ID-FRONTIERS for September 23-30, 2001

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Winter Wren   ian paulsen    Mon, 24 Sep 2001   3:40pm   Re: Winter Wren   Jerry Tangren    Mon, 24 Sep 2001   4:28pm   Lesser Black-backed Gull ?   Jean-Sébastien Rouss   Tue, 25 Sep 2001   2:14am   Re: Lesser Black-backed Gull ?   Norman D.van Swelm   Tue, 25 Sep 2001   1:45pm   Re: Winter Wren   Martin Collinson    Wed, 26 Sep 2001   2:19am   Re: Lesser Black-backed Gull ?   Robert H. Lewis   Wed, 26 Sep 2001   9:32am   Re: Lesser Black-backed Gull ?   Phil Pickering    Wed, 26 Sep 2001   10:22am   some precisions about my Lesser Black-backed Gull   Jean-Sébastien Rouss   Wed, 26 Sep 2001   1:00pm   some precisions about my Lesser Black-backed Gull   Jean-Sébastien Rouss   Wed, 26 Sep 2001   1:00pm   [Fwd: [fws-shorebirds] New Woodcock Species Reported in Philippines]   Mike Patterson    Wed, 26 Sep 2001   2:56pm   "white-bellied" martin   Michael Retter    Wed, 26 Sep 2001   9:19pm   Re: some precisions about my Lesser Black-backed Gull   Norman D.van Swelm   Thu, 27 Sep 2001   12:49pm   [SABN] Technical problems and the gull   Trevor Hardaker    Sat, 29 Sep 2001   2:19am   various Id-related images   Martin Reid    Sat, 29 Sep 2001   7:26pm   juvenile hybrid gulls food begging.   Bruce Mactavish    Sun, 30 Sep 2001   1:03am   Re: juvenile hybrid gulls food begging.   Phil Pickering    Sun, 30 Sep 2001   9:19am   Re: juvenile hybrid gulls food begging.   Norman D.van Swelm   Sun, 30 Sep 2001   2:55pm

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'. This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

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Subject: Winter Wren
From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US>
Date: 24 Sep 2001 3:40pm

HI ALL:
 I was wondering if anyone knows of any studies that shows Winter Wrens to
be territorial in winter? About this time of year it SEEMS to me that they
set up territories.

sincerely
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Is., WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way"


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Subject: Re: Winter Wren
From: Jerry Tangren <tangren(AT)WSU.EDU>
Date: 24 Sep 2001 4:28pm

>HI ALL:
>  I was wondering if anyone knows of any studies that shows Winter Wrens to
>be territorial in winter? About this time of year it SEEMS to me that they
>set up territories.
>
>sincerely
>Ian Paulsen
>Bainbridge Is., WA, USA
>ipaulsen(AT)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
>A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
>"Rallidae all the way"

--
On the wintering or breeding grounds? If breeding, many species,
don't exactly know about winter wren, use the less stressful period
of early fall to do a little territory building.

--Jerry <tangren(AT)wsu.edu>


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Subject: Lesser Black-backed Gull ?
From: Jean-Sébastien Rousseau-Piot <jsrp(AT)CARAMAIL.COM>
Date: 25 Sep 2001 2:14am

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I would like to have some comments about a Gull (probably
LBBG).
A photo is at

http://www.digi-sight.com/digital_notebooks/lbbg1.html

Thanks
Jean-S=E9bastien Rousseau-Piot
Belgium
for other bird pictures visit
http://www.digi-sight.com/digi-sight.html

_________________________________________________________
Le journal des abonn=E9s Caramail - http://www.carazine.com


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Subject: Re: Lesser Black-backed Gull ?
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 25 Sep 2001 1:45pm

Jean-Sébastien Rousseau-Piot asks:I would like to have some comments about a
Gull (probably
LBBG).
A photo is at

http://www.digi-sight.com/digital_notebooks/lbbg1.html

It is a juvenile Lesser Black-back mo(u)lting into 1st winter plumage.
Norman


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Subject: Re: Winter Wren
From: Martin Collinson <docmartin2mc(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 2001 2:19am

>From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US>
>Reply-To: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)LINKNET.KITSAP.LIB.WA.US>
>To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Winter Wren
>Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:38:08 -0700
>
>HI ALL:
>  I was wondering if anyone knows of any studies that shows Winter Wrens to
>be territorial in winter? About this time of year it SEEMS to me that they
>set up territories.

