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ID-FRONTIERS for November 1-8, 2003
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| another mystery gull | Blair Nikula | Mon, 3 Nov 2003 | 8:30pm |
| Re: another mystery gull | Peter Adriaens | Tue, 4 Nov 2003 | 7:00am |
| AGPL vs. PGPL | Roger Wolfe | Tue, 4 Nov 2003 | 1:59pm |
| Italy mystery bird | Menotti Passarella | Tue, 4 Nov 2003 | 2:09pm |
| Banded C. maritima | =?iso-8859-1?q?Arne= | Wed, 5 Nov 2003 | 1:27am |
| Pink-footed Geese? | Ian Paulsen | Wed, 5 Nov 2003 | 1:44am |
| Re: Pink-footed Geese? | Graham Etherington | Wed, 5 Nov 2003 | 5:00am |
| RE : another mystery gull | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierr | Wed, 5 Nov 2003 | 6:35am |
| RE : Pink-footed Geese? | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierr | Wed, 5 Nov 2003 | 7:25am |
| Pink-footed Geese | Baxter, Paul | Wed, 5 Nov 2003 | 7:41am |
| Cameroon ID | Matt Sharp | Wed, 5 Nov 2003 | 12:39pm |
| Fwd: Bean or Pink Geese (photos) | Ian Paulsen | Wed, 5 Nov 2003 | 2:54pm |
| Archilochus Hummingbird ID | Angus Wilson | Fri, 7 Nov 2003 | 6:26pm |
| Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Alvaro Jaramillo | Fri, 7 Nov 2003 | 10:14pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Phil Pickering | Fri, 7 Nov 2003 | 11:04pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Millington/BIS | Sat, 8 Nov 2003 | 3:02am |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Norman D.van Swelm | Sat, 8 Nov 2003 | 6:31am |
| Re: Archilochus Hummingbird ID | Paul and Ashleigh Co | Sat, 8 Nov 2003 | 10:18am |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Ian Paulsen | Sat, 8 Nov 2003 | 10:57am |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Harry Hussey | Sat, 8 Nov 2003 | 10:59am |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | David Cooper | Sat, 8 Nov 2003 | 12:13pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Steven Mlodinow | Sat, 8 Nov 2003 | 6:21pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Alvaro Jaramillo | Sat, 8 Nov 2003 | 7:14pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: another mystery gull
From: Blair Nikula <odenews(AT)ODENEWS.NET>
Date: 3 Nov 2003 8:30pm
With some trepidation, I'll initiate the gull season by requesting opinions
on the identity of a juvenile gull photographed yesterday (2 November 2003)
in Massachusetts, USA. Some mediocre digiscoped images are at:
http://home.comcast.net/~odenews/JuvGullSMoy1103.htm
Larophiles may also be interested in a bird I photographed last month, also
in Chatham, Massachusetts, that appears to be a Lesser Black-backed X
Herring Gull hybrid (adult). Photos at:
http://home.comcast.net/~odenews/LBBGxHEGU1003.htm
Blair Nikula
2 Gilbert Lane
Harwich Port, MA 02646
USA
mailto:odenews(AT)odenews.net
web site: http://www.odenews.net/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: another mystery gull
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 4 Nov 2003 7:00am
Hello,
I feel quite confident that this juvenile gull is indeed a European
Herring Gull, probably of northern origin (Iceland or northern
Scandinavia). A Yellow-legged Gull would certainly have lost the juvenile
scapulars by now, and would be more worn. Also, the pattern of the
juvenile scapulars (with deep central 'notches' to some) is more typical
of Eur. Herring Gull.
As for the apparent Lesser Black-backed x Herring Gull, are there any
flight shots of it?
Regards,
Peter Adriaens
> With some trepidation, I'll initiate the gull season by requesting
> opinions
> on the identity of a juvenile gull photographed yesterday (2 November
> 2003)
> in Massachusetts, USA. Some mediocre digiscoped images are at:
> http://home.comcast.net/~odenews/JuvGullSMoy1103.htm
>
> Larophiles may also be interested in a bird I photographed last month,
> also
> in Chatham, Massachusetts, that appears to be a Lesser Black-backed X
> Herring Gull hybrid (adult). Photos at:
> http://home.comcast.net/~odenews/LBBGxHEGU1003.htm
>
> Blair Nikula
>
> 2 Gilbert Lane
> Harwich Port, MA 02646
> USA
> mailto:odenews(AT)odenews.net
> web site: http://www.odenews.net/
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: AGPL vs. PGPL
From: Roger Wolfe <rogwolfe(AT)CRUZIO.COM>
Date: 4 Nov 2003 1:59pm
Greetings,
What are the diagnostic field marks that distinguish juvenal American
Golden- Plover -Pluvialis dominica- from Pacific Golden-Plover -Pluvialis
fulva?
Thanks for your comments in advance.
Roger Wolfe
Soquel, CA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Italy mystery bird
From: Menotti Passarella <menotti.passarella(AT)LIBERO.IT>
Date: 4 Nov 2003 2:09pm
Hi all.
A completely unknown bird (a long tailed passerine, 20-24 cm long) was
recently observed in Italy.
Click here to see that bird:
http://www.geocities.com/podeltabirds/mysterybird1
Any suggestions ?
Regards
Menotti Passarella
Italy
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Banded C. maritima
From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Arne=20J.=20Lesterhuis?=" <arne_j_lesterhuis(AT)YAHOO.CO.UK>
Date: 5 Nov 2003 1:27am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all,
Maybe of interest:
Last saturday I was birding on one of holland's islands (Vlieland) and observed
a small mixed flock of common shorebirds, C. canutus, C. alba, Arenaria
interpres and C. maritima. I could approach them very close and noted that three
of the C. maritima were banded.
