ID-FRONTIERS for August 1-5, 2000

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: Mongolian Gull   Adriaens, Peter   Tue, 1 Aug 2000   3:48am   Re: Mongolian Gull   Martin Reid    Tue, 1 Aug 2000   8:22am   (no subject)   Brian Small    Tue, 1 Aug 2000   9:41am   Re: Mongolian Gull   Steve Hampton    Tue, 1 Aug 2000   1:18pm   Mongolian Gull   ian paulsen    Tue, 1 Aug 2000   3:25pm   Re: Mongolian Gull   Steve Hampton    Tue, 1 Aug 2000   4:37pm   The possible Heuglini in England   Adriaens, Peter   Thu, 3 Aug 2000   4:55am   Re: The possible Heuglini in England   Dick Newell    Sat, 5 Aug 2000   7:17am   Re The possible Heuglini in England   Millington/BIS    Sat, 5 Aug 2000   8:24am

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Subject: Re: Mongolian Gull
From: "Adriaens, Peter" <padriaens(AT)C2000.BE>
Date: 1 Aug 2000 3:48am

You can also have a look at
http://soback.kornet21.net/~pintail/bird/Gull.htm
This is a Korean website, but written in English. It holds quite a few
photographs of Mongolian Gulls.

Peter

==>-----Original Message-----
==>From: William Hull [mailto:william.hull(AT)SDRC.COM]
==>Sent: maandag 31 juli 2000 20:44
==>To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
==>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mongolian Gull
==>
==>
==>Check out http://www15.freeweb.ne.jp/animal/larus/gullidentifi_.htm
==>
==>It is in Japanese but there are English and scientific
==>names.  There are
==>Mongolian Gull photos there.
==>
==>Bill
==>Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
==>
==>Brian Small wrote:
==>>
==>> My first contact is a request. Does anyone have any images
==>of first-summer or
==>> second-winter Mongolian Gull Larus (cachinnans) mongolicus?
==>>
==>> Brian Small
==>


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Subject: Re: Mongolian Gull
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 1 Aug 2000 8:22am

Dear all,
There are images of adults and juvs from Lake Baikal at:-
http://www.martinreid.com/monginx.html
 - the bill shape of these birds does not fit the statements at the Korean
site (http://soback.kornet21.net/~pintail/bird/Gull.htm) of "relatively
short and deep bill" - in fact, I am struck by how similar are the first
two juvs to some paler, fresh-looking juv. California Gulls - except for
the long legs (e.g. the first bird at http://www.west.net/~dj/cali4.htm;
also http://www.yukonweb.com/community/ybc/cagu_92.jpg); what differences
are there in the plumage???
Also, do juv/B1 mongolicus develop a pale base to the bill in early winter?
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com  or  http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa


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Subject: (no subject)
From: Brian Small <BrianJSmall(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 1 Aug 2000 9:41am

Images of a gull, tentatively identified as a 1W Heuglin's at King's Lynn,
UK, exist at www.surfbirds.com. I would appreciate any comments from those
that may know about these things.

Brian Small


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Subject: Re: Mongolian Gull
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 1 Aug 2000 1:18pm

Martin,
   Indeed, the juv Mongolian Gulls do look at lot like the juv Calif Gulls I've
been seeing (most of which still have all-black bills!).  One big difference is
the greater coverts.  The Mongolians seem to consistently have a lot of white
with well-defined rows of dark spots, while the Californians generally show a
dark band when standing, much like the difference between most smithsonianus and
 argenteus.  I don't think I've ever seen a Calif Gull with as much white in the
 greater covs as the Mong photos.
    Other differences (in flight) are that Mongolian has a very obvious pale
window on the inner primaries and seems to have more white in the tail as well.