Hi Ian

It seems that way to me too.  Not a proper study, but I keep a close eye on
a population of Winter Wrens Trog trog trog/indigenus in a woodland in
south-east Scotland.  It is possible here to roughly map their territories
throughout the year, and although they are not banded, there is enough
individual variatino to be able to keep track of individuals much of the
time.  Territorial singing during the summer gives way to a period of
relative quiet in late July and early August, after which they start up
again and sing through the year.  I have also noticed occasional aggression
between neighbouring males during the winter.  Territory is fundamental to
breeding success - they don't sing for fun, and as the males I find here in
the winter can sometimes stay to breed in the same territory, it is easy to
see why they want to keep hold of their ground.

If your Trog trogs are migrating away to breed, then it is less obvious why
they need to sing, but if they are singing then they are certainly holding a
territory.  Winter survival for these guys is dependent on intimate
knowledge of a patch of ground, with associated undergrowth in which they
can find shelter and food.  Armstrong (1955. The Wren - New Naturalist
Monograph (Collins)) alludes to this, and suggests this as a reason for
winter territory.  Females seem to be oblivious of the territory boundaries
in winter.

Hope that helps
Martin

_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Lesser Black-backed Gull ?
From: "Robert H. Lewis" <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 26 Sep 2001 9:32am

on 9/25/01 4:14 AM, Jean-Sébastien Rousseau-Piot at jsrp(AT)CARAMAIL.COM wrote:

> I would like to have some comments about a Gull (probably
> LBBG).
> A photo is at
>
> http://www.digi-sight.com/digital_notebooks/lbbg1.html
>
> Thanks
> Jean-Sébastien Rousseau-Piot

  I agree with Norman van Swelm that the bird in the photo is a Lesser.  The
fact that the scapulars are not "checkered" or scalloped as on the second
photo is not significant.  There is much individual variation.

  BTW the date given is "2/9/2001" which I assume is the European style
notation and means September 2, not February 9?

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY
lewis(AT)bway.net


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Subject: Re: Lesser Black-backed Gull ?
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 2001 10:22am

I would add that it may be tough to judge what the final pattern will be
on a 2nd-generation scapular while it is still growing. The diffuse
appearance and blunt shape of the indicated feather suggest that it
might have a bit of growing to do yet.

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com

>> I would like to have some comments about a Gull (probably
>> LBBG).
>> A photo is at
>>
>> http://www.digi-sight.com/digital_notebooks/lbbg1.html
>>
>> Thanks
>> Jean-Sébastien Rousseau-Piot
>
>  I agree with Norman van Swelm that the bird in the photo is a Lesser.  The
>fact that the scapulars are not "checkered" or scalloped as on the second
>photo is not significant.  There is much individual variation.
>
>  BTW the date given is "2/9/2001" which I assume is the European style
>notation and means September 2, not February 9?
>
>Bob Lewis
>Sleepy Hollow NY
>lewis(AT)bway.net


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Subject: some precisions about my Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Jean-Sébastien Rousseau-Piot <jsrp(AT)CARAMAIL.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 2001 1:00pm

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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First, thanks for those who gave me some clues for the gull at

http://www.digi-sight.com/digital_notebooks/lbbg1.html

It has been photographed on 2 september as you assumed.

The idea that the 2nd generation scaps are not fully grown is interesting but if
 you extrapolate the pattern of
those feathers I doubt you will obtain the typical pattern of the second
generation scapular as on the
comparison bird.

Surely LBBG is HIGHLY variable but in this case the pattern of the 1st
generation scapulars is not the typical one
and the pattern of those few new scapulars is ALSO atypical. So a very atypical
bird.
I've already seen picture of LBBG with the same atypical pattern for 2nd
generation scapulars but alongside
with 2nd generation scapulars of the more common type.
As far as I remember, a caption for such a bird (but in a more advanced stage of
 moult - mid-winter) stated that
those grey scapulars could appear in some birds but later in the season,
suggesting that the first new scaps
were of the normal type. At least this bird proves the contrary.

