ID-FRONTIERS for January 5-11, 2003

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: a dull legged. streaked headed Yellow-legged Gull in NF   Floyd Hayes    Sun, 5 Jan 2003   11:01am   (no subject)   James Barton    Sun, 5 Jan 2003   11:48am   Re: a dull legged. streaked headed Yellow-legged Gull in NF   Nick Rossiter    Sun, 5 Jan 2003   4:13pm   RE : a dull legged. streaked headed Yellow-legged Gull in NF   =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierr   Mon, 6 Jan 2003   9:00am   Female scuap undertail.   Joseph Morlan    Mon, 6 Jan 2003   9:32am   RE : a dull legged. streaked headed Yellow-legged Gull in NF   Bruce Mactavish    Mon, 6 Jan 2003   8:12pm   Re: RE : a dull legged. streaked headed Yellow-legged Gull in NF   Norman D.van Swelm   Tue, 7 Jan 2003   10:32am   Oriental Greenfinch in Ontario   Alan Wormington    Tue, 7 Jan 2003   12:45pm   (fwd) RE: Female scuap undertail.   Joseph Morlan    Tue, 7 Jan 2003   3:40pm   Wanapum loon pictures & brief discussion (fwd)   Ian Paulsen    Wed, 8 Jan 2003   2:56pm   Re: Wanapum loon pictures & brief discussion (fwd)   Kenn Kaufman    Wed, 8 Jan 2003   4:13pm   Puzzling branta-type goose from New York   Angus Wilson    Wed, 8 Jan 2003   5:02pm   Speaking of Geese   Brian Monk    Wed, 8 Jan 2003   10:08pm   Red-breasted Merganser   Floyd Hayes    Thu, 9 Jan 2003   3:44am   Hybrid hawk - update   Martin Reid    Fri, 10 Jan 2003   8:33am   GODWIT BILL COLOR/PATTERN   pabuckley    Fri, 10 Jan 2003   10:01am   Re: GODWIT BILL COLOR/PATTERN   Lethaby, Nick   Fri, 10 Jan 2003   1:26pm   Verdict on the Florida "Sharp-tailed Sandpiper"   Bill Pranty    Fri, 10 Jan 2003   6:58pm   A first El Salvador record for GWGU?   Tony Leukering    Sat, 11 Jan 2003   3:23pm   Re: A first El Salvador record for GWGU?   Phil Pickering    Sat, 11 Jan 2003   4:04pm

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Subject: Re: a dull legged. streaked headed Yellow-legged
         Gull in NF
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 5 Jan 2003 11:01am

I wonder if leg coloration wasn't brighter than it
appeared. Leg coloration is readily affected by
background coloration and can even be manipulated by
an observer. Years ago I recall positioning myself so
that my first Lesser Black-backed Gull (in Maryland)
simultaneously had a yellow leg (wooden post
background) and a pink leg (gray water background). I
trusted the former as being more accurate.

-Floyd

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Subject: (no subject)
From: James Barton <BrdBk(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 5 Jan 2003 11:48am

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     Kjell, in several views, your bird presents a projection at the rear of
 the head very reminiscent of Ring-necked Duck ..A. collaris..  As Joe Morlan
has noted, on  Lesser Scaup ..affinis.. the head comes to a (gentle) peak
near the eye.   On that character alone, I would  have to  doubt Lesser Scaup.
  There's more.

     The projection on collaris is a constant character, that is, it's
visible from many different angles.  The projection on your bird does not
appear in all views.  I'm wondering whether it might be a contribution from
Tufted  Duck ...fuligula...

     As has been noted, the head shape of your bird is difficult to
determine.  In several views, it suggest a combination of collaris and
Greater Scaup ...marila..  In one view, showing a sloping forehead and very
long bill, the head shape suggests Canvasback (!) ...valisineria.. or Common
Pochard ....ferina..  In short, the head shape of your bird suggest just
about any Aythya species except Lesser Scaup.

     Another problem is the size of the bill.  It's much too long and broad
for affinis, indeed, it looks big enough to qualify for Tufted Duck.
Proportionately, in addition, the bill is too big for the head to qualify for
affinis, a  very graceful bird, with a thinner, longer neck than marila,
considered in  relationship to the body. .

     The one character consistent with affinies that I can detect (I believe)
is that indigo on the bill is limited to the nail and extends back on the
bill  in a narrow line.

     I have very long experience with the U.S. ..Aythya.. sp on the Fresh
Pond Reservoir in Cambridge, MA, about 15 minutes form my house.  An
eight-foot chain link fence gives the ducks security, and gives birders the
opportunity to study  the U.S. Aythya species and occasionally Tufted Duck at
very close  range-- within 10 to 15 meters.

     On encountering your bird on Fresh Pond, , I would probably start by
considering fuligulaXmarila.  You have many other possibilities in Europe.

     On the basis of my long experience with affinis, I must respectfully
disagree with Joe Morlan on one point, namely, the coloration of the
undertail coverts on females  I have seen birds on Fresh Pond which were
affinis on all other  accounts, yet presented white undertail coverts.
Covert hybrids?.  Maybe,  but I don't think so.

     I have also encountered affinis with an indigo band extending across the
 tip of the bill; not a broad band, as in Tufted Duck, or an indigo band
followed by a white band, as in Ring-neck Duck, but a noticeable band
nonetheless.  On the other hand, the bill was narrow, not wide.  As I've
learned over the  years, intraspecific variation can be considerable.  Most
of it seems to go unnoted.

     Sorry to be so negative.  Good birding and .

