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ID-FRONTIERS for October 12-18, 2003
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Re: [BIRDWG05] NM Henslow's Sparrow & Royal Tern | Tony Gallucci | Mon, 13 Oct 2003 | 9:09pm |
| FW: [BIRDWG05] NM Henslow's Sparrow &
Royal Tern | Chris Benesh | Mon, 13 Oct 2003 | 10:50pm |
| Re: [BIRDWG05] NM Henslow's Sparrow & Royal Tern | Kobe 8 | Wed, 15 Oct 2003 | 1:23am |
| Eared or Horned Grebe? | KACastelein and DJLa | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 8:53am |
| Re: Eared or Horned Grebe? | Kevin J. McGowan | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 9:33am |
| Re: Eared or Horned Grebe? | Gary Potter | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 9:40am |
| Re: Eared or Horned Grebe? | Peter Adriaens | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 9:41am |
| Re: Eared or Horned Grebe? | Harry Lehto | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 10:26am |
| Re: Eared or Horned Grebe? | Steve Sosensky | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 11:39am |
| Eared or Horned Grebe | KACastelein and DJLa | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 12:37pm |
| Re: Eared or Horned Grebe? | Matt White | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 12:52pm |
| Eared or Horned Grebe | KACastelein and DJLa | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 12:58pm |
| Re: Eared or Horned Grebe? | Harry Lehto | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 12:58pm |
| Re: Eared or Horned Grebe? | Steve Hampton | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 4:40pm |
| Tangara-like birds in St-Pierre-et-Miquelon | Pascal ASSELIN | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 5:18pm |
| Re: Eared or Horned Grebe | DAVID IRONS | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 6:21pm |
| Re: Eared or Horned Grebe? | Steve Sosensky | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 8:44pm |
| Eared Grebe | David Vander Pluym | Thu, 16 Oct 2003 | 10:22pm |
| Eared or horned | Paul Larkin | Fri, 17 Oct 2003 | 1:04am |
| Re: Tangara-like birds in St-Pierre-et-Miquelon | Kevin J. McGowan | Fri, 17 Oct 2003 | 6:20am |
| Re: Unidentified gadfly petrel from Hawaii | Angus Wilson | Fri, 17 Oct 2003 | 8:39am |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG05] NM Henslow's Sparrow & Royal Tern
From: Tony Gallucci <hurricanetg(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 13 Oct 2003 9:09pm
Jerry Oldenettel has kindly posted photos of a New Mexico tern that is being
billed as New Mexico's first Royal Tern. In at least one (the first) photo,
the bird appears to me to be a better fit for Elegant Tern (which would be
about New Mexico's third). I'd like others to comment who have recent
familiarity with both (my Elegant contact dates to the late 1970s/early
1980s).
Jerry's home page is at http://hometown.aol.com/borealowl
the photos are posted on http://hometown.aol.com/borealowl/Rtern.jpg
original email below.
tony g
tony gallucci
hunt, kerr county, texas
http://flying.to/KerrFauna
http://TexasNature.rulestheweb.com
From: "Jerry R. Oldenettel" <Borealowl(AT)AOL.COM>
Reply-To: Borealowl(AT)AOL.COM
To: BIRDWG05(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG05] NM Henslow's Sparrow & Royal Tern
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:38:34 EDT
I have posted photos of NM's first Henslow's Sparrow at the Clabber Hill
Ranch in San MIguel Co. (031010) and yesterday's Royal Tern (031012, also a
first
for NM) at Cochiti Lake in Sandoval Co.
http://hometown.aol.com/borealowl
Jerry R. Oldenettel
Socorro, NM
borealowl(AT)aol.com
_________________________________________________________________
Want to check if your PC is virus-infected? Get a FREE computer virus scan
online from McAfee.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: FW: [BIRDWG05] NM Henslow's Sparrow &
Royal Tern
From: Chris Benesh <cdbenesh(AT)COX.NET>
Date: 13 Oct 2003 10:50pm
Hi all,
Per Tony's request.
