ID-FRONTIERS for June 17-23, 2001

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: [CALBIRD] eye-browed Robin pix   Guy McCaskie    Sun, 17 Jun 2001   5:26pm   Re: Median Coverts in Gulls   David James    Sun, 17 Jun 2001   7:58pm   Identification of Oriental Cuckoo (Cuculus saturatus) and its son g variation   Martin Helin    Sun, 17 Jun 2001   11:37pm   Re: Median Coverts in Gulls   Jean Iron    Mon, 18 Jun 2001   7:33am   Re: Oriental Cuckoo (Cuculus saturatus) and its song variation   Graham Etherington    Mon, 18 Jun 2001   11:23am   Re: eye-browed Robin pix   D. Heindel   Mon, 18 Jun 2001   12:10pm   Re: Oriental Cuckoo near Lieksa, Finland   Bill or Sue Smith    Mon, 18 Jun 2001   4:42pm   Wing photos - Heermann's Gulls and others   Bill or Sue Smith    Tue, 19 Jun 2001   11:05am   "Eye-browed" thrush   Matt Heindel    Tue, 19 Jun 2001   6:09pm   Re: "Eye-browed" thrush   Paul J Leader    Wed, 20 Jun 2001   1:14am   Re: "Eye-browed" thrush   Laurent Raty    Wed, 20 Jun 2001   3:15am   Re: "Eye-browed" thrush   Paul J Leader    Wed, 20 Jun 2001   8:28am   Re: "Eye-browed" thrush   Lethaby, Nick   Wed, 20 Jun 2001   8:43am   Re: "Eye-browed" thrush   ian paulsen    Wed, 20 Jun 2001   9:50am   Median coverts in gulls from Steve Howell   Peter Pyle    Wed, 20 Jun 2001   6:15pm

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'. This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

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Subject: Re: [CALBIRD] eye-browed Robin pix
From: Guy McCaskie <guymcc(AT)PACBELL.NET>
Date: 17 Jun 2001 5:26pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Mitch,

These are the same two pictures reviewed by knowledgeable persons in =
Alaska and Southeast Asia a number of years ago.  It was identified as =
an American Robin by all who commented.  I believe you published the =
"record" in your local Audubon newsletter as an Eye-browed Thrush.  Did =
you ever publish a retraction?

Guy McCaskie
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: D. Heindel=20
  To: calbird=20
  Cc: ID Frontiers=20
  Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 9:50 PM
  Subject: [CALBIRD] eye-browed Robin pix

  Hi all,

  You may find interesting the pictures on my=20
  site of an unusual Turdus sp.  I appreciate
  any insights and comments from all of you
  on these birds....have a look at:
  http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/pelagics/MYSTERIES2.html

  There is no music so it shouldn't crash your
  browser, no matter how antiquated :):):)
  I apologize for problems some viewers have
  had.  I guess I'll de-embed the music, so you
  have to click on it to get it, and eliminate
  the problems....  =20

  There is a Myiarchus and an Oystercatcher on=20
  the page as well....

  all of us are smarter than any of us
  Mitch
  the D. stands for dysfunctional
  Mitch Heindel
  birdfish(AT)earthlink.net
  http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/pelagics

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Subject: Re: Median Coverts in Gulls
From: David James <dave-james(AT)BEYOND.NET.AU>
Date: 17 Jun 2001 7:58pm

Is this a mute argument. My recollection (haven't checked the refs though,
so correct me if I'm wrong) is that the term "median coverts" is a term of
convenience for  the posterior row(s) of the lesser coverts tract (sensu
lato), because these rows often differ from anterior row(s) (lesser coverts
sensu stricto) by slightly larger size and different pattern, and therefore
it is useful to discriminate when describing plumages.  "Median coverts" is
just easier than saying "posterior-most row of lesser coverts" or
"posterior-most two rows of lesser coverts". But from a pterilographic
point of view, medians and lessers are one in the same tract. Thus, the
number of rows of medians depends on your ability to discrimate differences
between anterior and posterior rows of LCs (sensu lato). Often, rows of LCs
(sensu lato) become progressivley a little bigger rearwards; often the 2nd
last row is intermediate in size and pattern betwen the last and 3rd last
rows, so is it a "median" covert or  a "lesser" covert? Perhaps in some
cases this is a matter of opinion rather than fact.