     Best wishes,

Jim Barton
Cambridge, MA
redwing1986(AT)attbi.com
brdbk(AT)aol.com
US Coordinator - Proact in the Americas
campaigning for birds and their habitats, before it's too late
www.proactnow.org

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Subject: Re: a dull legged. streaked headed Yellow-legged
         Gull in NF
From: Nick Rossiter <nrossiter(AT)SUPANET.COM>
Date: 5 Jan 2003 4:13pm

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Yes, Bruce and Dick, I agree that this is an atlantis YLG. The structure =
is right with the large head, bold chest, short stubby bill, tail almost =
to P7, bunched primary tips (P10 just outside P9, P8 closer to P9 than =
P7) and short sturdy legs. The mantle shade is not as dark as some but =
maybe it's difficult to judge from the photos. It's not a michahellis =
structure. The placement of the fading head markings is also right for =
atlantis.=20

Re: origin

I would doubt that it's southern atlantis (Canaries, Atlantic Morocco). =
In Tenerife (Canaries) in late December all adults showed white heads =
and Brian Small found the same at Fuerteventura in January:

http://www.surfbirds.com/ID%20Articles/atlantisgulls.html

The northern forms -- Iberian atlantis and Azorean atlantis -- can show =
dusky heads through to spring and the legs of Iberian birds can become a =
nondescript pink-yellow colour (Azores unknown here?).=20

There's no obvious working difference between the published biometrics =
of the various atlantis forms. Interestingly though all atlantis forms =
differ significantly from michahellis in biometrics:

http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/available%20statistics%20biometrics.=
htm

A useful wingtip feature is the presence of a mirror on P9. This varies =
from 2-13% (depending on source) in Azorean atlantis to 22% in southern =
atlantis and 40% in Iberian atlantis.=20

http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/pairwise%20stats%20wingtip.htm

Obviously you cannot identify an individual bird on the P9 feature but =
if you get more records you may be starting to identify a likely source. =
Am I right in thinking that to date no North American atlantis has shown =
a mirror on P9?=20

We need more studies from September-March on the northern atlantis forms =
to be more confident of the head-streaking position.=20

Cheers . Nick

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bruce Mactavish=20
  To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu=20
  Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:36 PM
  Subject: [BIRDWG01] a dull legged. streaked headed Yellow-legged Gull =
in NF

  Here is a St. John's, Newfoundland gull that pushes the generally =
known Yellow-legged Gull identification envelope. =20

  =20

  http://stubird.dreamhost.com/YLGUSJNF010203BMA.jpg

  http://stubird.dreamhost.com/YLGUSJNF010203BMB.jpg

  =20

  =20

  It was photographed on January 2, 2003.  Two features that don't fit =
the widely accepted, though changing, ideas about Yellow-legged Gulls =
are the January head streaking and the dull yellow legs.  The legs in =
life were dull, definitely yellow with a vague greenish cast. No hint of =
pink or flesh colour. The digiscoped photo displays legs of a =
non-descript colour. I ask the Yellow-legged Gull experts out there - =
can Yellow-legged Gulls have dull yellow legs with a vague greenish =
cast?  The head streaking is an acceptable pattern being restricted to =
the head. There is a concentration of streaking around the eye and over =
the top of the head. From a couple 100 m the paler streaking on the nape =
was not visible leaving a forward dusky cap running up over the center =
of the crown. You can create the same affect by squinting your eyes at =
the photo of the bird on the ice.  This is a classic Yellow-legged Gull =
head streaking pattern.  Ten years ago the literature said Yellow-legged =
Gulls weren't allowed to have head streaking after September or at the =
latest October.  This may be true for michahellis but the Atlantic =
islands populations are known to hold the head streaking longer. The =
full extent of this feature is not clear, to me at least. It is =
complicated by isolated populations of Yellow-legged Gull from the =
Canaries to the Azores having different breeding cycles.  The Azorean =
Yellow-legged Gulls are thought to be the most heavily streaked on the =
head of all the Yellow-legged Gulls. The full seasonal extent of the =
Azorean Yellow-legged Gull winter streaking is poorly known, but head =
streaked individuals have been recorded at breeding sites in late March. =
The Azores is the closest source of Yellow-legged Gulls to Newfoundland =
- about two days away flying non stop at 35 mph. Autumn and winter =
storms are large enough to include southeast Newfoundland and the Azores =
in the same isobars.  I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this =
much head streaking in early January.

  =20

  Other features about the bird are classic in my view of Newfoundland =
Yellow-legged Gulls. A stubby bill, relatively thick and blunt, with a =
large red gonydeal spot (there is a small black crescent in the red).  =
The head shape in the relaxed position on the ice, when it could barely =
keep its eyes open, show the short steep forehead, fairly flat topped =
crown and steeply dropping nape. This head shape together with the bill =
produce a subtle look different from other gulls and is almost always =
noted on the Newfoundland Yellow-legged Gulls.  This shape can change =
with attitude as is exhibited by the more rounded head while swimming =
and actively bathing.  The orbital ring was thin and deep red. The iris =
was clear yellow slightly tinged olive.  There was a fairly large mirror =
in P10.  The shot of the under side of P10 makes is look like the =
subterminal bar is just breached. It was seen in flight when it flew =
from the ice to the water and later when it left the lake. There =
appeared to be a large mirror on P10 with a solid subterminal bar above =
and no mirror on P9. The large area of black on the upper side of the =
wing tip contrasted sharply with the grayer upper parts.  The wing shape =
was more HEGU-like than Lesser Black-backed Gull-like particularly in =
being broader at the base.  It was slightly smaller than the average =
HEGU with a similarly full chest shape.=20

  =20

  I think this a Yellow-legged Gull in full winter plumage. The heavy =
head streaking, dull yellow legs and small black crescent in red =
gonydeal spot indicate the state of plumage.  The legs are duller and =
there is more head streaking than any other Yellow-legged Gull we have =
claimed in Newfoundland.   It would be good to know the origin of this =
and other Newfoundland Yellow-legged Gulls.  Perhaps someone can help =
narrow down the possibilities.

  =20

  Jared Clarke and Ken Knowles were present for this bird.   Stuart =
Tingley provided space on his web site for the photos.

  =20

  =20

  Bruce Mactavish

  St. John's, Newfoundland

  Canada

  bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca

  =20

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Subject: RE : a dull legged. streaked headed
         Yellow-legged Gull in NF
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS-MOP.FR>
Date: 6 Jan 2003 9:00am

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Dear all,

=20

I just talked about Azorean gulls with J. Bried, a French birder who is =
now working at the University there and has a long interest in Atlantic =
YLG populations (having previously studied the Basques Country =
populations).