Two of them had a metal and a red ring on one leg and the third bird had a metal
ring and a red ring on one leg and a red and a yellow ring on the other leg.
Does anyone know where (and maybe when) those birds have been banded, and by
who?
For those interested I took some pics which I can only send on request while I
don't have a site to put them on.
All the best,
Arne Lesterhuis
---------------------------------
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Pink-footed Geese?
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 5 Nov 2003 1:44am
HI:
These two geese were photographed by the Sullivans last weekend at
Bowerman Basin, WA State. Are they pink-footed or bean geese?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:50:34 -0800
From: Denny Granstrand <dgranstrand(AT)charter.net>
To: tweeters(AT)u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Pink-footed Geese?
Hi Tweeters,
Here is a website with photos of Pink-footed Goose:
http://212.187.155.84/wnv/Subdirectories_for_Search/SpeciesKingdoms/0Families_ACrAv_Anseriformes/anatidae/1ACrAvAn_anser/anser_brachyrhynchus/Anser_brachyrhynchus.html
Compare them with Ruth Sullivan's photos from last weekend:
http://photos.yahoo.com/godwit2003/
Then, compare them with Patrick's photos of the Bean Goose from last year:
http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/bego1.htm
I think Ruth and Patrick's suggestion that the geese now at Bowerman Basin are
Pink-footed Geese might be correct. Are they escapees???
Denny Granstrand
Yakima, WA
At 06:41 PM 11/4/2003 -0800, Ruth Sullivan wrote:
>Hello Tweets,
>
>We have strongly reconsidered the possible chance of the 2 Bowerman Basin geese
identified as Bean Geese and being Pink-footed Geese,going by the overwhelming
gray plumage on the back feathers and smaller size compared to a nearby Greater
White-fronted Goose that we originally observed on the 2nd of November. Did any
of the observers in the past 2 days consider this as a likely candidate rather
than "true" Bean Geese? We would appreciate any opinion from anyone concerning
this matter along with anyone that has any additional information regarding the
correct identity of the 2 geese at Bowerman Basin. Also,perhaps anyone having
access to our photos on out yahoo websit may have any ideas,comments on the 6
photos of the two geese that may give us additional information. We have
obtained all our personal resourses on both species,but would like additional
information if anyone has any to offer. For those that have not seen photographs
taken of the two geese on out yahoo website
they can be accessed at
<http://photos.yahoo.com/godwit2003/>http://photos.yahoo.com/godwit2003/, then
clicking on the Ruth Sullivan thumbnail.
>
>Thank you for any information that may be obtained.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Ruth and Patrick Sullivan
>Tacoma,WA
><mailto:godwit(AT)worldnet.att.net>godwit(AT)worldnet.att.net
>
* Denny Granstrand *
* Yakima, WA *
* dgranstrand(AT)charter.net *
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Pink-footed Geese?
From: Graham Etherington <etherington(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 5 Nov 2003 5:00am
Dear birders,
I took a look at the photos of the two grey-geese at Bowerman Basin and
would say they were definitely Pink-footed Geese. The grey body and dark
head is a perfect fit, as is the dark bill with the irregular pink band
round it. Of course, in North America, any vagrant Bean Goose would probably
be of the form A. f. middendorffii (Eastern Taiga Bean Goose), which has a
very long, thick bill and large head, which these 2 birds don't have,
although in the profile shot of the bird in photo BEG06 (right-hand bird),
the bill depth looks rather on the deep side, but is nowhere near as long
for Af middendorffii.
Two other characters indicating Pink-footed is that they have very thick
white band at the tip of the tail, whereas on Bean Goose this band is
usually very thin, .....and of course they have Pink-feet (and legs)!
As to their origin, one can only speculate, but geese are regularly found
out of range. If these birds are true vagrants and took a direct route, I
would suggest they took an 'over the top' route (i.e. via the pole, or
extreme northern Arctic Canada), rather than a 'round the side' route (i.e.
across Northern Russia, or Canada). Another theory is that they would only
have to travel a relatively short distance in the wrong direction (from
Greenland) before they got caught up with other North American geese that
headed for the west coast (excuse my slackness, I've not bothered to
identify the Canada Geese in the photos to race and breeding locations).
Hope this helps,
Graham Etherington,
Norwich, UK
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Reply-To: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Pink-footed Geese?
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:16:25 -0800
HI:
These two geese were photographed by the Sullivans last weekend at
Bowerman Basin, WA State. Are they pink-footed or bean geese?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:50:34 -0800
From: Denny Granstrand <dgranstrand(AT)charter.net>
To: tweeters(AT)u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Pink-footed Geese?
Hi Tweeters,
Here is a website with photos of Pink-footed Goose:
http://212.187.155.84/wnv/Subdirectories_for_Search/SpeciesKingdoms/0Families_ACrAv_Anseriformes/anatidae/1ACrAvAn_anser/anser_brachyrhynchus/Anser_brachyrhynchus.html
Compare them with Ruth Sullivan's photos from last weekend:
http://photos.yahoo.com/godwit2003/
Then, compare them with Patrick's photos of the Bean Goose from last year:
http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/bego1.htm
I think Ruth and Patrick's suggestion that the geese now at Bowerman Basin
are Pink-footed Geese might be correct. Are they escapees???