Imagine now that the bird has renewed all its scapulars with that atypical
pattern... How strange could it looks
like then ?

Jean-S=E9bastien Rousseau-Piot
Belgium

http://www.digi-sight.com

_________________________________________________________
Le journal des abonn=E9s Caramail - http://www.carazine.com


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Subject: some precisions about my Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Jean-Sébastien Rousseau-Piot <jsrp(AT)CARAMAIL.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 2001 1:00pm

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

First, thanks for those who gave me some clues for the gull at

http://www.digi-sight.com/digital_notebooks/lbbg1.html

It has been photographed on 2 september as you assumed.

The idea that the 2nd generation scaps are not fully grown is interesting but if
 you extrapolate the pattern of
those feathers I doubt you will obtain the typical pattern of the second
generation scapular as on the
comparison bird.

Surely LBBG is HIGHLY variable but in this case the pattern of the 1st
generation scapulars is not the typical one
and the pattern of those few new scapulars is ALSO atypical. So a very atypical
bird.
I've already seen picture of LBBG with the same atypical pattern for 2nd
generation scapulars but alongside
with 2nd generation scapulars of the more common type.
As far as I remember, a caption for such a bird (but in a more advanced stage of
 moult - mid-winter) stated that
those grey scapulars could appear in some birds but later in the season,
suggesting that the first new scaps
were of the normal type. At least this bird proves the contrary.

Imagine now that the bird has renewed all its scapulars with that atypical
pattern... How strange could it looks
like then ?

Jean-S=E9bastien Rousseau-Piot
Belgium

http://www.digi-sight.com

______________________________________________________
Bo=EEte aux lettres - Caramail - http://www.caramail.com


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Subject: [Fwd: [fws-shorebirds] New Woodcock Species
         Reported in Philippines]
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 26 Sep 2001 2:56pm

Hilary_Chapman(AT)fws.gov wrote:
>
> ***************************************************************************
> Reply to this list by replying to fws-shorebirds.
> [Do not include cc's or bcc's.  These people are subscribed.]
> Alternatively, you can reply directly to the poster of this
> message by using his/her email address.
> ***************************************************************************
>
> FYI, interesting news about woodcock via waders-l.
> cheers,
> shireen in Baltimore
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:26:14 +0200
> To: WADERS-L(AT)UCT.AC.ZA
> From: Axel Braunlich <braunlich(AT)ipn.de>
> Subject: new species of woodcock
>
> Dear Waderologists,
>
> I would like to draw your attention to a publication containing the
> description of a wader species new to science:
>
> R. S. KENNEDY, T. H. FISHER, S. C. B. HARRAP, A. C. DIESMOS and A. S.
> MANAMTAM. 2001. A new species of woodcock from the Philippines and a
> re-evaluation of other Asian/Papuasian woodcock. Forktail 17: 1-12.
>
> The species was named Scolopax bukidnonensis, Bukidnon Woodcock.
>
> Forktail is the journal of the Oriental Bird Club (OBC). For more info
> see www.orientalbirdclub.org or contact mail(AT)orientalbirdclub.org.
>
> Axel Bräunlich
>
> *****************************
> Axel Braunlich
> Brusseler Str. 46
> 13353 Berlin, Germany
> tel.: +49 30 4536692
> Email: braunlich(AT)ipn.de
> *****************************
>
> **************************************************************************
> For information about this list (ex. topics, how to unsubscribe, commands,
> list owner), send email to listserv@www.fws.gov with 'help fws-shorebirds'
> (without the quotes) as the only text in the body of the message.
> ***************************************************************************

--
Mike Patterson               When I despair, I remember
Astoria, OR                   that all through history
celata(AT)pacifier.com           the way of truth and love have always won.
                             There have been tyrants, and murderers,
                              and for a time they can seem invincible,
                              but in the end they always fall.
                              Think of it...always.
                                                - Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html


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Subject: "white-bellied" martin
From: Michael Retter <mretter(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 2001 9:19pm

Hello all,

I've been doing some research this past month on a 'Progne' martin I
observed near Colfax in McLean County, Illinois on 19 August 2001.  I
obtained close looks for about 10 minutes at the bird.  Direct comparisons
were made with Barn, Cliff, Northern Rough-winged, and Tree Swallows.  A low
pressure system was making its way over the area, and winds were strong and
variable, shifting from NE to NW, with sporadic strong rain showers.  In
previous days, the wind was out of the S.

