 |
|
|
|
|
ID-FRONTIERS for November 9-15, 2003
[ Prev Week
| Next Week
| Calendar Month
| ID-FRONTIERS Info
]
|
Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
|
| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | Bruce Mactavish | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 2:23am |
| Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | Killian Mullarney | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 12:00pm |
| Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | Killian Mullarney | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 12:19pm |
| Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | Alan Wormington | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 3:39pm |
| Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland | Marcin Faber | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 3:47pm |
| Re: Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland | Frode Falkenberg | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 4:12pm |
| Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | Millington/BIS | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 4:43pm |
| A Thayer's imposter - but what is it, actually? | Martin Reid | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 5:53pm |
| gull resembling RBilled G from Poland | Jim Barton | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 5:55pm |
| Re: A Thayer's imposter - but what is it,
actually? | Phil Pickering | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 7:51pm |
| Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | matt kenne | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 9:45pm |
| Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | KACastelein and DJLa | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 10:10pm |
| Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | Alvaro Jaramillo | Sun, 9 Nov 2003 | 11:26pm |
| Re: [Birding Gulls] Gull resembling Ring-billed G
from Poland | menotti.passarella@l | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 1:50am |
| Hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | Richard Chandler | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 3:12am |
| Re: A Thayer's imposter - but what is it,
actually? | Kevin McGowan | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 7:11am |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Kevin McGowan | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 7:23am |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Matt Sharp | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 7:59am |
| RE : Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierr | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 8:23am |
| RE : Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Kevin McGowan | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 8:34am |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Kevin McGowan | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 9:03am |
| Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | Harry Hussey | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 9:40am |
| Re: Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland | Harry Hussey | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 9:49am |
| Re: Hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | KACastelein and DJLa | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 11:01am |
| Re: RE : Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Ian Paulsen | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 11:05am |
| Condor 91 436-43 | Millington/BIS | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 3:30pm |
| Re: Condor 91 436-43 | Alvaro Jaramillo | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 3:40pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Paul A. Guris | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 4:05pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Bruce Mactavish | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 5:29pm |
| Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper | matt kenne | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 8:40pm |
| Another larid | John Idzikowski | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 9:03pm |
| Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?) | Peter Adriaens | Mon, 10 Nov 2003 | 11:19pm |
| Re: Another larid | Detlef Gruber | Tue, 11 Nov 2003 | 3:19am |
| Re: Another larid | Frode Falkenberg | Tue, 11 Nov 2003 | 3:37am |
| Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?) | Matt Sharp | Tue, 11 Nov 2003 | 8:46am |
| clarification | Matt Sharp | Tue, 11 Nov 2003 | 10:40am |
| Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?) | Norman D.van Swelm | Tue, 11 Nov 2003 | 1:57pm |
| Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?) | Rik Winters en Ellen | Tue, 11 Nov 2003 | 2:13pm |
| Re: Another larid | Tony Leukering | Tue, 11 Nov 2003 | 3:48pm |
| Mystery furcula | Mike Patterson | Tue, 11 Nov 2003 | 10:48pm |
| Reply: Condor 91 436-43 | Millington/BIS | Wed, 12 Nov 2003 | 8:33am |
| Godwit | Lethaby, Nick | Wed, 12 Nov 2003 | 9:50am |
| American Black Duck or a Mallard hybrid? | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8 | Thu, 13 Nov 2003 | 12:50pm |
| Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?) | Millington/BIS | Thu, 13 Nov 2003 | 2:03pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Millington/BIS | Thu, 13 Nov 2003 | 2:03pm |
| Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?) | Norman D.van Swelm | Thu, 13 Nov 2003 | 3:59pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Steve Hampton | Fri, 14 Nov 2003 | 1:52pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Kevin McGowan | Fri, 14 Nov 2003 | 1:59pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Matt Sharp | Fri, 14 Nov 2003 | 2:41pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Alvaro Jaramillo | Fri, 14 Nov 2003 | 3:56pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Steve Hampton | Fri, 14 Nov 2003 | 4:34pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | Steven Mlodinow | Fri, 14 Nov 2003 | 7:54pm |
| Trinidad Gulls- opinions wanted (especially
European). | Alvaro Jaramillo | Fri, 14 Nov 2003 | 10:35pm |
| More pale Thayer's types | David Vander Pluym | Sat, 15 Nov 2003 | 2:13pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 2:23am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
On November 8, 2003 Ken Knowles and I saw an odd sandpiper with a flock
of 35 White-rumped Sandpipers feeding on flies in rotting kelp at Bear
Cove, Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland. Initial impressions were
Buff-breasted Sandpiper but it was soon apparent there was something
wrong. It looked like a Buff-breasted Sandpiper in a White-rumped
Sandpiper frame. Also the neck and breast streaking were not right for a
Buff-breasted Sandpiper. We decided it was a hybrid Buff-breasted
Sandpiper - hybrid with either a Baird's or White-rumped Sandpiper.
It had a dark rump and was not heard to call. The breast streaking
could be imagined for a cross BBSA x WRSA. It was migrating with
White-rumped Sandpipers. BBSA are rare to scarce migrants in
Newfoundland with the latest record about Oct 10. WRSA are abundant fall
migrants with a distinct wave of juveniles in Oct 20 - Nov 15.
Overall impressions suggest Baird's more than White-rumped as the one of
the parents of this bird. Baird's, like BBSA, are rare to scarce
migrants in Newfoundland with a couple late records around Oct 25.
Legs were yellow but note the dark feet and grayish tone tibia. It was
slightly larger than the adjacent White-rumped Sandpipers and feed like
them by probing in the soft kelp pile.
See photos. Has anyone heard of a hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper? We'd
be interested to hear what others think about the identity of the other
parent.
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoA.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoB.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoC.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoD.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoE.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoF.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoG.jpg
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: Killian Mullarney <kmullarney(AT)EIRCOM.NET>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 12:00pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi Bruce, et al,
What an interesting bird! It is great that you managed to get such good =
photos of it.
I am immediately reminded of a somewhat similar bird observed and =
photographed by E. Vernon Laux in Massachusetts in 1992, the subject of =
a note published in Birding Vol XXVI, February 1994. The author of the =
note very cautiously asked if this particular bird could have been a =
hybrid Buff-breasted X Baird's, which is certainly what it appears to be =
to my eyes. Jonathan Alderfer published a 'counterview', in which after =
a very detailed analysis he concluded that that there was no hard =
evidence to support the hybrid theory, and he felt it was more likely =
just an 'oddball' Buff-breast (see Birding August 1995 pages 306 - 309). =
I still feel there is very convincing grounds to identify the =
Massachusetts bird as a hybrid, as suggested by Vernon Laux, but that's =
another story.... There have now been several suspected Calidrid hybrids =
written up in various journals on both sides of the Atlantic, and the =
interesting thing about virtually all of them is that while they may =
immediately "suggest" a combination of species, it is very difficult to =
find really hard evidence of a second parent-type. Examples that come =
to mind, all of which have been published with excellent photos are a =
suspected Dunlin X Purple Sandpiper hybrid in the UK (I'm sure Richard =
Millington will have something to say about this bird...) and a =
suspected Little Stint X Temminck's Stint in Holland, which was the =
subject of an very impressive analysis by Lars Jonsson. A few years ago, =
I received photos, taken in Massuchusetts of a juvenile shorebird which =
was suspected of having been one of the European races of Dunlin. =
Unfortunately I had to return the slides, but I remember thinking that =
what it really looked like was a hybrid Baird's X Dunlin! Perhaps others =
on this list know more about this bird, and if it was ever written up =
anywhere?
It is difficult to decide whether the 'second parent' of the =
Newfoundland bird is more likely to have been a Baird's or a =
White-rumped, but I think I can see two features which indicate =
White-rumped: It appears to have a small hint of ochre/orange? at the =
base of the lower mandible, and the faint streaks extend well down the =
flanks, both features of juv WrS, but not of Baird's.
Given that the bird was in the company of White-rumps, and that both =
Baird's and Buff-breasted are rare or scarce in Newfoundland, WrS =
parentage is perhaps more likely?
Regards,
Killian Mullarney
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bruce Mactavish=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 9:25 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
On November 8, 2003 Ken Knowles and I saw an odd sandpiper with a =
flock of 35 White-rumped Sandpipers feeding on flies in rotting kelp at =
Bear Cove, Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland. Initial impressions were =
Buff-breasted Sandpiper but it was soon apparent there was something =
wrong. It looked like a Buff-breasted Sandpiper in a White-rumped =
Sandpiper frame. Also the neck and breast streaking were not right for a =
Buff-breasted Sandpiper. We decided it was a hybrid Buff-breasted =
Sandpiper - hybrid with either a Baird's or White-rumped Sandpiper. =20
=20
It had a dark rump and was not heard to call. The breast streaking =
could be imagined for a cross BBSA x WRSA. It was migrating with =
White-rumped Sandpipers. BBSA are rare to scarce migrants in =
Newfoundland with the latest record about Oct 10. WRSA are abundant fall =
migrants with a distinct wave of juveniles in Oct 20 - Nov 15. =20
=20
Overall impressions suggest Baird's more than White-rumped as the one =
of the parents of this bird. Baird's, like BBSA, are rare to scarce =
migrants in Newfoundland with a couple late records around Oct 25. =20
=20
Legs were yellow but note the dark feet and grayish tone tibia. It =
was slightly larger than the adjacent White-rumped Sandpipers and feed =
like them by probing in the soft kelp pile.
=20
See photos. Has anyone heard of a hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper? We'd =
be interested to hear what others think about the identity of the other =
parent.
