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ID-FRONTIERS for July 14-20, 2002
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd) | ian paulsen | Sun, 14 Jul 2002 | 9:06pm |
| Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd) | Julian Hough | Mon, 15 Jul 2002 | 9:26am |
| article on Himantopus | Arne Lesterhuis | Mon, 15 Jul 2002 | 12:17pm |
| Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd) | Norman D.van Swelm | Mon, 15 Jul 2002 | 4:02pm |
| Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd) | KACastelein and DJLa | Mon, 15 Jul 2002 | 8:48pm |
| Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd) | Norman D.van Swelm | Tue, 16 Jul 2002 | 1:36am |
| Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd) | Tony Morris | Tue, 16 Jul 2002 | 1:37am |
| Age of Coos Bay Little Stint | Julian Hough | Tue, 16 Jul 2002 | 6:27am |
| Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd) | KACastelein and DJLa | Tue, 16 Jul 2002 | 6:29am |
| Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay | Mike Patterson | Tue, 16 Jul 2002 | 7:18am |
| Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay | Roland Asteling | Tue, 16 Jul 2002 | 8:34am |
| Re: Little Stint, OR, and size assessment in
peeps | Martin Reid | Tue, 16 Jul 2002 | 9:40am |
| Re: Little Stint, OR, and size assessment in
peeps | Keith Arnold | Tue, 16 Jul 2002 | 11:07am |
| Re: Little Stint, OR, and size assessment in
peeps | Mike Patterson | Tue, 16 Jul 2002 | 11:33am |
| Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten'svideo | Wayne C. Weber | Tue, 16 Jul 2002 | 2:02pm |
| White-morph Western Reef-Heron? | Floyd Hayes | Wed, 17 Jul 2002 | 11:02am |
| Dark-lored juvenile Snowy Egrets | Floyd Hayes | Wed, 17 Jul 2002 | 11:08am |
| Re: White-morph Western Reef-Heron? | Floyd Hayes | Fri, 19 Jul 2002 | 10:21am |
| Possible hybrid small gull in New York State | Andy Guthrie | Fri, 19 Jul 2002 | 7:37pm |
| Re: Possible hybrid small gull in New York State | Menotti Passarella | Fri, 19 Jul 2002 | 10:55pm |
| Re: Possible hybrid small gull in New York State | Jack Dozier | Fri, 19 Jul 2002 | 11:50pm |
| Re: Possible hybrid small gull in New York State | Andy Guthrie | Sat, 20 Jul 2002 | 8:10pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd)
From: ian paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)KRL.ORG>
Date: 14 Jul 2002 9:06pm
HI ALL:
Any comments on this id.?
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)krl.org
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way"
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 20:13:49 -0700
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
To: OBOL2 <obol(AT)lists.orst.edu>, tweeters <tweeters(AT)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave Lauten's video
Dave sent me his video captures of the LITTLE STINT he and
Kathy found yesterday. I enlarged, cropped and brightened
the images to ensure they'd fit on my website.
They can be found at:
http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/temp/laut_LIST.html
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
A child who becomes acquainted with the birds about him
hears every sound and puzzles out its meaning with a cleverness
that amazes those with ears who hear not.
-Neltje Blanchan
http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd)
From: Julian Hough <Jrhough1(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 15 Jul 2002 9:26am
The identification seems straightforward: the long legs, breast pattern and
scapular pattern (and colour) are classic Little Stint. Nothing really seems at
odds to serioulsly consider Red-necked or anything else.
Julian Hough,
CT, USA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: article on Himantopus
From: Arne Lesterhuis <djentl(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 15 Jul 2002 12:17pm
Hi all,
Can somebody provide me with a copy of the next article:
Taylor, I.R. 1999. The carrying capacity of wetlands for shorebirds: a case
study of Black-winged Stilts Himantopus himantopus in saline lagoons. Stilt
35: 68-69
or does anyone has the emailadres of I.R. Taylor, so I can ask directly
Many thanks in advance,
Arne Lesterhuis
Guyra Paraguay; Conservación de Aves
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Fotos: la forma más fácil de compartir e imprimir fotos.
http://photos.msn.es/support/worldwide.aspx
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd)
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 15 Jul 2002 4:02pm
Julian Hough wrote:>The identification seems straightforward: the long legs,
breast pattern and scapular pattern (and colour) are classic Little Stint.
Nothing really seems at odds to serioulsly consider Red-necked or anything
else.<
Little Stints with a 'V' like this should be juveniles which in NW Europe
will not arrive before the middle of August and are at present running
around in downy plumage on the tundra if not still covered by eggshell! If
these feet, which to me look very big, are black then this black is
different from the black we normally see here.