Note also that there are no median primary coverts, ie the lesser primary
coverts are all fairly uniform in size and shape and there are less rows
of  primary LCs than there are secondary LCs (sensu lato). Even the number
of rows of greater coverts can vary. The under greater coverts differ from
the under lesser coverts (sensu lato) in that the former are oriented the
same way up as the remiges (ie right side up) and the latter are oriented
upside down (on a spread wing dorsal surface up). In the Threskiornithidae,
at least, there are 2 rows of greater secondary coverts and one of greater
primary coverts "the right way up". Presumably this means there are also 2
rows of upper greater secondary coverts?

Are you sure that some of the rows of coverts were overlapping with inner
webs over outer webs? Feathers aren't designed to be interchangeable like
that, and I don't see that this could be possible, but I'd be interested to
no more details. I've never encountered the "hand" of overlap as a way of
defining different tracts.

cheers

At 15:34 15/06/01 -0400, Jean Iron wrote:
>Do gulls have 1 or 2 rows of median secondary coverts on the upper wing?
>
>The reason for asking is that Jean Iron and I did a molt study of the
>Heermann's Gull that spent about 10 months in Toronto, Ontario from
>November 1999 to September 2000. We'll be submitting a paper to Ontario
>Birds, which describes the Alternate I and Prebasic II molts of Toronto's
>Heermann's Gull.
>
>The Heermann's Gull allowed us to study its plumages and molts at extremely
>close range. Our observations suggest that it had 2 rows of median coverts,
>overlapping in the opposite direction (inner webs exposed) to the greater
>coverts and to most of the lesser coverts. We asked two museum people. One
>examined a Ring-billed Gull wing which appeared to have 2 rows; the other
>examined a Great Black-backed Gull wing which also appeared to have 2 rows
>of median coverts. In specimens feathers often become disorganized, hence
>the qualifiers "appeared" to have 2 rows. There seem to be 2 rows of median
>coverts in a few good flight photos in Grant's (1986) Gulls.
>
>In the excellent article on upperwing topography on page 230 in the June
>2001 issue of Birding, it says that "By convention and to be unambiguous,
>the greater and median coverts are best considered to each consist of a
>single row of feathers." What is the "convention" being referred to in the
>Birding article?
>
>Are there 1 or 2 rows of median coverts in gulls?
>
>Happy gull watching,
>
>Ron Pittaway
>Minden, Ontario
>E-mail: jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca
>
>Jean Iron
>President, Ontario Field Ornithologists
>9 Lichen Place
>Toronto, Ontario M3A 1X3
>Canada
>Phone: 416-445-9297
>e-mail: jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca
>Web Page: http://www.interlog.com/~ofo

David James
PO BOX 5225
Townsville Mail Centre,
Qld 4810, Australia
___________________________


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Subject: Identification of Oriental Cuckoo (Cuculus
         saturatus) and its son g variation
From: Martin Helin <Martin.Helin(AT)RISSASOLUTIONS.COM>
Date: 17 Jun 2001 11:37pm

Visa Rauste (Chairman of the Finnish Rarities Committee writes):

"The first Oriental Cuckoos in Finland were in 1998 at Lieksa and at
Karstula. Apparently the same birds returned in 1999 when an additional
individual was observed at Joutsa. These records were then handled and
accepted by the Rarities Committee without discordant notes.

In the spring 2000 a bird, presumably still the same individual, again
returned to Lieksa. Then it was noted that the bird's song did not quite fit
the known variation of Oriental Cuckoo. Therefore the observation was left
under consideration last winter.

This summer the bird at Lieksa was caught. Antero Lindholm [the ringen of
the bird and also a member of the Finnish Rarities Committee] has compiled a
short text on the [open] identification of the Lieksa bird and of the
species in general."

        http://www.birdlife.fi/rk/identification/oriental-cuckoo.html

Comments on the identification of this bird and the species in general are
welcomed by the Finnish Rarities Committee (Visa Rauste's contact
information can be found at the web site). Especially interesting are notes
on the variation of the species' song (e.g. two syllable "POO-POO" vs. three
syllable "poo-POO-POO") and ANY recordings of the species from the western
part of the range. As far as I know, the committee has no recordings from
the more westernly breeders to compare with whereas recordings from east
Asia are readily available.