Chris
------ Forwarded Message
From: "Tony Gallucci" <hurricanetg(AT)hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:26:20 -0500
To: cdbenesh(AT)cox.net
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] [BIRDWG05] NM Henslow's Sparrow & Royal Tern
Thanks for that info Chris -- i'd hope you would post this to the list.
tony g
From: Chris Benesh <cdbenesh(AT)cox.net>
To: Tony Gallucci <hurricanetg(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] [BIRDWG05] NM Henslow's Sparrow & Royal Tern
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:05:03 -0700
Hi Tony,
I get to see both of these species on an annual basis, though I see Elegant
Tern less often then when I lived in California. While I would be the first
to admit that the identification of these Sterna terns is quite tricky, the
photos from New Mexico seem a better fit for Royal than Elegant. Though the
bill may not be as deep-based as some Royal bills, I still get the
impression that it is a substantial bill. It appears rather thick
throughout its length, tapering just close to the tip. It also has a more
pronounced (yet subtle) gonydeal angle compared with a typical Elegant. The
crest does not appear overly long to me, and the pattern of black feathering
around the eye and post-ocular region seems much more typical of Royal than
Elegant. I realize that all of this is a bit subjective, without direct
comparisons with other species, but no red flags went up for me regarding
the ID.
See the following link for a comparative Elegant Tern profile:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ghrosenberg/ElegantTern2.jpg
Best,
Chris
-------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Benesh Minds are like parachutes. They
(32°09.512N,110°46.248W) only function when they are open.
Tucson, Arizona James Dewar
cdbenesh(AT)cox.net
On 10/13/03 9:09 PM, "Tony Gallucci" <hurricanetg(AT)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Jerry Oldenettel has kindly posted photos of a New Mexico tern that is
being
> billed as New Mexico's first Royal Tern. In at least one (the first)
photo,
> the bird appears to me to be a better fit for Elegant Tern (which would
be
> about New Mexico's third). I'd like others to comment who have recent
> familiarity with both (my Elegant contact dates to the late 1970s/early
> 1980s).
>
> Jerry's home page is at http://hometown.aol.com/borealowl
>
> the photos are posted on http://hometown.aol.com/borealowl/Rtern.jpg
>
> original email below.
>
> tony g
>
>
> tony gallucci
> hunt, kerr county, texas
> http://flying.to/KerrFauna
> http://TexasNature.rulestheweb.com
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed
Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers.
https://broadband.msn.com
------ End of Forwarded Message
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG05] NM Henslow's Sparrow & Royal Tern
From: Kobe 8 <LTJaeger4(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 15 Oct 2003 1:23am
The tern in the photos is undeniably a Royal Tern. Without going into the
plumage details or discussion of the location of the black in the crown in
relation to the eye, the bill is far too large to be an Elegant.
Clay Kempf
Santa Cruz, CA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Eared or Horned Grebe?
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 8:53am
Folks,
Take a look at these photos http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/grebe.htm
This bird is causing a lot of confusion in Oregon. What do you think?
Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eared or Horned Grebe?
From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 9:33am
At 08:55 AM 10/16/2003 -0700, Dave Lauten wrote:
>Folks,
>
>Take a look at these photos http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/grebe.htm
>
>This bird is causing a lot of confusion in Oregon. What do you think?
>
Looks like an Eared Grebe to me. The fluffy, raised rump is a good clue,
as is the peaked head. Bill size is surprisingly variable. I see nothing
that looks like Horned here.
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D.
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eared or Horned Grebe?
From: Gary Potter <GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 9:40am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
In addition to the comments by Kevin, the bill does not have the white tip
shown by Horned Grebe. I definitely agree that it is an Eared Grebe -- Gary
Gary W. Potter
Sanger, Fresno Co., CA
GWPOTT(AT)aol.com
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eared or Horned Grebe?
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 9:41am
Taking into account not only head pattern, but also head shape, this looks
like an Eared Grebe to me.
> Folks,
>
> Take a look at these photos http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/grebe.htm
>
> This bird is causing a lot of confusion in Oregon. What do you think?
>
> Dave Lauten
> Bandon OR
> birdsong(AT)harborside.com
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eared or Horned Grebe?
From: Harry Lehto <hlehto(AT)OJ287.ASTRO.UTU.FI>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 10:26am
Dave et al,
>
> Take a look at these photos http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/grebe.htm
> This bird is causing a lot of confusion in Oregon. What do you think?
Horned grebe. The two first points I think are rather solid. Either one of
would positively identify a Horned. teh two latter are more subjective.