Denny Granstrand
Yakima, WA
At 06:41 PM 11/4/2003 -0800, Ruth Sullivan wrote:
>Hello Tweets,
>
>We have strongly reconsidered the possible chance of the 2 Bowerman Basin
geese identified as Bean Geese and being Pink-footed Geese,going by the
overwhelming gray plumage on the back feathers and smaller size compared to
a nearby Greater White-fronted Goose that we originally observed on the 2nd
of November. Did any of the observers in the past 2 days consider this as a
likely candidate rather than "true" Bean Geese? We would appreciate any
opinion from anyone concerning this matter along with anyone that has any
additional information regarding the correct identity of the 2 geese at
Bowerman Basin. Also,perhaps anyone having access to our photos on out yahoo
websit may have any ideas,comments on the 6 photos of the two geese that may
give us additional information. We have obtained all our personal resourses
on both species,but would like additional information if anyone has any to
offer. For those that have not seen photographs taken of the two geese on
out yahoo website
they can be accessed at
<http://photos.yahoo.com/godwit2003/>http://photos.yahoo.com/godwit2003/,
then clicking on the Ruth Sullivan thumbnail.
>
>Thank you for any information that may be obtained.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Ruth and Patrick Sullivan
>Tacoma,WA
><mailto:godwit(AT)worldnet.att.net>godwit(AT)worldnet.att.net
>
* Denny Granstrand *
* Yakima, WA *
* dgranstrand(AT)charter.net *
_________________________________________________________________
Crave some Miles Davis or Grateful Dead? Your old favorites are always
playing on MSN Radio Plus. Trial month free!
http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RE : another mystery gull
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS-MOP.FR>
Date: 5 Nov 2003 6:35am
Dear all,
I agree with Peter that this bird is not a Yellow-legged gull. For the reasons
he gave, + the quite extensive and uniform grey coloration to the underparts,
the strongly marked head, the notched tertials, the very pale greater covets,
and the mention in the accompanying description of a pale primary window as in
Herring Gull. The resulting overall appearance is typical of European Herring
Gull (Larus argentatus), although my limited experience of Larus smithsonianus
does not allow me to confidently exclude an atypical NA bird. For this point I
trust him more than me...
Cheers,
Pierre
Pierre-André Crochet
CEFE-CNRS
1919, route de Mende
34293 Montpellier cedex 5
France
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38
crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs-mop.fr
-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Peter Adriaens
Envoyé : mardi 4 novembre 2003 15:00
À : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] another mystery gull
Hello,
I feel quite confident that this juvenile gull is indeed a European
Herring Gull, probably of northern origin (Iceland or northern
Scandinavia). A Yellow-legged Gull would certainly have lost the juvenile
scapulars by now, and would be more worn. Also, the pattern of the
juvenile scapulars (with deep central 'notches' to some) is more typical
of Eur. Herring Gull.
As for the apparent Lesser Black-backed x Herring Gull, are there any
flight shots of it?
Regards,
Peter Adriaens
> With some trepidation, I'll initiate the gull season by requesting
> opinions
> on the identity of a juvenile gull photographed yesterday (2 November
> 2003)
> in Massachusetts, USA. Some mediocre digiscoped images are at:
> http://home.comcast.net/~odenews/JuvGullSMoy1103.htm
>
> Larophiles may also be interested in a bird I photographed last month,
> also
> in Chatham, Massachusetts, that appears to be a Lesser Black-backed X
> Herring Gull hybrid (adult). Photos at:
> http://home.comcast.net/~odenews/LBBGxHEGU1003.htm
>
> Blair Nikula
>
> 2 Gilbert Lane
> Harwich Port, MA 02646
> USA
> mailto:odenews(AT)odenews.net
> web site: http://www.odenews.net/
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RE : Pink-footed Geese?
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS-MOP.FR>
Date: 5 Nov 2003 7:25am
As Graham just said, they look perfect for Pink-footed Geese to me.
Pierre-André Crochet
CEFE-CNRS
1919, route de Mende
34293 Montpellier cedex 5
France
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38
crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs-mop.fr
-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Ian Paulsen
Envoyé : mercredi 5 novembre 2003 05:16
À : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Objet : [BIRDWG01] Pink-footed Geese?
HI:
These two geese were photographed by the Sullivans last weekend at
Bowerman Basin, WA State. Are they pink-footed or bean geese?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:50:34 -0800
From: Denny Granstrand <dgranstrand(AT)charter.net>
To: tweeters(AT)u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Pink-footed Geese?
Hi Tweeters,
Here is a website with photos of Pink-footed Goose:
http://212.187.155.84/wnv/Subdirectories_for_Search/SpeciesKingdoms/0Families_ACrAv_Anseriformes/anatidae/1ACrAvAn_anser/anser_brachyrhynchus/Anser_brachyrhynchus.html
Compare them with Ruth Sullivan's photos from last weekend:
http://photos.yahoo.com/godwit2003/
Then, compare them with Patrick's photos of the Bean Goose from last year:
http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/bego1.htm
I think Ruth and Patrick's suggestion that the geese now at Bowerman Basin are
Pink-footed Geese might be correct. Are they escapees???
