ID-FRONTIERS for March 25-31, 2001

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Franklin's Gull Mantle Color   Mike Alibone    Sun, 25 Mar 2001   3:36am   Re: Taxonomy of Chat Tanagers - followup   Bill or Sue Smith    Mon, 26 Mar 2001   11:47am   [BIRDCHAT] Juncos (fwd)   ian paulsen    Mon, 26 Mar 2001   9:10pm   Re: Juncos (fwd)   Tony Leukering    Mon, 26 Mar 2001   10:04pm   Check out CCRT Current Projects   Tony Leukering    Mon, 26 Mar 2001   10:41pm   Re: [BIRDCHAT] Other pending sparrow splits (fwd)   ian paulsen    Tue, 27 Mar 2001   10:52am   Thayer's Gull in Japan?   Dick Newell    Tue, 27 Mar 2001   2:46pm   Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan?   Phil Pickering    Tue, 27 Mar 2001   3:23pm   Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan?   Lethaby, Nick   Tue, 27 Mar 2001   3:30pm   Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan?   Lethaby, Nick   Tue, 27 Mar 2001   3:50pm   Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan? +xtra gull   Phil Pickering    Tue, 27 Mar 2001   7:28pm   Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan?   Alvaro Jaramillo    Tue, 27 Mar 2001   9:18pm   Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan?   Phil Pickering    Wed, 28 Mar 2001   12:31am   Juncoes   Steven Mlodinow    Thu, 29 Mar 2001   8:57am   Re: Franklin's Gull Mantle Color   Mike Alibone    Thu, 29 Mar 2001   10:01am   Re: Franklin's Gull Mantle Color   norman van swelm    Thu, 29 Mar 2001   1:42pm   Barrow's Goldeneye   John Idzikowski    Fri, 30 Mar 2001   9:45am   North American vs Eurasian Surf Scoter   Angus Wilson    Sat, 31 Mar 2001   11:12pm

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Subject: Franklin's Gull Mantle Color
From: Mike Alibone <mike(AT)alibone.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: 25 Mar 2001 3:36am

Dear All,

We have an apparent adult Franklin's Gull coming to roost at an inland
reservoir in the UK. Size, structure, plumage are all good for adult
Franklin's, except for the mantle and upper wing tone, which is same
lightness as a Common (Mew) Gull Larus canus.
Does anyone know if Franklin's Gull mantle can vary and be as light as
Common Gull ?
Have hybrids between Franklin's & Mew ever been recorded ?

Mike Alibone
Northamptonshire Uk


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Subject: Re: Taxonomy of Chat Tanagers - followup
From: Bill or Sue Smith <birdsmiths(AT)hotmail.com>
Date: 26 Mar 2001 11:47am

    Having poked my nose into this proverbial camel's tent, I'll follow up
with comments received since I posted a response on 13 March to an earlier
RFI on this subject.

    The text published in the 7th ed. of the AOU Check-list (1998) differs
from its Check-list Committee Chair's apparently unofficial opinion
given to me in an E-mail in 1997.  I reported that opinion on 13 Mar.
AOU-7, however,  is based on Pregill and Olson (1981), the most recent
taxonomic opinion _published_ on this subject.

    P&O (1981) divide the Chat Tanager at the deep depression that runs
essentially westward roughly from Barahona in the DR to Port-au-Prince in
Haiti.  Chat Tanagers from south of this depression are the monotypic
"Western Chat-Tanager" (sic), _Calyptophilus tertius_, whilst those from
north of it are the polytypic "Eastern Chat-Tanager" (sic), _C.
frugivorus_, which includes subspecies _neibae_ and _abbotti_.

    Divided this way, Westerns are large, strongly rufescent dorsally, and
lack a yellow eye-ring.  Easterns are smaller, less rufescent (although
_neibae_ apparently is close), and have a (partial) yellow eye-ring.
Westerns are those most easily seen, in the Sierra de Bahoruco in the DR.
I am told that Easterns still occur at least in the Sierra de Neiba, and
(of uncertain subspecies) at the Reserva Cientifica de Ebano Verde in the
Cordillera Central northwest of Banao, both in the DR.