        Martin Helin, Finland

Martin Helin
martin.helin(AT)rissasolutions.com


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Subject: Re: Median Coverts in Gulls
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 18 Jun 2001 7:33am

I thank David James for his comments. Below are my responses following each
of his three paragraphs.

At 12:58 PM 6/18/2001 +1000, you wrote:
>Is this a mute argument. My recollection (haven't checked the refs though,
>so correct me if I'm wrong) is that the term "median coverts" is a term of
>convenience for  the posterior row(s) of the lesser coverts tract (sensu
>lato), because these rows often differ from anterior row(s) (lesser coverts
>sensu stricto) by slightly larger size and different pattern, and therefore
>it is useful to discriminate when describing plumages.  "Median coverts" is
>just easier than saying "posterior-most row of lesser coverts" or
>"posterior-most two rows of lesser coverts". But from a pterilographic
>point of view, medians and lessers are one in the same tract. Thus, the
>number of rows of medians depends on your ability to discrimate differences
>between anterior and posterior rows of LCs (sensu lato). Often, rows of LCs
>(sensu lato) become progressivley a little bigger rearwards; often the 2nd
>last row is intermediate in size and pattern betwen the last and 3rd last
>rows, so is it a "median" covert or  a "lesser" covert? Perhaps in some
>cases this is a matter of opinion rather than fact.

I believe in the concept of median coverts. The median coverts are much
bigger/longer/stronger, etc. and the medians overlap in a different
direction (inner webs exposed on most birds), making them distinct in most
birds. Passerines appear to have 1 distinct row of medians, but other
groups (e.g. ducks) have 2 distinct rows of median coverts.

    Note also that there are no median primary coverts, ie the lesser primary
>coverts are all fairly uniform in size and shape and there are less rows
>of  primary LCs than there are secondary LCs (sensu lato). Even the number
>of rows of greater coverts can vary. The under greater coverts differ from
>the under lesser coverts (sensu lato) in that the former are oriented the
>same way up as the remiges (ie right side up) and the latter are oriented
>upside down (on a spread wing dorsal surface up). In the Threskiornithidae,
>at least, there are 2 rows of greater secondary coverts and one of greater
>primary coverts "the right way up". Presumably this means there are also 2
>rows of upper greater secondary coverts?

One example contrary to the above is Pettingill's Ornithology in Laboratory
and Field (4th edition 1970), it says in the study of a pigeon that it has
one row of median primary coverts and that lesser primary coverts are
lacking in the pigeon.

>Are you sure that some of the rows of coverts were overlapping with inner
>webs over outer webs? Feathers aren't designed to be interchangeable like
>that, and I don't see that this could be possible, but I'd be interested to
>no more details. I've never encountered the "hand" of overlap as a way of
>defining different tracts.

Yes, I'm sure that median secondary coverts overlap (inner webs exposed) in
the opposite direction to the greater coverts in most birds. In the greater
coverts the outer feather webs are exposed in the same way as the
secondaries and primaries. The difference between greaters and medians can
be seen in good photos and the best bird artists are aware of these
arrangements. Many lesser coverts tend to overlap in the opposite direction
(outer webs exposed) to the medians, but the less structured rows of
smaller lessers show a mixture of directions, often appearing to overlap in
a bricklike fashion, especially closer to the leading edge of the wing.

This discussion has been helpful to our study on molt. However, I'd
appreciate specific information on gulls. Are there 1 or 2 rows of median
coverts in gulls. There is definitely 1 row of obvious long medians on
gulls (much easier to see in immature stages). The second row could be
either medians or lessers; this second row is smaller than the first row of
medians and distinctly larger than the other lessers. Any information will
help with our molt study of a Heermann's Gull.

