ID-FRONTIERS for July 1-7, 2001

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: Cannon Netting questioned   John Miles    Sun, 1 Jul 2001   4:32am   Re: Cannon Netting - Jenny Austin is Night Parrot   Barb Beck    Sun, 1 Jul 2001   7:53am   Off Topic Posts & Yellow-Redstart Hybrids   canyonwren    Sun, 1 Jul 2001   10:53am   New Gray Gull pics   Shawneen Finnegan    Sun, 1 Jul 2001   2:42pm   Fwd: RE: FW: [BIRDBAND] Vl: [EBN] Cannon Netting questioned   Jenny Austin    Sun, 1 Jul 2001   3:02pm   Listowner message   Will Russell    Sun, 1 Jul 2001   6:15pm   Grey Gull   paullarkin    Mon, 2 Jul 2001   8:59am   Which Kelp Gull?   Trevor Hardaker    Tue, 3 Jul 2001   12:00am   Mexican Owls   Dan Lockshaw    Tue, 3 Jul 2001   1:04pm   Fw: Filey reed warbler   iansimms    Fri, 6 Jul 2001   12:47am   Filey 'fuscus' Reed Warbler   Brian Small    Fri, 6 Jul 2001   3:06am   Re: Filey 'fuscus' Reed Warbler   Norman D.van Swelm   Fri, 6 Jul 2001   6:15am   Oriental Pratincole   Roland Asteling    Fri, 6 Jul 2001   8:54am   Oriental Pratincole   Roland Asteling    Fri, 6 Jul 2001   10:31am   Oriental Pratincole   Roland Asteling    Fri, 6 Jul 2001   12:11pm   Spruce Grouse   KACastelein and DJLa   Sat, 7 Jul 2001   5:37am   Re: Spruce Grouse   Jean Iron    Sat, 7 Jul 2001   11:47am   Re: Spruce Grouse booming   Rich Hoyer    Sat, 7 Jul 2001   1:23pm   Re: Spruce Grouse booming   Bill or Sue Smith    Sat, 7 Jul 2001   6:11pm

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'. This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Cannon Netting questioned
From: John Miles <miles(AT)KWIC.COM>
Date: 1 Jul 2001 4:32am

For those who do not subscribe this discussion is taking place concurrently
on the sister listserver BANDCHAT where the same original message was also
posted. Here those who use cannon nets are actively commenting on this
subject from experiences in both the USA and Britain. Mortality rates on
batches of 700+ birds are being reported as 0 or extremely low. No where
near the 4% figure quoted.
Cannon netting is not a tool used by most banders but by a few in
specialized situations. They can be a pain to use, it can take hours to
clean out the vegetation,  etc picked up before they can be refolded for use
again.
However while it is regretable that some mortality does take place
occasionally, it appears some are making a mountain out of a mole hile when
you consider the  10's of 1000's of birds killed annually by tall building,
TV towers, etc and the millions of critters killed in N.A. annually by free
roaming house cats.

John Miles
Jarvis
Ontario

----- Original Message -----
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Cannon Netting questioned

> There are some who have already stated, and lots of us who really wish,
> that this conversation be taken SOMEWHERE ELSE AS IT DOES NOT BELONG HERE!
>
> Note this is an ID listserver!!!!!!!!!
>
> Thank you for your cooperation
>
> Dave Lauten
> Bandon OR
> birdsong(AT)harborside.com
>
> Jenny Austin wrote:
>
> > Hello All
> >
> > Interesting proposition suggested here.  Picture this!  An
> > inexperienced holiday maker and her husband visiting from UK, volunteer
> > to assist with a ringing (banding) project in a foreign country that
> > prides itself on worlds best practice.  That would go down well,
> > wouldn't it.  I wonder if we all did that how the Aussies would vote in
> > their next independence referendum.
> >
> > Sorry to the cannon netters but what i saw at Broome seemed reasonably
> > professional and when I saw birds killed by their activity I realized
> > that it must happen everywhere else too and probably just covered up.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Jenny Austin
> > Birmingham
> >
> >
> > --- "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL> wrote:
> >
> >> John Ribble wrote:>    I am confused. Are you for ringing or not?
> >> I have been involved in ringing (banding) since 1958 either as
> >> trainee,
> >> assistant or on my own. I am for ringing as a tool to collect data
> >> that
> >> cannot otherwise obtained.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Are you saying that Jenny's
> >>> attitude is counterproductive to the cessation of ringing and are
> >>
> >> you
> >>
> >>> suggesting that rather than criticizing ringers, a better way should
> >>
> >> be
> >>
> >>> suggested to achieve the purpose of ringers? Is this the message you
> >>
> >> intended
> >>
> >>> to relate
> >>
> >> Jenny's criticism was based on the bad condition some waders were in
> >> during
> >> a trapping session in Australia. Why did she not release them or
> >> suggest a
> >> better way to keep them instead of condemning all research.
> >> Norman
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Cannon Netting - Jenny Austin is Night Parrot
From: Barb Beck <barb(AT)BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM>
Date: 1 Jul 2001 7:53am

Jenny Austin is  Night Parrot or one if its cohorts.

Why would she observe what she did and not report it to authorities.  She
was a guest but how does that change things.  If you are a guest in a
country and witness a beating or murder are you not supposed to report it to
authorities because you are a guest and because you are not a law
enforcement officer - give me a break!

Basically if she did witness such a thing with cannon netting she did not
lift a finger to correct the situation.  If it  really happened and is still
going on in the fashion she claims to have witnessed SHE is to blame.  She
is to blame for not contacting the proper banding authorities to either shut
down the operation or get more experienced people out there to monitor and
train the individuals doing the work.  Are we to believe that poor little
Jenny was too shy and timid to step forward and contact the proper banding
authorities after she witnessed the incident and yet goes out of her way to
discredit banding in a public forum  to thousands of people on the internet?
Note also that they spammed several mailing lists both in the US and Europe
with the message and yet did NOT post it to the proper group - BIRDBAND.