    The AOU C-LC is reluctant to act further in print without more research
being published.

Cheers,

Bill Smith
-----------------
The Smiths
Grays Harbor, Washington USA
birdsmiths(AT)hotmail.com


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Subject: [BIRDCHAT] Juncos (fwd)
From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US>
Date: 26 Mar 2001 9:10pm

HI ALL:
 Food (or should I say Juncos) for thought!

Ian "Birdbooker" Paulsen
Bainbridge Is., WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
"Rallidae all the way"

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:57:49 -0500
From: James D. Rising <rising(AT)ZOO.UTORONTO.CA>
To: BIRDCHAT(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDCHAT] Juncos

George Barrowclough of the Amer. Mus. Nat. Hist. has been working on
juncos for years and knows them far better than anyone else.
Unfortunately, he has published little of this, and we've sort have been
waiting for him.  I regularly see George at meetings and talk about
juncos and ask him to publish, or at least to make specific
recommendations that the AOU can study.  He hasn't done this yet, and
last summer told me that basically Miller (1941) "had it right."  I plan
this summer to dig out Miller and study it, put together a proposal, and
pass it by George, then submit it to the committee.  DOn't have any idea
about how that would be received.  Some comments (totally off the top of
my head)

Dark-eyed and Yellow-eyed are very different--should not be lumped under
any circumstances.  Differences in behavior and song in addition to other
things.

Within Dark-eyed:

1) One or 2 old records of hybridization between Gray-headed x
White-winged.  The habitat where the hybrids were collected has been
destroyed and the ranges no longer overlap (i.e. they are allopatric now,
and probably always essentially were).  Split White-wing.

2)  Few hybrids of Pink-sided and Gray-headed, on one hand, and between
Gray-headed and Oregon on the other hand.  Limited areas.  Probably split
them all.

3)  Oregon and Slate-colored--apparently there is a massive hybrid swarm
in northern British Columbia ("cismontanus").  Probably recognize them as
2 subspecies of the same thing, with cismontanus as a broad zone of
intergradation.  Lump all of those subspecies of Oregon (I'm ignoring
Mexico, but the one from the Cape region of Baja is very distinct,
etc.).

Again, this is unanalyzed and unstudied--and perhaps nothing is going to
be done.

Also waiting for some more data on the Red Crossbills to be published.

Name:     Jim Rising
Mail:     Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    M5S 3G5
          rising(AT)zoo.utoronto.ca  or  rising(AT)zoo.toronto.edu
          Phone (416) 978-3482   FAX (416) 978-8532

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Subject: Re: Juncos (fwd)
From: Tony Leukering <GreatGrayO(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 26 Mar 2001 10:04pm

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Hi all:

This is one of my favorite topics and, living in CO, I get lots of practice
with five "subspecies" groups of Dark-eyed Junco (DEJU).  One of the real
acts of infamy, as far as birders' knowledge of distribution and ID
characters, was the lumping of the "dark-eyed" juncoes into one species in
the early 70s.  In CO, the CBCs all used to report the various forms in what
I would consider reasonable ratios and most birders knew how to differentiate
the birds.  That has changed considerably and even most CO birders just
cannot or will not differentiate them.  Eastern birders with only one or two
forms of Slate-colored (SCJU), don't have much of a prayer, as they are not
forced to learn the variation inherent in SCJU plumage, because there's
nothing else that occurs.

While I'm unsure, yet, about cismontanus and its relationships to the other
SCJUs and Oregons (ORJU), I do not understand why Pink-sided (PSJU) was and
is considered a form of ORJU.  PSJU is at least as, if not more, different
from ORJU as it is from all other DEJU forms, at least plumage and
call-note-wise.  In fact, it is more similar to White-winged (WWJU) in
plumage and calls than it is to all other forms.  It shares the pale gray
head, blackish lores, more-extensively white tail, and longer, and
not-as-clipped call note with WWJU.