Denny Granstrand
Yakima, WA
At 06:41 PM 11/4/2003 -0800, Ruth Sullivan wrote:
>Hello Tweets,
>
>We have strongly reconsidered the possible chance of the 2 Bowerman Basin geese
identified as Bean Geese and being Pink-footed Geese,going by the overwhelming
gray plumage on the back feathers and smaller size compared to a nearby Greater
White-fronted Goose that we originally observed on the 2nd of November. Did any
of the observers in the past 2 days consider this as a likely candidate rather
than "true" Bean Geese? We would appreciate any opinion from anyone concerning
this matter along with anyone that has any additional information regarding the
correct identity of the 2 geese at Bowerman Basin. Also,perhaps anyone having
access to our photos on out yahoo websit may have any ideas,comments on the 6
photos of the two geese that may give us additional information. We have
obtained all our personal resourses on both species,but would like additional
information if anyone has any to offer. For those that have not seen photographs
taken of the two geese on out yahoo website
they can be accessed at
<http://photos.yahoo.com/godwit2003/>http://photos.yahoo.com/godwit2003/, then
clicking on the Ruth Sullivan thumbnail.
>
>Thank you for any information that may be obtained.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Ruth and Patrick Sullivan
>Tacoma,WA
><mailto:godwit(AT)worldnet.att.net>godwit(AT)worldnet.att.net
>
* Denny Granstrand *
* Yakima, WA *
* dgranstrand(AT)charter.net *
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Pink-footed Geese
From: "Baxter, Paul" <Paul.Baxter(AT)CONOCOPHILLIPS.COM>
Date: 5 Nov 2003 7:41am
Just looked at the photo's. Yep, no doubt they are Pink-footed Geese.
Paul Baxter
Severn Unival/Conocophillips Campaign Maintenance
c/o Halliburton/Kellog Brown & Root
Zone 1, Desk #4
Wellheads Place
Wellheads Industrial Estate
Dyce, Aberdeen. AB21 7GB
' 01224 777680
' 07712 133365
6Fax 01224-777727
* paul.baxter(AT)conocophillips.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Cameroon ID
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 5 Nov 2003 12:39pm
For anyone who is interested, or enjoys the odd
ID challenge take a peek at the URL below.
This one had us scratching our heads a bit.
It was photographed at 2,100 meters on
Mt. Cameroon, at Mann's Spring, on June
6, 1996 by Doug Wechsler.
Send responses to me or the list as you choose.
We (Doug and I) think we know what it is and
I will post our answer once anyone who is interested
takes a stab.
Enjoy
Matt Sharp
http://www.acnatsci.org/~wechsler/lightbox/id_finch/id_finch.html
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Fwd: Bean or Pink Geese (photos)
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net>
Date: 5 Nov 2003 2:54pm
HI ALL:
FYI
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From: "Sherry Hagen" <littlebirder(AT)netzero.net>
To: "tweeters message" <tweeters(AT)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Bean or Pink Geese (photos)
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I just posted a few of the digital photos I took through a scope yesterday
of the 2 'in question' geese at Bowerman Basin.
http://home.pacifier.com/~birder/geese.html
( ) >
_/_)_ Sherry Hagen
/ littlebirder(AT)netzero.net
-- END OF FORWARDED MESSAGE --
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Archilochus Hummingbird ID
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 7 Nov 2003 6:26pm
Hummingbird enthusiasts will be interested to know that the current
issue of 'The Kingbird' carries separate articles by Michael
Stubblefield and Andrew Guthrie discussing the identification of an
enigmatic _Archilochus_ hummingbird that spent the first half of
December 2001 at the Lenoir Preserve in Westchester Co., New York.
The question of whether this is a Ruby-throated Hummingbird (Archilochus
colubris) or a Black-chinned Hummingbird (A. alexandri) has sparked a
keen and continuing debate amongst New York City birders. Ultimately
this individual may have to remain unidentified but the two articles
provide a thought-provoking analysis of the difficult problem at hand.
Both are illustrated with a collection of color photographs and can be
viewed (for a while at least) on the FNYSBC web site at:
http://www.fnysbc.org/Publications/kingbird.htm
Stubblefield, M. D. (2003) A Possible Black-chinned Hummingbird in New
York State. Kingbird 53(3)
Guthrie, A. (2003) Archilochus Hummingbird at Lenoir Preserve
(Westchester Co.) NY Dec 2001. Kingbird 53(3)
I am sure both authors would appreciate comments from other birders,
especially those with extensive field or in-hand experience of these
'look-alike' species.
Enjoy!
Angus Wilson
New York City
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 7 Nov 2003 10:14pm
Hey folks
Gull season is definitely here, today I had my first Thayer's Gulls.
They are not all that common here on the coast, but abundant in south San
Francisco Bay. We have had several very pale Thayer's/Iceland gulls in the
south bay over the years but they usually occur late in the season when
wear and fading are a factor. Today I saw a pale, rather unicolored bird
that stood out as being something different in Half Moon Bay, coastal San
Mateo County, California. You can access photos by following this link:
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/PALETHAYER.html
The last photo is typical juv. Thayer's Gull also taken today.
The pale bird (Juvenile) was a pale, uncolored coffee and cream colour,
resembling the general colour shade of Juvenile Glaucous-winged Gulls near
it. Photo 1 compares it with a Glaucous-winged Gull to show size and
structural differences.
Structurally this bird was like a Thayer's Gull, noticeably smaller than
Glaucous-winged and Western gulls besides it, with smaller, shallower bill,
longer wings, and shorter legs. I thought at first that it might be a runt
Glaucous-winged but decided this was not the case because:
1) Not just smaller, but very different in structure.
2) Structure differed by having much longer wings, noticeably shorter legs,
and proportionately smaller bill and shorter neck.
3) Pattern of feathers unlike Juvenile Glaucous-winged Gulls, showing more
markings on mantle and particularly on greater coverts. Banded greater
coverts like this I do not see on local Glaucous-winged Gulls.
4) Primaries slightly darker than body, with noticeable white fringes. This
pattern not common in Glaucous-winged Gull.