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd)
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 15 Jul 2002 8:48pm
Norman D.van Swelm wrote:
> Little Stints with a 'V' like this should be juveniles which in NW Europe
> will not arrive before the middle of August and are at present running
> around in downy plumage on the tundra if not still covered by eggshell! If
> these feet, which to me look very big, are black then this black is
> different from the black we normally see here.
> Norman
>
Norman,
I am confused by your comments. Are you suggesting the bird is a
juvenile Little, or another species? The feet were as black as the
Western Sandpipers the bird was with. What makes these feet a different
black than what you normally see? Are you thinking that this is not a
Little Stint, or a different population than the ones you see in NW Europe?
Thanks
Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd)
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 16 Jul 2002 1:36am
>Norman D.van Swelm wrote:
>> Little Stints with a 'V' like this should be juveniles which in NW Europe
>> will not arrive before the middle of August and are at present running
>> around in downy plumage on the tundra if not still covered by eggshell!
If
>> these feet, which to me look very big, are black then this black is
>> different from the black we normally see here.<
Dave Lauten wrote:>I am confused by your comments. Are you suggesting the
>bird is a
>juvenile Little, or another species? The feet were as black as the
>Western Sandpipers the bird was with. What makes these feet a different
>black than what you normally see? Are you thinking that this is not a
>Little Stint, or a different population than the ones you see in NW
Europe?<
Hi Dave, Julian and others,
On my screen the legs have a greenish-grey colour and the feet look very
big. The V on the back is too prominent for an adult Little whereas the
timing is wrong for juvenile. That leaves, I think, a choice between Least
and Long-toed Stint.
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd)
From: Tony Morris <tonymorris(AT)easynet.co.uk>
Date: 16 Jul 2002 1:37am
I was a little surprised that the bird was described as the same size
as the Western Sandpipers it was with.
While the largest Little Stint maybe nearly as large as the smallest
Western Sandpiper, I have always thought that on average there is at
least 15-20% difference in size. All the Western present couldn't have
been at the smallest end of the range. As Norman says the back pattern
looks like a juvenile Little Stint and it may be that the leg colour
just doesn't look as black a it was on the particular frames shown.
Light does strange things in single frames, especially with wet black
legs.
Tony Morris
The Hidden House
28 Kingsdown Road
St Margaret's at Cliffe
Dover
Kent
CT15 6AZ
Tel: 01304851943
Mob: 07966740048
tonymorris(AT)easynet.co.uk
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Age of Coos Bay Little Stint
From: Julian Hough <Jrhough1(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 16 Jul 2002 6:27am
Dear All,
Without wishing to make mountains out of molehills, from the date
(July),description of the colour of the head and the streaking/mottling across
the breast, it indicates to me that these are adult features, yet the back
pattern, from what I can deduce on screen, seems to be closer to that of a
juvenile.
Since my resolution of my monitor is partly inhibiting, and may be responsible
for my perception of features, my question, and more interesting, is what is the
true age of the bird.
As for the id, it looks like a Little Stint, and leg color alone rules out
similar species such as Least and Long-toed.
Julian Hough,
CT, USA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten's video (fwd)
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 16 Jul 2002 6:29am
Folks,
First, I assure you that the legs were black and any color reproduction
other than that is a figment of the video or our computers.
Second, I am extremely familiar with Least Sandpiper and this is no
Least Sandpiper. Leg color, body shape and size and bahavior are all
very wrong for Least Sandpiper. I am not sure I mentioned that the bird
was on an open beach, feeding and running about energetically along the
water's edge, often into the water, pumping it's head constantly - these
behaviors are completely wrong for Least Sandpiper. If we see Least's
on the beach the majority of the time they are not in or near the water,
and they certainly never behave this energetically. Nor have I ever
seen any Least juvenile or adult that comes anywhere close to the
overall rufous color of this bird. I am not familiar with Long-toed
Stint, so I can't comment on the behavior aspect of this species, but
from what I have read it seems habitat along with the brightness of the
bird do not suggest a Long-toed Stint.
Third, there is not a juvenile sandpiper anywhere to be found around
here at the moment. Juveniles have not arrived and as already commented
they should still be downy on the tundra.
Fourth, concerning the size, I did state it was the same size as the
Western Sandpipers it was with. I was being relative in the sense that
it was not the size of a Pectoral Sandpiper or something like that.