I had been noting for some time that PSJU had much more white in the tail
than do ORJU, SCJU, or GHJU and that this amount of white approached that of
WWJU.  So, this past winter, I asked a good friend and scary-good birder,
Chris Wood, which form, other than WWJU he thought had the largest amount of
white in the tail.  He didn't know off the top of his head, but said that
he'd look at them.  I didn't give him any inkling as to what my thoughts were
and he came back a week or so later and unequivocally said, "Pink-sided."

Chris and I also have been working on the call notes of the various forms and
believe that WWJU has the flattest, most drawn-out call note of the group,
with PSJU having a very similar call note.  ORJU and SCJU are very similar,
if not indistinguishable.  Unfortunately, I still do not have a good handle
on the Gray-headed call note and how it relates to those of the other forms;
I also have very little field (and no in-hand) experience with Red-backed.

I have occasion to band a large number of juncoes in the fall here in eastern
Colorado, so have handled 10s to 100s of all five groups, with WWJU the
rarest.  Generally, the birds I catch are distinct and separable to
subspecies group, with little apparent intergradation/hybridization, though I
must admit that I have seen a few that have defied identification - mostly
immature females (really brown, dingy things); these may very well have been
the product of some hanky-panky.  However, the percentage of all juncoes that
are possible hybirds - or, at least that show intermediate characters or a
mixing of characters - is very low.  Since eastern CO is blessed with migrant
and wintering juncoes from across the breeding map, the very low percentage
of obvious intergrades/hybrids may suggest that these actually occur in very
low percentages in the metapopulation; I don't think that these "tweeners"
are avoiding us.

Finally, if we are to understand the differences in range, abundance, and
migration timing of the various groups - which all come from different
breeding areas - birders have got to start separating the various groups in
their field notes, their CBC tallies, etc.  They particularly have got to
STOP reporting PSJUs as ORJUs on CBCs.

Anyway, that's all the pontificating I'll do tonight.  Comments, anyone?

Sincerely,

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

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Subject: Check out CCRT Current Projects
From: Tony Leukering <GreatGrayO(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 26 Mar 2001 10:41pm

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Hi all:

Thought that you'd get a kick out of this web site (sorry, ID-Frontiers, for
being slightly off-topic).  If you have an interest in Gambell,  migration,
Broad-winged, Swainson's, or Red-tailed hawks, White-faced Ibis, Common
Loons, Snowy Owls, or other cool places or birds, you'll like this web site.

Enjoy,

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO<A HREF="http://www.ccrt.org/HTML/currentproj.html">

CCRT Current Projects</A>

http://www.ccrt.org/HTML/currentproj.html

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Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Other pending sparrow splits (fwd)
From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US>
Date: 27 Mar 2001 10:52am

HI ALL:
 Incase someone is interested.

Ian "Birdbooker" Paulsen
Bainbridge Is., WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
"Rallidae all the way"

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:03:09 -0500
From: James D. Rising <rising(AT)ZOO.UTORONTO.CA>
To: BIRDCHAT(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDCHAT] Other pending sparrow splits

> Can you please tell us about the current status of the pending splits
> mentioned in your book:
>
> Sage Sparrow / Bell's Sparrow

We're waiting for Ned Johnson to publish some remaining data and analyses.

> Fox Sparrow complex

Bob Zink has a student working on these to get a clearer idea of what to do.

> Large-billed Savannah

Bob and I are working on a biochemical analyses of the relationships
among the Savannah Sparrows.  Still haven't seen any results.

