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ID-FRONTIERS for March 1-8, 2003
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Re: Storm-petrel at Arica, Peru; ID help? | MARTIN SCOTT | Sat, 1 Mar 2003 | 4:03pm |
| Re: Storm-petrel at Arica, Peru; ID help? | Kenn Kaufman | Sun, 2 Mar 2003 | 1:10pm |
| Italy: probable first Greenland White-fronted
Goose (photos) | Menotti Passarella | Sun, 2 Mar 2003 | 2:41pm |
| Re: Italy: probable first Greenland White-fronted
Goose (photos) | Steve Leonard | Sun, 2 Mar 2003 | 3:05pm |
| Re: Italy: probable first Greenland White-fronted
Goose (photos) | Dick Newell | Sun, 2 Mar 2003 | 3:22pm |
| Re: Mystery Merganser | Floyd Hayes | Sun, 2 Mar 2003 | 5:59pm |
| Re: Manx or Audubon's Shearwater | Floyd Hayes | Sun, 2 Mar 2003 | 6:09pm |
| Yellow-legged Gull in South America? | Floyd Hayes | Mon, 3 Mar 2003 | 10:50am |
| Red wren-like bird in NJ (photos) | Scott Haber | Mon, 3 Mar 2003 | 8:35pm |
| white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides Iceland
Gulls | Matt Kenne | Mon, 3 Mar 2003 | 10:41pm |
| Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls | Dick Newell | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 12:44am |
| Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls | Michel Bertrand | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 12:48am |
| Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls | Joseph Morlan | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 7:43am |
| Iceland Gull | John Pogacnik | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 8:15am |
| Re: Iceland Gull | Phil Pickering | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 8:51am |
| Re: Iceland Gulls | Michel Bertrand | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 9:55am |
| Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls | Matt Sharp | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 9:26am |
| Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls | Joseph Morlan | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 11:27am |
| Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls | John Idzikowski | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 11:58am |
| An ID game | Michel Bertrand | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 1:53pm |
| Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls | David Christie | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 7:27pm |
| Re: Iceland Gulls | Mike Harvey | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 7:28pm |
| Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls | Bruce Mactavish | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 7:53pm |
| Aging of Pacific Loons? | Angus Wilson | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 8:01pm |
| Re: Iceland Gull | Bruce Mactavish | Tue, 4 Mar 2003 | 8:19pm |
| Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls | Peter Adriaens | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 2:54am |
| Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls | Matt Sharp | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 8:19am |
| Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls | Phil Pickering | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 8:41am |
| Nominate Iceland Gull in NA | Jean Iron | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 8:48am |
| cormorant | Diederik D'Hert | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 10:46am |
| Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls | Matt Kenne | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 11:03am |
| Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls | Phil Pickering | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 11:19am |
| R: cormorant | Menotti Passarella | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 11:54am |
| Re: Nominate Iceland Gull in NA | Tony Leukering | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 2:23pm |
| Swallow wingspan rfi | Giff Beaton | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 2:25pm |
| Re: Aging of Pacific Loons? | Tony Leukering | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 2:38pm |
| Re: ID of Nominate Iceland Gull in Ontario | Jean Iron | Wed, 5 Mar 2003 | 3:25pm |
| Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls | Peter Adriaens | Thu, 6 Mar 2003 | 3:39am |
| Re: looking for vent straps on loons | Martin Reid | Thu, 6 Mar 2003 | 5:03am |
| Pacific Loon head shape | Kevin J. McGowan | Thu, 6 Mar 2003 | 7:48am |
| Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls | Steven Mlodinow | Thu, 6 Mar 2003 | 10:23am |
| Re: Aging of Pacific Loons? | Angus Wilson | Thu, 6 Mar 2003 | 11:33am |
| A Murre from Wisconsin- Conclusion | John Idzikowski | Thu, 6 Mar 2003 | 12:41pm |
| small-type Canada Goose | Jon Feenstra | Fri, 7 Mar 2003 | 7:41am |
| Summer Tanager behavior | Joseph Morlan | Fri, 7 Mar 2003 | 8:40am |
| Re: small-type Canada Goose | Elias Elias | Fri, 7 Mar 2003 | 8:32am |
| Great Gulls! | Norman D.van Swelm | Sat, 8 Mar 2003 | 11:09am |
| Gull help requested | Nick Komar | Sat, 8 Mar 2003 | 5:44pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Storm-petrel at Arica, Peru; ID help?
From: MARTIN SCOTT <scillybirder(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 1 Mar 2003 4:03pm
This is all a bit rushed as I am soon to be moving house so haven't got the
time I would like to write here.
I took these pictures with a 200mm lens off Arica in June/July during an El
Nino year (1998).There were at least five birds, which I suspect puts paid
to any vagrant theories. The birds were actually flying up and down the
beach at times!! It was stunningly odd behaviour which I found hard to
reconcile with Wilson's (along with the white extending onto the belly) and
had a nigle that they might be Elliots, but literature is scant. At the time
we were back packing and didn't have specific literature available.
First off what other Petrels have birders seen in coastal Peru?? These bird
seemed a tadge short winged for Wilsons even taking into account the wear
etc. The moult doesn't seem to accord with birds seen in the North Atlantic
either. Differrent subspecies of Wilsons was also muted.
As my wife points out Arica is actually in Chile on the Peruvian border by
the way but we also saw a similar bird at Paracas in Peru a few hundred
miles up the coast a couple of weeks later.
Any further comments appreciated
Cheers
Martin S Scott
Isles of Scilly
_________________________________________________________________
Chat online in real time with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.co.uk
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Storm-petrel at Arica, Peru; ID help?
From: Kenn Kaufman <kennk(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 2 Mar 2003 1:10pm
Hello Martin,
Your note rang a bell here because I was in coastal Peru during July
1983, also a major El Nino year, and also saw storm-petrels flying very
close to shore. At a couple of points (just south of Lima and around
Paracas) they were present by the dozens, and at Paracas some were
literally flying within inches of the dock where we stood. With such
close and prolonged studies, we concluded that both Wilson's and
White-vented (Elliot's) were present. We could see two slightly but
distinctly different sizes of birds, with slightly different flight
styles, and the smaller birds appeared to have shorter wings and a bit
more white ventrally. The distinctions were subtle, however, and the
kinds of jizz characters that we were using would not translate well to
analysis of photos.
If either Al Jaramillo or Steve Howell is listening, I suspect that both
of them have worked on this I.D. problem in coastal Chile.
Best regards
Kenn Kaufman
Tucson, Arizona
----- Original Message -----
From: "MARTIN SCOTT" <scillybirder(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Storm-petrel at Arica, Peru; ID help?
> This is all a bit rushed as I am soon to be moving house so haven't got
the
> time I would like to write here.
>
> I took these pictures with a 200mm lens off Arica in June/July during
an El
> Nino year (1998).There were at least five birds, which I suspect puts
paid
> to any vagrant theories. The birds were actually flying up and down the
> beach at times!! It was stunningly odd behaviour which I found hard to
> reconcile with Wilson's (along with the white extending onto the belly)
and
> had a nigle that they might be Elliots, but literature is scant. At the
time
> we were back packing and didn't have specific literature available.
>
> First off what other Petrels have birders seen in coastal Peru?? These
bird
> seemed a tadge short winged for Wilsons even taking into account the
wear
> etc. The moult doesn't seem to accord with birds seen in the North
Atlantic
> either. Differrent subspecies of Wilsons was also muted.
>
> As my wife points out Arica is actually in Chile on the Peruvian border
by
> the way but we also saw a similar bird at Paracas in Peru a few hundred
> miles up the coast a couple of weeks later.