These people are plants with an agenda against banding or just to stir up
and disrupt discussion groups.  They have been around practically since the
start of the internet.  They can get temporary Yahoo addresses for free and
anonymously say anything they wish in any discussion group.  Note also that
she keeps posting to an inappropriate list inspite of public warnings on the
list and private messages sent to her.  Ignore these people they are just
frantically looking for their 15 minutes of fame.

Yes I know I have fallen into the trap and contributed to their 15 minutes.
I sincerely apologize for that.  There are a lot of very very conscientious
banders out there safely banding birds,  putting in long hours, and
meticulously taking and keeping track of data to try to find out more about
the birds that are trying to inhabit the planet with us.  If we do not know
what is going on we cannot protect them.

Barb Beck
Edmonton


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Off Topic Posts & Yellow-Redstart Hybrids
From: canyonwren <canyonwren(AT)ADSNET.COM>
Date: 1 Jul 2001 10:53am

Fellow subscribers to ID-Frontiers,
Possibly Will Russell, the listserv owner, is away from his computer and
cannot address this matter at the moment.

When I subscribed to this listserve, it was to contribute and benefit from
the topic of bird identification.

I have just completed researching the archives and find that since 25 June
2001, 50% of the posts to this listserv are discussions concerning banding,
ringing and methods employed.  THESE ARE NOT IDENTIFICATION TOPICS!!!

BIRDBAND, a listserv, also through the University of Arizona, may be the
place for your discussion.  Please pursue it there or elsewhere.  There are
more than 1100 subscribers to ID-Frontiers.  Let's be considerate of these
subscribers, please.

YELLOW  X  REDSTART Hybrid
This past week I observed a warbler that didn't fit any of the usual
categories.  Based on what I did observe, it had some characteristics that
fit Yellow and some that fit Redstart.  How can I be sure, short of
collecting the bird, that it was a hybird of these two?  Is there a
reference or webpage with specific details on how I can ascertain that?  Are
there photos on the web that will help.  I know that my numberous references
at home contain none.  Did I miss a relevant part of this discussion that
would help?

Thanks for your response.

Lynea

Lynea Hinchman
Michigan City, IN
canyonwren(AT)adsnet.com

Use Channel 11 subcode 22 in Indiana


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: New Gray Gull pics
From: Shawneen Finnegan <zoothera.cm(AT)VERIZON.NET>
Date: 1 Jul 2001 2:42pm

Greetings:

I have scanned three original slides of the Louisiana Gray Gull and Bob
Barber has been kind enough to post them to his website. To view them go
to:

http://odonate.com/birds/GrayGull.html

The print that I had scanned was made from a duplicate slide, which I
also have in hand to compare to the original. The duplicate is much
redder in tone and lighter in exposure. The slides on the website are
much closer to the original slides, though the darker two of the three
may be a wee bit darker than the original slides. On two out of the
three the legs look pretty black on the original slides, but they are
the softest of the three. If there is any pink to the birds legs it is
minimal and may be a byproduct of the conditions when the photos were
taken. Paul reminded me that it was raining when we saw the bird. We
didn't have much time to view or photograph it because our car was in
the middle of a line for a small ferry and we had to move the car right
after he had taken these shots.

I look forward to any other comments people might have.

Shawneen Finnegan
Cape May, New Jersey


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Fwd: RE: FW: [BIRDBAND] Vl: [EBN] Cannon Netting
         questioned
From: Jenny Austin <jenny0jenny(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 1 Jul 2001 3:02pm

Hello All

Sorry for the off topic content however in light of the abuse and
flaming being directed at me for simply agreeing with sentiments of a
posting from the anonymous "Night parrot", please have a look at the
example of this message and see what you think.  I am certainly not a
night parrot and was not aware there was anything wrong with having a
Yahoo address which we use to access mail from anywhere in the world.

In regards to the suggestion that I should have intervened in the
cannon netting operation at Broome, as previously stated, the idea of a
visiting inexperienced assistant on holiday, intervening in what
appeared to be a professional operation is absurd.   Although I have
been concerned about the kill ever since, it was not until i saw the
"night parrot" posting that i was encouraged to speak out too.  All
subsequent posts from me have been in reply to abusive messages on the
list from others and i have been trying to defend myself.   In respect
to others, i am happy to keep my discussion about this topic off the
list providing my private responses are not misused and reposted on the
list out of context, such as what has happened with the one below and
the subsequent posting that accuses me of being a "Night Parrot".

Im not sure why there is such a hostile attitude to discussing a
subject that clearly needs review.  Some writers have suggested there
is a strong guilt complex among the ringing community.  Bird ringing
has clearly provided important information to help bird conservation in
the past but it seems that it's time is now up, as there is enough
information.  In most cases we know what is required for bird habitat
protection strategies to be developed.  Losses resulting from cannon
netting, particularly to targeted rare and endangered species cannot be
justified any longer but the people who are involved for pleasure
cannot see the mood of change.

Ringing is a highly intrusive and cruel practice and the injuries
caused from accidents are intolerable in light of the reduced need for
the information that is discovered from this process.  What does it
matter if a shorebird feeding area is frequented by 1st year birds,
females or a subspecies from Siberia or Alaska.  It is obvious that if
an area is frequented by these birds it is important and must be
protected.  The data collected by ringers is usually just to satisfy
human curiosity that in time would probably be satisfied using less
obtrusive methods.

Any way that it from me.