>
>
> Good birding,
> Steve <mailto:steve(AT)sosensky.com>
>
> Steve Sosensky, photographer                        www.sosensky.com
> 10834 Blix Street #213                                  818-508-4946
> Toluca Lake, CA 91602                      34*09'02" N, 118*22'47" W
> Audubon in So. California                www.SoCalAudubon.org/socal/
> San Fernando Valley AS       www.SanFernandoValleyAudubon.org/sfvas/
> AIM ID: SteveS310                   Yahoo Messenger ID: SteveSosensky
>
> For BirdChat guidelines, go to
> http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html
> For BirdChat archives or to change your subscription options, go to
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/lsv/www/birdchat.html
> To contact a listowner, send a message to
> mailto:birdchat-request(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
>

Name:     Jim Rising
Mail:     Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    M5S 3G5
          rising(AT)zoo.utoronto.ca  or  rising(AT)zoo.toronto.edu
          Phone (416) 978-3482   FAX (416) 978-8532

For BirdChat guidelines, go to
http://www.ksu.edu/audubon/chatguidelines.html
For BirdChat archives or to change your subscription options, go to
http://listserv.arizona.edu/lsv/www/birdchat.html
To contact a listowner, send a message to
mailto:birdchat-request(AT)listserv.arizona.edu


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Subject: Thayer's Gull in Japan?
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)APPLEONLINE.NET>
Date: 27 Mar 2001 2:46pm

Compelling pictures and a description of what looks like an adult Thayer's
Gull are shown under "Discussion Birds" on http://magikcircle.com/birds
Does this bird ring true with those familiar with the species?
What is the status of Thayer's in Japan?
Dick Newell


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Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan?
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 27 Mar 2001 3:23pm

As far as can be judged from the photos, it looks good to me -
steep forehead angle, rounded, almost peaked crown, thin rear,
proportionately large eye, short legs, short, thin bill, typical nape
streaking, etc. The under-primary pattern is also quite typical for
Thayer's, inc. large mirrors on P10 and 9 defined on their inner ends
by pale gray. The long, thin wedge of black on the upper primaries
also seems typical for a view from that angle. In the first photo P5
seems to have a wide, white tip with a thin, paler-than-black band,
which is also good for Thayer's.

I'm not familiar with the status of Thayer's in Japan, but given the
far northern latitude of their breeding range, and the direction the
bulk of the population migrates, it wouldn't surprise me if they occur
annually.

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com

>Compelling pictures and a description of what looks like an adult Thayer's
>Gull are shown under "Discussion Birds" on http://magikcircle.com/birds
>Does this bird ring true with those familiar with the species?
>What is the status of Thayer's in Japan?
>Dick Newell


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Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan?
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 27 Mar 2001 3:30pm

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As far as I know Thayer's are annual in small numbers at Chosi. I think
Geoff Carey and John King saw 4 different birds during a stay of a week or
so there. I saw an adult on my second visit.  I recall that the Ujihara book
said there were 1-2 each year too (I had someone translate it for me so I
can't check). Doubtless a number must be elsewhere as well.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Newell [mailto:dick.newell(AT)APPLEONLINE.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 1:45 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thayer's Gull in Japan?

Compelling pictures and a description of what looks like an adult Thayer's
Gull are shown under "Discussion Birds" on http://magikcircle.com/birds
Does this bird ring true with those familiar with the species?
What is the status of Thayer's in Japan?
Dick Newell

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Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan?
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 27 Mar 2001 3:50pm

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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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While the bird might be a Thayer's Gull, the photos are pretty poor and the
description doesn't include any discussion of key structural features like
the primary projection. Adult Thayer's Gulls usually show very large white
mirrors on the closed primaries, which this bird doesn't show. Although the
image is too fuzzy to be sure, the primary projection beyond the tail
doesn't look very long. Although the description of the mantle is good for
Thayer's, it's unlikely that either vegae or smithsonianus were around for
comparison and the mantle of this bird must be quite pale gray based on how
dark the Slaty-backed Gull looks. This kind of primary pattern may be shown
by Glaucous x Herring hybrids, which I've seen in Japan.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Newell [mailto:dick.newell(AT)APPLEONLINE.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 1:45 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thayer's Gull in Japan?