1) The tip of the bill looks pale in image 1 and 5
2) The between the eye and the bill, shows in the darker area above teh
main demacration line in the facial region.
3) also the bill appear large, neck quite thick and and the contrast
between foreneck and rearneck too strong for eared.
4) In my mind teh pale area of the head suggests a winter plumage horned
rather than an eared grebe, which should show behind the eye below the
eye-line
Harry J Lehto
hlehto(AT)utu.fi
Finland
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eared or Horned Grebe?
From: Steve Sosensky <Steve(AT)SOSENSKY.COM>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 11:39am
Harry,
You need to look at basic structure before you get into the fine details. I
see nothing here to make this bird a Horned Grebe. We get lots of grebes
that look like this in So Cal in the fall. Inexperienced (and even
sometimes experienced) birders try to make them into Horned Grebes until
there is a real Horned Grebe to observe. Then all doubt goes away.
1. The head of an Eared Grebe, as seen in these photos, has an aspect ratio
(horizontal vs. vertical dimensions) very close to 1:1. Heads of Horned
Grebes have an aspect ratio closer to 3:2. IOW, the head of an Eared Grebe
looks roundish, the head of a Horned Grebe is oval or flat looking. By
extension, the forehead of an Eared has a steep angle, and that of a Horned
has a more shallow angle.
2. The neck of an Eared Grebe is longer in comparison to the body, maybe
about 2:3 or 3:4. The same proportions on a Horned Grebe are closer to 1:2.
Obviously, you have to wait until the neck is extended to make this
determination.
3. Eared Grebes have very high backs. They look humped. Horned Grebes have
much flatter backs. The shape of the bodies seem to mirror the shapes of
the heads in these birds.
4. In response to your point 3), the plumage on the neck of a Horned Grebe
would be white across the entire front instead of only a few degrees of
white with the rest of the neck dark.
5. The face pattern is also wrong for Horned. Here, the eye is entirely
surrounded by dark feathers. On a Horned Grebe, the white of the cheek
should come up to the lower edge of the eye.
The bird in these photos fits Eared Grebe on all these points.
At 05:07 PM 2003-10-16 +0300, Harry Lehto wrote:
>Dave et al,
> >
> > Take a look at these photos http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/grebe.htm
> > This bird is causing a lot of confusion in Oregon. What do you think?
>Horned grebe. The two first points I think are rather solid. Either one of
>would positively identify a Horned. teh two latter are more subjective.
>1) The tip of the bill looks pale in image 1 and 5
>2) The between the eye and the bill, shows in the darker area above teh
>main demacration line in the facial region.
>
>3) also the bill appear large, neck quite thick and and the contrast
>between foreneck and rearneck too strong for eared.
>4) In my mind teh pale area of the head suggests a winter plumage horned
>rather than an eared grebe, which should show behind the eye below the
>eye-line
Good birding,
Steve Sosensky, SoCA Bird Guides www.sosensky.com/guides/
<mailto:steve(AT)sosensky.com> for general use
<mailto:mobile(AT)sosensky.com> rare birds and emergencies only
Toluca Lake, CA 91602 818-508-4946 34.15645 N, 118.36715 W
www.SoCalAudubon.org/socal/ www.SanFernandoValleyAudubon.org/sfvas/
SoCal FRS: use channel 11 code 22 SMS: stevesosensky(AT)vtext.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Eared or Horned Grebe
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 12:37pm
Folks,
Thanks for all the responses so far. Just to make a couple of things
clear about me, I did not see the bird, I'm just forwarding it and thus
forwarding your responses to Oregon Birders On Line where there is quite
the discussion about the bird. It was first IDed as an Eared, until
someone suggested it might not be, which made everyone jump up and think
about it. It really is a good excercise in learning, so we really
appreciate all your comments.
And for the record, my opinion is it is an Eared Grebe, for all the
reasons already stated by several people. I would agree with Steve
Sosensky in that if it was next to a Horned, I think it would make it
easier. This is one of those cases where a lone bird on a pond at some
distance becomes tricky because there isn't much to compare it too. It
is also one of those cases where normally we ID the bird quickly because
our minds click into autodrive - we take a brief look, and years worth
of birding subconsciously tells us, based on what else is around, that
this bird is a such and such. But then, when such and such is alone,
and the mind suddenly loses the autopilot comparison thing, and suddenly
we find ourselves asking, just what are the field marks of a such and
such....and well maybe it isn't a such and such...or is it a such and
such....leading to a series of double guessing and rechecking
and......get my point?
