ID-FRONTIERS for November 24-30, 2002

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Dark Cattle Egret   Floyd Hayes    Sun, 24 Nov 2002   4:52pm   RFI: eye color of juv. SWHa and RLHA   Martin Reid    Mon, 25 Nov 2002   5:28am   pacific/arctic loon   Carlson, John   Mon, 25 Nov 2002   8:42am   Montana Pacific/Arctic Loon   Carlson, John   Mon, 25 Nov 2002   9:32am   Pictures of Mangrove Swallow at Viera, FL   John H Boyd III    Tue, 26 Nov 2002   9:47am   Near-albino Black-capped Chickadee in Nova Scotia   Blake Maybank    Tue, 26 Nov 2002   10:16am   Gray vs. Great Blue Heron?   Ned Brinkley    Thu, 28 Nov 2002   7:32am   Re: Gray vs. Great Blue Heron?   Floyd Hayes    Fri, 29 Nov 2002   8:00am   Re: Gray vs. Great Blue Heron?   Bruce Mactavish    Fri, 29 Nov 2002   4:20pm   RFH: have GWGU genes reached Texas?   Martin Reid    Sat, 30 Nov 2002   5:56am   Re: Gray vs. Great Blue Heron?   Phil Davis    Sat, 30 Nov 2002   12:34pm   Re: RFH: have GWGU genes reached Texas?   Bruce Mactavish    Sat, 30 Nov 2002   3:33pm   RFH: have GWGU genes reached Texas?   Phil Pickering    Sat, 30 Nov 2002   5:00pm

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Subject: Dark Cattle Egret
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 24 Nov 2002 4:52pm

Photos of a dark Cattle Egret in Barbados are posted
at:

http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/bacattleegret.html

Is this bird melanistic, or merely dyed/stained with
new feathers moulting in? I suspect the latter.

-Floyd

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Subject: RFI: eye color of juv. SWHa and RLHA
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 25 Nov 2002 5:28am

Dear all,
In my ongoing study of the hybrid Buteo in Texas:
http://www.martinreid.com/Raptors3.html
- I confirmed yesterday that the eye is rather pale; not bright, staring
yellow, but not mid-brown either - instead a kind of dull yellow.  My
references imply that juv RLHA has a pale yellow eye, while juv. Swainson's
has a mid-brown eye - can anyone provide data/experience confirming or
refuting this?
Thanks,
Martin

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


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Subject: pacific/arctic loon
From: "Carlson, John" <jocarlson(AT)STATE.MT.US>
Date: 25 Nov 2002 8:42am

Hello all,
I would like to get some comments on an alternate plumage Pacific/Common
loon that was recently observed in MT. The photo (hopefully more to follow)
can be found at:
http://community.webshots.com/album/30228640ivnRWfXyWY

I have also included the following text from Tim Barksdale, one of the
initial observers.
"It has now turned dark and I have spent over 6 hours observing this loon
today. John Nordrum has also spent many hours as well. I will summarize the
feelings of the three observers who have observed this bird today.
Overall, this loon appears to be a moderate sized bird. When I was taping
this evening in very poor light I had very good comparisons to Mallard,
Western Grebe and Canada Goose. The bird is certainly much larger than
nearby Mallards. Much Bulkier and I think overall longer than Western Grebe.
This should put the bird closer to Arctic Loon (ARLO) size than Pacific.
When compared to the body of a nearby Canada Goose it actually was
surprising how large it appeared.
Head and bill: The first impression each of us had was the bill was NOT
right for Pacific Loon (PALO). It is longer and broader at the base. This
individual does not mimic Red-throated Loon (RTLO) behavior with its bill
mostly held upward but does hold it primarily horizontal. On occasion, it
has been seen holding the bill slightly above horizontal but not as extreme
as one ARLO I filmed in 1998 in Nome.
I have observed hundreds of PALO's and filmed many and never have I seen a
bill like this, it is longer than any PALO and has a slight droop on the
lower mandible. The photo somewhat shows this. The bill appears to stay
rather broad to the tip where it tapers quickly to a point.
The head shape (which some have reported as the best single characteristic)
is normally seen as sloping rather gently from the upper mandible then
curving rather steeply to a rounded peak on the forecrown. The crown tends
to be rather flat and under 99% of my observation time I would describe it
as flat leading to a broadly rounded nape and rear of the neck.
Neck Striping is normally rather longer and narrower than this shot shows
and neck is fairly long and graceful but never as long as Western Grebe.
When it is holding the head down, the neck appears broader and the crown
appears most "fluffy'"as this shot shows. Additionally, if it is of any help
at all, the tiny white and black striped line at the bend of the neck shows
rather prominently. I would say that it appears closer to ARLO than PALO in
both of these striping characteristics.
Contrast between nape and forecrown is not great but between face and rear
of the neck- it is clearly there.
Body:
This bird typically rode very low in the water. It often appeared that the
wings touched the waves. When the bird flapped or raised wings no dark sides
were visible. I was able to document the white flank patches as the bird
dove this evening with John Nordrum. However, under no circumstances- to the
point have I seen- were flanks patches of the size and extent that the
fore-mentioned Nome bird exhibited or many other photographs of Arctic Loon.
About noon, when this photo was taken low profile patches of white were
visible along the flanks but I did not notice any evidence that this angled
upward sharply toward the rear as so many ARLO's show. John concurred with
this point.
Vent strap:
Yesterday, during the afternoon under excellent light, I watched the bird
just off shore vigorously preening. I was absolutely certain that it was
totally clean white to the very end of the distal portion of the body. I had
excellent angles. Today, John reported that he felt "something" was there.
But he did not feel that he could say even what it was. Later, ONE TIME, I
thought that I saw "something" here also. BUT when I got the very best looks
and angles at the preening bird even today I could not see any vent strap.
At the end of the day John and I who both spent the majority of time
observing this bird agree that this is very likely an Arctic Loon however,
we are not 100% certain and still could well be wrong.
Also, we have no information regarding timing of molt. It seems very odd
that this bird is in virtually full alternate plumage."
Any comments from folks familiar with these species would be appreciated.
JOHN

