ID-FRONTIERS for July 16-22, 2000

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Cliff Swallow roosting   Gerald White    Mon, 17 Jul 2000   7:13am   Vega Gull reports   Julian Hough    Mon, 17 Jul 2000   2:03pm   Caspian Gull ID   Martin Birch    Tue, 18 Jul 2000   7:57am   Re: Vega Gull reports   Jon King    Tue, 18 Jul 2000   9:44am   More on Caspian Gull   Martin Reid    Wed, 19 Jul 2000   9:41am   Re: More on Caspian Gull   Nick Lethaby    Wed, 19 Jul 2000   10:03am   Re: More on Caspian Gull   Adriaens, Peter   Wed, 19 Jul 2000   10:45am   Re: More on Caspian Gull   Dick Newell    Thu, 20 Jul 2000   3:20pm   Pleske 1928   Pierre Andre Crochet   Fri, 21 Jul 2000   1:21am   Re: More on Caspian Gull   Pierre Andre Crochet   Fri, 21 Jul 2000   1:58am   another Bahrain larid   Martin Reid    Fri, 21 Jul 2000   5:40am   Re: More on Caspian Gull   Dick Newell    Fri, 21 Jul 2000   7:49am   Re: another Bahrain larid   Dick Newell    Fri, 21 Jul 2000   8:00am   More photos of Texas mystery sandpiper   Angus Wilson    Sat, 22 Jul 2000   5:18pm

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'. This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Cliff Swallow roosting
From: Gerald White <gdwhite(AT)MACHLINK.COM>
Date: 17 Jul 2000 7:13am

I have posted to Birdchat with this question but have not had any response.

>I know where a three hundred pound Gorilla sleeps but what about Cliff
Swallows, Hirundo pyrrhonota.
 I would like to know if they use their nest site as a roost.  I am watching
a colony of Cliff Swallows to determine the ending date of the breeding
period .  I can not actually see the young birds in the nest, I only see
birds entering the nests for various lengths of time.  I have no way of
knowing if a parent was entering the nest with food for the young or simply
resting.
If the adults are using the nests as a roost until the migration, it would
corrupt my data.

Gerald White
Muscatine,IA
gdwhite(AT)machlink.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Vega Gull reports
From: Julian Hough <Jrhough1(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 17 Jul 2000 2:03pm

I would be interested to know the geographical range of Vega Gull (L.a vegae)
in
Siberia.

Also does anyone know if are there any putative Vega Gull
records outside of Alaska, specifically, are there any documented east
coast reports?

A bird photographed in Texas by Martin Reid et al., seems to fit the criteria
for vegae, and is almost identical to a bird I photographed in Connecticut
several winters ago.

 If anyone with experience of vegae and can comment on the identification of
the Texas individual, I would be most interested to hear from them.

Thanks in advance,

Julian Hough, CT
jrhough1(AT)aol.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Caspian Gull ID
From: Martin Birch <martinb(AT)ACTIONAID.ORG.UK>
Date: 18 Jul 2000 7:57am

Caspian Gull ID article at surfbirds.com.

url is http://www.surfbirds.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Vega Gull reports
From: Jon King <king(AT)PRBO.ORG>
Date: 18 Jul 2000 9:44am

Julian et al.,

The distribution map for _vegae_ in Grant (Gulls, a guide to
identification, 1986, p.87) is broadly informative, however a number of
German and Russian references clearly indicate that _Larus vegae vegae_
extends further south along the shore of the Bering Sea below the Koryak
Highlands (hybridising with Slaty-backed Gull here and at the extreme
north end of the Kamchatka Peninsula). At the western edge of its range,
_L. v. birulai_ extends more widely onto the Taimyr Peninsula than
indicated by Grant, especially on the northern and eastern sides of the
peninsula, but the exact distribution is confused by extensive
hybridisation with _L. heuglini taimyrensis_. Note that the nominate
race is confined to the eastern quarter (or less) of this total range.

I dug around last year and failed to uncover any confirmed reports (or
even solid claims) for Vega Gull anywhere in North America outside of
Alaska, but would also be very interested to hear otherwise.