=20
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoA.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoB.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoC.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoD.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoE.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoF.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoG.jpg
=20
=20
=20
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
=20
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: Killian Mullarney <kmullarney(AT)EIRCOM.NET>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 12:19pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
PS: I have just checked my files and found the correspondence relating =
to the second Massachusetts bird I mentioned. Even better, I find that I =
did not receive slides which I had to return, but good quality laser =
prints, which I was allowed to keep!
This bird was observed and photographed at Pine Point in Scarborough, =
Maine (Cumberland County) from 28 September to 3rd October 1997. It was =
described in detail by my correspondent Lysle Brinker (who also took the =
excellent photos). Perhaps Lysle subscribes to this list and can post =
the photos up for others to see?
All very interesting birds, which collectively suggest that =
hybridisation in Charadriiformes is perhaps not quite as exceptional as =
was once thought. Now that ageing and identifying waders routinely =
involves quite a critical standard of observation, putative hybrids are =
of course much more likely to be detected than might have been the case, =
say twenty-five years or more ago?
Killian Mullarney
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 3:39pm
Everyone:
Another published paper to add to the very short list of accounts
describing hybrid shorebirds:
McLaughlin, K.A., and A. Wormington. 2000. An Apparent Dunlin x
White-rumped Sandpiper Hybrid. Ontario Birds 18: 8-12.
Two colour photos are included of a bird present May 18-19, 1994, at
Hillman Marsh (near Point Pelee), Ontario.
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland
From: Marcin Faber <marfaber(AT)POCZTA.ONET.PL>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 3:47pm
Dear all,
On 4th November 2003 at Jeziorsko reservoir (central Poland), I photographed
this adult gull standing in a flock of Common, Caspian and Black-headed
Gulls.
I would like to show my photos of this bird, please look at:
http://www.czaplon.most.org.pl/gull.htm
The bird was similar to Common Gull but was: slighty larger with longer and
yellow legs, yellow iris, yellow and thick bill with black band, paler
mantle. However jizz
resembling rather Common Gull, white terial crescent was thick and thin
black bill band.
Till now in Poland we have only 5 accepted records of Ring-billed Gull so I
will be very grateful for your opinion and help with the identification.
Any comments are welcome.
Thanks in advance.
All the best.
Marcin Faber
Poland
marfaber(AT)poczta.onet.pl
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland
From: Frode Falkenberg <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 4:12pm
Hi Marcin!
A really nice gull. However, I think it is a bright-eyed adult Common Gull
(CG) because of (comparing with the standard Ring-billed Gull RBG):
Amount of white in the tertial crescent (too wide for RBG)
Size of white mirror in p10 (usually smaller in RBG)
Bill shape (slightly light-weighted for RBG, esp. if it's a big one...)
Black in bill (too faint for RBG, ought to be blacker and in sharper
contrast to the yellow)
Shade of mantle (similar too CG, to dark for RBG)
All the best,
Frode Falkenberg
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/
At 23:47 09.11.2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear all,
>On 4th November 2003 at Jeziorsko reservoir (central Poland), I photographed
>this adult gull standing in a flock of Common, Caspian and Black-headed
>Gulls.
>I would like to show my photos of this bird, please look at:
>http://www.czaplon.most.org.pl/gull.htm
>The bird was similar to Common Gull but was: slighty larger with longer and
>yellow legs, yellow iris, yellow and thick bill with black band, paler
>mantle. However jizz
>resembling rather Common Gull, white terial crescent was thick and thin
>black bill band.
>Till now in Poland we have only 5 accepted records of Ring-billed Gull so I
>will be very grateful for your opinion and help with the identification.
>
>Any comments are welcome.
>Thanks in advance.
>All the best.
>Marcin Faber
>Poland
>marfaber(AT)poczta.onet.pl
>
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 4:43pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi
Not sure I want to say much about the putative Dunlin X Purple Sandpiper =
mentioned by Killian ... not least because I'm now leaning a little more =
towards a Nearctic Dunlin for that bird ... but just wanted to also =
congratulate the photographer on securing such great pictures of the =
latest 'conundrum calidrid'.
Plainly White-rumped or Baird's must be (on primary projection) one =
parent. Could the other parent be a Pectoral Sandpiper? I could almost =
imagine a Pectoral X Baird's/W-rS friendship throwing up a youngster =
looking something like this, if I really try hard enough.
To do so, I have to brush aside the Buff-breast 'feel' of the bird as =
being some sort of genetic quirk, rather than a firm indicator of this =
species being one of the parents...
No answers, just tossing a guess into the melting pot
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: A Thayer's imposter - but what is it, actually?
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 5:53pm
Dear all,
I see that gull season is well and truly upon us, with the recent posts.
This morning I photographed this bugger:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp36.html
- that has me scratching my head; thoughts of all manner of hybrids come to
mind, but none that explain all the features of this bird. Any suggestions?
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: gull resembling RBilled G from Poland
From: Jim Barton <redwingatfp1986(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 5:55pm
Hello. I agree with Frode Falkenberg that the tertial crescent on the
Polish gull looks quite large for Ring-billed Gull, and that the bill does
not look at all right. In RBGU the bill swells noticeably at the gonys. A
distinct angle is usually visible. To observers in the U.S., the size and
shape of the bill of COGU suggest the bill of a plover.
Common Gull can have a pale iris; indeed, of nine readily separable
individuals seen on the Fresh Pond Reservoir in Cambridge, MA over a
seven-year period, only one presented dark eye. Experts in the U.S. used
to reject birds with pale eyes. I don't believe they make that mistake any
longer.
The winter streaking on the head of the Polish bird is a caramel or
butterscotch color. On RBGU the winter streaking is black.
The dark markings on the bill of the Polish bird certainly suggest
RBGU. In my limited experience with COGU, I have only seen dark markings at
or near the tip of the bill on winter birds. (Experts in the U.S. also used
to reject winter birds with such markings.) The flat crown of the head also
suggests RBGU. I think of COGU as having a much more rounded head. Also
suggesting RBGU is the length of the leg. The knee is quite evident on the
Polish bird. I think of the knee as barely visible on COGU.
I would hesitate to make a judgment based on the apparent shade of the
mantle, especially in a photo. Most of the
COGU we see in MA in winter (usually two or three per year) do not look
noticeably darker than RBGU. I have to look hard to convince myself that
the COGU I'm seeing is darker.
RBGU can present large apical spots, but none even approaching the size
of the mirror on the Polish Bird. The Polish bird also looks long-winged.
I grant that if I saw this bird in the U.S, I would have a hard time
selling it as COGU. But I think I would prevail based on the bill size and
shape, the tertial crescent, the long wings and the very large apical
mirror.
I would very much like to hear more about the variability of dark
markings on the bills of COGU in winter.
Yours,
Jim Barton
redwingatfp1986(AT)comcast.net
Cambridge, MA
US Coordinator, Proact
campaigning for birds and their habitats
before it's too late
www.proact-campaigns.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: A Thayer's imposter - but what is it,
actually?
From: Phil Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 7:51pm
Looks a lot like one of the brownish, less solidly patterened
juv smithsonianus that winter on the west coast. They or this
bird might not be pure, but I don't see anything drastically
un-Herring-like in the photos. My guess is, if not pure, it's at
least mostly smith (presume small female). Could be some
Glaucous or Glaucous-winged in there.
Cheers,
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp36.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: matt kenne <mkenne(AT)NETAMUMAIL.COM>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 9:45pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi, All!
Bruce wrote:
"On November 8, 2003 Ken Knowles and I saw an odd sandpiper with a flock =
of 35 White-rumped Sandpipers feeding on flies in rotting kelp at Bear =
Cove, Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland. Initial impressions were =
Buff-breasted Sandpiper but it was soon apparent there was something =
wrong. It looked like a Buff-breasted Sandpiper in a White-rumped =
Sandpiper frame. Also the neck and breast streaking were not right for a =
Buff-breasted Sandpiper. We decided it was a hybrid Buff-breasted =
Sandpiper - hybrid with either a Baird's or White-rumped Sandpiper." =20
Some first thoughts: While this is obviously an odd bird, I'm hesitating =
from joining the Buff-breasted hybrid camp so far. What strikes me about =
this bird is the lack of any structural indication of Buff-breasted =
Sandpiper- the posture; the longish, thinner neck; and the "squarish" =
head are BBSA traits that I think would change this normal Calidris =
profile if it were a hybrid. What's more, the usual image of the =
Buff-breasted face centrally tapering into its shorter, plover-like bill =
is missing. I'm not sure how to describe this- the feathering of the =
sloping forehead and "chin" extending farther out before the bill base =
begins?=20
I'm leaning towards a Caladris cross at this point. I do see the =
White-rumped traits put forth by Killian, but I don't see any contrast =
between the feather edging of the crown, ear coverts, mantle, and scaps =
(reddish on WRSA) and the edging of the rest of the upperparts feathers =
that I would expect. Would wear make the edges uniformly buffy-white and =
Baird's-like across the bird by this late date? I think Richard's =
Pec/Baird's cross has some merit, although again there isn't any =
Pec-like contrast in the edging of the upperparts, or white mantle =
lines. It could, however, encourage some twist of leg color. I also =
think the breeding biology angle of a Pectoral cross makes more sense: =
I've read that male Pectorals can be sexually aggressive towards any =
shorebird that crosses its territory- alive or dead, male or female. =
It's much easier to imagine a male Pectoral having his way with a female =
Baird's or some other species wandering into the wrong neighborhood than =
it is to picture a "wrong" shorebird cracking into the Buff-breasted lek =
display and luring one of the gathered into trying something completely =
freaky.