Jenny Austin
Birmingham

--- Barb Beck <barb(AT)birdnut.obtuse.com> wrote:
> From: "Barb Beck" <barb(AT)birdnut.obtuse.com>
> To: "Jenny Austin" <jenny0jenny(AT)yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: FW: [BIRDBAND] Vl: [EBN] Cannon Netting questioned
> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 07:27:14 -0600
>
> Certainly if you are truly concerned you would have not tried to stop
> the
> operations that day but voiced your opinion to the banding
> authorities in
> any juristiction you were in.
>
> Yahoo addresses are for people who hit and run.  They are free, easy
> to get,
> and no controls as I am sure you know.
>
> You can certainly look up BIRDBAND.  It part of the same family as
> BIRDCHAT
> AND BIRDWG01.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jenny Austin [mailto:jenny0jenny(AT)yahoo.com]
> Sent: July 1, 2001 5:12 AM
> To: Barb Beck
> Subject: Re: FW: [BIRDBAND] Vl: [EBN] Cannon Netting questioned
>
> Oh Babs you birdnut
>
> Are you admonishing me for being an old lady with a love for birds
> and
> a care for fairness?  No, I could not step in and release the birds
> and
> tell the experts to stop their operation.  I was not brought up that
> way.  I was told that the kill was within acceptable limits so why
> would i report them?  I was only an inexperienced visitor.  Of course
> the kill was not acceptable to me and after reading the message from
> the writer named Night parrot i felt encouraged to speak out about
> the
> abominable practice that I witnessed.
>
> I don't understand your attack about Yahoo but i guess you are upset
> so
> i understand that you are probably not sure of what you are really
> saying.  Any way i hope we understand each other now.  Good birding.
>
> regards
>
> Jenny
>
>
> --- Barb Beck <barb(AT)birdnut.obtuse.com> wrote:
> > I suggest you read the below.  If you were so concerned about what
> > you
> > witnessed why on earth did you not report the incident to the
> proper
> > banding
> > authorities in that juristicition.  People like you keeping silent
> > and doing
> > nothing to prevent those who are doing things incorrectly only add
> to
> > the
> > problem.  If there was a sloppy crew out there the proper
> authorities
> > should
> > have been informed to prevent them from continuing to kill and
> injur
> > birds.
> >
> > Or is the reason that you never witnessed the thing at all and are
> > probably
> > just Night Parrot with some crazy stuff about people getting
> sexually
> > aroused by banding.  UGH
> >
> > I see you are just another Yahoo address.
> >
> > Barb Beck
> > Edmonton
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On
> > Behalf Of
> > Scott Weidensaul
> > Sent: June 28, 2001 9:05 PM
> > To: BIRDBAND(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] Vl: [EBN] Cannon Netting questioned
> >
> >   Nothing like an anonymous screed to get a conversation started...
> >
> >   While most of my banding involves raptors (mist-netting, bownets
> > and
> > bal-chatris) or passerines (mist nets again), several times for
> each
> > of the
> > past three springs I've gone to Cape May, N.J., to assist in
> banding
> > and
> > color-flagging of shorebirds using the Delaware Bay as a migratory
> > stopover. This is cannon-netting work that's conducted under the
> > auspices
> > of the NJ Division of Fish, Game and Wildlife's endangered species
> > program,
> > and is targeted at three at-risk species -- red knots, ruddy
> > turnstones and
> > sanderlings, all of which depend to a greater or lesser extent on
> > horseshoe
> > crab eggs. (For those not familiar with the situation, serious
> > commercial
> > overfishing of crab stocks in the past decade has jeopardized this
> > hemispherically important stopover site, and reduced egg density by
> > more
> > than 90 percent, and appears to be having a significant impact on
> > waders,
> > especially knots.)
> >
> >   While the netting is done under the state's permit, most of the
> > crew
> > (roughly two dozen people) year in and year out are from overseas
> --
> > the
> > UK, Australia, New Zealand and South America. (Most of these folks,
> > incidentally, pay their own way to New Jersey every year, and spend
> > as much
> > as a month working every day, for they they receive no compensation
> > beyond
> > a cramped beach house in Reed's Beach; they even pay for their own
> > groceries.)
> >
> >   I've lost count of the number of cannon shots I've been a part of
> > over
> > the years, and I frankly find the notion of an average 4 percent
> > mortality
> > tough to accept, based on my experience in N.J. Time after time
> that
> > I've
> > been involved in, the mortality was zero, usually with captures of
> > 100-200
> > birds. This spring we had one exceptional day with more than a
> > thousand
> > birds netted in a single shot, and although we released about 300
> > semipalm
> > and least sandpipers at the net, we processed (if memory serves)
> 729
> > birds,
> > the biggest catch in the project's history. As far as I'm aware,
> > there were
> > two dead birds and one or two injuries, and they were the first
> > mortalities
> > I've seen in three years.
> >
> >   I'll admit my experience is limited to a single project and three
> > seasons, but considering it attracts the top wader ringers from
> > across the
> > world, I'd guess we were getting a pretty good cross-section. I
> don't
> > know
> > who "Night Parrot" is, or what bug he/she has up their particular
> > butt
> > about cannon-netting, but I'm inclined to ignore anyone without the
> > gumption to provide their name or some hard data. (To say nothing
> of
> > making
> > such outrageous claims, based on things "said by more than person,"
> > about
> > sexual arousal on the part of cannon-netters with a new
> bird...really
> > now,
> > folks, this is supposed to be a professional list.)
> >
> >   Scott "Not a Pseudonym" Weidensaul
> >   sweidnsl(AT)pottsville.infi.net
> >   Schuylkill Haven, Pa. USA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Hi
> > >
> > >One anonymous Night Parrot sent the following message to
> > EUROBIRDNET.
> > >That very NON-objective and wrongly done poll raised quite a
> > discussion.
> > >I thought that it could raise some good points on the other side
> of
> > >Atlantic I mean in BIRDBAND
> > >so I forward it to you all.
> > >
> > >-tuomo-
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: Night Parrot <night_parr0t(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >To: <EUROBIRDNET(AT)listserv.funet.fi>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 5:14 AM
> > >Subject: [EBN] Cannon Netting questioned
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hello everybody
> > >>
> > >> You may have heard about the current debate over the moral
> ethics
> > of
> > cannon
> > >> netting and banding migratory waders.
> > >>
> > >> Universal disgust has been expressed since it was revealed that
> > cannon
> > >> netting inflicts an average mortality rate of more than 4% and
> > that the
> > >> survival of waders, once banded is very low.  But still the die
> > hard
> > banders
> > >> refuse to accept that it's time to cease this barbaric practice
> > and
> > modify
> > >> their hobby.  They believe that cannon netting is an essential
> > tool used
> > for
> > >> research and that the end result is justified irrespective of
> the
> > horrific
> > >> mortality and injury rate.
> > >>
> > >> Many observers have pointed out that banding waders has been
> > useful in
> > the
> > >> past but its time to stop because most of the interest now is
> > intrinsic
> > and
> > >> is no longer necessary or needed for wader conservation or
> habitat
> > >> management.
> > >>
> > >> As a result of this ongoing debate, a poll is being conducted
> > where
> > >> observers have been asked to indicate; Are you in favor of
> cannon
> > netting,
> > >> yes or no?   We were swamped by replies and some are still
> > trickling in.
> > So
> > >> far, its not looking too good for the cannon netters and almost
> > unanimously
> > >> this practice is now condemned, particularly catching waders
> prior
> > to
> > their
> > >> migration.
> > >>
> > >> Some of the trends emerging in the discussion are interesting.
> > >>
> > >> Comments such as, "cannon netting participants generally lack
> > competence
> > in
> > >> field identification of waders and many can id, only when a bird
> > is held
> > in
> > >> the hand" needs further qualification before any results can be
> > concluded.
> > >>
> > >> It would be helpful if we could get a little more information
> > about why
> > so
> > >> many observers feel that association with cannon netting taints
> > ones
> > >> reputation.
> > >>
> > >> Another interesting observation made by more than one is; "some
> > cannon
> > >> netters seem to experience a level of sexual arousal when
> handling
> > live
> > >> birds".
> > >>
> > >> Of course the overwhelming response has been general concern
> about
> > the
> > >> mortality, cruelty and trauma that is inflicted upon the
> targeted
> > birds
> > and
> > >> also the single minded attitude, science at any cost without
> > regard to
> > the
> > >> consequences, which seems to prevail among cannon netters.
> > >>
> > >> Results of the Cannon Netting poll will be posted soon.  Not
> > wishing to
> > >> create controversial discussion on this list, if you wish to
> > comment
> > >> further, please feel free to mail your response directly to my
> > address.
> > >> Your reply will be treated as confidential and only its content
> > will be
> > >> used.
> > >>
> > >> Night Parrot
> > >>
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________________
> > >> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > http://www.hotmail.com.
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Listowner message
From: Will Russell <russell(AT)RTD.COM>
Date: 1 Jul 2001 6:15pm

