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ID-FRONTIERS for December 17-23, 2000
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Easton, PA Gull (Last Post?) | Dave DeReamus | Sun, 17 Dec 2000 | 12:57am |
| Re: the Easton, PA gull | Martin Reid | Sun, 17 Dec 2000 | 1:57pm |
| Odd Oriole | Paul Conover | Sun, 17 Dec 2000 | 3:56pm |
| a new gull "Quiz" | Martin Reid | Sun, 17 Dec 2000 | 4:04pm |
| Herring x LBB photos | Steve Hampton | Mon, 18 Dec 2000 | 3:26pm |
| another potential LBBG hybrid | Bruce Mactavish | Mon, 18 Dec 2000 | 8:08pm |
| Easton PA gull et al | paullarkin | Tue, 19 Dec 2000 | 11:03am |
| cachinnans | Brian Small | Tue, 19 Dec 2000 | 12:41pm |
| Re: cachinnans | Calvin Gehlen | Tue, 19 Dec 2000 | 1:00pm |
| Re: American Birds 'Little Gull' photo | Alan Wormington | Tue, 19 Dec 2000 | 2:27pm |
| Niagara conference gull | richard stern | Tue, 19 Dec 2000 | 6:23pm |
| American Birds 'Little Gull' photo | Andrew Kratter | Tue, 19 Dec 2000 | 8:20pm |
| Re: American Birds 'Little Gull' photo | Rob Parsons | Tue, 19 Dec 2000 | 8:29pm |
| Re: Niagara conference gull | Phil Davis | Wed, 20 Dec 2000 | 12:29am |
| Strange Little Gull Photo | Robert H. Lewis | Wed, 20 Dec 2000 | 9:01am |
| Re: Strange Little Gull Photo | norman van swelm | Wed, 20 Dec 2000 | 9:54am |
| Re: Strange Little Gull Photo | Dick Newell | Wed, 20 Dec 2000 | 10:27am |
| Little Gull | KACastelein and DJLa | Wed, 20 Dec 2000 | 11:38am |
| Re: Strange Little Gull Photo | Angus Wilson | Wed, 20 Dec 2000 | 11:43am |
| Re: Strange Little Gull Photo | Robert H. Lewis | Wed, 20 Dec 2000 | 12:16pm |
| re the Florida Little Gull | Martin Reid | Wed, 20 Dec 2000 | 1:51pm |
| King Eider in Spain | Ricard Gutierrez | Wed, 20 Dec 2000 | 5:28pm |
| American Birds 'Little Gull' photo | Cameron Eckert | Wed, 20 Dec 2000 | 6:01pm |
| Re: Strange Little Gull Photo | norman van swelm | Thu, 21 Dec 2000 | 3:28am |
| Re: odd gull at Niagara Conference | Alan Wormington | Thu, 21 Dec 2000 | 10:46am |
| Re: Strange Little Gull Photo | Alan Wormington | Thu, 21 Dec 2000 | 10:49am |
| Little Gull closed wing & head pattern | paullarkin | Thu, 21 Dec 2000 | 11:04am |
| Mystery falcon | Brian Small | Thu, 21 Dec 2000 | 1:51pm |
| Herring x LBB photos | Nick Rossiter | Thu, 21 Dec 2000 | 3:05pm |
| Re: Herring x LBB photos | Steve Hampton | Thu, 21 Dec 2000 | 3:34pm |
| Re: Strange Little Gull Photo | Kim Likakis | Thu, 21 Dec 2000 | 4:28pm |
| The Florida Little Gull - an explanation | Martin Reid | Thu, 21 Dec 2000 | 8:13pm |
| another old AB photo quiz | D. Heindel | Thu, 21 Dec 2000 | 8:30pm |
| Re: another old AB photo quiz | Alan Wormington | Fri, 22 Dec 2000 | 2:00pm |
| Re: The Florida Little Gull - an explanation | norman van swelm | Fri, 22 Dec 2000 | 4:31pm |
| Re; Little Gull / Ross' Gull | Clay Taylor | Sat, 23 Dec 2000 | 7:57am |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Easton, PA Gull (Last Post?)
From: Dave DeReamus <becard(AT)FAST.NET>
Date: 17 Dec 2000 12:57am
Hi again,
This will probably be my last post on the Easton, PA gull. I want to again
thank everyone who has responded.
In case you're interested, Robert Lewis and Martin Reid have posted two
additional photos of the bird sent to me by Alan Brady. They are available
at the following websites:
http://www.fordham.edu/lewis/birds/easton/easton.html
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp17.html
Since I have no experience with 'taimyrensis', my 'guess' (made on my
previous post) was made entirely on photos and information, hoping that
posting it would generate discussion either for or against it by the ones
out there who know. It has, and this proves how valuable a resource
'Frontiers' is to those of us who have questions that are above our level of
expertise.
I have basically accepted the fact that, as many have mentioned, there is a
very good possibility that this bird will never have a 'tag' put on it. As
I learned many years ago while volunteer counting at Hawk Mountain
Sanctuary, sometimes there are birds that have to go down on the records as
'unidentified'.
By the way, if I see this bird on our CBC, what do I call it? Oh,
nevermind!
Thanks to all and Happy Holidays!
Dave DeReamus
'Eastern PA Birdline' Compiler
Easton, PA
becard(AT)fast.net
Remember that birds can't read range maps!
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: the Easton, PA gull
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 17 Dec 2000 1:57pm
Dear all,
I'm not at all sure what this bird is, but I feel there are a number of
points that would not be normal for graellsii:
a) The mantle tone; fide Dave DeReamus, all of those who have seen the
actual bird agree that it looks too pale for LBBG, and Dave tells me that
most of the photos make the bird look too dark relative to the RBGUs. I
personally feel that even if we accept the relative mantle tone portrayed
in the images, it is still extremely pale for a graellsii; I'd love to see
pics of an undisputed LBBG that looks this pale.
b) Leg colour: in every image, the legs look distinctly orangy or
pinky-orange compared to the many RBGUs. Perhaps actual obervers could
clarify the exact colour/pattern on the legs:- were they of a uniform
colour on the tibia/tarsus? (we know there was pinkish in the webbing; was
there also pinkish on the rear of the legs?); in direct matching to RBGU
and HERG, how did they compare? from the photos I'd judge the colour to be
somewhere in-between, but clearly not the typical adult graellsii yellow.
