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ID-FRONTIERS for December 1-7, 2002
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| ID of Hermit & Heto (Hermit x Townsend's)
Warblers | Angus Wilson | Sun, 1 Dec 2002 | 7:46pm |
| Gull taxonomy | Ian Paulsen | Mon, 2 Dec 2002 | 10:07pm |
| Unusual heron in New Zealand | Ross Silcock | Mon, 2 Dec 2002 | 10:31pm |
| R: Unusual heron in New Zealand | Menotti Passarella | Tue, 3 Dec 2002 | 12:53am |
| A challenging bird | Michel Bertrand | Tue, 3 Dec 2002 | 8:40am |
| Re: Gull taxonomy | Ellen en Rik | Tue, 3 Dec 2002 | 1:14pm |
| FW: Christmas Count dates | Bruce Mactavish | Tue, 3 Dec 2002 | 2:53pm |
| Re: Gull taxonomy | Nick Rossiter | Tue, 3 Dec 2002 | 4:20pm |
| Martin's Buteo | Kenn Kaufman | Tue, 3 Dec 2002 | 10:18pm |
| Re: Martin's Buteo | Carlson, John | Wed, 4 Dec 2002 | 9:08am |
| Re: Gull taxonomy | Norman D.van Swelm | Wed, 4 Dec 2002 | 1:27pm |
| Probable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia | Ned Brinkley | Wed, 4 Dec 2002 | 1:31pm |
| Problem Pluvialis! | Tristan Reid | Wed, 4 Dec 2002 | 2:15pm |
| Re: Probable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia | Kimball Garrett | Wed, 4 Dec 2002 | 4:22pm |
| Re: Probable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia | Mike Patterson | Wed, 4 Dec 2002 | 4:42pm |
| Re: Probable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia | Cliff and Lisa Weiss | Wed, 4 Dec 2002 | 4:49pm |
| Re: Probable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia | Kenn Kaufman | Wed, 4 Dec 2002 | 8:00pm |
| Virginia VGSW | Gavin Bieber | Thu, 5 Dec 2002 | 12:01am |
| VG Swallow/Tree Swallow | Steven Mlodinow | Thu, 5 Dec 2002 | 3:52pm |
| Re: IMprobable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia | Ned Brinkley | Fri, 6 Dec 2002 | 6:14am |
| Hawk ID Challenge Answer | Gary Rosenberg | Sat, 7 Dec 2002 | 2:23pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: ID of Hermit & Heto (Hermit x Townsend's)
Warblers
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 1 Dec 2002 7:46pm
On Friday 28 November 2002, Andrew Block discovered a very interesting
_Dendroica_ warbler on Jones Beach State Park, Long Island, New York. The bird
was still present today (Sunday 31 Nov. 2002) and has been studied by many
local birders.
Although tentatively identified as a Hermit Warbler, several features suggest a
Hermit x Townsend's hybrid (so-called 'Heto Warbler'). I have posted some
pictures on my web site together with some preliminary comments. More will be
added to the text over the next few days.
http://www.oceanwanderers.com/HermWarbNY02.html
Excellent digiscoped pictures have also been posted by Seth Ausubel
http://home.nyc.rr.com/sausubel/page2.html
At this point, I am unsure of the age and sex of the bird and imagine this will
have significant bearing on the final identification. Comments on the aging of
this individual would be extremely helpful.
Hermit Warbler has not been recorded in New York nor has a proven hybrid.
Needless to say, there is a lot of local interest in this spectacular bird!
We would be interested in comments on the ID, sex and aging as well as links or
references to photographs of similar birds.
Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City
http://www.oceanwanderers.com
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Gull taxonomy
From: Ian Paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)KRL.ORG>
Date: 2 Dec 2002 10:07pm
HI ALL:
I was looking at the latest checklist update of Clements' world checklist
at www.ibispub.com and noticed he splits the Herring Gull into several
species following this article from Dutch Birding: Systematics of L.
argentatus-cachinnans-fuscus complex revisted. Those found in North
America are:
American Herring Gull (Larus smithsonianus)
European Herring Gull (L. argentatus)
East Siberia Gull (L. vegae)
Has anyone seen this Dutch Birding article and what do you think of it?