However interesting and provocative the subject of cannon netting may
be, it is not a topic that should be aired on ID-Frontiers.  Please
exercise self-restraint when confronted with such a post (on cannon
netting or any other off-topic subject) and if you must respond, respond
directly to original poster.

Thanks,

Will Russell - Listowner


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Grey Gull
From: paullarkin <paullarkin(AT)PGEN.NET>
Date: 2 Jul 2001 8:59am

What Ho!
Not being familiar with Grey Gull I thought a quick look through Enticott &
Tipling's Seabirds of the world was in order, this revealed three shots of
Grey Gull on p150. Two with definite black legs described as adult breeding,
one with what look like pinkish legs described as adult non breeding. If
these shots are reproduced correctly (and typical), and given that most
black pigment in bare parts is actually due to very large amounts of dark
red pigment, is it not possible that the legs get "redder" i.e. black in the
breeding period?
Just a thought.
Paul

["I am prepared to consider evidence and accept if it satisfies me" -  M.R.
James.]


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Which Kelp Gull?
From: Trevor Hardaker <trevor(AT)DHK.CO.ZA>
Date: 3 Jul 2001 12:00am

Greetings from a wet Cape Town,

Calling all gull specialists, especially those who have field experience of
both nominate Kelp Gull (Larus d. dominicanus) and "Cape" Kelp Gull (Larus
d. vetula). There is very little in the literature on how to definitively
separate these 2 races, which are also often considered as separate species.

We have added a bird to the mystery bird pages on our website at
http://www.zestforbirds.co.za which was photographed near Cape Town on 1
July 2001. What is known of the nominate form and its movements? Are they
fairly sedentary or is it possible that one of these could turn up in South
Africa? Or do you think that this is just an aberrant L. d. vetula?

We hope to hear from some of you out there on what you think this bird is
and why?

We have also added some comments that have been received on our mystery
martin.

Looking forward to hearing from some of you.

Kind Regards
Trevor and John
---------------------------------------------------------
Trevor Hardaker and John Graham
Cape Town, South Africa
ZEST for BIRDS
Website: http://www.zestforbirds.co.za
---------------------------------------------------------


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Mexican Owls
From: Dan Lockshaw <dan100(AT)HOME.COM>
Date: 3 Jul 2001 1:04pm

Hi all,
 Bruce Webb and I have recently returned from Baja California and the
west coast of mainland Mexico, mainly in search of owls (for the web
site owling.com). The intent of the web site is to help birders
identify, students learn, and the non-birders enjoy the owls with
photos, sounds and text (video soon). This also of course translates to
conservation.
 There is a wealth of knowledge here amongst (you) the readers. The
owling.com site is and can be an excellent tool for identification
issues regarding this one group of birds. Please come visit
http://owling.com and add to this resource. Your comments, helpful
critiques and additions would be highly appreciated.
 The Mexican Owls are new and not all completed yet but I invite and
request your comments and additions. There is also a new section with
all the endemic Baja birds. I hope the future of this site will bring
many contributors with articles regarding identification issues, many
more photos, vocalizations, comparative sounds, video, chat room(?),...
et concerning this group of birds.
 Hopefully the future of the internet will continue to expand as a
resource for all groups of birds. It will take an effort on all of our
parts to be involved and to offer these type of resources. As I consider
this listserv, how nice would it be to be able to have a full set of
multimedia bird sites available to reference in these discussions (even
if this isn't the proper forum to suggest it)?