c) the winter markings on the hindneck: these coalesce into large irregular
blotches more typical of other taxa but untypical of the more
finely-streaked graellsii. - here is a bird that is more typical:
http://www.martinreid.com/lbbgp12.html
d) the tail: it looks too long for graellsii, which is significantly
shorter-tailed than most large gulls. P8 is the longest visible primary,
and the tail tip extends 2/3rds of the way to it, almost reaching the tip
of P7 (this is unusual for graellsii, where it normally falls about
half-way - or less - between P6 and P7); the fully-grown wings will have P9
as the longest visible tip - or perhaps P10 will protrude very slightly
beyond P9; either way, if you project the likely full-grown tip position,
the "tertial tip to tail tip : tail tip to wing tip" ratio would be close
to 1 : 1. This is (IMHO) almost unheard-of in graellsii, where this ratio
is typically c. 1 : 1.5 or greater. Look at these pics of adult graellsii
with still-growing primaries, and I hope you'll agree that they present a
rather different structure to the mystery bird:
http://www.martinreid.com/lbbgp22.html
http://www.martinreid.com/lbbgp27.html
http://www.martinreid.com/lbbg0p03.html
http://www.martinreid.com/lbbg0p05.html
e) the primary mirrors: firstly the size of this bird (as large as some
smith. HERGs) must be rare for graellsii, and I think that only a very
large male could be this big. Thanks to the more-recent images we can see
that this bird has a rather small mirror of the half-grown P10 and none on
P9 (which is still growing and slightly shorter than P8). Such a
combination (a large male with smallish P10 mirror and no P9 mirror) is at
best extremely rare for graellsii - indeed some European experts have
personally quoted to me this potential combination as a great indicator for
heuglini.....
f) the pattern of P7 - P5: there seem to be clear whitish subterminal spots
between the grey tongue and the black band at the tip of these feathers
(perhaps the backlighting is exaggerating this effect, but even so, these
spots are surely present). This is apparently a fairly common feature in
heuglini but rare (how rare?) in graellsii.
g) The white trailing edge of the secondaries: this seems quite thick -
thicker than normal for graellsii.
Even if we assume that none of the above features on their own would
eliminate graellsii (perhaps a poor assumption), the combination of so many
individually-rare features in one bird does, I feel, reasonably rule out a
pure graellsii.
While some features may favour heuglini or possibly taimyrensis, there are
some that do not fit these taxa either (the tail for example, as heuglini
seems to be even shorter-tailed than graellsii - more like fuscus) and the
winter markings on the hindneck/breast.
Regretfully this leaves me leaning towards a hybrid, but not necessarily
graellsii x smithsonisnus. This combination, as Angus Wilson alluded to,
seems to be the catch-all for awkward birds, but do they really exist?
Some gull taxa are prone to interbreeding, but even back in Europe where
that opportunity would seem to be rampant, there are relatively few known
or suspected examples of graellsii x argenteus (Eurogullers please correct
me if I'm worng).
One species pair that DOES seem to interbreed in great numbers - to the
point that these hybrids outnumber pure birds in parts of their winter
range - are taimyrensis and the birulai form of vegae, known as vegaextaim.
hybrids. I have heard that the migration route of these hybrids is strongly
coastal, such that they move from their breeding grounds east of the taimyr
peninsula, due east along the Arctic coast, around the Chuchki peninsula
and down the western Pacific coast; surely such a route makes them a
reasonable candidate for occasional entry into the Nearctic region?
I not not profess to know anything about what vegextaim. looks like, but
there are a few published photos (e.g.
http://www.martinreid.com/vegup10.html), and it is easy to specualte that
the Easton bird can be explained by a combination of vegae and taimyrensis
features - maybe a backcross with vegae?
We seem stuck with choosing between the most obvious hybrid combo (smith. x
graellsii) for which there is no hard evidence that it really exists, OR,
an unlikley (but not implausible) combo (vegae x taim.) for which there is
plenty of evidence that it exists in good numbers.
Hopefully someone with experience of this particular hybrid group will
expand on this theme.
Regards,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com or http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Odd Oriole
From: Paul Conover <conover(AT)TALSTAR.COM>
Date: 17 Dec 2000 3:56pm
Birdband and Frontiers,
For the past week, I've been noticing, and videotaping, a female oriole
in
the oriole flock in my yard in Tallahassee. Today I finally netted and
banded the bird.
The bird is notable for its drabness and grayness. While many of the
features might seem good for its being a Bullock's, the head pattern and
perhaps the orange tints would seem better for Baltimore. Rather than give
a full description, I'll refer readers to the links below, with photos of
the bird in field and hand.
http://user.talstar.com/conover/oriole.html
http://user.talstar.com/conover/oriole2.html
Generally, by default, I'd consider a bird such as this in Baltimore
range
a dull Baltimore. However, in light of the mention of the median covert
pattern differences between Baltimore and Bullock's forwarded in the
[excellent and well-illustrated] oriole ID article in the August '98
"Birding", I had to wonder about this bird.
As is obvious in the pictures on my site, the bird has median coverts
closely matching the pattern cited for Bullock's. This, in addition to the
drabness of the bird, has me wondering if perhaps this bird has both
Baltimore and Bullock's genes. I believe intergrades are fairly common,
although getting one this far east would be ostensibly as rare as getting a
bona fide Bullock's.
Other possibilities would be that this bird is a pure Baltimore, and
that
the median covert pattern as a field mark is not 100%, or that this bird is
a Bullock's and that the head pattern is either not represented well in ID
material or that I'm just getting fooled by lack of experience with
variation in Bullock's.
Measurements are as follows:
wing 88
tail 71
exp. culmen 17.7
According to the ranges listed in Pyle, these measurements are in line
with Baltimore, and with the "parvus" subspecies of Bullock's, but too
short for the subspecies "bullockii". Intergrades, I'd guess, would be
variable.
I don't feel a great need to put a name to this bird, but I would like
to
understand the complex better.
Feel free to contact me directly with any info or input you might have,
or, if you have info that might be of interest to the list, to post it
there.
I'm sure I've left out important info, but it's somewhat cold in Hell
today, and the computer room is kind of drafty.
Thanks in advance,
Paul Conover
Tallahassee, FL
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: a new gull "Quiz"
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 17 Dec 2000 4:04pm
Dear all,
I solicite opinions about the following gull:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp19.html
The only thing I'll say at this point is: is this gull identifiable without
knowing where the photo was taken?
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com or http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Herring x LBB photos
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 18 Dec 2000 3:26pm
Angus asks if there are any of these photos on the web. Well, there are now.
I've got a backlog of photos and links to add to my gull site (next month's
chore), but I have just posted two images of a known Herring x LBB (from the
UK). It is at:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/argr1.htm
Incidently, there is also a photo of taimyrensis x vegae (birulai) (from Japan)
at:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/quiz9.htm
enjoy,
Steve Hampton
_____________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: another potential LBBG hybrid
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 18 Dec 2000 8:08pm
I wasn't going to post this description thinking it would do nothing but add
more mud to the dirty water stirred up by the Easton, PA bird. But after
seeing the photograph of the 'known' hybrid LBBG x HEGU from the UK I
thought I'd throw it into the pot anyway. By the way how is it 'known' that
the UK bird was hybrid? It looks like a Herring Gull in structure with a
slightly darker mantle and yellow legs. This is similar to a couple of
suspected such hybrids seen in Newfoundland.
The following description (photos still in the camera) is of a bird which to
my mind did not so much look like a Herring Gull with LBBG features, but
more like a Yellow-legged Gull. Yet the features wrong for a Yellow-legged
Gull (streaked head, orange orbital ring and drab yellow legs) would be
expected on a hybrid LBBG x HEGU.