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)krl.org
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Unusual heron in New Zealand
From: Ross Silcock <silcock(AT)HEARTLAND.NET>
Date: 2 Dec 2002 10:31pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all:
A heron/egret was photographed recently with Cattle Egrets in New =
Zealand. Identification of this dark bird is unsettled. I would =
appreciate opinions! I'll pass anything I receive on to my fellow =
Kiwis!
URL is http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/eco-vist/hotoffpress2.htm
Thanks!
Ross
Ross Silcock
Tabor, Iowa, USA
silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com
New Zealand Land and Pelagic Tours
www.rosssilcock.com
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: R: Unusual heron in New Zealand
From: Menotti Passarella <menotti.passarella(AT)LIBERO.IT>
Date: 3 Dec 2002 12:53am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all.
According to me the bird shows all the features of the Oriental Cattle =
Egret (Bubulcus ibis coromandus), except for the main colour !
Dark phase Cattle Egret ? Oiled Cattle Egret ?
Cheers
Menotti Passarella
Italy
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ross Silcock=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 6:31 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Unusual heron in New Zealand
=20
Hi all:
A heron/egret was photographed recently with Cattle Egrets in New =
Zealand. Identification of this dark bird is unsettled. I would =
appreciate opinions! I'll pass anything I receive on to my fellow =
Kiwis!
URL is http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/eco-vist/hotoffpress2.htm
Thanks!
Ross
=20
=20
Ross Silcock
Tabor, Iowa, USA
silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com
New Zealand Land and Pelagic Tours
www.rosssilcock.com
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: A challenging bird
From: Michel Bertrand <bertrmi(AT)COLBA.NET>
Date: 3 Dec 2002 8:40am
Hi,
I'm glad to receive answers from all over the World to the QuébecOiseaux
quiz.
Quiz 25 is now on QuébecOiseaux quiz webpage at
http://www.quebecoiseaux.qc.ca/HTML/Defi.html
A mystery bird that will puzzle many of those who will look at it. Even if
you have the magazine, you should take a look at the webpage for a better
view at a larger image.
For those who could have a problem in understanding the French text at the
website, here is a translation. I hope you will try to identify the quiz
bird and I will like very much to receive me your answer (for sure, you can
answer in English). Please don't include my message when replying. And don't
forget your postal address to have a chance to win one of the prizes.
DÉFI 25 (translation of the website text) :
This bird, a newcomer in your backyard, forage on the ground and act in a
fearful way, retreating in the hedge or in a bush everytime you move even a
bit. Here it is, in the open, for a moment. Which is this bird? Why?
Send your answer not later than January 5 to Michel Bertrand, 900 rue des
Paysans, Sainte-Julie, Qc, Canada (J3E 1K7) or, by e-mail, to
bertrmi(AT)colba.net . When answering, don't forget to include your complete
name and postal address (it's a rule to make you eligible for the draws).
Three one year subscriptions to the magazine QuébecOiseaux (or a
prolongation of your current subscription) which will be drawn among the
people who will have identified the bird correctly. And more: the Editor
Michel Quintin offers a copy of the field guide "Oiseaux du Québec et des
Maritimes" which will be also drawn among the people who will answer
correctly.
-----------------------
Answer to quiz 24
The former quiz bird was a male Scarlet Tanager in basic plumage (Piranga
olivacea, Tangara écarlate). See the current issue of QuébecOiseaux for
detailed text on its identification.
Here are the winners of the quiz 24. The three subsciptions to QuébecOiseaux
have been won by Julie Dionne from Sainte-Catherine, Anne Hamel from
Saint-Hilaire and Réjane Lapointe from Chicoutimi. The Paquin & Caron field
guide has gone to Rachel Latreille from Salaberry-de-Valleyfield.
Good luck ! Have fun...
MICHEL BERTRAND
Sainte-Julie, Qc
bertrmi(AT)colba.net
-----------------------
ORIGINAL FRENCH MESSAGE :
Bonjour,
Le Défi 25 de QuébecOiseaux est maintenant affiché au site Internet à :
http://www.quebecoiseaux.qc.ca/HTML/Defi.html
Un oiseau mystère qui ne sera pas évident pour tout le monde. Même ceux et
celles qui ont la revue auraient avantage à jeter un coup d'oeil à l'image
en plus grand format au site Internet.