=20

He explained me that adults Azorean YLG loose the head streaks by =
November - December, and that now they are white-headed, with a bright =
yellow bill: they are in breeding conditions. So a streaked head in =
early January is apparently at odd even with Azorean breeders.

=20

Having said so, I do not have strong opinion on this particular bird, =
which look good for Atlantic YLG based on what can be seen on my =
computer, except that this leg colour is not common (even if possible) =
in fully adult YLG. I have to admit, though, that I have not looked =
carefully at leg colours in Atlantic YLG outside the breeding season.=20

=20

Best,

=20

Pierre-Andre

=20

=20

Pierre-Andr=E9 Crochet

CEFE-CNRS

1919, route de Mende

34293 Montpellier cedex 5

France

tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75

fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38

crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs-mop.fr <mailto:crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs-mop.fr>=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Bruce Mactavish [mailto:bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA]=20
Envoy=E9 : samedi 4 janvier 2003 00:36
=C0 : BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Objet : [BIRDWG01] a dull legged. streaked headed Yellow-legged Gull in =
NF

=20

Here is a St. John's, Newfoundland gull that pushes the generally known =
Yellow-legged Gull identification envelope. =20

=20

http://stubird.dreamhost.com/YLGUSJNF010203BMA.jpg

http://stubird.dreamhost.com/YLGUSJNF010203BMB.jpg

=20

=20

It was photographed on January 2, 2003.  Two features that don't fit the =
widely accepted, though changing, ideas about Yellow-legged Gulls are =
the January head streaking and the dull yellow legs.  The legs in life =
were dull, definitely yellow with a vague greenish cast. No hint of pink =
or flesh colour. The digiscoped photo displays legs of a non-descript =
colour. I ask the Yellow-legged Gull experts out there - can =
Yellow-legged Gulls have dull yellow legs with a vague greenish cast?  =
The head streaking is an acceptable pattern being restricted to the =
head. There is a concentration of streaking around the eye and over the =
top of the head. From a couple 100 m the paler streaking on the nape was =
not visible leaving a forward dusky cap running up over the center of =
the crown. You can create the same affect by squinting your eyes at the =
photo of the bird on the ice.  This is a classic Yellow-legged Gull head =
streaking pattern.  Ten years ago the literature said Yellow-legged =
Gulls weren't allowed to have head streaking after September or at the =
latest October.  This may be true for michahellis but the Atlantic =
islands populations are known to hold the head streaking longer. The =
full extent of this feature is not clear, to me at least. It is =
complicated by isolated populations of Yellow-legged Gull from the =
Canaries to the Azores having different breeding cycles.  The Azorean =
Yellow-legged Gulls are thought to be the most heavily streaked on the =
head of all the Yellow-legged Gulls. The full seasonal extent of the =
Azorean Yellow-legged Gull winter streaking is poorly known, but head =
streaked individuals have been recorded at breeding sites in late March. =
The Azores is the closest source of Yellow-legged Gulls to Newfoundland =
- about two days away flying non stop at 35 mph. Autumn and winter =
storms are large enough to include southeast Newfoundland and the Azores =
in the same isobars.  I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this =
much head streaking in early January.

=20

Other features about the bird are classic in my view of Newfoundland =
Yellow-legged Gulls. A stubby bill, relatively thick and blunt, with a =
large red gonydeal spot (there is a small black crescent in the red).  =
The head shape in the relaxed position on the ice, when it could barely =
keep its eyes open, show the short steep forehead, fairly flat topped =
crown and steeply dropping nape. This head shape together with the bill =
produce a subtle look different from other gulls and is almost always =
noted on the Newfoundland Yellow-legged Gulls.  This shape can change =
with attitude as is exhibited by the more rounded head while swimming =
and actively bathing.  The orbital ring was thin and deep red. The iris =
was clear yellow slightly tinged olive.  There was a fairly large mirror =
in P10.  The shot of the under side of P10 makes is look like the =
subterminal bar is just breached. It was seen in flight when it flew =
from the ice to the water and later when it left the lake. There =
appeared to be a large mirror on P10 with a solid subterminal bar above =
and no mirror on P9. The large area of black on the upper side of the =
wing tip contrasted sharply with the grayer upper parts.  The wing shape =
was more HEGU-like than Lesser Black-backed Gull-like particularly in =
being broader at the base.  It was slightly smaller than the average =
HEGU with a similarly full chest shape.=20

=20

I think this a Yellow-legged Gull in full winter plumage. The heavy head =
streaking, dull yellow legs and small black crescent in red gonydeal =
spot indicate the state of plumage.  The legs are duller and there is =
more head streaking than any other Yellow-legged Gull we have claimed in =
Newfoundland.   It would be good to know the origin of this and other =
Newfoundland Yellow-legged Gulls.  Perhaps someone can help narrow down =
the possibilities.

=20

Jared Clarke and Ken Knowles were present for this bird.   Stuart =
Tingley provided space on his web site for the photos.

=20

=20

Bruce Mactavish

St. John's, Newfoundland

Canada

bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca

=20

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Subject: Female scuap undertail.
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 6 Jan 2003 9:32am

On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:47:48 EST, James Barton <BrdBk(AT)AOL.COM> wrote:

>     On the basis of my long experience with affinis, I must respectfully
>disagree with Joe Morlan on one point, namely, the coloration of the
>undertail coverts on females  I have seen birds on Fresh Pond which were
>affinis on all other  accounts, yet presented white undertail coverts.
>Covert hybrids?.  Maybe,  but I don't think so.

I don't think we disagree on this.  What I actually said was:

"Whitish undertail coverts which is not normal on any scaup."

Perhaps that was a poor choice of words, but I do think that white
undertail coverts are the exception rather than the rule in scaup sp.  In
Tufted Duck the reverse is true.  Most female Tufted Ducks (especially
those with white faces) have white undertail coverts.