5) Full juvenal plumage, all juvenile GWGU I checked today had started
moulting mantle feathers.
I also considered Iceland (Kumlien's) Gull, and decided it was not that
because:
1) Bill too large, showing too much angle at gonys.
2) Kumlien's, particularly fresh birds show much more extensive white
tipping on coverts and mantle.
3) Kumlien's tend to show primaries that have a dark little teardrop shape
mark along the tip of the rachis. This pattern is variable in darkness and
extent, but seems to be relatively consistent, on the other hand it does
not tend to be shown by Thayer's. Thayer's tends to show solid darker
centers to the primaries with noticeable paler fringes, darker individuals
have darker centers and more restricted fringes than paler individuals.
4) Photo 2 shows substantial grey on underside of primaries. I am not sure
about this, but I would guess that Iceland shows all dark on upper side of
primaries, not on underside.
My final conclusion is that this is a Thayer's Gull, but is the extreme
pale end of the continuum. Clearing up any confusion on this point,
juvenile Thayer's Gulls are rather variable in how dark they are. I have
seen some very dark Thayer's which could be confused with Herring Gulls,
and others that are much, much paler but usually these paler birds are
around in February when worn and faded. Seeing a bird this pale looking
right now in early November is surprising to me, I didn't think they got
this pale! By February or early March, this bird will be really, really
pale, whitish even! Yikes.
This bird had darker tips to primaries, and in flight the wing tips were
the darkest bit on the wing but only marginally. Secondary bar was nearly
absent, and tail was pale with broad white tip. One of the photos shows the
folded tail as being rather pale and whitish. This bird, shows features
that should not be seen on a Thayer's Gull, but I do think that this is
what it is.
I appreciate any comments on this bird, and on faults in my logic. I don't
think that any hybrid combination needs to be invoked here to explain this
bird, and in fact no combo fits that I can conjure up. This doesn't mean
that you can't try and fit some hybrid combination on this bird...go crazy.
Other crazy birds there today included a juvenile smithsonianus Herring
Gull that was so dark that it looked like a thin-billed Western Gull at
first. Further views showed it to lack broad white tips to the secondaries,
and had marginally paler inner primaries. Structurally it was a Herring
Gull. Many Glaucous-winged X Western hybrids and at least one
Glaucous-winged x Herring hybrid. This is the land of the hybrids,
particularly when you have a nice flock of 2000 or so gulls to look at, as
we do in Half Moon Bay.
cheers
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)comcast.net
Montara, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 7 Nov 2003 11:04pm
Nice bird. I don't see any reason to think it's not a Thayer's
- the patterning looks prototypical to me, just with much less
less dark pigment than avg.
I do see a small number of pale-end Thayer's annually that
show diamond-like shapes in the primary tips. This was also
taken in Nov:
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/thayers2001.jpg
Cheers,
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, OR
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 8 Nov 2003 3:02am
Hi Guys
Purely academic nowadays, this ''pale Thayer's'' stuff, isn't it?
I understand 'Birds of North America' (the latest definitive reference?)
treats thayeri, kumlieni and glaucoides all as subspecies of Iceland Gull.
The BOU here in Britain certainly does.
As a British birder, then, I am told that there's only one species involved:
Iceland Gull Larus glaucoides.
Is it not the case that we must refer to both these recent pale birds (as
well as Alvaro's 'normal' bird, since it is juvenile too) as:
Iceland Gulls showing some (supposed) characters of the race 'thayeri'?
Please correct me if any of the above is incorrect...
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
.
.
.
.
.
.
;-)
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 8 Nov 2003 6:31am
Richard Millington wrote:> Purely academic nowadays, this ''pale Thayer's''
stuff, isn't it?
> I understand 'Birds of North America' (the latest definitive reference?)
> treats thayeri, kumlieni and glaucoides all as subspecies of Iceland Gull.
> The BOU here in Britain certainly does.
> As a British birder, then, I am told that there's only one species
involved:
> Iceland Gull Larus glaucoides.
> Is it not the case that we must refer to both these recent pale birds (as
> well as Alvaro's 'normal' bird, since it is juvenile too) as:
> Iceland Gulls showing some (supposed) characters of the race 'thayeri'?
>
> Please correct me if any of the above is incorrect...<
I don't doubt your quotes are correct and so is your interpretation from
your quotes. But of what practical value is the assumption (or have you seen
any proof?) that there is only the one Iceland Gull? Should we not bother
anymore to report an out of range pale or dark bird? Should we stop trying
to figure out what is or what is not the normal range of the various
populations (if I may use this word)? If this lumping has been based on DNA
studies then clearly it shows that DNA studies are still imperfect as they
do not (yet) detect the differences that can clearly be seen by the human
eye! Fair enough, these birds have
a common ancestry but clearly they have grown apart over the years to an
extent that we can separate a number of groups by means of external
characters, in this case three at least. DNA studies cannot show the
differences between say Iceland and Thayer's Gull, yet we know they are
there as we can see them and we can see them because they lay hidden in
these gull's DNA! So my suggestion is keep looking for the differences,
report them, photograph them and do not get distracted by the outcome of DNA
studies as these are still in an infant state.
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Archilochus Hummingbird ID
From: Paul and Ashleigh Conover <zoiseaux(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 8 Nov 2003 10:18am
I read the two articles and felt that the photos showed a typical
Rubythroat. I wondered what a hummingbird expert many rungs above me on the
ladder might think, so I asked Nancy Newfield for her opinion. She was
familiar with the bird in question, and had previously corresponded with
someone regarding the bird. Below is a copy of her opinion, sent with her
permission.