Thanks,
Dan Lockshaw
Aliso Viejo, CA
dan100(AT)home.com
http://owling.com

P.S. No, I do not have any plans for doing this with Warblers,
Seabirds.... !


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Fw: Filey reed warbler
From: iansimms <iansimms(AT)NTLWORLD.COM>
Date: 6 Jul 2001 12:47am

   Dear all,
    hope you can help Pete in his quest to ID this acro, he will be sure
   to appreciate any observations on plumage, in hand or in the field and
also
   on song( not just this bird in the UK but any birds anywhere)
                 thanks    ian simms
>
>
> > Ian, this is the text I sent but have heard nothing, can you send it to
> > ukbnirdnet on my behalf please.
> >
> > "I am trying to pull together as much information on this bird and also
on
> > 'Caspian Reed Warbler' I was wondering if anyone has any video or sound
> > records of them (the Filey bird and also known Caspian from breeding
area)
> > so I can do a comparison.  Although biometrics and in-hand features show
> the
> > characteristics of 'Caspian' (comparing with the information given with
> the
> > Fair Isle bird featured in Birding World)  I am still not convinced or
> > should I say confused as there is very little information published on
> this
> > race.  I have tried taping the Filey bird this morning with an ordinary
> mic.
> > but it is not clear because of wind and background noise.  I can be
> > contacted on pjd(AT)fbog.co.uk
> >
> > The presence of pale (white) tips to the outer tail feathers and a
slight
> > emargination on the 4th primary are featured in the Fair Isle
description
> > (the Filey bird has these) but I have found at least on in hand photo of
> an
> > autumn immature Reed with white tail spots in my collection.  Has anyone
> got
> > some good photos of Reed (in-hand and field shots) that can be checked.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Peter Dunn"
> >
>


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Filey 'fuscus' Reed Warbler
From: Brian Small <BrianJSmall(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 6 Jul 2001 3:06am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

In response to Ian Simm's request for information re fuscus Reed Warbler, I=20
copy a document I have been working on wth David Pearson.  In this we have=20
been attempting to establish accurate criteria in identifying Acrocephalus=20
scirpaceus fuscus.=20

It applies largely to fresh birds (wear negates many of the features and=20
possibly identification is unsafe by early July), and is not intended to be=20
the final word on such a complicated subject: if anybody has comments on thi=
s=20
I would be very grateful to hear them.  If you thought separating Blyth's=20
Reed from Reed Warbler was hard........=20

"Criteria for separating Eastern Reed Warbler=20
Whilst doing research for illustrations of eastern Reed Warbler Acrocephalus=
=20
scirpaceus fuscus, I have tried to establish details to help with its=20
separation from both nominate Reed A s scirpaceus and Marsh Warbler A=20
palustris.  I have been able to draw upon the experience of Peter Kennerley,=
=20
but am especially grateful to David Pearson for his great help in this=20
process.  =20

In any attempt to find usable criteria for separating fuscus from nominate=20
scirpaceus, the first traditional ports of call in the literature would be=20
BWP and Svensson.=20

From BWP=20
Field Characters.  At all times, duller- and cooler-toned than nominate=20
scirpaceus, with grey tinge on head and nape, grey to olive tone on back,=20
wings and tail interrupted by contrasting, relatively warm buff or sandy rum=
p=20
and upper tail-coverts, and merely buff (not rusty) tone from breast to unde=
r=20
tail-coverts.=20

Geographical variation. Variation in colour apparently not clinal, fuscus in=
=20
USSR being separated from nominate scirpaceus by gap in distribution...fuscu=
s=20
from Asia always paler than nominate scirpaceus from western and central=20
Europe.  Typical adult fuscus..has upperparts and fringes of tail and=20
upperwing distinctly greyer than nominate scirpaceus, less saturated,=20
brown-grey rather than dusky olive-grey; rump and upper tail-coverts paler o=
r=20
sandy-grey or greyish-buff; supercilium, eye-ring and underparts whiter, sid=
e=20
of breast and flank more restricted greyish cream; tip and distal part of=20
inner web of outer tail feathers indistinctly fringed off-white; juvenile=20
more buff-brown on upperparts than adult, more extensively pale buff on=20
underparts, but still not as rufous as juvenile nominate scirpaceus.=20

DP and I both agree that there is too much emphasis on grey in the=20
description of fuscus by Roselaar.  There is a grey caste usually limited to=
=20
the head and nape; the rump and upper-tail coverts are paler, but with a=20
tawny or sandy-buff tinge, clearly paler and less strongly cinnamon than in=20
scirpaceus.  There is no significant difference in supercilium or eye-ring=20
colour.=20

From Svensson=20
Ssp. fuscus..is slightly greyer olive-brown than nominate, less tinged=20
rufous, above, and slightly whiter, less creamy buff, on sides of breast and=
=20
flanks. In worn plumage becomes paler than nominate.  2nd P on average very=20
slightly shorter, usually =3D4/5, only very rarely longer=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=
=A6Often a faint=20
emarg.=20
near the tip of 4th P.=20

In the field (and also in the hand), fuscus is very similar to worn A=20
palustris.=20

Svensson=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s description is much better than that in BW=
P, particularly his=20
comment about the similarity of the upperpart colour of fuscus to worn=20
palustris; DP comments that even some fresh birds in the hand are practicall=
y=20
identical in head and upperpart colour, especially if the tawny tinge to rum=
p=20
is lacking (in grey-brown morphs). However, it is likely that palustris is=20
always very slightly more olive above and always yellow- or ochre-tinged=20
below.=20