Western's vary in size greatly; I have looked at literally hundreds of
thousands of Western's and they come in quite the variety of size and
plumage. This bird was about the size of the Western's it was with -
some were a tad bigger and some were the same general size - I probably
but didn't srutinize the bird well enough to compare it millimeter by
millimeter to the Western's. Again point was it was about the same size
as the Western's. Certainly what was clear to us was that the legs were
not shorter than the Western's. According to the literature Red-necked
Stint has short legs and Little have long legs. This bird did not have
short legs. The literature does show that Little should be a half inch
shorter than Western Sandpiper which should be evident. I will have to
look at the video again and see if I can find a segment that has the
bird standing next to some Western's.
Finally, can Little Stint be eliminated on one field mark - a bright V
on the back? Is this field mark so solid that it overrides the other
field marks? Can Long-toed Stints in adult plumage ever show black
legs? I see no reason to believe this bird is a juvenile, so if it were
an adult Long-toed would it not have had yellow legs?
Thanks for all your comments, really appreciate it.
Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com
Tony Morris wrote:
> I was a little surprised that the bird was described as the same size
> as the Western Sandpipers it was with.
> While the largest Little Stint maybe nearly as large as the smallest
> Western Sandpiper, I have always thought that on average there is at
> least 15-20% difference in size. All the Western present couldn't have
> been at the smallest end of the range. As Norman says the back pattern
> looks like a juvenile Little Stint and it may be that the leg colour
> just doesn't look as black a it was on the particular frames shown.
> Light does strange things in single frames, especially with wet black
> legs.
> Tony Morris
>
> The Hidden House
> 28 Kingsdown Road
> St Margaret's at Cliffe
> Dover
> Kent
> CT15 6AZ
> Tel: 01304851943
> Mob: 07966740048
> tonymorris(AT)easynet.co.uk
>
>
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 16 Jul 2002 7:18am
I did the image work on the video captures that were posted and
feel obliged to remind everyone about the single biggest problem
regard color judgements on computer monitors.
I have put up a second page of image 7. It is unbrightened and
unenlarged. It shows a Western and the subject stint. Enlargement
are also shown. The leg colors are essentially indentical and
skewed to reddish-brown, an artifact of the original video capture.
http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/temp/stint02.html
Digitizing at lower resolutions also tends to accentuate the contrast
between light and dark areas in a picture. The apparent brightness
of the scapular "v" is not the same in all images and may be brighter
than it should be. Images of a July Little Stint with fairly strong
looking "braces" is available at.
http://www.oceanwanderers.com/NYLSST.html
Size is an issue that is not likely to be an artifact of the
video (lens can distort size, but not this consistantly), but if
it's too big for a Little Stint, then it's too big for a Least
or Long-toed. This is not a Least Sandpiper, for a lot of other
reasons as well (see Dave's reply on this issue).
For those just entering the discussion the original page with
links to those mentioned above is at:
http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/temp/laut_LIST.html
"Norman D.van Swelm" wrote:
>
> >Norman D.van Swelm wrote:
> >> Little Stints with a 'V' like this should be juveniles which in NW Europe
> >> will not arrive before the middle of August and are at present running
> >> around in downy plumage on the tundra if not still covered by eggshell!
> If
> >> these feet, which to me look very big, are black then this black is
> >> different from the black we normally see here.<
>
> Dave Lauten wrote:>I am confused by your comments. Are you suggesting the
> >bird is a
> >juvenile Little, or another species? The feet were as black as the
> >Western Sandpipers the bird was with. What makes these feet a different
> >black than what you normally see? Are you thinking that this is not a
> >Little Stint, or a different population than the ones you see in NW
> Europe?<
>
> Hi Dave, Julian and others,
> On my screen the legs have a greenish-grey colour and the feet look very
> big. The V on the back is too prominent for an adult Little whereas the
> timing is wrong for juvenile. That leaves, I think, a choice between Least
> and Long-toed Stint.
> Norman
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
A child who becomes acquainted with the birds about him
hears every sound and puzzles out its meaning with a cleverness
that amazes those with ears who hear not.
-Neltje Blanchan
http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay
From: Roland Asteling <roland.asteling(AT)telia.com>
Date: 16 Jul 2002 8:34am
Dear All
I don't agree with Norman's view that an adult Little couldn't show such
a strong "V" in early July. On my screen the "V" is definitely not pure
white as it should be on a juvenile. The bird is an adult if you
consider the rest of the images. For instance are the lower scapulars
too long for a juvenile.