Matthew Kenne =20
Algona, Iowa
mkenne(AT)netamumail.com
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 10:10pm
Folks,
Wow, facinating bird. I dare not attempt to guess what the parents are,
but I too am wondering like Richard if the appearance of the bird does
not really clue us in on who the parents are. Part of me wonders how a
BBSA could be the parent considering the very odd courting behavior they
have. Could a female WRSA really be attracted to a displaying male
Buffy? Or could a female Buffy really be attracted to a male
White-rump? Maybe a hormone overloaded White-rump male forced himself
on a female Buffy (is there a terminology for bird rape???)? But, maybe
it's just looks like a Buffy, but the parents are something else?
Buffies are a bit larger than White-rumps too, should one think this
bird should be a bit larger than the White-rumps around it? But then,
Pecs are a bit bigger than White-rumps too, and who says size would be
intermediate anyway? Just some random thoughts.....
Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com
Killian Mullarney wrote:
> Hi Bruce, et al,
>
> What an interesting bird! It is great that you managed to get such good
> photos of it.
>
> I am immediately reminded of a somewhat similar bird observed and
> photographed by E. Vernon Laux in Massachusetts in 1992, the subject of
> a note published in Birding Vol XXVI, February 1994. The author of the
> note very cautiously asked if this particular bird could have been a
> hybrid Buff-breasted X Baird's, which is certainly what it appears to be
> to my eyes. Jonathan Alderfer published a 'counterview', in which after
> a very detailed analysis he concluded that that there was no hard
> evidence to support the hybrid theory, and he felt it was more likely
> just an 'oddball' Buff-breast (see Birding August 1995 pages 306 - 309).
>
> I still feel there is very convincing grounds to identify the
> Massachusetts bird as a hybrid, as suggested by Vernon Laux, but that's
> another story.... There have now been several suspected Calidrid hybrids
> written up in various journals on both sides of the Atlantic, and the
> interesting thing about virtually all of them is that while they
> may immediately "suggest" a combination of species, it is very difficult
> to find really hard evidence of a second parent-type. Examples that
> come to mind, all of which have been published with excellent photos are
> a suspected Dunlin X Purple Sandpiper hybrid in the UK (I'm sure Richard
> Millington will have something to say about this bird...) and a
> suspected Little Stint X Temminck's Stint in Holland, which was the
> subject of an very impressive analysis by Lars Jonsson. A few years ago,
> I received photos, taken in Massuchusetts of a juvenile shorebird which
> was suspected of having been one of the European races of Dunlin.
> Unfortunately I had to return the slides, but I remember thinking that
> what it really looked like was a hybrid Baird's X Dunlin! Perhaps others
> on this list know more about this bird, and if it was ever written up
> anywhere?
>
> It is difficult to decide whether the 'second parent' of the
> Newfoundland bird is more likely to have been a Baird's or a
> White-rumped, but I think I can see two features which indicate
> White-rumped: It appears to have a small hint of ochre/orange? at the
> base of the lower mandible, and the faint streaks extend well down the
> flanks, both features of juv WrS, but not of Baird's.
> Given that the bird was in the company of White-rumps, and that both
> Baird's and Buff-breasted are rare or scarce in Newfoundland, WrS
> parentage is perhaps more likely?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Killian Mullarney
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Bruce Mactavish <mailto:bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> <mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 9:25 AM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
>
> On November 8, 2003 Ken Knowles and I saw an odd sandpiper with a
> flock of 35 White-rumped Sandpipers feeding on flies in rotting kelp
> at Bear Cove, Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland. Initial impressions
> were Buff-breasted Sandpiper but it was soon apparent there was
> something wrong. It looked like a Buff-breasted Sandpiper in a
> White-rumped Sandpiper frame. Also the neck and breast streaking
> were not right for a Buff-breasted Sandpiper. We decided it was a
> hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper – hybrid with either a Baird’s or
> White-rumped Sandpiper.
>
>
>
> It had a dark rump and was not heard to call. The breast streaking
> could be imagined for a cross BBSA x WRSA. It was migrating with
> White-rumped Sandpipers. BBSA are rare to scarce migrants in
> Newfoundland with the latest record about Oct 10. WRSA are abundant
> fall migrants with a distinct wave of juveniles in Oct 20 – Nov 15.
>
>
>
> Overall impressions suggest Baird’s more than White-rumped as the
> one of the parents of this bird. Baird’s, like BBSA, are rare to
> scarce migrants in Newfoundland with a couple late records around
> Oct 25.
>
>
>
> Legs were yellow but note the dark feet and grayish tone tibia. It
> was slightly larger than the adjacent White-rumped Sandpipers and
> feed like them by probing in the soft kelp pile.
>
>
>
> See photos. Has anyone heard of a hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper?
> We’d be interested to hear what others think about the identity of
> the other parent.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoA.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoB.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoC.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoD.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoE.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoF.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoG.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce Mactavish
>
> St. John's, Newfoundland
>
> Canada
>
> bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
>
>
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 9 Nov 2003 11:26pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
>Hi, All!
>
>I'm leaning towards a Caladris cross at this point. I do see the
>White-rumped traits put forth by Killian, but I don't see any contrast
>between the feather edging of the crown, ear coverts, mantle, and scaps
>(reddish on WRSA) and the edging of the rest of the upperparts feathers
>that I would expect. Would wear make the edges uniformly buffy-white and
>Baird's-like across the bird by this late date? I think Richard's
>Pec/Baird's cross has some merit, although again there isn't any Pec-like
>contrast in the edging of the upperparts, or white mantle lines. It could,
>however, encourage some twist of leg color. I also think the breeding
>biology angle of a Pectoral cross makes more sense: I've read that male
>Pectorals can be sexually aggressive towards any shorebird that crosses
>its territory- alive or dead, male or female. It's much easier to imagine
>a male Pectoral having his way with a female Baird's or some other species
>wandering into the wrong neighborhood than it is to picture a "wrong"
>shorebird cracking into the Buff-breasted lek display and luring one of
>the gathered into trying something completely freaky.
>
I would disagree here to some extent. Birds that do not form pair bonds are
more likely to produce hybrids than those which do pair off, all things
being equal. Hummingbirds for example do not form pair bonds, many are
lekking species or show other interesting breeding systems. There are lots
of hummingbird hybrids known, often intergeneric hybrids. Grouse also are
known to hybridize and produce oddities here and there, they also have poor
to non-existent pair bonds. Birds that lek do not form pair bonds, and
males are not choosy at all in mating. This is basically what you are
saying about Pectoral Sandpipers, they are not very choosy, or to put it
another way the cost of mating with the wrong species are incredibly low.
Males of shorebirds that pair off for a period of time in the breeding
season have a much higher cost to mating with the wrong species, the cost
is huge if they also care for the young. Lekking species show no male
parental care. So really from a behavioural perspective Buff-breasted
Sandpipers should be no more choosy than Pectoral Sandpipers or Ruffs. In
fact these shorebirds, and others that are similar in their breeding
system, are the ones you would expect to show a higher rate of
hybridization than others where there is male parental care, or pair bonds.
A female Baird's, or White-rumped that wanders into a display area of
Buff-breasted Sandpipers may be ignored, but then maybe not...there is no
cost to mating with her from the Buffy's perspective. Now the female
Baird's would incur a cost, but in certain situations she may have little
or no choice as Buff-breasted Sands are much larger. I suggested to Bruce
that Buff-breasted and Baird's were a good and most likely combination.
Apart from the look of the mystery bird, the two are found in similar
grassy tundra. The White-rumped Sandpiper likes a bit more sparse looking
tundra, with less grass and more pebbles and the like. If Buff-breasted
Sandpiper is one of the parents I would hazard to say it was the male. So
all we need to do is catch the bird, and study the mitochondrial DNA to
find out what the mother was! As I said to Bruce, how is that for speculation.
I am glad you brought up the breeding system of these birds Matt, I think
that taking these characteristics into consideration does increase the
likelihood of certain crosses over others.
regards
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
Biologist
San Francisco Bay Bird Observatory
P.O. Box 247
Alviso, CA 95002
(408)-946-6548
http://www.sfbbo.org/
chucao(AT)comcast.net
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: [Birding Gulls] Gull resembling Ring-billed G
from Poland
From: "menotti.passarella(AT)libero.it" <menotti.passarella@LIBERO.IT>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 1:50am
Hello from Italy.
Let me comment this bird as the founder of the first accepted Ring-billed Gull
for Italy.
According to me this is not a RBG.
The color of the mantle of the Italian bird was the same of that of BHG; the
Polish is darker than BHG (as usual with Common Gull).
The wing tip of the Italian Gull had a majority of black; the Polish bird show a
majority of white as usual with Common Gull
The body shape of the Polish bird is typical for Common Gull.
Regards
Menotti Passarella
Italy
menotti.passarella(AT)libero.it
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/birdinggulls/
---------- Initial Header -----------
From : "Marcin Faber" marfaber(AT)poczta.onet.pl
To : birdinggulls(AT)yahoogroups.com,BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu
Cc :
Date : Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:47:54 +0100
Subject : [Birding Gulls] Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland
> Dear all,
> On 4th November 2003 at Jeziorsko reservoir (central Poland), I photographed
> this adult gull standing in a flock of Common, Caspian and Black-headed
> Gulls.
> I would like to show my photos of this bird, please look at:
> http://www.czaplon.most.org.pl/gull.htm
> The bird was similar to Common Gull but was: slighty larger with longer and
> yellow legs, yellow iris, yellow and thick bill with black band, paler
> mantle. However jizz
> resembling rather Common Gull, white terial crescent was thick and thin
> black bill band.
> Till now in Poland we have only 5 accepted records of Ring-billed Gull so I
> will be very grateful for your opinion and help with the identification.
>
> Any comments are welcome.
> Thanks in advance.
> All the best.