John C. Carlson
Zoology Program Manager
Montana Natural Heritage Program
P.O. Box 201800
1515 East Sixth Avenue
Helena, MT 59620-1800
(406) 444-3655
fax (406) 444-0581
jocarlson(AT)state.mt.us


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Subject: Montana Pacific/Arctic Loon
From: "Carlson, John" <jocarlson(AT)STATE.MT.US>
Date: 25 Nov 2002 9:32am

Hello,
It appears that the photo I referenced in my earlier email has been removed
from the website I directed people to. The observers would like to have the
entire package submitted to the Montana Rare Bird Committee first and then
have the committee solicited any outside comments. Any comments on the
description would still be appreciated. Thanks - JOHN

John C. Carlson
Zoology Program Manager
Montana Natural Heritage Program
P.O. Box 201800
1515 East Sixth Avenue
Helena, MT 59620-1800
(406) 444-3655
fax (406) 444-0581
jocarlson(AT)state.mt.us


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Subject: Pictures of Mangrove Swallow at Viera, FL
From: John H Boyd III <boydj(AT)FIU.EDU>
Date: 26 Nov 2002 9:47am

I've put 4 pictures of the Mangrove Swallow seen at Viera, FL on my
webpage.  You can find the first one at
http://ecojb.fiu.edu/birds/a32nov02.html, where there are links to the
other three.

If my understanding of the discussion is correct, you can see some of the
key field marks, including the fringes on the tertials (not just the
tips), the lack of significant tail fork, and of course the white rump.

More pictures may appear after I do some more scanning.  I'm not sure I
got any that show the white fringes on the inner secondaries (which were
present), and the light was too bad to show the bird's color.

--
John H. Boyd III                               boydj(AT)fiu.edu
Dept. of Economics                             Phone: 305-348-3287
Florida International University               Fax: 305-348-1524
Miami, FL 33199                                http://ecojb.fiu.edu/


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Subject: Near-albino Black-capped Chickadee in Nova Scotia
From: Blake Maybank <maybank(AT)NS.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 26 Nov 2002 10:16am

Russell Arnold, of Jeddore, Nova Scotia, Canada, has been hosting a mostly
complete albino Black-capped Chickadee at his feeder.  The bird has been
present for more than a year.  The degree of albinism in this individual
exceeds that previously recorded for the species, at least according to my
preliminary search of references.  The bird's longevity is also notable.