Vous trouverez là, aussi, la réponse au Défi 24.
Identifiez le nouvel oiseau mystère et faites-moi parvenir votre réponse au
plus tard le 5 janvier en n'oubliant pas d'inclure votre nom complet et
votre adresse postale (c'est une règle pour être éligible pour les prix).
SVP, ne pas inclure le présent message avec votre réponse.
Voici les noms des gagnants du Défi 24. Les trois abonnements à
QuébecOiseaux ont été remportés par Julie Dionne de Sainte-Catherine, Anne
Hamel de Saint-Hilaire et Réjane Lapointe de Chicoutimi. Le guide Paquin et
Caron va à Rachel Latreille de Salaberry-de-Valleyfield.
Bonne chance...
MICHEL BERTRAND
Sainte-Julie, Qc
bertrmi(AT)colba.net
N'oubliez pas d'identifier l'oiseau mystère :
Don't forget to identify the mystery bird at :
http://www.quebecoiseaux.qc.ca/HTML/Defi.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Gull taxonomy
From: Ellen en Rik <gagel(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 3 Dec 2002 1:14pm
Hi Ian and others,
I presume you mean the article by Pierre Yésou (Dutch Birding
24(5):271-298). The argentatus/smithsonianus split is based on work on
genetics (Crochet 2002. Auk 119:603-620) which concluded that the taxa
involved are not closely related.
Rik Winters
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On Behalf Of Ian Paulsen
> Sent: dinsdag 3 december 2002 6:03
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Gull taxonomy
>
>
> HI ALL:
> I was looking at the latest checklist update of Clements' world checklist
> at www.ibispub.com and noticed he splits the Herring Gull into several
> species following this article from Dutch Birding: Systematics of L.
> argentatus-cachinnans-fuscus complex revisted. Those found in North
> America are:
> American Herring Gull (Larus smithsonianus)
> European Herring Gull (L. argentatus)
> East Siberia Gull (L. vegae)
>
> Has anyone seen this Dutch Birding article and what do you think of it?
>
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
> ipaulsen(AT)krl.org
> A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
> "Rallidae all the way"
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: FW: Christmas Count dates
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 3 Dec 2002 2:53pm
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Renner [mailto:h95mr(AT)mun.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:24 PM
To: Bruce Mactavish
Subject: Re: Christmas Count dates
Hi Bruce,
once again it looks like I'll miss the CBC in Newfoundland - will
head up north to Alaska on Dec 11 (this time to get married). I'll
count some Steller's Eiders up there instead. Will be back by late
February.
Cheers,
Martin
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Gull taxonomy
From: Nick Rossiter <nrossiter(AT)SUPANET.COM>
Date: 3 Dec 2002 4:20pm
The article is a significant step forward but I doubt whether all the
conclusions/opinions can be taken on board without further debate. I think
most gull people would accept the separation of Caspian Gull L. cachinnans
and Mediterranean Yellow-legged Gull L. michahellis as every genetic and
phenotypic study has been pointing in this direction. The proposal of
separating smithsonianus from argentatus appears to be based on one genetic
study and of course is in spite of the lack of phenotypic evidence as far as
adults are concerned. The separation of the eastern forms from cachinnans is
supported by the genetic work of Liebers et al. Phenotypic evidence
splitting the eastern forms themselves is weaker (at least judging from the
debate at International Gull Meetings when slides are shown of these
forms!). The definition of atlantis as being restricted only to the Azores
is based on misquotes from Dwight, the omission of Stegmann's work and on a
photo-essay.
The article seems to go for maximum splits using either genetic or
phenotypic evidence as available and perhaps some reflection (and more
studies) are needed before some re-classification is made.
Cheers ... Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)KRL.ORG>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:02 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Gull taxonomy
> HI ALL:
> I was looking at the latest checklist update of Clements' world checklist
> at www.ibispub.com and noticed he splits the Herring Gull into several
> species following this article from Dutch Birding: Systematics of L.