> Marcin Faber
> Poland
> marfaber(AT)poczta.onet.pl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
> http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/70TolB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> birdinggulls-unsubscribe(AT)yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: Richard Chandler <rchandler(AT)2RUSLAND.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 3:12am
Dear All
To add to Killian Mullarny's request list, on ID Frontiers back in 1999 Jeff
Gilligan (I think) reported that "I photographed a bird that Gerard Lillie
and I found in early September, 1998 at Bandon, Oregon that appears to be a
hybrid of Baird's X Least Sandpiper."
Was an account of this ever published? Again, could photos of this be
posted?
Best wishes, Richard Chandler
(rchandler(AT)2rusland.freeserve.co.uk)
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: A Thayer's imposter - but what is it,
actually?
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 7:11am
At 06:46 PM 11/9/2003 -0600, Martin Reid wrote:
>Dear all,
>I see that gull season is well and truly upon us, with the recent posts.
>This morning I photographed this bugger:
>http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp36.html
>- that has me scratching my head; thoughts of all manner of hybrids come to
>mind, but none that explain all the features of this bird. Any suggestions?
>Cheers,
>Martin
>
>
>Martin Reid
>Fort Worth, Texas
>mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
>http://www.martinreid.com
I wouldn't give this bird a second look here in upstate New York. I see
nothing on it that is not smithsonianus Herring Gull. We get lots of birds
looking like this around here.
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 7:23am
At 05:16 PM 11/8/2003 -0800, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
>... The work of Crochet
>et al (2002. Systematics of large white headed gulls: patters of
>mitochondrial DNA variation in western European taxa. Auk 119: 603-620, and
>see references there for earlier work) suggest that glaucoides and thayeri
>are not each other's closest relatives. There are some oddities in the
>patterns found, with Slaty-backed being involved and most closely related
>to glaucoides and kumlieni, but two samples of Slaty-backed showing
>different DNA patterns. Thayer's on the other hand appears to be most
>closely related to Glaucous. ...
This was an excellent paper, but some of the surprising findings were from
limited sample sizes and could use some more corroboration (as the authors
themselves indicated). I found this conclusion about Thayer's Gull to be
particularly suspect. It was based on a single specimen, and that was from
far outside the normal range of the species. I mean, how much do you trust
a "Thayer's Gull" from Louisiana? I suspect the result says more about
Thayer's Gull identification in the middle of the US than it does about
what true Thayer's actually are. I would love to see the genetics done on
all eastern "Thayer's" and compare them to real, West Coast ones to find
out what they really are. That would be an interesting study.
I reserve judgement on these taxa until we get more data. The Crochet et
al. paper has come up with some interesting hypotheses about American gulls
(Thayer's with Glaucous; American Herring separate from European); I can't
wait for the tests.
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 7:59am
Alvaro Jaramillo wrote
>3) Kumlien's tend to show primaries that have a dark little
>teardrop shape mark along the tip of the rachis. This pattern
>is variable in darkness and extent, but seems to be relatively
>consistent, on the other hand it does not tend to be shown by
>Thayer's.
I have heard the dark marks on the primary tips
as shown on the image of the bird Phil Pickering
posted mentioned as a good mark to separate ThGu
from Kumliens. But as Phill's bird demonstrates, and
as Alvaro says the birds just show a tendency towards
more or less pigmentation on the primary tips. It can
not be considered a diagnostic mark one way or another.
In my experience with Kumliens and Thayer's on the
East coast (and on the web and in photos) the only
consistent feature of the 2 seems to be variation in the
pattern and extent of dark pigmentation in the plumage.
ThGu tend to have more solidly dark primaries and tertials
while Kumliens tend to have paler and less solidly patterned
primaries and tertials. But it seems to be a continuous range
of variation with no clear demarcation between ThGu and
Kumliens in regard to any feature, including secondary bar
and tail pattern. Or at least the demarcation line is obscured
by individual and age related variation.
Phil Pickering wrote
>I do see a small number of pale-end Thayer's annually that
>show diamond-like shapes in the primary tips. This was also
>taken in Nov:
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/thayers2001.jpg
It would seem that the easiest explanation for this is a good
amount of gene-flow between whatever taxonomic units are
out there, whether they be monophyletic and clinal or from
different lineages like Western and Glaucous winged.
Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
>The work of Crochet et al (2002. Systematics of large white
>headed gulls: patters of mitochondrial DNA variation in western
>European taxa. Auk 119: 603-620, and see references there
>for earlier work) suggest that glaucoides and thayeri are not
>each other's closest relatives.
And
>It does trouble me a bit that the thayeri sample came from Louisiana
>rather than a breeding station or the Pacific wintering grounds. I am
>sure that it was the only specimen available, not the fault of the
>workers.
It seems that this is a crucial point regarding the work by Crochet
et al and that it really makes me wonder if that bird were a "pure"
Thayer's. Especially considering some of the odd results involving
Slaty-backed. Perhaps equally important, if the bird were a "pure"
Thayer's is whether it were a "typical" bird with moderate amount
of pigment, a dark Herring-like bird or a pale kumlien's-like bird
>There were no samples of Glaucous-winged to work with, perhaps
>the inclusion of this taxon would clarify some of the patterns shown
>in the cladogram (the tree).
I think this is another important point. I am guessing that Glaucous
winged may be an important piece of the puzzle. I don't mean to
criticize that work because that would be beyond my understanding
but the simple fact of what was sampled is an important point to
consider in interpreting the work by Crochet et al.
Alvaro wrote:
>If lumped one does get into a taxonomic quagmire. The type
>specimen for one of the taxa does not exist any more, this is
>a problem. You really do not know what that name, and I forget
>which one it is, should be applied to.
In the absence of genetic work done on samples from breeding
birds from precisely located breeding locations I suggest that the
the Thayer's-Kumliens-Iceland Gull situation is a taxonomic quagmire
especially from the perspective of the field observer. If the type
specimen of one of the birds is lost it is at this point only a matter
of hearsay (sort of an ornithological whisper-down-the-lane) as
to what bird the name applies to.
I was some what disappointed by how Snell treated young birds
in the BNA account since he seemed to ignore the fact that
more heavily pigmented young birds tend to winter in the west
with pale birds in the east but his point that no controlled studies
have been done showing that pale birds are produced by Kumliens
gull and darker birds are produced by Thayer's is not trivial.
This is something a banding program could conceivably accomplish.
I think the Alula articles by Martin Elliot, Bruce Mactavish, and Steve
Howell are an important step forward for birders in how to separate
Thayers and Kumliens as adults. It also provides a good quantitative
measure of the patterns seen on the east and west coasts during
winter. Until something similar is done with young birds birders are
left with what is an essentially subjective standard for differentiating
between paler and darker birds.
Matt Sharp
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RE : Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS-MOP.FR>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 8:23am
Dear all,
Kevin is right to be cautious about the results on thayeri in our previous
paper. I had not realized at the time when I requested this specimen from LSUMZ
that this specimen was out of range, and of contentious ID.
We now have sequenced 5 more specimens of thayeri from California and the
Pacific coast. A short note should appear soon in the Auk to complete our
previous paper. None of these specimens group with our previous "thayeri". None
groups with glaucoides or kumlieni either... but with glaucescens.
Now, if you want my opinion at this time, the "white-winged gull" complex is a
mess even bigger than the "Herring Gull mess". We need more specimens, and more
variable markers (the hypervariable mtDNA segment of Liebers and Helbig would be
nice, but we still haven't managed to sequence it on our lab). Iceland (inc.
Kumlien's), Thayer's, Glaucous, Glaucous-winged are very closely related. Slaty
backed and Vega might very well fall in this group also. They seem to be of even
more recent origin than the "Herring Lesser Black backed " group. We have to
wait for Helbig's team's results (they still have some paper to publish) and
probably try to collect as mush material as we can from this group (you can all
help). May be then we can see a bit clearer, although visits to the breeding
colonies will always be the best option...
For the relationships of smithsonianus (closer the this "white-winged" group
than to the Old World Herring group), this has now been confirmed by additional
specimens and other teams (Helbig's among others) and can be now considered as
"safe".
Pierre-André Crochet
CEFE-CNRS
1919, route de Mende
34293 Montpellier cedex 5
France
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38
crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs-mop.fr
-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Kevin McGowan
Envoyé : lundi 10 novembre 2003 15:23
À : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
At 05:16 PM 11/8/2003 -0800, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
>... The work of Crochet
>et al (2002. Systematics of large white headed gulls: patters of
>mitochondrial DNA variation in western European taxa. Auk 119: 603-620, and
>see references there for earlier work) suggest that glaucoides and thayeri
>are not each other's closest relatives. There are some oddities in the
>patterns found, with Slaty-backed being involved and most closely related
>to glaucoides and kumlieni, but two samples of Slaty-backed showing
>different DNA patterns. Thayer's on the other hand appears to be most
>closely related to Glaucous. ...
This was an excellent paper, but some of the surprising findings were from
limited sample sizes and could use some more corroboration (as the authors
themselves indicated). I found this conclusion about Thayer's Gull to be
particularly suspect. It was based on a single specimen, and that was from
far outside the normal range of the species. I mean, how much do you trust
a "Thayer's Gull" from Louisiana? I suspect the result says more about
Thayer's Gull identification in the middle of the US than it does about
what true Thayer's actually are. I would love to see the genetics done on
all eastern "Thayer's" and compare them to real, West Coast ones to find
out what they really are. That would be an interesting study.
I reserve judgement on these taxa until we get more data. The Crochet et
al. paper has come up with some interesting hypotheses about American gulls
(Thayer's with Glaucous; American Herring separate from European); I can't
wait for the tests.