It was uniformly shining metallic indigo above, with a slightly brown-tinged
gray throat, breast, and flanks (throat slightly paler than breat).  The
bird was snow white from the lower breast to the undertail coverts, with no
streaking noticed on the white at all.  The tail was slightly to moderately
cleft--not as deeply-forked as in Purple Martin (Progne subis).

The big question I've been asking myself is this:  why wasn't this bird a
first- or second-year male 'subis'?  The lack of streaks would seem to rule
out 'subis.'  I am very grateful for the help of an expert at Chicago's
Field Museum of Natural History, who went through all the 'subis' specimens
there.  He reported back to me that
"all of [the young male 'subis'] show various degrees of belly streaking --
usually heavy streaking.  I don't find any specimens that have unmarked
white bellies, and I don't think that there are any that would look unmarked
in the field."

I obtained great looks at the underparts for long periods as the bird was
usually above eye level (at times, perhaps as close as 10 yards).  I saw not
the slightest indication of streaks; I was also shocked by the stark "pure
white" of the belly.  I've never seen these characteristics on 'subis.'
Also, the breast pattern was very cleanly patterned:  there were no
non-symmetrical smudgings or purple patches as one would expect on young
male 'subis.'

The pale forhead and collar shown by most (if not all) 'subis' were not
present.

The not-so-forked tail is supposedly also a mark against 'subis' (per Howell
and Webb), but I'd imagine a 1st year 'subis' would have shorter tail
feathers, reducing the "deepness" of the fork in the tail.  I find it hard
to beleive that the variation in tail-forking due to wear, molt, and age is
overshadowed by differences among the various species in Progne.  Therefore,
I mention this trait only as "supportive" evidence.

The bird did not vocalize.

So I ask again, could 'subis' ever approach the plumage of the bird I have
described?  That's the main question I post to the listserv.

After reading my description, perhaps many of you thought the same thing I
did when I saw the bird: "Male Gray-breasted Martin!" (P. chalybea)  When
viewing this bird, I had just returned from the Neotropics, so the species
was fresh in my mind.  Indeed, had I seen the bird in Venezuela, I would not
have given it a second thought.

But if one theorizes my bird was a male P. chalybea, then he must try to
eliminate females of Carribbean (dominicensis), Sinaloa (sinaloae), and
Cuban (cryptoleuca) Martins.  I don't even know where to start here.
Perhaps some of you who are wiser can contribute your thoughts.

For what it's worth, the Field Museum's 'chalybea' specimens were also
screened.  I was told that "most of our male Gray-breasted Martins also show
a little  streaking, at the interface of the gray breast and white belly.
This streaking is minimal compared to what one would find on most if not all
Purple Martins, but it's there (usually, anyway).  I doubt if this little
bit of streaking would show up in the field, however, at least under most
conditions."  At least it's possible that the bird I saw was a male
'chalybea' then?

In conclusion, I'm confused.

Michael L. P. Retter
Illinois Wesleyan University
Bloomington, McLean Co, IL, USA
mretter(AT)iwu.edu
http://www.iwu.edu/~mretter

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: some precisions about my Lesser Black-backed
         Gull
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 27 Sep 2001 12:49pm

Jean-Sébastien Rousseau-Piot wrote:
>Surely LBBG is HIGHLY variable but in this case the pattern of the 1st
generation scapulars is not the typical one
and the pattern of those few new scapulars is ALSO atypical. So a very
atypical bird.<