> argentatus-cachinnans-fuscus complex revisted. Those found in North
> America are:
> American Herring Gull (Larus smithsonianus)
> European Herring Gull (L. argentatus)
> East Siberia Gull (L. vegae)
>
> Has anyone seen this Dutch Birding article and what do you think of it?
>
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
> ipaulsen(AT)krl.org
> A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
> "Rallidae all the way"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Martin's Buteo
From: Kenn Kaufman <kennk(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 3 Dec 2002 10:18pm
If you haven't looked at the photos of the hybrid Buteo posted by Martin
Reid, they're definitely worth checking out. Martin has added some
stunning new photos to the site --
http://www.martinreid.com/Raptors3.html
Wheeler and Clark both support the idea that it's a hybrid, and that
certainly seems the most plausible explanation to me, on the basis of
what I can see in the photos. It would be great to read some detailed
analysis from those guys on exactly what points they find most
persuasive. I'd also be very interested to hear if someone on the list
disagrees with that diagnosis. In the meantime, congrats to Martin Reid
for detecting and documenting this bird.
Kenn Kaufman
Tucson, AZ
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Martin's Buteo
From: "Carlson, John" <jocarlson(AT)STATE.MT.US>
Date: 4 Dec 2002 9:08am
The bird in the photos that Martin has posted sure looks like a hybrid to
me, however on the website it states that "this is a hybrid - mostly a
Swainson's with a little bit of Rough-legged in it." From my perspective
(mid-winter in Montana with lots of rough-legs around) it looks more like a
Rough-leg with a little bit of Swainson's thrown in, especially the new
perched photos. I agree with Ken, I would also like to see an analysis on
the ID.
John C. Carlson
Zoology Program Manager
Montana Natural Heritage Program
P.O. Box 201800
1515 East Sixth Avenue
Helena, MT 59620-1800
(406) 444-3655
fax (406) 444-0581
jocarlson(AT)state.mt.us
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Gull taxonomy
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 4 Dec 2002 1:27pm
Nick Rossiter wrote:> > The article is a significant step forward but I
doubt whether all the
> conclusions/opinions can be taken on board without further debate. I think
> most gull people would accept the separation of Caspian Gull L. cachinnans
> and Mediterranean Yellow-legged Gull L. michahellis as every genetic and
> phenotypic study has been pointing in this direction. The proposal of
> separating smithsonianus from argentatus appears to be based on one
genetic
> study and of course is in spite of the lack of phenotypic evidence as far
as
> adults are concerned. The separation of the eastern forms from cachinnans
is
> supported by the genetic work of Liebers et al. Phenotypic evidence
> splitting the eastern forms themselves is weaker (at least judging from
the
> debate at International Gull Meetings when slides are shown of these
> forms!). The definition of atlantis as being restricted only to the Azores
> is based on misquotes from Dwight, the omission of Stegmann's work and on
a
> photo-essay.
>
> The article seems to go for maximum splits using either genetic or
> phenotypic evidence as available and perhaps some reflection (and more
> studies) are needed before some re-classification is made.<
Genetic studies as cited by Rik Winters and others are relatively new to
science. There is an ungoing and rapid development in the statistics that
are being used in genetic studies. A range of new articles will be published
soon. As for gulls it is clear from DNA studies that they are a relatively
young group and it could be argued for the large gulls of the northern
hemisphere that only one species exists! On the other hand the human eye
sees measurable differences between and among gull populations that cannot
be detected (yet) by genetic studies although these differences have
undisputedly a genetic basis. The differences the eye can see reflect an
ongoing evolutionary process in gulls and therefore deserve close attention.
For example, genetics have revealed close relationships among the
yellow-legged gulls of Mediterranean and the Atlantic as far as the maternal
ancestral line is concerned but it has not (so far) been able to detect the
different populations that can be detected by the human eye and simple
measurements. Therefore I propose to keep genetic findings and good old
Biological Species Concept studies separate from one another.
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Probable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia
From: Ned Brinkley <Phoebetria(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 4 Dec 2002 1:31pm
I am somewhat embarrassed to be asking for assistance with a basic
bread-and-butter bird such as Violet-green Swallow, but it's not a species
I've paid a great deal of attention to in recent years.
