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ID-FRONTIERS for June 1-8, 2002
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Re: "Alaskan" Blackpolls | Barb Beck | Sat, 1 Jun 2002 | 7:42am |
| Possible Kelp Gull in Florida | Kurt Radamaker | Sun, 2 Jun 2002 | 2:27pm |
| Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida | Peter Adriaens | Mon, 3 Jun 2002 | 1:30am |
| Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida | Dick Newell | Mon, 3 Jun 2002 | 1:46am |
| Re: Solitary Vireo | Martin Reid | Mon, 3 Jun 2002 | 5:45am |
| California Gull races | Phil Pickering | Mon, 3 Jun 2002 | 4:34pm |
| Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida | Laurent Raty | Tue, 4 Jun 2002 | 1:29am |
| Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida | Dick Newell | Tue, 4 Jun 2002 | 2:42am |
| Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida | Robert H. Lewis | Tue, 4 Jun 2002 | 7:14am |
| Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida | Martin Reid | Wed, 5 Jun 2002 | 6:19am |
| Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida | Robert H. Lewis | Wed, 5 Jun 2002 | 6:52am |
| Re: Gull with yellow legs in the Netherlands | B. Aarts | Thu, 6 Jun 2002 | 2:15am |
| Re: Gull with yellow legs in the Netherlands | Dick Newell | Thu, 6 Jun 2002 | 11:16am |
| Great Snipe in flight photos from Spain | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricar | Thu, 6 Jun 2002 | 2:39pm |
| Re: Gull with yellow legs in the Netherlands | Laurent Raty | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 3:30am |
| St. Paul Island pipit | Jim Hengeveld | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 12:12pm |
| Re: A juvenile Larus in March ? | Alvaro Jaramillo | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 12:49pm |
| Re: St. Paul Island pipit | Dick Newell | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 12:59pm |
| Re: St. Paul Island pipit | Alvaro Jaramillo | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 1:13pm |
| Re: St. Paul Island pipit | Martin Reid | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 1:18pm |
| Re: St. Paul Island pipit | Angus Wilson | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 1:44pm |
| St. Paul Island pipit | Jim Hengeveld | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 2:10pm |
| Re: St. Paul Island pipit | Dick Newell | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 2:32pm |
| mystery Lark | ian paulsen | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 4:34pm |
| St.Paul lark | Julian Hough | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 7:10pm |
| pipits/larks | Jim Hengeveld | Fri, 7 Jun 2002 | 7:22pm |
| RFI: extralimital Elegant Tern reports | Bill Pranty | Sat, 8 Jun 2002 | 9:44am |
| mystery lark again | ian paulsen | Sat, 8 Jun 2002 | 10:40am |
| Re: mystery lark again | Joseph Morlan | Sat, 8 Jun 2002 | 1:35pm |
| Plumage of immature male Vermilion Flycatcher | Alan Wormington | Sat, 8 Jun 2002 | 1:51pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: "Alaskan" Blackpolls
From: Barb Beck <barb(AT)BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM>
Date: 1 Jun 2002 7:42am
Hi,
I have cc's this to the naturerecordist mailing list to see if people like
Kevin Colvar, Lang Elliott, and John Neville have any comments.
I hear a whole range of vocalizations for Blackpoll Warblers here in
Alberta, Canada. They vary quite a bit in pitch and speed of delivery.
Some sound like Kevin Colvars bird from Alaska, some sound like the slower
bird on Lang Elliotts Stokes Eastern Guide. They also vary some in pitch -
some birds singing considerably higher than others. The first time I
encountered the fast song I did not know what it was because I had learned
the slower song from an old LP. It sounded like an insect and not a bird to
me.
I only have about 5 Blackpoll recordings dug out of the mass of 90 tapes we
have recorded. Checked Kevin's recording against one of mine and my fastest
is only about 30 percent slower. I have heard the very fast songs in the
Swan Hills (under the B in the word Alberta on the map in the back of
Sibley) and in Cottonwood Slough at Jasper National Park (about at the O in
Rocky Mountains on the same map) which were during breeding season for sure
(second to third week in June). I have heard fast and slow vocalizations
in early June at Cold Lake (near the Saskatchewan border (about at the R in
Great Plains on Sibleys map) and at Sir Winston Churchill Park ( about at
the end of the word Alberta in the Sibley map) I am the most familiar with
them in the Swan Hills where I hear them each year when there to do a BBS
route. I cannot say which I hear the most but certainly both.
Unfortunately I am usually busy doing breeding bird surveys and butterfly
counts on the prairies and the western half of the province during the last
part of June so do not have records of the songs in the eastern part of the
province for sure of breeding birds.
Borror and Gunn have 5 recordings which vary in speed from 5 to 14
"chips"/second. Kevin Colvars is about 30, the five I have pulled out vary
from 6 to 21. The recordings on Lang Elliotts Disk vary from 5 - 9.
Borror and Gunn state that the pitch can be as high as 12 Hz and as low as
6.5 Hz. The faster songs seem to me to be higher pitched than the slower
ones but that just may be an artefact of the samples I have.
As far as I know do not have more than one subspecies of Blackpoll warbler.