There is a paper published with paintings of peeps by Lars Jonsson in
British Birds 77 (1984) (The same paintings is published in American
Birds 41: 213-236) . Do have a look of what he consider the plumage to
be of an adult Little Stint in June/July on page 312 (fig. 117 c). This
is what they look like when the early ones are heading south through
Sweden and in my view look very much as the North Spit Coos Bay bird.
The color of the legs seem to me to be of little importance since many
of the Western show a color that's not really black either.
All the best
Roland Asteling
Varberg
SWEDEN
Mike Patterson wrote:
>
> I did the image work on the video captures that were posted and
> feel obliged to remind everyone about the single biggest problem
> regard color judgements on computer monitors.
>
> I have put up a second page of image 7. It is unbrightened and
> unenlarged. It shows a Western and the subject stint. Enlargement
> are also shown. The leg colors are essentially indentical and
> skewed to reddish-brown, an artifact of the original video capture.
>
> http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/temp/stint02.html
>
> Digitizing at lower resolutions also tends to accentuate the contrast
> between light and dark areas in a picture. The apparent brightness
> of the scapular "v" is not the same in all images and may be brighter
> than it should be. Images of a July Little Stint with fairly strong
> looking "braces" is available at.
>
> http://www.oceanwanderers.com/NYLSST.html
>
> Size is an issue that is not likely to be an artifact of the
> video (lens can distort size, but not this consistantly), but if
> it's too big for a Little Stint, then it's too big for a Least
> or Long-toed. This is not a Least Sandpiper, for a lot of other
> reasons as well (see Dave's reply on this issue).
>
> For those just entering the discussion the original page with
> links to those mentioned above is at:
>
> http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/temp/laut_LIST.html
>
> "Norman D.van Swelm" wrote:
> >
> > >Norman D.van Swelm wrote:
> > >> Little Stints with a 'V' like this should be juveniles which in NW
Europe
> > >> will not arrive before the middle of August and are at present running
> > >> around in downy plumage on the tundra if not still covered by eggshell!
> > If
> > >> these feet, which to me look very big, are black then this black is
> > >> different from the black we normally see here.<
> >
> > Dave Lauten wrote:>I am confused by your comments. Are you suggesting the
> > >bird is a
> > >juvenile Little, or another species? The feet were as black as the
> > >Western Sandpipers the bird was with. What makes these feet a different
> > >black than what you normally see? Are you thinking that this is not a
> > >Little Stint, or a different population than the ones you see in NW
> > Europe?<
> >
> > Hi Dave, Julian and others,
> > On my screen the legs have a greenish-grey colour and the feet look very
> > big. The V on the back is too prominent for an adult Little whereas the
> > timing is wrong for juvenile. That leaves, I think, a choice between Least
> > and Long-toed Stint.
> > Norman
>
> --
> Mike Patterson
> Astoria, OR
> celata(AT)pacifier.com
>
> A child who becomes acquainted with the birds about him
> hears every sound and puzzles out its meaning with a cleverness
> that amazes those with ears who hear not.
>
> -Neltje Blanchan
>
> http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint, OR, and size assessment in
peeps
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 16 Jul 2002 9:40am
Dear all,
Judging the relative size of a Calidris is rather subjective, and is, I
feel, more influenced in our mind's eye by body/head size rather than
overall length, plus the height of the body (or shoulder) - all compared to
whatever benchmark taxon is available.
So to this case:- keep in mind that the figures in "Shorebirds" are
obtained by measuring laid-out skins from bill-tip to
tail-tip. Comparisons of this nature tend to exaggerate the live
difference seen in the field (unless you often see peeps lying in the prone
position!).
The length for LIST is quoted as 120mm - 140mm, and for WESA 140mm - 170mm
- leading to the much quoted and misleading statement that there "is no
overlap in size". Take a look at the other measurements quoted: while tail
and wing seem to be almost identical, note the significant difference in
bill measurements. Without the actual data it is not possible to know the
true Average, so I'll use the half-way points(based on 16- 20 for LIST;
21-30 for WESA): this creates a 7.5mm difference in bill length, on
"average". If you take this off of the overall length of WESA, you get
some significant overlap of "size-excluding-bill". Further to this, on
page 16 of "Shorebirds" the authors, in stating how "length" was obtained,
mention another element in this equation for which no data are available:
neck length. My personal feeling is that WESA is rather long-necked
compared to SESA; how this compares to LIST I have no idea, but my gut
tells me that WESA may have a slightly longer neck that LIST; if true,
this might further inflate measured differences in overall length.
While many books quote tarsus measurements, it is clear that the TIBIA
length is the biggest factor in the perceived difference in, say RNST and
LIST (and SESA) - and no data are available for this. Again, my personal
view is that LIST is perhaps the longest in the tibia, such that, unlike
RNST, it would stand at least as "tall" as a WESA.