Steve Hampton
_____________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax

>>> Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET> 08/01/00 08:18AM >>>
Dear all,
There are images of adults and juvs from Lake Baikal at:-
http://www.martinreid.com/monginx.html
 - the bill shape of these birds does not fit the statements at the Korean
site (http://soback.kornet21.net/~pintail/bird/Gull.htm) of "relatively
short and deep bill" - in fact, I am struck by how similar are the first
two juvs to some paler, fresh-looking juv. California Gulls - except for
the long legs (e.g. the first bird at http://www.west.net/~dj/cali4.htm;
also http://www.yukonweb.com/community/ybc/cagu_92.jpg); what differences
are there in the plumage???
Also, do juv/B1 mongolicus develop a pale base to the bill in early winter?
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com  or  http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa


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Subject: Mongolian Gull
From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US>
Date: 1 Aug 2000 3:25pm

HI Frontiers:
  I was wondering what the scientific name of the Mongolian Gull is? I
just got the NEW Field Guide to the Birds of China by Mackinnon and
couldn't find it in the book!

Sincerely
Ian "Birdbooker" Paulsen
Bainbridge Is., WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
"Rallidae all the way"


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Subject: Re: Mongolian Gull
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 1 Aug 2000 4:37pm

Well, it could be Larus argenteus cachinaans mongolicus whoknowswhatitis.  Older
 field guides probably have it as Herring Gull and thus argenteus, but newer
ones may have it as cachinaans and labelled "Yellow-legged Gull".  In fact, the
name given to it may be a good way to age field guides (as opposed to aging
gulls)!  A range map may help you figure it out.  Also, don't be surprised by
guides that treat the large Asian gulls very superficially while other species
are described in great detail.

Steve Hampton
_____________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax

>>> ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US> 08/01/00 03:08PM >>>
HI Frontiers:
  I was wondering what the scientific name of the Mongolian Gull is? I
just got the NEW Field Guide to the Birds of China by Mackinnon and
couldn't find it in the book!

Sincerely
Ian "Birdbooker" Paulsen
Bainbridge Is., WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
"Rallidae all the way"


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Subject: The possible Heuglini in England
From: "Adriaens, Peter" <padriaens(AT)C2000.BE>
Date: 3 Aug 2000 4:55am

Dear Brian and others interested,

I had a good look at the video stills of the possible Heuglini in England at
www.surfbirds.com, and have compared it with the Limicola article by Visa
Rauste, and photographs from various Finnish websites. So far, I have not
heard any comments on this bird, but perhaps this one will start the
discussion ?

First of all, I would like to address one of your questions from the site:
"Can first-summer Heuglin's, in late July, lack any adult-like mantle
feathers?"
The answer to this one is yes, as can be seen in photo 61 in Limicola 4:1999
(taken 3 September), and in the photos from the following Finnish site:
http://www.jyu.fi/~kjkilpim/kuva14.htm
http://www.jyu.fi/~kjkilpim/kuva15.htm
This first-summer Heuglini was photographed in Finland on 25 July, and its
identification was confirmed by Visa Rauste. The bird shows dark shaft
streaks to nearly all of its mantle feathers and scapulars.

Now, having said that, I would immediately like to add that the Norfolk gull
does not bear much resemblance to these birds. "Our" mystery gull is a big
bird, with an almost massive, nearly all dark bill, and an advanced state of
moult. In most stills, its upperparts seem to have a rather pale background
colour.
Heuglini appears to be a very variable taxon, and especially 2nd calendar
year birds in late summer can be little fun to identify -- as is also the
case in most other large gulls indeed (moult from first-summer to
second-winter produces a very variable plumage). Therefore, I would be very
careful in naming an out-of-range bird.

Having looked into detail at the Norfolk gull, I think there are few
features in favour of Heuglini and actually find myself wondering why it is
not just a michahellis Yellow-legged Gull ?!