But you are correct that this character is variable.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
SF Spring Birding Classes - Feb 4 http://fog.ccsf.org/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/


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Subject: RE : a dull legged. streaked headed
         Yellow-legged Gull in NF
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 6 Jan 2003 8:12pm

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I=92d like to thank all who braved public comment on this gull of less
than straight forward identification. Others also responded privately.
There is only so much one can get from two photos of one bird where
shades of gray, tones of fleshy parts and subtle shapes of body parts
are key to identification, especially when the photos are digital
through a telescope in dark overcast light on the reflecting surfaces of
ice and water.  The advantages of seeing the bird in life are enormous.

=20
Two people suggested the possibility of a northern argentatus Herring
Gull. These birds are darker above than smithsonianus Herring Gulls and
can have yellowish legs. The apparent large white mirror visible on the
underside of P10 in the shot of the bird on the ice is I think partly a
distorted vision brought back to reality if you compare the amount of
white with the amount of black that is also visible on the underside of
P10.  In flight the size of the mirror on P10 looked reasonably
prominent but appeared to be separated from the white tip by a black
subterminal bar.  There was no visible mirror on P9. The large amount of
black in the wing tip area easily eliminates the possibility of
argentatus. Photos of northern argentatus give me impressions of large,
gangly necked, large billed birds different from the compact, tight
impression of the bird in question.
=20
Most people questioned the leg colour. On my home computer the legs look
an off pinkish.  In life there was no hint of pink or flesh colour.  The
legs were solid yellow, not a cast of yellow with a pink undertone as is
no too infrequent on smithsonianus Herring Gulls in spring.  The legs
were solid yellow, but a dingy yellow with a vague greenish hue. I
hesitate to compare with winter Common Gull, but the legs were somewhere
in that league.  In the article on Atlantic Islands Yellow-legged Gulls
by Phillipe Dubois in Birding World Vol 14 No 7, Dubois saw two
suspected atlantis Yellow-legged Gulls with =91pale pink legs=92 on the
Azores in August. Nick Rossiter says =93the legs of Iberian birds
(Yellow-legged Gulls) can become a nondescript pink-yellow colour=94.  =
The
point of this is that the legs of the bird in question are within limits
of Yellow-legged Gull.
=20
The head streaking pattern is somewhat misleading in the photos. From a
distance only the dark patch around the eye and over the crown was
visible which is a classic Yellow-legged Gull pattern. The less dense
streaking on the nape and lower cheek disappeared.  There are photos in
the Yellow-legged Gull literature that fit this. The shot of the bird on
the water give a false impression of uniform streaking over the whole
head.  Like I said in the original description if you squint your eyes
at the photo of the bird on the ice magically the common classic pattern
of a Yellow-legged Gull with good head streaking appears.=20
=20
Only two people mentioned the possibility of Lesser Black-backed Gull x
Herring Gull hybrid.  This has to be considered for any claim of
Yellow-legged Gull in North America.  The fine pattern of head streaking
doesn=92t really fit Lesser Black-backed Gull or Herring Gull.  The few
such hybrid suspects I=92ve seen in Newfoundland were Herring Gull-like =
in
structure with pale Lesser Black-backed Gull-like upperparts and
extensive head and neck streaking.=20
=20
The structure of the bird is very like most of the other Yellow-legged
Gulls (with white heads and yellow legs in winter) we=92ve had in
Newfoundland. The stubby bill, squared off head, full rounded chest, -
like a compact Herring Gull. I think this is the underlying important
feature in the identification of this bird. It is fairly certain some of
these are not michahellis because of smallish size and dark upper parts.
The Azores being so close to Newfoundland, 1500 miles from the most NE
Azorean island to the southeast corner of Newfoundland, was the obvious
first guess of origin. When this bird looses the winter head streaking
and the legs attain a brighter colour in breeding condition, it will
probably look like a perfect Yellow-legged Gull. =20
=20
This bird looks very similar to one we saw December 2000 =96 January =
2001.
There was no change in the head streaking when last seen in late
January. The local Herring Gulls drop head streaking mid February to
late March. Speculation is 20:20.  If a Yellow-legged Gull got used to
wintering in Newfoundland it might wait until later in the winter when
the temperatures warmed up to moult into breeding plumage. This would
still leave plenty of time to fly back to the Azores in time for the
breeding season in April.=20
=20
=20
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
=20
De : Bruce Mactavish [mailto:bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA]=20
Envoy=E9 : samedi 4 janvier 2003 00:36
=C0 : BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Objet : [BIRDWG01] a dull legged. streaked headed Yellow-legged Gull in
NF
=20
Here is a St. John=92s, Newfoundland gull that pushes the generally =
known
Yellow-legged Gull identification envelope. =20
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/YLGUSJNF010203BMA.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/YLGUSJNF010203BMB.jpg
=20
=20
It was photographed on January 2, 2003.  Two features that don=92t fit =
the
widely accepted, though changing, ideas about Yellow-legged Gulls are
the January head streaking and the dull yellow legs.  The legs in life
were dull, definitely yellow with a vague greenish cast. No hint of pink
or flesh colour. The digiscoped photo displays legs of a non-descript
colour. I ask the Yellow-legged Gull experts out there - can
Yellow-legged Gulls have dull yellow legs with a vague greenish cast?
The head streaking is an acceptable pattern being restricted to the
head. There is a concentration of streaking around the eye and over the
top of the head. From a couple 100 m the paler streaking on the nape was
not visible leaving a forward dusky cap running up over the center of
the crown. You can create the same affect by squinting your eyes at the
photo of the bird on the ice.  This is a classic Yellow-legged Gull head
streaking pattern.  Ten years ago the literature said Yellow-legged
Gulls weren=92t allowed to have head streaking after September or at the
latest October.  This may be true for michahellis but the Atlantic
islands populations are known to hold the head streaking longer. The
full extent of this feature is not clear, to me at least. It is
complicated by isolated populations of Yellow-legged Gull from the
Canaries to the Azores having different breeding cycles.  The Azorean
Yellow-legged Gulls are thought to be the most heavily streaked on the
head of all the Yellow-legged Gulls. The full seasonal extent of the
Azorean Yellow-legged Gull winter streaking is poorly known, but head
streaked individuals have been recorded at breeding sites in late March.
The Azores is the closest source of Yellow-legged Gulls to Newfoundland
=96 about two days away flying non stop at 35 mph. Autumn and winter
storms are large enough to include southeast Newfoundland and the Azores
in the same isobars.  I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this
much head streaking in early January.
=20
Other features about the bird are classic in my view of Newfoundland
Yellow-legged Gulls. A stubby bill, relatively thick and blunt, with a
large red gonydeal spot (there is a small black crescent in the red).
The head shape in the relaxed position on the ice, when it could barely
keep its eyes open, show the short steep forehead, fairly flat topped
crown and steeply dropping nape. This head shape together with the bill
produce a subtle look different from other gulls and is almost always
noted on the Newfoundland Yellow-legged Gulls.  This shape can change
with attitude as is exhibited by the more rounded head while swimming
and actively bathing.  The orbital ring was thin and deep red. The iris
was clear yellow slightly tinged olive.  There was a fairly large mirror
in P10.  The shot of the under side of P10 makes is look like the
subterminal bar is just breached. It was seen in flight when it flew
from the ice to the water and later when it left the lake. There
appeared to be a large mirror on P10 with a solid subterminal bar above
and no mirror on P9. The large area of black on the upper side of the
wing tip contrasted sharply with the grayer upper parts.  The wing shape
was more HEGU-like than Lesser Black-backed Gull-like particularly in
being broader at the base.  It was slightly smaller than the average
HEGU with a similarly full chest shape.=20
=20
I think this a Yellow-legged Gull in full winter plumage. The heavy head
streaking, dull yellow legs and small black crescent in red gonydeal
spot indicate the state of plumage.  The legs are duller and there is
more head streaking than any other Yellow-legged Gull we have claimed in
Newfoundland.   It would be good to know the origin of this and other
Newfoundland Yellow-legged Gulls.  Perhaps someone can help narrow down
the possibilities.
=20
Jared Clarke and Ken Knowles were present for this bird.   Stuart
Tingley provided space on his web site for the photos.
=20
=20
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
=20