Late last month, several of us photographed a bird we felt reasonably certain
could be a Violet-green, in a large flock of swallows that held over 100
Tree, 4 Cave, and singles of Cliff, Bank, and Northern Rough-winged; the
location was Townsend, Virginia, on the Eastern Shore. Though the length of
the wings (relative to the tip of the tail) and the facial pattern seemed
rather perfect for the species, the emerald of the back was not as powerfully
different from the many Tree Swallows as I had anticipated it should be, and
the white flank/rump sides, though more extensive than on the Tree Swallows,
seemed a bit less than I remember from Violet-greens out West.
I've posted scans of the slides we took (at
<http://www.sterling-inn.com/Violet-green.html>, but the scans (done on my
old flatbed scanner!) didn't do too well! So I don't know if these will be
sufficient for people with comparative experience of Tree and Violet-green to
comment. But I'd appreciate any feedback y'all might have.
Merry CBCs,
Ned Brinkley
Cape Charles, Virginia, USA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Problem Pluvialis!
From: Tristan Reid <great.snipe(AT)VIRGIN.NET>
Date: 4 Dec 2002 2:15pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi=20
I have images of a juvenile 'Lesser' Golden Plover that I am having =
slight problems with!
The bird was found on the inner Solway (Cumbria UK). The general =
structure, ground colour, primary length, tertial length, tibia length =
and underwing colouration are in my opinion good for American Golden =
Plover. The bird also showed a darkish cap contrasting with the pale =
supercillium. The main thing that goes against this bird being AGP is =
the 'open faced' appearance that I would usually have associated with =
Pacific Golden Plover.
I can email some of the images to individuals privately if anyone is =
willing to assist me!=20
If you can help please email me (tristan(AT)solwaybirder.org.uk)=20
Regards
Tristan Reid
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Probable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia
From: Kimball Garrett <kgarrett(AT)NHM.ORG>
Date: 4 Dec 2002 4:22pm
Ned:
Since you asked for comments on your swallow, here are some
impressions of the photos (quite grainy and with poor color on my monitor)
and accompanying description.
Obviously the bird bears a strong superficial resemblance to a
Violet-green and may indeed be one; but as you note, a leucistic Tree
Swallow could show a similar facial pattern.
>"The bird was a bit more delicate or slender that the Trees, it seemed,
but neither Brenda nor myself could say with complete certainly that >it
looked *consistently* smaller. With birds constantly in motion in the air,
it was tough to judge relative size, but structural differences >seemed
consistently evident. The bird was an adult, with green-glossed back,
certainly consistent with Violet-green, but the color didn't >show a
startling difference from the Tree Swallows' back; it might have been a
more golden-casted green in places, and it was somewhat >complex (showing
different sheens) at some angles, but it wasn't the emerald or pool-table
green one usually associates with male Violet->green. However, Brenda's
perception in the field was different from mine. She writes: "As to the
back color, there were only a few split->second occasions when the green
looked to be a 'different' iridescent green from the blue/green of the
Tree, and it seemed to be confined to >a narrow section along center of
back, seen only as the bird was flying away from us. The green reminded me
of the green on Jardine's >Parrot."
In direct comparison, Violet-greens (to me) look noticeably
smaller and shorter-winged than Tree Swallows, so I'm surprised by the
comments (below) about the long wing tip projection beyond the tail (unless
this can be entirely explained by the Violet-green's relatively shorter
tail). The flight of Violet-green is more fluttery, with less of a
swept-back wingbeat.
Regarding back color, there is no gloss on a Violet-green -- it's
a felt-like quality, with no gloss; and the color is far different from
just a slightly more green version of a Tree Swallow's blue/green
gloss. This part of the description alone makes me worry that the bird was
"just" an odd leucistic Tree Swallow. Sorry, not enough Jardine's Parrots
flying around L. A. (surprisingly) for me to grasp that comparison.