Cheers, Jon.


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: More on Caspian Gull
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 19 Jul 2000 9:41am

Dear all,
Following Martin Birch's post alerting you to the very informative page on
ideniifying Caspian Gulls, I found an interesting individual lurking in my
photos from Bahrain.  I have added these here:
http://www.martinreid.com/cachp32.html
 and I'd be most interested to get some opinion/comment on this bird, as it
does not seem to fit the classic mould for Caspian Gulls seen in NW Europe.
I've also added a few other gull pages to my Gull Index:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullinx.htm
 and as always, I would appreciate any feedback (via ID-F if you feel we
could all benefit)
Thanks,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com  or  http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: More on Caspian Gull
From: Nick Lethaby <Nick.Lethaby(AT)ARCCORES.COM>
Date: 19 Jul 2000 10:03am

Dear all,
Following Martin Birch's post alerting you to the very informative page on
ideniifying Caspian Gulls, I found an interesting individual lurking in my
photos from Bahrain.  I have added these here:
http://www.martinreid.com/cachp32.html
 and I'd be most interested to get some opinion/comment on this bird, as it
does not seem to fit the classic mould for Caspian Gulls seen in NW Europe.

>>> For what it's worth on a trip to Kazakstan last year, a member of the
Dutch RBC commented that the 'Caspian Gulls' there didn't look like the ones
wintering in Holland. I suspect that the split was (as usual) poorly
researched and made generalizations based on studies of birds from a limited
part of the breeding and wintering ranges.

I've also added a few other gull pages to my Gull Index:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullinx.htm
 and as always, I would appreciate any feedback (via ID-F if you feel we
could all benefit)
Thanks,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com  or  http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: More on Caspian Gull
From: "Adriaens, Peter" <padriaens(AT)C2000.BE>
Date: 19 Jul 2000 10:45am

Hi all,

reports of Caspian Gulls like this with brown underwings are not new. See
e.g. http://www.moerbeek.myweb.nl/meeuw01.htm  and
http://www.moerbeek.myweb.nl/meeuw02.htm

A bit of a problem may be that those websites are in Dutch :-)... But
basically, this is what it is about: 4 good photographs show what appears to
be a rather classic 1st winter Caspian Gull from the Netherlands. However,
when this bird was seen in flight, it showed mostly brownish underwings.

Birds like this have been reported in Belgium as well. I as well have seen
one first winter that fitted Caspian Gull much better than Yellow-legged
Gull or Herring Gull, but had plain brownish underwings.

Perhaps birds like this are better left unidentified for the time being, as
the characters of Caspian Gulls have only recently been described, and the
complete story may not yet be fully known. There are several possibilities
that may account for the "atypical Caspian Gulls":
1. Perhaps Caspian Gull is more variable than has been generally described
thus far, with a minority of birds showing rather darkish underwings. In
this respect, it is also worth mentioning that there seems to be some
variation in the mantle/scapular pattern as well, some birds being more
heavily marked on these feathers, even showing a broad anchor pattern.
As it is nearly an unwritten law that large gulls are very variable, I think
this is a distinct possibility.
2. In Europe: to some extent, hybridisation and/or intergradation with
michahellis Yellow-legged Gull may occur.
3. Eastern cachinnans may have brownish underwings more often, and perhaps
the occasional bird reaches Western Europe as a vagrant. I think this is
less likely, and I imagine that seperating western and eastern cachinnans is
far less simple than just looking at the underwing !

The situation is more complex in Bahrain, where several similar forms occur
together (barabensis, heuglini, eastern cachinnans and western cachinnans
are all not easily separated in immature plumages), as Martin Reid already
suggests ("chosing eastern cachinnans over barabensis is a matter of
degree"). I would not be surprised if hybridisation and intergradation more
regularly occur in that region. The broad dark tail band and brownish
underwings of the bird at http://www.martinreid.com/cachp32.html are
certainly reminiscent of barabensis, but the pale mantle and fairly long
bill would indicate cachinnans. Perhaps this is still within the variation
in eastern cachinnans, or perhaps it is a sign of intergradation, but that
remains speculative.