Paul Conover
Lafayette, Louisiana
>Let me start by citing my qualifications for identifying hummingbirds of
>the genus Archilochus. I began studying hummingbirds Louisiana in 1975
>and began banding them in 1979 as a way to distinguish the different
>species that regularly spend the winter months in Louisiana. I have
>banded approximately 9000 hummingbirds of 15 species. Much of my work has
>been in Louisiana, but I have also banded extensively in Texas and
>Arizona. I have handled birds of both sexes of each Archilochus species
>[Ruby-throated Hummingbird = Archilochus colubris; Black-chinned
>Hummingbird = Archilochus alexandri] in every month of the year. In fact,
>it was the appearance of 7 immature male Black-chinneds in my garden in
>the winter of 1975-1976 that kindled my interest in studying hummingbirds.
>
>At that time, the available field guides stated unequivocally that female
>Ruby-throateds and female Black-chinneds were not distinguishable in the
>field. However, I thought I saw subtle differences that could permit the
>two being positively identified. To do this, I needed legal permission to
>handle and mark these birds and thus began my ever-expanding study. Last
>winter, my associates and I banded the following:
>
>Buff-bellied Hummingbird 14 [+ 6 returnees + 2
>foreign re-encounters]
>Ruby-throated Hummingbird 88 [+ 3 returnees]
>Black-chinned Hummingbird 46 [+ 2 returnee + 1 foreign
>re-encounter]]
>Calliope Hummingbird 26 [+ 1 returnee]
>Broad-tailed Hummingbird 7
>Rufous Hummingbird 281 [+ 41 returnees + 6 foreign
>re-encounters]
>Allen's Hummingbird 19
>
>I have found that most Archilochus can be identified to species as well as
>age and sex in the field. A few females, however, must have the width of
>the inner webbing of the 10th primary measured to make an absolute
>identification [Baltosser, W.H. 1987. Age, Species, and Sex
>Determination of Four Species of North American Hummingbird. North
>American Bird Bander 12:151-166.] I learned the proper methods of taking
>measurements by studying specimens at the Louisiana State University
>Museum of Natural Science, working with skills taught me by John P.
>O'Neill and James V. Remsen, Jr.
>
>Your bird does not fall into the category of Archilochus that must be
>measured in order to be identified. The identification of "possible first
>year female Black-chinned Hummingbird" suffers from lack of comparative
>experience with the two species and from the fallacy of using the two
>references without such experience. The differences in light conditions
>in the photographs that accompany your text and the differences in light
>conditions of the illustrations in Steve Howell's "Hummingbirds of North
>America: The Photographic Guide" create illusions that might not actually
>exist.
>
>In your figure 1, I noted the fine stippling on the throat and the
>blackish auriculars of the subject. Those told me that it was an immature
>male. Unlike all female Ruby-throateds, some adult female Black-chinneds
>have rather obvious dark stippling on their throats, but I have not ever
>seen a female of either species show a blackish mark extending downward
>from the auriculars. That single mark tells me it is a male, not a female.
>
>I also noted the brightness of the green of the crown, nape, and lower
>back. Immature male Black-chinneds in December are never that
>bright. The same brightness is obvious on figure 2 though the auriculars
>appear less dark than in figure 1.
>
>In figure 2, unlike in figure 1, the length of the bill is
>discernible. The bill is somewhat longer than the head at the point of
>attachment, but in most Black-chinneds, the bill is nearly 1 1/2 times the
>length of the head at the point of attachment. The subject bird does not
>seem to have a long enough bill. Females of both species have longer
>bills than males, but there is considerable overlap in the measurements
>among the ages and sexes. In December, the length of the bill of either
>species should be fully developed.
>
>The lighting is figure 3 is so poor that the colors of the bird are
>significantly altered. It almost appears to be a different
>individual. Indeed the stippling on the throat is reduced and the color
>of the crown appears dull.
>
>Notice the darkness and dullness of the green on the lower back of the two
>Black-chinned images. It is considerably different from the quality if
>green shown in your figures 1 and 2. I cannot be sure of the sex of that
>individual. It may also be an immature male.
>
>Some of the characteristics you note in your text are not clearly visible
>on the images as they appear on my monitor [and certainly won't be visible
>when printed in a journal format]. The bill does not appear to be curved
>at all. Some female Black-chinneds exhibit considerable curvature to
>their bills, but I do not see any curvature to the bill of the Lenoir
>individual.
>
>I agree that the 10th primary seems rather wide and extends beyond the
>tail in figure 4, but the focus of that image is so poor and the entire
>posture of the bird is lost for perspective.
>
>The behavior/tail movement of the two species can be a useful clue to an
>individual's identity, but this is only useful to the observer who has
>seen multiple members of each species side by side. It is true that many
>Black-chinneds "pump" their tails furiously, but most Ruby-throateds
>spread and fan their tails as they approach a flower. The inexperienced
>observer can easily mistake the movement of a Ruby-throateds tail for that
>of a Black-chinned. Additionally, some Black-chinneds can hold their
>tails as steady as a rock!
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 8 Nov 2003 10:57am
HI ALL:
The AOU still considers the Iceland and Thayer's Gulls separate species
but that could change soon!
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Harry Hussey <hhussey3(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 8 Nov 2003 10:59am
Hi Norman,
I think,knowing Richard's interest in
reporting/recording different bird forms,that his
response was slightly tongue-in-cheek!
On the subject of the Thayer's candidate,aren't the
tertials very patterned?Would call this a kumlieni if
I found it over here:the fact that thayeri may look
like this complicates matters!I've seen a bird that
looked much more like thayeri than this,but it's hard
to say what it was for certain(it was a 2nd-w,have
seen very little in the literature about anything
other than juvs or adults).