LBBG's in juvenile or 1st winter plumages are contrary to f.i. West European
Herring Gull L.a.argenteus not highly variable. The bird shown in your
picture is not atypical, it is just one of several types that exist. The
problem is that in y(our) part of the world fully developed 1st year mantles
are rarely seen as the birds move quickly to Iberia, W.and NW Africa where
they continue to develope their 1st winter plumage!
Norman


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Subject: [SABN] Technical problems and the gull
From: Trevor Hardaker <trevor(AT)DHK.CO.ZA>
Date: 29 Sep 2001 2:19am

Hi there,

The gremlins have been having a field day with us and we have been
experiencing a number of technical difficulties with our website as well as
our x(AT)zestforbirds.co.za email addresses in the last few days. If anyone has
tried to get through to us via these email addresses to discuss the possible
Heuglin's Gull in the eastern Cape or to want to book for a trip or for any
other reason, and we have not responded back to you within two days of your
email being sent, it probably means that we have never received your email
and it got lost somewhere in cyberspace!!! We do already know of a number of
email messages sent to us that have gone missing.

We are trying to resolve this problem as quickly as possible, but if there
are any of you out there that have been trying to get hold of us, please
forward your messages either to me at hardaker(AT)mweb.co.za or
trevor(AT)dhk.co.za or to John Graham at jmgraham(AT)iafrica.com. It's amazing how
much one relies on a computer and when something goes wrong, it can cause
real chaos...

Nevertheless, the messages on the gull that have managed to get through so
far have all pointed towards it almost certainly being a Heuglin's Gull. If
you agree (or have a different opinion), please let us know. The photos are
still available under "Recent Rarities" on our website at
www.zestforbirds.co.za

Sorry for any possible inconvenience that may have been caused due to our
technical problems and we look forward to hearing back from more of the gull
experts out there.

Kind Regards
Trevor
---------------------------------------------------------
Trevor Hardaker and John Graham
Cape Town, South Africa
ZEST for BIRDS
Website: http://www.zestforbirds.co.za
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
| To unsubscribe from sabirdnet, send email to
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Subject: various Id-related images
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 29 Sep 2001 7:26pm

Dear all,
I've recently added some new pages to my Misc. Index:
http://www.martinreid.com/miscindx.html
  - and I would appreciate hearing (preferably via ID-F) comments on the
birds therein, especially the swallows and pelican.  I apologise in advance
for the poor quality of some of the images - I need to bite the bullet and
get a digital camera...
In particular, can anyone tell me definitively if juvenile AND adult Cliff
Swallows delay their molt until reaching their winter quarters? how
"strong" is this timing? (i.e. are there any examples of some individuals
that molted on migration, or is such a thing undocumented for Cliff?) when
is the earliest normal onset of this molt, and does it typically start with
certain tracts of feathers?
Similarly, it says in Pyle et al that Cave juvs molt on their breeding
grounds, and David Sibley concurred with this in a commentary about the NY
Cave Swallow at Angus Wilson's site
(http://www.best.com/~petrel/CASW.NY.html).  What about adult Caves; do
they molt at the breeding areas? are adult or juv. Caves documented as
molting their contour feathers during migration?
The bottom line to all this is:- could a Petrochelidon swallow molting its
head/neck feathers in late August be a Cliff ( if so, what age?) - what
about in late September?
FYI, I have already polled some experienced birders about the unusual
petrochelidon swallow from August 28, 2001:- one went for a funny Cliff,
two went for a Cave, two thought it might be a hybrid, and two said "dunno"...
Many thanks for any help on this.
Regards,
Martin

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com  or  http://www.cyberramp.net/~upupa


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Subject: juvenile hybrid gulls food begging.
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 30 Sep 2001 1:03am

Does a juvenile gull begging for food from an adult gull confirm one of the
parents?