Similarly, the Big Pale Heuglinis may also be barabensis intergrades (?),
but really, I don't want to look into that one...

Best regards,

Peter Adriaens
BELGIUM


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: More on Caspian Gull
From: Dick Newell <Dick.Newell(AT)SMALLWORLD.CO.UK>
Date: 20 Jul 2000 3:20pm

Nick Lethaby said:
"For what it's worth on a trip to Kazakstan last year, a member of the
Dutch RBC commented that the 'Caspian Gulls' there didn't look like the ones
wintering in Holland. I suspect that the split was (as usual) poorly
researched and made generalizations based on studies of birds from a limited
part of the breeding and wintering ranges."

The gulls in Kazakstan are a bit of a mystery. They certainly don't look
like Caspian Gulls (western cachinnans/"pontic" gull) that turn up in
western Europe. On a trip that I made in 1987 I took a number of photos of
these birds near Lake Bekhan near Tselinograd. I had always assumed they
were (eastern) cachinnans, partly based on the location. However a recent
paper in British Birds [Panov and Monzikov, BB  Vol 93 Number 5, May 2000],
promoting the idea that barabensis is the result of hybridisation between
heuglini and cachinnans contains photographs of supposed barabensis some
hundreds of miles north of Lake Bekhan at the Chany Lakes in southwestern
Siberia which look similar to the Lake Bekhan birds. Neither the Chany nor
Bekhan birds look like birds from the middle east purporting to be
barabensis on various websites (e.g. Martin Reid). These latter birds look
darker (near to graellsii), do not have prominent tongues protruding into
the black on the primaries and lack an extensive blunt-ended tongue on P10.
The characteristics of the Beckan birds is that they have very bright soft
parts, fairly pale grey upperparts (subject to photo illusion), sub-terminal
mirrors on P9 and P10, grey tongues protruding into the black on the
primaries and a tongue on the inner web of P10 that is blunt ended, hugs the
shaft fairly closely and extends half way down the visible part of the
feather.
So not enough is known about relationships between western cachinnans
("pontic" gull), eastern cachinnans, barabensis from the Chany Lakes,
barabensis from the mid-east,  and heuglini. Whether their ranges are
disjoint or connect in a cline/hybrid zone is yet to be determined. Knowing
where the mid-east barabensis come from would be a help.
Dick Newell


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Pleske 1928
From: Pierre Andre Crochet <pierre_andre.crochet(AT)EVOLUTION.UU.SE>
Date: 21 Jul 2000 1:21am

Dear all,

Sorry for cross-posting.

Could someone with a copy at hand send me (or preferably fax me) a copy of
Pleske (1928) Birds of the Eurasian toundra Mem Boston Soc. Nat. Hist. 6:
11-285. ?

I don't need it all! Just the passage describing omissus gull.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Pierre-Andre

Pierre-Andre Crochet
Dept. of Animal Ecology
Evolutionary Biology Centre
Norbyvagen 18D
S-752 36 Uppsala
Sweden
Tel . 018 471 64 85 or + 46 18 471 64 85 from abroad
Mobile: 070 241 72 38 or + 46 70 241 72 38 from abroad
Fax 018 471 64 84 or + 46 18 471 64 84 from abroad


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: More on Caspian Gull
From: Pierre Andre Crochet <pierre_andre.crochet(AT)EVOLUTION.UU.SE>
Date: 21 Jul 2000 1:58am

Nick Lethaby said:
"For what it's worth on a trip to Kazakstan last year, a member of the
Dutch RBC commented that the 'Caspian Gulls' there didn't look like the ones
wintering in Holland. I suspect that the split was (as usual) poorly
researched and made generalizations based on studies of birds from a limited
part of the breeding and wintering ranges."