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: RE : a dull legged. streaked
         headed         Yellow-legged Gull in NF
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 7 Jan 2003 10:32am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

  =20
  Bruce wrote:>Most people questioned the leg colour. On my home =
computer the legs look an off pinkish.  In life there was no hint of =
pink or flesh colour.  The legs were solid yellow, not a cast of yellow =
with a pink undertone as is no too infrequent on smithsonianus Herring =
Gulls in spring.  The legs were solid yellow, but a dingy yellow with a =
vague greenish hue. I hesitate to compare with winter Common Gull, but =
the legs were somewhere in that league. <

  On my screen the legs look solid pale pink, not a hint of yellow! The =
grey mantle too is pale grey and not like atlantis at all. Is it my =
screen or is it your scan? If it is the latter, could you please make =
one again? But if, what you say is true and I am the last to doubt that, =
yellow legs, a dark grey mantle and it's characteristic head pattern =
makes this a perfect atlantis.

  and Bruce wrote:>This would still leave plenty of time to fly back to =
the Azores in time for the breeding season in April. <

   actually egg-laying commences in May so even more time to return =
home!

   Cheers,Norman

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Oriental Greenfinch in Ontario
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2003 12:45pm

Yesterday what appears to be an Oriental Greenfinch appeared at a feeder
in southern Ontario.

Questions:

(1) What is the likelihood that this bird is wild?

(2) In Alaska this fall and winter, have there been any records of the
species to suggest that the Ontario bird might be wild?

If anyone has opinions on the above, send them to me privately.

Thanks,

Alan Wormington,
Leamington, Ontario


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: (fwd) RE: Female scuap undertail.
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 7 Jan 2003 3:40pm

Forwarded by request.  Colin's posts are apparently being refused by
listserv because of his IP.

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 20:27:56 -0000, "Colin Bradshaw"
<drcolin.bradshaw(AT)btinternet.com> wrote:

I think it is even more variable than Joe suggests. The British Birds
Rarities Committee was assessing a record of a young Lesser Scaup record
from Britain which had whitish undertail coverts and the question of a
hybrid arose.

I was in Toronto in Sept so checked every Lesser Scaup I saw for this
feature.

In total I saw 14 well enough to see what was going on. In 9 out of the 14
from any distance the undertail coverts seemed whitish [not the gleaming
white of ferruginous duck but fairly close to what I would expect of many
tufted]. When you got closer to these you could see that the colour was a
composite of pale and dark areas with the pale predominant. The other 5
seemed dark but, in fact, close to these 4 of the 5 the colour was a
composite of pale and dark areas with the dark predominant. Thus there was
only 1 that had properly dark undertail coverts.

I can't say how this would translate into winter birds rather than the
rather scabby individuals I was watching.

I'm back over in March and will try and do a similar thing on early spring
birds to see what the count is

Cheers

Colin

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu]On Behalf Of Joseph Morlan
Sent: 06 January 2003 16:33
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Female scuap undertail.

On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:47:48 EST, James Barton <BrdBk(AT)AOL.COM> wrote:

>     On the basis of my long experience with affinis, I must respectfully
>disagree with Joe Morlan on one point, namely, the coloration of the
>undertail coverts on females  I have seen birds on Fresh Pond which were
>affinis on all other  accounts, yet presented white undertail coverts.
>Covert hybrids?.  Maybe,  but I don't think so.

I don't think we disagree on this.  What I actually said was:

"Whitish undertail coverts which is not normal on any scaup."

Perhaps that was a poor choice of words, but I do think that white
undertail coverts are the exception rather than the rule in scaup sp.  In
Tufted Duck the reverse is true.  Most female Tufted Ducks (especially
those with white faces) have white undertail coverts.

But you are correct that this character is variable.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
SF Spring Birding Classes - Feb 4 http://fog.ccsf.org/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Wanapum loon pictures & brief discussion (fwd)
From: Ian Paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)KRL.ORG>
Date: 8 Jan 2003 2:56pm

HI ALL:
 Any comments??

Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)krl.org
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way"

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:38:01 -0800
From: Charles Swift <charless(AT)moscow.com>
To: Tweeters <tweeters(AT)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Wanapum loon pictures & brief discussion

All -

Here is a web site that Jane Westervelt put together with several pictures
of the loon in question. If others have pictures please send them to her at
jwesterv(AT)uidaho.edu or westerveltj(AT)netscape.net so she can add the to the
site.

http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwesterv/Loonacy.html

In my judgement the loon pictured is most probably a Common Loon based on
overall shape and size of head (and to a lesser extent the bill). Also head
and neck appear to be same shade where in Pacific/Arctic the head and neck
should appear slightly lighter in color. Granted these pictures are probably
not sufficient to make a positive ID but that is the impression one gets. I
think there might be too much emphasis on white flanks in discussions of
this bird where other features seem to indicate otherwise(indeed this may
have been what prompted the initial id.).

 It seems that Common Loons can be somewhat variable in fall/winter and
whenever I am unsure about a winter plumage loon initially it always turns
out to be a Common Loon. In contrast, the few Pacific Loons I have seen here
in the interior have jumped out at me right away. Other comments??

thanks, Charles.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Charles E. Swift
Moscow, ID, USA
charless(AT)moscow.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Wanapum loon pictures & brief discussion
         (fwd)
From: Kenn Kaufman <kennk(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2003 4:13pm

Hi Ian -- I looked at the links indicated, and all of the loon photos and
drawings from Wanapum Dam clearly show Common Loons.  The presence or
absence of white on the flanks is irrelevant unless the bird has already
been established as being in the Arctic/Pacific Loon complex.  It's a
very common thing for Common Loons (as well as Yellow-billed and
Red-throated Loons) to show white on the flanks above the waterline, and
I'm not sure how this point came to be regarded as exclusive to Arctic
Loon.

Kenn Kaufman
Tucson, AZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Paulsen" <ipaulsen(AT)KRL.ORG>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:50 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Wanapum loon pictures & brief discussion (fwd)

> HI ALL:
>  Any comments??
>
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
> ipaulsen(AT)krl.org
> A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
> "Rallidae all the way"
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:38:01 -0800
> From: Charles Swift <charless(AT)moscow.com>
> To: Tweeters <tweeters(AT)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Wanapum loon pictures & brief discussion
>
> All -
>
> Here is a web site that Jane Westervelt put together with several
pictures
> of the loon in question. If others have pictures please send them to
her at
> jwesterv(AT)uidaho.edu or westerveltj(AT)netscape.net so she can add the to
the
> site.
>
> http://www.uidaho.edu/~jwesterv/Loonacy.html
>
> In my judgement the loon pictured is most probably a Common Loon based
on
> overall shape and size of head (and to a lesser extent the bill). Also
head
> and neck appear to be same shade where in Pacific/Arctic the head and
neck
> should appear slightly lighter in color. Granted these pictures are
probably
> not sufficient to make a positive ID but that is the impression one
gets. I
> think there might be too much emphasis on white flanks in discussions
of
> this bird where other features seem to indicate otherwise(indeed this
may
> have been what prompted the initial id.).
>
>  It seems that Common Loons can be somewhat variable in fall/winter and
> whenever I am unsure about a winter plumage loon initially it always
turns
> out to be a Common Loon. In contrast, the few Pacific Loons I have seen
here
> in the interior have jumped out at me right away. Other comments??
>
> thanks, Charles.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Charles E. Swift
> Moscow, ID, USA
> charless(AT)moscow.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Puzzling branta-type goose from New York
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 8 Jan 2003 5:02pm

Hi everyone,

I have added some more photographs of the presumed brant x canada goose
hybrid from New York City as well as specific comments from a number of
goose enthusiasts. The URL is:

http://www.oceanwanderers.com/OddBrant.html

There is general agreement that this is rather attractive bird is likely
a hybrid and that most commentators lean towards brant x canada,
although brant x pink-footed was also floated as a possibility. I
initially suggested Cackling Goose as a candidate for one parent, in
order to keep the bird small, however, this may be unnecessary. Ken
Abraham provides a very reasonable argument for how Richardson's Canada
Goose [which are a on the small side] might occasionally hybridize with
low-arctic Atlantic Brant on the breeding grounds. Interestingly, the
goose was quite vocal this weekend, uttering a distinctive call
reminiscent of both brant and Canada Goose. At least one normal brant in
the flock was ringed but I could not get a read before they were flushed
in the middle of the lake but the inevitable dog walkers.

Expert Comments (in order received)

What a neat bird!  I think you have it right with a hybrid based on a
cursory glimpse of the pictures. Reports of Cacklers out of range are
troubling to me in the sense that the wild birds don't wander according
to band reports. I'm presuming it was hanging out with Brant and no
Canadas were around, right? [with brant but some Canada's nearby, AW]
Mary Gustafson, Maryland, USA

The photo is stunning and wonderful. I have no earthly idea what the
bird is, of course. Ned Brinkley, Virginia, USA

The impression from the head shape is that of a cackling goose and not
that much of a brant. It appears that there "must" be some cackling in
it. I have never seen cackling hybrids myself, but have seen several
greater canada x greylag. One of the most consistent features has been
the presence of the white or pale cheek patch (see
http://www.astro.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/ -> hybrids). But having said that
I wouldn't be surprised if a cack x brant would look like your bird. The
black of the brant may be such a dominating feature that it just swamps
any pale areas of the other species! Hybrids can be reminiscent of one
of the parents, or in between or have features not present in either
parent, so not finding a particular feature present in the parent
species does not rule out that species. Harry Lehto, Finland