Warm regards,

Ron Pittaway
Minden, Ontario
E-mail: jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca

>At 15:34 15/06/01 -0400, Jean Iron wrote:
>>Do gulls have 1 or 2 rows of median secondary coverts on the upper wing?
>>
>>The reason for asking is that Jean Iron and I did a molt study of the
>>Heermann's Gull that spent about 10 months in Toronto, Ontario from
>>November 1999 to September 2000. We'll be submitting a paper to Ontario
>>Birds, which describes the Alternate I and Prebasic II molts of Toronto's
>>Heermann's Gull.
>>
>>The Heermann's Gull allowed us to study its plumages and molts at extremely
>>close range. Our observations suggest that it had 2 rows of median coverts,
>>overlapping in the opposite direction (inner webs exposed) to the greater
>>coverts and to most of the lesser coverts. We asked two museum people. One
>>examined a Ring-billed Gull wing which appeared to have 2 rows; the other
>>examined a Great Black-backed Gull wing which also appeared to have 2 rows
>>of median coverts. In specimens feathers often become disorganized, hence
>>the qualifiers "appeared" to have 2 rows. There seem to be 2 rows of median
>>coverts in a few good flight photos in Grant's (1986) Gulls.
>>
>>In the excellent article on upperwing topography on page 230 in the June
>>2001 issue of Birding, it says that "By convention and to be unambiguous,
>>the greater and median coverts are best considered to each consist of a
>>single row of feathers." What is the "convention" being referred to in the
>>Birding article?
>>
>>Are there 1 or 2 rows of median coverts in gulls?
>>
>>Happy gull watching,
>>
>>Ron Pittaway
>>Minden, Ontario
>>E-mail: jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca
>>
>>Jean Iron
>>President, Ontario Field Ornithologists
>>9 Lichen Place
>>Toronto, Ontario M3A 1X3
>>Canada
>>Phone: 416-445-9297
>>e-mail: jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca
>>Web Page: http://www.interlog.com/~ofo
>
>David James
>PO BOX 5225
>Townsville Mail Centre,
>Qld 4810, Australia
>___________________________

Jean Iron
9 Lichen Place
Toronto ON  M3A 1X3
416-445-9297
e-mail: jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca


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Subject: Re: Oriental Cuckoo (Cuculus saturatus) and its
         song variation
From: Graham Etherington <etherington(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 18 Jun 2001 11:23am

Dear Martin, Visa, and others,
With respect to the Oriental Cuckoo calls provided at
http://www.birdlife.fi/rk/identification/oriental-cuckoo.html
and Martin’s posting on ID-frontiers. I observed birds this spring in China
with a very similar call to the recording of the Lieksa 2001 bird.
Interestingly enough, this call was heard much more frequently at dawn,
seemingly replaced during the day with the more usual Hoopoe-like call.
Below is a transcript of my notes on this call:

18 May 01 - Old Peak 04:45 a.m. (dawn.)
Oriental Cuckoo call: Usually 3 notes, first note higher in pitch, but lower
in volume than the proceeding 2 notes.
“hoo-hu-hu”, with the last two notes being slightly more hurried than the
opening note.

Interestingly, I changed my notes whilst listening to the birds. I initially
described the first note as lower in pitch than the 2nd note (possibly due
to the louder 2nd note), but then changed my mind and called it higher
pitched. This gives an idea as to how hard it was for me to decide on the
pitch.

Of course, transcribing calls is a hazardous business. What sounds “higher
pitch but lower volume” to one person, might not be interpreted as such by
another, but to my ears the Lieksa 2001 recording sounds very akin to the
birds I heard in China.
As to the recording of the same bird in 2000, this does sound rather more
European Cuckoo like than the 2001 recording, but over all the years that
I’ve listened to Cuckoos in Europe, I can not recall hearing one with a weak
introductory note before the 2-syllable “cuh-coo”.

One last point is that the two different recordings shows the variation
between what is, presumably, the same bird, but to my ears every different
set of notes has it’s own variation to it as well. I see no reason why the
call of the Lieksa bird is not within the variation of Oriental Cuckoo.

