ID-FRONTIERS for October 20-26, 2002

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: RFH: Identifying Cassin's Vireos in the Fall   Steven Mlodinow    Sun, 20 Oct 2002   9:08am   Solitary Vireos   Matt Heindel    Mon, 21 Oct 2002   6:16am   White Wagtail - subspecific ID   Will Cook    Thu, 24 Oct 2002   9:23am   Re: White Wagtail - subspecific ID   Peter Adriaens    Thu, 24 Oct 2002   3:58pm   RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover   Martin Reid    Fri, 25 Oct 2002   5:11am   Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover   Norman D.van Swelm   Fri, 25 Oct 2002   6:55am   Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover   Peter Adriaens    Fri, 25 Oct 2002   8:10am   Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover   Lethaby, Nick   Fri, 25 Oct 2002   11:01am   Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover   KACastelein and DJLa   Fri, 25 Oct 2002   2:16pm   Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover   Julian Hough    Sat, 26 Oct 2002   8:24am   Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover   Colin Bradshaw    Sat, 26 Oct 2002   10:00am   Willow Warbler pix   George L. Armistead   Sat, 26 Oct 2002   4:34pm

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Subject: Re: RFH: Identifying Cassin's Vireos in the Fall
From: Steven Mlodinow <SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 20 Oct 2002 9:08am

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Greetings

I actually think that Cassin's and BH Vireos tend to be harder in fall, when
Cassin's can be very bright.

Before discussing the photos at hand, I'd like to say that some of these
birds are just not identifiable, at least by me, even with exquisite looks.
I've seen birds in Chicago during fall and Florida during winter that looked
kind of Cassin's-like, but have been towards the bright end for Cassin's and
I've left them as ?? -- In my heart, with the statistical liklihood in my
mind, I think they were more likely the dull end of the BH Vireo spectrum
rather than an extremely rare vagrant Cassin's. On the flip side, I've seen
birds that looked like dull BH Vireos in WA and CA during fall that I've also
left unidentified, thinking that they might well be bright fall Cassin's. Now
isn't that unsatisfying. But I think, reality.

Now, regarding Martin's birds. The first sure sounds like a Cassin's. In
years of birding in Chicago, with trips elsewhere in the east, I've never
seen a Solitary Vireo that lacks gray on the crown or nape. On the other
hand, other marks need to be reviewed, such as secondary/tertial edgings,
tail pattern, flank and vent pattern, before a firm ID could be rendered.

The second bird would stop my pulse in Washington. Though the cheek/throat
contrast looks dull, the head looks very gray and the flanks clean yellow.
Now, given the grainy and somewhat dim photo (no criticism of Martin
intended. Photographing these guys is really a challenge), it is hard to be
certain of these features. Nonetheless, bird number two is certainly not a
typical Cassin's. If I saw it in Chicago, I'd write it off as a dull BH Vireo
or leave it unidentified.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
Everett WA (formerly Chicago IL)

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Subject: Solitary Vireos
From: Matt Heindel <MTHEINDEL(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 21 Oct 2002 6:16am

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I think Steve Mlodinow did an excellent job of assessing the Solitary Vireo
issue and Martin's birds, in particular. I have shared my views on these
birds with Martin and Texbirds, but perhaps hearing this from more people is
needed.

Whether the vireo ID is easier in spring or fall depends on what plumage you
are contemplating. I think they are very tough in fall when CAVI (males
especially) are at their boldest). As I wrote on Texbirds, I think two things
are needed in dealing with this ID. First, although pictures are great, I
believe one must see these birds regularly to get a feel for them. Only
through routine observations of the entire spectrum does a feel develop.
Second, more than most of our ID problems, out of range birds are going to be
idenitifable only on the extreme. They might be interesting to ponder, but I
do not believe it is wise to pursue pinning a name on some of these birds.

ABout his vireo, Martin said : <with very poor cheek/throat delineation (in
my opinion.)>
I disagree with this assessment and have told Martin this. I would not judge
this as a poor delineation (much less a very poor delineation). And, while it
might be a Cassin's, Steve's point is exactly right: In the west, this bird
would get a lot of scrutiny.

As I told Martin, this bird might be a CAVI, but just as I would not call it
a BHVI if I were stuck in Lodi (CA), I would not think CAVI here in TX.

Matt Heindel

San Antonio TX

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Subject: White Wagtail - subspecific ID
From: Will Cook <cwcook(AT)DUKE.EDU>
Date: 24 Oct 2002 9:23am

On 24 October a wagtail was found at Falls Lake, North Carolina. The
consensus is that it's a first-winter White Wagtail (Motacilla alba).  We'd
like to determine the subspecies, if possible.  The leading contender is M.
a. alba, but can M. a. yarrellii or other subspecies be ruled out?

I've posted photographs at:
http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/pix/whitewagtail.html

Are there any documented records of M. a. alba in the U.S.?  An adult was
photographed in Quebec, Canada on 4 May 2002 (thanks to Pierre Bannon for
this information).