Keep the opinions coming, I'm not sure all Oregonians are convinced - yet.
Cheers
Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eared or Horned Grebe?
From: Matt White <mkwhite(AT)903INTERNET.COM>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 12:52pm
This is certainly an Eared Grebe and I agree wholeheartily with Steve's
approach here. Here in northeast Texas we get thousands of Horned Grebes
throughout the winter and finding the Eared Grebe in the lot is the
challenge because they are decidedly uncommon. One thing that always seems
to work for me is a that there seems to me to be a similarity between the
pointed bill on an Eared Grebe and that on a Red-throated Loon while the
Horned Grebe has a more Common Loon - like bill. I know the analogy may be
a little crude but it seems to work for me. In the second photo from the
top, notice how sharp the bill is while in the third, the similarity with
Red-throated Loon seems apparent. Just for the record, I saw my first three
Horned Grebes of the winter this morning and they look nothing like this
bird.
Matt White
The Birds of Northeast Texas
Campbell Texas
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Sosensky <Steve(AT)SOSENSKY.COM>
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Eared or Horned Grebe?
>Harry,
>
>You need to look at basic structure before you get into the fine details. I
>see nothing here to make this bird a Horned Grebe. We get lots of grebes
>that look like this in So Cal in the fall. Inexperienced (and even
>sometimes experienced) birders try to make them into Horned Grebes until
>there is a real Horned Grebe to observe. Then all doubt goes away.
>
>1. The head of an Eared Grebe, as seen in these photos, has an aspect ratio
>(horizontal vs. vertical dimensions) very close to 1:1. Heads of Horned
>Grebes have an aspect ratio closer to 3:2. IOW, the head of an Eared Grebe
>looks roundish, the head of a Horned Grebe is oval or flat looking. By
>extension, the forehead of an Eared has a steep angle, and that of a Horned
>has a more shallow angle.
>
>2. The neck of an Eared Grebe is longer in comparison to the body, maybe
>about 2:3 or 3:4. The same proportions on a Horned Grebe are closer to 1:2.
>Obviously, you have to wait until the neck is extended to make this
>determination.
>
>3. Eared Grebes have very high backs. They look humped. Horned Grebes have
>much flatter backs. The shape of the bodies seem to mirror the shapes of
>the heads in these birds.
>
>4. In response to your point 3), the plumage on the neck of a Horned Grebe
>would be white across the entire front instead of only a few degrees of
>white with the rest of the neck dark.
>
>5. The face pattern is also wrong for Horned. Here, the eye is entirely
>surrounded by dark feathers. On a Horned Grebe, the white of the cheek
>should come up to the lower edge of the eye.
>
>The bird in these photos fits Eared Grebe on all these points.
>
>At 05:07 PM 2003-10-16 +0300, Harry Lehto wrote:
>>Dave et al,
>> >
>> > Take a look at these photos
http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/grebe.htm
>> > This bird is causing a lot of confusion in Oregon. What do you think?
>>Horned grebe. The two first points I think are rather solid. Either one of
>>would positively identify a Horned. teh two latter are more subjective.
>>1) The tip of the bill looks pale in image 1 and 5
>>2) The between the eye and the bill, shows in the darker area above teh
>>main demacration line in the facial region.
>>
>>3) also the bill appear large, neck quite thick and and the contrast
>>between foreneck and rearneck too strong for eared.
>>4) In my mind teh pale area of the head suggests a winter plumage horned
>>rather than an eared grebe, which should show behind the eye below the
>>eye-line
>
>Good birding,
>
>Steve Sosensky, SoCA Bird Guides www.sosensky.com/guides/
> <mailto:steve(AT)sosensky.com> for general use
> <mailto:mobile(AT)sosensky.com> rare birds and emergencies only
>Toluca Lake, CA 91602 818-508-4946 34.15645 N, 118.36715 W
>www.SoCalAudubon.org/socal/ www.SanFernandoValleyAudubon.org/sfvas/
>SoCal FRS: use channel 11 code 22 SMS: stevesosensky(AT)vtext.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Eared or Horned Grebe
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 12:58pm
Folks,
Thought some might be interested in the following information that came
across OBOL just a few minutes ago - it came from someone who saw the
bird this morning - and I am assuming that it is the same bird being
seen over several days. The question I have is, does a white tip on the
bill exclude Eared, or is the bill more variable than the guides suggest?