>"Finally, the white wrapping up around the flanks onto the rump was
sufficiently pronounced to suggest Violet-green, but not quite as much >as
I associate with the Violet-greens I see in Mexico and in the West. The
white here was more extensive than the Tree Swallows', but it did >not
nearly meet at the center of the rump or lower back. I wonder if there is
any variation in this feature in Violet-green, or whether the >arrangement
of these feathers is subject to any influences of molt or muscular
activity. Certainly, the Tree Swallows around with it show >quite a bit of
apparent difference in this character."
The angles of the photos don't show me anything diagnostically
different from a Tree with some white wrapping onto the sides of the rump;
Violet-green's pattern here will of course vary with the angle of
observation and among individuals, but with prolonged views should always
appear as white lateral patches with only a thin dark area down the center
of the rump.
>Second, the bird's overall structure, if not absolute size, appeared
distinctive. When held closely to the body and swept back, the
wingtips >projected beyond the tail's tip by a distance of at least half
the cephalic projection (the length of the head/neck past the leading edge
of the >wings), and possibly more. Because all the birds were actively
feeding (and because we opted to photograph the bird as much as to study
it >closely), this is a rough estimation. Sibley's guide to North American
Birds (2000) indicates that long wings projecting past the tail
are >diagnostic for Violet-green.
See above -- no matter what the apparent projection of wing tip
beyond tail tip (surely a chore to assess in flight), Violet-greens should
look short-winged and short-tailed.
Hope this is of some use,
-- Kimball
*****************************************************
Kimball L. Garrett
Ornithology Collections Manager
Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
900 Exposition Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90007 USA
213-763-3368
213-746-2999 FAX
kgarrett(AT)nhm.org
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Probable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 4 Dec 2002 4:42pm
I think this is one of those "you can't get there from here"
situations. The photos don't show enough diagnostic detail
to eliminate "funny looking Tree Swallow". If fact the shape
looks very much like Tree Swallow and image 3 appears to show
a Tree Swallow sheen on the back.
And while the face is definitely white, it's not really
right for a normal VeeGee which usually doesn't have white
all the way around the eye.
Ned Brinkley wrote:
>
> I am somewhat embarrassed to be asking for assistance with a basic
> bread-and-butter bird such as Violet-green Swallow, but it's not a species
> I've paid a great deal of attention to in recent years.
>
> Late last month, several of us photographed a bird we felt reasonably certain
> could be a Violet-green, in a large flock of swallows that held over 100
> Tree, 4 Cave, and singles of Cliff, Bank, and Northern Rough-winged; the
> location was Townsend, Virginia, on the Eastern Shore. Though the length of
> the wings (relative to the tip of the tail) and the facial pattern seemed
> rather perfect for the species, the emerald of the back was not as powerfully
> different from the many Tree Swallows as I had anticipated it should be, and
> the white flank/rump sides, though more extensive than on the Tree Swallows,
> seemed a bit less than I remember from Violet-greens out West.
>
> I've posted scans of the slides we took (at
> <http://www.sterling-inn.com/Violet-green.html>, but the scans (done on my
> old flatbed scanner!) didn't do too well! So I don't know if these will be
> sufficient for people with comparative experience of Tree and Violet-green to
> comment. But I'd appreciate any feedback y'all might have.
>
> Merry CBCs,
> Ned Brinkley
> Cape Charles, Virginia, USA
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
A child who becomes acquainted with the birds about him
hears every sound and puzzles out its meaning with a cleverness
that amazes those with ears who hear not.
-Neltje Blanchan
http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Probable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia
From: Cliff and Lisa Weisse <october(AT)IDA.NET>
Date: 4 Dec 2002 4:49pm
The way the html code for the page containing the photos of
this bird is written causes the images at to display at 100%
of the size of the browser window. For better quality save
them to your hard drive and open them again. They are
better than they first appear.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimball Garrett" <kgarrett(AT)NHM.ORG>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Probable Violet-green Swallow in
Virginia
| Ned:
|
| Since you asked for comments on your swallow,
here are some
| impressions of the photos (quite grainy and with poor
color on my monitor)
| and accompanying description.
|
| Obviously the bird bears a strong superficial
resemblance to a
| Violet-green and may indeed be one; but as you note, a
leucistic Tree
| Swallow could show a similar facial pattern.