I have always assumed that it was just normal variation in the song. There
are a lot more warblers who have more varied songs than this guy but guess I
should start noting more carefully what I hear
Barb Beck
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu]On Behalf Of Evan Obercian
Sent: May 28, 2002 11:24 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] "Alaskan" Blackpolls
IDF,
In Alaska last spring I was struck by the rapidity of the song of Blackpolls
there. Conventional wisdom seems to hold that this song is heard only by
BLPWs in Alaska. As I was hearing it sung by birds seemingly on migration
(by habitat) in Anchorage, I thought it rather odd that this song is given
ONLY in Alaska, because I don't often hear warblers giving alternate songs
before they are on territory (but sometimes I do). If migrants in Alaska
give this song, why not migrants elsewhere bound for Alaska? Well, this
spring I have twice heard the "Alaskan" song type from migrant BLPWs in New
Jersey. That not only contradicts the rumors I've heard previously (that
this song is only given in Alaska) but also raises the question whether or
not I can assume these birds are bound for Alaska. Has anyone heard this
song outside of Alaska, either by migrants or by breeders?
I have not followed the vireo thread too closely. My only comment is that
the frequency-modulated BHVIs in the East that David Sibley refers to could
be at least partly the product of Yellow-throated Vireo influence. I have
occassionaly heard BHVI singing very YTVI-like song phrases and vice-versa.
regards,
Evan Obercian
NJ
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida
From: Kurt Radamaker <javaswift(AT)javaswift.com>
Date: 2 Jun 2002 2:27pm
A Possible Kelp Gull photographed in Florida.
http://www.nebirdsplus.com./kelp_gull.htm
Previous comments posted to the FloridaBirds-L listerv and can be viewed at
the archive
http://www.lists.ufl.edu./archives/floridabirds-l.html
Any educated comments on the photos and the finer points of identification
would be appreciated.
Kurt Radamaker
Orlando FL
kurtrad(AT)bellsouth.net
http://www.javaswift.com/floridabirds
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)DUTCHBIRDING.NL>
Date: 3 Jun 2002 1:30am
Hello,
while this bird certainly shows some nice features, suggesting Kelp Gull,
more information would be welcome on the following two points:
1. Moult: The primaries are worn, and they do not seem to be actively
moulting - at least not in the photographs. This corresponds to the moult
cycle of northern hemisphere gulls - not Kelp Gull, in which typically
some new (fresh) primaries should be visible beyond the tertials in March.
Of course, any Kelp Gull that has spent some consecutive years in the
northern hemisphere, may adopt the 'local' moult strategy.
2. Primary pattern: There seems to be a large, complete white mirror on
the underside of the outermost primary (P10), merging with the white
primary tip. In addition, the black markings on P6 and P5 appear
incomplete (--> interrupted). This pattern actually suggests Great
Black-backed Gull.
Without a good explanation for the above points, I would not exclude Great
Black-backed Gull.
Best regards,
Peter Adriaens
Belgium
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)MACUNLIMITED.NET>
Date: 3 Jun 2002 1:46am
Re: http://www.nebirdsplus.com./kelp_gull.htm
To get this bird accepted as a Kelp Gull, is not the thing to eliminate
Greater Black-backed Gull? This does not seem to be mentioned explicitly in
any of the comments on
http://www.lists.ufl.edu./archives/floridabirds-l.html .
First, I don't think this bird is a full adult, there is a brown wash to the
lower scapulars (see 1st and 2nd pictures) - so probably 4CY.
Things that I see in the pictures, that might help differentiate Kelp from
GBBG include:
1. The legs look more pink than yellow/grey to me - so more likely GBBG
2. A dark iris (only the South African form of Kelp, vetula, is said to have
a dark iris) - so this more supports GBBG
3. A red eye-ring - OK both ways
4. A dumpy shape with shortish wings - Kelp looks more attenuated and
slimmer to me
5. A very stout bill - could be OK for Kelp, but more typical of GBBG
6. A wing tip pattern which all white tip to P10 and a sub-terminal mirror
on P9 - this is certainly OK for GBBG, (but unusual for Kelp? - not sure of
my facts here).
7. A very dark grey back - maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but Kelp is
usually really black - not a point to get hung up on.
8. Broad white tertial fringes - better for Kelp than GBBG.
9. White skirt (secondary tips below greater coverts) - very typical of
Kelp, but not unheard of in GBBG.
10. Size larger than adjacent 2CY American Herring Gull - could fit both.
11. Apparently short legs, maybe effect of puffed out belly feathers,
anyway, not sure it tells us anything.
Hope this helps
Dick (Cambridge, UK)
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Solitary Vireo
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 3 Jun 2002 5:45am
Dear Matt and all,
While agreeing with Matt's cautious approach to this complex, I would like
to ask if, in particular circumstances, there might be other ways to feel
comfortable with tweener birds:
1) on a FALL bird suspected of being CAVI (out of range), if the tail
detail was seen/ documented precisely, is there any "maximum" amount of
white edging below which we could feel good that the bird was indeed a CAVI
(assuming there were no contra-indications elsewhere in the plumage) -
? and vice versa, for a FALL suspected BHVI in the west, is there a
"minimum amount of white tail edging above which we could call it a BHVI
(again assuming no problems elsewhere) - ? Given that these feathers are
very fresh, I am hoping that those who have examined lots of birds in the
field and in collections may be able to establish a benchmark, but perhaps
there is TOTAL overlap on this feature?
2) on a Spring bird suspected of being a CAVI (out of range), if it was
seen/documented to have an obvious dusky band across the chest, is this a
strong enough feature to call it a CAVI (with no other contra-indications)
- ? given that the feathers are very worn by this time, can any BHVI in
Spring have a dusky chest band?