A more recent and up-to-date treatment of fuscus appears in Dutch Birding 20=
:=20
36-37, 1998 in an assessment of a mystery bird.  From this can be gleaned th=
e=20
following.  This species, breeding from the Caspian region eastwards and=20
wintering in eastern Africa, is a potential straggler to northwestern Europe=
.=20
 Structurally, Caspian Reed is (very) similar to European Reed, but its=20
plumage is distinctly paler and greyer and thus more like Marsh (but with=20
some differences).  The upperparts of Caspian Reed are pale brown-grey,=20
distinctly greyer and less brown than European Reed. Caspian Reed lacks the=20
prominent rufous or brown tones of European Reed (rump rather pale sandy-gre=
y=20
or brown-grey, but sometimes, mainly first-years, rather brown, possibly eve=
n=20
warm brown). When compared with Marsh, Caspian Reed is on average even=20
slightly paler and greyer lacking the green tinge to the upperparts of most=20
Marsh (but there is of course some variation and some Caspian Reed appear=20
very similar to Marsh).  =20

The underparts of Caspian Reed are rather similar to thoseof Marsh but are o=
n=20
average even marginally whiter and more uniform, with a barely visible=20
buffish suffusion to the flanks.=20

Rather distinct pale edges and tips to the outer tail feathers..appear to be=
=20
present more often in Caspian Reed than in Marsh and, especially, European=20
Reed.  Due to this feature and the coloration of the upperparts and=20
underparts, Caspian Reed can show a striking resemblance to (Eastern)=20
Olivaceous Warbler.=20

The above makes it sound easy, but we comment as follows:  structurally,=20
fuscus is identical to scirpaceus, particularly when you consider that in E=20
Africa long-winged =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=CB=9Cscipaceus=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2 oc=
cur (see below); again a lot of=20
emphasis on=20
grey, which DP feels is not typical of fresh fuscus, we also defy anybody to=
=20
see =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=CB=9Crufous=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2 in scirpaceus - it i=
s a richer brown or olive-brown above=20
with=20
a slightly more cinnamon tone to the scapulars, wing covert fringes and rump=
;=20
fuscus is neither =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=CB=9Con average=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2 sl=
ightly paler above than, nor=20
=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=CB=9Crather=20
similar=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2 below to palustris =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C=20=
the underparts are the best means of=20
distinguishing the two. The similarity to Olivaceous is only in those fuscus=
=20
that are totally greyish brown above (see below).=20

Following detailed discussion with DP, comparing specimens, in which we=20
concentrated on defining the exact colour of the plumage of fuscus, we have=20
come up with the following details on plumage and moult which should aid=20
identification. These are by no means the last word, but DP, who has handled=
=20
many thousands of fuscus and scirpaceus, feels that they give a good picture=
=20
of fuscus.=20

Typical fuscus.  Fresh plumage, as in E Africa Dec-April and on spring=20
passage:  upperparts a fairly rich, slightly creamy, brown or olive-brown=20
(very similar to scirpaceus, but slightly less rich), with a greyish caste=20
confined to the head and nape, and the rump and upper-tail coverts usually=20
with a paler, warm sandy, ochreous, or tawny tinge. Lacks warmth on the=20
mantle and scapulars, which are slightly paler than in nominate scirpaceus.=20
The wing feather edgings in these fresh birds are buffy brown, slightly=20
richer than upperpart colour.  The underparts are off-white with a buffy=20
brown wash across the breast and along the sides and flanks - this brown was=
h=20
is less intense, less warm-tinged and less extensive than in nominate=20
scirpaceus, and gives a very slightly paler appearance to the underparts of=20
fuscus.=20

There is probably no significant difference in face pattern between=20
scirpaceus and fuscus, though the ear coverts may be somewhat paler, giving=20=
a=20
paler faced appearance. The pale fringes and tips of the outer tail feathers=
=20
are rather prominent, with the pale distal fringes and tips really quite=20
distinct from below and above, where the tips contrast more with the darker=20
upperside of the rectrices, and can be seen on T6, T5 and T4. Compared with=20
palustris, fresh fuscus is very similar in colour above and can even be=20
identical, but usually differs in its greyer-tinged head and warm-tinged=20
rump, and lacks the distinct greenish tone shown by many palustris. Below, o=
f=20
course, fuscus is whiter than palustris, and never shows the yellowish-buff=20
wash characteristic of that species.=20

Many fuscus (perhaps 40 -50%) moult later in Africa than W African wintering=
=20
scirpaceus, between December and March, and there is, therefore a tendency=20
for fuscus to possess fresher wings in spring than scirpaceus, and this can=20
be evidenced by fresh primaries showing distinct pale primary tips, rather=20
like palustris though often not as distinct.  This may also explain the whit=
e=20
tips to the tail. However, scirpaceus-coloured birds winter in East Africa=20
(and make up about 25-30% of the total there) and these too include many=20
birds that moult late. Thus, by no means all fresh-looking spring Reeds are=20
fuscus. In worn plumage the distinction of fuscus from scirpaceus is less=20
easy, though the upperparts tend to be paler, more buffy brown and the=20
underparts very white.=20

First autumn fuscus in Kazakhstan in August differ from the W European=20
equivalent in much the same way as in the fresh adult, i.e. paler brown=20
uppers with restricted warmth on the rump, grey-tinged head, and whiter=20
underparts. First autumn birds are a bit duller or buffer (less olive-brown,=
=20
perhaps) than fresh adults and become pretty drab in Africa by November.=20