On December 15, 2000 Paul Linegar and I found a gull with that rare shade of
gray between a Herring Gull and a graellsii Lesser Black-backed Gull among a
loafing flock of Herring Gull at St. John's, Newfoundland. It was resting on
its belly, mostly concealed from sight by two adult Herring Gulls. The
mantle colour, head streaking and pronounced angular gonydeal initially
suggested a Great Black-backed x Herring hybrid. Eventually the gulls
blocking a full view of the bird moved away. Now the size of the bird was
more apparent. It was similar in size to the Herring Gulls. The amount of
head streaking, and the colour of the orbital ring - orange, not the red of
Great Black-backed or Lesser Black-backed, suggested some Herring Gull blood
involved. Only a part of the folded leg on the left side of the bird was
visible. Was that a yellowish tint we could see? If it was, then a LBBG x
HEGU hybrid seemed the most likely candidate. This was worth getting
photographs of. It was fairly close - 20-25 meters. But it was on snow
and the sun was strong behind partial cloud cover making photography
guesswork, if not impossible when it comes to proper exposure for accurate
mantle colours. While working at getting the car at the best angle, it got
up on its feet and began walking about, jabbing its bill into the hard snow
as if eating it. The bird came to a stop facing us directly. This gave us a
very good view of the breast, head and legs. Front on the legs appeared
greenish. But in fact through a 30 x scope (bird filling the field of view)
the legs were dull yellow around the 'knee' joints, ankles and toes. The leg
between the knee and the ankle (tarsus) was a vague whitish-yellow. Later,
views from the side showed more extensive dirty pale yellow on side and rear
of entire leg length. Bets were high for a hybrid LBBG x HEGU. For the
next hour or so we continued viewing the bird at fairly close range and
worked on getting the best photos from within the car. The more we soaked
the bird in the less feasible it seemed for a hybrid LBBG x HEGU. Underneath
that streaked head and barely yellow legs was a familiar shape and build of
a Yellow-legged Gull. In the end the bird was stored in the Bank of the
Unidentified, put on hold indefinitely awaiting further information.
Description
SIZE and SHAPE - Slightly smaller than the average Newfoundland Herring
Gull. Bigger than some small Herrings. Not at all like the small headed and
long winged Lesser Black-backed Gull. Much like a Herring Gull with slightly
more attenuated rear i.e. folded wings when at rest.
MANTLE COLOUR - Gray. In the middle between a graellsii Lesser Black-backed
Gull and Newfoundland Herring Gull. Mantle changed colour depending on the
angle of the light. Sometimes looked as dark as a pale LBBG. Other times it
was difficult to pick out of Herring Gull flock at rest by mantle colour.
Could very easily be passed over on a quick scan. Tertial and scapular
crescents were white and similar width to adjacent Herring Gulls, but
because of darker upper parts were a little more outstanding.
LEGS - Generally dirty drab yellow. Strongest yellow in rough skin at
joints ('knee' and 'ankle') of leg. Front of tarsus washed out
whitish-yellow. Sides and back of tarsus more obvious yellow, but still
very drab. Not nearly as bright as typical winter graellsii or the six or
seven adult Yellow-legged Gulls seen in St. John's in the last ten years.
From a distance legs looked a dull unrecognizable colour but a different
shade of something from Herring Gulls at the same distance. Toes were drab
yellow, webs fleshy pink.
HEAD STREAKING - Streaking mainly confined to head. Dense, short,
pencil-like gray streaking on entire head. Streaking concentrated around
eye, foreword part of auriculars and forward half of crown. Forehead was
whitest part of the head, mostly white near the bill rapidly blending into
dense streaking on the top of forehead. Throat mainly unmarked. Rear of
crown, nape and back of uppermost neck with singularly spaced, distinct
pencil-like gray streaks, less dense than around eye and forward part of
crown. When walking about the bird looked white necked with a moderately
streaked head, the streaking concentrated around the eye and over the crown.
When the bird tucked its bill into its back to sleep, the shape of the head
streaking took on a whole different look. Through the gray streaked head a
distinct area of darker streaking formed an obvious cap on the forward part
of the head. The line of delineation starting below the eye, running into
auriculars then abruptly curving up over the mid crown. This was so
distinct it was surprising not to notice before it went into sleeping
position. The lower rear neck, front of neck, breast and rest of under
parts were immaculate white.
BILL - It was the combined shape of the head and bill that first altered our
thoughts about the hybrid idea. The bill was not particularly long, rather
stout, like a cut-off cigar. Relatively bold angle to gonydeal angle.
Culmen ridge dropping off sharply giving a blunt end to bulbous bill tip.
Bill moderately bright yellow including basal 60%. Gonydeal spot, large and
red, not quite reaching tip of lower mandible and not crossing over to upper
mandible. In centre of red spot, adjacent the cutting edge of the bill was
a light black smudge. No black on upper mandible.
HEAD SHAPE - Head shape changed depending on activity such as walking,
resting or preening. But on average a long level crown falling to a steep
drop at the nape and a short steep forehead.
PRIMARY TIPS - Through preening and two views in flight we were able to
determine some of the primary tip details. P10 had a large white mirror
completely crossing both webs. It was separated from the white tip by a
thin broken black bar extending across the entire inner web but only half
way across the outer web. The white mirror, though prominent, was not as
long as many of the white tips on P10 of the local Herring Gulls. P9 did
not appear to have a window though views were not adequate during preening
to clearly determine this. In flight there seemed to be just one mirror,
except when landing a possible small mirror was seen on P9. Fairly thick
complete black bar on P5. Thin white bar trimming inside of P5 bar. P4 not
well seen. In flight a large black wing tip with one prominent white mirror
was the seen. New winter primaries fully grown. Also in flight a thin
white trailing edge to the secondaries and inner primaries contrasting with
gray upper parts was eye catching.
ORBITAL RING and EYE - Orbital ring was brilliant intense orange, almost
red-orange. Unlike the golden-yellow or pale orange-yellow or the typical
Newfoundland Herring Gull. Not red like Great Black-backed Gull or Lesser
Black-backed Gull. The fleshy material seemed broader and more ample in
size than the Herring Gulls.
DISCUSSION
The size and shape of the bird from head to toe was similar to the few
Yellow-legged Gulls that we've identified and photographed in St. John's.
The head streaking was within the range of the atlantis race of
Yellow-legged Gull from the Azores. The Jars Jonsson illustration in Alula
3/98 Vol. 4 page 93 of a winter adult Azorean Yellow-legged Gull in winter
fits this bird very well. But all the literature says the streaking should
be gone by December. The orbital ring of Yellow-legged Gull is stated by
most experts as being red or occasionally orange-red. The orbital ring on
this bird was deep orange was not really red. The legs were rather pale
yellow. Azorean Yellow-legged Gulls are said to keep their heading
streaking longer into the winter even occasionally into breeding season.
There is mystery shrouding Azorean Yellow-legged Gulls. Most people seem to
base their knowledge on the few published photographs. This bird would be
breaking the current boundaries of knowledge if it was a full winter plumage
Azorean Yellow-legged Gull, but it would help explain the drab yellow legs
and head streaking, and possibly the orange orbital ring.