I am not a great supporter of the Dutch split usually (and that's a euphemism)
but I have to admit the michahellis / cachinnans split is perfectly sensible.
Not only are they reproductively isolated when they meet, but they are
genetically well differentiated (according to the Liebers and Helbig team).
There has been ample work by (former) Russian ornithologist demonstrating than
cachinnans and argentatus are differentiated enough to warrant species status.
So having L. argentatus, L. cachinnans and L. michahellis is the most sensible
way to deal with this group at the moment. Where we should put barabensis,
heuglini, mongolicus and vegae remains open... But think about it: are Kazakstan
 and Back Sea "cachinnans" more different than a yellow-legged argentatus and a
British argenteus? (I'd be happy to hear Dick's opinion). The real pain is that
barabensis seems to link heuglini and cachinnans, but who would be happy to have
 heuglini and cachinnans in the same species? There are many unanswered
questions, but I am convinced than the Caspian Gull split was a very good move.
I am more sceptical about splitting heuglini from fuscus, an!
d absolutely convinced than splitting graellsii from fuscus is just mad.

Gull systematic is still messy, but I believe we should change the systematic as
 soon as we discover new facts, not keep it as it is until we have understood it
 all. It will take a lot of time before this is achieved!

Pierre-Andre Crochet
Dept. of Animal Ecology
Evolutionary Biology Centre
Norbyvagen 18D
S-752 36 Uppsala
Sweden
Tel . 018 471 64 85 or + 46 18 471 64 85 from abroad
Mobile: 070 241 72 38 or + 46 70 241 72 38 from abroad
Fax 018 471 64 84 or + 46 18 471 64 84 from abroad


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: another Bahrain larid
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 21 Jul 2000 5:40am

Dear all,
Many thanks to those who replied publicly and privately about the possible
Bahrain Caspian Gull I recently posted to ID-F. A private message mentioned
that one Dutch Guller feels that bird
(http://www.martinreid.com/cachp32.html) is a heuglini; otherwise, the
opinion seemed to be "cach-like, but not sure which form".
Dick Newell's comments on Kasakh birds is very timely; I have seen his pics
and discussed the situation with Dick, and feel he has provided an
excellent summary of the current situation.
On to a very different (or is it?) bird:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp12.html
- I look forward to your comments,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com  or  http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: More on Caspian Gull
From: Dick Newell <Dick.Newell(AT)SMALLWORLD.CO.UK>
Date: 21 Jul 2000 7:49am

Pierre Andre Crochet asked : "are Kazakstan and Back Sea "cachinnans" more
different than a yellow-legged argentatus and a British argenteus? (I'd be
happy to hear Dick's opinion)."

That's a bit like asking do I think there is a greater difference between
apples and oranges than there is between bananas and cucumbers?

But seriously, I have always thought there was a continuous clinal change
between argenteus and argentatus apart from some individual argentatus
having yellow-legs. Is it known for sure that there is a continuous clinal
change between eastern and western cachinnans or is there a discontinuity
(e.g. across the Caspian Sea)?
Dick Newell


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: another Bahrain larid
From: Dick Newell <Dick.Newell(AT)SMALLWORLD.CO.UK>
Date: 21 Jul 2000 8:00am

Martin,
http://www.martinreid.com/cachp32.html
If there is a melange of hybridising cachinnans, barabensis and heuglini's
somewhere up there in Kazakstan or Siberia, then a bird of this appearance
does not surprise me - but I cannot put a name to it.

http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp12.html
I haven't a clue. What species (2CY bird) has tertials like that in the
mid-east? If I saw this on my local dump, I would probably pass it off as a
Greater Black-backed Gull. The adult I would probably vote for heuglini (but
dodgy without seeing it side on though) - so would that be what the 2CY is
too?

Dick Newell


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: More photos of Texas mystery sandpiper
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)ENDEAVOR.MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 22 Jul 2000 5:18pm

For anyone who is still interested, Brian E. Small has generously provided
several additional photos of the puzzling sandpiper he photographed in
Texas in April. Unfortunately, he reports that the rump pattern was not
seen -  a question several correspondents have asked.

The new pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.best.com/~petrel/BSmallSHorebird3.html

Angus Wilson

***********************************
New York City
tel: (212) 263-0206
Fax: (212) 263-8276
E-mail: wilsoa02(AT)popmail.med.nyu.edu
Bird ID Web Site: http://www.best.com/~petrel/index.html