Greyer fuscus. A small component (perhaps 5%) of E African winterers are=20
greyer than typical fuscus, more or less uniform greyish brown above from=20
head to upper-tail coverts, with no warmth on the rump (quite similar to=20
fresh Eastern Olivaceous Warbler Hippolais pallida elaeica).These birds are=20
also whiter below than typical fuscus. In eastern Kazakhstan, such birds mak=
e=20
up a higher proportion (perhaps 15-20%) of the total, which may be an=20
indication of a very eastern breeding origin.  These could cause enormous=20
confusion if seen in the field in Western Europe.  Further to these grey=20
birds, two odd birds trapped in Belgium and Sussex (and a specimen in Leiden=
)=20
recently showed no brown tones at all and were completely grey, almost like=20
Upcher=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s Warbler H languida, and had blue-grey legs.=20

Wing length and structure. Spring fuscus average 68-69mm in E Africa (about=20
the same as Marsh Warbler), range 64-75mm.  The warm-coloured scirpaceus=20
types in E Africa are also long-winged, average again 68-69mm, and the=20
longest-winged bird DP has caught in Kenya, with a wing of 76mm, was one of=20
these.  So, while a wing of 73mm or more would indicate an eastern Reed=20
population it does not necessarily mean fuscus (as we define it on plumage=20
colour). There is still no indication of where these long-winged scirpaceus=20
-types in East Africa come from.  There are smaller fuscus breeding in the=20
Levant and in Arabia (wing 61-66mm), which seem to reach Sudan but not E=20
Africa: these breed early (March/April) with wings already worn, presumably=20
after an autumn moult, the worn appearance most distinct when alongside=20
fresher typical, long-winged fuscus in April.=20
 =20
Wing structure differs little between E African fuscus and European=20
scirpaceus=20
, but the second primary tends to be slightly shorter.  It is usually betwee=
n=20
p4 and p5 (or =3D p4), less often longer than p4, and frequently as short as=
=20
p5. European birds more commonly have p2 longer than p4, and rarely have it=20
as short as p5. But this difference is unlikely to assist much in deciding=20
the provenance of an individual trapped bird. Also, the tendency to have a=20
shorter second primary was just as evident in the eastern scirpaceus-types=20
caught in Uganda as in typical fuscus.=20

A feature mentioned in Svensson is that of a slight emargination on p4, and=20=
a=20
critical examination of a number of specimens of spring fuscus shows that=20
there may be a slight or even quite distinct emargination equal to p7 or p8=20
(cf plate 8, DB, 20; 38, 1998). However, on most it is absent or only a=20
slight kink, and is matched by some scirpaceus.=20

Summary=20
For spring birds, in fresh typical plumage, we can therefore draw up a list=20
or suite of characters that could separate fuscus from scirpaceus in the han=
d=20
=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C I would not have confidence in an observer=C3=A2=
=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s assessment of plumage=20
tones=20
in the field.  The following are in no particular order, bit I would feel=20
that an acceptable description should mention all or four out of the five,=20
and be compared with scirpaceus by an experienced ringer.=20

1 Upperparts =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C pale, less rich (creamy) olive-brown,=20=
tinged greyish on=20
the head and nape, and with a paler sandy ginger or tawny-buff rump and=20
upper-tail coverts.  Scirpaceus is a richer brown, with a warmer cinnamon=20
tone, though still very similar.=20
2 Underparts =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C pale, almost white, with a pale buff o=
r cream wash=20
restricted to the breast sides and flanks (ie., whiter than nominate).=20
3 Wings =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C primaries often fresh, with distinct pale t=
ips (eight should=20
be visible beyond the tertials on the closed wing), with wing coverts edged=20=
a=20
buff-brown, less cinnamon than scirpaceus.  Biometrics could indicate a=20
slightly longer wing than average scirpaceus and with p2 tending to be equal=
=20
to or shorter than p5.=20
4        Tail =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C distinct whitish tips and distal frin=
ge to T6, and whitish=20
tips to T5 and T4, though these can also be seen on some scirpaceus.=20
5 Head pattern =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C Possibly could show a paler =C3=A2=
=E2=82=AC=CB=9Cface=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2, with a slightly=20
more contrasting pale supercilium and white eye-ring, but this may be to do=20
with the fresher spring plumage.=20

This does not, of course, even bring in to play hybrids, and song is=20
virtually identical.=20
Brian Small=20
April 2001=20

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Filey 'fuscus' Reed Warbler
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 6 Jul 2001 6:15am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

   =20
   =20
    Brian Small wrote:>In response to Ian Simm's request for information =
re fuscus Reed Warbler, I=20
    copy a document I have been working on wth David Pearson.  In this =
we have=20
    been attempting to establish accurate criteria in identifying =
Acrocephalus=20
    scirpaceus fuscus. <
   =20
    Brian and others,
    In 1984, Peter de Knijff and I published a simple and effective =
method to distinguish Reed Warbler Acrocephalus s.scirpaceus and Marsh =
Warbler Acrocephalus palustris on the basis of wing and notch length in =
P2 (N.van Swelm & P.de Knijff.1984. A  new method for identifying =
A.palustris, A.scirpaceus and A.dumetorum in the hand. Voorne Bird =
Observatory. Report for 1983) and in doing so solved a problem that had =
haunted all warbler students in the last century! Our study was =
mentioned in Walinder et al 1988 (Ringing & Migration 9:55-62) and Cramp =
(Vol.VI,1992). Svensson however has so far chosen to ignore our study =
with the apparent result that people are still trying to invent the =
wheel (See f.i. Wilson et al.2001. Identification of Marsh Warblers =
A.palustris and Reed Warblers A.scirpaceus on autumn migration through =
the eastern Mediterranean. Ringing & Migration 20:224-232)1
    At the time I wrote to other researchers to obtain measurements we =
could not take ourselves in order to refine our method f.i. to David =
Pearson for A.s.fuscus. Unfortunately David never replied. So I direct =
my request to you: can you supply us with individual measurements of =
A.s.fuscus involving the llength of wing and notch on P2? I am quite =
convinced it will help you in your attempts to distinguish A.s.fuscus =
from A.palustris!
    Many thanks in advance, Norman van Swelm

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Oriental Pratincole
From: Roland Asteling <roland.asteling(AT)TELIA.COM>
Date: 6 Jul 2001 8:54am

Dear All

Could anyone with knowledge have a look at those pictures of Sweden's
first Oriental Pratincole. Any comment would be most welcomed.

http://home.swipnet.se/0108/vadarsvala.htm

Thanks in advance

Roland Asteling
SWEDEN


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Oriental Pratincole
From: Roland Asteling <roland.asteling(AT)TELIA.COM>
Date: 6 Jul 2001 10:31am

Dear all

Excuse me but there are more pictures of the pratincole at:

http://www.club300.se/galleri/special44.crm

Once again I'm sorry to take up Your time with a double posting.