I know that great caution is needed in general, but maybe there are
specific situations where a bird seen to have a key feature beyond the
extreme for the common form, can be identified.
So, in summary:
Is there any fresh tail pattern that reasonably excludes CAVI, or one that
reasonably excludes BHVI?
Is there any worn breast/chest pattern that reasonably excludes BHVI (by
its very nature, this cannot work in reverse) ?
Regards,
Martin
At 5/31/2002 10:30 PM -0400, you wrote:
>I responded to Jim Barton's question but unintentionally did not respond to
>the list. So, if you followed this far, here is what I wrote with a little
>elaboration:
>
>I think the dingy green things in the east are the only safe Cassin's to
>claim. The tweener Cassin's might be approached by a 1st spring (second
>calendar year) BHVI. A bold CAVI is real trouble. This gets dicey. I just
>looked at photos of a hand held bird (from NY) that caused me fits. It is a
>tweener and one has to assess how the photos duplicate what is seen in life.
>Continuing that notion I have a fresh Cassin's I photographed in east Kern in
>early Sep (before most BHVI are moving that far south) that looks far bolder
>in pics than it did in life. Everyone has to decide their own litmus barriers
>on these tweeners; my capacity to leave them unidentified is rather broad.
>But, I would have no hesitation calling an all green Solitary a Cassin's.
>I do not have a clue what % of vagrants will be identifiable. I can tell you
>I have seen a dozen that I have felt were vagrants but would not call them as
>they were in the overlap zone. I recall Jon Dunn and I watching a suspected
>Blue-headed in CA one fall and just musing that we wouldn't think twice about
>the bird if we were back east, but it was too risky to call it a BHVI out in
>CA. The same thing happens with PLVI vs CAVI in CA where PLVI might be
>unseasonal but not a vagrant. Some get left alone.
>This is such a bizarre problem. I don't use the word hopeless as I find it
>rather amusing. But, I do feel many birders are not prepared to walk from
>identifications in this complex. The overlap in plumage and song is amazing.
>Enjoy these Solitary things even if you don't get to know them on a first
>name basis.
>
>Matt Heindel
>San Antonio TX
Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: California Gull races
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 3 Jun 2002 4:34pm
For gull enthusiasts, here are a couple images from the Oregon
Coast featuring side-by-side albertaensis and californicus (6/3/02).
These are video captures, so the resolution is pretty crummy. I
hadn't seen much in the way of comparison photos on the internet,
so thought these might be worth posting anyway -
2nd calendar-years, good mantle shade comparison -
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/cal05.jpg
2nd c-y albertaensis, and (probably) 3nd c-y calfornicus -
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/cal02.jpg
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/cal03.jpg
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/cal04.jpg
Beyond male/female differences, and in addition to the slight diff. in
mantle shade, most noticeable avg differences I saw today in extremes
were longer, thicker legs, thicker bill, thicker neck, and substantially
greater body bulk in albertaensis, more rounded crown and steeper
forehead, and longer primary extension beyond the tail in californicus.
Both "races" are annual migrants along the west coast, and there
often appears to be a near-continuous cline in features between
them. Today, however, every bird I studied in a mixed flock of
immatures (30+ birds) seemed to be obviously one or the other
for whatever reason.
Cheers,
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida
From: Laurent Raty <l_raty(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 4 Jun 2002 1:29am
Hi all,
Dick wrote:
> 10. Size larger than adjacent 2CY American Herring Gull - could fit both.
I know the feeling we get about Kelp Gull is that of a large bird but... is
that really correct?
A few measurements I have at hand:
- NG Field Guide 3rd Ed: L 58cm, W 135cm for Kelp, vs. L 64cm, W 147cm for
Herring; ie, (American?) Herring averages 10% larger than Kelp.
- HBW (Del Hoyo): L 54-65cm, W 128-142 for Kelp, vs. L 55-67cm, W 135-145cm
for Herring; difference is marginal here, but Herring is still slightly
larger, despite these values are supposed to encompass all races of both
species. Given smithsonianus is at the larger end of the variation for
Herring and dominicanus at the smaller end for Kelp (ie, smaller than
vetula), ending up with dominicanus very distinctly larger than
smithsonianus seems quite illogical.
See also the Galveston TX Kelp, in direct comparison with American Herring
Gulls (second pic):
http://www.martinreid.com/kegup11.html
Kelp looks large, but direct comparison with other large gulls is not so
frequently available and its structure could be as much responsible of this
feeling as its actual size. If this is correct, the Florida bird's size
could well point to a GBBG too (though, of course, there's still the
possibility of a very large Kelp, compared to a smallish female smith).
The primary pattern of this bird is perfect for GBBG, and something I have
never seen on any Kelp (but I don't have experience with all Kelp Gull
populations).
One recent paper (that I haven't read, so I can't comment it accurately,
unfortunately) could be of interest for this issue:
JIGUET F. (2002) : Taxonomy of the Kelp Gull Larus dominicanus Lichtenstein
inferred from biometrics and wing plumage pattern, including two previously
undescribed subspecies. Bull. Brit. Orn. Cl., 122 (1) : 50-71.
Online abstract: http://www.boc-online.org/bull_122.htm
(Do *not* click on the paper title - just scroll down.)
The author proposes to treat Kelp as including "five different subspecies,
with no two occurring in sympatry and all of them appearing to be
reproductively isolated from each other". (BTW, isn't this precisely the
definition of a good species for many?...) Given that a good part of this
paper seems to deal with variability in wing tip pattern, within and among
taxa, it is probably essential reading to anyone wishing to interpret this
variability.
