More gene flow seems to have occurred with LBBG. I would be
surprised if introgression with HG was responsible of the head and neck
streaking of northern Iberia YLG. A more likely explanation is that they both
winter in humid, atlantic climate (as graellsii, which also show extensive head
and neck streaking).
Hope this helps a little and sorry for the poor english
Pierre-Andre Crochet
Dept. of Animal Ecology
Evolutionary Biology Center
Norbyvägen 18D
S-752 36 Uppsala
Sweden
Tel . 018 471 64 85 or 46 18 471 64 85 from abroad
Mobile: 070 241 72 38 or 00 46 70 241 72 38 from abroad
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: vireo versus kinglet
From: Don Roberson and/or Rita Carratello <creagrus(AT)MONTEREYBAY.COM>
Date: 11 Jan 2000 9:44pm
Fooling around with learning PhotoShop, I've put up a new "virtual field
guide" identification page on Hutton's Vireo vs. Ruby-crowned Kinglet. This
problem will be "old hat" to the Frontiers chat group, but at least its not
gulls and I'm interested in comments on either the substance or the format in
which the info is presented. I'm trying to find a happy medium between Mac and
PC layout so it doesn't look so different one from another .... For MBBers and
Calbirders, maybe there will even be something of interest. Who knows?
[Amazingly, we still get summer claims of the kinglet in Monterey whose
details show a lack of understanding the concepts.]
So try http://montereybay.com/creagrus/HUVI-v-RCKI.html
Additional family pages have been added to the "Bird Families of the World"
project and you can always see what's available at
http://montereybay.com/creagrus/list.html
or find a list of the newest additions to anything on the site at
http://montereybay.com/creagrus/new.html
Cheers for the New Millenium!
Don Roberson
Pacific Grove CA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Small Canada Geese
From: DJLauten and KACastelein <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 11 Jan 2000 11:33pm
Folks,
Martin Reid was talking about a small Canada Goose in Texas the other day.
I thought I'd forward the below which came over Oregon Birders On Line.
The author is a USFWS employee working with small Canada's out here (we got
lots of them!). Might be of help?
Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com
> Subject: Re: Possible Aleutian Canada Goose near Ankeny
>
>
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> The odds of an Aleutian being near Ankeny in the winter are pretty
> good, but because the numbers are so low, the odds of seeing one are
> not nearly as good. For the last decade or so there have been
winter
> period sightings of Aleutians in the Willamette Valley; in fact,
based
> on resightings of marked birds, some appear to remain in the valley
> for the entire winter. The three Willamette Valley National
Wildlife
> Refuges (Ankeny, Baskett and Finley) are probably the best bets for
> seeing an Aleutian.
>
> As for I.D. of B.c. leucopareia, the key most birders hear about and
> look for is the white neck ring. Unfortunately, every subspecies of
> Canada goose in the Willamette Valley can show a white neck ring. A
> relatively high percentage of cackling Canada geese (B.c. minima)
have
> white neck rings, some of which are spectacular. Here are a few
keys
> to watch for when searching for Aleutians:
>
> 1. A complete white neck ring SUBTENDED BY A BAND OF DARK FEATHERS
> ABOUT 1/2" WIDE. When you look at the neck of an Aleutian, you will
> see a white ring (varies from 1/4" to 1.5" wide), and beginning at
the
> bottom border of the white neck ring you will see what is
essentially
> a dark neck "ring" -- it's more of a band than a ring, because it
may
> not extend all the way around the neck. This dark band will be
> noticeably darker than the field color of the upper breast which
> begins under the dark band. The National Geographic Field Guide
shows
> this character quite well.
>
> 2. Narrow cheek patches that don't quite meet under the chin. When
> the bird is grazing, you will usually see a definite line of dark
> feathers separating the cheek patches under the chin. This is not
the
> case with B.c. minima, which usually have wide cheek patches which
> extend unbroken from one cheek to the other under the chin. Some
> Aleutians have wider cheek patches than others, but I don't think
> there would be much overlap in cheek patch widths between minima and
> leucopareia.
>
> 3. Flat heads. Cacklers usually have very rounded heads with a
> gradual curved transition from the forehead to the top of the head,
> while the foreheads of Aleutians tend to appear quite steep, with an
> abrupt transition at the top of the forehead as the head flattens
out.
> The reason is that Aleutians live and forage for a large percentage
of
> their lives in marine environments, where they ingest a large amount
> of salt. As a result, they have developed large salt excreting
> glands, which are located right at the top front of the head. This
> gland fills up the area of the forehead that shows as a nice gradual
> curve in other Canada geese.
>
> 4. A "leggy" look. The tarsus lengths of Aleutians compared to
their
> body size is much greater than for minima. Aleutians also have
> noticeably longer necks than Cacklers.
>
> Good luck. And if you see any marked Aleutians (blue, green or gray
> neck collars about 1.25" high, or tarsus bands of various colors)
I'd
> like to hear about the sighting -- where, when, marker codes, etc.
>
> Thanks, and good luck.
>
>
> Dave Pitkin
> Wildlife Biologist
> Oregon Coast NWR Complex
> 541 867-4550
>
> ______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>
>
> Today around 11:30 am Doug Robberson and I were part of a group that was
> scoping out a large flock of Canada Geese on Riverside Drive across from
> Ankeny Vineyards. We saw what we believe might be an Aleutian Canada
Goose
> (Branta canadensis leucopareia) in the flock. The suspect was
> distinguished by a white neck band, light breast and short bill. We did
> not see a neck band or leg band. Doug, were there any other identifying
> characteristics that you recall?