Harry Hussey,Cork,Ireland
--- "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
wrote:
> Richard Millington wrote:> Purely academic nowadays,
> this ''pale Thayer's''
> stuff, isn't it?
> > I understand 'Birds of North America' (the latest
> definitive reference?)
> > treats thayeri, kumlieni and glaucoides all as
> subspecies of Iceland Gull.
> > The BOU here in Britain certainly does.
> > As a British birder, then, I am told that there's
> only one species
> involved:
> > Iceland Gull Larus glaucoides.
> > Is it not the case that we must refer to both
> these recent pale birds (as
> > well as Alvaro's 'normal' bird, since it is
> juvenile too) as:
> > Iceland Gulls showing some (supposed) characters
> of the race 'thayeri'?
> >
> > Please correct me if any of the above is
> incorrect...<
>
> I don't doubt your quotes are correct and so is your
> interpretation from
> your quotes. But of what practical value is the
> assumption (or have you seen
> any proof?) that there is only the one Iceland Gull?
> Should we not bother
> anymore to report an out of range pale or dark bird?
> Should we stop trying
> to figure out what is or what is not the normal
> range of the various
> populations (if I may use this word)? If this
> lumping has been based on DNA
> studies then clearly it shows that DNA studies are
> still imperfect as they
> do not (yet) detect the differences that can clearly
> be seen by the human
> eye! Fair enough, these birds have
> a common ancestry but clearly they have grown apart
> over the years to an
> extent that we can separate a number of groups by
> means of external
> characters, in this case three at least. DNA studies
> cannot show the
> differences between say Iceland and Thayer's Gull,
> yet we know they are
> there as we can see them and we can see them because
> they lay hidden in
> these gull's DNA! So my suggestion is keep looking
> for the differences,
> report them, photograph them and do not get
> distracted by the outcome of DNA
> studies as these are still in an infant state.
> Norman
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: David Cooper <DavidCooper475(AT)TESCO.NET>
Date: 8 Nov 2003 12:13pm
Dear Alvaro et al.
I would also agree that your bird is a very pale juvenile Thayer's Gull.
Also interesting to see how pristine both birds appear in your excellent
images. As if an example was needed, compare them to what I considered a
typical Thayer's Gull photographed in early January (so only 2 months
'later') which appears very worn in comparison. That said, the stark
differences in the scapulars and mantle are presumably a result of moult
into 1w plumage.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sussex.birder/Thayers.htm
Best wishes,
David Cooper
Sussex UK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao(AT)COMCAST.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 5:07 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
> Hey folks
>
> Gull season is definitely here, today I had my first Thayer's Gulls.
> They are not all that common here on the coast, but abundant in south San
> Francisco Bay. We have had several very pale Thayer's/Iceland gulls in the
> south bay over the years but they usually occur late in the season when
> wear and fading are a factor. Today I saw a pale, rather unicolored bird
> that stood out as being something different in Half Moon Bay, coastal San
> Mateo County, California. You can access photos by following this link:
>
> http://chucao.home.comcast.net/PALETHAYER.html
>
> The last photo is typical juv. Thayer's Gull also taken today.
>
> The pale bird (Juvenile) was a pale, uncolored coffee and cream colour,
> resembling the general colour shade of Juvenile Glaucous-winged Gulls near
> it. Photo 1 compares it with a Glaucous-winged Gull to show size and
> structural differences.
>
> Structurally this bird was like a Thayer's Gull, noticeably smaller than
> Glaucous-winged and Western gulls besides it, with smaller, shallower
bill,
> longer wings, and shorter legs. I thought at first that it might be a runt
> Glaucous-winged but decided this was not the case because:
> 1) Not just smaller, but very different in structure.
> 2) Structure differed by having much longer wings, noticeably shorter
legs,
> and proportionately smaller bill and shorter neck.
> 3) Pattern of feathers unlike Juvenile Glaucous-winged Gulls, showing more
> markings on mantle and particularly on greater coverts. Banded greater
> coverts like this I do not see on local Glaucous-winged Gulls.
> 4) Primaries slightly darker than body, with noticeable white fringes.
This
> pattern not common in Glaucous-winged Gull.
> 5) Full juvenal plumage, all juvenile GWGU I checked today had started
> moulting mantle feathers.
>
> I also considered Iceland (Kumlien's) Gull, and decided it was not that
> because:
> 1) Bill too large, showing too much angle at gonys.
> 2) Kumlien's, particularly fresh birds show much more extensive white
> tipping on coverts and mantle.
> 3) Kumlien's tend to show primaries that have a dark little teardrop shape
> mark along the tip of the rachis. This pattern is variable in darkness and
> extent, but seems to be relatively consistent, on the other hand it does
> not tend to be shown by Thayer's. Thayer's tends to show solid darker
> centers to the primaries with noticeable paler fringes, darker individuals
> have darker centers and more restricted fringes than paler individuals.
> 4) Photo 2 shows substantial grey on underside of primaries. I am not sure
> about this, but I would guess that Iceland shows all dark on upper side of
> primaries, not on underside.
>
> My final conclusion is that this is a Thayer's Gull, but is the extreme
> pale end of the continuum. Clearing up any confusion on this point,
> juvenile Thayer's Gulls are rather variable in how dark they are. I have
> seen some very dark Thayer's which could be confused with Herring Gulls,
> and others that are much, much paler but usually these paler birds are
> around in February when worn and faded. Seeing a bird this pale looking
> right now in early November is surprising to me, I didn't think they got
> this pale! By February or early March, this bird will be really, really
> pale, whitish even! Yikes.