All the best,
Laurent
Laurent Raty
l_raty(AT)hotmail.com
Brussels, Belgium
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)MACUNLIMITED.NET>
Date: 4 Jun 2002 2:42am
On 4/6/02 9:27 AM, "Laurent Raty" <l_raty(AT)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> I know the feeling we get about Kelp Gull is that of a large bird but... is
> that really correct?
>
Thank you for raising this Laurent - I hadn't looked it up, only going on my
own subjective impressions. I have seen many Kelp Gulls, and in Senegal,
when they fly by (along with LBBG's) they seem to look big. Comparing
measurements of Kelp in Hanzab (not all races I believe) with argenteus and
argentatus in BWP also shows that Kelp on average is smaller.
With this in addition, I think it will be difficult to prove that the
Captiva gull is not a GBBG.
Dick Newell
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida
From: "Robert H. Lewis" <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 4 Jun 2002 7:14am
on 6/2/02 5:33 PM, Kurt Radamaker at javaswift(AT)javaswift.com wrote:
> A Possible Kelp Gull photographed in Florida.
>
> http://www.nebirdsplus.com./kelp_gull.htm
Hello,
A few quick comments:
(1) the leg color looks more like GBBG than Kelp.
(2) the bird seems to be larger and bulkier than most Kelps.
(3) the primary pattern doesn't fit either GBBG or Kelp. The GBBGs I am
familiar with have large all-white tips to p10, not this bird's small tip,
followed by a black band on the outer 3/4 of the feather. Of course there
are the usual disclaimers about variation, etc. The Kelps that I know about
(which is not that much) don't have any where near this much white on the
tip, especially on the inner web.
(4) There are photos on my web page of the Maryland bird next to a Herring
(it's smaller) and photos of recent Caribbean Kelps.
(5) Could this be a back cross with some of those hybrids in Louisiana?
Regards,
Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY
http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/gulls.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 5 Jun 2002 6:19am
Dear All,
I was consulted about this bird by a FL birder prior to it being posted to
ID-F, and responded that it was a good fit for Kelp. I was a little
careless, and need to step back somewhat from the statement, thanks to the
comments of Laurent and Dick.
One reference not yet mentioned is:
JIGUET, JARAMILLO, and SINCLAIR; Identification of Kelp Gull BIRDING WORLD
V14, N0.3, p112-125 (preceded by article on 1st Western Palearctic record
of Kelp from Mauritania.)
I agree that the primary pattern looks to be much closer to the norm for
GBBG than that for the populations of Kelp that we presume are the source
for Northern Atlantic birds - BUT Kelps with wing patterns almost identical
to the Florida bird can be found in the southern Indian Ocean ( e.g. plate
36 in the above article). To what extent can Kelps with similar primary
patterns occur in the African and South American populations?
As to leg color, a comparison of the leg color of the adult RBGUs in these
photos reveals that they have one yellow leg and one pinkish-flesh-toned
leg; do we say that they cannot be RBGUs because of this? - no! we accept
that there is some color trickery going on. We should then also keep this
in mind when considering the target gull in the same images. I wonder if
the observer can tell us if he looked critically at the legs in the field,
and if he saw any hint of flesh tones? I do a great deal of image-scanning
from prints and slides, and can attest that bare-parts color is often
imbued with more red than in the originals or seen in real life.
Looking image 1j (put cursor over pic to see label) - the only image where
the eye is not in deep shadow - it is clear that the eye is not "dark", but
is dusky yellow (probably flecked dark) - this would be fine for a
reasonable proportion of South American Kelps.
Looking at image 1h, it seems that the mantle/scaps are fresh, while the
wing coverts are worn, BUT the drooping secondaries look very fresh (this
is born out in all other pics showing the tips of the secondaries - they
look thick, white, and unworn). This is a rather odd combination, more
indicative of a gull that is at least partially in an Austral molt cycle;
look at this page: http://www.martinreid.com/kegup06.html for an example
showing how in late Feb the secondaries are fresh, P-molt has reached P5,
while most of the lower wing coverts have only just been dropped - imagine
this bird a little earlier in the process, where the secondaries are still
very fresh, P-molt has only got to P2 or P3 (thus not visible on the pics
of the FL bird), and the worn lower wing coverts are still in place.... and
here http://www.martinreid.com/kegup08.html is a Chilean Kelp that in Late
Feb has not yet started to molt at all, thus showing that the FL gull is
within the overall range of Austral molt timing for a Kelp.
The tail looks to be very worn, and does not fit this scenario- but I know
from experience that the retrices can regularly be out-of-whack with the
rest of the molt, in gulls, so I regard it as a neutral feature.
The primaries look odd to me; somehow P10-8 seem a bit less worn than P7-5,
suggesting a slight suspension in the progress of the previous molt. Also,
P10 clearly extends beyond P9 by a small amount, and the apparent gap
between the tips of P8 and P9 is way too large for the "short-winged gulls"
- I'd really value an explanation of this!
In many of the pics, there is a discernable difference in the "blackness"
of the primaries and the fresh tertial/scaps feathers - but look at these
pics from Antarctica - http://www.martinreid.com/kegup13.html - and the
contrast in low, angled sun is just the same; also note the complete fresh
secondaries, despite P-molt being in the early stages - maybe this is
typical of Kelp?