LBBG x HEGU hybrid possibility cannot be ruled out. The head streaking
pattern on both LBBG and Newfoundland smithsonianus usually continues down
to the base of the neck. Some Newfoundland smithsonianus have winter
streaking restricted to the head. The orange orbital ring is suggestive of
Herring Gull genes. It was more intense orange than the huge majority of
local smithsonianus. The drab yellow legs and intermediate mantle colour
are compromises between LBBG and HEGU.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Easton PA gull et al
From: paullarkin <paullarkin(AT)PGEN.NET>
Date: 19 Dec 2000 11:03am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
What Ho!
Either there are a lot of HGXLBBG hybrids in the USA or a lot of funny =
HGs (the latter is my guess). To be a bit more serious there is a photo =
of a known adult breeding plumage HG (argenteus) X LBBG (graellsii) in =
British Birds vol90 p381 plate 139. This was photographed at a known =
mixed breeding colony on Skokholm Island where, I believe, the cross has =
been fully documented by the wardens there. The caption reads " =
superficially resembles YLG , owing to mid grey upperparts, " (too dark =
for the PA bird?) "argenteus X graellsii hybrid typically lacks =
structural and facial characteristics of michahellis. Legs dull =
yellowish-flesh, but bill brightly coloured. Orbital ring usually =
orangey or reddish-orange". This is part of an extensive review of =
identification features of both forms of YLG contained in vol 90 =
including extensive photographs. Well worth getting hold of if you do =
not already have a copy. As is usual with BB The article is much more =
detailed than some of the more superficial articles published elsewhere =
in the British press (eg Birding World) and on the internet.
Cheers
Paul
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: cachinnans
From: Brian Small <BrianJSmall(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 19 Dec 2000 12:41pm
All
I saw an article in a Swedish magazine at the British Museum ('Far
Vagelwald', I think) by Lars Svensson explaining the pronunciation of
'cachinnans', as in Larus cachinnans (Caspian Gull). In my ignorance I have
been saying it kash-in-ans, but apparently it is said 'kack-in-ans'.
I always worry about sounding stupid in front of those that know these
things. Are there any other latin names that are not what they seem. How do
you say 'smithsonianus', 'vegae', 'kumlieni', etc., etc.? Or does it not
really matter? I would be interested to know.
Brian Small
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: cachinnans
From: Calvin Gehlen <calvin(AT)INISYSTEMS.COM>
Date: 19 Dec 2000 1:00pm
As far as I know:
smith-sew-knee-AY-nus
VAY-ga
KUM-lee-en-eye
Happy Birding!
Calvin Gehlen
Vancouver, BC
calvin(AT)gobirding.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On Behalf Of Brian Small
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 11:41 AM
To:
Subject: [BIRDWG01] cachinnans
All
I saw an article in a Swedish magazine at the British Museum ('Far
Vagelwald', I think) by Lars Svensson explaining the pronunciation of
'cachinnans', as in Larus cachinnans (Caspian Gull). In my ignorance I have
been saying it kash-in-ans, but apparently it is said 'kack-in-ans'.
I always worry about sounding stupid in front of those that know these
things. Are there any other latin names that are not what they seem. How
do
you say 'smithsonianus', 'vegae', 'kumlieni', etc., etc.? Or does it not
really matter? I would be interested to know.
Brian Small
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: American Birds 'Little Gull' photo
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 19 Dec 2000 2:27pm
Everyone,
Just a follow-up to the 2nd last paragraph in Bill's posting below. I
can assure you that the photo published in American Birds was in fact of
the Little Gull that we found in Florida. By the way, the person with me
at the time was Doug McRae, who was the discoverer of the first Ross's
Gull nest in North America (at Churchill) -- now that's a coincidence!
I wasn't even aware of the photo being shown in San Diego, nor of the
analysis by Guy McCaskie. But it certainly does add to a very
interesting story.
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:06:56 -0800 Bill or Sue Smith
<birdsmiths(AT)HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
> FWIW, I have a crystal-clear memory of this incident, and the
> story may
> be worth retelling.
>
> I may have been the only person who picked up on this photo when
> it was
> published in mid-1979. I had an exchange with the regional and
> subregional
> editors of AB at the time. The subregional editor in particular,
> who was
> one of those who saw the bird, was incensed that I should question
> the
> bird's identification as Little rather than Ross's.
>
> I let the matter pass until the Sept. 1979 WFO field trip off
> San
> Diego, when I brought it up during a bull session on possibly
> mis-identified photos. Guy McCaskie was sufficiently intrigued that
> he
> later studied the published photo in great detail and wrote a
> widely-circulated, several-page analysis as to why the bird was
> surely a
> Ross's, not a Little.
>
> His letter unleashed "the rest of the story". Apparently Alan
> Wormington took several photos of the Florida gull, all of which
> were
> submitted to the AB subregional editor. The group of photos was
> passed up
> the chain-of-command finally to the AB staff in New York, who chose
> the
> photo actually published. They chose the photo that was sharpest,
> without
> considering what it looked like. When the entire group of photos
> was
> passed along by Alan to Guy, myself, and others, we all agreed that
> the
> other photos clearly showed a Little Gull, not a Ross's.
>
> Whether the published photo is a truly misleading image of the
> Little
> Gull in Florida, or a mislabelled photo of a Ross's from elsewhere
> taken at
> another time, possibly even by someone else, is an issue only Alan
> can
> address. There is no question from the rest of the evidence that
> the bird
> actually present in Florida that winter was a Little.
>
> I suppose the moral of this story is: never let someone choose a
> photo
> of a rarity to be published who is far-removed from the matter
> itself :-)
>
> Bill
> -----------------
> The Smiths
> Grays Harbor, Washington USA
> birdsmiths(AT)hotmail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Niagara conference gull
From: richard stern <rbstern(AT)NS.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 19 Dec 2000 6:23pm
Hello,
I was at the excellent 1st Birder's Journal Gull Conference at Niagara
Falls recently, as were many other members of this group. On the Sat.
afternoon and again on the Sunday morning I watched, together with numerous
well-known birders far more experienced than I am, an adult gull that at the
time no-one was prepared to call. It was above the barge near the
International Control Stucture, both days, seen both swimming and flying
(but I never saw it standing). It was Herring Gull size and shape, but the
mantle and upper wings were a good shade darker than all the other Herring
Gulls around it - good enough for a pale graelsii perhaps, but the legs were
definitely pink, with no hint of yellow. The entire head was quite dusky,
and the bill was long with parallel- upper and lower mandibles. The black in
the primaries was reduced compared to HEGUs, but seemed to occupy both webs
of the outermost primaries, unlike Thayer's. At the time some people were
speculating about California, but quickly dismissed that, and HEGU x LBBG or
GBBG hybrid. Has anyone who was there had any further thoughts, or was it
ever positively ID'd?