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RE : Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 8:34am
At 04:23 PM 11/10/2003 +0100, Pierre-André CROCHET wrote:
>We now have sequenced 5 more specimens of thayeri from California and the
>Pacific coast. A short note should appear soon in the Auk to complete our
>previous paper. None of these specimens group with our previous "thayeri".
>None groups with glaucoides or kumlieni either... but with glaucescens.
This is great. What a complicated world we live in! So what do you think
the Louisiana bird was? I find this result very interesting for those of
us trying to figure out what those Thayer's-like birds are that we keep
finding. It looks like the situation could get murkier before it gets clearer.
>For the relationships of smithsonianus (closer the this "white-winged"
>group than to the Old World Herring group), this has now been confirmed by
>additional specimens and other teams (Helbig's among others) and can be
>now considered as "safe".
Thanks for that word. I've been worried about the overwhelming acceptance
of what you yourself stated needed to be confirmed. Nice to know I can
relax about that now. ;^)
Keep up the good work. There are plenty of us out here who can't wait for
the next installment.
All the best,
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 9:03am
Can someone help me out here in this discussion? I am having a little
trouble seeing Alvaro's gull
<http://chucao.home.comcast.net/PALETHAYER.html>as a Thayer's. The more
important characters I try to use to separate Thayer's and Iceland
(Kumlien's) gulls here in New York are the markings on the tertials and the
tail. Lots of medium-gray tertial patterning (i.e., mostly gray with some
white) = Thayer's; mostly white with darker gray edging = Iceland. All
medium-gray tail = Thayer's; mostly white tail with darker gray band =
Iceland. On both these characters his bird would land in the Iceland
zone. True? Especially when compared with
<http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/thayers2001.jpg> and
<http://chucao.home.comcast.net/thayers1.jpg>.
I am willing to admit the other characters people mentioned, but I'm having
a hard time with these.
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: Harry Hussey <hhussey3(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 9:40am
Hi all,
Killian Mullarney wrote:
"but I think I can see two features which indicate
White-rumped: It appears to have a small hint of
ochre/orange? at the base of the lower mandible, and
the faint streaks extend well down the flanks, both
features of juv WrS, but not of Baird's."
If I may be so bold,may I suggest a third feature
indicating White-rumped:in Photograph F,there is a
noticable(to my eyes at least)mantle "V",as is shown
by White-rumped Sandpiper but not by Baird's,so
strengthening the case for WRS being the Calidris
parent?
A really interesting bird,and probably not safe to
call as resulting from a particular hybrid combination
with any certainty?
Harry Hussey,Cork,Ireland
--- Killian Mullarney <kmullarney(AT)EIRCOM.NET> wrote:
> Hi Bruce, et al,
>
> What an interesting bird! It is great that you
> managed to get such good photos of it.
>
> I am immediately reminded of a somewhat similar bird
> observed and photographed by E. Vernon Laux in
> Massachusetts in 1992, the subject of a note
> published in Birding Vol XXVI, February 1994. The
> author of the note very cautiously asked if this
> particular bird could have been a hybrid
> Buff-breasted X Baird's, which is certainly what it
> appears to be to my eyes. Jonathan Alderfer
> published a 'counterview', in which after a very
> detailed analysis he concluded that that there was
> no hard evidence to support the hybrid theory, and
> he felt it was more likely just an 'oddball'
> Buff-breast (see Birding August 1995 pages 306 -
> 309).
>
> I still feel there is very convincing grounds to
> identify the Massachusetts bird as a hybrid, as
> suggested by Vernon Laux, but that's another
> story.... There have now been several suspected
> Calidrid hybrids written up in various journals on
> both sides of the Atlantic, and the interesting
> thing about virtually all of them is that while they
> may immediately "suggest" a combination of species,
> it is very difficult to find really hard evidence
> of a second parent-type. Examples that come to mind,
> all of which have been published with excellent
> photos are a suspected Dunlin X Purple Sandpiper
> hybrid in the UK (I'm sure Richard Millington will
> have something to say about this bird...) and a
> suspected Little Stint X Temminck's Stint in
> Holland, which was the subject of an very impressive
> analysis by Lars Jonsson. A few years ago, I
> received photos, taken in Massuchusetts of a
> juvenile shorebird which was suspected of having
> been one of the European races of Dunlin.
> Unfortunately I had to return the slides, but I
> remember thinking that what it really looked like
> was a hybrid Baird's X Dunlin! Perhaps others on
> this list know more about this bird, and if it was
> ever written up anywhere?
>
> It is difficult to decide whether the 'second
> parent' of the Newfoundland bird is more likely to
> have been a Baird's or a White-rumped, but I think I
> can see two features which indicate White-rumped: It
> appears to have a small hint of ochre/orange? at the
> base of the lower mandible, and the faint streaks
> extend well down the flanks, both features of juv
> WrS, but not of Baird's.
> Given that the bird was in the company of
> White-rumps, and that both Baird's and Buff-breasted
> are rare or scarce in Newfoundland, WrS parentage is
> perhaps more likely?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Killian Mullarney
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Mactavish
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 9:25 AM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
>
>
> On November 8, 2003 Ken Knowles and I saw an odd
> sandpiper with a flock of 35 White-rumped Sandpipers
> feeding on flies in rotting kelp at Bear Cove,
> Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland. Initial impressions
> were Buff-breasted Sandpiper but it was soon
> apparent there was something wrong. It looked like
> a Buff-breasted Sandpiper in a White-rumped
> Sandpiper frame. Also the neck and breast streaking
> were not right for a Buff-breasted Sandpiper. We
> decided it was a hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper -
> hybrid with either a Baird's or White-rumped
> Sandpiper.
>
>
>
> It had a dark rump and was not heard to call. The
> breast streaking could be imagined for a cross BBSA
> x WRSA. It was migrating with White-rumped
> Sandpipers. BBSA are rare to scarce migrants in
> Newfoundland with the latest record about Oct 10.
> WRSA are abundant fall migrants with a distinct wave
> of juveniles in Oct 20 - Nov 15.
>
>
>
> Overall impressions suggest Baird's more than
> White-rumped as the one of the parents of this bird.
> Baird's, like BBSA, are rare to scarce migrants in
> Newfoundland with a couple late records around Oct
> 25.
>
>
>
> Legs were yellow but note the dark feet and
> grayish tone tibia. It was slightly larger than the
> adjacent White-rumped Sandpipers and feed like them
> by probing in the soft kelp pile.
>
>
>
> See photos. Has anyone heard of a hybrid
> Buff-breasted Sandpiper? We'd be interested to hear
> what others think about the identity of the other
> parent.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoA.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoB.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoC.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoD.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoE.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoF.jpg
>
>
>
> http://stubird.dreamhost.com/PhotoG.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce Mactavish
>
> St. John's, Newfoundland
>
> Canada
>
> bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
>
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland
From: Harry Hussey <hhussey3(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 9:49am
Hi Marcin,
Ring-billed Gull is a scarce but regular winter
visitor here in Ireland,and Common Gull of the
nominate race is a local breeder but common winter
visitor,so I have plenty of experience of both.
In my opinion,there is too much wrong with this bird
for it to be a Ring-billed Gull,for reasons pointed
out already by others.While I concede that there is a
possibility that this is a Common x Ring-billed
hybrid(or backcross between such a bird and a "pure"
Common),I feel that it probably falls within the range
of variation of Common Gull.
Sorry I couldn't make it a Ring-billed!
Harry Hussey,Cork,Ireland
--- Marcin Faber <marfaber(AT)POCZTA.ONET.PL> wrote:
> Dear all,
> On 4th November 2003 at Jeziorsko reservoir (central
> Poland), I photographed
> this adult gull standing in a flock of Common,
> Caspian and Black-headed
> Gulls.
> I would like to show my photos of this bird, please
> look at:
> http://www.czaplon.most.org.pl/gull.htm
> The bird was similar to Common Gull but was: slighty
> larger with longer and
> yellow legs, yellow iris, yellow and thick bill with
> black band, paler
> mantle. However jizz
> resembling rather Common Gull, white terial crescent
> was thick and thin
> black bill band.
> Till now in Poland we have only 5 accepted records
> of Ring-billed Gull so I
> will be very grateful for your opinion and help with
> the identification.
>
> Any comments are welcome.
> Thanks in advance.
> All the best.
> Marcin Faber
> Poland
> marfaber(AT)poczta.onet.pl
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 11:01am
I live in Bandon and did not get to see this bird, nor have I ever seen
the photos, and no article was ever written. I'll check into it with
Jeff and see if he can post any photos.
PS - sorry about my size comment, rereading the original post I see that
the bird WAS slightly bigger than adjacent WRSA. Alvaro has a very good
argument about the lek species and the cost of mating with some other
species.....I was thinking that such complex mating behavior would
effectively exclude a wrong mate.....
Cheers
Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com
Richard Chandler wrote:
> Dear All
>
> To add to Killian Mullarny's request list, on ID Frontiers back in 1999 Jeff
> Gilligan (I think) reported that "I photographed a bird that Gerard Lillie
> and I found in early September, 1998 at Bandon, Oregon that appears to be a
> hybrid of Baird's X Least Sandpiper."
>
> Was an account of this ever published? Again, could photos of this be
> posted?
>
> Best wishes, Richard Chandler
> (rchandler(AT)2rusland.freeserve.co.uk)
>
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: RE : Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 11:05am
HI ALL:
I've got a solution: Lump all northern "white-winged" gulls into Northern
Gull (Larus borealis)!!
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Condor 91 436-43
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 3:30pm
Hi
Does anyone out there possess:
Condor 91 436-443 (1989) ?