>
>
> Any further comments appreciated
>
> Cheers
>
> Martin S Scott
> Isles of Scilly
>
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Italy: probable first Greenland White-fronted
Goose (photos)
From: Menotti Passarella <menotti.passarella(AT)LIBERO.IT>
Date: 2 Mar 2003 2:41pm
Hi all.
Two photos taken in NE Italy on 23 February 2003 show a possible
first-for-Italy Greenland White-fronted Goose:
http://it.geocities.com/savastefano/ocar1.jpg
http://it.geocities.com/savastefano/ocar2.jpg
Any comments ?
The goose was found by Maurizio Azzolini and photographed by Stefano Sava.
Regards
Menotti Passarella
Italy
menotti.passarella(AT)libero.it
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Italy: probable first Greenland White-fronted
Goose (photos)
From: Steve Leonard <sw.leonard(AT)VERIZON.NET>
Date: 2 Mar 2003 3:05pm
Shouldn't an immature be showing white frontal feathering by now? Also the
back doesn't seem to show the pale edges on the feathers one would expect,
even on an immature.
Steve Leonard
Malden, MA
sw.leonard(AT)verizon.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Italy: probable first Greenland White-fronted
Goose (photos)
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)MACUNLIMITED.NET>
Date: 2 Mar 2003 3:22pm
I don't think so Menotti - or if it is, assuming this is a "White-fronted"
Goose, these photos don't show enough to prove it. The dark border near the
bill is much more a feature of albifrons than it is of flavirostris - also
the neck is much too pale. Unfortunately you have no shot of the tail -
albifrons has a very broad white end to the tail compared to the narrow
white end of flavirostris. The bill of this bird even looks pink
(=albifrons) on my screen.
Dick, Cambridge, UK.
On 2/3/03 9:46 pm, "Menotti Passarella" <menotti.passarella(AT)LIBERO.IT>
wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> Two photos taken in NE Italy on 23 February 2003 show a possible
> first-for-Italy Greenland White-fronted Goose:
>
> http://it.geocities.com/savastefano/ocar1.jpg
>
> http://it.geocities.com/savastefano/ocar2.jpg
>
> Any comments ?
>
> The goose was found by Maurizio Azzolini and photographed by Stefano Sava.
>
> Regards
>
> Menotti Passarella
> Italy
> menotti.passarella(AT)libero.it
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Merganser
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 2 Mar 2003 5:59pm
I thank the 13 individuals whose unanimous verdict
(Red-breasted Merganser, of course) tactfully
persuaded the photographer (who, incidentally, had
never seen a merganser before): Kevin McGowan, Richard
Knapton, Will Russell, Mary Gustafson, David Fix,
David Spector, Dick Newell, Paul Lehman, Nick Komar,
Paul Larkin, Mitch Heindel, Jim Mountjoy, and Steven
Mlodinow.
As for the sex and age of the bird, it still remains
an ID frontier...
-Floyd
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Manx or Audubon's Shearwater
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 2 Mar 2003 6:09pm
With regard to the Manx Shearwater photographed in
Dominica
(http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/domanxshearwater),
I have now received nine responses and the verdict is
essentially split: four thought it was Audubon's, four
thought it was Manx, and one suggested an aberrant
Audubon's or a European species.
A link to the comments is provided in the above
webpage. Any further comments are welcome. Beware that
Geocities limits the number of hits per hour so if you
don't get through, try again later.
-Floyd
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Yellow-legged Gull in South America?
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 3 Mar 2003 10:50am
Nick Rossiter provided a rather thorough analysis of a
second basic gull that I photographed in Trinidad last
winter, and concluded that it was a Yellow-legged
Gull. Martin Reid concurs. At the time I thought its
mantle was too dark for Yellow-legged and dismissed it
as a heavy-billed Lesser Black-backed. As a potential
first record for South America, any other
opinions--either for or against, and whether you think
the photographic evidence is sufficient to support a
first record--would be greatly appreciated. The photos
and a link to the responses are posted at:
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttmysterygull
Once again beware that the wite may be temporarily
inaccessible due to data transfer restrictions imposed
by Geocities.
=====
Floyd E. Hayes
Wildlife Biologist
Division of Fish and Wildlife, 6291 Estate Nazareth,
St. Thomas, Virgin Islands 00802, USA
Tel: 340-775-6762; Fax: 340-775-3972
Website: http://www.geocities.com/floyd_hayes
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Red wren-like bird in NJ (photos)
From: Scott Haber <birderscott(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 3 Mar 2003 8:35pm
These photos (not mine) were posted on the New Jersey
birding listserve. Of the several friends I've sent
it to, most have come up with an extremely erythritic
Carolina Wren...I'm still not going to say anything,
though. Any thoughts from anyone here?
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/chipkril/red_wren.htm
Good birding,
Scott Haber
Bergen County, NJ
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides Iceland
Gulls
From: Matt Kenne <mkenne(AT)NETAMUMAIL.COM>
Date: 3 Mar 2003 10:41pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
About a month ago, there was an interesting thread concerning Kumlien's =
Iceland Gull's wingtip patterns. On a tangent, the discussion took on =
the difficult subject of separating rare white-winged kumlieni from =
glaucoides. This seems to be an incredibly difficult proposition even =
for birders with extensive experience with Kumlien's in normal wintering =
areas, let alone those of us landlocked in mid-continent with, at best, =
only a handful of Iceland Gull sightings under our belts. This =
identification discussion was especially difficult because it didn't =
include any visuals for us to reference other than "look in Grant". As a =
learning bird, how does the mid-continent Iceland Gull at =
http://members.surfbest.net/digiscoping_stl(AT)surfbest.net/igull.htm fit =
into the spectrum? Is this the look you need to see those hints of gray =
in the primaries that would make it a "regular" pale Kumlien's, is this =
a rare "white-winged" individual, or can't this be determined from this =
type of folded-wing position? Maybe we need in-flight or wing-stretch =
photos? If this truly is a bird without gray in the wingtips (as =
observers stated), what are the features that, if I had enough =
experience with Iceland, would give me the "feel" that this is or isn't =
glaucoides?
Matthew Kenne
Algona, Iowa
mkenne(AT)netamumail.com
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)MACUNLIMITED.NET>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 12:44am
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
"Matt Kenne" <mkenne(AT)NETAMUMAIL.COM> wrote:
> =B3As a learning bird, how does the mid-continent Iceland Gull at
> http://members.surfbest.net/digiscoping_stl(AT)surfbest.net/igull.htm fit i=
nto
> the spectrum? Is this the look you need to see those hints of gray in the
> primaries that would make it a "regular" pale Kumlien's, is this a rare
> "white-winged" individual, or can't this be determined from this type of
> folded-wing position?=B2
>=20
> To identify a true nominate Iceland Gull against a truly white-winged
> Kumlien=B9s Gull, then I reckon you are in to subjectivity where photograph=
s are
> a must =AD and even then, I guess you will never be sure. We get Iceland an=
d the
> occasional Kumlien=B9s here in Cambridge, UK. Iceland is cuter, looking mor=
e
> Common Gull-like. I have some pictures of really cute looking Cambridge
> Iceland Gulls here, all of which have notably small bills:
> http://www.magikcircle.com/birds/image.asp?title_id=3D487
>=20
> and here is a Cambridge Kumlien=B9s Gull (with grey in the wing-tips) which=
has
> a notably different face because of its larger bill and different head-sh=
ape.