Thanks,
####################
Richard Stern
Kentville
Nova Scotia
Canada
rbstern(AT)ns.sympatico.ca
####################
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: American Birds 'Little Gull' photo
From: Andrew Kratter <kratter(AT)FLMNH.UFL.EDU>
Date: 19 Dec 2000 8:20pm
FrontiersFolk,
because I have yet to see any decent explanation as to why the 1979 Florida
photo in American Birds (p. 279) is a Little Gull, because everyone I have
shown or sent the photo to thinks it is a Ross' Gull, because few have
access to American Bird volumes from 1979,and because our webmaster will
not post the photo because of copyright problems, I am making available a
limited time offer: I'll send you a scanned image (attached jpeg image,
about 200K) if I receive a request before 3 PM tomorrow (EST- Wednesday 20
December). Please don't ask afterwards -- I am leaving town.
What I ask in return: Please, Please, Please, tell me why this is a Little
Gull (and not because someone you think is a hotshot thinks its is -- I
mean fieldmarks! -- right now the only hotshot in my book is Matt Hafner),
and someone out there put it the image on your website and let the world know.
Sincerely,
Andy Kratter
Andrew W. Kratter
Collections Manager, Ornithology
Florida Museum of Natural History
PO Box 117800
University of Florida
Gainesville, FL 32611
phone 352-392-3293
fax 352-846-0287
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: American Birds 'Little Gull' photo
From: Rob Parsons <rparsons(AT)ICENTER.NET>
Date: 19 Dec 2000 8:29pm
Andrew Kratter wrote, in part:
>> I am making available a
limited time offer: I'll send you a scanned image (attached jpeg image,
about 200K) if I receive a request before 3 PM tomorrow (EST- Wednesday 20
December). >>
snipped material
>>and someone out there put it the image on your website and let the world
know.>>
Alas, I lack a web-site. So, how about it--Martin Reid, Bob Lewis, Joe
Morlan, Steve Hampton?
Cheers,
Rob
Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
rparsons(AT)icenter.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Niagara conference gull
From: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2000 12:29am
RIchard -
Martin Reid posted a photo of this gull on his web site. His message is below.
Phil
>From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Unusual gull from Niagara Conference
>To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>
>Dear all,
>I've been asked to post this message so that those who saw this unusual
>gull at Niagara can look at the image - and hopefully to solicite
>discussion on Id-Frontiers.
>http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp18.html
>Cheers,
>Martin
At 09:20 PM 12/19/2000 -0400, richard stern wrote:
>Hello,
>
> I was at the excellent 1st Birder's Journal Gull Conference at Niagara
>Falls recently, as were many other members of this group. On the Sat.
>afternoon and again on the Sunday morning I watched, together with numerous
>well-known birders far more experienced than I am, an adult gull that at the
>time no-one was prepared to call. It was above the barge near the
>International Control Stucture, both days, seen both swimming and flying
>(but I never saw it standing). It was Herring Gull size and shape, but the
>mantle and upper wings were a good shade darker than all the other Herring
>Gulls around it - good enough for a pale graelsii perhaps, but the legs were
>definitely pink, with no hint of yellow. The entire head was quite dusky,
>and the bill was long with parallel- upper and lower mandibles. The black in
>the primaries was reduced compared to HEGUs, but seemed to occupy both webs
>of the outermost primaries, unlike Thayer's. At the time some people were
>speculating about California, but quickly dismissed that, and HEGU x LBBG or
>GBBG hybrid. Has anyone who was there had any further thoughts, or was it
>ever positively ID'd?
==================================
Phil Davis Davidsonville, Maryland USA
mailto:PDavis(AT)ix.netcom.com
==================================
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Strange Little Gull Photo
From: "Robert H. Lewis" <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 20 Dec 2000 9:01am
Hi,
Andy Kratter forwarded to me the controversial photo of the Florida Little
Gull. I have posted it to:
http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/littgull/littg.html
Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY
http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/gulls.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Strange Little Gull Photo
From: norman van swelm <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 20 Dec 2000 9:54am
> Andy Kratter forwarded to me the controversial photo of the Florida
Little
>Gull. I have posted it to:
>
>http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/littgull/littg.html
>
>Bob Lewis
I would put my money on Ross's based on the shape of the bill
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Strange Little Gull Photo
From: Dick Newell <Dick.Newell(AT)SMALLWORLD.CO.UK>
Date: 20 Dec 2000 10:27am
re: http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/littgull/littg.html
Norman said
"I would put my money on Ross's based on the shape of the bill"
Come on Norman, it's a gull and we all know that any gull can look like any
other gull, given the right circumstances e.g. over-exposed, out of focus
picture :-). Seriously though, the reflected highlight looks to be on the
end of the bill, but when I blow up the low resolution scan, I think the
bill extends way beyond this and, if so, would be an appropriate length for
Little Gull. It really needs a higher resolution scan.
Dick
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Little Gull
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:38am
It seems that from the original observers that the bird in question was
a Little Gull. What I wonder is do all the other pictures that we
haven't seen show the same characteristics that this picture shows?
Based on looking at this picture, I have to agree with Matt and Andrew
that this bird appears much more like a Ross's then a Little. Yet
everyone who saw the bird says its a Little. Andrew keeps asking the
question why with no good qualitative response from anyone. Do the
other photos of this bird clearly show dark head markings, darker wings,
etc? And if so, then why is this bird the same bird? I am beginning to
believe that this must be a wrong photo, ie, it is not the Little Gull
but some Ross's Gull from some other place. Could any of the other
photos be put on the web for us all to see - I think this would be an
enlightening experience to all? Is this really just a poorly chosen
photo, a poorly taken photo, or a mistake? Wondering.....
Dave
--
Dave Lauten and Kathy Castelein
Bandon, OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Strange Little Gull Photo
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)ENDEAVOR.MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:43am
I agree that the published photo looks remarkably like a Ross's Gull.
However, I thought the main point of contention was that this
identification is not borne out in other photos of the same bird. Is
there any way we can see some of the other photos of the Florida gull to
complete the Little vs Ross's saga?
Certainly this is a good lesson in being very careful of retrospective
identifications from photos. Probably every records committee is the
world has dealt with rare birds seen "on film only". I would urge
caution in such cases unless there is a compelling series of photos or
the bird was recognized as something important/different before being
photographed. I am sure everyone with an extensive slide collection
could dig out individual shots that look like something they are not.
Many good quiz bird photos are in this category although the addition of
a label (This is a so and so....) can change the dynamics through the
strong power of suggestion.
Also, I am curious about the copyright issue. For fear of a law suit, I
have always avoided public display of images scanned from published
sources (magazines or books), unless I get written permission from the
publisher. Is Bob Lewis infringing copyright (held by American Birds or
National Audubon) by placing a scanned version on his web site? How long
does the copyright last? I assume a scan of Alan Wormington's original
image would be ok?
I am sure there are legal eagles out there who can advise - pro bono, I
hope! I know copyright law is a well outside the scope of ID-Frontiers,
but think some discussion of the extent to which published material can
be reproduced on the web is relevant. Afterall, we don't want Bob or
anyone else to get into legal hot water by helping us all out. It would
certainly be nice to be able to scan reference shots or plates from
obscure sources to support ID-Frontiers discussions.