Adding all this together, I feel that an average LIST in a flock of WESAs
would LOOK to be about the same "size", because it stands as tall, and has
about the same body bulk.
It would be helpful to hear from anyone who has seen other LISTs among
WESAs, or vice-versa (although any one individual may be far from the
average, and thus misleading.) Another way of assessing this is to use a
connection taxon: SESA:- I see SESA and WESAs together on a regular basis,
and overall, I feel their field-size is about the same (certainly I could
never use size to sort out short-billed WESAs) Are there any pics of SESAs
in Europe with numerous LISTS?
Regarding the Oregon individual, I agree with Julian and Roland that
everything is consistent with an adult LIST, while the leg structure and
color rule out LESA - however, LESAs are so variable in plumage that I'd
hesitate to say there could be anything in the feather patterning that
rules it out.
One last comment: did anyone else note how, in images DC0007 and DSC0006
that while thankfully one foot shows a lack of webbing, the OTHER foot
looks rather webbed on the outer side....I don't think this is a reality,
but instead illustrates just how hard it is to assess webbing in many
photos, and at all times on a real, live, moving bird.
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint, OR, and size assessment in
peeps
From: Keith Arnold <kaarnold(AT)TAMU.EDU>
Date: 16 Jul 2002 11:07am
I usually avoid these types of conflicts, but I would like to call attention to
one small fallacy in Martin's attempt to show size differences in LIST and WESA.
I have no experience with the former, but the latter species has STRONG sexual
dimorphism in the bill; hence, taking the mid-way point tells us little unless
the LIST also shows strong sexual dimorphism [and in the sam direction - males
much smaller].
Keith A. Arnold
WFSC TAMU
College Station
>>> Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET> 07/16/02 11:44AM >>>
Dear all,
Judging the relative size of a Calidris is rather subjective, and is, I
feel, more influenced in our mind's eye by body/head size rather than
overall length, plus the height of the body (or shoulder) - all compared to
whatever benchmark taxon is available.
So to this case:- keep in mind that the figures in "Shorebirds" are
obtained by measuring laid-out skins from bill-tip to
tail-tip. Comparisons of this nature tend to exaggerate the live
difference seen in the field (unless you often see peeps lying in the prone
position!).
The length for LIST is quoted as 120mm - 140mm, and for WESA 140mm - 170mm
- leading to the much quoted and misleading statement that there "is no
overlap in size". Take a look at the other measurements quoted: while tail
and wing seem to be almost identical, note the significant difference in
bill measurements. Without the actual data it is not possible to know the
true Average, so I'll use the half-way points(based on 16- 20 for LIST;
21-30 for WESA): this creates a 7.5mm difference in bill length, on
"average". If you take this off of the overall length of WESA, you get
some significant overlap of "size-excluding-bill". Further to this, on
page 16 of "Shorebirds" the authors, in stating how "length" was obtained,
mention another element in this equation for which no data are available:
neck length. My personal feeling is that WESA is rather long-necked
compared to SESA; how this compares to LIST I have no idea, but my gut
tells me that WESA may have a slightly longer neck that LIST; if true,
this might further inflate measured differences in overall length.
While many books quote tarsus measurements, it is clear that the TIBIA
length is the biggest factor in the perceived difference in, say RNST and
LIST (and SESA) - and no data are available for this. Again, my personal
view is that LIST is perhaps the longest in the tibia, such that, unlike
RNST, it would stand at least as "tall" as a WESA.
Adding all this together, I feel that an average LIST in a flock of WESAs
would LOOK to be about the same "size", because it stands as tall, and has
about the same body bulk.
It would be helpful to hear from anyone who has seen other LISTs among
WESAs, or vice-versa (although any one individual may be far from the
average, and thus misleading.) Another way of assessing this is to use a
connection taxon: SESA:- I see SESA and WESAs together on a regular basis,
and overall, I feel their field-size is about the same (certainly I could
never use size to sort out short-billed WESAs) Are there any pics of SESAs
in Europe with numerous LISTS?
Regarding the Oregon individual, I agree with Julian and Roland that
everything is consistent with an adult LIST, while the leg structure and
color rule out LESA - however, LESAs are so variable in plumage that I'd
hesitate to say there could be anything in the feather patterning that
rules it out.
One last comment: did anyone else note how, in images DC0007 and DSC0006
that while thankfully one foot shows a lack of webbing, the OTHER foot
looks rather webbed on the outer side....I don't think this is a reality,
but instead illustrates just how hard it is to assess webbing in many
photos, and at all times on a real, live, moving bird.