Very interesting bird! Can't offer you any definite information regards
whether it's a hybrid or not, I really don't know? However, based on gut
feeling- I'd be surprised if it is not a hybrid or that it is 'just' a
Cackling Goose without a chin strap. The head and bill shape/structure
look very Brant-like, especially the head. To be more exact, I'd be very
surprised that Cackling goose minus the chin-strap= Brant structure and
head-shape! My hunch is that it is a hybrid. The plumage is mostly
Cackling but structure is Brant. I'd expect the head shape of Cackling
to be rather square with a steeper angle to the forehead. Gerard
Philips, New York, USA

The funny goose is a corker. Quite obviously a Brent x Canada hybrid,
definitely not a funny Cackler. In addition to the points you mention,
the upperparts are wrong for minima and show some grey brent-like
feathers, the tail/uppertail covert structures are tending towards
brent, the bill structure is brenty, leg-length is brent (short tibia),
and the dark belly / rear flank crescents are brent influenced. All in
all, a fabulous creature! Richard Millington, Norfolk, UK

I had another look at the hybrid goose photos, and thought I'd throw a
few more comments your way. As well as the tail/uppertail covert
structure being closer to brent than Canada, so is the structure of the
secondaries/tertials. In the narrow-winged brents, the secondaries are
short and rather equal in length (so form a parallel band along the rear
of the closed wing), with the tertials suddenly rather longer. This is a
bit wader-like. In the broader-winged Canadas, the secondaries become
gradually but noticeably longer inwards, bulking out to meet the
tertials, so form a broadening wedge on the rear wing. Your bird is
intermediate in this respect too, but closer to Brent. Of course, the
other parent probably isn't Cackler. The fact it looks a bit like one
now is an artefact; I guess the original Canada parent was one of the
middle/northern forms. Richard Millington, Norfolk, UK

Bruce Peterjohn suggested Pink-footed Goose as the second parent rather
than Canada. I rather like this suggestion as the bill structure does
not seem long as any Canada other than Cackler would likely add to a
Brant bill. This isn't as wild a suggestion as it might seem if the
flock is
from Greenland or wherever the bird that turns up in PA summers.
Cacklers are not rare in captivity in my memory but from the reports
I've seen of them in the east I don't even think the subspecies is
correct on most-dark small Canadas can be Richardsons/Hutchins geese or
even small interiors from the James Bay Islands (and some are best left
as dark small Canadas!).  As a birder I'd like to see more attention
paid to Canada Goose subspecies in the field (and I see this starting).
Mary Gustafson, Maryland, USA

Just saw your pictures of the striking branta goose from Corona Park. I
agree with Richard Millington's comments, and Gerard Phillip comments.
Looking at the first photo from the breast down, I would never even have
guessed that it had any brant in it at all - to me body and feather
morphology say Canada goose. However, the bill is that of a brant. There
is no need to involve Cackling Canada geese in any explanation, in my
opinion. As far as hybridization and potential parentage is concerned,
what no one else has mentioned is that Atlantic Brant nesting in the
eastern Arctic (where your NY birds come from) broadly co-exist with
Richardson's Canada geese (Branta canadensis hutchinsii). The two
species nest in close proximity on Southampton Island, Baffin Island,
and elsewhere. Although their breeding chronology is slightly askew
(Richardson's nesting earlier by a couple of days), there would be
plenty of overlap in the egg-laying and fertile period of females, and
plenty of opportunity for extra-species copulation and fertilization
resulting in such a hybrid. Its size would therefore not be a surprise,
as Richardson's from those islands are larger but not too much so.
Thanks for posting the picture, a great looking bird, wish I were close
enough to come down and have a look myself. Ken Abraham, Barrie,
Ontario, Canada

Many thanks to all those who commented on the photos.

Angus Wilson,
New York City


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Speaking of Geese
From: Brian Monk <Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2003 10:08pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Hi Y'all,

There is a specimen of small Canada Goose that has appeared in Okaloosa
County, Florida, In Ft Walton Beach.  The finder has made a suggestion that
the bird may be leucopareia.  This would be extremely unusual on the east
coast, if I'm not mistaken.  Would not hutchinsii be a more expected bird?
Could someone direct me to a source that adequately describes the expected
differences between the small ssp of B.canadensis?  Or respond with some
explanation?  I would greatly appreciate it, as I have only before seen
hutchinsii and the typical goose on the east coast, which is Todd's (interior
), again if I'm not mistaken.  Thanks much!!

Brian Monk, DVM
Destin, FL
monkpiper(AT)aol.com
850-650-6158

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Red-breasted Merganser
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 9 Jan 2003 3:44am

I'm seeking opinions on the age and sex of a
Red-breasted Merganser (first for Virgin Islands) at:

http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/vired-breastedmerganser

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

=====
Floyd E. Hayes
Wildlife Biologist
Division of Fish and Wildlife, 6291 Estate Nazareth,
St. Thomas, Virgin Islands 00802, USA
Tel: 340-775-6762; Fax: 340-775-3972
Website: http://www.geocities.com/floyd_hayes

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Hybrid hawk - update
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 10 Jan 2003 8:33am

Dear all,
For the past 2+ days, Bill Clark has been attempting to catch the hybrid
Swainson's x Rough-legged Hawk in southwestern Tarrant County, near Fort
Worth, Texas.  Sadly it eluded him, despite having the lures in plain sight
on numerous occasions, and it twice striking a lure without getting
caught.  It seems that the extremely high population of Hispid Cotton Rats
is keeping this bird (and many other hawks) well-fed, and thus not too
interested in the lures.
Bill did get prolonged views of the bird in flight and perched (and some
decent photos); I'll let Bill speak for himself on this, but I can tell
that you he saw nothing to change our opinion that this is a hybrid between
the above-named species.
http://www.martinreid.com/Raptors3b.html
Bill will be working on a Paper about this bird plus a RLHA x Harlan's
hybrid; details TBA.
Regards,
Martin

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: GODWIT BILL COLOR/PATTERN
From: pabuckley <pabuckley(AT)URI.EDU>
Date: 10 Jan 2003 10:01am

A break from gulls:

Distant, stationary, non-breeding plumaged godwits that refuse to
show underwings or upperparts can be an ID nuisance.  Partial help
comes from the suggestion that a godwit can always be identified with
certainty as Hudsonian if showing reddish (as opposed to pinkish)
color on the bill, and/or if such color is only on the lower mandible
(the upper being entirely 'dark' or 'blackish'). What are observers'
experiences with these features as possible ID aids?

