ID-FRONTIERS for May 1-10, 2003

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Florida White-tipped Dove   Barbara Passmore    Thu, 1 May 2003   7:15am   subspecific variation in Red-legged Honeycreeper   John Puschock    Fri, 2 May 2003   7:43am   Re: subspecific variation in Red-legged Honeycreeper   Joseph Morlan    Fri, 2 May 2003   8:40am   Re: subspecific variation in Red-legged Honeycreeper   Ian Paulsen    Fri, 2 May 2003   9:56am   Origin of Red-legged Honeycreeper   Floyd Hayes    Sat, 3 May 2003   7:00pm   Re: Origin of Red-legged Honeycreeper   Tony Gallucci    Sat, 3 May 2003   8:15pm   Provenance of Red-legged Honeycreepers   Bill Pranty    Sat, 3 May 2003   9:45pm   Re: Origin of Red-legged Honeycreeper   Kenn Kaufman    Sun, 4 May 2003   12:04am   Re: Origin of Red-legged Honeycreeper   Allen Chartier    Sun, 4 May 2003   4:49am   Origin of Red-Legged Honeycreeper   Brian Monk    Mon, 5 May 2003   6:52pm   Monterey Gull   David Vander Pluym    Wed, 7 May 2003   5:20pm   Allen/Rufous Hummingbirds   KACastelein and DJLa   Sat, 10 May 2003   9:40am

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Subject: Florida White-tipped Dove
From: Barbara Passmore <bkpass(AT)BELLSOUTH.NET>
Date: 1 May 2003 7:15am

The digest shows no photo of the Florida White-tipped Dove.
Late yesterday, Larry Manfredi posted one on his own website
at http://www.southfloridabirding.com/White-tippeddove170.jpg

He has also generously agreed for it to be posted on the website
for FLORIDABIRDS-L at http://bkpass.tripod.com/floridabirds.htm

The photographers of Florida have posted many of the rarities
on our list's website and we are very glad to share them with you.
We have an especially good collection of  the Key West FLorida
Slaty-backed Gull photos.

Barbara Passmore
Listowner, FLORIDABIRDS-L


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Subject: subspecific variation in Red-legged Honeycreeper
From: John Puschock <g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 2 May 2003 7:43am

I just returned from seeing the alternate-plumaged male Red-legged
Honeycreeper (Cyanerpes cyaneus) that's at Dry Tortugas Nat'l Park, Florida.
  (It was still there as of 12:45 PM, May 1.)

I got excellent looks at it, except I only briefly noticed the undertail
coverts.  They appeared black, though it was a quick and somewhat distant
look.

Upon returning home, I see that "A Guide to the Birds of Mexico and Northern
Central America" (Howell and Webb) shows the Mexican form (C. c. carneipes)
with blue undertail coverts, but "A Guide to the Birds of the West Indies"
(Raffaele et al.) shows it with black undertail coverts.  Is the
honeycreeper on Cuba a different subspecies?  Do the undertail coverts of
the honeycreeper actually differ between Cuba and Mexico?

I would think Cuba would seem to be the most likely origin of this bird, but
with White-tipped Dove (?), "Mexican" Cave Swallows, Mangrove Swallow, and a
west-coast Bananaquit all occurring in Florida during the past 6 months or
so, all probably/possibly from the Yucatan, a Mexican origin for the
honeycreeper could be just as likely.

John Puschock
g_g_allin(AT)hotmail.com

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Subject: Re: subspecific variation in Red-legged
         Honeycreeper
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 2 May 2003 8:40am

On Fri, 2 May 2003 14:43:35 +0000, John Puschock <g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:

>Upon returning home, I see that "A Guide to the Birds of Mexico and Northern
>Central America" (Howell and Webb) shows the Mexican form (C. c. carneipes)
>with blue undertail coverts, but "A Guide to the Birds of the West Indies"
>(Raffaele et al.) shows it with black undertail coverts.  Is the
>honeycreeper on Cuba a different subspecies?  Do the undertail coverts of
>the honeycreeper actually differ between Cuba and Mexico?

The Cuban birds are supposedly the same subspecies as the Mexican birds.
However, Ridgway (1902) noted:

"If any form is to be separated it seems to me that the Cuban birds should
be thus distinguished, for the few females from that island which I have
seen appear to be considerably paler and more uniform in color beneath than
any others."  However, no such Cuban subspecies has been described as far
as I can tell.

The large number of escaped cage-birds may also cloud the issue and
Raffaele et al. suggest the Cuban birds were probably introduced.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
California Birding & new rarities http://fog.ccsf.org/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/


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Subject: Re: subspecific variation in Red-legged
         Honeycreeper
From: Ian Paulsen <ipaulsen(AT)KRL.ORG>
Date: 2 May 2003 9:56am

HI:
 according to the Islers Tanager book: Carneipes is the only subspecies
occurring outside of South America.

Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
ipaulsen(AT)krl.org
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way"


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Subject: Origin of Red-legged Honeycreeper
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 3 May 2003 7:00pm

Are honeycreepers really kept as cagebirds?
Seed-eating birds (especially Sporophila and
Oryzoborus) with attractive songs are fashionable as
cagebirds in Trinidad and Tobago, where several
species have become extirpated or are on the brink of
extirpation. Yet despite four common species of
honeycreepers there (Red-legged Honeycreeper, Purple
Honeycreeper, Green Honeycreeper and Blue Dacnis), I
have never seen or heard of anybody keeping one as a
cagebird.

Several months ago I learned that a male Red-legged
Honeycreeper turned up in St. John (sparsely
populated, >50% a national park), US Virgin Islands, a
few years ago. It seems to me that escaped cagebirds
are more likely to show up in densely populated urban
areas than sparsely populated islands in the Florida
Keys and Virgin Islands. In Trinidad and Tobago they
turn up in just about every habitat, including small
offshore islands.

-Floyd

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Subject: Re: Origin of Red-legged Honeycreeper
From: Tony Gallucci <hurricanetg(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 3 May 2003 8:15pm

i have neither information nor opinion on the current honeycreeper
individual.

what i do have is a database where i have tried to keep up with the legal
bird trade across the US, and in Texas in particular. my notes date back to
the 1970s.

Red-legged Honeycreepers do appear in the trade, along with hummingbirds and
other nectar feeders one might not expect. i have not seen one personally
since 1997 (in the trade that is), but i suspect they are out there if
someone wants one.

the national database shows US zoos reporting a number of honeycreepers as
of May 2, 2003.

This includes 57 individuals in the genus Dacnis; and 74 individual
Cyanerpes, of which 62 were Red-legged Honeycreepers.

tony gallucci
hunt, kerr county, texas

p.o. box 6
camp verde, texas 78010-5006

HurricaneTG(AT)hotmail.com (personal)
SevenBullsBoy(AT)hotmail.com (writing)
SwallowtailedKite(AT)hotmail.com (Texas Nature Writers)
WidowRecluse(AT)hotmail.com (literary submissions)

http://fly.to/SevenBullsBoy
http://flying.to/KerrFauna
         The Fauna & Flora of Kerr and Trinity Cos., Texas
http://TexasNature.rulestheweb.com
         The Best of Texas Nature Writers

From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Reply-To: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Origin of Red-legged Honeycreeper
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 19:00:03 -0700

Are honeycreepers really kept as cagebirds?
Seed-eating birds (especially Sporophila and
Oryzoborus) with attractive songs are fashionable as
cagebirds in Trinidad and Tobago, where several
species have become extirpated or are on the brink of
extirpation. Yet despite four common species of
honeycreepers there (Red-legged Honeycreeper, Purple
Honeycreeper, Green Honeycreeper and Blue Dacnis), I
have never seen or heard of anybody keeping one as a
cagebird.

Several months ago I learned that a male Red-legged
Honeycreeper turned up in St. John (sparsely
populated, >50% a national park), US Virgin Islands, a
few years ago. It seems to me that escaped cagebirds
are more likely to show up in densely populated urban
areas than sparsely populated islands in the Florida
Keys and Virgin Islands. In Trinidad and Tobago they
turn up in just about every habitat, including small
offshore islands.

-Floyd

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Subject: Provenance of Red-legged Honeycreepers
From: Bill Pranty <billpranty(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 3 May 2003 9:45pm

Hi Floyd and others,

As one with a great interest in cataloging, documenting, and monitoring
exotic birds, I'm always wary of "wild" claims of birds that are kept as
pets, especially when vagrancy is poorly known (or undocumented entirely).

However, given the extreme rarity of Red-legged Honeycreepers in captivity
(only one bird -- a female at Tampa -- in Florida currently, according to
ISIS**), and the island locations of the two birds -- in National Parks, no
less -- allows me to presume natural provenances for both birds.

Whether or not the seasonality of both occurrences, during northward
migration of tens of millions of Neotropical migrants, is relevant will
depend on additional occurrences in North America.

But admittedly, the presence of male Red-legged Honeycreepers at two keys on
opposite coasts of Florida within a five-week period is quite amazing.

** ISIS: the International Species System <http://wwww.isis.org> is an
incredible resource. The following is taken from theirebsite:

"I.S.I.S. (International Species Information System) is a computer-based
information system for wild animal species held in captivity. The ISIS
central database contains information on over 1.65 million zoological
animals of nearly 15,000+ taxa, approximately 10,000 species held in 586
institutions in 72 countries on 6 continents..."