I was lived in Inuvik, Northwest Territories July 20 - Sept 24, 2001.
Inuvik is a small community 100 km east of the Yukon border and 75 km inland
from the Beaufort Sea.  The local dump attracts small numbers of gulls
(50-150 individuals per visit). Glaucous Gulls and Herring Gulls, and a few
Mew Gulls, were the only species.  Glaucous outnumbered the Herring roughly
five to one.  Most were adults with a very few sub adults.  5-10% of the
adults were clearly hybrid Glaucous x Herring.  Generally looking like a
Glaucous Gull with pale gray markings in the outer five primaries. A number
of Herring-like gulls with excessive white in the outer primaries may have
been hybrids as well.  Unlike Newfoundland Herring Gulls which show large
amounts of white in P10 and P9, the few Inuvik Herrings showing excessive
white mirrors in P10 and P9 also exhibited a wide area of black separating
the mirror from the gray tongues of both the inner and outer webs. What
appeared to be typical pure Inuvik Herring Gulls had large amounts of black
in P5 -P10 with a small mirror in P10 separated from the feather tip by a
thick black bar.  Some also had a small mirror on P9.

Small numbers of juvenile gulls starting appearing in late August.   The
juvenile gulls suggested that even more the 5-10% of the adults contained a
mixture of genes.  Typical juvenile Herring Gulls were easy to assign to
species.  Typical juvenile Glaucous Gulls were difficult to come by.  Most
juvenile gulls looked like hybrid Glaucous x Herring.  There was a wide
variations in the combos produced, but none were like typical hybrids in
eastern North America where they appear as Glaucous Gull-like with
contrasting darker brown outer primaries and tail band.  In Inuvik there was
hardly a typical individual.  Plumage characters ranged from Thayer's-like
to glaucoides Iceland Gull-like to dark billed, dirty brown plumaged
Glaucous Gull-like individuals. Most interestingly from the west coast
birders point of view were individuals that were close to juvenile
glaucoides Iceland Gull.  They probably would have gone unnoticed in a flock
of Iceland Gulls in eastern Canada. Generally they had heavier, more
coarsely marked scapulars. Markings in the primary tips more blurred. Less
distinct then pale Kumlien's, probably fades away to nothing with a little
wear. The head and bills were proportionately larger than average
glaucoides/kumlieni.  The primaries extension beyond tail was also similar
to Herring Gull, not long like typical glaucoides/kumlieni. However, these
were subtle differences enhanced by an attitude where I was looking for
reasons why these couldn't be Iceland Gulls.  One could be persuaded to lean
toward Iceland Gull if it was an isolated bird farther south and the
excitement factor was strong.  Especially when dull primary markings could
fade away leaving uniform pale feathers.  I saw one such bird beg for food
from an adult Glaucous Gull for about two minutes before receiving a large
chunk of regurgitated food that it eagerly swallowed.  Is this ultimate
proof of one of the parents???

The Thayer's-like juveniles came in variety of patterns.  Some with odd
broad buff borders to scapulars and thick barring in outer half of tertials.
Some were like pale Herring Gulls.  None had solidly black bills.  There was
brownish at the base of the bill blending in with a blackish outer two
thirds.  Juvenile Thayer's are noted as having black bills, especially
during the first months of life.  Also head, bill and wing tip proportions
were more Herring Gull-like.  I witnessed one such individual beg for food
from and adult Glaucous Gull for fifteen minutes before apparently receiving
a small morsel, if anything.  The juvenile stop begging and the adult flew
off to another part of the dump.  The two birds were not seen together in
the next 30 minutes. The juvenile continued to 'mew' but did not beg from
other adult gulls.  Does this mean the adult Glaucous Gull was the parent of
this juvenile???

It is interesting how different populations of Herring and Glaucous Gulls
produce different hybrid combinations.  Juvenile or first winter birds
identified as Herring x Glaucous hybrids in Europe have long intrigued me.
They look like heavily marked Iceland Gulls or exceedingly pale Herring
Gulls.  In Newfoundland such hybrids typically look very like Glaucous Gulls
except with distinctly darker brown primaries and tail band. Photos of
hybrids from eastern North American that I've seen also look this way.  Some
of the Inuvik hybrids were similar to European hybrids, but none were like
classic eastern North American birds.