Do any Barwits (_lapponica_ or _baueri_) or Blackwits (especially
_melanuroides_) exhibit either or both of these features at any age
or in any plumage?

Cheers,
--
P.A. Buckley
Box 8 @ Graduate School of Oceanography
University of Rhode Island
Narragansett RI 02882

01-401-874-4201    (office)
01-401-874-6887    (fax)
01-401-792-3451    (home)
pabuckley(AT)uri.edu  (email)

'In the fields of observation, chance favors only the mind that is
prepared.'  --- Louis Pasteur


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: GODWIT BILL COLOR/PATTERN
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 10 Jan 2003 1:26pm

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Paul:

I can't comment on the bill but I've spent a bit of time looking photos and
live melanuroides Blackwits (good to hear this UK'ism) and I feel that
structural features should be useful. Hudwits show a much longer primary
projection beyond the tail and a longer primary projection beyond the
tertial tips than melanuroides (and probably other Blackwit Subsp. too but I
haven't checked). I've seen odd melanuroides that look a bit longer winged,
quite possibly due to molt or posture, but this difference seems to hold
true for the great majority assuming that all Hudwits are as longed winged
as the last one I saw.

I think that the scapular pattern of summer-pluamged birds is also a bit
different but can't remember the details. I would imagine that Barwit and
Hudwit are always easily separated by upperpart feather pattern at least in
non-breeding plumage.

Regards, Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: pabuckley [mailto:pabuckley(AT)URI.EDU]
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 9:00 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] GODWIT BILL COLOR/PATTERN

A break from gulls:

Distant, stationary, non-breeding plumaged godwits that refuse to
show underwings or upperparts can be an ID nuisance.  Partial help
comes from the suggestion that a godwit can always be identified with
certainty as Hudsonian if showing reddish (as opposed to pinkish)
color on the bill, and/or if such color is only on the lower mandible
(the upper being entirely 'dark' or 'blackish'). What are observers'
experiences with these features as possible ID aids?

Do any Barwits (_lapponica_ or _baueri_) or Blackwits (especially
_melanuroides_) exhibit either or both of these features at any age
or in any plumage?

Cheers,
--
P.A. Buckley
Box 8 @ Graduate School of Oceanography
University of Rhode Island
Narragansett RI 02882

01-401-874-4201    (office)
01-401-874-6887    (fax)
01-401-792-3451    (home)
pabuckley(AT)uri.edu  (email)

'In the fields of observation, chance favors only the mind that is
prepared.'  --- Louis Pasteur

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Verdict on the Florida "Sharp-tailed Sandpiper"
From: Bill Pranty <billpranty(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 10 Jan 2003 6:58pm

Dear all,

Three weeks ago, I posted a photo of a purported juvenile Sharp-tailed
Sandpiper that was photographed (poorly) in southern Florida on 1 Sep 2002.

<http://www.javaswift.com/floridabirds/Apparent%20Shap-tailed%20Sandpiper.html>

The general concensus is that the bird _could_ have been a Sharp-tailed, but
the photo cannot prove it conclusively. Some mentioned that the upperparts
looked to dull to be a juvenile, and several pointed out that 1 Sep would be
a very early date for a juvenile. A few suggested that the bird could be a
Ruff.

My thanks to all who responded, and I apologize if I left out anybody: Jim
Barton, Colin Bradshaw, Alan Contreras, Don DesJardin, Cameron Eckert, Dave
Lauten, Paul Lehman, Nick Lethaby, Steve Mlodinow, Peter Wilkinson, and Bob
& Carol Yutzy.

Best regards,

Bill Pranty
Bayonet Point, Florida
billpranty(AT)hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: A first El Salvador record for GWGU?
From: Tony Leukering <GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 11 Jan 2003 3:23pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Hi all:

If you really do not want to deal with another gull, hit the ol' 'delete' key
now!

I am forwarding a message from Oliver Komar about a young gull found in El
Salvador this month.  On the first small set of photos that I originally saw,
the bird looked very pale - probably too pale for a Glaucous-wing in January
- so I was thinking that, perhaps, we could initiate discussion about the H
word.  However, now that I've seen the larger series, I'm not at all
convinced that my first thoughts were correct.  So, please check out the web
page and let us know what you think.  Also, please, if you respond to the
list, please reply to all, so that the others on my distribution list can see
your comments.  If you do not reply to the list, please include the others in
my cc: list in your distribution list.

Thanx,

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

< Meanwhile, Tom Jenner has sent more photos and I have placed them on the
web at

<A
HREF="http://nhm.ku.edu/komar/imagegallery/birds/jiboa_gull.html">http://nhm.ku.edu/komar/imagegallery/birds/jiboa_gull.html</A>

Regards,

Oliver >

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: A first El Salvador record for GWGU?
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 11 Jan 2003 4:04pm

Pure Glaucous-winged shouldn't show such a contrastingly dark terminal
tail band. The structure including the bill also looks a little funky. I'd
have
to vote for "H-word" bird of some kind.

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com

> I am forwarding a message from Oliver Komar about a young gull found in El
> Salvador this month.  On the first small set of photos that I originally
saw,
> the bird looked very pale - probably too pale for a Glaucous-wing in
January
> - so I was thinking that, perhaps, we could initiate discussion about the
H
> word.  However, now that I've seen the larger series, I'm not at all
> convinced that my first thoughts were correct.  So, please check out the
web
> page and let us know what you think.  Also, please, if you respond to the
> list, please reply to all, so that the others on my distribution list can
see
> your comments.  If you do not reply to the list, please include the others
in
> my cc: list in your distribution list.
>
> Thanx,
>
> Tony Leukering
> Brighton, CO

HREF="http://nhm.ku.edu/komar/imagegallery/birds/jiboa_gull.html">http://nhm
.ku.edu/komar/imagegallery/birds/jiboa_gull.html</A>