All the best,
Graham

Graham Etherington
197 Unthank Road,
Norwich NR2 2PQ,
England
Tel: (+44)07787 118809 (mobile) or 01603 506595 (home)
http://communities.msn.com/GrahamEtherington/home.htm

>From: Martin Helin Reply-To: Martin Helin To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Identification of Oriental Cuckoo (Cuculus saturatus)
>and its son g variation Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:33:17 +0300
>
>Visa Rauste (Chairman of the Finnish Rarities Committee writes):
>
>"The first Oriental Cuckoos in Finland were in 1998 at Lieksa and at
>Karstula. Apparently the same birds returned in 1999 when an additional
>individual was observed at Joutsa. These records were then handled and
>accepted by the Rarities Committee without discordant notes.
>
>In the spring 2000 a bird, presumably still the same individual, again
>returned to Lieksa. Then it was noted that the bird's song did not quite
>fit the known variation of Oriental Cuckoo. Therefore the observation was
>left under consideration last winter.
>
>This summer the bird at Lieksa was caught. Antero Lindholm [the ringen of
>the bird and also a member of the Finnish Rarities Committee] has compiled
>a short text on the [open] identification of the Lieksa bird and of the
>species in general."
>
>http://www.birdlife.fi/rk/identification/oriental-cuckoo.html
>
>Comments on the identification of this bird and the species in general are
>welcomed by the Finnish Rarities Committee (Visa Rauste's contact
>information can be found at the web site). Especially interesting are notes
>on the variation of the species' song (e.g. two syllable "POO-POO" vs.
>three syllable "poo-POO-POO") and ANY recordings of the species from the
>western part of the range. As far as I know, the committee has no
>recordings from the more westernly breeders to compare with whereas
>recordings from east Asia are readily available.
>
>Martin Helin, Finland
>
>Martin Helin martin.helin(AT)rissasolutions.com

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


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Subject: Re: eye-browed Robin pix
From: "D. Heindel" <birdfish(AT)earthlink.net>
Date: 18 Jun 2001 12:10pm

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Hi Guy and all,

Yes these are the two pictures I sent you some years ago.

Those duplicate slides were of such poor quality,

especially of high contrast, many features visible in

these images (color) were not visible in those dupes.

One respondent from AK said it should have a gray crown

and nape contrasting with a brown back....  This clearly

shows in the rear view on the web, yet was not visible in

the poor quality colorless dupes...   I only say that to say
what

is visible now, was not visible before.  These are much

better images.  Not to say it is not a Robin.

As you well know, I did NOT "submit" an "Eye-browed

Thrush".  I emphatically and anally insisted it was a

RFI - Request for Identification, not a record submission.

And that the report was titled "Turdus sp.".

Yes, I suggested it might be, or, could be,
and enthusiastically;

and that it should be checked out by "those in the know" to be

absolutely positively certain it was not obscurus.  I think
after

seeing Jonsson's imm. male depiction in his Birds of Europe

etc., I'd be foolish not to.   I certainly would not have
guessed

there are Robins that can have so many marks resembling

so closely those of an imm. male obscurus.  My books don't

show many features present on this bird as Robin marks.

I was asked at one point if I would let these be published

as a quiz bird in Birding.  They must be of some value....

I felt the better images than those offered in the past deserved

another look, and that the general public could benefit from

seeing things not always offered in the field guides.  And

perhaps some more input about Robin identification.

Regarding my "Birds of the Peninsula" column in Palos Verdes/

South Bay Audubon's "Hummin'" newsletter, the last mention

I made of it was in the Feb/Mar 1995 issue, VolXVII, #1, pg.4.

A paragraph is devoted to it, I'll shorten it a bit, but it reads in
part:

"I must clarify a point raised in the last issue regarding

[the eye-browed thrush].  Neither then nor now has that

thrush been positively absolutely identified as an Eye-browed

Thrush".  I then go on to define catergories of observation

saying it "could have been", ...."possibly"  "closely resembled"

And finish with ..." However it is NOT in the absolute,

positive, or irrefutable category....."

I felt this was reasonably clear.  I also felt the title and

impetus of my report "Turdus sp" -Request for Identification

was clear. I didn't then know what the bird was, nor am I

convinced beyond all doubt that I do today.  I did call it an

Eye-browed Robin in the Subject line of the invitation for

the public to review the bird, and in the text on the site.

The important thing is what we can learn from it.  I am

now afraid to identify Robins.  :):):)   And that

as many birders as possible have as many tools as possible

when they go out there to do battle with the identification
gods.