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint, OR, and size assessment in
peeps
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 16 Jul 2002 11:33am
From Prater, Marchant and Vuorinen (1977):
Bill size
WESA males (n=11) 21-29mm (23.7mm)
WESA females (n=10) 21-29mm (25.4mm)
percent difference in averages 7.2%
LIST males (n=9) 17-19mm (17.9mm)
List females (n=13) 17-20mm (19.0mm)
percent difference in averages 6.1%
Keith Arnold wrote:
>
> I usually avoid these types of conflicts, but I would like to call attention
to one small fallacy in Martin's attempt to show size differences in LIST and
WESA. I have no experience with the former, but the latter species has STRONG
sexual dimorphism in the bill; hence, taking the mid-way point tells us little
unless the LIST also shows strong sexual dimorphism [and in the sam direction -
males much smaller].
>
> Keith A. Arnold
> WFSC TAMU
> College Station
>
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
A child who becomes acquainted with the birds about him
hears every sound and puzzles out its meaning with a cleverness
that amazes those with ears who hear not.
-Neltje Blanchan
http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten'svideo
From: "Wayne C. Weber" <contopus(AT)SHAW.CA>
Date: 16 Jul 2002 2:02pm
Bird ID People,
Concerning the conspicuous white "V" on the back of the Coos Bay
bird--- at least one authority (Dennis Paulson, in "Shorebirds of
the Pacific Northwest") agrees that this is typical of adult Little
Stints, as well as juveniles. To quote Dennis: "LITTLE usually has
conspicuous mantle lines, [which are] poorly developed in
RUFOUS-NECKED [= Red-necked] and other stints". I am presuming that by
"mantle lines", Dennis is referring to the whitish lines along the
border between the mantle and scapular feathers.
Although I am very familiar with Western, Semipalmated, and Least
Sandpipers, I have seen Red-necked Stint only twice, and Little Stint
only once. This Little Stint, which was in adult breeding plumage, was
at the Iona Island sewage ponds near Vancouver, B.C., on June 2, 1992.
It was seen by numerous other observers. My field notes on this bird
are not handy, but it had a very conspicuous pair of mantle stripes,
similar to those on Dave and Kathy's bird. In fact, the overall
plumage of this bird was very similar to that of the Coos Bay bird. On
the date of June 2 (or equally, on July 13), the chance of a juvenile
is virtually nil. I can only conclude that the Coos Bay bird was a
typical adult LITTLE STINT.
Wayne C. Weber
Delta, BC, Canada
contopus(AT)shaw.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Little Stint at North Spit Coos Bay - Dave
Lauten'svideo (fwd)
> Folks,
>
>
> Finally, can Little Stint be eliminated on one field mark - a bright
V
> on the back? Is this field mark so solid that it overrides the
other
> field marks? Can Long-toed Stints in adult plumage ever show black
> legs? I see no reason to believe this bird is a juvenile, so if it
were
> an adult Long-toed would it not have had yellow legs?
>
> Thanks for all your comments, really appreciate it.
>
> Dave Lauten
> Bandon OR
> birdsong(AT)harborside.com
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: White-morph Western Reef-Heron?
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 17 Jul 2002 11:02am
How does one distinguish between dark feathers and dark grime (e.g., oil) in
a white egret/heron without capturing or killing the bird? Photos of two
egrets with dark markings are posted at:
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttmysteryegrets
One might be a white-morph Western Reef-Heron, or is it a very dirty Little
Egret, or even a hybrid? The other resembles a less dirty Snowy Egret.
Comments are welcome and will be posted (anonymously, unless you wish to
post your name or post comments publicly to ID Frontiers) to a page linked
with the photos.
Regretably Geocities limits the number of bytes accessed per hour at free
sites, so if you can't access the photos try again later.
-Floyd
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Dark-lored juvenile Snowy Egrets
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 17 Jul 2002 11:08am
Photographs of dark-lored juvenile Snowy Egrets, plus comparative photos of
Little and Snowy Egrets, are posted at:
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/idlittlesnowyegret
If you have difficulty accessing the site, try again later.
-Floyd
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: White-morph Western Reef-Heron?
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 19 Jul 2002 10:21am
I've received only two responses to my query about egrets with dark markings
(http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttmysteryegrets): one suggested the
first and the other the second was a Snowy x Little Blue hybrid. Nobody
attempted to address how to distinguish between dark feathers and dark grime
on feathers. However, I think I might have an answer.