Angus Wilson
***********************************
New York City
tel: (212) 263-0206
Fax: (212) 263-8276
E-mail: wilsoa02(AT)popmail.med.nyu.edu
Bird ID Web Site: http://www.best.com/~petrel/index.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Strange Little Gull Photo
From: "Robert H. Lewis" <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 20 Dec 2000 12:16pm
on 12/20/00 12:32 PM, Dick Newell at Dick.Newell(AT)SMALLWORLD.CO.UK wrote:
> re: http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/littgull/littg.html
>
> Norman said
>
> "I would put my money on Ross's based on the shape of the bill"
>
> Come on Norman, it's a gull and we all know that any gull can look like any
> other gull, given the right circumstances e.g. over-exposed, out of focus
> picture :-). Seriously though, the reflected highlight looks to be on the
> end of the bill, but when I blow up the low resolution scan, I think the
> bill extends way beyond this and, if so, would be an appropriate length for
> Little Gull. It really needs a higher resolution scan.
> Dick
No, I looked carefully at the scan I was sent. The bill does indeed end
at the highlight.
I just added a second grayscale image and a better version of the
original.
Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY
http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/gulls.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: re the Florida Little Gull
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 20 Dec 2000 1:51pm
Dear all,
I have obtained permission from Alan Wormington to display "that" photo at
my site; Alan will also be sending me more original photos of this bird via
snail-mail, and I will scan them for display.
Within 24 hours from now, I'll add a web page with that photo plus some of
my own images of B1 Ross's Gull, and possibly some other published ones too.
I will email ID-F when the web page is ready, and I'll notify you when I've
got Alan's originals scanned and in-place, but this may take a while.
Hang on in there!
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com or http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: King Eider in Spain
From: Ricard Gutierrez <GUTARB(AT)terra.es>
Date: 20 Dec 2000 5:28pm
Hello:
Sketches, B&W drawings and photos of the 1st winter male King Eider
(Somateria spectabilis), 2nd for the country, currently present at Laxe,
Galicia, NW Spain, are now online at Rare Birds in Spain website
(http://www.terra.es/personal3/gutarb ).
Thank you for having a look
Ricard Gutiérrez
21.12.2000
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: American Birds 'Little Gull' photo
From: Cameron Eckert <cameron.eckert(AT)GOV.YK.CA>
Date: 20 Dec 2000 6:01pm
Hello all;
In considering the identification of the Florida bird I point to the
following images:
1) Here is a first-winter LIGU with a rather poorly defined dark cap:
http://members.tripod.com/~tbrc/litgullx.jpg
2) Here is a striking juvenile (September) LIGU, but again the cap is not
as dark as expected, and the primary pattern is very close to the Florida bird:
http://www.zoo.uib.no/~falken/gull/minjuvc.php3
http://www.zoo.uib.no/~falken/gull/l_minutus_juvc.jpg
3) Here is a first-winter ROGU which shows much less extensive black in the
primaries than the Florida bird:
http://www.focusonnature.com/Ross'GullJapanPhoto.htm
A careful comparison of the extent and pattern of black in the folded
primaries on photos 2 & 3 (above) with the single image of the Florida bird
supports the identification of the Florida bird as a Little Gull.
Regards,
Cameron Eckert
Whitehorse, Yukon
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Strange Little Gull Photo
From: norman van swelm <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 21 Dec 2000 3:28am
-->Norman said
>
>"I would put my money on Ross's based on the shape of the bill"
>
Dick responded:
>Come on Norman, it's a gull and we all know that any gull can look like any
>other gull, given the right circumstances e.g. over-exposed, out of focus
>picture :-). Seriously though, the reflected highlight looks to be on the
>end of the bill, but when I blow up the low resolution scan, I think the
>bill extends way beyond this and, if so, would be an appropriate length for
>Little Gull. It really needs a higher resolution scan.
May it be some comfort to you Dick: I always loose bets when money is
involved!
Merry Christmas all!
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: odd gull at Niagara Conference
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2000 10:46am
Everyone,
I was one of the observers that saw this bird. I wasn't aware that it
had been seen on the Saturday, but when I found it on Sunday my initial
thought was "California Gull" due to the correct mantle colour for that
species. But a mere few seconds of additional viewing clearly eliminated
that species for the reasons already described by others. My personal
opinion is that only Herring X Lesser Black-backed might be a
possibility, but this would be a difficult case to argue since such a
hybrid type might not have any features that would seem to be conclusive
for such a bird -- and it would have helped if the bird had been much
closer.
I have a saying -- "If you can't identify a gull within 10 mintues,
you're out of luck!"
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:48:04 -0500 Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)juno.com>
writes:
>
>
> --------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:28:09 -0500
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Niagara conference gull
> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001220022623.02f0d580@127.0.0.1>
>
> RIchard -
>
> Martin Reid posted a photo of this gull on his web site. His
> message is below.
>
> Phil
>
>
> >From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
> >Subject: [BIRDWG01] Unusual gull from Niagara Conference
> >To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> >
> >Dear all,
> >I've been asked to post this message so that those who saw this
> unusual
> >gull at Niagara can look at the image - and hopefully to solicite
> >discussion on Id-Frontiers.
> >http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp18.html
> >Cheers,
> >Martin
>
>
>
> At 09:20 PM 12/19/2000 -0400, richard stern wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> > I was at the excellent 1st Birder's Journal Gull Conference at
> Niagara
> >Falls recently, as were many other members of this group. On the
> Sat.
> >afternoon and again on the Sunday morning I watched, together with
> numerous
> >well-known birders far more experienced than I am, an adult gull
> that at the
> >time no-one was prepared to call. It was above the barge near the
> >International Control Stucture, both days, seen both swimming and
> flying
> >(but I never saw it standing). It was Herring Gull size and shape,
> but the
> >mantle and upper wings were a good shade darker than all the other
> Herring
> >Gulls around it - good enough for a pale graelsii perhaps, but the
> legs were
> >definitely pink, with no hint of yellow. The entire head was quite
> dusky,
> >and the bill was long with parallel- upper and lower mandibles. The
> black in
> >the primaries was reduced compared to HEGUs, but seemed to occupy
> both webs
> >of the outermost primaries, unlike Thayer's. At the time some
> people were
> >speculating about California, but quickly dismissed that, and HEGU
> x LBBG or
> >GBBG hybrid. Has anyone who was there had any further thoughts, or
> was it
> >ever positively ID'd?
>
> ==================================
> Phil Davis Davidsonville, Maryland USA
> mailto:PDavis(AT)ix.netcom.com
> ==================================
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Strange Little Gull Photo
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2000 10:49am
Re any copyright issue, I assume since it was acknowledged that the photo
was originally published in American Birds that this is acceptable.
In essence American Birds did not pay me for the use of the photo, so I
am the sole holder of the copyright as far as I am concerned. Provided
the photo is not used for commercial purposes, I am actually pleased to
see it used and discussed in the current format.
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:44:02 -0400 Angus Wilson
<wilsoa02(AT)ENDEAVOR.MED.NYU.EDU> writes:
> I agree that the published photo looks remarkably like a Ross's Gull.
> However, I thought the main point of contention was that this
> identification is not borne out in other photos of the same bird. Is
> there any way we can see some of the other photos of the Florida
> gull to
> complete the Little vs Ross's saga?
>
> Certainly this is a good lesson in being very careful of
> retrospective
> identifications from photos. Probably every records committee is the
> world has dealt with rare birds seen "on film only". I would urge
> caution in such cases unless there is a compelling series of photos
> or
> the bird was recognized as something important/different before
> being
> photographed. I am sure everyone with an extensive slide collection
> could dig out individual shots that look like something they are
> not.
> Many good quiz bird photos are in this category although the
> addition of
> a label (This is a so and so....) can change the dynamics through
> the
> strong power of suggestion.
>
> Also, I am curious about the copyright issue. For fear of a law
> suit, I
> have always avoided public display of images scanned from published
> sources (magazines or books), unless I get written permission from
> the
> publisher. Is Bob Lewis infringing copyright (held by American Birds
> or
> National Audubon) by placing a scanned version on his web site? How
> long
> does the copyright last? I assume a scan of Alan Wormington's
> original
> image would be ok?
>
> I am sure there are legal eagles out there who can advise - pro
> bono, I
> hope! I know copyright law is a well outside the scope of
> ID-Frontiers,
> but think some discussion of the extent to which published material
> can
> be reproduced on the web is relevant. Afterall, we don't want Bob or
> anyone else to get into legal hot water by helping us all out. It
> would
> certainly be nice to be able to scan reference shots or plates from
> obscure sources to support ID-Frontiers discussions.
>
> Angus Wilson
>
>
> ***********************************
> New York City
> tel: (212) 263-0206
> Fax: (212) 263-8276
> E-mail: wilsoa02(AT)popmail.med.nyu.edu
> Bird ID Web Site: http://www.best.com/~petrel/index.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Little Gull closed wing & head pattern
From: paullarkin <paullarkin(AT)PGEN.NET>
Date: 21 Dec 2000 11:04am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
What Ho!
Whilst wishing not to draw any firm conclusions from a poorly exposed =
photo I can perhaps answer two points from field experience. Firstly the =
closed wing pattern of 1st year Little Gull often shows a "saw tooth" =
pattern as in the photo (a good way to eliminate 1st year Bonaparte's), =
however usually the white hooks back along the primary tip. This detail =
may be lost in this photo. Secondly the head can show what appears to be =
only a black spot as in the photo, however such birds always show a grey =
ghost of a cap, again this may get lost in what looks like an =
overexposed photo. This pattern can be seen on plate 5 on p 181 of =
Enticott & Tipling's photographic guide to the Seabirds of the World. =
The head shape and bill length should not be judged due to the =
overexposure and the dark background. I have no experience of Ross's but =
although the bill does look short on photos it is also thicker which I =
suspect may make it look shorter than it really is cf Little Gull. Hope =
this helps. Meanwhile we await better quality photos if they exist.
Cheers
Paul
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Mystery falcon
From: Brian Small <BrianJSmall(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2000 1:51pm
BIRDWG01ers
A mystery photograph section at www.surfbirds.com shows two images of a
falcon, taken at Mandria, Cyprus. A number of opinions exist about the
identity of this falcon: Amur Falcon; Red-footed Falcon; hybrid
PeregrinexRed-foot or PeregrinexAmur.
These opinions raise a number of questions I wonder if anyone can answer.
1. Have any hybrid falcons ever been noted in the wild, or are they a
totally false (and oddly perverse) creation of falconers?
2. If they have, has anybody ever noted hybridisation between Amur Falcon
Falco amurensis and Red-footed Falcon Falco vespertinus? Do they meet
anywhere across Asia? - obviously they do in winter.
3. Does anyone have a further opinion about the identity of the falcon?
Many thanks, Brian Small
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Herring x LBB photos
From: Nick Rossiter <nrossiter(AT)SUPANET.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2000 3:05pm
Hi!
A paper with some solid evidence on LBBG x HG hybrids is "Hybridization of
Herring and Lesser Black-backed Gulls in Britain" by M.P.Harris, C.Morley
and G.H.Green, Bird Study 25:161-166 (1978).
The work resulted from cross-fostering experiments -- the hatching and
rearing of a young gull by adults of another species. The 'confused' young
gulls returned to the colonies and formed mixed pairings. Hybrid young were
traced through colour rings. Three definite hybrid young returned to the
colonies as adults. Their characteristics were intermediate to HG/LBBG. The
authors suggest that any HG/LBBG with a mid-grey mantle, pale yellow legs
and an orange-yellow eye ring in the breeding season can be assumed to be a
hybrid. Some hybrid skins (definite and possible) were obtained and at least
some are in the British Museum.
The summary suggests that if it were not for the cross-fostering
experiments, the hybrids would be very rare. The summary concludes: "
Remarkably few hybrids are known in comparison with the numbers of mixed
pairs that have resulted from cross-fostering in Dyfed and Cumbrian
colonies; the hybrids must be at some great selective disadvantage."
To return to the two 'known' hybrids submitted to this list.
The one at:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/argr1.htm
is not carrying any rings to confirm its parentage; also why is it not a
"Cantabricans" Atlantic YLG? They are closer to argenteus than graellsii in
some respects: many call like argenteus, the mantle shade is between that of
michahellis and argenteus and the orbital ring and gonydal spot may be
orange-red. But they do have clear yellow legs. See: Dick Newell's photos of
Cantabrican on Martin Reid's pages at: http://www.martinreid.com/gullinx.htm
and my own of Cantabrican at:
http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/
The other one:
>HG (argenteus) X LBBG (graellsii) in British Birds vol90 p381 plate 139.
<snip>
>The caption reads "
>superficially resembles YLG , owing to mid grey upperparts, " (too dark for
the PA bird?) "argenteus
>X graellsii hybrid typically lacks structural and facial characteristics of
michahellis. Legs dull
>yellowish-flesh, but bill brightly coloured. Orbital ring usually orangey
or reddish-orange".
This also does not appear to be proven (no rings). It is worth adding that
the vast majority of Atlantic YLG do not have the structural and facial
characteristics of [Mediterranean] michahellis. The orbital ring on northern
Atlantic YLG can also be orange-red in some birds. In this case perhaps the
colour of the legs in the breeding season is the best pointer to a hybrid.
Such a leg colour in autumn would however not be unusual in YLG.
Like Paul I suspect that too many HG x LBBG are being reported and that some
of the assignments would better be made to strange HGs. Some may also be
YLGs in the broader sense, that is YLG but not Mediterranean michahellis or
nominate cachinnans.
Best wishes ... Nick
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Herring x LBB photos
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 21 Dec 2000 3:34pm
Many have asked how is it that the photos at
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/argr1.htm
are "known" to be of a hybrid. Unfortunately, I've misplaced the note that came
with the photos, so I've lost the photographer's name and comments (are you out
there on ID Frontiers). I believe the photos were taken at a Herring Gull
colony in the UK. I also recall the note said the bird resembled at
Yellow-legged Gull (which, of course, it does) but that the mantle had a
different tone (bluer?) than Yellow-legged. As soon as I learn more, I will
post it.