> http://www.cambridgebirdclub.org.uk/gullpages/kg.htm
>=20
> Doubtless you can get large-billed Iceland Gulls and small-billed Kumlie=
n=B9s,
> so you may be able to do no more than a probabilistic identification.
>=20
> Adult Iceland bill often is lime-coloured, is Kumlien=B9s usually more yell=
ow?
> (I don=B9t know the answer here)
>=20
> To me, your bird does not look as cute as any of my Iceland Gulls, and th=
e
> bill does not look lime coloured, so if I had to call it, I would go
> Kumlien=B9s.- but if it was in Cambridge, I would probably pass it off as
> Iceland!
>=20
> I could not find enough pictures on the internet of these 2 forms, but th=
e few
> that I have found would mostly support my conjectures above, and those th=
at
> don=B9t, may be misidentified!
>=20
> Dick Newell, Cambridge, UK
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls
From: Michel Bertrand <bertrmi(AT)COLBA.NET>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 12:48am
Matt Kenne has written :
> About a month ago, there was an interesting thread concerning
> Kumlien's Iceland Gull's wingtip patterns. (...) As a learning bird,
> how does the mid-continent Iceland Gull at
> http://members.surfbest.net/digiscoping_stl(AT)surfbest.net/igull.htm
> fit into the spectrum? (...)
__________________________
On the two first photos, it seems to be some gray (same tint as the gray of
the mantle) on the outer web of the visible primaries, but not reaching
their more distal portion. So, if I see that correctly, the bird would be a
pale kumlieni.
I have seen a few Iceland Gulls with pure white wings (no gray at all) in
Montréal area which I have identified as L. g. glaucoides.
Now, another question. If AOU continues to keep L. thayeri and L. glaucoides
as two different species, why not putting kumlieni as a subspecies under L.
thayeri ? I feel there is more intergradation between thayeri and kumlieni
than between kumlieni and glaucoides. In fact, I feel the three taxa should
be lumped.
MICHEL BERTRAND
Sainte-Julie, Qc
bertrmi(AT)colba.net
N'oubliez pas d'identifier l'oiseau mystère :
Don't forget to identify the mystery bird at :
http://www.quebecoiseaux.qc.ca/HTML/Defi.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 7:43am
On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:31:45 -0600, Matt Kenne <mkenne(AT)NETAMUMAIL.COM>
wrote:
>About a month ago, there was an interesting thread concerning Kumlien's Iceland
Gull's wingtip patterns.
Would anyone care to comment on the bird in these photos:
http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/photos/icgu1.html
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
SF Spring Birding Classes - Feb 4 http://fog.ccsf.org/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Iceland Gull
From: John Pogacnik <jpogacnik(AT)LAKEMETROPARKS.COM>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 8:15am
Here is the link to an Iceland that had very pale wingtips:
http://www.aves.net/birdnews/mar2001b-gulls.html
It was photographed at Conneaut Ohio in March 2001. Conneaut is in extreme
Northeast Ohio. I did not see any darkness in the wingtips on this bird.
In Ohio, we are currently experiencing a mini invasion of Iceland gulls.
They were seen this weekend at a number of locations with a peak of at least
13-15 individuals in Cleveland on Saturday. Two or three are typically a
"good day" around here. Of the 13-15 birds at Cleveland, 8-10 were first
year birds and 2 were second year.
John Pogacnik
4765 Lockwood Road
Perry Ohio, 44081
home 440-259-2751
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland Gull
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 8:51am
No expertise claimed on this issue, but it should be kept in mind
that March certainly, and perhaps even January in some cases
is too late to accurately judge the primary tip color on these birds
due to wear and fading. I think this is likely to be particuarly true of
birds that are not quite mature, which seems to be the case with
this bird.
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
> http://www.aves.net/birdnews/mar2001b-gulls.html
>
> It was photographed at Conneaut Ohio in March 2001.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland Gulls
From: Michel Bertrand <bertrmi(AT)COLBA.NET>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 9:55am
Joseph Morlan asked :
> Would anyone care to comment on the bird in these photos:
> http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/photos/icgu1.html
______________________
Here again I can definitely see some gray areas on the primaries on both
photos, especially on the outer web of the external primaries. It can be
made more evident by working a bit on the gamma effect, the contrast and the
lightening with Microsoft Photo Editor or a similar software (that is just
helping to take out something which is already in the photos). On these two
photos, the bird(s?) is(are?) not different than the pale Kumlien's Gulls
I'm seeing in Québec (but many have darker marks on wings).
Be happy...
MICHEL BERTRAND
Sainte-Julie, Qc
bertrmi(AT)colba.net
N'oubliez pas d'identifier l'oiseau mystère :
Don't forget to identify the mystery bird at :
http://www.quebecoiseaux.qc.ca/HTML/Defi.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 9:26am
I agree with M. Bertrand. There appears to be some
gray on Ps 8-7(?). A large white tip to P10, especially on
a bird this pale seems well within the range of Kumlieni.
I think to be absolutely certain a spread wing shot is needed
or at least a clear view and description of the spread-wing
The gray on the primaries looks real but could it be augmented
by shadow?
I believe the contra hypothesis to putting kumlieni as a subspecies
of thayeri is that kumlieni is a hybrid population like Glaucous-wing
x western. So it is basically a mutt as opposed to a biologically
definable unit. And whats more the interbreeding could be
going both ways - with intergrades to the west mixing with thayeri
and to east mixing with glaucoides.
On the Bodega Bay bird was it accepted as glaucoides or kumlieni?
Again it is a little hard to judge what is pigment and what is shadow
but I think I see gray on the outer web P10 on the far wing and a
suggestion of gray sub-terminal bars of the Ps proximal to the
outermost (9 and 8 at least). However this could be light and not
pigment and the near wing appears white.
I also think Phil Pickering point is well taken especially considering
these may be birds on the pale end of the spectrum to begin with.
The bird from Conneaut Marsh does look rather worn and bedraggled.
with fresher looking scaps contrasting with the wing coverts. Also
on the flight shots the outer wing appear brownish suggesting wear.
Could the melanin in the wing tips have broken down and worn away?
Interesting set of photos even if conclusions are hard to come by.
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 11:27am
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:25:40 -0500, Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG> wrote:
>On the Bodega Bay bird was it accepted as glaucoides or kumlieni?
I don't believe the subspecies was ever decided.
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
SF Spring Birding Classes - Feb 4 http://fog.ccsf.org/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 11:58am
Is the intent of examining all these adult "white Icelands" to find a bird
that can be called nominate for N America? The present definition of
Kumlien's vs. nominate is a mostly geographical one based on breeding range-
nominates in Greenland and Kumlien's in Canada; very white, nominate-like
birds are known from the Kumlien's colonies on Baffin I. in with the more
"typical" K's.Until some single set of field characters based on summer
comparisons between these 2 populations on the white extreme can we
confidently distinguish Greenland birds and we may never be able to separate
these forms extralimitally.
Matt Sharp stated-
I believe the contra hypothesis to putting kumlieni as a subspecies
> of thayeri is that kumlieni is a hybrid population like Glaucous-wing
> x western. So it is basically a mutt as opposed to a biologically
> definable unit. And whats more the interbreeding could be
> going both ways - with intergrades to the west mixing with thayeri
> and to east mixing with glaucoides.