All in all, a mixed bag of features, but this remains an interesting bird;
I don't think Kelp is ruled out, but GBBG seems to be a serious contender
that has to be addressed. While ANY gull could be a hybrid, I feel that
the combination of white tips to P10 and darker-than-average-for-Kelp eye
color are unexpected features of a southern American HERGxKelp hybrid.
I'd especially appreciate comments about the apparent differences in
freshness of the various feather tracts...
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible Kelp Gull in Florida
From: "Robert H. Lewis" <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 5 Jun 2002 6:52am
Hello all,
Last time I wrote:
> (3) the primary pattern doesn't fit either GBBG or Kelp. The GBBGs I am
> familiar with have large all-white tips to p10, not this bird's small tip,
> followed by a black band on the outer 3/4 of the feather.
Several people wrote me that I should look closely at the magnified
images, that the black I was talking about is on p9. They are right! So
the underside of p10 on the left wing was confusing me. It does have a
large, all-white mirror-tip. That's typical GBBG and very untypical Kelp.
As a result, I don't see any reason from these photos to doubt that the
bird is a GBBG.
Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY
http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/gulls.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Gull with yellow legs in the Netherlands
From: "B. Aarts" <baarts(AT)SCI.KUN.NL>
Date: 6 Jun 2002 2:15am
Hi all,
Pictures from another cachinnans-like argentatus Herring Gull with yellow
legs that was seen in the Netherlands are at:
http://members.tripod.com/vogelinfolimburg/pages/rs_zilvermeeuw1.htm
http://members.tripod.com/vogelinfolimburg/pages/rs_zilvermeeuw2.htm
http://members.tripod.com/vogelinfolimburg/pages/rs_zilvermeeuw3.htm
This gull was (color)ringed in Poland, and has been wintering in the
Netherlands for three years now. BTW: In Poland cachinnans, michahellis and
argentatus meet & interbreed...
Regards,
Bram Aarts
The Netherlands
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Gull with yellow legs in the Netherlands
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)MACUNLIMITED.NET>
Date: 6 Jun 2002 11:16am
Bram,
I believe we are getting a fair number of these mixed/intermediate birds
here in the UK, and obviously you are getting them in Holland. I also think
we are making some progress in identifying them. I have a small collection
of them here:
http://www.magikcircle.com/birds/image.asp?title_id=585
The only 2 ringed 2CY Caspian Gulls that I have seen were not quite right -
they were both ringed in the famous mixed colony at Kleinskochen
In May in Poland I found a pair of what looked like a pure Caspian Gull with
a mixed bird:
http://www.magikcircle.com/birds/image.asp?title_id=715
There were other birds around that looked like Herring Gulls, Caspian Gulls
and mixed gulls.
The famous Whipsnade Gull also looks like a mixture to me:
http://www.surfbirds.com/Rarities/ukstoppress-dec0201.html
It all fits in with what we know is going on in mixed colonies in Poland and
Eastern Germany, as well as this paper:
http://www.maik.rssi.ru/cgi-bin/search.pl?type=abstract&name=zooeng&number=1
&year=99&page=129
Given the numbers of these mixed birds that are about, identifying pure
Caspian Gulls needs critical examination of all features.
Dick
On 6/6/02 10:27 AM, "B. Aarts" <baarts(AT)SCI.KUN.NL> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Pictures from another cachinnans-like argentatus Herring Gull with yellow
> legs that was seen in the Netherlands are at:
>
> http://members.tripod.com/vogelinfolimburg/pages/rs_zilvermeeuw1.htm
> http://members.tripod.com/vogelinfolimburg/pages/rs_zilvermeeuw2.htm
> http://members.tripod.com/vogelinfolimburg/pages/rs_zilvermeeuw3.htm
>
> This gull was (color)ringed in Poland, and has been wintering in the
> Netherlands for three years now. BTW: In Poland cachinnans, michahellis and
> argentatus meet & interbreed...
>
> Regards,
>
> Bram Aarts
> The Netherlands
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Great Snipe in flight photos from Spain
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricard_Guti=E9rrez?= <GUTARB(AT)TERRA.ES>
Date: 6 Jun 2002 2:39pm
Hello
You can see a special page devoting our latest sighting of Great Snipe
(Llobregat delta, Barcelona, 22.5.2002) which includes three photos and two
downloadable descriptions in Spanish (those that have been submitted to the
CR/SEO). This could well be the 7th for Spain.
Besides, there is a brief analysis of the six accepted and 11 (!) rejected
records in this country
Unlike what it is thought by many birders, this is not a very difficult
species once you've clinched its unique jizz and seen (and photographed if
you're lucky) the most important characters to be recorded such as tail
shape or wing pattern. The three photos we feature are not superb shots but
are very lively showing what can be seen in the usually brief observations
you have of this species.
Hope you like it
Ricard Gutiérrez
CR/SEO
www.rarebirdspain.net
7.6.2002
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Gull with yellow legs in the Netherlands
From: Laurent Raty <l_raty(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 3:30am
Hi Dick and all,
Re:
http://www.maik.rssi.ru/cgi-bin/search.pl?type=abstract&name=zooeng&number=1
&year=99&page=129
Do you have more info about this study? These results were first presented
in 1998 at the 22nd International Ornithological Congress, Durban, South
Africa: at that time, a comment written by Lars Jonsson was sent to
EuroBirdNet. Unfortunately, it was before the EBN archive on the Finnish
LISTSERV so you won't find it there; it does exist online, in the archives
of the MeeuwNL Yahoogroup (where it was forwarded by Bram, BTW), but is only
accessible to members of this group and my experience is that not everybody
is in the position to easily gain access to this type of archive. I have
reproduced it below (it is written in the fashion of an open letter, so I
saw no problem in doing this; my apologies if this was wrong).