I've posted one of Russell's photos in the photo album of the Nova Scotia
Rare Bird Alert discussion group, NS-RBA:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NS-RBA/lst

Blake Maybank
White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada
maybank(AT)ns.sympatico.ca


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Subject: Gray vs. Great Blue Heron?
From: Ned Brinkley <Phoebetria(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 28 Nov 2002 7:32am

Yesterday at the tip of the Delmarva Peninsula (specifically, the east end of
the freshwater Ramp Road pond, at Eastern Shore of Virginia NWR), I studied
an adult _Ardea_ heron, almost certainly a Great Blue Heron, that appeared to
have the following characters:

1) squat, smallish body shape faintly recalling a night-heron when at rest;
2) rather short, light bill for a Great Blue;
3) rather short (for Great Blue) legs, with little leg past the tail/wings at
rest (just a few inches); the legs moreover were rather pale;
4) a complete lack of cinnamon tones in wing and thigh;
5) a contrastingly pale neck; the length of the neck appeared short as well.

What the bird appeared to lack for Gray Heron was the loral pattern (dark at
the eye, with an isolated pale patch anterior).  I know that others must have
encountered such a bird in North America, probably a small, pale Great Blue
adult, but this is my first one.  Has there been an ID-Frontiers discussion
of birds such as this one (and if so, could some kind soul please forward
it)?  Is there a "gold standard" for Gray Heron in terms of plumage (that is,
if the presence/absence of cinnamon feathers is not diagnostic), or must we
rely on subjective assessments of structure and a concert of "soft"
characters?

This bird flew off to the east after several minutes of study, and I could
not relocate it around the boat ramp east of the refuge.  It was at good
range for digiscoping, but not for my 400mm lens, unfortunately, so I have no
images to post.

Ned Brinkley
Cape Charles, Virginia USA


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Subject: Re: Gray vs. Great Blue Heron?
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 29 Nov 2002 8:00am

Having been shown a couple of Gray Herons in Barbados
and tutored on the fine points of identification by
Martin Frost and Edward Massiah, who routinely see
both species (including up to three Gray) there, I'm
amazed Gray Heron never turned up in North America
(unless we count Greenland) until one hitched a ride
on a ship to Newfoundland a few months ago. What is
the AOU/ABA policy for ship-assisted birds? From what
I understand, the British count ship-assisted birds as
long as they weren't fed by humans on the ship; to
their chagrin a couple of Great Blues arriving there
on ships were fed along the way. If two of the three
on the Newfoundland-bound ship starved to death, they
obviously weren't fed.

For those unaware, an excellent identification article
on the subject was recently published: Lethaby, N.,
and I. A. McLaren. 2002. The identification of Gray
Heron. Birding 34:24-33. It goes beyond a pioneering
article by: Gantlett, S. 1998. Identification of Great
Blue and Grey Heron. Birding World 11:12-20.

I scrutinized Great Blue Herons in Trinidad and Tobago
for years and saw several with tantalizing Gray-like
features, but only once stumbled across a genuine
immature Gray. A minority of Great Blues indeed appear
quite white in both the carpal area and thighs
(definitely NOT a "gold standard" for Gray), but I
don't recall seeing any with notably pale necks. And
some do seem a bit short-billed and short-necked, but
I don't recall any appearing notably short-legged.
However, NONE had ALL such features, which makes me
wonder if Ned's bird wasn't a Gray after all. I was
unaware of the distinctions in loral coloration until
I saw Lethaby and McLaren's article, which may well be
a "gold standard" but obviously needs more rigorous
assessment.

If there is a "gold standard" for plumage in Gray vs
Great Blue, I think it would have to be neck
coloration in adults (always paler in Gray) and crown
coloration in immatures (nearly always paler in Gray).
However, as Lethaby and McLaren point out (but don't
name), "Wurdemann's" Heron (hybrid Great Blue x Great
White) is similarly pale-necked (but structurally
Great Blue). I'd like to see more documentation on the
variability and abundance of "Wurdemann's" Heron (as
well as the Great White; the Birds of North America
account doesn't seem to cite any rigorous studies).
The forecrown of immature Gray of the western race
cinerea (expected to occur in western Atlantic) can be
very pale (paler, I think, than the illustration in
Lethaby and Mclaren's article), differing strikingly
from immature Great Blues, as in the birds I've seen
in Barbados and Trinidad; some photos (not the best)
are posted at:

http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/bagreyheron
     (photos by Martin Frost)
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttgreyheron

Finally, yet another twist is the Cocoi Heron of South
America, which closely resembles Gray in plumage
(whitish neck that is grayer in immatures, white
carpal patches and thighs) but is structurally similar
to Great Blue (long bill, neck and legs). All three
species have occurred in both Trinidad and Tobago and
have been seen by Davis Finch in Tobago on the same
day! Any claimed record of Gray in North America
should eliminate both "Wurdemann's" and Cocoi.