Of course I hope when people stumble into my little piece of

wasted bandwidth, they can go away with something of

benefit they can use in the field.

best all,

Mitch

birdfish(AT)earthlink.net

http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/pelagics/MYSTERIES2.html

---- Original Message -----

From: Guy McCaskie

To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU

Sent: 6/17/2001 5:27:17 PM

Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] [CALBIRD]
eye-browed Robin pix

Mitch,

These are the same two pictures reviewed by
knowledgeable persons in Alaska and Southeast Asia a number of years ago.
It was identified as an American Robin by all who commented.  I believe you
published the "record" in your local Audubon newsletter as an Eye-browed
Thrush.  Did you ever publish a retraction?

Guy McCaskie

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


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Subject: Re: Oriental Cuckoo near Lieksa, Finland
From: Bill or Sue Smith <birdsmiths(AT)hotmail.com>
Date: 18 Jun 2001 4:42pm

    As one who 'experienced' the Lieksa cuckoo in 2000 (30 May), I'd like
to add a few comments.

    First, my recollection of the vocalizations is that they mostly were
like those on Antero Lindholm's website recorded in 2001, as also shown on
the sonogram, than like the recording from 2000.  The bird varied its
vocalizations to some extent during our presence.  Unfortunately, we could
not record any of them.

    Although not mentioned on the website, the original article in Alula
references various behaviors appropriate to Oriental Cuckoo.  Personally, I
was struck by the size of the bird's home range (evidently several km sq.).
It moved long distances, perhaps nearly a km, between singing sessions
whilst we were there, unlike the several European Cuckoos at the same
location.  If one postulates that a male bird's song is to advertise its
presence to conspecifics, to warn other males from its territory and/or to
attract females, this bird evidently was not making any connections.

    No mention is made on the website whether any blood or tissue samples
were obtained when the bird was netted on 6-6-01.  DNA would seem to be the
best way to resolve uncertainty over its identification.

    I am insufficiently knowledgeable in these sibling species to offer any
opinion as to the Lieksa bird's identity.  Regardless of how uncertain one
may be that it is an Oriental Cuckoo, it seems even more unlikely to me
from the evidence available that it is a European Cuckoo.  Perhaps the poor
bird is simply, er, cuckoo.
------------------------------------------------------------
P William Smith
Ocean Shores, Washington 98569 USA
birdsmiths(AT)hotmail.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Wing photos - Heermann's Gulls and others
From: Bill or Sue Smith <birdsmiths(AT)hotmail.com>
Date: 19 Jun 2001 11:05am

For those trying to make more sense of birds' wings, a little-known
resource may be useful:

http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/wingphotos.html

In particular, for Heermann's Gulls,

http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/HMGUwing1.jpg

Bill Smith
-----------------
The Smiths
Grays Harbor, Washington USA
birdsmiths(AT)hotmail.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: "Eye-browed" thrush
From: Matt Heindel <MTHEINDEL(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 19 Jun 2001 6:09pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Guy McCaskie wrote
<<These are the same two pictures reviewed by knowledgeable persons in Alask=
a=20
and Southeast Asia a number of years ago.=A0 >>
Let me add a bit here. I used to travel to SE Asia regularly and at Guy's=20
(and an anonymous mole) suggestion, I took the slides Guy mentioned. On that=
=20
trip, I was birding with Dennis Yong, Malaysia's phenomenal birder, who=20
wrinkled his forehead and said "I assume this is your robin." Dennis has see=
n=20
untold thousands of eyebrows and none of our robins (as of my last=20
conversation with him). Geoff Carey and Paul Leader (two superb birders in=20
Hong Kong), and a few others as we were looking at pics at Paul's flat, were=
=20
equally adamant. In fact, Paul gave me a picture of obscurus so I could shar=
e=20
it with the committee so those without experience would "know what one looks=
=20
like," meaning he did not consider the image to look like one. Discussions=20
went beyond the color apparent in the slides as there is something very un=20
robin-like about Eye-browed Thrush. My experience with this species is low=20
(100 or so), so I do not want to overextend, but my sense is they are both=20
slighter and, for the most part, less patterned (dare I say more obscure?).=20
The bold flank cutoff, contrasting with white in the mystery photo, seem out=
=20
of sorts. I looked at the recent web pics and compared them to the slide=20
dupes, and although subtly different, I do not see anything that changes=20
things. I know Paul and Geoff are occasionally reading this list (although=20
with Paul as a new dad, he might be awhile!), so if they see the pics they=20
can reaffirm their position.=20
I do not know why the im shown in Jonnson is so bold, but have not seen this=
=20
in other books or pictures. Whether it is printing or the odd bird that migh=
t=20
be that bold is beyond my reach.  Nevertheless, I think when one sees=20
obscurus in the field, American Robin, while obviously related, is not a rea=
l=20
ID contender.