I've never seen the questions raised by Lars answered, so I can't say if
they were founded or not. I would be interested in any further comment.
Regards,
Laurent
_____________________________________________________________
Subject: EBN: About 'omissus' Herring gulls:
a comment from Lars Jonsson
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:11:57 +0300
From: Martin Helin <Martin.Helin@c...>
To: "'EuroBirdnet'" <ebn@o...>
I forward this comment from Lars Jonsson to EuroBirdnet.
Rgds,
Martin
Martin Helin
martin.helin@c...
_____________________________________________________________
About omissus,
A few intresting abstracts from the current 22nd International
Ornithological Congress in Durban have been put on the net. One that
especially caught my intrest was forwarded by Martin Collinson , in wich
Panov and Monzikov summarized their ongoing research about the large White
headed gulls in Russia. (It has the number 138: Interrelationships between
Lars argentatus and L cachinnans in eastern Europe). I look forward to read
the whole article if it will be published in English, or translated.
I do however get a bit confused from what I read and recommend anyone
interested in the subject to try to get hold of the full material rather
than incorporating the present abstract in their view of the taxonomy of
these gulls.
The statement was that "all morpological and behavioural characters studied,
change along the transect in a clinal mode". This may only mean that in the
White Sea there are only argentatus and in the Volga basin cachinnans
predominate. While I presume that birds from the Rybinsk reservoir are
mixture of both. The cline is most likely referring to the percentage of
birds having characteristics (or more simply being) cachinnans and
omissus/argentatus respectively (I prefer to call omissus something else)
I quote:
"Comparative DNA analysis by RAPD method shows introgression of HG genes
into the phenotypically pure omissus population of Rybinsk Reservoir and
cachinnans - like population of Nizhny Novgorod"
Introgression means insertion of genes from one species into the genepool of
another. Hybridisation with infertile offspring is of course insufficient
for such an introgression. I am convinced that in these newly established
colonies crossing between argentatus and cachinnans occur, but only at a
limited level. In order to say that introgression of argentatus have taken
place in the cachinnans like populations in Nishny Novgorod must mean as
follows; at least one bird wich are morphologicly, behavioristic and vocally
corresponding with the characteristic of cachinnans but when caught, sampled
and analyzed, showed characteristics in its DNA wich are only found in
argentatus. If in a sample of let say 20 birds 2 birds had a genetic
resemblance on a molecular level with the White Sea samples, it could just
as well point to the fact that 10% of the breeding birds are in fact
argentatus.
I did study some 200 large gulls outside Moscow in September last year.
Except for a few heuglini the others where 50% cachinnans and 50%
argentatus. Looking through the vast majority of birds I found only a few,
let's say less than 5% (including all age classes and distances) that was
difficult to clearly asign to one or the other form.
Also surprising is that "The point of view that omissus is a subspecies of
SHG (cachinnans) is suggested". This should be compared with the result of
Mierauskas et al (1991), summarized as:
1) The Herring Gulls breeding in peatbogs in Lathvia (Teichu) show some
differences compared to the coastal breeding Herring Gulls (St. Petersburg)
in having a longer bill, longer wing, longer tarsus and middle toe
(charachters resembling cachinnans)
2) Studies of vocalisation and behaviour (and wingtip pattern) so far give
no substance to the theory that Baltic yellow-legged Herring Gulls are
cloosely related to cachinnans from the Aralo-Caspian area.
Their results must be said to support a treatment of cachinnans and
argentatus as seperate species and that the "omissus" are in fact not
related to cachinnans.
Still more and more evidence congregate that some part of the Baltic
population have another colonisation history than argentatus from the
Atlantic, that is, have been isolated from argentatus/argenteus of the
Atlantic coast for a long time. I will not carry on this discussion as, this
is only an abstract and I might have interpreted several things wrongly. The
text is duplicated her for a close reference to the above.
Keep on gull watching.
Lars Jonsson
____________________________________________________________
Panov, E.N. & Monzikov, D.G. 1998. Interrelationships between Larus
argentatus and L. cachinnans in Eastern Europe. In: Adams, N.J. & Slotow,
R.H. (eds) Proc. 22 Int. Ornithol. Congr.. Durban, University of Natal.
Ostrich 69: ZZZ
The large white-headed gull complex is an excellent model for study of bird
microevolution. In the course of long-term research of the taxonomic
structure of these gulls in Russia, the existence of gene flow between
Herring Gull L.argentatus (HG) and Yellow-legged Gull L. cachinnans (SHG)
was revealed. Five populations along the transect of ca. 1600 km long,
running from Barent's Sea coast of Cola Peninsula to the Nizhny Novgorod
region were studied in respect of external morphology, vocalisation, and DNA
features. The transect covers the extreme eastern part of HG range and areas
pioneered recently by gulls of omissus-type along the Volga Basin from SE.
All morphological and behavioural characters studied, change along the
transect in clinal mode. Populations of Barent's Sea and White Sea represent
typical HG, while in those inhabiting the Middle Volga Basin, characters of
SHG completely predominate. Populations of the Baltic region are
intermediate. Comparative DNA analysis by RAPD method shows introgression of
HG genes into the phenotypically pure omissus population of Rybinsk
Reservoir and cachinnans - like population of Nizhny Novgorod. The point of
view that omissus is a subspecies of SHG is suggested.