Roland Asteling
SWEDEN


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Oriental Pratincole
From: Roland Asteling <roland.asteling(AT)TELIA.COM>
Date: 6 Jul 2001 12:11pm

Dear all

Excuse me again but the URL was wrong in my last posting.

http://www.club300.se/galleri/special44.cfm

Once again I'm sorry to take up Your time with a triple posting.

Roland Asteling
SWEDEN


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Spruce Grouse
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 7 Jul 2001 5:37am

Hello folks,

Question concerning Spruce Grouse:  for years several authors have
stated that Spruce Grouse "boom" somewhat like Blue Grouse.  However,
there seem to be some doubts about this.  Do Spruce Grouse really boom?
  Or do they just do the wing display thing?  Has anyone really
heard/seen Spruce Grouse boom?  Does anyone actually have a known
recording of Spruce Grouse booming?  Thanks

Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Spruce Grouse
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 7 Jul 2001 11:47am

Dear ID-Frontiers,

Dave Lauten asked "Do Spruce Grouse really boom?"

E.A. Boag and M.A. Schroeder (1992) in the Birds of North America (#5) say
that there is no proof that Spruce Grouse boom. They also say this idea
probably originated from a misidentification of the interior form of the
Blue Grouse. Boag (cited above) also studied Blue Grouse.

Ron Tozer and I wrote a guide to "Finding the Phantom Spruce Grouse" in the
August 1990 issue of Ontario Birds 8 (2): 41-54, which was based on our
many years of experience with this species in Algonquin Park. We also have
never heard a booming Spruce Grouse.

Ron Pittaway
Minden, Ontario
E-mail: jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca

Jean Iron
President, Ontario Field Ornithologists
9 Lichen Place
Toronto, Ontario M3A 1X3
Canada
Phone: 416-445-9297
e-mail: jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca
Web Page: http://www.interlog.com/~ofo


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Spruce Grouse booming
From: Rich Hoyer <calliope(AT)THERIVER.COM>
Date: 7 Jul 2001 1:23pm

Dear ID People,

There is a booming bird labelled Spruce Grouse on the Peterson tapes (A
Field Guide to Western Bird Songs), and it is deeper than the Blue Grouse. I
suppose this could be a misidentified bird, but I don't know the
circumstances, and the fact that it was recorded in Alberta doesn't
automatically outrule Blue Grouse. (It could be an outright error­I'm quite
certain one of the Spotted Towhee songs is actually a Bewick's Wren.)

Maybe some Spruce Grouse booms are so low as to actually be inaudible to the
human ear. The same could be suggested for interior Blue Grouse. I have
actually watched one display from only 25 meters away and heard nothing,
even though the neck sacks were visibly pushing out air.

Good Birding,

Rich
---
Rich Hoyer
Tucson, Arizona

Field Leader for
WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
---


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Spruce Grouse booming
From: Bill or Sue Smith <birdsmiths(AT)hotmail.com>
Date: 7 Jul 2001 6:11pm

    In addition to the excerpts mention by Ron Pittaway, the following,
taken from Boag & Schroeder (1992, Birds of North America no. 5), may be of
interest.

    Short (1967, Am. Mus. Novit. no. 2289) published a revision of grouse
taxonomy in which (fide Boag & Schroeder) he united the monotypic genera
Falcipennis (then used only for the palearctic Siberian Grouse) and
Canachites (then used only for the nearctic Spruce incl. Franklin's Grouse)
with the nearctic Dendragapus (then used only for the nearctic Blue incl.
Sooty / Dusky Grouse).  This combination of genera (reportedly) was based
in part upon Short's belief that Spruce (and Siberian) Grouse possessed
inflatable cervical sacs like those employed by the Blue and certain other
American grouse to make the hollow sound often termed "booming."

    However, various morphologists and those most familiar with Spruce (and
Siberian) Grouse have been unable to find any evidence of such sacs (Boag &
Schroeder 1992).  In a later study of grouse DNA, Ellsworth et al. (1996,
Auk 113: 811-822) found that Blue Grouse is most closely related to the
prairie species that do, in fact, have such sacs and that do engage in a
booming display.  But, they found no DNA evidence for a close genetic
relationship between Spruce and Blue Grouse.  Consequently, the AOU, in the
7th ed. of their check-list, removed Spruce Grouse from Dendragapus and
placed it (along with the Siberian Grouse) separately in Falcipennis.

    Boag & Schroeder (1992) also mention a book published by Crawford
Greenewalt in 1968 that (reportedly) shows a sonogram of hooting supposedly
by Spruce Grouse.  This may be of the recording mentioned by Rich Hoyer.

    But, this notion was challenged by Hjorth (1970, Viltrevy 7: 183 ff),
and others.  Although Boag & Schroeder (1992) assert that no biologist
studying Spruce Grouse has ever heard them hoot, the idea that they do was
published in the Golden Guide (Robbins. et al. 1966) and also is mentioned
in most North American field guides since, including Sibley (2000).

    Perhaps this should be called a 'forest' legend?

Cheers,
------------------------------------------------------------
P William Smith
P.O. Box 1992
Ocean Shores, Washington 98569 USA
birdsmiths(AT)hotmail.com