>
> In trying to distinguish an Aleutian from other subspecies we noticed the
> white cheek patch. The bird we saw had a large white cheek patch similar
> to the hutchinsii and minima pictured in the National Geographic guide.
> The cheek patch on the leucopareia in the N.G. Guide looks narrower. Is
> the cheek patch size a reliable field mark?
>
> A year ago (1/2/99) Jon. Anderson reported on OBOL seeing an Aleutian
near
> Ankeny. Jon, do you recall the location of the bird you saw?
>
> Birds of Oregon (Gilligan et al.) says that the Aleutians are "rare
> transients, and local winter visitants, along the coast." It also says
> that there is a flock of 200 birds that winter near Pacific City with
> characteristics intermediate between lessers and Aleutians, some of which
> were banded on Semidi Island in the Aleutians. What are the odds of an
> Aleutian near Ankeny in winter?
>
>
> Brian Wegener
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01) atlantic yellow-legged gulls
From: Pierre Andre Crochet <pierre_andre.crochet(AT)EVOLUTION.UU.SE>
Date: 12 Jan 2000 3:22am
Dear Ron,
I have no ideas about the glaucoides/thayeri/kumlieni complex.
As a guess based on what is published of morphological variation in this group,
I'd say glaucoides and kumlieni are certainly conspecific, and thayeri is likely
to be another species (there seem to be little overlap in morphological
characters in adults thayeri versus glaucoides/kumlieni). The fact that
immatures can be so hard to separate is not an argument. Argentatus and
michahellis, or michahellis and graellsii, can be just as impossible to identify
as first winter, and nobody claim there are the same species.
Re genetic variation: I sequenced mtDNA in just one glaucoides, one thayeri and
one kumlieni. They all had different haplotypes. glaucoides and kumlieni were
very close, but thayeri was quite distinct, and closer to hyperboreus. This is
in agreement with the above hypothesis.
But the amount of variation was low, so not much confidence should be put on
this.
What this suggests is that it is possible to use genetic to study this complex,
since there is variation, but you need large samples of each form, which I don't
have and to my knowledge nobody has.
All the best,
Pierre
PS I'm forwarding this to the list also.
Pierre-Andre Crochet
Dept. of Animal Ecology
Evolutionary Biology Center
Norbyvägen 18D
S-752 36 Uppsala
Sweden
Tel . 018 471 64 85 or 46 18 471 64 85 from abroad
Mobile: 070 241 72 38 or 00 46 70 241 72 38 from abroad
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Iron [SMTP:jeaniron(AT)globedirect.com]
Sent: den 11 januari 2000 23:38
To: Pierre Andre Crochet
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] [BIRDWG01) atlantic yellow-legged gulls
Cher Pierre Andre,
Very interesting stuff. Is anyone doing genetic studies on
glaucoides/kumlieni/thayeri? What are your thoughts on this complex?
Warm regards,
Ron Pittaway
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject:
From: Pierre Andre Crochet <pierre_andre.crochet(AT)EVOLUTION.UU.SE>
Date: 12 Jan 2000 3:48am
P A Buckley asked me some precisions. Since they could be of interest to those
who are still interested in gulls (seems that some of you are), here the
answers.
"Which if any of the 'populations' you alluded to in your email refer to
'_cantabricus_' or to '_lusitanicus_' --- if one is permitted to use those
_nomina nuda_ ?"
First, lusitanicus is not a nomen nuda. Contra what I have said before on
EBN...
I asked some specialists of nomenclature and read the International Code of
Zoological Nomenclature again, and lusitanicus is a perfectly valid name. It was
published in a journal, and contains a minimal diagnosis. So it is valid. It is
an extremely bad piece of work, but the name is valid. The idea according to
which a name is only valid if a type is designated and deposed in a collection
is absolutely wrong. New editions of the code will may be include this, but at
the moment it is not the case.
Now, what about the validity of the taxon. For me, lusitanicus is a synonym of
michahellis. It was described from birds seen at Peniche, which is the harbour
close to the huge colonies of the Berlengas islands (Portugal). This place is on
the central/southern coast of Portugal, quite far from the northern Iberia
populations of YLG. Birds in Peniche (I have seen them is September 95) look
just like small Med birds. There is a clinal size variation form the largest
michahellis (Camargue) to the smallest (Atlantic) but nothing enough to justify
a subspecies. The Atlantic birds also moult latter, which is not surprising as
they breed at least one month latter. All this certainly related to the timing
of food availability. Until I'm proved wrong, I consider lusitanicus as a junior
synonym of michahellis.
Second, cantabricus.
To my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong) this name has never been
published. It thus does not exist.
The birds from northern Spain (Cantabrican gulls) may well warrant subspecific
status. If this is the case, they should be described as a new subspecies. The
name to be applied to them will be chosen by the person describing them. It
could be cantabricus, but it could be anything else.
"I also assume your post was in response to the description of the putative YLG
on the Niagara River. My reaction on reading it was, Why ISN'T it a YLG? That
description was really quite excellent. Among the many _michahellis_ and few
_cachinnans_ I saw in Grado, Italy, in November, there were more than a few with
some head streaking, and I spent MUCH time studying them. Has too much
emphasis been placed on this as a useful field character? It seems to me
anything BUT 'all-or-nothing.'"