Key words: speciation, DNA, systematics, morphology, vocalisation
____________________________________________________________
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: St. Paul Island pipit
From: Jim Hengeveld <jhengeve(AT)INDIANA.EDU>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 12:12pm
Last week, my wife, Susan, and I were birding with friends on St.
Paul Island in Alaska. A pipit was seen that was initially
identified as a Red-throated Pipit. A group of about 10 people drove
out to southwest point on the island and eventually saw the bird. It
did not seem to me to be a Red-throated Pipit at the time and I still
haven't come across any images of RTPI that look like the bird that
we saw. Susan managed to get several low quality digital images of
the bird and she has posted those images to the web site below.
I have an opinion of what the bird was but I'd like to get some input
especially from some people who are familiar with Eurasian pipits.
It was a fairly large pipit, judging from its interactions with a
Lapland Longspur at which time it appeared to be 2-3 cm. larger than
the longspur. Other photos were taken of the bird by one other
person and hopefully some of them will be of higher quality.
The bird can be seen at:
http://www.indiana.edu/~ornith/birds/pipit/pipit.html I would
appreciate any input you can provide on this bird.
Thanks.....Jim
--
____________________
James D. Hengeveld jhengeve(AT)indiana.edu
Department of Biology 812-855-5353
1001 East 3rd Street
Indiana University
Bloomington, IN 47405
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: A juvenile Larus in March ?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)ATTBI.COM>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 12:49pm
Birders:
I have been away doing tours and have not gotten back to this issue of
the gull which I stated was a juvenile in March. I have read the comments
by others and looked at the larger photos posted by Floyd and of course you
are all correct. This is NOT a juvenile bird, the primaries are indeed
worn. So my previous comments that this must be a Kelp based on plumage age
is incorrect. Thanks a lot for taking a close look and making me look
twice. That's the beauty of refutable hypotheses - the only way we can move
forward with some of these problem gulls.
cheers.
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
Biologist
San Francisco Bay Bird Observatory
P.O. Box 247
Alviso, CA 95002
(408)-946-6548
http://www.sfbbo.org/
chucao(AT)attbi.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: St. Paul Island pipit
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)MACUNLIMITED.NET>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 12:59pm
Jim,
Re: http://www.indiana.edu/~ornith/birds/pipit/pipit.html
I don't think you have a pipit at all - maybe some Asian equivalent of a
Short-toed Lark - except the size sounds way off. It certainly ain't no
Red-throated Pipit.
Dick
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: St. Paul Island pipit
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)ATTBI.COM>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 1:13pm
At 02:05 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Jim Hengeveld wrote:
>Last week, my wife, Susan, and I were birding with friends on St.
>Paul Island in Alaska. A pipit was seen that was initially
>identified as a Red-throated Pipit. A group of about 10 people drove
>out to southwest point on the island and eventually saw the bird. It
>did not seem to me to be a Red-throated Pipit at the time and I still
>haven't come across any images of RTPI that look like the bird that
>we saw. Susan managed to get several low quality digital images of
>the bird and she has posted those images to the web site below.
>
Jim et al.
That bird doesn't look much like a Red-throated Pipit in summer, in fact
it doesn't look like a pipit. Its too chunky, short-tailed, and appears to
have noticeable primaries extending past the tertials. Pipits have very big
and long tertials which hide most or all of the primaries. This bird looks
like a Sky Lark to me, but I am far from being an expert on the subject.
The face pattern and facial structure looks right for Sky Lark as well. I
will be out in St. Paul in a week, hope some of the strays are still coming
through then.
regards
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
Biologist
San Francisco Bay Bird Observatory
P.O. Box 247
Alviso, CA 95002
(408)-946-6548
http://www.sfbbo.org/
chucao(AT)attbi.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: St. Paul Island pipit
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 1:18pm
Dear Jim and all,
This is a lark, not a pipit. note the short tail, vertical line below the
eye, heavily-streaked cap. I think it's a Skylark; the primary projection
looks to be very long for the British form (arvensis), but maybe its fine
for pekinensis? Oriental Skyark would have a less-marked face and much
shorter primary projection - plus the size comparison to Lap Longspur reads
about right for Skylark.
Let's hope the other person who photographed it got better pics.
Regards,
Martin
At 6/7/2002 02:05 PM -0500, you wrote:
>BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: St. Paul Island pipit
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)ENDEAVOR.MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 1:44pm
I agree with Dick Newell that this is almost certainly not a
Red-throated Pipit. For one thing, the flanks as virtually unmarked
which doesn't fit any plumage and the supercilium seems too broad and
pale. In this respect, Blyth's Pipit (Anthus godlewskii) might be a
better pipit candidate?
That said, the head patterning and bill length makes me think more of a
lark than a pipit. It might be worth reviewing photos of Oriental
Skylark (Alauda gulgula) and eastern subspecies of Eurasian Skylark (A.
arvensis)? The dark malar stripe and clustering of speckles where the
stripes meets the flank seems strong for Skylark but I have limited
experience with the asiatic forms and will happily bow to other
opinions.
Interesting!
Angus Wilson
New York
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: St. Paul Island pipit
From: Jim Hengeveld <jhengeve(AT)INDIANA.EDU>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 2:10pm
Thank you all for your responses to my message about the St. Paul I.