Steve Hampton
_____________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Strange Little Gull Photo
From: Kim Likakis <lockp38(AT)SOVER.NET>
Date: 21 Dec 2000 4:28pm
From Alan Wormington:
>Re any copyright issue, I assume since it was acknowledged that the photo
>was originally published in American Birds that this is acceptable.<<
Not true re any copyright issue. If the creator of a photo were adamant
about denying use, its having been previously published would not confer
additional use *even* with an attribution. Aside from your being amenable
to its use here, what does legally argue its usability in this forum is the
fact that ID Frontiers can reasonably be considered a noncommercial (what
you alluded to in your later statement) and scholarly forum, dedicated to
discussion and research, and in this light the photo's use would likely
fall under the "Fair Use" doctrine of the Copyright laws. I would always
clearly attribute copyright in using it nonetheless.
>In essence American Birds did not pay me for the use of the photo, so I
>am the sole holder of the copyright as far as I am concerned.
Even if American Birds did pay you, unless you specifically signed over
your copyright to them, this photo belongs to you and you retain copyright.
In essence, American Birds would have a "one-time right" to run this photo
and you should be attributed in the magazine. Your photo reverts to pubic
use for all purposes 50 years after your death.
(I am not a lawyer but a graphic designer for web and print, and I deal
with this issue often. If anyone has another take on the subject I would
welcome any discussion, although I'm not sure it remains on topic. As
everyone is aware, the Web has spawned alarming copyright violations;
anyone who places a creative work in the medium must acknowledge that it
can be appropriated effortlessly.)
Kim Likakis
Blue Runner Design
Bennington, Vermont
lockp38(AT)sover.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: The Florida Little Gull - an explanation
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 21 Dec 2000 8:13pm
Dear all,
I have created a web page that hopefully explains and demonstrates why this
bird is a Little Gull:
http://www.martinreid.com/ligup01.html
Feel free to comment, and if possible provide examples if your conclusion
differs from mine.
I'd like to thank Alan Wormington, Richard Millington and Paul Archer for
their assistance in preparing this page, BUT I accept full responsibility
for the content.
Thanks,
Martin
Martin Reid
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com or http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: another old AB photo quiz
From: "D. Heindel" <birdfish(AT)earthlink.net>
Date: 21 Dec 2000 8:30pm
Hi IDfrontiersfolk,
While on the subject of old American Birds photos..... One has troubled
me for some time. May 1977 issue (old small format) with the great
Laysan shot on the cover is the one you'll need. The Northeast Maritime
Reg. mentions a 'bird of the season' in a 'S.A.' on page 309, a McCown's
Longspur. While I have NO doubt about the report, a color picture
allegedly of the bird, on page 293 (middle) is bothersome. I guess it's
just my ignorance, but can someone explain why this bird in the photo is
a McCown's, and why it is not a Lapland? I don't mind being stuipid if
I can learn something out of it :) !
happy CBC's,
Mitch
Mitch Heindel birdfish(AT)earthlink.net Torrance,CA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: another old AB photo quiz
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 22 Dec 2000 2:00pm
Everyone,
Without actually looking at that issue of American Birds, I distinctly
recall that the photo IS of a Lapland Longspur. But in fact there
actually was a McCown's Longspur present and I believe in a later issue
they published a correct photo -- that of the actual McCown's.
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
On Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:29:21 -0800 "D. Heindel" <birdfish(AT)earthlink.net>
writes:
> Hi IDfrontiersfolk,
>
> While on the subject of old American Birds photos..... One has
> troubled
> me for some time. May 1977 issue (old small format) with the great
> Laysan shot on the cover is the one you'll need. The Northeast
> Maritime
> Reg. mentions a 'bird of the season' in a 'S.A.' on page 309, a
> McCown's
> Longspur. While I have NO doubt about the report, a color picture
> allegedly of the bird, on page 293 (middle) is bothersome. I guess
> it's
> just my ignorance, but can someone explain why this bird in the
> photo is
> a McCown's, and why it is not a Lapland? I don't mind being
> stuipid if
> I can learn something out of it :) !
>
> happy CBC's,
> Mitch
> Mitch Heindel birdfish(AT)earthlink.net Torrance,CA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: The Florida Little Gull - an explanation
From: norman van swelm <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 22 Dec 2000 4:31pm
Martin Reid wrote:
>I have created a web page that hopefully explains and demonstrates why this
>bird is a Little Gull:
>http://www.martinreid.com/ligup01.html
>Feel free to comment, and if possible provide examples if your conclusion
>differs from mine.
>I'd like to thank Alan Wormington, Richard Millington and Paul Archer for
>their assistance in preparing this page, BUT I accept full responsibility
>for the content.
You seem to have fixed my idea that the Florida bird is a Ross's if
anything!
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re; Little Gull / Ross' Gull
From: Clay Taylor <CTaylor(AT)WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Date: 23 Dec 2000 7:57am
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All -
Martin's feather-by-feather dissection is very convincing, and the =
AB photo seems to bear out his conclusions pretty well. However, my =
initial reaction to the AB photo was it's jizz - it fits every Little =
Gull I have ever seen (I have chummed them to within 20 feet of my canoe =
at South Cove, Old Saybrook, CT) with its long, thin neck; small, almost =
pigeon-like head; and the abruptly-elevated tail and wingtips while in =
the water - a field mark that I have pointed out to others as making it =
sit on the water like a "little kid's toy boat". That characteristic is =
enough to help a relatively inexperienced observer pick a Little out of =
a flock of Bonaparte's Gulls sitting on the water.
My only Ross' Gull experience was the Conn. bird in the 1980's, =
added to whatever photographs I have seen in print. The Ross' shots and =
links in Martin's webpage all show a markedly larger, rounder head, and =
a thicker, shorter neck. The Scottish photos in the water show the =
longer, lower wing projection, giving a very different silhouette than =
the Florida photo. As I recall, the Conn. Ross' Gull sat more like a =
small Bonie on the water then a Little.
It is often difficult to use a published photograph as an absolute =
guide to what the real bird looked like, due to the compounding of =
errors in exposure, resolution, and contrast levels. This is especially =
true of a color transparency-to-black & white transfer. I used to do =
those in my home darkroom by first using color-sensitive B&W paper to =
make a full-contrast range B&W negative print, then contact-printing it =
onto normal B&W paper to make a positive image, using polycontrast =
filters to adjust the final print to match the tonal values of the =
original slide. It was a pain in the neck. Even a perfectly-exposed =
slide can come out looking very contrasty and low-resolution if the =
transfer is not done properly.
I am just getting into digital photography, and thus am a newbie to =
all the various tricks of the trade. However, just a few cycles of =
digital compression and expansion can yield an image that is just as =
useless as a badly-done slide-to-print from the old days. Once an =
operator begins to "clean up" a blurry / high contrast / low resolution =
image, where does the truth end and the interpretation begin?
It's a Little Gull.
Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor(AT)swarovskioptik.com=20
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