Matt Heindel
mtheindel(AT)aol.com
San Antonio TX

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Subject: Re: "Eye-browed" thrush
From: Paul J Leader <pjleader(AT)NETVIGATOR.COM>
Date: 20 Jun 2001 1:14am

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In response to Matt's comments I have the following to add.

There are a number of reasons why this thrush is not an Eye-browed:

1  The most immediate feature which does not fit Eye-browed is not =
plumage related, but the structure, this is clearly a rather bulky and =
deep chested thrush, whereas Eye-browed is a very slender, almost dainty =
bird.

2   The flank pattern is incorrect - it does end too abruptly, but more =
importantly it extends onto the belly too much.  On an Eye-browed Thrush =
the whitish belly would be visible on similar views.

3   While flank colour might fit an adult male, the white tips to the =
greater coverts indicate that this bird is a first-winter.  The head =
pattern is also incorrect for an adult male Eye-browed (lores would be =
clearly blackish and the head very grey)

4  The upperparts are too cold and appear distinctly greyish, on =
Eye-browed they are warmer and browner.

Paul Leader,
Hong Kong

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Subject: Re: "Eye-browed" thrush
From: Laurent Raty <l_raty(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 20 Jun 2001 3:15am

Hi all,

I was thinking to write an answer to this debate when Paul Leader's message
appeared in my mailbox.  His mail already covers many of the points I was
thinking to, but I still would like to add a few comments:

Paul J Leader wrote:
> There are a number of reasons why this thrush is not an Eye-browed:
>
> 1  The most immediate feature which does not fit Eye-browed is not
> plumage related, but the structure, this is clearly a rather bulky and
> deep chested thrush, whereas Eye-browed is a very slender, almost
> dainty bird.

Fully agreed.  Matt's bird also looks proportionately too small-headed and
too long-tailed (ie, Robin-like).

> 2   The flank pattern is incorrect - it does end too abruptly, but more
> importantly it extends onto the belly too much.  On an Eye-browed
> Thrush the whitish belly would be visible on similar views.
>
> 3   While flank colour might fit an adult male, the white tips to the
> greater coverts indicate that this bird is a first-winter.  The head
> pattern is also incorrect for an adult male Eye-browed (lores would
> be clearly blackish and the head very grey)

The eyebrow is clearly thinner and less obvious behind the eye than above
and in front of it, resulting in a general effect of broad, obvious broken
eyering and comparatively faint, diffuse supercilium.  All in all, this bird
looks much more eye-ringed than eye-browed - on Eye-browed Thrush, at any
age, it's usually the contrary.
Also, I feel that, on a 1W Eye-browed, the wingbar should look much more
dotted, less even and continuous than on Matt's bird - see
http://www.dff.fi/~rk/rkuvat/tairas.html (click on the pic for a larger
view) - note that this "quite decent" ;-) Finnish shot is from November, as
are Matt's pictures.

> 4  The upperparts are too cold and appear distinctly greyish, on
> Eye-browed they are warmer and browner.

...And the rump, particularly, is clearly gray, of a color not too
dissimilar from what can be seen on a normal American Robin - it should have
been warm brown, concolorous with back on an Eye-browed.

Lastly, it can require a close examination of the pics to see it, but this
bird clearly has white tail corners, visible on both images - this is,
again, typical of American Robin.

For those who are interested in the subject and would not know this page,
there's a short discussion about such pale variants of American Robin and
the risk to confuse them with Eye-browed Thrush by Don Roberson at:
http://www.montereybay.com/creagrus/AMRO_v_EBTH.html
(Would I dare to suggest that a constructive way to treat the problem could
be to create a link between this page and Matt's pictures?)