"pipit." As many of you have kindly indicated, the bird is almost
certainly a Sky Lark.
...good lesson on how preconceptions can influence the objectivity of
our evaluations! I guess I should further embarrass myself and admit
that I was trying to turn it into a Richard's or Blyth's Pipit.
.....Jim
--
____________________
James D. Hengeveld jhengeve(AT)indiana.edu
Department of Biology 812-855-5353
1001 East 3rd Street
Indiana University
Bloomington, IN 47405
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: St. Paul Island pipit
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)MACUNLIMITED.NET>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 2:32pm
Re: http://www.indiana.edu/~ornith/birds/pipit/pipit.html
I just took a look in the Japanese Photoguide (sorry there is no English
title) and the photos of Skylark do show what could be configured as a dark
neck mark and very clean underparts. This is quite unlike the Skylarks
breeding in the field at the bottom of my garden. Together with its size and
shape (Eastern) Skylark is a good candidate.
Dick (Cambridge, UK)
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: mystery Lark
From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)KRL.ORG>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 4:34pm
HI:
Someone off-list wondered about Wood Lark (Lullula arborea)? Does that
species make it to eastern Asia?
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)krl.org
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: St.Paul lark
From: Julian Hough <Jrhough1(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 7:10pm
The bird appears to be a Skylark, and although Oriental should be considered,
there are no features which seem to suggest this Asian species. The first
photo did remind me superficially of Woodlark, but the lack of strong
superciliums joining at the nape and a contrasting white/dark primary covert
patch are features not apparent on the St.Paul bird.
Julian Hough,
CT, USA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: pipits/larks
From: Jim Hengeveld <jhengeve(AT)INDIANA.EDU>
Date: 7 Jun 2002 7:22pm
I greatly appreciate all of the messages I have received concerning
the St. Paul I. "pipit." The primary extension evident on the bird,
as well as other features, eliminates pipits and indicates a lark.
I have another question about pipits and larks in general and thought
I'd take advantage of this group's expertise. A couple of the pics
of the SPI Sky Lark show long, prominent primary coverts. Woodlark
also shows long, showy primary coverts that are quite prominent on
the folded wing. Is this a feature of larks in general as opposed to
pipits? This feature does not seem to be illustrated consistently
among larks and pipits in the references that I've looked at.
....Jim
--
____________________
James D. Hengeveld jhengeve(AT)indiana.edu
Department of Biology 812-855-5353
1001 East 3rd Street
Indiana University
Bloomington, IN 47405
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RFI: extralimital Elegant Tern reports
From: Bill Pranty <billpranty(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 8 Jun 2002 9:44am
Dear ID Frontiers,
My co-authors and I are writing a paper on the recent breeding of an
apparently pure Elegant Tern with a Sandwich Tern in Florida (the mate and
chick were videotaped yesterday, 7 Jun 2002).
We are intending for the paper to be submitted to "North American Birds,"
and Ned Brinkley agrees that it would be a good idea to discuss all
extralimital reports of Elegant Terns (i.e., those away from the Pacific
coast or Salton Sea).
To that end, I am requesting notice of, and details for, all Elegant Tern
observations OTHER THAN those mentioned in the BNA account, the recent
"Birding" article, or published in issues of "North American Birds" and its
predecessors.
Especially sought are more details on the breeding reports from France,
1974-1985 (Olsen and Larsson 1995 only briefly mention these events) and
reports from the Caribbean.
All assistance will be gratefully acknowledged.
Thank you.
Best regards,
Bill
Bill Pranty
Audubon of Florida
410 Ware Boulevard, Suite 702
Tampa, Florida 33619
813-623-6826
billpranty(AT)hotmail.com
Florida IBA Program: <http://www.audubon.org/bird/iba/florida>
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: mystery lark again
From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)KRL.ORG>
Date: 8 Jun 2002 10:40am
HI:
Someone else thought the lark could be one of the Asian Short-toed
Larks. Any ideas on this??
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)krl.org
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: mystery lark again
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 8 Jun 2002 1:35pm
On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:39:18 -0700, ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)KRL.ORG>
wrote:
> Someone else thought the lark could be one of the Asian Short-toed
>Larks. Any ideas on this??
They are much smaller than any longspur with a smaller, more
finch-like bill, less distinct face pattern, no primary projection and
less contrast on the upperparts and sides of the breast.
The closest one is the Lesser Short-toed Lark.
http://www.naturfotogalerie.de/vogel/12/sul01.htm
Harder to eliminate is the Oriental Skylark "Alauda gulgula" which is
resident in Central Asia, although one of the western subspecies is
migratory.
The status of the skylarks in Japan is controversial. They are
variously treated as a race of A. arvensis or A. gulgula and sometimes
as a separate species.
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044: mailto:jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
Fall Birding Classes start Sept 4: http://fog.ccsf.org/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee: http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Plumage of immature male Vermilion Flycatcher
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 8 Jun 2002 1:51pm
Can anyone give me some thoughts on what the MINIMUM amount of red
plumage is to be expected on a first-spring male Vermilion Flycatcher?
I have a detailed report on hand for an immature male that occurred here
at Point Pelee, Ontario, on May 7, 2002. It is described as having much
of the underparts (50 to 60%) with scattered red blotches on the sides
and belly. Also "slight" red streaking on the head. These are the only
specific mentions of red plumage, although "very dark" areas are
described for the head (mask) and rump, etc.
Please e-mail me privately,
Thanks,
Alan Wormington
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