-Floyd

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Subject: Re: Gray vs. Great Blue Heron?
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 29 Nov 2002 4:20pm

For the record there is a good (not yet official accepted) Grey Heron
record for North America.  Several Octobers ago a 'Great Blue Heron' was
picked up alive but in a weakened state on the Newfoundland coast and
brought to a rehabilitation centre where it died a few days later.
(Details to be published soon.)  The specimen was sent to the Memorial
University of Newfoundland for students to use as a practice specimen
for making study skins!  About two months ago Martin Renner was looking
through the university bird collection and noticed the heron and was
immediately suspicious of the identity.  Measurements and plumage
confirmed it as a Grey Heron.  The record is yet to be submitted to a
committee outside of Newfoundland.  Coincidental, one week after
Renner's discovery of the Grey Heron specimen, we received word of three
heron-like birds that landed on an oil tanker 950 miles east of
Newfoundland.  We eagerly awaited the ship's arrival in Newfoundland.  I
went aboard the tanker, anchored two miles offshore. Two herons had
died, one carcass was thrown over board at sea and the one thrown in a
garbage bag.  The other was still very alive and feisty.  While it
looked like a Grey Heron because of the dull cap, pale grey neck, crisp
black neck marks, white leading edge to wing, short neck and small size
I wanted to see the thighs. I couldn't see them. Except when lunging at
me during the capture, the bird was in resting pose and the thighs were
not visible. It ended up in my bathroom for two days before dieing.
While at rest the thighs were never visible. I had it in my possession
for several hours before I saw the white thighs.  This happened when it
scrambled over the edge of the bathtub. Interestingly this bird and the
dead bird had a beautiful large clear pale yellow rectangle in the
lores.  This is the mark mentioned in the 2002 Birding article by
Lethaby, N.,and I. A. McLaren. My research of a limited number of photos
of immature Grey and Great Blue Herons in books and my own collection
support this as a good mark for separating Grey from Great Blue.  Much
more research is needed before this can be considered a fool proof mark.

Part of the reason for this email is to state the difficulty in seeing
the thighs on Great Blue Herons and Grey Herons. When at rest it is
usually next to impossible. Be careful of the long whitish breast
feathers covering the thigh area of a Great Blue Heron.

Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu] On Behalf Of Ned Brinkley
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 11:03 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Gray vs. Great Blue Heron?

Yesterday at the tip of the Delmarva Peninsula (specifically, the east
end of
the freshwater Ramp Road pond, at Eastern Shore of Virginia NWR), I
studied
an adult _Ardea_ heron, almost certainly a Great Blue Heron, that
appeared to
have the following characters:

1) squat, smallish body shape faintly recalling a night-heron when at
rest;
2) rather short, light bill for a Great Blue;
3) rather short (for Great Blue) legs, with little leg past the
tail/wings at
rest (just a few inches); the legs moreover were rather pale;
4) a complete lack of cinnamon tones in wing and thigh;
5) a contrastingly pale neck; the length of the neck appeared short as
well.

What the bird appeared to lack for Gray Heron was the loral pattern
(dark at
the eye, with an isolated pale patch anterior).  I know that others must
have
encountered such a bird in North America, probably a small, pale Great
Blue
adult, but this is my first one.  Has there been an ID-Frontiers
discussion
of birds such as this one (and if so, could some kind soul please
forward
it)?  Is there a "gold standard" for Gray Heron in terms of plumage
(that is,
if the presence/absence of cinnamon feathers is not diagnostic), or must
we
rely on subjective assessments of structure and a concert of "soft"
characters?

This bird flew off to the east after several minutes of study, and I
could
not relocate it around the boat ramp east of the refuge.  It was at good
range for digiscoping, but not for my 400mm lens, unfortunately, so I
have no
images to post.

Ned Brinkley
Cape Charles, Virginia USA

Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu] On Behalf Of Ned Brinkley
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 11:03 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Gray vs. Great Blue Heron?

Yesterday at the tip of the Delmarva Peninsula (specifically, the east
end of
the freshwater Ramp Road pond, at Eastern Shore of Virginia NWR), I
studied
an adult _Ardea_ heron, almost certainly a Great Blue Heron, that
appeared to
have the following characters:

1) squat, smallish body shape faintly recalling a night-heron when at
rest;
2) rather short, light bill for a Great Blue;
3) rather short (for Great Blue) legs, with little leg past the
tail/wings at
rest (just a few inches); the legs moreover were rather pale;
4) a complete lack of cinnamon tones in wing and thigh;
5) a contrastingly pale neck; the length of the neck appeared short as
well.