I have a couple of questions to ask.
many thanks in advance
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Condor 91 436-43
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 3:40pm
At 10:29 PM 11/10/2003 +0000, Millington/BIS wrote:
>Hi
>
>Does anyone out there possess:
>Condor 91 436-443 (1989) ?
>
>I have a couple of questions to ask.
Go to:
http://elibrary.unm.edu/Condor/
It is free!!
cheers
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
Biologist
San Francisco Bay Bird Observatory
P.O. Box 247
Alviso, CA 95002
(408)-946-6548
http://www.sfbbo.org/
chucao(AT)comcast.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: "Paul A. Guris" <list-servers(AT)paulagics.com>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 4:05pm
I'm with Kevin on this one. I would never try to turn this into a Thayer's
here
in the East.
Since we're discussing birds that look like this, here is a bird that I thought
did not fit Thayer's, but appears similar to Alvaro's bird. Maybe some of you
West Coasters would comment? Go to the following URL and select "Mike Smith"
from the Member's Gallery dropdown:
http://www.udel.edu/dosbirds/photogallery/main.htm
-PAG
Paul A. Guris
See Life Paulagics
P.O. Box 161
Green Lane, PA 18054
www.paulagics.com
215-234-6805
info(AT)paulagics.com
Quoting Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>:
> Can someone help me out here in this discussion? I am having a little
> trouble seeing Alvaro's gull
> <http://chucao.home.comcast.net/PALETHAYER.html>as a Thayer's. The more
> important characters I try to use to separate Thayer's and Iceland
> (Kumlien's) gulls here in New York are the markings on the tertials and the
> tail. Lots of medium-gray tertial patterning (i.e., mostly gray with some
> white) = Thayer's; mostly white with darker gray edging = Iceland. All
> medium-gray tail = Thayer's; mostly white tail with darker gray band =
> Iceland. On both these characters his bird would land in the Iceland
> zone. True? Especially when compared with
> <http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/thayers2001.jpg> and
> <http://chucao.home.comcast.net/thayers1.jpg>.
>
> I am willing to admit the other characters people mentioned, but I'm having
> a hard time with these.
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
> *****************************************************
> Kevin J. McGowan
> Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
> 159 Sapsucker Woods Road
> Ithaca, NY 14850
> 607/254-2432
> fax 607/254-2111
> kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
> http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 5:29pm
I think this is Thayer's Gull. The primaries are too dark in relation
to the overall paleness of the entire bird for kumlieni. Primaries this
dark are possible on 1st winter kumlieni but such birds are also overall
dark birds. This bird and photos of pale 1st winter Thayer's-like gulls
from the Yukon and California, as well as mainline Thayer's, share a
characteristic that gives them a different look from kumlieni. They are
more coarsely marked. This is caused largely by heavily marked
scapulars and median wing coverts. The feathers are fully or nearly
fully marked with brown. Kumlieni are more like 1st winter Glaucous
Gulls with brown markings distinctly concentrated toward the perimeter
of these feathers and therefore leaving a pale hollowed out appearance.
This bird would stand out as an oddity among kumlieni in Newfoundland.
I probably wouldn't call it a Thayer's Gull as the species is too rare
here to take chances with an unusual looker. It would end up in that
category of birds on hold until we know more. But in California one
could probably safely slide this into the Thayer's Gull slot.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alvaro Jaramillo
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 1:38 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
Hey folks
Gull season is definitely here, today I had my first Thayer's Gulls.
They are not all that common here on the coast, but abundant in south
San
Francisco Bay. We have had several very pale Thayer's/Iceland gulls in
the
south bay over the years but they usually occur late in the season when
wear and fading are a factor. Today I saw a pale, rather unicolored bird
that stood out as being something different in Half Moon Bay, coastal
San
Mateo County, California. You can access photos by following this link:
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/PALETHAYER.html
The last photo is typical juv. Thayer's Gull also taken today.
The pale bird (Juvenile) was a pale, uncolored coffee and cream colour,
resembling the general colour shade of Juvenile Glaucous-winged Gulls
near
it. Photo 1 compares it with a Glaucous-winged Gull to show size and
structural differences.
Structurally this bird was like a Thayer's Gull, noticeably smaller than
Glaucous-winged and Western gulls besides it, with smaller, shallower
bill,
longer wings, and shorter legs. I thought at first that it might be a
runt
Glaucous-winged but decided this was not the case because:
1) Not just smaller, but very different in structure.
2) Structure differed by having much longer wings, noticeably shorter
legs,
and proportionately smaller bill and shorter neck.
3) Pattern of feathers unlike Juvenile Glaucous-winged Gulls, showing
more
markings on mantle and particularly on greater coverts. Banded greater
coverts like this I do not see on local Glaucous-winged Gulls.
4) Primaries slightly darker than body, with noticeable white fringes.
This
pattern not common in Glaucous-winged Gull.
5) Full juvenal plumage, all juvenile GWGU I checked today had started
moulting mantle feathers.
I also considered Iceland (Kumlien's) Gull, and decided it was not that
because:
1) Bill too large, showing too much angle at gonys.
2) Kumlien's, particularly fresh birds show much more extensive white
tipping on coverts and mantle.
3) Kumlien's tend to show primaries that have a dark little teardrop
shape
mark along the tip of the rachis. This pattern is variable in darkness
and
extent, but seems to be relatively consistent, on the other hand it does
not tend to be shown by Thayer's. Thayer's tends to show solid darker
centers to the primaries with noticeable paler fringes, darker
individuals
have darker centers and more restricted fringes than paler individuals.
4) Photo 2 shows substantial grey on underside of primaries. I am not
sure
about this, but I would guess that Iceland shows all dark on upper side
of
primaries, not on underside.
My final conclusion is that this is a Thayer's Gull, but is the extreme
pale end of the continuum. Clearing up any confusion on this point,
juvenile Thayer's Gulls are rather variable in how dark they are. I have
seen some very dark Thayer's which could be confused with Herring Gulls,
and others that are much, much paler but usually these paler birds are
around in February when worn and faded. Seeing a bird this pale looking
right now in early November is surprising to me, I didn't think they got
this pale! By February or early March, this bird will be really, really
pale, whitish even! Yikes.
This bird had darker tips to primaries, and in flight the wing tips were
the darkest bit on the wing but only marginally. Secondary bar was
nearly
absent, and tail was pale with broad white tip. One of the photos shows
the
folded tail as being rather pale and whitish. This bird, shows features
that should not be seen on a Thayer's Gull, but I do think that this is
what it is.
I appreciate any comments on this bird, and on faults in my logic. I
don't
think that any hybrid combination needs to be invoked here to explain
this
bird, and in fact no combo fits that I can conjure up. This doesn't mean
that you can't try and fit some hybrid combination on this bird...go
crazy.
Other crazy birds there today included a juvenile smithsonianus Herring
Gull that was so dark that it looked like a thin-billed Western Gull at
first. Further views showed it to lack broad white tips to the
secondaries,
and had marginally paler inner primaries. Structurally it was a Herring
Gull. Many Glaucous-winged X Western hybrids and at least one
Glaucous-winged x Herring hybrid. This is the land of the hybrids,
particularly when you have a nice flock of 2000 or so gulls to look at,
as
we do in Half Moon Bay.
cheers
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)comcast.net
Montara, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid Buff-breasted Sandpiper
From: matt kenne <mkenne(AT)NETAMUMAIL.COM>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 8:40pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Some comments and rampant speculation on Al's post:
"Birds that do not form pair bonds are more likely to produce hybrids =
than those which do pair off, all things being equal. Hummingbirds for =
example do not form pair bonds, many are lekking species or show other =
interesting breeding systems. There are lots of hummingbird hybrids =
known, often intergeneric hybrids."
I wonder if many of the hummers that are known to hybridize are those =
that have lekking systems, and if they are, do they more commonly cross =
with other species that display in that manner, or species that have =
"normal" mating rituals, or equally with both types? A lek-breeding =
species should be more apt to cross with other lek-breeding types, =
because the displays would act a release or sexual stimulation for those =
already conditioned for that behavior.=20
"Grouse also are known to hybridize and produce oddities here and there, =
they also have poor to non-existent pair bonds."=20
The locally common hybridization between Greater Prairie-Chickens and =
Sharp-tailed Grouse is a good example of lekking species that are =
capable of stimulating each other when they come in contact.=20
"So really from a behavioural perspective Buff-breasted Sandpipers =
should be no more choosy than Pectoral Sandpipers or Ruffs. In fact =
these shorebirds, and others that are similar in their breeding system, =
are the ones you would expect to show a higher rate of hybridization =
than others where there is male parental care, or pair bonds."=20
Are there records of Ruff hybrids in Europe that would suggest a higher =
rate of hybridization?
"I suggested to Bruce that Buff-breasted and Baird's were a good and =
most likely combination. Apart from the look of the mystery bird, the =
two are found in similar grassy tundra. The White-rumped Sandpiper likes =
a bit more sparse looking tundra, with less grass and more pebbles and =
the like."
So, what is it about the "look" that suggests Buff-breasted Sandpiper? =
It has part-yellow legs and suppressed facial pattern that leaves a =
black eye in a buffy face. But it isn't shaped like a Buffy to my eye. =
It doesn't have any dark submarginal lines in the mantle feathers, =
scaps, or wing coverts like a juv Buffy. To follow the above suggestion =
that a lek-mating bird is more likely to produce hybrid offspring, =
couldn't this bird be the female result of a male Ruff lost in North =
America and forced to mate with a White-rumped or Baird's (take your =
pick)? The leg color is too bright for a young Ruff, but isn't the =
mottled look of the leg color change right for a Ruff in its first =
winter? I'm not strongly suggesting this is a Ruff cross, but I haven't =
been able to jump to the conclusion that this bird is half Buffy just =
because it's "cute" and buffy. I haven't seen Buff-breasted in a couple =
of years, so maybe I'm just working off of faulty memory.