|
| >"The bird was a bit more delicate or slender that the
Trees, it seemed,
| but neither Brenda nor myself could say with complete
certainly that >it
| looked *consistently* smaller. With birds constantly in
motion in the air,
| it was tough to judge relative size, but structural
differences >seemed
| consistently evident. The bird was an adult, with
green-glossed back,
| certainly consistent with Violet-green, but the color
didn't >show a
| startling difference from the Tree Swallows' back; it
might have been a
| more golden-casted green in places, and it was somewhat
>complex (showing
| different sheens) at some angles, but it wasn't the
emerald or pool-table
| green one usually associates with male Violet->green.
However, Brenda's
| perception in the field was different from mine. She
writes: "As to the
| back color, there were only a few split->second occasions
when the green
| looked to be a 'different' iridescent green from the
blue/green of the
| Tree, and it seemed to be confined to >a narrow section
along center of
| back, seen only as the bird was flying away from us. The
green reminded me
| of the green on Jardine's >Parrot."
|
| In direct comparison, Violet-greens (to me) look
noticeably
| smaller and shorter-winged than Tree Swallows, so I'm
surprised by the
| comments (below) about the long wing tip projection beyond
the tail (unless
| this can be entirely explained by the Violet-green's
relatively shorter
| tail). The flight of Violet-green is more fluttery, with
less of a
| swept-back wingbeat.
|
| Regarding back color, there is no gloss on a
Violet-green -- it's
| a felt-like quality, with no gloss; and the color is far
different from
| just a slightly more green version of a Tree Swallow's
blue/green
| gloss. This part of the description alone makes me worry
that the bird was
| "just" an odd leucistic Tree Swallow. Sorry, not enough
Jardine's Parrots
| flying around L. A. (surprisingly) for me to grasp that
comparison.
|
| >"Finally, the white wrapping up around the flanks onto
the rump was
| sufficiently pronounced to suggest Violet-green, but not
quite as much >as
| I associate with the Violet-greens I see in Mexico and in
the West. The
| white here was more extensive than the Tree Swallows', but
it did >not
| nearly meet at the center of the rump or lower back. I
wonder if there is
| any variation in this feature in Violet-green, or whether
the >arrangement
| of these feathers is subject to any influences of molt or
muscular
| activity. Certainly, the Tree Swallows around with it show
>quite a bit of
| apparent difference in this character."
|
| The angles of the photos don't show me anything
diagnostically
| different from a Tree with some white wrapping onto the
sides of the rump;
| Violet-green's pattern here will of course vary with the
angle of
| observation and among individuals, but with prolonged
views should always
| appear as white lateral patches with only a thin dark area
down the center
| of the rump.
|
| >Second, the bird's overall structure, if not absolute
size, appeared
| distinctive. When held closely to the body and swept back,
the
| wingtips >projected beyond the tail's tip by a distance of
at least half
| the cephalic projection (the length of the head/neck past
the leading edge
| of the >wings), and possibly more. Because all the birds
were actively
| feeding (and because we opted to photograph the bird as
much as to study
| it >closely), this is a rough estimation. Sibley's guide
to North American
| Birds (2000) indicates that long wings projecting past the
tail
| are >diagnostic for Violet-green.
|
| See above -- no matter what the apparent
projection of wing tip
| beyond tail tip (surely a chore to assess in flight),
Violet-greens should
| look short-winged and short-tailed.
|
| Hope this is of some use,
|
| -- Kimball
|
|
| *****************************************************
| Kimball L. Garrett
| Ornithology Collections Manager
| Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
| 900 Exposition Blvd.
| Los Angeles, CA 90007 USA
| 213-763-3368
| 213-746-2999 FAX
| kgarrett(AT)nhm.org
|
|
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Subject: Re: Probable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia
From: Kenn Kaufman <kennk(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 4 Dec 2002 8:00pm
Certainly an interesting-looking bird. I would echo the points that
Kimball made about overall shape and about (lack of) iridescence on the
back. To amplify a little on what Mike Patterson said about face
pattern -- something that bothers me in what I can see of these photos is
that the bird appears to have some obvious white extending up from the
throat to the area between the eye and the bill. In my experience it's
very consistent for Violet-greens to look solidly dark from the forehead
down to the level of the gape, and from there back to (or almost to) the
eye. The area above and behind the eye may be strikingly white, but the
area in front of and slightly below the eye, down to the gape, should
look very dark. The photos of the Virginia bird don't seem right in this
regard.