Michahellis from the Mediterranean area always show some head streaking,
sometimes as extensive as typical herring gull (but usually much less extensive)
in end of summer / autumn. BUT their streaks disappear early in winter. I
could not find an adult birds with head streaks last Xmas in France. I'd say by
December (my field notes are not with me so this is not a strong statement)
adult michahellis in the Med area should have white heads. But again, they ALL
show streaked head after the breeding season.
So the presence of steaks on the head is a usefull field mark in winter, but in
a Northern European context, where most (all for the Baltic area ) michahellis
seen come from the Med area. I'd say in North America many of the YLG could come
from the Atlantic populations, which moult latter and should thus keep a
streaked head latter. And if you consider the possibility of vagrancy by the
Cantabrican gulls, you have to admit that some YLG can show a head pattern like
argentatus/argenteus in February.
Pierre-Andre Crochet
Dept. of Animal Ecology
Evolutionary Biology Center
Norbyvägen 18D
S-752 36 Uppsala
Sweden
Tel . 018 471 64 85 or 46 18 471 64 85 from abroad
Mobile: 070 241 72 38 or 00 46 70 241 72 38 from abroad
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Atlantic Yellow-legged Gulls
From: nrossiter <nrossiter(AT)NETLINEUK.NET>
Date: 12 Jan 2000 4:04am
It is disappointing that Pierre Andre Crochet and myself have come to
different conclusions concerning the grouping of the various populations of
YLG on the Atlantic coasts. The purpose of my web page is to show through
photographs how similar the forms are to each other and I'm not sure that
they have been looked at as critically as I would have liked. For instance
the Faro (Portugal) bird is surely very close to the Santa Cruz (Canaries)
one and the Setubal (Portugal) 2nd-summer to the Los Cristianos (Canaries)
birds. They have more affinity to each other than to Mediterranean birds. On
the basis of an analysis of plumage, size, structure and calls, I consider
the forms to be similar and I see no reason to change these views on the
evidence presented.
A number of technical points:
1, Atlantic Spain was not included in the Dark Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull
range as was claimed. I clearly state in my account that this is another
story.
2. My sizes come from comparison with graellsii, using them as a 'gold
standard' to compare sizes across a wide area. The Canary birds are not as
small as is often thought. They look small in isolation, perhaps because
some are quite elegant, but look significantly larger than LBBG in direct
comparison. The south Morocco birds are only slightly larger than graellsii,
hence perhaps slightly smaller than the Canary ones and the Portuguese
average slightly larger than graellsii with about 5% actually smaller. Look
at the biometrics in BWP, Birds of Africa and Dwight which support my
findings. Birds of Gambia (Barlow) is also useful reading. Note that NW
Africa birds are very similar to Canary ones in biometrics which is not
surprising as Fuerteventura is under 100 miles from the Moroccan coast.
3. It is stated that "birds from W Iberia are small (usually smaller then
LBBG) but very like Med birds". This appears to be a very superficial
statement. True on mantle shade and on proportion with mirror on P9 (50%
from my studies) but false on structure (rounded head, short legs, P10/P9
similar length) and calls. Further the similarities may not be due to Med
YLG. On the cline of gradually decreasing mantle shade on the Atlantic from
S to N, inevitably at some stage a cross-over with Med YLG will occur and
this happens in SW Portugal. There is also a tendency for more white in the
wingtip once Cap Vincent is passed going N and this becomes much more
noticeable in Northern Iberia. Indeed some birds in SW Portugal are in
transition to the northern Iberia form as witness my photo of a bird in
flight at Setubal which shows very much reduced black in the wingtip
including virtually no marking on P5. The biometrics for W Iberian birds in
BWP are close to those for argenteus (interesting in itself) casting doubt
on the claim that W Iberian birds are usually smaller than LBBG.
4. From my experience, it is not possible to separate the Fuerteventura and
Agadir adults on any property. This casts doubt on the concept of atlantis
as currently defined. For instance on wing-tip, proportions with mirror on
P9 are 25, 40 and 35 for Tenerife, Fuerteventura and Agadir resp. Sizes are
covered above.
5. We have some agreement! It was said:
>A single individual from any of these populations in breeding plumage can
>not be separated from a Med birds. Differences are small, they concern
>proportion of birds having particular pattern (such as only one mirror on
P10)
>but even birds in the Med can show this can frequently.
>For the identification of YLG, the consequences of this are that variation
>in size and structure among YLG are quite large, and a small Canary bird
and a
>large Camargue bird really look different!
First, yes, the definition for YLG in the wider sense needs to be broadened.
Also, I agree that the differences between Med and Atlantic forms are indeed
at present only 100% reliable at the population rather than the individual
level (but they extend to much more than patterns on P9/P10 and again the
Canary birds are not a good example of extreme smallness). Within each
Atlantic population, in the breeding season, 5-10% of the birds are more
like Med YLG in size and structure and a minority of the Med YLG are like
the Atlantic birds. But surely the whole point of advancing gull
identification is to look very closely at these awkward birds to see if any
constant features do exist.
In this respect, two features of Med YLG are fascinating. On full-winged
birds is P10 always clearly longer than P9 giving five evenly spaced white
spots (P10-P6) on the folded wing? Do the long calls always have a guttural
flavour (somewhat like marinus) as indicated by BWP, Dwight, Vinnicombe and
my own observations? Any comments would be very welcome.
Finally a quote from Lars Jonsson (Alula, 1998): birds breeding on the
Atlantic coast of the Iberian peninsula and Morocco stand morphologically
closer to atlantis and are better treated as such. Best wishes ...
Nick Rossiter
West Barn, Ordley,
Hexham, Northumberland
England NE46 1SX
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: YLGulls (what else...)
From: Pierre Andre Crochet <pierre_andre.crochet(AT)EVOLUTION.UU.SE>
Date: 12 Jan 2000 5:28am
Thanks a lot to Nick for his comments. He obviously has a lot of very useful
information.
I would like to answer some of his points.
First, it is not disappointing that we have different opinions. It's more
exciting than distressing to me.
1, Atlantic Spain was not included in the Dark Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull range
as was claimed. I clearly state in my account that this is another story.
Ok
2. My sizes come from comparison with graellsii, using them as a 'gold
standard' to compare sizes across a wide area. The Canary birds are not as small
as is often thought. They look small in isolation, perhaps because some are
quite elegant, but look significantly larger than LBBG in direct comparison. The
south Morocco birds are only slightly larger than graellsii, hence perhaps
slightly smaller than the Canary ones and the Portuguese average slightly larger
than graellsii with about 5% actually smaller. Look at the biometrics in BWP,
Birds of Africa and Dwight which support my findings. Birds of Gambia (Barlow)
is also useful reading. Note that NW Africa birds are very similar to Canary
ones in biometrics which is not surprising as Fuerteventura is under 100 miles
from the Moroccan coast.
I totally agree that Atlantic birds are small as a rule compared to Med birds.
As I stated, there is a clinal variation in size from the largest (Camargue)
birds to the smallest (Atlantic birds) with the southern Med birds intermediate.
3. It is stated that "birds from W Iberia are small (usually smaller then
LBBG) but very like Med birds". This appears to be a very superficial statement.
True on mantle shade and on proportion with mirror on P9 (50% from my studies)
but false on structure (rounded head, short legs, P10/P9 similar length) and
calls. Further the similarities may not be due to Med YLG. On the cline of
gradually decreasing mantle shade on the Atlantic from S to N, inevitably at
some stage a cross-over with Med YLG will occur and this happens in SW Portugal.
There is also a tendency for more white in the wingtip once Cap Vincent is
passed going N and this becomes much more noticeable in Northern Iberia. Indeed
some birds in SW Portugal are in transition to the northern Iberia form as
witness my photo of a bird in flight at Setubal which shows very much reduced
black in the wingtip including virtually no marking on P5. The biometrics for W
Iberian birds in BWP are close to those for argenteus (interesting in itself)
casting doubt on the claim that W Iberian birds are u!
sually smaller than LBBG.
Thanks for correcting my statement that W Iberia birds are smaller than LBBG.
What I meant is that when you look at Med birds and LBBG, the LBBG are nearly
always the smallest birds in the flock. This is not true with birds from W
Iberia, which are often smaller than the average LBBG. But I should not have
said "usually".
Back to structure: I am often struck by the special head and bill shape of birds
from the Canary. I am not stuck by a special structure in birds from southern
Morocco or Portugal. Remember they are smaller. A small female Med YLG and a
large male look also different. For me, the main difference is size. It remains
to be shown that similar sized birds from Portugal and the Med have different
structure for me. But this may be a result of my inability to assess subtle
structure differences. I hope biometry will help us here.
I must say I have to go back to pictures and the field before I can comment
about the relative length of P10 and P9
Stating that birds from Portugal are closer phenotypically to Med birds than to
Canary birds is more a matter of balancing the information available, but I
maintain this statement. This is also true of first winter birds. While a lot of
juv and first winter birds from the Canary have very dark upperparts and a lot
of dark on the tail, birds from Portugal are I think more typical of YLG.
Regarding calls, I would not be surprised in larger birds had deeper calls.
4 From my experience, it is not possible to separate the Fuerteventura and
Agadir adults on any property. This casts doubt on the concept of atlantis as
currently defined. For instance on wing-tip, proportions with mirror on P9 are
25, 40 and 35 for Tenerife, Fuerteventura and Agadir resp. Sizes are covered
above.
From my experience the Agadir birds never show the short and deep bill of some
Canary birds. I might prove to be wrong of course.
I totally agree with the remark on atlantis. In his unpublished thesis on YLG,
Pierre Beaubrun stated that there is a cline in variation from the Camargue to
the Canaries, with birds from Agadir intermediate. True atlantis would,
according to him, be restricted to the Azores.
Final remark: it's interesting to comment on internet, but what's more
interesting would be to publish some hard stuff.
JM Pons from the Paris museum is currently working on this, examining museum
specimens and sampling on breeding colonies. He will look at plumage tones, wing
tip pattern and biometry. Having large samples from a wide area will give us
hard and objective evidence to describe variation in this species.
But we should not forget that this variation is gradual, because none of these
populations are isolated, and limited.
After all, a large, dark, pale winged, yellow legged argentatus and a small,
pale, dark winged, pink legged argenteus are much more different than any two
YLG, at least for me. So I don't really understand the excitement around
variation in YLG...
Pierre-Andre Crochet
Dept. of Animal Ecology
Evolutionary Biology Center
Norbyvägen 18D
S-752 36 Uppsala
Sweden
Tel . 018 471 64 85 or 46 18 471 64 85 from abroad
Mobile: 070 241 72 38 or 00 46 70 241 72 38 from abroad
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Mystery sparrow, Island Scrub-Jay and winter
Bobolink
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)SLIP.NET>
Date: 12 Jan 2000 9:07am
ID Frontiers,
I have updated my web site with two new mystery birds, a tanager
and a controversial "sparrow." The sparrow has caused considerable
dissension and we clearly need help.
Answers to last month's mystery jay and wren have been posted
including a proposed new field mark for Island Scrub-Jay.
The Recent Rarities section has new descriptions of Blue Mockingbird
(with photos by Joel Weintraub), and Common Grackle. Recent additions
to the photo gallery include a winter Bobolink from Washington State
(contributed by Ruth Sullivan). Are there other winter Bobolink
records in North America?
The URL is
http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/rare.htm
Enjoy!
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044: mailto:jmorlan(AT)slip.net
Birding Classes begin Feb 8 in SF: http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee: http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/
AOL Instant Messenger Screen Name: aim:addbuddy?screenname=Joe+Morlan
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Banded BHGU in Texas - a minor correction
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)CYBERRAMP.NET>
Date: 12 Jan 2000 9:18am
Dear all,
The Finnish-banded Black-headed Gull in Fort Worth was not banded as a
chick in the nest, but instead as a "young out of nest" - my apologies for
the error.
Good birding,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com or http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: kumlieni/thayeri razor's edge
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 12 Jan 2000 2:05pm
Yesterday I delivered a specimen of an apparent Kumlien's Gull to the Calif
Birds Record Committee (CBRC), as they wanted to have it on hand to discuss it
and other records of presumed kumlieni in Calif. I was able to take some photos
of the specimen and have posted them at:
http://www.west.net/~dj/glku_d.htm
This is the infamous Moss Landing bird, collected in 1975. This bird is
well-traveled, having been taken to the east and compared with other specimens
there (where it was declared a kumlien's). However, it does have solid
tertials, nearly solid auriculars, and very worn primaries that do have some
brown wash to them.
I know few want to draw the line between pure and not-so-pure kumlieni, but the
CBRC is apparently about to face that task. What criteria would you use? I've
heard tertials mentioned ¯ but then Bruce Mactavish just said (in discussion of
the Norway bird) that he sees solid areas on the tertials of Icelands regularly.
You can comment via the website if you'd like and I'll post the answers on the
webpage.
By the way, we also have a new quiz bird up (quiz 7 answer also posted) and have
begun adding range maps.
all for now,
Steve Hampton, Ph.D.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: odd duck
From: Dave Rintoul <drintoul(AT)ksu.edu>
Date: 13 Jan 2000 12:10pm
Greetings
A local birder called me yesterday to report the sighting of a very odd
duck.
This dabbling duck is smaller than a mallard and larger than a green-winged
teal, has a black bill, orange feet, green speculum with a trailing white
edge, mostly green head with a reddish crown and one lighter crescent-shaped
patch on the cheek, body is mostly pale grayish-white, wings brown, tail
black. The chest is reddish-brown but much paler than the chest of a male
mallard, and the extent of reddish color is much smaller. It was hanging out
with a bunch of mallards, gadwalls, and one male pintail in the north
shallow cove of a local fishing lake
The best diagnosis currently available is that this is a hybrid between a
mallard and a Baikal Teal (Anas formosa). I was able to get some pictures
yesterday afternoon, in feeding, swimming and flying postures, but since
these
are Kodachrome slides it will be a week or two before they are processed. If
any of them are any good I will scan them and put them on our local Audubon
website for your perusal.
The bird is still there this morning apparently. It certainly is not a bird
that you can tick off on any checklist, but it is quite spectacular. I
would be interested to know if there are any places that collect hybrid duck
documentation and/or pictures.
Cheers
Dave
Dave Rintoul, Ph.D. mailto:drintoul(AT)ksu.edu
Biology Division - KSU ICBM: 39.18N, 96.34W
Manhattan KS 66506-4901 VOX: 785-532-6663
http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~drintoul/ FAX: 785-532-6653
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: odd duck indeed
From: paul conover <conover(AT)TALSTAR.COM>
Date: 13 Jan 2000 3:25pm
for what it's worth, i hastily posted a comparison of a hybrid duck of
semi-unknown parentage from american birds [vol 44, no. 3; written of as a
green-winged teal x ?] with a very similar duck found on the sabine cbc in
louisiana last month.
the wing of the louisiana bird, as well as bill shape, makes blue-winged
teal seem the logical choice for the other parent.
http://www.talstar.com/users/conover/duck.html
paul conover
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: odd duck
From: Dave Rintoul <drintoul(AT)ksu.edu>
Date: 13 Jan 2000 3:23pm
Greetings
I have gotten a couple of comments re the theoretical parentage of the odd
duck here in NE Kansas. One correspondent indicated that it could be a
cinnamon X blue-winged teal hybrid. I guess so, but the dominant impression
of this bird from a distance is that it is a mini-mallard. Dark head, pale
body, typical mallard butt, rufous chest etc. And the bright orange legs
indicate, to me at least, that mallard has to be considered as one of the
parents; I don't think any of the teal have legs that color! And blue-winged
teal could be considered, but that makes it difficult to explain the rufous
crown on the head and the green speculum. Perhaps this duck has three
parents...
When I get the pictures you can look at them and speculate for yourselves on
the possible parentage; I will be very interested to hear the comments. That
said, I hope that the pictures come out OK!
Another correspondent asked if the bird resembled a duck apparently seen on
the Sabine NWR CBC this winter (?), pictures of which are at the URL
http://www.talstar.com/users/conover/duck.html
But it doesn't look like that duck at all. It is much more striking :-)
Cheers, and thanks for the input.
Dave
Dave Rintoul, Ph.D. mailto:drintoul(AT)ksu.edu
Biology Division - KSU ICBM: 39.18N, 96.34W
Manhattan KS 66506-4901 VOX: 785-532-6663
http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~drintoul/ FAX: 785-532-6653
"When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve." M. Decker, 1999
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: odd duck indeed
From: Tony Leukering <GreatGrayO(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 13 Jan 2000 4:17pm
Hi all:
I would agree that this odd teal looks like it ought to be a Blue-winged x
Green-winged Teal hybrid. In my experience with hybrid dabblers (in the past
two years: Mallard x Eur. Wigeon, Mallard x Gadwall, N. Pintail x N. Shoveler
- all in CO), head pattern has seemed to be very plastic - often including
colors in patches that are not explainable by looking at the plumage of the
putative parent species. I have pix of the former two hybrids that both show
these obvious pale patches on the head.
So, I would say that the beast of Paul's has the body shape of a BWTE and at
least the vague vertical white stripe of a GWTE. Any other comments,
refutations, etc.?
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: face pattern of hybrid dabbling ducks
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)CYBERRAMP.NET>
Date: 14 Jan 2000 5:48am
Dear all,
I have read with interest the details of the presumed hybrid ducks, and
also enjoyed looking at the images. Tony Leukering mentioned how plastic
is the potential face pattern of such hybrids, and I offer the following
snippets to ponder:
Years back in Britain a bird was reported as a imm. male Baikal Teal (due
largely to the face pattern), causing a rather large "twitch", yet with
close examination, the bird showed a number of features inconsistent with
Baikal, and instead pointed to a probable Common Teal x Northern Pintail
ancestry.
In BIRDING WORLD Volume 12 number 9, a letter from Jon King (page 344)
reports on the study of dabbling ducks using analysis of DNA based upon two
different gene sequences. To summarize, this study found that Baikal Teal
was so distant from all other dabblers that it represented a monotypic
clade, with the other three groups being the blue-winged ducks (Cinnammon
and Blue-winged Teals plus shoveler), four genera restricted to South
America, and all the rest (i.e. wigeon, teal, mallard-types, Pintail, etc).
An intriguing speculation from this is that Baikal Teal may be much closer
in plumage to the ancestral duck of all the groups (having diverged from it
much earlier and then remaining mostly unchanged), and thus hybridization
within and between the clades causes some form of the ancestral face
pattern to appear in the offspring, resembling the pattern of male Baikal
Teal.
Incidentally the same study reports that the genetic difference between
Common Teal (Anas crecca crecca) and Green-winged Teal (A. c. carolinensis)
is 5.8%; this is a much larger difference than between many
currently-accepted species pairs (including humans and chimpanzees!).
All food for thought......
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com or http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: face pattern of hybrid dabbling ducks
From: Dave Rintoul <drintoul(AT)ksu.edu>
Date: 14 Jan 2000 8:02am
Martin Reid writes:
> In BIRDING WORLD Volume 12 number 9, a letter from Jon King (page 344)
> reports on the study of dabbling ducks using analysis of DNA
> based upon two
> different gene sequences. To summarize, this study found that
> Baikal Teal
> was so distant from all other dabblers that it represented a monotypic
> clade, with the other three groups being the blue-winged
> ducks (Cinnammon
> and Blue-winged Teals plus shoveler), four genera restricted to South
> America, and all the rest (i.e. wigeon, teal, mallard-types,
> Pintail, etc).
> An intriguing speculation from this is that Baikal Teal may
> be much closer
> in plumage to the ancestral duck of all the groups (having
> diverged from it
> much earlier and then remaining mostly unchanged), and thus
> hybridization
> within and between the clades causes some form of the ancestral face
> pattern to appear in the offspring, resembling the pattern of
> male Baikal
> Teal.
This is indeed interesting, and I have learned a lot. The ideas in the
paragraph above are consistent with a note that I got from Rich Hoyer, who
wrote:
"Hybrids with Gadwall are known to bring up some hidden color patterns that
are reminscent of Baikal Teal. My guess is that you have a Brewer's Duck,
Mallard X Gadwall."
I was able to find one picture (a painting by J.J. Audubon) of a Brewer's
duck on the web at the URL:
http://www.jjaudubon.com/boa_ro/plates/plate387.html
And, except for the shape of the cheek patch and the color of the bill, this
painting does resemble the bird here. I would have never heard of this duck
without this newsgroup, so thanks to Rich and all who thought and wrote
about this subject. I would be very interested in seeing other images of
Brewer's Duck, and hearing about the possible variations in the face
patterns and bill color of this particular hybrid.
Cheers
Dave
Dave Rintoul, Ph.D. Internet: <mailto:drintoul(AT)ksu.edu>
Biology Division - KSU ICBM: 39.18N, 96.34W
Manhattan KS 66506-4901 VOX: 785-532-6663
http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~drintoul/ FAX: 785-532-6653
"Scientists are treacherous allies on committees, for they are apt to
change their minds in response to arguments." - C.M. Bowra, 1898-1971
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: odd duck indeed
From: "Rob (Robert) Hilton" <robert(AT)CSA.COM>
Date: 14 Jan 2000 8:16am
Paul,
That duck photo in American Birds is listed as a likely Blue-winged Teal X
Green-winged Teal hybrid in a book on hybrid ducks privately published in
the 1990s in England....I meant to bring it in to the office today so I
could post the citation but I forgot. I think the title is "Hybrid Ducks"
and I believe the authors are two brothers who are waterfowl/wildfowl
fanciers, *if I remember correctly*.
I saw a duck just like the duck in the American Birds picture in April 1988
at Bombay Hook NWR in central Delaware. Since the Am. Birds photo was
taken in Quebec two years later, the Delaware could be the same individual.
The hybrid duck book makes reference to two other photographs that could
result from a Bluewing/Greenwing cross. I will bring this book in to my
office soon so I can provide more information.
Best,
Rob Hilton
robert(AT)csa.com
Bethesda, Md.
At 05:21 PM 1/13/00 -0500, you wrote:
>for what it's worth, i hastily posted a comparison of a hybrid duck of
>semi-unknown parentage from american birds [vol 44, no. 3; written of as a
>green-winged teal x ?] with a very similar duck found on the sabine cbc in
>louisiana last month.
>the wing of the louisiana bird, as well as bill shape, makes blue-winged
>teal seem the logical choice for the other parent.
>
>http://www.talstar.com/users/conover/duck.html
>
>paul conover
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: face pattern of hybrid dabbling ducks
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 14 Jan 2000 8:21am
A Mallard x Gadwall plate can also be found in:
Kortright, F.H. 1943. The Ducks, Geese and Swans of
North America. American Wildlife Institute. Washington DC
The same plates were used in Bellrose (1976), but I think
they're in better shape in the Kortright's original.
Dave Rintoul wrote:
>
> This is indeed interesting, and I have learned a lot. The ideas in the
> paragraph above are consistent with a note that I got from Rich Hoyer, who
> wrote:
>
> "Hybrids with Gadwall are known to bring up some hidden color patterns that
> are reminscent of Baikal Teal. My guess is that you have a Brewer's Duck,
> Mallard X Gadwall."
>
--
Mike Patterson Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo,
Astoria, OR it is not enough to be persecuted
celata(AT)pacifier.com by an unkind establishment,
you must also be right.
---Robert Park
http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: face pattern of hybrid dabbling ducks
From: Dave Rintoul <drintoul(AT)ksu.edu>
Date: 14 Jan 2000 12:54pm
> A Mallard x Gadwall plate can also be found in:
>
> Kortright, F.H. 1943. The Ducks, Geese and Swans of
> North America. American Wildlife Institute. Washington DC
>
> The same plates were used in Bellrose (1976), but I think
> they're in better shape in the Kortright's original.
>
Thanks for the information, Mike
I checked out the Kortright book from our library and scanned in the
appropriate plate (I suspect that the copyright has long since expired). The
painting of the duck in this plate seems to be basically based on Audubon's
painting, however, and there is still no discussion of the possible
variations in this cross. If someone on this group does have the "Hybrid
Ducks" tome by Barry and Eric Gilham, and if there are other pictures in
there, I would appreciate getting a scan or a copy if possible. Meanwhile,
check out
http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/brewersduck.html
for the painting from the Kortright book.
Thanks
Dave
Dave Rintoul, Ph.D. Internet: <mailto:drintoul(AT)ksu.edu>
Biology Division - KSU ICBM: 39.18N, 96.34W
Manhattan KS 66506-4901 VOX: 785-532-6663
http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~drintoul/ FAX: 785-532-6653
"Scientists are treacherous allies on committees, for they are apt to
change their minds in response to arguments." - C.M. Bowra, 1898-1971
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Gilham waterfowl hybrid book
From: "Rob (Robert) Hilton" <robert(AT)CSA.COM>
Date: 14 Jan 2000 2:52pm
At 01:55 PM 1/14/00 -0600, Dave Rintoul wrote:
>
>If someone on this group does have the "Hybrid
>Ducks" tome by Barry and Eric Gilham, and if there are other pictures in
>there, I would appreciate getting a scan or a copy if possible. Meanwhile,
>check out
>Dave
Dave,
I have the book, but only a few hybrids are pictured, some from museum
skins, more from photos of birds in wildfowl collections. Maybe 3 dozen
out of some 100 hybrids are illustrated.
Today I learned that there are two supplements to the Gilham book. Does
anybody know whether the supplements have photographs, and the general
layout of the supplements (ie. photos of hybrids from the first book, or
new hybrid combinations with or without photos)?
Rob Hilton
robert(AT)csa.com
Bethesda, MD
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid anatids
From: Bruce Deuel <bkrdeuel(AT)snowcrest.net>
Date: 14 Jan 2000 7:35pm
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Hi all,
In reference to Martin's hybrid from Britain, I offer the following from =
my field notes: =20
31 January, 1979-Gray Lodge Wildlife Area, Butte Co., CA: Today I =
discovered an unusual duck in Field 28. I believe it to by a hybrid =
GWTExPINT, or GWTExGADW, or BAIKAL TEAL! Description: Crown reddish =
brown, also chin and wide stripe up the side of the face. Broad =
irridescent green stripe from eye curving to base of nape where it meets =
the one from the other side. A circular spot in front of eye and =
including lores, plus a large patch on cheek, orange-brown. Chest pale =
buff with very faint spots. Side immaculate gray, a paler area between =
sides and black rump. Appears to have white outer tail feathers when =
sitting, but shows an all gray-brown, somewhat pointed tail in flight. =
White could be outer undertail coverts. A prominent (but not nearly as =
much as in a PINT) black horizontal stripe separating sides from back, =
with a buffy brown border above. Tertials slightly curved, brown and =
black striped. Back gray-brown. Belly not noticed. In flight, wings gray =
with green speculum.
And again: 6 February-GLWA: Last Thursday and Friday I noted the =
following: the hybrid duck (additional observations are that it has a =
blue area at the base of the bill; speculum has red-brown anterior and =
white posterior borders - I'm sure it's a GWTExPINT).
Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Brewer's Duck
From: Bruce Deuel <bkrdeuel(AT)snowcrest.net>
Date: 14 Jan 2000 7:35pm
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I forgot to mention in my last post that I also trapped a Brewer's Duck =
at Gray Lodge in the mid 70s that looked exactly like the picture in =
Kortright, so in my limited experience I can't contribute much on =
variation in that form! I will say that it's well-known among waterfowl =
biologists and aviculturists that Mallards will hybridize with anything, =
as evidenced by the hybrid Mallard x Wood Duck that resided for several =
years in the Humboldt State University game pens.
Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA
bkrdeuel(AT)snowcrest.net
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Mallard x Gadwall hybrids
From: Jennifer Hanson <ammodramus(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 14 Jan 2000 7:37pm
Hello Frontiers,
I just wanted to make a few comments about Mallard x Gadwall crosses, aka
“Brewer’s Duck.” First off, the Gillham book does not show any photos of
this cross. It does list several references pertaining to this cross that
are illustrated. One is the already-mentioned Kortwright book; the others
are the following papers, all by J. M. and J. G. Harrison:
A Gadwall with a white neck-ring and a review of plumage variants in
wildfowl. Bull. Brit. Orn. Cl. 83:101-108 (1963)
A presumed trigen duck involving Mallard, Pintail and Gadwall. Bull. Brit.
Orn. Cl. 85:22-26 (1965)
A pair of wild-shot Mallard x Gadwall from the Solway. Bull. Brit. Orn. Cl.
85:141-145 (1965)
Gillham and Gillham note that Mallard x Gadwall hybrids seem to fall into
two types: “...some males tend to resemble a drake Mallard emerging from the
eclipse...The second type is closer in plumage to that of a male Gadwall.”
The Gillhams found eight reports of male Mallard x Gadwall hybrids; two of
these show “incomplete bridling,” that is, a facial pattern that can recall
Baikal Teal. They describe a specimen in the Natural History Museum at
Tring with “a pale buffish throat and buffish foreneck with an incomplete
whitish neck-ring;” Harrison and Harrison (1963) considered three similar
specimens to be variant Gadwalls. Another character the Gillhams mention is
a metallic green neck-ring; this is also shown in Audubon’s painting and the
illustration (by T. M. Shortt) from Kortwright’s book.
On 3 April 1999 I saw a likely Mallard x Gadwall hybrid at Wreck Pond in
Monmouth County, New Jersey. The overall impression I got was of a Gadwall
with a green stripe like a Green-winged Teal’s on the head, although the
green patch covered the top of the head. This stripe began at the level of
the eye (so the lores were not green) and curved to run down the hindneck.
The widest part of the green stripe was on the top of the head; the
narrowest on the hindneck. The green did not come below the duck’s eye,
unlike the Shortt illustration. There was a narrow dark band around the
neck; the bird did not show the metallic green collar/chin that appears to
good effect in Audubon’s painting. Unfortunately, I did not note bill color
or take a very detailed description, but I did at least sketch the head
pattern. As is typical for a male Gadwall, the breast was coarsely
vermiculated and the sides more finely vermiculated. This bird would seem
to fall into the Gillhams' second type of Mallard x Gadwall hybrid.
Best regards and good birding,
Jennifer Hanson
Montclair, New Jersey, USA
ammodramus(AT)hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mallard x Gadwall hybrids
From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US>
Date: 14 Jan 2000 9:04pm
HI Jennifer et al.:
I was wondering how to get ahold of a copy of Gilhams hybrid ducks book?
Sincerely
Ian "Birdbooker" Paulsen
Bainbridge Is., WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
"Rallidae all the way"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mallard x Gadwall hybrids
From: Paul Winter <pdw(AT)HOSLIST.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Date: 15 Jan 2000 12:59am
Ian
> I was wondering how to get ahold of a copy of Gilhams hybrid ducks book
Their address is
P.O.Box 563,
Wallington,
Surrey,
SM6 9DX
UK
Paul
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mallard x Gadwall hybrids
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)SLIP.NET>
Date: 15 Jan 2000 2:08am
ID Frontiers,
Thanks to a contribution from Steve Rottenborn I have posted two
interesting photos of an apparent Brewer's Duck on my photo gallery.
The URL is:
http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/gallery.htm
Comments and feedback are welcome.
Enjoy!
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044: mailto:jmorlan(AT)slip.net
Birding Classes begin Feb 8 in SF: http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee: http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/
AOL Instant Messenger Screen Name: aim:addbuddy?screenname=Joe+Morlan
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: A Very Odd Icterid, Florida
From: Noel Wamer <nwamer(AT)FCOL.COM>
Date: 15 Jan 2000 7:00am
A very odd-looking icterid was found and photographed by Ken Tracey in
Pasco County, Florida on January 14, 2000. The bird was in a mixed flock
of Red-winged Blackbirds and Common Grackles. It's size and shape is
similar to a Red-winged. The picture shows a black head, black throat and
upper breast, off-white or pale buff lower breast and belly, and brownish
(almost chestnut?) wings. It has a pale iris, and a dark bill with a basal
light area reminiscent of some orioles. The legs are not visible in the
picture, but the feet are light-colored.
The picture of this bird can be viewed at:
http://web2.fcol.com/~nwamer/kentraceyicterid.htm
Ken is not subscribed to the list, so a mail link to provide him any
comments is included on the web page.
Later...
Noel Wamer
Jacksonville, FL, US 30.2820 -81.4972
"A strange bird may cause a slight unrest until it is named..."
(Walker Percy)
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