Sleuthing with Google turned up far more white- and dark-morph Western
Reef-Herons (including gularis and schistacea, sensu AOU) than I could find
several years ago. The white-morph individuals all appeared pure white. Only
one "intermediate" schistacea in Spain had light grayish feathers resembling
the Trinidad egret. Photos of the Spanish bird are at:
http://www.terra.es/personal3/gutarb/arbsf001.htm
http://www.terra.es/personal3/gutarb/arbsf006.htm
http://www.terra.es/personal3/gutarb/irbsf025.jpg (best image)
This individual has a FAIRLY UNIFORM PATTERN of light gray centers and white
edges to the wing feathers, which could not possibly result from soiling. Is
such a relatively uniform pattern typical for "intermediate" morphs?
Although the Trinidad bird appears to have light gray tones scattered
throughout its plumage (top of head to thighs and on both sides), the
PATTERN APPEARS IRREGULAR. Thus, I’m suspicious it resulted somehow from
soiling--but have never seen a similarly gray bird (anybody else?) despite
routinely scanning hundreds of Snowies for Little Egret nearly every week.
I'm now quite confident the second egret is merely a dirty Snowy. The
bicolored bill pattern seems to be an artifact of clay soils on the bill.
A perusal of Western Reef-Heron photos revealed tremendous variation in lore
color (reddish, yellowish, grayish, blackish), bill color (ranging from
mostly orange to entirely black but usually brownish-gray), leg color
(grayish, brownish, even all black), and even bill shape (long or short,
tapering or stout, straight or slightly decurved). Here is a list of photos:
WHITE MORPH:
Italy (one bird):
http://digilander.libero.it/Avifaunacesenate/schista.jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/Avifaunacesenate/schista1.jpg
Egypt (each a different bird):
http://www.birdingegypt.com/images/Egrgul93.JPG
http://www.birdingegypt.com/images/Egrgar23.JPG (possibly Little Egret?)
http://www.birdingegypt.com/images/Egrgar41_2.JPG (possibly Little Egret?)
http://www.birdingegypt.com/images/Egrgul49.JPG
http://www.birdingegypt.com/images/Egrgul53.JPG
http://www.birdingegypt.com/images/Egrgul56.JPG
South Africa (one bird):
http://www.zestforbirds.co.za/reefegret01.html
http://www.zestforbirds.co.za/reefegret02.html
http://www.zestforbirds.co.za/reefegret03.html
Locality?: http://www.camacdonald.com/birding/WesternReefheron(GB).jpg
DARK MORPH:
USA: http://www.otterside.com/slidejpg/herwreef-l.jpg
Trinidad and Tobago:
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttwesternreef-heron
Spain (each different?):
http://www.terra.es/personal5/arbmor/arbsf018.htm
http://www.rarebirdspain.net/arbsr202.htm
Italy: http://www.ebnitalia.it/rarities/gulare.htm
Egypt: http://www.birdingegypt.com/images/Egrgul57.JPG
-Floyd
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Possible hybrid small gull in New York State
From: Andy Guthrie <andyguthrie(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 19 Jul 2002 7:37pm
Last Sunday, July 14, 2002, I saw an unusual small gull in a Laughing Gull
(Larus atricilla) flock at Jamaica Bay Refuge in New York City, NY. My
initial impression was that of Black-headed Gull (Larus ridibundus), but the
mantle seemed somewhat too dark compared to the Laughing Gulls; the bill
seemed a bit to heavy and with too sharp a gonydeal angle for Black-headed;
and the primary pattern wasn't right.
Unfortunately the bird was blocked almost the entire time I was viewing it.
Some pictures and discussion are online at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~andyguthrie/mysterygull.htm
There's a link to a second page of pictures below the first set. The pages
(especially the second) take a while to load but I wanted to provide as much
information as possible.
Any thoughts on the speciation or parentage of the bird would be greatly
appreciated!
Cheers,
Andy Guthrie
Port Chester, NY
andyguthrie(AT)earthlink.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible hybrid small gull in New York State
From: Menotti Passarella <aster_men(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 19 Jul 2002 10:55pm
Hi.
Here in Italy I'm familiar with Black-headed Gull, and
that bird recall me BHG. Nevertheless, the mantle is
too dark and the bill too heavy [long] for BHG.
So, I may imagine an hybrid Black-headed Gull X
Laughing Gull (for: mantle color, bill and also the
shadow of hood, too defined for BHG).