"I think there's little question this bird is a HORNED GREBE. Yes,
the very tip (and only the very tip) of the bill is whitish (unlike one of
Ed's pictures), and it is thick and not upturned like Eared should be. The
bird raised its crest at least once, and it peaks far back; the head is
also pretty flat. The back looked rounded at first (like one of Ed's
pictures), which made me hope for Eared at first glance, but it mostly was
held flatter."
Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eared or Horned Grebe?
From: Harry Lehto <hlehto(AT)OJ287.ASTRO.UTU.FI>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 12:58pm
Steve et al,
I see your points but am I seeing incorrectly that:
1) The tip of the bill looks pale in image 1 and 5
To my undrestanding Eared should not have this, and if visible it should
be a positive field mark of a Horned. If not visible, it is not conclusive
either way.
As for my second point, what I typed contained a fatal typo it should
have read
2) Between the eye and the bill, the bird shows a paler (not
darker) spot above the main demacration line in the facial region. It is
kind of a reddish spot in all these photographs. Horned has positively a
spot at this position, I am not aware that an eared has one. Maybe I'm
seeing non-sense here and there is no real spot. In full winter plumage
this should be whiter.
Granted that the bird looks quite like a winter plumaged eared grebe both
in shape and in color, but I'm not happy about the thickness of the neck
nor of the detailed head pattern. Looking at a stack of winter
plumaged Eared's I photographed in the mid 80's in Salton Sea and
elsewhere in So Ca, I don't find a bird that matches this one.
I'm comparing these also to winter plumaged Horned's from Ca and
elsewhere.
I feel that this bird has not developped full winterplumage yet.
A winter plumaged eared should have a greyer (and paler) tones all over -
right?
If you make the pale buffy areas behind the eye into white (as in winter
plumage) you would have an Horned head pattern with the eye not
surrounded by "dark". If in the first image, the line between the buffy
area (rear cheeck) and the darke bulged downwards rather than upwards,
then that would point towards an eared. In this bird I think it rather
suggests the coming pattern of a winter Horned.
Furthermore the bill appears relatively short: height 8-9 pixels and
length max about 24 pixels (image 1 and 5) giving a ratio of 1:2.5-3,
which IMHO is too thick/short for Eared.
The forhead is quite steep, but again I feel that it is not steep enough
for a Eared. Normally a horned has a flatter crown in winter plumage, but
what if this bird was so close that it raised the crown feathers due to
disturbance.
In any case an interesting bird.
Regards
Harry
hlehto(AT)utu.fi
Finland
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eared or Horned Grebe?
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 4:40pm
Unless the photos are horribly misleading, this bird is unquestionably
an Eared Grebe. Steve Sosenky's message says it all-- basically, that
the bird is shaped like an Eared Grebe (notice the puffed-up rear). I
also agree the plumage is fine for Eared Grebe but problematic for
Horned Grebe.
Simply comparing the photos of Eared and Horned Grebes that pop on on
Google image search should resolve this one for any doubters.
One thing about Horned Grebes is that they're kind of like a small dog
that thinks it's a big dog (e.g. dachshunds). They have low backs and
swim with their rears in the water, often folds their necks straight
back over their backs, and in general act a bit more regal (like Western
or Red-necked Grebes) than the dainty Eared Grebes.
good birding,
Steve Hampton, Ph.D.
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Tangara-like birds in St-Pierre-et-Miquelon
From: Pascal ASSELIN <pascal.asselin(AT)WANADOO.FR>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 5:18pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--Boundary_(ID_GM703uW+jQ5cyiI8+zdDOA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
In early October, possibly related to hurricane Juan, St. Pierre et Miquelon
experienced an interesting fall-out of birds, including dozens of Red-eyed
Vireos, Philadephia Vireos, a few Summer Tanagers, more than ten species of
Warblers, among them, several N. Parulas, and Canada Warblers (the latter is a
fairly rare bird here). We had several Dickcissels and a lot of Baltimore
Orioles as well etc.