Thanks,

Will
--
Charles W. "Will" Cook                  w 919-660-7423
http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook            cwcook(AT)duke.edu
Biology Dept., Duke Univ., Box 90340, Durham, NC 27708


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Subject: Re: White Wagtail - subspecific ID
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 24 Oct 2002 3:58pm

Hello Will and others,

first of all, I agree that this bird should be a first winter; e.g. the
tips to (the outer webs of) the greater coverts are visibly paler (whiter)
than the edges (which are rather more greyish), and there is a clear
yellowish tinge to the head. Secondly, the bird is not a Black-backed
Wagtail indeed, because of its dark-based secondaries, narrow whitish
wingbars, greyish rump, the pattern of the outer rectrix, etc... A useful
reference in this respect is
"Howell & Sibley, 1998. Identification of White and Black-backed Wagtails
in basic plumage. Western Birds 29:180-198."
It looks like a White Wagtail of the subspecies 'alba', more than anything
else. A first winter 'yarrellii' (Pied Wagtail) should have acquired some
distinct black mottling on the crown by early October: also, the lower
rump should have some blackish feathers admixed, while it seems to be
entirely greyish in this case. The flanks are rather pale greyish, which
is slightly better for a first-winter White rather than Pied Wagtail,
though this character is not always that useful in immature birds.
Best regards,
Peter Adriaens
Belgium

> On 24 October a wagtail was found at Falls Lake, North Carolina. The
> consensus is that it's a first-winter White Wagtail (Motacilla alba).
> We'd
> like to determine the subspecies, if possible.  The leading contender is
> M.
> a. alba, but can M. a. yarrellii or other subspecies be ruled out?
>
> I've posted photographs at:
> http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/pix/whitewagtail.html
>
> Are there any documented records of M. a. alba in the U.S.?  An adult was
> photographed in Quebec, Canada on 4 May 2002 (thanks to Pierre Bannon for
> this information).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Will
> --
> Charles W. "Will" Cook                  w 919-660-7423
> http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook            cwcook(AT)duke.edu
> Biology Dept., Duke Univ., Box 90340, Durham, NC 27708
>


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Subject: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 25 Oct 2002 5:11am

Dear all,
Here is a young Pluvialis (not seen by me) that has me intrigued:
http://www.martinreid.com/pluvialis.html
I feel that this bird presents an interesting challenge, as regardless of
its actual identity, it seems to set a benchmark when using some of the
traditional field marks for juvenile dominica/fulva.
Regards,
Martin

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


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Subject: Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 25 Oct 2002 6:55am

Martin Reid wrote:> Here is a young Pluvialis (not seen by me) that has me
intrigued:
> http://www.martinreid.com/pluvialis.html
> I feel that this bird presents an interesting challenge, as regardless of
> its actual identity, it seems to set a benchmark when using some of the
> traditional field marks for juvenile dominica/fulva.<
and .... on his website Martin mentions that it has shortish legs. But has
it? To me it seems it has thin and long tibia favouring fulva, so Martin
where was it taken? Hongkong?
Cheerio, Norman


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Subject: Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)DUTCHBIRDING.NL>
Date: 25 Oct 2002 8:10am

Martin,

I suppose this is a very fresh juvenile American Golden Plover? Actually,
such birds have been described before. Apart from structural features,
they still differ from (dull) juvenile Pacific in the lack of an obvious
yellow tinge to the supercilium, face, neck, and breast.
The first of your photographs seems to have been taken in very strong
sunlight, exaggerating the brightness of this individual (perhaps more
than in real life).
Structure looks typical of American Golden, in any case.
Best regards,
Peter Adriaens
Belgium

> Dear all,
> Here is a young Pluvialis (not seen by me) that has me intrigued:
> http://www.martinreid.com/pluvialis.html
> I feel that this bird presents an interesting challenge, as regardless of
> its actual identity, it seems to set a benchmark when using some of the
> traditional field marks for juvenile dominica/fulva.
> Regards,
> Martin
>
>
> Martin Reid
> Fort Worth, Texas
> mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
> http://www.martinreid.com
>


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Subject: Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 25 Oct 2002 11:01am

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I think I would lean to American on this on, although it does seem unusually
bright. One troubling point is that the primaries don't seem to extend much
beyond the tail and this would favor Pacific. I'm not sure you can really
call this bird.

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Reid [mailto:upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET]
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 5:16 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover

Dear all,
Here is a young Pluvialis (not seen by me) that has me intrigued:
http://www.martinreid.com/pluvialis.html
I feel that this bird presents an interesting challenge, as regardless of
its actual identity, it seems to set a benchmark when using some of the
traditional field marks for juvenile dominica/fulva.
Regards,
Martin

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com

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Subject: Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 25 Oct 2002 2:16pm

I tend to agree with Nick on this bird, that I lean towards American,
but it is bright, and I think this bird might fit into the unknown
category.  From our experience here on the coast of Oregon where both
species occur, we find that some birds just aren't identifiable.  Sort
of like what Steve Mlodinow said about the Cassin's/Blue-headed Vireos.

Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com

Lethaby, Nick wrote:

> I think I would lean to American on this on, although it does seem
> unusually bright. One troubling point is that the primaries don't seem
> to extend much beyond the tail and this would favor Pacific. I'm not
> sure you can really call this bird.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Reid [mailto:upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET]
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 5:16 AM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover
>
>
> Dear all,
> Here is a young Pluvialis (not seen by me) that has me intrigued:
> http://www.martinreid.com/pluvialis.html
> I feel that this bird presents an interesting challenge, as regardless of
> its actual identity, it seems to set a benchmark when using some of the
> traditional field marks for juvenile dominica/fulva.
> Regards,
> Martin
>
>
> Martin Reid
> Fort Worth, Texas
> mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
> http://www.martinreid.com
>


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Subject: Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover
From: Julian Hough <Jrhough1(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 2002 8:24am

Martin et al,

I agree with Norman and others that the interseting bird at:

http://www.martinreid.com/pluvialis.html

is a juvenile American GP due to:

1).Smallish bill (not looking broad-based as in many, but not all, Pacifics)
2).Shortish tertials falling short of the tail tip, exposing four outer
primary tips. (Many Pacifics show less exposed primary area)
3). Yellow suffusion not particularly prominent throughout the face and
lacking on the underparts (Usually noticeable in these areas on many
Pacifics).

Since the yellowish tones are often a first indicator of a Pacific, this bird
would normally attract attention from those searching for one.
As for primary extension, the amount of wingtip past the tail tip seems to be
variable in both species, especially since it appears (in litt and photos)
that some Siberian Pacifics are longer winged than other populations, so I
feel it can sometimes add a little confusion to the id. process when
attempting to use this feature alone.
I think the area of exposed primaries (much in AGP, little in PGP) is a good
initial clue, rather than the relationship, of wing-length vs tail tip vs
length of tertials relative to tail base etc.
Also, the longer-looking legs of Pacific always strike me in the field,
though it can be hard to judge in photos: the juv. in Photo. Guide to
Shorebirds of the World (Cottridge and Rosair) doesn't look longer-legged
than many AGP.

Most of the AGP I see are typically greyish looking, but I don't think that
this bright bird is too unusual. I see a similar variation in juv.
Black-bellied Plovers here in CT, with some juvs being distinctly
"yellowish-brown" as opposed to the typical "greyish-white"  individuals.

Julian Hough
CT, USA

Naturescape Images website:
http://members.aol.com/jrhough1/index.html


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Subject: Re: RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover
From: Colin Bradshaw <drcolin.bradshaw(AT)BTINTERNET.COM>
Date: 26 Oct 2002 10:00am

Dear All,

I agree with the identification of American Golden Plover. I think the lack
of yellow in the supercilium and the primary projection is the key. As
Julian says primary:tail positioning is a very difficult thing to judge as
it is dependent on position.

I've got a series of photographs taken this September of a bird at Port
Perry Sewage Lagoons near Toronto. This bird is just as yellow as the bird
on Martin's website on the mantle and scapulars and also shows the slight
contrast between these and the whitish spots on the coverts. My bird is
slightly less yellow around the head but mine has the advantage of having
been photographed with the light directly behind me so that colour and
contrast is spot on.

The particularly interesting thing about this bird is that on some
photographs the wings appear short with the primary tip falling short of the
tail whilst on others it overlaps the tail. Despite this the primary
projection looks pretty good and it doesn't have that slightly truncated
look of PGP.

I can scan in these photos and send them to anyone who wants to see them or
can post them onto a web-site [that last bit is currently beyond my
technical know-how]

cheers

Colin

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu]On Behalf Of Martin Reid
Sent: 25 October 2002 13:16 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] RFI: a juvenile Lesser Golden Plover

Dear all,
Here is a young Pluvialis (not seen by me) that has me intrigued:
http://www.martinreid.com/pluvialis.html
I feel that this bird presents an interesting challenge, as regardless of
its actual identity, it seems to set a benchmark when using some of the
traditional field marks for juvenile dominica/fulva.
Regards,
Martin

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


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Subject: Willow Warbler pix
From: "George L. Armistead" <gla(AT)SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Date: 26 Oct 2002 4:34pm

For those interested here is a link to some pictures I took of North America's
1st Willow Warbler out on Gambell this August.  Paul Lehman
(lehmfinn(AT)verizon.net )and I (georgearmistead(AT)hotmail.com) would love to hear
anyone's thoughts about subspecies especially from those experienced with
eastern forms such as acredula and yakutensis.

http://www.ebird.org/features/feature_102102.jsp

Very best,
-George L. Armistead