First of all, its bill is huge and nearly all-black. Fair enough, it is
stated that Heuglini has a rather heavy bill, being quite small at the base
and widening slightly at the gonys, giving it a sometimes 'drooping'
appearance, but this bird's bill is simply massive, in a way that it recalls
Great Black-backed Gull. The bill in Heuglini is not that much heavier than
a graellsii, only somewhat thicker at the gonys. This is logical, as western
Heuglini is not a very large gull, being clearly smaller than argentatus
(Scandinavian) Herring Gull, thus not differing much in size from graellsii.
The bill in the Norfolk gull is all-dark, darkish basally and black
distally, with a pale tip.
In late summer, the vast majority of 1st summer Heuglinis show a clearly
two-toned bill, being obviously pale pinkish or even yellowish for about
two-thirds.
The very heavy, blackish bill fits michahellis very well, and simply looks
too heavy for any Heuglini.

A second important feature is the moult state: the bird has nearly finished
its primary moult (p9 growing, p10 juvenile), and its tail moult (coinciding
with the end of the primary moult). Its secondaries are still in active
moult, the inners being still first-generation feathers; its wing-coverts
have been replaced a while ago and are therefore already worn, and its
upperpart-feathers are second-generation (first-summer). All in all, this is
quite an advanced state, and in fact too advanced for a typical 2nd calendar
year Heuglini at the time of the year.
In about 50% of the birds examined by Visa Rauste in Finland and the Russian
breeding grounds, the primary moult had not even started at the beginning of
June. The moult state of the mystery gull (p9 growing, p10 juvenile) is
typically shown by 2nd cy Heuglinis at the beginning of September, so the
bird is over a month ahead of the typical scheme. It should be noted that a
small minority may moult earlier, and that exceptionally some Heuglinis may
even replace all of their primaries in the wintering quarters, before the
spring migration. However, the moult state of the mystery gull is shown by
many first-summer michahellis at the end of July/beginning of August, as
this taxon is one of the earliest to moult among the large gulls, having a
southernly distirbution across Europe.

Also worth mentioning is the moult of the secondaries. Heuglini is said to
regularly replace all of its secondaries in the winter quarters. The Norfolk
gull has still retained its inner secondaries.

In most photographs at surfbirds.com, the general colour of the upperparts
is rather pale greyish. The overall impression is that they are irregularly
mottled/barred with dark. Many feathers show a small, slightly rounded dark
spot in the centre, shown by many 1st summer michahellis. Typical 1st summer
Heuglinis are darker grey on these feathers, and show only a thin dark shaft
streak.
First-summer michahellis are very variable, especially in late summer, some
birds showing already many adult-like grey mantle feathers, but many have
the irregularly mottled look of the mystery bird.

IMHO, the 2nd generation greater-coverts, though rather worn, also suggest
michahellis rather than Heuglini. In late summer, 2nd cy Heuglinis very show
almost completely dark greater coverts, without any barring even on the
middle and inner feathers, especially when worn. Such a pattern is
reminiscent of 1st summer Caspian Gull, while the Norfolk gull shows dark
outer greater-coverts, but barred inners, as in 1st summer michahellis.

In all of the photographs, a very angular head shape is obvious, with a very
flat crown typical of michahellis. I have not found this peculiar shape in
any photographs of Heuglini, which has a small, nicely rounded head,
occasionally with a bit of a sloping forehead.
The pattern of the inner primaries (dark outer vanes, pale inners) also fits
michahellis. In the Limicola article, two photographs of 2nd cy Heuglinis
with a similar state of primary moult (p9-10 retained, or p9 growing, p10
retained) as the mystery gull can be seen: photo 58 and photo 60. Both were
taken at the beginning of September, and both show plainer, greyer inner
primaries. A minority of birds still shows mostly dark inner primaries, but
I found no reference to an inner-primary pattern of pale inner vanes/dark
outer vanes.

The streaking in the hindneck looks rather vague and dirty, and it reaches
quite far towards the throat. In typical cachinnans and heuglini, it is more
sharply defined and confined to the hindneck, but this is of course
variable. There is a dusky smudge around the eye. First-summer michahellis
often show this, as a remnant of the dark 'eyemask' in first winter (again
variable).