Matthew Kenne
Algona, Iowa
mkenne(AT)netamumail.com
=20
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Another larid
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 9:03pm
I was going to save this one for the dead of winter, but what the heck
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/iceland_gull.htm
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?)
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 11:19pm
> Go to the following URL and select "Mike
> Smith"
> from the Member's Gallery dropdown:
>
> http://www.udel.edu/dosbirds/photogallery/main.htm
>
>
While we are at it, we might as well discuss the other odd gull on this
page? It really looks much more like an American Herring Gull to me than
any Yellow-legged Gull.
Kind regards,
Peter Adriaens
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Another larid
From: Detlef Gruber <Daniela.Detlef.Gruber(AT)T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: 11 Nov 2003 3:19am
Why not a leucistic Ring-billed Gull?
Regards
Detlef Gruber
GERMANY
John Idzikowski schrieb:
> I was going to save this one for the dead of winter, but
> what the heck
>
> http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/iceland_gull.htm
>
> John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Another larid
From: Frode Falkenberg <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
Date: 11 Nov 2003 3:37am
I agree with Detlef. The overall slim appearance and jizz makes this bird
look like a second summer leucist Ring-billed to me. Had a slightly more
extreme leucist first winter Common Gull in Norway some weeks ago. Have a
look at some pictures here:
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/nof/galleri/spesial/20031021_02.php
And while we are at it, here is a partial albino Svandinavian Herring Gull
from 8.11.3:
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/nof/galleri/spesial/20031108_03.php
Frode
At 11:18 11.11.2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Why not a leucistic Ring-billed Gull?
>
>Regards
>Detlef Gruber
>GERMANY
>
>John Idzikowski schrieb:
>> I was going to save this one for the dead of winter, but
>> what the heck
>>
>> http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/iceland_gull.htm
>>
>> John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
>>
>
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?)
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 11 Nov 2003 8:46am
I am still trying to figure out how to separate Yellow-legged
Gull (in the broadest sense meaning cachinnans and michahellis)
from Herring and LBBG so please bear with me as I speculate on
the DE bird.
I think the flight shot offers enough to definitely exclude
YLGU based on the apparently solid brown tail. However
some things seem a bit off for smithsonianus herring gull.
Even though the bird is overexposed the comparison
shot does show the bird to be pale headed and bodied
in direct comparison to smith. HEGU. Though in April this
could be wear/bleaching and alone is not as troubling as
it is in combination with other characters.
To my eyes the dark based greater coverts and solid
dark centered scaps are the most atypical features on
this bird. Typical smith HEGU are more muddy looking
here with less contrasting pale edges on the coverts
and scaps.
Over here on the east coast the sticking point for me in
naming this bird is fairly regular presence of birds like the
one here.
http://www.fordham.edu/lewis/birds/easton/easton.html
I have been dropping these birds in a HEGUxLBBG bin
since I have not come up with a more definitive answer
than that. Starting in Nov. I see 1-2 birds like the Easton
gull on maybe 70% of my 4-6 hr visits to the local garbage
heap in Bucks Co. PA. This frequency alone makes me
hesitant to think that they are visitors from across the
pond or even the eastern Pacific coast (heuglini has been
suggested for the Easton bird).
I have never been able to study a suspect youngster
long enough to form any conclusions so I think the bird
Mike Smith photographed is a good learning opportunity.
YLGU can be ruled out on tail pattern. A big LBBG could
be excluded on wing pattern and tail pattern. And the
greater coverts, scaps, and pale head and body seem
off for smith HEGU. This is the process that leads me to
consider more tentative possibilities and weigh the
probability of a vagrant from Europe or Asia vs a hybrid.
Since Bucks Co. seems to hold the largest winter concentration
of LBBG on the East coast it seems that the odd mutt may be
more likely than a trans continental vagrant. But this line of
thought has more to do with probability than field marks so
any comments on my thinking are welcome.
Good gulls
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
>>> Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)DUTCHBIRDING.NL> 11/11/03 01:18AM >>>
> Go to the following URL and select "Mike
> Smith"
> from the Member's Gallery dropdown:
>
> http://www.udel.edu/dosbirds/photogallery/main.htm
>
>
While we are at it, we might as well discuss the other odd gull on this
page? It really looks much more like an American Herring Gull to me than
any Yellow-legged Gull.
Kind regards,
Peter Adriaens
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: clarification
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 11 Nov 2003 10:40am
I re-read my last post and realized one thing may have
been unclear. The dump where the bird photographed by
Mike Smith is in Wilmington DE and is connected to the
Dump in Bucks Co. by the Delaware River. Both Dumps
are located on the shore of the River. There is a lot of
interchange in the birds between the 2 sites so I think
of them as part of the same system. Hence my connecting
the Bucks Co. LBBGs concentration to the Delaware landfill.
Also I think it was unclear but the mystery bird I posted
here http://www.acnatsci.org/wechsler/lightbox/id_finch/id_finch.html
was from Cameroon Africa. The only people to venture a
guess assumed the bird was from North America. Sorry
about that.
I think the bird is Euplectes capensis, Yellow Bishop.
It does bear a strong resemblance to a N. Am.
sparrow though.
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?)
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 11 Nov 2003 1:57pm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Sharp" <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Over here on the east coast the sticking point for me in
naming this bird is fairly regular presence of birds like the
one here.
http://www.fordham.edu/lewis/birds/easton/easton.html
Well Matt, if it were in Europe, it no doubt would go down as
L.a.argentatus, the Herring Gull from North Scandinavia and NW.Russia. It
even has a similar primary moult. Due to this active moult hinting at the
primary projection is of little help.
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?)
From: Rik Winters en Ellen Heersink <gagel(AT)WXS.NL>
Date: 11 Nov 2003 2:13pm
I totally agree with Peter: this bird to me looks like a pale american
herring gull, not (at all) like a yellow-legged gull. Although there is a
superficial resemblance, in the detail I think there are many reasons to
believe this bird is not a yellow-legged but -instead- an american herring:
1. the bird is rather short legged, small headed, and heavy bodied. These
features suggest AHG to me; YLG should (typically) appear long legged, long
winged with a bit more heavy head;
2. the tail is (nearly) completely dark, typical of AHG and very rare (at
best) in YLG;
3. the primaries show an extensive pale window with obvious dark markings at
the tips of the inner primaries. For a YLG this wing is too pale, while it
seems typical for AHG;
4. the bill is slightly tapering, with a weak gonydeal angle and an
extensive pale base. This shape and colouration don't fit YLG as it should
typically show a more parallel bill, with an obvious gonys angle and it
should typically be all dark, again, the bill seems to fit AHG very well;
5. the greater coverts are too finely patterned and too grey brown for YLG.
On this species at least the inner greater coverts should typically show
rather regular and bold barring, these feathers seem to fit AHG very well;
6. the tertials are all dark with rather neatly patterned tips. In YLG this
patterning is simpler: a single pale line along the tip of the feather
(only) and on many birds some palish spots in the tip (usually separated
from the pale line)
European herring gull could be considered, but can be safely excluded on a
combination of (all) these same points, albeit with some more care and
caution.
Despite it's white head, rather pale underparts and maybe somewhat less
marked upper tail coverts, in my opinion this bird fits AHG rather well,
while it does not fit YLG (or any other european species). But as,
apparently, this bird did stand out among AHG, that makes it noteworthy
anyway...
kind regards,
Rik Winters
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On Behalf Of Peter Adriaens
> Sent: dinsdag 11 november 2003 7:19
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
> Gulls?)
>
>
> > Go to the following URL and select "Mike
> > Smith"
> > from the Member's Gallery dropdown:
> >
> > http://www.udel.edu/dosbirds/photogallery/main.htm
> >
> >
>
> While we are at it, we might as well discuss the other odd gull on this
> page? It really looks much more like an American Herring Gull to me than
> any Yellow-legged Gull.
> Kind regards,
> Peter Adriaens
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Another larid
From: Tony Leukering <GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 11 Nov 2003 3:48pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all:
I only glanced at the pix, as I am about to walk out the door, but I wonder
why this bird isn't a leucistic Ring-billed Gull. I'll look at it more
carefully later, but that was my quick-glance impression.
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Mystery furcula
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 11 Nov 2003 10:48pm
Any guesses, presumably a seabird since it was found
on the beach along the central Oregon Coast.
And we've been finding lot of dead Northern Fulmars
recently.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:38:37 -0800
From: Terry Morse <tmorse(AT)teleport.com>
Subject: Furcula
Someone brought me a bone to identify, which I believe to be a furcula.
I'm trying to figure out what species (or group of species, e.g., gulls)
it belongs to. I've posted photos at
http://home.teleport.com/~tmorse/Pages/furcula.html
If you have time, would you have a look and see if you can ID it for me?
Hope you are well.
Thanks,
Terry Morse
tlmorse(AT)onemain.com
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
You've got to accentuate the positive
eliminate the negative
latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr. In-Between.
- Johnny Mercer
http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Reply: Condor 91 436-43
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 12 Nov 2003 8:33am
Hi
Many thanks to those who helped me locate the reference.
Apologies for cross-posting, but I just thought I'd better explain my reason
for wanting to see the article referenced.
It was in relation to this request, put out on Surfbirds recently:
___________________________
"This odd-looking godwit was found over the weekend in California and was
thought to be Bar-tailed Godwit of Siberian race baueri:
http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTY_2003b.html "
____________________________
Subsequent discussion of which has been (in reverse order):
____________________________
Hi
Thanks to Graham for the detailed analysis of the godwit ID, and the useful
picture links.