Kenn Kaufman
Tucson, AZ
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Subject: Virginia VGSW
From: Gavin Bieber <kingbird77(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 5 Dec 2002 12:01am
I am not certain if any of these points have not been mentioned by others
already, but I thought, as a new member to this list, I would chime in on
this bird as well. There are a few points which trouble me about the
proposed Violet-green Swallow in Virginia. First and foremost in direct
comparison to Tree Swallows a VGSW should appear to be noticeably smaller,
with a more rapid wingbeat and a more compact body. The photographs seem
to show a fairly blocky swallow with deep wing bases a fairly long tail and
long wings, a better fit for Tree Swallow. The description of the back
color of this bird also troubled me. In sunlight the back color of VGSW
should be quite distinct from that of Tree, a dark emerald mixing with
purple irridescence compared to a tree's navy blue/green. When adult VGSW's
bank in good sunlight there shouldn't be any confusion or question that the
back color is different. Lastly as Kenn Kaufman pointed out the white in
the face of this bird seems to overreach what one would expect for TRES,
especially the white that extends in the lores. The question then is how
would a Tree Swallow show such characters (more white than typical on the
flanks, and such a striking white facial pattern)? Could a leucistic Tree
Swallow show abberant plumage in just these places? I have seen fully
leucistic and albanistic Barn Swallows and in both of these birds the
abberant colors were exhibited across the whole bird resulting in a very
faded Barn Swallow lacking red and blue tones in one case, and an almost
completely white bird in the other. Anyone have any thoughts on how this
particular swallow from Virginia came to be?
Gavin Bieber
Kingbird77(AT)hotmail.com
Tucson, AZ
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Subject: VG Swallow/Tree Swallow
From: Steven Mlodinow <SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 5 Dec 2002 3:52pm
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Greetings All
I certainly can not improve on the comments by Kenn and Kimball.
One possibility is that this bird is a hybrid. As a whole, I think we
(birders) tend to be too quick to label things hybrids (as opposed to
variation within a species). However, Tree and VG Swallows have been known to
hybridize, and such a bird might appear quite similar to the VA swallow.
Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
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Subject: Re: IMprobable Violet-green Swallow in Virginia
From: Ned Brinkley <Phoebetria(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 6 Dec 2002 6:14am
I think the swallow thread has wound down, as it were, and I wanted to thank
everyone for taking the time to look over the images and post comments, all
of which are in agreement that the bird, though interesting and unusual, is
structurally "off" for Violet-green and shows no character of plumage that
would (unambiguously) refer to that species. I have to say how very exciting
it is to be able to post images of this sort and receive such high-quality
comment within hours! This listserv is one of the most stimulating on the
Internet, I think.
I am intrigued by Steve Mlodinow's raising the question of a hybrid swallow
(which, I note in P. Pyle's 1997 Identification Guide to North American
Birds, have been documented between Tree and Violet-green -- does anyone have
any data, photos, or references on this?). Thanks again for the most
helpful comments -- I've posted most all of them to the website on which the
swallow appears, whose title now reads "Interesting swallow at Townsend"!
Best wishes for winter,
Ned Brinkley
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Subject: Hawk ID Challenge Answer
From: Gary Rosenberg <ghrosenberg(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 7 Dec 2002 2:23pm
Hi Everyone,
I have finally had a chance to go through all the guesses for the ID
Challenge I posted in November. I have written an answer that can be found
at the end of the challenge:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ghrosenberg/ID_Challenge/IDC1.html
Thanks to the nearly 50 birders who sent in their guesses/comments. I hope
that the quiz was informative - I sure learned a lot!
I'll try to post another quiz soon.
Good Birding,
Gary
--
Gary H. Rosenberg
Tucson, AZ
ghrosenberg(AT)comcast.net
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ghrosenberg/ArizonaBirdCommittee.html
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