As the bird is nearing its complete moult, the rather pale underwing may be
explained by the presence of many (or all ?) 2nd generation coverts here (as
stated on surfbirds.com), which are paler and more delicately patterned than
in the first calendar year.
It is said that the "albatross posture" was noted, but if this behavioural
character alone is enough to safely exclude michahellis, is rather doubtful.
Of course, any large gull may lift its wings on occasion, when it wants to
chase away another in an agressive way.

I think cachinnans is out as well, given the combination of bill shape, bill
colour, head shape, pattern of greater-coverts and sligthly more advanced
moult state.

In conlusion, my question is: why is this bird not a Yellow-legged Gull of
the race michahellis ?

Best regards,

Peter Adriaens
BELGIUM


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Subject: Re: The possible Heuglini in England
From: Dick Newell <Dick.Newell(AT)SMALLWORLD.CO.UK>
Date: 5 Aug 2000 7:17am

It's interesting how the opinions on this gull have gone from heuglini to
cachinnans and now a suggestion of michahellis. I have spent hours watching
and photographing this bird and was initially in the heuglini camp, never
really got into the pure cachinnans camp and would have a problem with the
pure michahellis camp. All large gull species are highly variable - but this
gull is a point off the curve for both cachinnans and michahellis for me,
although I can see both in it.
If one dismisses heuglini and then considers all the possible hybrids:
cach x mich
cach x graellsii - not known to occur?
cach x argentatus
mich x graellsii
mich x argentatus -
graellsii x argentatus
Then, imho, the one that could explain most plausibly the cachinnans feel,
very white head and underparts, very long legs, large bill, flat crown,
anchors, double anchors and other large black marks in some of the
scapulars, as well as fine shaft streaks on others, although pale grey
ground colour in the scaps the whole upperparts have a graellsii type cast -
darker than cachinnans is: michahellis x cachinnans - a known hybrid from
Germany and Poland.
Dick Newell


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Subject: Re The possible Heuglini in England
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 5 Aug 2000 8:24am

Hi

More images of the controversial gull at King's Lynn, Norfolk, England can
be viewed at
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp16.html
The bird is still present.

It was never really going to be a heuglini, but it was worth exploring that
avenue just in case.
Visa Rauste and other birders have examined the evidence and given good
reasons for it not being heuglini, so many thanks are due to them.

Some brief notes on its basic appearance may help support the photos:

It is a large (but not heavy-looking) and long-legged first-summer gull.
It does not yet show any major third generation feathers.
Primary moult has reached P8 on each wing (juvenile P10 & 9 still present on
left, just P10 on right wing).
The outermost pair of tail feathers are still juvenile, all the rest are
growing simultaneously (and protrude just beyond the tail-coverts).
The bill is dark but with a pink flush to the basal third/half and a pale
straw tip.
Its headshape changes with posture.
The underwings are pale, but the axillaries and underwing coverts are barred
sepia along their length.
Other plumage features can be examined on the many photos on the two
websites.
When feeding, this bird frequently indulges in the exaggerated 'albatross'
display, but also calls with its wings held closed.
The call is variously described (but to my ears sounds not dissimilar to
Herring Gull)

Obviously large gulls are very variable at this age, and the variability of
first-summer cachinnans has not really been fully documented anywhere.
However, if this bird is not a large male cachinnans or a strange
michahellis, a hybrid could provide the answer, but which one?
My 'GUESS' .... cachinnans X argentatus perhaps? (I'm not putting money on
it though...)

cheers
Richard Millington

sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
(Birding World, Books for Birders & Birdline)
Bird Information Service, Stonerunner, Coast Road,
Cley next the Sea, Holt, Norfolk, NR25 7RZ, UK
(VAT Reg 676 8589 56)
Tel. 44 (0) 1263 741139  Fax. 741173
Website www.birdingworld.co.uk