All the best,
Laurent

Laurent Raty
l_raty(AT)hotmail.com
Brussels, Belgium


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Subject: Re: "Eye-browed" thrush
From: Paul J Leader <pjleader(AT)NETVIGATOR.COM>
Date: 20 Jun 2001 8:28am

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I agree with most of the additional comments that Laurent has made, but =
would like to point out that a small number of Eye-browed Thrushes can =
show well defined white tips to the outer tail feathers, and that =
first-winters can show an unbroken wing bar similar to the bird in the =
photos.

Paul Leader
Hong Kong

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Subject: Re: "Eye-browed" thrush
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 20 Jun 2001 8:43am

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Another useful distinction would usually be behavior. Eye-browed and all
other NE Asian thrushes except Dusky tend to be shy and retiring. Any
'eye-browed' robin/thrush hopping around in the open in a field or lawn is
almost certainly a American Robin.

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Subject: Re: "Eye-browed" thrush
From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US>
Date: 20 Jun 2001 9:50am

HI ALL:
 FYI: eyebrow is one word so the hyphen isn't needed: Eyebrowed Thrush.
sincerely

Ian "Birdbooker" Paulsen
Bainbridge Is., WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
"Rallidae all the way"


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Subject: Median coverts in gulls from Steve Howell
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle(AT)PRBO.ORG>
Date: 20 Jun 2001 6:15pm

Steve asked me to forward the following. Cheers.

I understand that on 15 June Ron Pittaway wrote:
"Do gulls have 1 or 2 rows of median secondary coverts on the upper
wing?"

I have been looking at this problem for some time, but I wonder what the
true question is. The convention he asks about, as far as one can tell,
refers to passerines which, having confused molt homologies for years,
now appear to be confusing plumage nomenclature! The term "median
coverts" may have originated from songbirds with two wingbars or, one
hopes, from non-passerines.

If one looks at non-passerines, the situation is different from
passerines. In the last few days I have examined a selection of spread
wings (from Great-winged Petrel, Northern Fulmar, Black Storm-Petrel,
prions, Glaucous-winged and Grey-hooded gulls, Crested Auklet, Inca
Dove, Yellow-billed Cuckoo, Burrowing Owl, and Common Nighthawk). On
these species one can either say that 1) there are well-marked greater
and median secondary coverts that both align with the secondaries in
pattern of overlap, or 2) there are 2 rows of greater secondary coverts.

Greater coverts originate from near the secondaries and all are
dorso-ventrally oriented so that the greater secondary underwing coverts
are "upside down" - hence, e.g., the reflective surfaces one sees (on
Turkey Vulture, hawks, seabirds, and others) that blend with the
reflective ventral surface of the secondaries and contrast with the
"wing linings." There are, if one looks carefully, two rows of these
reversed coverts on the underwing, although the shorter set is often
covered by the wing-linings.

On gulls, the shorter set of these coverts (what I term the median
coverts) often drop very early in the molt (e.g., in August or September
the prealternate molt often starts with these coverts before the
prebasic molt has finished - hence the contrasting grey median-covert
panels often seen on second-winter large gulls).

But are these the true median coverts? If so, then passerines may lack
median coverts and their so-called ("conventional") median coverts may
be, in effect, simply the longest and largest lesser coverts. As far as
I can see (more critical examination would be helpful) the only wing
coverts that share overlapping direction with the secondaries are those
that originate from around the secondary bases and which, on the
underwings, are "upside down" - as well as the reflective surface note
the crease, or groove, near the base of these feathers - a feature of
the ventral shaft (the dorsal shaft surface is smooth). There are two
rows in most non-passerines (greaters and medians?) but I don't see two
rows of conventional medians in gulls, but what are conventional
medians?!

Well, this may not help (if it means that passerines really don't have
median coverts!), but I hope it provokes thought and examination of this
interesting matter. I thank Chris Corben for lessons in feather
topography that helped me recognize the "upside down" greater under
secondary coverts, and Peter Pyle for posting this for me.

- Steve Howell, 20 June 2001.