Compelling pictures and a description of what looks like an adult Thayer's
Gull are shown under "Discussion Birds" on http://magikcircle.com/birds
Does this bird ring true with those familiar with the species?
What is the status of Thayer's in Japan?
Dick Newell

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Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan? +xtra gull
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 27 Mar 2001 7:28pm

Herring x Glaucous-winged can also approximate the wingtip
pattern of Thayer's, and presumably occur in Japan. However,
the underwing pattern visible in the flight shot is exactly perfect for
Thayer's, and in my opinion is unlikely to be matched so precisely
by a GW or Glaucous x Herring hybrid. For example, my impression
is that Herring hybrids with paler under-primaries due to Glaucous or
GW influence typically don't show quite such dark, contrasting tip bands.
Also, the large size/extent of the white mirrors/tongues visible on the
under-primaries seems perfect for Thayer's, and extreme for the
hybrid-things I've gotten a good look at. When you combine this with
the great size and shape comparison with the Slaty-backed in the
first photo, and the "venetian blind" comment in the description
of the upper primaries, my personal feeling is that there's enough
here to be diagnostic for Thayer's.

There are other nice gull photos on this website worth checking
out, including a bird identified as a 3rd-winter Glaucous at -

http://magikcircle.com/birds/image.asp?title_id=3&group_id=17

I point out this bird because there's a chance it might illustrate a
useful mark for differentiating pure Glaucous from hybrids or
albinistic/leucistic/faded-primary Herrings. My impression is
that all Glaucous Gulls of all ages retain whitish eye arcs, even
in basic plumage. My impression is also that on basic-plumage
Herring (and Glaucous-winged) the duskiness on the face
seems to extend onto the eye arcs, and the arcs don't contrast
much, while on a Glaucous the facial duskiness (always?) ends
at the eye arcs, and the eye arcs contrast very strongly. I don't
get to see a huge sample of Glaucous Gulls, so I'm not sure
about this, but it's definitely something to look at in the future.

The above gull has a defined upper eye arc, but the arc seems kind
of dusky, and doesn't seem to have the typical Glaucous-like contrast
with the rest of the face. Perhaps it's not a coincidence that (other
than the primaries) the rest of the bird looks Herring-ish. It seems
to have a Herring-like shape, the black on the bill tip doesn't look
faded enough for a 3rd-winter Glaucous, and the tail seems kind
of dark (hard to tell). I wouldn't say for sure, but I think the above
gull might be a Herring x Glaucous (or Herring with white primaries?)

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com

>Compelling pictures and a description of what looks like an adult Thayer's
>Gull are shown under "Discussion Birds" on http://magikcircle.com/birds
>Does this bird ring true with those familiar with the species?
>What is the status of Thayer's in Japan?
>Dick Newell


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Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <alvaro(AT)SIRIUS.COM>
Date: 27 Mar 2001 9:18pm

At 09:44 PM 3/27/01 +0000, Dick Newell wrote:
>Compelling pictures and a description of what looks like an adult Thayer's
>Gull are shown under "Discussion Birds" on http://magikcircle.com/birds
>Does this bird ring true with those familiar with the species?
>What is the status of Thayer's in Japan?
>Dick Newell

Birders:

   Probably its irresponsible to give off the cuff comments without too
much details, but here I go anyway. If I was to see this bird here where
Thayer's Gulls are common I would not call it a Thayer's Gull. My thought
would be in the Herring x Glaucous-winged gull camp. What bothers me is the
structure, this looks like a large-billed, thick-necked, barrel-chested,
short-winged gull. Not at all like Thayer's. Keep in mind that you can be
fooled by photos, and it happens to me often. The centrally placed eye is
akin to that of Glaucous-winged Gull. It also lookes relatively too
long-legged to me. Finally it looks too large in comparison to the
Slaty-backed Gull. Remember that Thayer's is smaller than American Herring
Gull on average, and that it has a low-slung, long-winged and petite
structure. If I ever get a slide scanner I can post a lot of photos of
Thayer's, its in the plans.