Matt's statement is essentially the Kitchener-McGowan model-
http://www.aves.net/birdnews/litreview-xthgulls.htm
All of this discussion surrounding Iceland is interesting and may be
compelling because we wish to be able to point to nominate Iceland in N
America while we pretty much have ignored an evaluation of the more common
Thayer's under this model. If there is a cline from east to west then we
should expect very Thayer's-like birds displaying characters that we perhaps
now readily accept are within the range of Thayer's, but are indicative of
western hybrids in the cline, e.g. having slightly lighter mantles or
grayish primaries. Why are these slightly off birds not the western dark
extremes within this cline and therefore not pure Thayer's? If we have to
place rigid rules of ID acceptance onto possible nominate Icelands; perhaps
we have to do the same for Thayer's, i.e. only those birds having the darker
mantle and black wingtips are T's until someone defines variation in the
field of Thayer's in the far western part of their range. Other birds should
be designated as Kumlien's- to repeat these may be birds that we are now
accepting as Thayer's. We see many of these birds on Lake Michigan that are
very Thayer's-like structurally but have some plumage quirk.
We seem to be tolerant of the variation of many birds at the lighter end of
the cline being acceptable Kumlien's or potential nominates as long as their
backs are the lighter gray, but we accept a good deal of variation in
Thayer's-like birds and comfort in calling them Thayer's without considering
those Kumlien's also. I had previously posted these shots asking for
opinions of Thayer's vs. Kumlien's; everyone went to Thayer's.
http://birds.excelcomm.com/gull01.jpg
http://birds.excelcomm.com/gull02.jpg
Also see Thayer's no 444 (p.114) in Harrison's photo guide to Seabirds.
If the gray primaries are due to the influence of Iceland genes then under
the Kitchener-McGowan definition then these birds are Kumlien's. The Olsen
and Larsson gull tome is due out in May-
http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/7362.html; it will be interesting to see how
they handle this issue and the billion other questions posed by this group.
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: An ID game
From: Michel Bertrand <bertrmi(AT)COLBA.NET>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 1:53pm
Hi,
Pretty our new mystery bird, isn't it ? One more time, you are invited to
identify a QuébecOiseaux quiz bird, now the 26th. Congratulations to Alain
Hogues for that beautiful photo. To see it, have a look at the direct
Internet address given at the end of my message. And send me your answer
WITH YOUR NAME AND POSTAL ADDRESS (it's a rule to be in the draws). Three
books will be drawn among those who will send the right identification : a
original complete field guide to the birds of Québec and Maritimes provinces
by Paquin & Caron, an introduction guide to Québec birds by S. Brûlotte and
a site guide for birding in Québec by S. Denault.
You must send your answer not later than April 5th. You can send it in
English (or in French, for sure). The only clues in the French text, at the
website, is that the bird is seen at mid-may, in a wood, among a group of
active birds going from branches to branches.
The former mystery bird was an immature Song Sparrow. Only 42% of the
received answers were right. Usually, that's at least 70%. It shows that
even the commonest species can "fool" the birders. A detailed argumentation
about the ID of the bird which was on the photo is provided in the current
issue of QuébecOiseaux (the printed magazine) which some quotations from
your answers. The three subscriptions to QuébecOiseaux have been won by
Raymond Belhumeur from Saint-Hubert, Raymonde Boyer from Sutton and Peter
Reed from York (UK). The Paquin & Caron field guide went to Richard Guthrie
from New Baltimore (NY).
Good luck for the new quiz.
MICHEL BERTRAND
Sainte-Julie, Qc
bertrmi(AT)colba.net
N'oubliez pas d'identifier l'oiseau mystère :
Don't forget to identify the mystery bird at :
http://www.quebecoiseaux.qc.ca/HTML/Defi.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls
From: David Christie <MarysPt(AT)NBNET.NB.CA>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 7:27pm
At 12:57 PM -0600 4/3/2003, John Idzikowski wrote:
>We seem to be tolerant of the variation of many birds at the lighter end of
>the cline being acceptable Kumlien's or potential nominates as long as their
>backs are the lighter gray, but we accept a good deal of variation in
>Thayer's-like birds and comfort in calling them Thayer's without considering
>those Kumlien's also. I had previously posted these shots asking for
>opinions of Thayer's vs. Kumlien's; everyone went to Thayer's.
>http://birds.excelcomm.com/gull01.jpg
>http://birds.excelcomm.com/gull02.jpg
John's photos show a bird that has more dark on the wing tips, a
somewhat longer beak, and probably a bit darker eye than one I've
photographed and consider as the dark extreme of the kumlieni we see
in the Maritimes. It's at
<http://www3.nbnet.nb.ca/maryspt/observ/KUGU.html>
Regarding Matt Kenne's Iceland Gull in Missouri at
<http://members.surfbest.net/digiscoping_stl(AT)surfbest.net/igull.htm>,
the thing that struck me most was that its mantle was so obviously
paler than the Ring-billed and Herring Gulls in the photos. I'm used
to kumlieni being similar in tone to those species. One would really
need a good photo of the spread wing to better assess the wingtip
pattern of that bird. When they fly, minimal darker shading usually
becomes visible on primaries of the pale kumlieni I see here.
--
David Christie mailto:MarysPt(AT)nbnet.nb.ca
Mary's Point, New Brunswick, CANADA
Nature NB: http://www3.nbnet.nb.ca/maryspt/NatureNB.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland Gulls
From: Mike Harvey <Scubasteve445(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 7:28pm
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Just a few more ideas on a related topic from a beginner. Two weeks ago a
photo was posted to this listserve labelled as a Thayer's Gull. Here it is
again:
<A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/GoBirding//gull1.jpg">http://members.aol.com/GoBirding//gull1.jpg</A>
While this was our initial tentative identification, later analysis of video
footage and photos along with some helpful comments by local experts (if
there is such a thing when it comes to Thayer's and Iceland Gulls) determined
that the bird showed several characteristics of kumlieni, namely a relatively
small bill and head giving it a "cute" appearance. Though appearing rather
dark folded in the posted photo, in flight the wingtips were paler as shown
by photos of the same bird just recently developed:
<A
HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/Scubasteve445/Windham.html">http://hometown.aol.com/Scubasteve445/Windham.html</A>
The mantle was also pale for a Thayer's Gull. Unfortunately (perhaps the
pictures are washed out), there is no clear, close photo of the bird's head
streaking, which was rather dark and extensive. I tend to agree with the idea
that kumlieni is perhaps a variable intergrade population between thayeri and
glaucoides. These photos display, along with the apparent differences between
photos using different equipment (digital video in the first, traditional SLR
in second), the variability of certain field marks. I'm no expert on this
topic, but I do know that here in New England we experience a large range of
variation in all field marks ranging from Thayers-like to Iceland-like. If a
bird with the primary pattern of this bird showed a combination of other
characteristics rather frequent in local Kumlien's such as a darker eye and
bulkier, less "cute" proportions, couldn't it be virtually identical to a
typical Thayer's? I find it almost as difficult to believe claims that
Thayer's Gulls can be conclusively and positively identified out of the hand
here on the East Coast as I do claims that pale Iceland Gulls are nominate
glaucoides (though I am not saying they cannot be). I pity those that
ultimately are faced with the challenge of deciding the taxonomic positions
for these variable gulls. Assuming Kumlien's is not merely a hybrid
population, would this bird best be considered a dark Kumlien's or perhaps a
Kumlien'sxThayer's intergrade? Would this pass as just another small (maybe
female) Thayer's Gull on the West coast? Could it be a small, pale Thayer's
Gull? Just more food for thought (or response).