The Inuvik Herring Gulls and Glaucous Gulls are different than Newfoundland
birds. The Herring Gulls are smaller bodied with proportionately small bills
and much larger area of black in outer six primaries.  The Glaucous Gulls
are distinctly smaller than eastern North American birds. They averaged only
slightly larger than the Herring Gulls with some individuals obviously
smaller than most of the Herrings.  A small number of adult Glaucous had
dark eyes!  Iris heavily speckled with dark flecks on brown background. At
any distance the eyes appeared black even in strong light.  One might
suggest these were sub adult birds. However they appeared fully adult and I
saw this feature enough times to suggest it was more than abnormally late
changing iris colour of sub adults.  A number of adult Herring Gulls also
had darkish eyes.

Inuvik is at the northern limit of Herring Gull breeding range in this part
of North America.   Nearly all of the large gulls breeding between Inuvik
and the Beaufort Sea coast, 75 km to the north, are Glaucous Gulls. Herrings
were in the more treed areas around Inuvik and southward.  It appears there
has been a long tradition of interbreeding in this area with all manner of
back crossing.  The end product is a wide variety of plumages. Some of which
could cause identification problems in the south.

Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: juvenile hybrid gulls food begging.
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 30 Sep 2001 9:19am

Thanks to Bruce for the interesting report.

I can't answer his main question about begging. However, I've noticed
that a few juvenile Western Gulls on the Oregon coast in a matter of days
learn to do their typical submissive-looking braying begging behavior.....
at humans (where gulls are fed). I would wonder if at some point, at least
with some individuals, the behavior might transfer from adult/chick bond
to useful for hounding any convenient adult.

Inuvik is a long ways from Glaucous-winged breeding range, but the
breeding ranges of both Herring and Glaucous connect continuously to
Glaucous-winged over that distance, and probably have for a long, long
time. In fact, it may be that their ranges were more restricted and/or more
overlapping during the end of the last ice age, and expanded apart
afterwards (pure speculation, sorry). In any case, I would wonder if a
dark iris on a Glaucous in particular wouldn't be a sign of introgression
with Glaucous-winged, either current or ancestral, even in this location.

Could a dark iris also simply be due to a genetic deficiency in a
Herring x Glaucous? Western x Glaucous-winged hybrids seem
quite prone to genetic anomalies outside the range of either parent.
As an example, I see 1 or 2 juvenile Western x GW almost annually
that lack any dark pigmentation in the bill. Also, some adults or
near-adults have heads so densely marked that the hood appears
darker than any pure basic-plumage Glaucous-winged. It might be
a good thing to keep in mind that a hybrid or backcross of any two
species might not necessarily have to only display features that are
intermediate between the two.

Not to question Bruce's conclusion that the birds he was seeing were
probably hybrids, as he is familiar with and notes structural differences
between his birds and Thayer's/Iceland - but I have noticed that
some juvenile Thayer's do show a dark brown bill-base with a black
tip, rather than a truly all-black bill, at least by late October. This is
often only apparent with a close look, though, and the bills of these
birds do look black at a distance.

Don't know if they occur, but I would actually look for Thayer's in fall
in that area. Inuvik doesn't look to be that far off a line between the
northern part of Thayer's breeding range, and their main wintering
area on the Alaska/B.C. coast.

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:18 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] juvenile hybrid gulls food begging.

>Does a juvenile gull begging for food from an adult gull confirm one of the
>parents?


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: juvenile hybrid gulls food begging.
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 30 Sep 2001 2:55pm

>'Does a juvenile gull begging for food from an adult gull confirm one of
the
>parents?'asks Bruce Mactavish!

In large colonies such as the ones we have here in the Port of Rotterdam the
incoming parent with food will, by the time the gulls have fledglings, lure
them to a quiet place and will despite intense begging try to postpone
regurgitating until it is convinced there are no interested bystanders
nearby. However, sometimes they fail and become surrounded by a gang of up
to ten young, then they may panic, throw up and leave the scene as quickly
as possible. In that case much of the food goes to strange young.
I have seen a second year Herring Gull beg so ferociously while it went from
adult to adult outside the breeding season that in the end one of the adults
threw up!
The proof may not be in the begging but rather in the adult that singles out
a young!
Knowing you Bruce, I bet you made some great pictures. Can you spare a few
for Martin Reid's site (if he agrees that is), you really raised
expectations!
Norman