I will stop there. Again, remember that this is a quick opinion based on a
quick look at the photos.

cheers,

Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
Biologist
San Francisco Bay Bird Observatory
P.O. Box 247
Alviso, CA 95002
(408)-946-6548

http://www.sfbbo.org/
Home of the California Fall Challenge!!

alvaro(AT)sirius.com

Birds of Chile and
New World Blackbirds at : http://www.sirius.com/~alvaro


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Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull in Japan?
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 28 Mar 2001 12:31am

Alvaro makes a good point about the structure appearing
somewhat un-Thayer's-like, but I think this is at least partially
due to the foreshortened view. To me the bird doesn't seem
that barrel-chested, and the rear end seems quite thin. The
primary extension beyond the tail is tough to judge, but to me
it appears at least a little longer than on the Slaty-backed.
I think the head shape, which is visible in profile in the first
photo, seems extreme even for a female Herring or Glaucous-
winged. Also, while Slaty-backed are fairly large-billed, I have a
hard time picturing their bills looking this much thicker and longer
than even smaller-billed Herring x GW. I'm sure it's possible,
but such a small-billed hybrid would probably be in a very small
minority.

I've speculated about this before, but I think it's also possible that
our classic picture of Thayer's, both in plumage *and* structure,
might actually represent birds showing the effects of highly
progressed introgression with glaucoides. I think it's possible
that "purer" Thayer's may not typically be quite so long-winged,
short-legged, thin-bodied, and small-billed as the totally dinky
things that are more obviously recognized as "Thayer's".

Cheers,

Phil

P.S. On the 3rd-year Glaucous I commented on - giving it some
thought (which I should have done more of in the first place) a
leucistic Herring probably wouldn't have the Glaucous-like finely
marked, pale tertials and greater coverts shown by this bird (I
think they would likely be either more solid and Herring-like, or
pure white like the primaries). I would still wonder about the
possibility of a Glaucous x Herring for this bird, though.

>   Probably its irresponsible to give off the cuff comments without too
>much details, but here I go anyway. If I was to see this bird here where
>Thayer's Gulls are common I would not call it a Thayer's Gull. My thought
>would be in the Herring x Glaucous-winged gull camp. What bothers me is the
>structure, this looks like a large-billed, thick-necked, barrel-chested,
>short-winged gull. Not at all like Thayer's. Keep in mind that you can be
>fooled by photos, and it happens to me often. The centrally placed eye is
>akin to that of Glaucous-winged Gull. It also lookes relatively too
>long-legged to me. Finally it looks too large in comparison to the
>Slaty-backed Gull. Remember that Thayer's is smaller than American Herring
>Gull on average, and that it has a low-slung, long-winged and petite
>structure. If I ever get a slide scanner I can post a lot of photos of
>Thayer's, its in the plans.


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Subject: Juncoes
From: Steven Mlodinow <SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 29 Mar 2001 8:57am

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Greetings All

I generally agree with Tony, except that intermediates between SC and OR
Juncos are not rare in Washington. In w. Washington, I'd say the ratio of OR
to SC is about 200 to 1. The ratio of SC to apparent SC X OR is about 4:1.
Since we have lots of juncos, I see apparent integrades fairly frequently.
Most look like cismontanus, though some don't.

Cheers
Steve Mlodinow

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Subject: Re: Franklin's Gull Mantle Color
From: Mike Alibone <mike(AT)alibone.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: 29 Mar 2001 10:01am

 Dear All,

I was surprised to have received no comments from any of the 867
subscribers on this e-group, regarding my posting of 25th March. Here
it is again.

(Surely SOMEONE must know the answer ??!!!)