Good Birding,
Mike Harvey
Windham, NH
Scubasteve445(AT)aol.com
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides
Iceland Gulls
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 7:53pm
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This could be a L.g.glaucoides. The mantle is considerably paler than
adjacent Herring Gulls. L.g.kumlieni are typically slightly paler than
smithsonianus. My impressions of glaucoides Iceland Gulls from
photographs of numerous individuals is that the mantle is very close to
Glaucous Gull. Any remnant dark in the primaries on a pale-end kumlieni
is along the shafts of P10 and P9. This would not be visible in the
photographs provided. The apparent darker shade of gray on the outer
web of P10 must be the effect of the angle of lighting. The colour of
the basal two thirds of bill of Kumlien's is often greener than the
outer third, however many are equally yellow through all thirds. The
tight red gony spot below the cutting edge of the bill is so classic
Kumlien's. Probably the same for glaucoides. The bill size is middle of
the road for Kumlien's'.
The combination of small head and bill, long primary projection, clear
yellow iris and upper parts pale as Glaucous Gull are musts for defining
a glaucoides Iceland Gull. So far there is nothing short of a banded
bird on a breeding colony in Greenland that can guarantee the
subspecies.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Kenne
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 1:02 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] white-winged Kumlien's Gulls/glaucoides Iceland
Gulls
About a month ago, there was an interesting thread concerning Kumlien's
Iceland Gull's wingtip patterns. On a tangent, the discussion took on
the difficult subject of separating rare white-winged kumlieni from
glaucoides. This seems to be an incredibly difficult proposition even
for birders with extensive experience with Kumlien's in normal wintering
areas, let alone those of us landlocked in mid-continent with, at best,
only a handful of Iceland Gull sightings under our belts. This
identification discussion was especially difficult because it didn't
include any visuals for us to reference other than "look in Grant". As a
learning bird, how does the mid-continent Iceland Gull at
http://members.surfbest.net/digiscoping_stl(AT)surfbest.net/igull.htm fit
into the spectrum? Is this the look you need to see those hints of gray
in the primaries that would make it a "regular" pale Kumlien's, is this
a rare "white-winged" individual, or can't this be determined from this
type of folded-wing position? Maybe we need in-flight or wing-stretch
photos? If this truly is a bird without gray in the wingtips (as
observers stated), what are the features that, if I had enough
experience with Iceland, would give me the "feel" that this is or isn't
glaucoides?
Matthew Kenne
Algona, Iowa
mkenne(AT)netamumail.com
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Aging of Pacific Loons?
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 8:01pm
Hi Everyone,
In addition to a major invasion of Red-necked Grebe to coastal as well
as inland sites, birders on Long Island, New York are enjoying a fairly
cooperative PACIFIC LOON that was discovered last Saturday (1 Mar 2003)
by Dale Dyer. I've posted some photos of the bird on OceanWanderers.
http://www.oceanwanderers.com/NYPacLoon.html
I am intrigued by the white spotting on the scapulars of this bird (most
evident in the first picture on the web page). Could they provide a clue
to its age? Thin chinstrap on this bird is not particularly strong and
although visible from both side, was more clearly defined on the left
side of the neck compared to the right. The head shape was also
interesting, and might serve as a caution for those using head shape to
support claims of Arctic Loon.
In addition to the Captree bird, at least one Pacific Loon was also
reported from New Jersey during the preceding week. It is tempting to
speculate that the unusual weather conditions that forced hundreds of
Red-necked Grebes into New York might also have brought a few Pacific
Loons as well? We counted at least 13 Red-necked Grebes in the immediate
vicinity and there could have been more. A quick survey of Jones Inlet
revealed a further 8 birds. It is worth mentioning that on Saturday 1
March, Tony Lauro reported a possible sighting of another Pacific Loon
off Montauk Point, NY. This may be the long-staying individual
discovered by Tom Burke at the same location in late December. Clearly
the arrival of the Montauk bird preceded to the events leading to the
large influx of grebes.
Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City
http://www.oceanwanderers.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland Gull
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 4 Mar 2003 8:19pm
This bird is one year beneath an adult, probably an advanced third
winter. The white blotches in the wing coverts are the give away. The
suggestion of a dusky ring around the bill is also a sub-adult feature.
It would not be safe to identify designate this Iceland Gull to
subspecies.
Bruce
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu] On Behalf Of John Pogacnik
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:55 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Iceland Gull
Here is the link to an Iceland that had very pale wingtips:
http://www.aves.net/birdnews/mar2001b-gulls.html
It was photographed at Conneaut Ohio in March 2001. Conneaut is in
extreme
Northeast Ohio. I did not see any darkness in the wingtips on this
bird.
In Ohio, we are currently experiencing a mini invasion of Iceland gulls.
They were seen this weekend at a number of locations with a peak of at
least
13-15 individuals in Cleveland on Saturday. Two or three are typically
a
"good day" around here. Of the 13-15 birds at Cleveland, 8-10 were
first
year birds and 2 were second year.
John Pogacnik
4765 Lockwood Road
Perry Ohio, 44081
home 440-259-2751
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)DUTCHBIRDING.NL>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 2:54am
Hi all,
on the issue of Kumlien's and Thayer's Gulls, it seems as if some people
are trying to reinvent the wheel... We do not necessarily have to wait for
the new gull book by Olsen & Larsson - the information is already
available.
Variation in adult Thayer's Gull was thoroughly described by Steve Howell
and Martin Elliott in Alula (a Finnish birding magazine) over a year ago.
The article goes into a lot of detail, including the identification of
out-of-range birds. People who read the paper, may find that separating
adult Thayer's and Kumlien's Gulls is a daunting and far more complex task
than they initially thought (I know I did!). It is not simply a matter of
judging the darkness of the primaries; in fact, "Iceland Gulls" with
unambiguously blackish primaries occur, even as far east as Newfoundland.
Some birds also have slightly darker upperparts than Kumlien's Gull, and
may well be intergrades with Thayer's.
Birds with blackish primaries only differ from Thayer's Gull in some
subtle characters, i.e. size, structure, and the primary pattern.
Especially the pattern of p9 is important; in Thayer's, the outer web is
generally black all the way from the primary coverts to the white tip
because the white mirror is mostly confined to the inner web, while in
Kumlien's, the black is interrupted by the white mirror, which reaches far
onto the outer web. Also, in Thayer's, there is a black 'medial band'
(which means that the black bleeds onto the inner web, just above the
white mirror). The pattern on p5 may also be of help.
Here is the exact reference to the article:
Howell, S. & Elliott, M.; "Identification and Variation of Winter Adult
Thayer’s Gulls". Alula 2001/4, p. 130-146.
The Alula website (http://wwww.alula.fi) offers back issues at a cheap rate.
The Massachusetts bird
(http://hometown.aol.com/Scubasteve445/Windham.html) has the primary
pattern of a Kumlien's Gull. In addition, its primaries are clearly grey
when compared to the accompanying Am. Herring Gulls, so it is not even in
the darker extreme of the variation.
Another very detailed article, on the identification and variation of
adult Kumlien's Gulls (based on research in Newfoundland in winter) has
been written by Steve Howell and Bruce Mactavish. The paper is currently
in print, and will be published in the next issue of Alula.
Best regards,
Peter Adriaens
Belgium
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 8:19am
I am glad Peter Adriaens mentioned the Alula
article. It certainly presents a rigorous set
of criteria for separating Ad. Thayer's from Kumlien's
but does not seem to be mentioned much on this
side of the Atlantic. I tend to agree with John
Idzikowski that Thayer's on the east coast tend
to meet with less scepticism than Iceland Gull on the
west coast.
Below is a link to a putative Thayer's photographed
by Anthony Gonzon at the Cherry Island Landfill outside
of Wilmington DE on 3/1/03. This bird meets my uncritical
conception of what a Thayer's is supposed to look like.
Applying some of the criteria from the Alula article it seems
the isolated white mirror on P9 is a good mark in favor
of Thayer's, though does the apparent gray tones on the
inner web of P9 suggest the influence of Kumlien genes,
especially in addition to the lack of any black on P5?
Also the fairly rounded head, gentle expression and slim
bill could also be taken as signs of Kumlien genes though
perhaps it is also well within the range of a female Thayer's.
In my fairly limited experience with Ad Kumliens the tone
pattern and extent of head streaking seems atypical for
Kumlien's and matches photos I have seen of Thayer's.
Also note that the dark smudges on the bill appear to be
mud (it was a wet weekend) and this bird seems to be a full
adult?
This winter has been a good one for white-winged gulls at the
local dumps with counts of 15 more Kumliens in PA/NJ. However
with the larger number of individual present I am seeing a greater
range of variation than in previous years and am becoming less
confident of separating Thayer's from Kumliens. Since the DE bird
fits my image of adult Thayer's I would appreciate any comments
pro or con either on the list or off.
http://www.geocities.com/anthony_t_gonzon/Thayers.html
Best
Matt
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 8:41am
> Especially the pattern of p9 is important; in Thayer's, the outer web is
> generally black all the way from the primary coverts to the white tip
> because the white mirror is mostly confined to the inner web, while in
> Kumlien's, the black is interrupted by the white mirror, which reaches far
> onto the outer web. Also, in Thayer's, there is a black 'medial band'
> (which means that the black bleeds onto the inner web, just above the
> white mirror).
This is not true, or at least is a potentially misleading
oversimplification.
The primary pattern in Thayer's is quite variable, and in many the dark
on the outer web of p9 is broken, with the white mirror (or tongue)
extending completely accross the feather. Many Thayer's also do
not show any black bleeding into the inner web above any of the
tongues/mirrors. To speculate a little, my impression is that there
may be some male/female variation in amount of black in the
primaries of Thayer's, with females showing less, and the pattern
described above perhaps being more typical of males.
Cheers,
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Nominate Iceland Gull in NA
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 8:48am
Adding to the recent discussion about the occurrence of nominate Iceland
Gulls (Larus glaucoides glaucoides) in Canada and the United States. There
is a specimen of L. g. glaucoides from Ontario in the Canadian Museum of
Nature, which was identified by the late W. Earl Godfrey. It was collected
in Ottawa, Ontario on 28 November 1974. It is an adult female in definitive
basic plumage. This record was published in the April 1992 issue of Ontario
Birds 10(1):24-26.
Ron Pittaway
Minden, Ontario
Jean Iron
9 Lichen Place
Toronto ON M3A 1X3
416-445-9297
e-mail: jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: cormorant
From: "Diederik D'Hert" <Diederik_dhert(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 10:46am
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Dear all,
Some days ago this "little" cormorant has been found in Holland, and was =
seen the last two days in Belgium as well. As far as I know, the =
identification is not clear. I heard it is neither a pygmy cormorant =
nor a little cormorant. I thought about posting some pictures here, to =
speed up the identification ... anyone a suggestion ?
Pictures taken by Wim Heylen can be found at www.dutchbirding.nl =
=3D=3D> picture gallery=20
or at http://users.pandora.be/digiscoping/
Greetings,
Diederik D'Hert
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls
From: Matt Kenne <mkenne(AT)NETAMUMAIL.COM>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 11:03am
> This is not true, or at least is a potentially misleading
> oversimplification.
> The primary pattern in Thayer's is quite variable, and in many the dark
> on the outer web of p9 is broken, with the white mirror (or tongue)
> extending completely accross the feather. Many Thayer's also do
> not show any black bleeding into the inner web above any of the
> tongues/mirrors. To speculate a little, my impression is that there
> may be some male/female variation in amount of black in the
> primaries of Thayer's, with females showing less, and the pattern
> described above perhaps being more typical of males.
These identification features in the Alula article seem diluted by
"generally" and "mostly" in Peter Adriaens' post, and a look at Dennis
Paulson's wing photo site shows Phil Pickering's cautionary note well
founded:
Of the six Thayer's wings shown at
www.ups.edu/biology/museum/gullwings4.html (3 females and 3 males), one
female shows white almost, but not quite, all the way across the outer web
of P9. However, another female shows the white mirror on P9 almost
completely separated from the gray by black, and one male is without any
appreciable incursion of the black into the inner web above the P9 mirror.
As far as "The pattern on p5 may also be of help." goes re: Peter Adriaens'
summary from the Alula article, there doesn't seem to be any conclusions to
be drawn from this small sample of Thayer's wings. If this sample is at all
representational of the larger population, I don't see how P5 can be any
help at all. Perhaps the article in its entirety is more enlightening? How
about a review from those who've seen it? Do I need to pick up a back issue
of this Alula, or do I wait for Olsen and Larsson (if it ever comes out) and
see what arguments arise from that?
Not seeing real gulls, I have to rely on text.
Matthew Kenne
Algona, Iowa
mkenne(AT)netamumail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 11:19am
An example of a minimal-black Thayer's (Dec.) is at -
http://www.thebirdguide.com/gulls/thayers18.jpg
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: R: cormorant
From: Menotti Passarella <menotti.passarella(AT)LIBERO.IT>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 11:54am
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----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
According to me it'is a Pygmy Cormorant; check this out, photographed =
recently in Italy by Roberto Sauli:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?G4A832731
Regards
Menotti Passarella
Italy
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Diederik D'Hert=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 6:46 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] cormorant
Dear all,
=20
Some days ago this "little" cormorant has been found in Holland, and =
was seen the last two days in Belgium as well. As far as I know, the =
identification is not clear. I heard it is neither a pygmy cormorant =
nor a little cormorant. I thought about posting some pictures here, to =
speed up the identification ... anyone a suggestion ?
=20
Pictures taken by Wim Heylen can be found at www.dutchbirding.nl =
=3D=3D> picture gallery=20
or at http://users.pandora.be/digiscoping/
=20
Greetings,
=20
Diederik D'Hert
=20
=20
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Nominate Iceland Gull in NA
From: Tony Leukering <GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 2:23pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
In a message dated 3/5/2003 8:49:58 AM Mountain Standard Time,
jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA writes:
> Adding to the recent discussion about the occurrence of nominate Iceland
> Gulls (Larus glaucoides glaucoides) in Canada and the United States. There
> is a specimen of L. g. glaucoides from Ontario in the Canadian Museum of
> Nature, which was identified by the late W. Earl Godfrey. It was collected
> in Ottawa, Ontario on 28 November 1974. It is an adult female in definitive
> basic plumage. This record was published in the April 1992 issue of Ontario
> Birds 10(1):24-26.
Since this journal (Ontario Birds) is not all that widely available, perhaps
Jean/Ron could provide the rationale behind the specimen's identification as
nominate glaucoides. There is no question that our knowledge of distribution
and identification is much greater than it was 30 years ago, so I would
appreciate knowing whether the ID was based solely on white primaries or not.
Respectfully,
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
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Subject: Swallow wingspan rfi
From: Giff Beaton <giffbeaton(AT)MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 2:25pm
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Paul Sykes is looking for anyone who might have the measurement of wingspan
(or wingspread) in Mangove Swallow (Tachycineta albilina) and/or
White-rumped Swallow (T. leucorrhoa). As you might guess, this is part of
the research in preparation for writing the manuscript on the Mangrove
Swallow record from Viera FL last November. If you have this information or
know someone else who might, please send these measurements to Paul at:
Paul_Sykes(AT)usgs.gov
Thanks, Giff Beaton
Marietta GA
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Subject: Re: Aging of Pacific Loons?
From: Tony Leukering <GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 2:38pm
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Hi all:
The bird on Angus' website looks all the world like an adult to me. In my
experience here in CO, Pacific Loons in March are still in Juvenal plumage
with the pale fringing on the upperparts typical of that plumage. Angus'
bird also looks much neater and cleaner than any of the youngsters we see
here.
Regarding his comments on the vent strap on the bird: This is a VERY
difficult feature to assess correctly on a foraging bird. Both Arctic and
Pacific have dark areas on the flanks that extend to the legs and this can
easily be mis-interpreted as being the vent strap. It is far better to study
this mark on a preening bird that rolls away from the observer, as in my
picture on the CFO website of the Arctic in CO last fall (<A
HREF="www.cfo-link.org/leadpage.html">
www.cfo-link.org/leadpage.html</A> - follow the links through 'Bird Photos' and
'Arctic Loon ID Series' to the last picture).
Later,
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
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Subject: Re: ID of Nominate Iceland Gull in Ontario
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 5 Mar 2003 3:25pm
Tony Leukering asked how the nominate Iceland Gull from Ontario was
identified by W. Earl Godfrey. I was there when this bird was collected. It
was a tiny adult female (determined by dissection) with immaculate primary
tips, short slim bill, very pale Glaucous-like mantle, clear yellow eyes,
and pale winter spotting confined to the head and nape - all typical of
classic nominate birds. It jumps out in a series of kumlieni. The nice
thing about specimens is that they can always be evaluated again. Birders
visiting Ottawa should make arrangements to see this bird and the large
series of Thayer's and Kumlien's from the breeding grounds.
I've been to Greenland and high arctic Canada. Greenland is not far from
Baffin Island, just across the Davis Strait. I suspect that some of the
white-winged Kumlien's reported from Baffin are probably birds from
Greenland. These gulls move about a lot more than people think. Kumlien's
is regular in Iceland and Britain. Greenland birds also should be showing
up in North America. Interestingly, I was told that some of the Iceland
Gulls from Greenland in the Denmark museum show a "ghost" of a Kumlien's
wingtip pattern when held up to strong light. I look forward to the soon to
be published account of the Iceland Gull and Thayer's Gull (one account
treating both taxa I believe) in the BNA series by Richard Snell.
Warm regards,
Ron Pittaway (Jean gets back on Friday after a month in Honduras)
Minden and Toronto, Ontario
At 04:23 PM 3/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 3/5/2003 8:49:58 AM Mountain Standard Time,
>jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA writes:
>
>>Adding to the recent discussion about the occurrence of nominate Iceland
>>Gulls (Larus glaucoides glaucoides) in Canada and the United States. There
>>is a specimen of L. g. glaucoides from Ontario in the Canadian Museum of
>>Nature, which was identified by the late W. Earl Godfrey. It was collected
>>in Ottawa, Ontario on 28 November 1974. It is an adult female in definitive
>>basic plumage. This record was published in the April 1992 issue of Ontario
>>Birds 10(1):24-26.
>
>Since this journal (Ontario Birds) is not all that widely available,
>perhaps Jean/Ron could provide the rationale behind the specimen's
>identification as nominate glaucoides. There is no question that our
>knowledge of distribution and identification is much greater than it was
>30 years ago, so I would appreciate knowing whether the ID was based
>solely on white primaries or not.
>
>Respectfully,
>Tony Leukering
>Brighton, CO
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)DUTCHBIRDING.NL>
Date: 6 Mar 2003 3:39am
>> This is not true, or at least is a significant oversimplification.
Thayer's Gulls are
>> quite variable,
This is true, of course, which is exactly why I used the terms 'generally'
and 'mostly', well knowing that I was writing a quick and very basic
"summary" of the Alula article, off the top of my head.
To be more precise, the authors state that:
--> A dark medial band on the inner web of p9 occurred in 96% of the birds
they examined
--> A complete black outer edge to p9 occurred in 82% of the birds in
their sample.
The question is: can the remaining 4, respectively 18% be readily
identified when out of range ? Especially birds that belong to both of
these minority groups may mean trouble.
About the pattern on p5: this can be of help, but in a limited way.
According to the article, the majority of adult Thayer's Gulls show some
dark pattern on this primary. In quite a few birds, there is even a
complete black band here. A dark band on p5 is rare in Kumlien's Gull;
personally, I have seen only one such bird, in which the band was grey,
not black. So it seems that, with caution, an adult bird with a complete
black band on p5 is more likely to be a Thayer's than a Kumlien's Gull.
If anyone wants more precise details on this, such as exact percentages
etc., I can look them up.
To answer another question I received: yes, both the Thayer's Gull article
as well as the Kumlien's Gull article were based on birds in the exclusive
wintering areas, not the breeding grounds. Thayer's Gulls were studied on
the Californian coast, and Kumlien's Gulls in Newfoundland (where there
are still no definite records of Thayer's Gull). It is not research on the
breeding grounds, but it is the next best thing. Those who do not trust
research on the wintering grounds, may have to wait another so many years
(10+?) before they can read more. Perhaps it is not the invention of the
wheel, but both articles at least contribute significantly to our
knowledge of the variation in these gulls.
The authors also give their views on taxonomy.
Kind regards,
Peter
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: looking for vent straps on loons
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 6 Mar 2003 5:03am
Dear Tony et al,
I'd like to mention a potential pitfall when looking at the vent on a sunny
day at long distance: the dangling upper leg often casts a shadow across
the vent in a way that can look just like a vent strap (look at the photo
on Tony's site showing the vent, and imagine the sun at 12 O'clock rather
than 2 O'clock-ish) I was nearly fooled by this on a distant small,
cute-looking Common Loon a couple of years ago.
I also feel that the head shape on Angus' bird is the most extreme I've
seen on PALO, and would suggest that all BRCs take note of this benchmark!
Cheers,
Martin
At 3/5/2003 04:38 PM -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all:
>
>The bird on Angus' website looks all the world like an adult to me. In my
>experience here in CO, Pacific Loons in March are still in Juvenal plumage
>with the pale fringing on the upperparts typical of that plumage. Angus'
>bird also looks much neater and cleaner than any of the youngsters we see
here.
>
>Regarding his comments on the vent strap on the bird: This is a VERY
>difficult feature to assess correctly on a foraging bird. Both Arctic and
>Pacific have dark areas on the flanks that extend to the legs and this can
>easily be mis-interpreted as being the vent strap. It is far better to
>study this mark on a preening bird that rolls away from the observer, as
>in my picture on the CFO website of the Arctic in CO last fall
>(<www.cfo-link.org/leadpage.htm>www.cfo-link.org/leadpage.html - follow
>the links through 'Bird Photos' and 'Arctic Loon ID Series' to the last
>picture).
>
>Later,
>
>Tony Leukering
>Brighton, CO
Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Pacific Loon head shape
From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 6 Mar 2003 7:48am
At 06:05 AM 3/6/2003 -0600, Martin Reid wrote:
>I also feel that the head shape on Angus' bird is the most extreme I've
>seen on PALO, and would suggest that all BRCs take note of this benchmark!
>Cheers,
>Martin
The Captree Pacific Loon looks to me like it has some kind of injury or
other structural abnormality on its forehead. I do not believe that this
bird is showing the extreme of a gradual range of variation, but rather a
singular odd event.
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D.
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Kumlien's/Thayer's Gulls
From: Steven Mlodinow <SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 6 Mar 2003 10:23am
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Greetings All
To add to Iceland/Thayer's confusion-
At times, usually in late fall, hundreds of Thayer's Gulls concentrate near
Port Angeles on Washington's Olympic Peninsula. These birds are roosting, so
views of spread wings are limited. However, the folded wingtip is not-black
(varying shades of gray) in 10% or so of these birds. Some have folded
wingtips = in shade to the wing coverts. None of these birds are paler
mantled than the other more typical Thayer's. I think it unlikely that these
are all Thayer's X Iceland Gulls, especially given that Iceland Gull is very
rare in WA. Most likely, these are just part of the Thayer's Gull spectrum.
Cheers
Steve Mlodinow
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Subject: Re: Aging of Pacific Loons?
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 6 Mar 2003 11:33am
Just to follow up on the New York Pacific Loon, several people have
written to me pointing out that the white spotting on the rear of the
bird is on the wing coverts, not the scapulars as I originally stated.
Thanks for the correction! There is universal agreement that these spots
together with the absence of paler feather edges to the upper parts
(obvious on the references photos of a bird from California) indicate a
second year or older.
In terms of the head shape, I think there is something interesting here
and would value more input from folks on the west coast who see many
Pacific Loons under a variety of contexts. In the field I was convinced
that the feathers were being actively raised and that the bird would
flatten its profile before each dive. Glancing through all the shots I
took (most too awful for public consumption), I cannot find any that
show a convincingly smooth head. So it this a reflection of the bird's
'personnality' (e.g. its an extrovert loon or just plain excided about
the fishing) or the bump is some aspect of pathology? The loon was still
present at Captree as of yesterday and observers are encouraged to look
more carefully at the forehead to see if it changes shape.
Is anyone willing to donate Black-throated Diver (Arctic Loon) images
for comparison purposes?
Many thanks to Pat Lonergan, Mary Gustafson, Julian Hough, Tony
Leukering, Martin Reid and Kevin McGowan for comments on this bird and
Pacific Loon identification in general.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: A Murre from Wisconsin- Conclusion
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 6 Mar 2003 12:41pm
About 20 months ago the members of this group helped me identify a juvenile
Murre mount collected near Lake Michigan in Milwaukee, Wisconsin before
1900; the consensus was Thick-billed. It had been misidentified twice over
it's 100 years and that plus it's residence in an obscure teaching
collection away from the ornithological community kept it out of it's proper
place in the historical record until now.
The compelling, but unproveable possibility is that this bird was part of
the Great Murre Wreck which began in mid-Dec. of 1896 that resulted in
dozens of juvenile birds being found throughout the Great Lakes region as
far west as Iowa into January of 1897; it is thought that a combination of
very cold weather and early freezing of the St. Lawrence River after
Thanksgiving that year, a huge Low pressure system over New England plus a
decline in Capelin may have all coincided to produce this extraordinary
event. See the Thick-billed Murre account in Bent's Life Histories under
"Winter" for an introduction-
http://www.birdzilla.com/omnibus.asp?strType=Bent&strTitle=Thick%2Dbilled+Mu
rre&strURL=thick-billed_murre.html
There have been other, smaller wrecks of this species documented since 1900
until the early 1950's. I have assembled other accounts of the 1896 wreck
from specific states' histories in a paper- "Passenger Pigeon" 64(2002):3
(151-161) as well as the story of this bird. This species has now been
accepted for the Wisconsin State List by BRC decision based on this paper
and perhaps is the last specimen of the many vagrants that have been
described from this period.
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: small-type Canada Goose
From: Jon Feenstra <feenstra(AT)ITS.CALTECH.EDU>
Date: 7 Mar 2003 7:41am
To bring back some goose talk, here is a link to some photos of a small-type
Canada Goose taken by me about a month ago in Los Angeles County, CA. It
was associating with a group of large domestic geese.
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~feenstra/img_ca_2003/CGoose_SantaFe.html
Based on the field guides that I've consulted regarding this bird, it's not
clear to me whether it belongs to the "Cackling" or "Aleutian" subspecies.
What do you think?
Jon Feenstra
www.its.caltech.edu/~feenstra
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Summer Tanager behavior
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 7 Mar 2003 8:40am
Under Summer Tanager, on page 462 of "The Sibley Guide to Birds" Sibley
mentions that the tail is often raised. This note is appended to, and
shown only in the illustration of the "Adult female Western" which is
presumably the subspecies P. r. cooperi.
Is this intended to show a difference in behavior between the two
subspecies, or is it a generalized behavior for all populations?
Thanks in advance.
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
SF Spring Birding Classes - Feb 4 http://fog.ccsf.org/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: small-type Canada Goose
From: Elias Elias <eliaselias(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 7 Mar 2003 8:32am
We have thousands of Aleutian Geese in the fields surrounding our town now. We
have a few Cackling Geese too.
I feel confident that Paul Springer-one of the primary people in bringing the
ALEGOO back from extinction-would call this an Aleut. The way he explained it
to me is ALGO have pale breasts while CACGOO have dark breasts. The CACGOO
breast color is dark brown verging on a maroonish-purple similer to Pyle's _ID
Guide to NA Passerines_ or to Roberson's _Rare Birds of the West Coast_. While
the ALGO is like your photos.
Note also the bulge on the forehead. Apparently this is a gland that processes
salt water! And restricted to the ALGO.
Let's have a round of Applause for the ESA.
If your interested in learning more about the Aleut,
http://www.redwoodlink.com/soar/
Elias Elias
Arcata CA 95521
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Feenstra [SMTP:feenstra(AT)ITS.CALTECH.EDU]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 06:39
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] small-type Canada Goose
To bring back some goose talk, here is a link to some photos of a small-type
Canada Goose taken by me about a month ago in Los Angeles County, CA. It
was associating with a group of large domestic geese.
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~feenstra/img_ca_2003/CGoose_SantaFe.html
Based on the field guides that I've consulted regarding this bird, it's not
clear to me whether it belongs to the "Cackling" or "Aleutian" subspecies.
What do you think?
Jon Feenstra
www.its.caltech.edu/~feenstra
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Great Gulls!
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 8 Mar 2003 11:09am
Dear Friends,
Martin Reid has been so kind as to display some pictures of gulls I made
last November shortly after a severe storm from southerly directions had hit
our part of the world. The pictures show three immature gulls. Gull a and c
were photographed late afternoon of 4th November 2002 at the Brouwersdam, SW
Netherlands (51.45N 03.50N) while gull b was photographed in the early
morning of 5th November 2002 at Westkapelle, SW Netherlands (51.32N 03.26E).
You can find the pictures at the address below and I would very much like to
hear your views on these remarkable individuals.
Norman
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp32.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Gull help requested
From: Nick Komar <quetzal65(AT)ATTBI.COM>
Date: 8 Mar 2003 5:44pm
Photos of a first-basic gull that I saw in February in Oahu (Hawaii) are
posted at
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hawaiibirding/vwp?.dir=/2003+Photograph
s&.src=gr&.dnm=Komar+Gull+1.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.c
om/group/hawaiibirding/lst%3f%26.dir=/2003%2bPhotographs%26.src=gr%26.view=t
(clicking on this link brings up the first of three photos).
I suspect "Vega" Gull (Larus argenteus vegae) because of the bright white
rump in constrast with a dark mantle. I have no experience with this
species. Can a Vega Gull expert comment on whether other features support
the identification? Vega Gull is extrememly rare in Oahu (possibly never
reported).
I'd be interested in opinions as to the identity of this gull. Thanks.
Nick Komar
Fort Collins CO
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