>
> This bird had darker tips to primaries, and in flight the wing tips were
> the darkest bit on the wing but only marginally. Secondary bar was nearly
> absent, and tail was pale with broad white tip. One of the photos shows
the
> folded tail as being rather pale and whitish. This bird, shows features
> that should not be seen on a Thayer's Gull, but I do think that this is
> what it is.
>
> I appreciate any comments on this bird, and on faults in my logic. I don't
> think that any hybrid combination needs to be invoked here to explain this
> bird, and in fact no combo fits that I can conjure up. This doesn't mean
> that you can't try and fit some hybrid combination on this bird...go
crazy.
>
> Other crazy birds there today included a juvenile smithsonianus Herring
> Gull that was so dark that it looked like a thin-billed Western Gull at
> first. Further views showed it to lack broad white tips to the
secondaries,
> and had marginally paler inner primaries. Structurally it was a Herring
> Gull. Many Glaucous-winged X Western hybrids and at least one
> Glaucous-winged x Herring hybrid. This is the land of the hybrids,
> particularly when you have a nice flock of 2000 or so gulls to look at, as
> we do in Half Moon Bay.
>
> cheers
>
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> chucao(AT)comcast.net
> Montara, California
>
> Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
> http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Steven Mlodinow <SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 8 Nov 2003 6:21pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings All
Each fall/winter in Washington, I see birds that are similar to Alvaro's
Thayer's, at least in overall color and primary darkness. I've been calling
them
Thayer's (and certainly if I was seeing several Kumlein's/year here, that'd be
MOST unusual). The one mark that seems different is the amount of patterning
on the tertials. The dark tail band on this bird should indicate Thayer's, I'd
think.
And yes, in mid-to-late spring, I've seen some birds that are frighteningly
pale here, but they usually have unpatterned tertials and dark tail bands (and
a dark secondary bar in flight).
Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
Everett WA
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 8 Nov 2003 7:14pm
At 10:02 AM 11/8/2003 +0000, Millington/BIS wrote:
>Hi Guys
>
>Purely academic nowadays, this ''pale Thayer's'' stuff, isn't it?
>
>I understand 'Birds of North America' (the latest definitive reference?)
>treats thayeri, kumlieni and glaucoides all as subspecies of Iceland Gull.
Hi there Richard and gull fanatics.....yes you (and me) are fanatics.
BNA is an important reference, but does not affect official taxonomic
status of this group in North America. The official body here, the AOU,
does not lump thayeri with glaucoides. So here the species are kept
separately.
For the longest time I was convinced that this complex was part of a cline,
with thayeri and glaucoides being end points of this cline, presumably the
variation in morphology that is so obvious in the field and museum (namely
kumlieni) was due to this cline. I figured that the two end points were
each other's closest relatives and that in secondary contact and with
imperfect barriers to interbreeding they were blending into each other.
Well, I wonder now if this interpretation is correct. The work of Crochet
et al (2002. Systematics of large white headed gulls: patters of
mitochondrial DNA variation in western European taxa. Auk 119: 603-620, and
see references there for earlier work) suggest that glaucoides and thayeri
are not each other's closest relatives. There are some oddities in the
patterns found, with Slaty-backed being involved and most closely related
to glaucoides and kumlieni, but two samples of Slaty-backed showing
different DNA patterns. Thayer's on the other hand appears to be most
closely related to Glaucous. There were no samples of Glaucous-winged to
work with, perhaps the inclusion of this taxon would clarify some of the
patterns shown in the cladogram (the tree). More populations need to be
sampled and compared to resolve the relationships of these high Arctic gull
taxa. It does trouble me a bit that the thayeri sample came from Louisiana
rather than a breeding station or the Pacific wintering grounds. I am sure
that it was the only specimen available, not the fault of the workers. But
keeping an open mind, if these patterns are correct or at least the major
point is correct (Iceland and Thayer's are not each other's closest
relatives) then lumping them would create a species that does not represent
the evolutionary history of these taxa accurately. In other words the
species is not monophyletic, and this is something that a lot of folks,
including myself would find troubling. So summing all of this up, given
these new data it seems premature to lump Iceland and Thayer's, and this is
coming from a guy who has thought for a long time that lumping them was
clearly what should have been done. I apologize to Pierre-Andre Crochet if
I misinterpreted any of his superb work.
>Iceland Gulls showing some (supposed) characters of the race 'thayeri'?
If lumped one does get into a taxonomic quagmire. The type specimen for one
of the taxa does not exist any more, this is a problem. You really do not
know what that name, and I forget which one it is, should be applied to. If
there is an extensive cline with few if any pure forms, as has been
suggested by Snell, then trying to apply the subspecies concept to this
group does not work. Richard Snell's suggestion has been to lump the lot
and not recognize any subspecies. This does not mean that variation does
not exist, but subspecies cannot be named for points along a cline. If we
do have two different, and perhaps not closely related taxa, that hybridize
over a zone (as is the case with Western and Glaucous-winged Gulls) there
are two species, with a series of intermediates, in other words hybrids.
These hybrids cannot have a formal name. If kumlieni is in fact a result of
a zone of hybridization between two good species, glaucoides and thayeri,
then kumlieni needs to be dropped as an official taxon.
cheers
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
Biologist
San Francisco Bay Bird Observatory
P.O. Box 247
Alviso, CA 95002
(408)-946-6548
http://www.sfbbo.org/
chucao(AT)comcast.net
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