Among all these birds were a few Tangara or Tangara-like bird, all yellow, at
least two different birds have been photographed and showed an obvious notched
tail, several field guides were consulted and none show such a forked tail for
the species. Could it be a real unusual species.
Photos at these adress :
A first bird photographed by Nadine Vogenstahl :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/141_4187.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/141_4181.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/141_4184.jpg
An other bird photographed by Pascal Asselin :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030118.JPG
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030119.JPG
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030124.JPG
In company :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030123.JPG
Thanks
Birders from Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon (where tangaras visiting is uncommon)
--Boundary_(ID_GM703uW+jQ5cyiI8+zdDOA)
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Subject: Re: Eared or Horned Grebe
From: DAVID IRONS <llsdirons(AT)MSN.COM>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 6:21pm
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Pasted below are comments I posted to OBOL (Oregon Birders Online) late las=
t
night before Dave Lauten forwarded the photos to this list.
I will preface my comments by saying that I have only looked at the images
of the grebe posted by Greg Gillson. In looking closely at each photo and =
I
cannot discern any pale tip to the bill on any of them.
I think this bird looks like an Eared Grebe based on the following
structural and plumage characteristics.
1. Head Shape =8B The forecrown is extremely steep and overall the crown is
rounded with the highest point in front of the midpoint of the crown. From
this high point the crown is very rounded and slopes steeply towards the
nape. Horned Grebes usually appear to have a longer flatter crown with an
anvil shape (squared off) to the hind crown.
2. Body Shape =8B The curvature of the back is very suggestive of Eared with
the forward curve of the back sloping fairly steeply to the base of the
neck. I think this accentuates the long-necked look of Eared Grebes.
Horneds usually show a flatter backed profile. Additionally, this bird is
very grayish on the flanks and has paler gray to whitish fluffy feathering
at the tail end of the body. This look shows up in virtually every image I
could find for basic plumaged Eared Grebes and is not present in images of
Horned Grebes. The flanks of Horned Grebes ( area along the sides just
above the water line) are usually more evenly pale gray to white.
3. Dark pattern on the Head -- In every one of these pictures the eye
appears to be fully enclosed within the dark feathering. Additionally, the
dark area wraps down and behind the eye extending lower on the face behind
the eye than it does in front half of the face near the eye. In Horned
Grebes there is usually a fairly straight horizontal delineation between th=
e
dark crown and the whitish cheek and throat. Typically the eye of a basic
plumaged Horned Grebe is located right at this delineation and is not fully
in enclosed by either light or dark feathering. Transitional Horned Grebes
can have a somewhat ragged face pattern lacking the clean break between dar=
k
and light feathering, but in general the divide line is more horizontal tha=
n
it is on this bird. There is also no light area in front of the eye which
is usually shown by basic plumaged Horned Grebes
There has been quite a bit of comment on the bill shape and the thickness a=
t
the base. I think it is important to avoid overemphasizing the bill
appearance. I pulled up several images of Eared Grebes on line and found
that the relative thickness and apparent bill length was highly variable.
Also, a couple of the images showed birds with a tiny portion of the tip of
the bill looking slightly paler than the rest of the bill, but nothing
suggestive of the amount of pale on a Horned Grebe. There are several
factors that can contribute to such variations. First, bill size can be
highly variable depending on the age of the bird. Second, if the bird is
molting and is missing feathers around the base of the bll, the broad basal
portions of the bill (normally covered by feathers) are exposed making the
bill appear thicker and sometimes longer. Variances can also be created
depending on whether feathers are laid down or raised up.
Comments of those who have actually seen this bird tend to support
identifying this bird as an Eared Grebe. No one has said that the bird
shows a strongly pale-tipped bill. Based on these photos, I think the bul=
k
of the evidence favors Eared. Thanks to those who have shared their field
observations and images of this bird.
Dave Irons
llsdirons(AT)msn.com
Eugene, OR
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Subject: Re: Eared or Horned Grebe?
From: Steve Sosensky <Steve(AT)SOSENSKY.COM>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 8:44pm
Harry,
I just don't see how any of this is relevant in the face of the structure
of the bird. A quick check in Sibley shows both necks to be about the same
thickness. The alleged white on the tip of the bill in #1 and #5 seem to me
to be the highlight from the ripple in the water, not part of the bill. The
face pattern is exactly how Sibley has it painted. I really don't see any
indication that this is a Horned Grebe.