Cheers
Menotti Passarella
Italy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/birdinggulls/
--- Andy Guthrie <andyguthrie(AT)EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> Last Sunday, July 14, 2002, I saw an unusual small
> gull in a Laughing Gull
> (Larus atricilla) flock at Jamaica Bay Refuge in
> New York City, NY. My
> initial impression was that of Black-headed Gull
> (Larus ridibundus), but the
> mantle seemed somewhat too dark compared to the
> Laughing Gulls; the bill
> seemed a bit to heavy and with too sharp a gonydeal
> angle for Black-headed;
> and the primary pattern wasn't right.
>
> Unfortunately the bird was blocked almost the entire
> time I was viewing it.
> Some pictures and discussion are online at:
>
>
http://home.earthlink.net/~andyguthrie/mysterygull.htm
>
> There's a link to a second page of pictures below
> the first set. The pages
> (especially the second) take a while to load but I
> wanted to provide as much
> information as possible.
>
> Any thoughts on the speciation or parentage of the
> bird would be greatly
> appreciated!
>
> Cheers,
> Andy Guthrie
> Port Chester, NY
> andyguthrie(AT)earthlink.net
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible hybrid small gull in New York State
From: Jack Dozier <jdozier(AT)NETTALLY.COM>
Date: 19 Jul 2002 11:50pm
At 10:36 PM 7/19/02 -0400, Andy Guthrie wrote:
>Last Sunday, July 14, 2002, I saw an unusual small gull in a Laughing Gull
>(Larus atricilla) flock at Jamaica Bay Refuge in New York City, NY. My
>initial impression was that of Black-headed Gull (Larus ridibundus), but the
>mantle seemed somewhat too dark compared to the Laughing Gulls; the bill
>seemed a bit to heavy and with too sharp a gonydeal angle for Black-headed;
>and the primary pattern wasn't right.
>
>Unfortunately the bird was blocked almost the entire time I was viewing it.
>Some pictures and discussion are online at:
>
>http://home.earthlink.net/~andyguthrie/mysterygull.htm
>
>There's a link to a second page of pictures below the first set. The pages
>(especially the second) take a while to load but I wanted to provide as much
>information as possible.
>
>Any thoughts on the speciation or parentage of the bird would be greatly
>appreciated!
>
>Cheers,
>Andy Guthrie
>Port Chester, NY
>andyguthrie(AT)earthlink.net
I think this is a Laughing Gull. I noticed a very similar individual last
week here in FL. I suspect the plumage and bill color changes are a little
out of sync with it's compatriots; --individual variation--accounts for the
differences. IMHO, Jack
Jack Dozier
Alligator Pt., FL
jdozier(AT)nettally.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible hybrid small gull in New York State
From: Andy Guthrie <andyguthrie(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 20 Jul 2002 8:10pm
Thanks to all who have responded so far!
I would like to clarify that I do not think this bird is a Black-headed
Gull, for the reasons mentioned on the web page - all respondents so far
concur with this.
A couple of people have proposed that the gull is an aberrantly plumaged,
perhaps leucistic, Laughing Gull. I don't think so, largely because I think
it is too structurally different to fall within
normal size variation of Laughing, and because I don't think that the
combination of features would result from leucism, including what would be
mainly normally pigmented primaries, but with obvious well-defined mirrors,
and also the pattern on the head and nape.
I have added a head shot of a subadult Laughing Gull taken today to Figure 4
which I think will clarify the difference in bill size and structure and
head pattern.
Thanks to all who have responded so far, and I look forward to additional
comments!
Cheers,
Andy Guthrie
Port Chester, NY
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Guthrie" <andyguthrie(AT)earthlink.net>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:36 PM
Subject: Possible hybrid small gull in New York State
> Last Sunday, July 14, 2002, I saw an unusual small gull in a Laughing Gull
> (Larus atricilla) flock at Jamaica Bay Refuge in New York City, NY. My
> initial impression was that of Black-headed Gull (Larus ridibundus), but
the
> mantle seemed somewhat too dark compared to the Laughing Gulls; the bill
> seemed a bit to heavy and with too sharp a gonydeal angle for
Black-headed;
> and the primary pattern wasn't right.
>
> Unfortunately the bird was blocked almost the entire time I was viewing
it.
> Some pictures and discussion are online at:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~andyguthrie/mysterygull.htm
>
> There's a link to a second page of pictures below the first set. The
pages
> (especially the second) take a while to load but I wanted to provide as
much
> information as possible.
>
> Any thoughts on the speciation or parentage of the bird would be greatly
> appreciated!
>
> Cheers,
> Andy Guthrie
> Port Chester, NY
> andyguthrie(AT)earthlink.net
>
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