What the bird appeared to lack for Gray Heron was the loral pattern
(dark at
the eye, with an isolated pale patch anterior).  I know that others must
have
encountered such a bird in North America, probably a small, pale Great
Blue
adult, but this is my first one.  Has there been an ID-Frontiers
discussion
of birds such as this one (and if so, could some kind soul please
forward
it)?  Is there a "gold standard" for Gray Heron in terms of plumage
(that is,
if the presence/absence of cinnamon feathers is not diagnostic), or must
we
rely on subjective assessments of structure and a concert of "soft"
characters?

This bird flew off to the east after several minutes of study, and I
could
not relocate it around the boat ramp east of the refuge.  It was at good
range for digiscoping, but not for my 400mm lens, unfortunately, so I
have no
images to post.

Ned Brinkley
Cape Charles, Virginia USA


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Subject: RFH: have GWGU genes reached Texas?
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 30 Nov 2002 5:56am

Dear All,
I'd really appreciate help with the latest interesting Gull from my local
landfill:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp25.html
- It looked like a giant Thayer's Gull at first, but I suspect GWGU x HERG
for this bugger.  GWGU has never been documented in Texas.
Thanks,.
Martin

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Gray vs. Great Blue Heron?
From: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 30 Nov 2002 12:34pm

There is also a published report of an Alaskan Gray Heron sighting on St.
Paul Island in the Pribiloffs. The account was published in Western Birds
32(1) 88:90. The title of the note is "First report of the Gray Heron in
the United States." The authors are Kenneth M. Barton and Sean D. Smith.
Unfortunately, the bird was not photographed and Alaska does not accept
"first" records without specimens or photos. The date of the sighting was
August 1, 1999.

Phil

At 19:50 11/29/2002 -03-30, Bruce Mactavish wrote:
>For the record there is a good (not yet official accepted) Grey Heron
>record for North America.

==================================
Phil Davis      Davidsonville, Maryland     USA
                 mailto:PDavis(AT)ix.netcom.com
==================================


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Subject: Re: RFH: have GWGU genes reached Texas?
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 30 Nov 2002 3:33pm

The tail band is narrow for Thayer's Gull, but other wise it looks a lot
like one.   The small jet black bill, dark around the eye, petite head
relative to body size fit Thayer's and would go against Herring and
Glaucous-winged which should have hefty bills and big solid heads.
Another possible hybrid combination is Herring Gull x Glaucous Gull
hybrid.  The dump in Inuvik, Northwest Territories host many Glaucous x
Herring Gull hybrids, up to 10% of the gulls present. Adults and
juveniles come in many varieties indicating endless backcrossing.  A not
too infrequent juvenile combo looks very much like the bird that Martin
photographed - a Herring Gull with washed out tertials and dull brown
primaries.

Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 9:28 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] RFH: have GWGU genes reached Texas?

Dear All,
I'd really appreciate help with the latest interesting Gull from my
local
landfill:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp25.html
- It looked like a giant Thayer's Gull at first, but I suspect GWGU x
HERG
for this bugger.  GWGU has never been documented in Texas.
Thanks,.
Martin

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: RFH: have GWGU genes reached Texas?
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 30 Nov 2002 5:00pm

I think this is a decent candidate for a Herring x Glaucous-winged,
although I don't know how you would be sure. My experience is that
a good percentage of Herring x G-w have a somewhat proportionatly
small look to the head (a G-w trait), and some can have relatively
small bills. Herring x G-w would be my first thought if I saw this here
on the west coast, although I think the flat head shape with the crown
peak towards the rear, along with the fairly long primary extension at
least suggests that it's (at least) mostly Herring.

The head shape, leg length and color, amount of dark on the underside
of the outer primaries, muddy, low contrast look to the inner webs of the
outer primaries contrasting noticeably with the brighter window of the inner
primaries, and apparent minimal primary/tertial contrast, along with
the size and behavior described by Martin presumably rule out a (muddy)
Thayer's-type.

I know fine latitudinal barring is a feature of the markings on the breast
of basic adult G-w, haven't looked at this on juvenile G-w or Herring
enough to comment, but it is interesting. It goes without saying that
a Herring showing introgression with Glaucous, or even just an
unusually pale Herring would be exponentially more likely than
a Herring x G-w, but who knows.

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com

Dear All,
I'd really appreciate help with the latest interesting Gull from my local
landfill:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp25.html
- It looked like a giant Thayer's Gull at first, but I suspect GWGU x HERG
for this bugger.  GWGU has never been documented in Texas.
Thanks,.
Martin