At 07:39 PM 2003-10-16 +0300, Harry Lehto wrote:
>I see your points but am I seeing incorrectly that:
Good birding,
Steve Sosensky, SoCA Bird Guides www.sosensky.com/guides/
<mailto:steve(AT)sosensky.com> for general use
<mailto:mobile(AT)sosensky.com> rare birds and emergencies only
Toluca Lake, CA 91602 818-508-4946 34.15645 N, 118.36715 W
www.SoCalAudubon.org/socal/ www.SanFernandoValleyAudubon.org/sfvas/
SoCal FRS: use channel 11 code 22 SMS: stevesosensky(AT)vtext.com
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Subject: Eared Grebe
From: David Vander Pluym <SCRE(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 16 Oct 2003 10:22pm
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I seem to find this as a fairly straightforward Eared Grebe. It seems people
are putting to much emphasis on a few points which seem to be fine for Eared
Grebe. A main one is the white tip to the bill. While I don't see it on my
computer monitor I feel this is to unreliable as the bill can be scratched
causing a normally dark bill to have some white. I recall there being talk of
this with ducks a while back I think in Birding Magazine.
David Vander Pluym
UCSC California
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Subject: Eared or horned
From: Paul Larkin <paullarkin(AT)PGEN.NET>
Date: 17 Oct 2003 1:04am
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Chaps,
This bird looks rather brown for an adult winter of either species. =
Assuming this is not a photographic effect this would suggest that this =
is a juv bird. This being the case it would explain the slightly =
anomalous bill shape for eared. Juv eared have much shorter and =
straighter bills than adults and browner plumage (similar to European =
Litle Grebe and I guess Pied Billed), although these features grow out =
after a few months. An eared grebe by my reckoning and a juv at that.
Paul
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Subject: Re: Tangara-like birds in St-Pierre-et-Miquelon
From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 17 Oct 2003 6:20am
At 10:05 PM 10/16/2003 -0300, Pascal ASSELIN wrote:
>In early October, possibly related to hurricane Juan, St. Pierre et
>Miquelon experienced an interesting fall-out of birds, ...
>Among all these birds were a few Tangara or Tangara-like bird, all yellow,
>at least two different birds have been photographed and showed an obvious
>notched tail, several field guides were consulted and none show such a
>forked tail for the species. Could it be a real unusual species.
>Photos at these adress :
>
>A first bird photographed by Nadine Vogenstahl :
><http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/141_4187.jpg>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/141_4187.jpg
>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/141_4181.jpg
><http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/141_4184.jpg>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/141_4184.jpg
>
>An other bird photographed by Pascal Asselin :
><http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030118.JPG>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/<http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030118.JPG>101003PA10030118.JPG
>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030119.JPG
><http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030124.JPG>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/<http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030124.JPG>101003PA10030124.JPG
>In company :
><http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030123.JPG>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/<http://perso.wanadoo.fr/iles-et-ailes/Quiz/101003PA10030123.JPG>101003PA10030123.JPG
>
These look like Scarlet Tanagers to me. The notched or forked tail
appearance is typical of the species (and the genus). I don't have any
photographs posted that will show this for Scarlet, but you can see it in
the last Western Tanager photo I have at
<http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/westanager.htm>. A quick Google image
search will match up the tails pretty quickly.
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D.
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
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Subject: Re: Unidentified gadfly petrel from Hawaii
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 17 Oct 2003 8:39am
Hi Everyone,
A clear consensus has emerged over the identity of the 'Maui' petrel.
As suspected by the original finders and by Fern Duvall, it appears to
be an immature Stejneger's Petrel (Pterodroma longirostris). The similar
Pycroft's Petrel (Pterodroma pycrofti) from New Zealand can be
eliminated by several criteria.
http://www.oceanwanderers.com/MauiPetrel.html
This difficult to see species nests on Mas a Fuera in the Juan Fernandez
Islands off central Chile and during the boreal spring/summer migrates
westwards across the vast spaces of the central Pacific towards but not
quite reaching Japan. Birds return in September and are known to pass
through Hawaiian waters on route.
My thanks to Peter Donaldson, Don Roberson, Brent Stephenson, Mike Imber
and Paul Scofield for contributing thoughts, information and images.
Cheers, Angus Wilson
http://www.oceanwanderers.com
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