Best regards,

Bill Pranty
Avon Park, Florida
<billpranty(AT)hotmail.com>

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Subject: Re: Origin of Red-legged Honeycreeper
From: Kenn Kaufman <kennk(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 4 May 2003 12:04am

I've been traveling so I haven't followed the whole discussion, but I
don't recall seeing anyone mention that Red-legged Honeycreepers are
quite migratory within Mexico, largely vacating the northern parts of
their range in winter.  There are large numbers of individuals that take
part in this movement.  I have been on the Pacific Coast of Chiapas in
spring and have seen the honeycreepers migrating, evidently heading up to
cross the Isthmus of Tehuantepec to the Caribbean slope -- tight flocks
of up to a couple of dozen birds, flying fast and low, migrating in the
daytime, along the same route as flocks of White-winged Doves,
Scissor-tailed Flycatchers, and birds of prey.  The movement of
Red-legged Honeycreepers is extensive enough that I have been expecting
this species to show up in Texas for some time.  Getting to Florida is a
little more of a leap, but I see no reason why the Florida birds
shouldn't be genuine wild vagrants from the migratory Mexican population
or from Cuba.

Kenn Kaufman
Tucson, AZ


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Subject: Re: Origin of Red-legged Honeycreeper
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 4 May 2003 4:49am

Floyd,

You asked:

> Are honeycreepers really kept as cagebirds?

I don't know about private individuals, but just about every zoo I've ever
visited has had Red-legged Honeycreepers on display, so I'd say it is a
common bird in captivity.

Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI  48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet/index.htm


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Subject: Origin of Red-Legged Honeycreeper
From: Brian Monk <Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 5 May 2003 6:52pm

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Finally, a topic on which I have some expertise.  As an avian veterinarian, I
keep up with the private sector and the various populations of birds that
they keep.  You would be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) at the number of
undocumented individuals and even species that are kept privately by
individuals as breeding animals or even pets.  Good examples that I can think
of off hand are Bali Mynahs, Ultramarine Lorikeets, and Thick-billed Parrots.
 I know of several keepers of these exceedingly rare birds that do not
participate in any regulated or annotated program.  Red-legged Honeycreepers
are routinely kept in private collections in the U.S., breed well in even
mixed aviaries, and are not required to be listed with any government agency.

Brian Monk, DVM
Destin, FL
monkpiper(AT)aol.com
850-650-6158

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Subject: Monterey Gull
From: David Vander Pluym <SCRE(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 7 May 2003 5:20pm

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Hi all I'm posting this once again as I received no comments on the bird I
posted at <A
HREF="http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/psyfrmcali/lst?.dir=/Robert%27s+Lake+Gull&.view=t">
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/psyfrmcali/lst?.dir=/Robert%27s+Lake+Gull&.view=t</A>
The bird in question is the one with its bill down in the first picture and
the near bird in the last two.  If anyone wants I can send them the copies I
have on my computer which are of better quality.  Once again I found the bird
at Robert's Lake Monterey County California on April 20th.  The bird was
about the size of a California Gull maybe a little bigger but was noticeably
smaller than nearby Western Gulls.  The dark gray scaps (as gray as nearby
Western's maybe between occidentalis and wymani) would rule out smithsonianus
and any other Herring Gull, while the small size white head with dark near
the eye and lack of secondary skirt would rule out Western.  The bill seemed
thick but with no real gonydeal angle (maybe about the same as a Herring
Gull's bill).  The primaries seem to short for Lesser Black-backed Gull and
the coverts seem to? brown.  This really leaves me searching for an answer as
I can't think of any North American gull or hybrid combination that matches
this bird.  I thought of Heuglin's Gull but know almost nothing about this
species? and it didn't seem to quite match.  Anyone have any ideas??

David Vander Pluym
UC Santa Cruz, California

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Subject: Allen/Rufous Hummingbirds
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 10 May 2003 9:40am

Folks,

We happen to live in Coos Cty Oregon where in the southern part of the
county is the northern range of Allen's Hummingbird, and the northern
part of the county is the southern range of Rufous Hummingbird.  It is
known that Rufous Hummingbirds can and do show a variable amount of
green feathering on the back.  Looking at Sibley's guide and the
National Geo Guide, one gets the impression that Allen's always shows a
solid green back, and Rufous can vary.  Sibley, and others, indicate
that the display of the two species is different, and that this
distinguishes the species.

On 5/9/03 we were studying some displaying males in southwestern Coos
Cty who were displaying like Allen's.  These males had some green on
their backs, but the amount of green looked limited to the upper back,
and faded into all red feathers on the mid back.  These males appeared
to look like green backed Rufous due to the limited amount of green on
their backs.

Are Allen's as variable as Rufous are in the amount of green on the
back?  In Northern California, are all Allen's solidly greened back?
Can one safely assume that the display of the species is definitive?

We hope to study more birds around the county.  Of course, we could be
seeing hybrids, and maybe the birds we are seeing are not identifiable
to species.  But if they display, does that make them identifiable?

Cheers
Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com