"We have an apparent adult Franklin's Gull coming to roost at an
inland
reservoir in the UK. Size, structure, plumage are all good for adult
Franklin's, except for the mantle and upper wing tone, which is same
lightness as a Common (Mew) Gull Larus canus.
Does anyone know if Franklin's Gull mantle can vary and be as light as
Common Gull ?
Have hybrids between Franklin's & Mew ever been recorded ?"

Mike Alibone
Northamptonshire UK


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Subject: Re: Franklin's Gull Mantle Color
From: norman van swelm <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 29 Mar 2001 1:42pm

Mike Alibone wrote:>I was surprised to have received no comments from any of
the 867
>subscribers on this e-group, regarding my posting of 25th March. Here
>it is again.
>
>(Surely SOMEONE must know the answer ??!!!)
>
>"We have an apparent adult Franklin's Gull coming to roost at an
>inland
>reservoir in the UK. Size, structure, plumage are all good for adult
>Franklin's, except for the mantle and upper wing tone, which is same
>lightness as a Common (Mew) Gull Larus canus.
>Does anyone know if Franklin's Gull mantle can vary and be as light as
>Common Gull ?
>Have hybrids between Franklin's & Mew ever been recorded ?"
Sometime ago a quiz photo was published in Birding of an apparent Laughing
Gull with a bright reddish bill. I think it was a hybrid Franklin's x
Laughing and this bird's mantle looked a fraction paler than both it's
parents.
Norman


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Subject: Barrow's Goldeneye
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 30 Mar 2001 9:45am

A male Barrow's Goldeneye has been present in the Milwaukee Harbor for 5
days; this species is quite rare in the state and few observers here are
familar with any geographical or individual variation. There has been some
suggestion that this bird may be a hybrid with Common as the facial crescent
seems large and the black "boa" onto the breast seems reduced. Iridescence
on the head shows both green and purple in good sun. Three fair digitals are
posted in a photopoint album at

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1596768&a=12259089

Thanks for your attention and comments.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee


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Subject: North American vs Eurasian Surf Scoter
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)ENDEAVOR.MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 31 Mar 2001 11:12pm

**** Separation of Surf Scoter subspecies ****

As we enter the beginning of April, large numbers of scoter have begun to
gather
along the coasts of New England and in the Great Lakes in preparation for the
brief Arctic breeding season. This seems a good time to study these fascinating
sea ducks, especially as they engage in their fevered courtship activities.

Several field guides already discuss the separation of North American/Siberian
Black Scoter (Melanitta nigra americana) from its European counterpart the
Common Scoter (M. n. nigra). I am aware that several male Black Scoters have
been reported by observers in western Europe mixed in with flocks of Common
Scoter and Velvet Scoter (M. fusca). Adult male Black Scoters show a more
prominent orange knob on the upper mandible and are fairly distinctive. Females
or first-winter males are more problematic and may be inseparable in the field.
Correct?

The separation of Velvet (M. f. fusca) and White-winged Scoters (M. f.
deglandi/stejnegeri) has also been discussed extensively in literature
including
an excellent and comprehensive article in ŒBirding Worldı. Observers on both
sides of the North Atlantic are strongly encouraged to examine adult males
carefully, focusing on the shape of the white mark under the eye and the color
of the orange-red skin on the bill. I am not aware of Velvet Scoter records
from
the Canadian maritimes or New England but would assume this is very possible.
Needless to say this is also a candidate for splitting.

So what about the separation of the North American Surf Scoter (M.
perspicillata) from its European counterpart (M. p. ayprylfullsii)? Can anyone
comment? Are there similar subtle differences that are visible under field
conditions? I have heard that males of the North American form tend to be
slightly larger than the European form, with a slightly louder and more nasal
call. Does this ring any bells? Are there any credible records of
_ayprylfullsii_ from the US or Canada? Do the AOU have plans to split the pair?
I would guess the Dutch may have already done so?

As always, I look forward to expert input from other ID-Frontiers subscribers.

Cheers,

Agus Wislon
New York City, USA
wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu