ID-FRONTIERS for June 18-24, 2000

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Curlew Sandpiper or Dunlin?   Angus Wilson    Sun, 18 Jun 2000   5:39am   Re: Curlew Sandpiper or Dunlin?   Adriaens, Peter   Mon, 19 Jun 2000   2:24am   Update on Curlew Sandpiper/Dunlin Question   Angus Wilson    Mon, 19 Jun 2000   10:23am   BT Gull mantle color   Nick Lethaby    Tue, 20 Jun 2000   3:49pm   Re: BT Gull mantle color   Ian Mclaren    Tue, 20 Jun 2000   4:31pm   Re: Petrel vocalizations   Ian Mclaren    Tue, 20 Jun 2000   4:40pm   Re: BT Gull mantle color   Martin Reid    Tue, 20 Jun 2000   5:51pm   Re: BT Gull mantle color   Jon King    Wed, 21 Jun 2000   11:57am   Re: BT Gull mantle color   P. de Knijff   Thu, 22 Jun 2000   12:43am   Re: BT Gull mantle color   Martin Reid    Thu, 22 Jun 2000   5:57am   Exilipes Redpoll ID   Duffy, Michael   Thu, 22 Jun 2000   11:52am

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'. This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

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Subject: Curlew Sandpiper or Dunlin?
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)ENDEAVOR.MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 18 Jun 2000 5:39am

Brian E. Small sent me an interesting photograph of a calidrid sandpiper taken
on the upper Texas coast during April (2 years ago?). Although I suspect this
is
indeed a subadult Curlew Sandpiper (2nd calender yr), the photo provides a nice
illustration of the difficulties involved in separating basic-plumaged Curlew
Sandpiper from the relatively long-billed North American races of Dunlin.

As with other 'quiz' birds, single images can be harder than in life. In this
example, we cannot see the diagnostic rump and must go with a single side view.

The picture can be viewed at:

http://www.best.com/~petrel/BSmallSHorebird.html

I'll add any informative comments to the web page. Please let me know if you'd
prefer to remain anonymous!

Cheers, Angus Wilson

**************************************
Angus Wilson
New York City
wilsoa02(AT)endeavor.med.nyu.edu
Check out the "Ocean Wanderers" bird ID web site.
http://www.best.com/~petrel/index.html
**************************************


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Subject: Re: Curlew Sandpiper or Dunlin?
From: "Adriaens, Peter" <padriaens(AT)C2000.BE>
Date: 19 Jun 2000 2:24am

Hi all,

judging from its extensive, well-defined dark streaking on its breast (even
centrally), throat, hindneck and cheecks, combined with its rather dull
supercilium and fairly darkish-grey or dirty grey upperparts and crown, I
think this bird should be a Dunlin.

Best regards,

Peter Adriaens
BELGIUM

==>-----Original Message-----
==>From: Angus Wilson [mailto:wilsoa02(AT)ENDEAVOR.MED.NYU.EDU]
==>Sent: zondag 18 juni 2000 14:32
==>To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
==>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Curlew Sandpiper or Dunlin?
==>
==>
==>Brian E. Small sent me an interesting photograph of a
==>calidrid sandpiper taken
==>on the upper Texas coast during April (2 years ago?).
==>Although I suspect this is
==>indeed a subadult Curlew Sandpiper (2nd calender yr), the
==>photo provides a nice
==>illustration of the difficulties involved in separating
==>basic-plumaged Curlew
==>Sandpiper from the relatively long-billed North American
==>races of Dunlin.
==>
==>As with other 'quiz' birds, single images can be harder than
==>in life. In this
==>example, we cannot see the diagnostic rump and must go with
==>a single side view.
==>
==>The picture can be viewed at:
==>
==>http://www.best.com/~petrel/BSmallSHorebird.html
==>
==>I'll add any informative comments to the web page. Please
==>let me know if you'd
==>prefer to remain anonymous!
==>
==>Cheers, Angus Wilson
==>
==>**************************************
==>Angus Wilson
==>New York City
==>wilsoa02(AT)endeavor.med.nyu.edu
==>Check out the "Ocean Wanderers" bird ID web site.
==>http://www.best.com/~petrel/index.html
==>**************************************
==>


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Subject: Update on Curlew Sandpiper/Dunlin Question
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)ENDEAVOR.MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 19 Jun 2000 10:23am

Opinions remain divided on the identity of the interesting shorebird
photographed by Brian Small in Texas. While many correspondents feel it is
most likely a Dunlin, certain features still seem wrong even for the
nearctic pacifica/hudsonia subspecies. I would be interested to hear from
additional North American shorebird experts and also from observers in
Australia or South Africa who might have a broader appreciation for the
range of variation in basic-plumage Curlew Sandpipers.

In addition to the messages posted on ID-Frontiers, I have recieved a
number of direct emails. All reply to date have been added to the bottom of
the web page.

http://www.best.com/~petrel/BSmallSHorebird.html

Angus Wilson

***********************************
New York City
tel: (212) 263-0206
Fax: (212) 263-8276
E-mail: wilsoa02(AT)popmail.med.nyu.edu
Bird ID Web Site: http://www.best.com/~petrel/index.html


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Subject: BT Gull mantle color
From: Nick Lethaby <Nick.Lethaby(AT)ARCCORES.COM>
Date: 20 Jun 2000 3:49pm

All:

Has anyone had an opportunity to DIRECTLY compare the upperpart shade of any
of the East coast/Texas Black-tailed Gulls with Lesser Black-backed Gulls. I
am curious as to whether Black-tailed Gull is darker or paler than graellsii
Lesser Black-backed Gull.

Thanks,

Nick Lethaby
Product Manager, ARC Cores Inc.

Tel: 408 360 2131
e-mail: Nick.Lethaby@arccores


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Subject: Re: BT Gull mantle color
From: Ian Mclaren <iamclar(AT)IS.DAL.CA>
Date: 20 Jun 2000 4:31pm

All:

Does anyone out there know if there are voice recordings (say, at night in
flight or on ground at colonies) in web sources of either Manx or Little
Shearwaters? A resident on Sable Island has been hearing strange night
calls - not Leach's Storm Petrels, which have lately taken to nesting
there under buildings and in grass tunnels. I thought that Manx, and
remotely Little, might be plausible. Descriptions of calls in the
literature imply sufficient variability in phrasing that the quality or
tone of the calls might be more revealing.

Admittedly not a pressing mystery, but I thought I'd try.

Cheers, Ian M.

Ian A. McLaren
Biology Department                              phone: (902) 494-2565 (W)
Dalhousie University                                   (902) 429-7024 (H)
Halifax, NS  B3H 4J1                            Fax: (902) 494-3736


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Subject: Re: Petrel vocalizations
From: Ian Mclaren <iamclar(AT)IS.DAL.CA>
Date: 20 Jun 2000 4:40pm

Apologies to all. I cribbed Nick Lethaby's e-mail in composing my own, but
didn't change his subject title "BT-Gull mantle color."

You'll discover that mine is an rfi on petrel vocalizations.

Ian A. McLaren
Biology Department                              phone: (902) 494-2565 (W)
Dalhousie University                                   (902) 429-7024 (H)
Halifax, NS  B3H 4J1                            Fax: (902) 494-3736


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Subject: Re: BT Gull mantle color
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 20 Jun 2000 5:51pm

Dear Nick et al,
I have not been able to directly compare BTGU with LBBG, but I was able to
compare the Texas BTGU with LAGUs - see this web page for various images
with different lighting:
http://www.martinreid.com/btgup01.html
Even if there had been an LBBG for comparison, it would be assuming a great
deal to think it was graellsii; many experienced gullers who see numerous
LBBGs in Texas feel that the average Texas bird is too dark for normal
graellsii - and their molt is often later than graellsii in Europe -
sometimes much later ( e.g. a bird with P8, P9, P10 not fully-grown in late
January).
I can tell you that the Texas BTGU was just a little darker that the many
LAGUs it was usually surrounded by; a "normal" Texas LBBG would be about
the same fraction darker, or maybe a tiny bit darker still; the occasional
bird is the same shade as LAGUs, and i feel these are probably close to the
standard for graellsii - but we see more individuals that are much darker
than LAGU, and thus much darker than the BTGU.  Of course, the identity of
these darkest individuals has never been confirmed....
Cheers,
Martin

At 03:40 PM 6/20/00 -0700, you wrote:
>All:
>
>Has anyone had an opportunity to DIRECTLY compare the upperpart shade of any
>of the East coast/Texas Black-tailed Gulls with Lesser Black-backed Gulls. I
>am curious as to whether Black-tailed Gull is darker or paler than graellsii
>Lesser Black-backed Gull.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Nick Lethaby
>Product Manager, ARC Cores Inc.
>
>Tel: 408 360 2131
>e-mail: Nick.Lethaby@arccores
>
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com  or  http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa


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Subject: Re: BT Gull mantle color
From: Jon King <king(AT)PRBO.ORG>
Date: 21 Jun 2000 11:57am

Dear ID-Frontiers,

I agree wholeheartedly with Martin Reid that we should avoid making
assumptions regarding the taxa of Lesser Black-backed Gull occurring in
North America. I have largely completed an examination of all North
American specimens of LBBG, and while many birds show characters of
_graellsii_, my data suggest that a substantial minority do not accord
well with pure _graellsii_ (based mainly on grey scale data for
upperparts colouration and biometrics). Some of these perhaps best fit
the hybrid population _graellsii_ x _intermedius_ (probably from the
southern North Sea) on upperparts colouration, while a small number may
represent pure _intermedius_.

My personal field experience of North American LBBGs accords with that
of Martin, and suggests that a number of birds are rather darker than
British _graellsii_. Recently Klaus Malling Olsen (pers. comm.) noted
that many LBBGs he has seen in north-eastern USA seemed too dark for
pure _graellsii_.

Consequently, comparisons of upperparts colouration between Black-tailed
Gulls (and other vagrant gull species) and LBBGs in North America should
probably not assume that _graellsii_ is definitely involved. Coupled
with the (generally underestimated) problems of field lighting
conditions, this demonstrates why other characters (e.g., structure,
moult, primary pattern) should often supersede upperparts colouration in
adult gull identification issues.

As Martin indicates, there is increasing evidence (including from
specimens) that many North American LBBGs undergo primary moult
significantly later than _graellsii_ for which there are published data
(mainly UK populations). While this may perhaps be related to taxonomy,
alternatively it may reflect the recent evolution of later moult by
LBBGs on this side of the Atlantic as a consequence of later breeding
(depending on where these birds are reproducing), and/or of a much
longer migration, than experienced by typical _graellsii_.

I would be very interested to hear from anyone in Iceland, north-eastern
USA or eastern Canada who has a significant amount of moult data from
LBBGs in these regions (a good series of flight photos of adults in
autumn would be equally useful). Many thanks.

Cheers, Jon.

----------------------------
Jon R. King
Point Reyes Bird Observatory
E-mail: king(AT)prbo.org
----------------------------


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Subject: Re: BT Gull mantle color
From: "P. de Knijff" <knijff(AT)RULY46.MEDFAC.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:43am

Of course, many of the points raised by John were already clarified by the
two excellent articles in Birding a few years ago (including a skin
study).

Best way to be sure about the origin of USA LBBG is looking at the legs.
If they have a colour band, its colour and code are strong indications of
its origin.......

This was demonstrated by the bird I observed a few years ago at
Cold-Spring Harbour which indeed originated from one of the Dutch LBBG
colonies (and thus a "dutch integrade").

Birds from Iceland, colour banded there, have been observed at the Azores
and it's assumed that they make there by a straight direct flight. So
watch them carefully !!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter de Knijff, PhD
Forensic Laboratory for DNA Research
MGC-Department of Human and Clinical Genetics
Leiden University Medical Center
POBox 9503
2300 RA  Leiden
The Netherlands
phone: +31 71 527 4318 (secr) / 1583 (direct)
fax:   +31 71 527 4517

Y-STR home-page: http://ruly70.medfac.leidenuniv.nl/~fldo/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject: Re: BT Gull mantle color
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 22 Jun 2000 5:57am

Dear all,
Jon mentioned the Iclandic LBBGs, and i know there has been some
speculation about these birds. i am happy to provide some background on
this, generously provided by Yann Kolbeinsson of Iceland; to save email
time/space I have placed the correspondence on a web page:
http://www.martinreid.com/lbbgice.html
Cheers,
Martin

Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com  or  http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa


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Subject: Exilipes Redpoll ID
From: "Duffy, Michael" <Michael_Duffy(AT)MOMA.ORG>
Date: 22 Jun 2000 11:52am

Would any one with experience with _exilipes_  Hoary Redpoll comment on the
following:

Presumed male Hoary Redpoll with white unstreaked rump and immaculate white
undertail coverts - but also with very bright rosy breast - observed in
Churchill, MB on 18 June 2000.  Bill small but not so "pushed-in" looking.
Observed closely but only for 30 seconds or so before flying off and out of
sight.

Judging from the literature including the recent _British Birds_ article, it
appears as if Hoaries never show a bright rosy breast.  Is this a possible
indication of hybrid common/hoary or is this typical coloration for breeding
male _exilipes_ in Northern Canada?

Many thanks.

Michael Duffy
New York City