My email was certainly sparse on that sort of plumage detail...
I just thought it might be worth adding that the size discrepancy in the
photos is mainly due to sexual dimorphism: in godwits (as in many other
large waders), males are considerably smaller than females.
More interestingly still, a smaller subspecies of Marbled Godwit was newly
described in 1989 (Condor 91 436-443) see:
http://elibrary.unm.edu/Condor/
This limited Alaskan-breeding population ... named Limosa fedoa beringiae
... does not appear in the guide-books (Shorebirds, Sibley etc) or on the
maps, and may only differ in size (eg. shorter bill, wing and legs), but a
lone male beringiae amongst a bunch of female fedoa could look tiny.
Beringiae probably normally winters along the coast of Oregon and northern
California (thus to Elkhorn Slough) amongst the more numerous fedoa.
No plumage differences are yet described, but the climate anomaly and
geographical distribution (which may include a long over-ocean flight) may
throw up some plumage and moult differences, perhaps worthy of extra study.
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
_______________________________
From: "Graham Etherington" <etherington(AT)hotmail.com>
Sent: 11 November 2003 18:57
Subject: re: [surfbirdsnews]Input needed on an interesting Godwit
Hi Birders,
I have to agree with Richard on this one. The Elkhorn Slough godwit has many
features of Marbled Godwit and very few of Bar-tailed. Firstly, judging by
the faded wing coverts and patterning on the back, the bird is an adult, not
a juvenile. Juvenile Bar-wit has thick, tawny edges to all its wing coverts,
and the markings to the underparts are restricted to small blotches on the
throat and upper-breast, most unlike this bird.
Here is a good photo of 2 juv Bar-wits:
http://homepage2.nifty.com/stints/others/bartailgdwt-jA.html
Also, the basal colour of juv Bar-wit's bill is salmon-pink, not the deep
orange-red of this bird (which is typical for adult summer Marbled). Also,
by looking at the pattern of markings on the underparts, the bird must be a
Marbled Godwit. In summer plumage, Marbled shows strong, thin, horizontal
barring on the lower breast and belly, and vertical streaking on the upper
breast and throat, as does this bird. Adult Bar-wit has 'Knot-red'
underparts in summer (strongest on male), fading to a creamy-white
background, with faint, but thick, irregular barring (mostly on the side of
the breast and flanks) in winter. The underpart markings on the bird are
most unlike any Bar-wit (both adults and juvs.) and very like that of
Marbled.
Some look-alike photos of the Elkhorn Slough bird can be seen on the photos
of adult summer Marbled Godwits below.
http://friendsofsherwoodisland.org/Photos/Hand/AJH-marbledgodwitsunnyvert.jpg
http://www.ctbirding.org/images/Marbled%20Godwit0602.jpg
http://www.ctbirding.org/images/MarGodJune2002AJH.jpg
http://birdsofsanibel.free.fr/MARBLED%20GODWIT%201.jpg
Hope this all helps.
Regards,
Graham Etherington
_______________________________
From: "Millington/BIS" <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Sent: 10 November 2003 22:09
Subject: Re: [surfbirdsnews]Input needed on an interesting Godwit
Hi
Regarding the godwit,
It looks like a summer-plumaged adult male Marbled Godwit
which has failed to moult, but instead just faded...
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Godwit
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 12 Nov 2003 9:50am
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
All:
Although the Monterey godwit doesn't look at all right for a Bar-tailed
Godwit (not sure what it is but Hudsonian x Marbled might account for a lot
of the features), I don't think the beringeae subspecies is necessarily the
right explanation. I used to live in OR and did a fair amount of birding
around Willapa in SW Washington. This bay is has a regular wintering flock
of Marbleds (presumably beringeae as this is hundreds of miles N. from the
next major wintering population in N. Cal - Marbled Godwits don't winter in
any numbers in OR) and also get regular migratory flocks. Bar-tailed Godwits
often accompany these flocks (I found three in about 15 visits in late
Aug-Oct). I remember that at least one Bar-tailed looked markedly smaller
and shorter legged, so I'm not sure beringeae is so much strikingly smaller
than regular Marbled although the differences with the other bar-taileds was
less obvious.
A few agos, I remember finding an odd looking Marbled Godwit in San Mateo
that had very heavy flank barring and an almost reddish buff tone below. I
can't remember any other details on size/bill color, but ended up concluding
it was just an extreme Marbled. However, I know I seriously considered it
might be a hybrid at the time.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Millington/BIS
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:32 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Reply: [BIRDWG01] Condor 91 436-43
Hi
Many thanks to those who helped me locate the reference.
Apologies for cross-posting, but I just thought I'd better explain my reason
for wanting to see the article referenced.
It was in relation to this request, put out on Surfbirds recently:
___________________________
"This odd-looking godwit was found over the weekend in California and was
thought to be Bar-tailed Godwit of Siberian race baueri:
http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTY_2003b.html "
____________________________
Subsequent discussion of which has been (in reverse order):
____________________________
Hi
Thanks to Graham for the detailed analysis of the godwit ID, and the useful
picture links.
My email was certainly sparse on that sort of plumage detail...
I just thought it might be worth adding that the size discrepancy in the
photos is mainly due to sexual dimorphism: in godwits (as in many other
large waders), males are considerably smaller than females.
More interestingly still, a smaller subspecies of Marbled Godwit was newly
described in 1989 (Condor 91 436-443) see:
http://elibrary.unm.edu/Condor/
This limited Alaskan-breeding population ... named Limosa fedoa beringiae
... does not appear in the guide-books (Shorebirds, Sibley etc) or on the
maps, and may only differ in size (eg. shorter bill, wing and legs), but a
lone male beringiae amongst a bunch of female fedoa could look tiny.
Beringiae probably normally winters along the coast of Oregon and northern
California (thus to Elkhorn Slough) amongst the more numerous fedoa.
No plumage differences are yet described, but the climate anomaly and
geographical distribution (which may include a long over-ocean flight) may
throw up some plumage and moult differences, perhaps worthy of extra study.
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
_______________________________
From: "Graham Etherington" <etherington(AT)hotmail.com>
Sent: 11 November 2003 18:57
Subject: re: [surfbirdsnews]Input needed on an interesting Godwit
Hi Birders,
I have to agree with Richard on this one. The Elkhorn Slough godwit has many
features of Marbled Godwit and very few of Bar-tailed. Firstly, judging by
the faded wing coverts and patterning on the back, the bird is an adult, not
a juvenile. Juvenile Bar-wit has thick, tawny edges to all its wing coverts,
and the markings to the underparts are restricted to small blotches on the
throat and upper-breast, most unlike this bird.
Here is a good photo of 2 juv Bar-wits:
http://homepage2.nifty.com/stints/others/bartailgdwt-jA.html
Also, the basal colour of juv Bar-wit's bill is salmon-pink, not the deep
orange-red of this bird (which is typical for adult summer Marbled). Also,
by looking at the pattern of markings on the underparts, the bird must be a
Marbled Godwit. In summer plumage, Marbled shows strong, thin, horizontal
barring on the lower breast and belly, and vertical streaking on the upper
breast and throat, as does this bird. Adult Bar-wit has 'Knot-red'
underparts in summer (strongest on male), fading to a creamy-white
background, with faint, but thick, irregular barring (mostly on the side of
the breast and flanks) in winter. The underpart markings on the bird are
most unlike any Bar-wit (both adults and juvs.) and very like that of
Marbled.
Some look-alike photos of the Elkhorn Slough bird can be seen on the photos
of adult summer Marbled Godwits below.
http://friendsofsherwoodisland.org/Photos/Hand/AJH-marbledgodwitsunnyvert.jp
g
http://www.ctbirding.org/images/Marbled%20Godwit0602.jpg
http://www.ctbirding.org/images/MarGodJune2002AJH.jpg
http://birdsofsanibel.free.fr/MARBLED%20GODWIT%201.jpg
Hope this all helps.
Regards,
Graham Etherington
_______________________________
From: "Millington/BIS" <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Sent: 10 November 2003 22:09
Subject: Re: [surfbirdsnews]Input needed on an interesting Godwit
Hi
Regarding the godwit,
It looks like a summer-plumaged adult male Marbled Godwit
which has failed to moult, but instead just faded...
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: American Black Duck or a Mallard hybrid?
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Olav_Tveit?= <Bjorn.Olav.Tveit(AT)GYLDENDAL.NO>
Date: 13 Nov 2003 12:50pm
The last few weeks, a possible American Black Duck Anas rubripes have been
sosializing with local Mallards A. platyrhynchos in Surnadal in NW Norway.
If accepted as such, it will be the fourth record for the country.
Images of the bird has revealed, however, details that some of us suspect
may be proof of it having a Mallard ancestor. Notably a pale subterminal
bar anterior to the speculum (at least one of the greater coverts even
having a distinct white spot), and also very little dark on the primary
coverts of the underwing. The bird, witch appears to be an adult female,
does not seem to have any other clear hybrid characters - it generally
resembles a female Black Duck.
Images of the bird can be found here:
http://www.feltornitologene.no/artikler/surnadal2.htm
A better view of the underwing can be seen here:
http://nof.kristiansund.com/cgi-bin/sistenytt/vedlegg/dfotand_surnadal_02112003_undervinge.jpg
An fairly recent and very interesting paper covering the subject has been
published here:
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/2000/diplume/diplume.htm
Even on the basis of this article, the genetic composition of the Surnadal
bird does not seem to be conclusive. I would appreciate comments from any
of you, both on your opinion on the identity of this particular bird, and
also weather or not the conclusions and ID key presented in the paper are
generally accepted amongst North American birders and ringers.
Best regards,
Bjorn O. Tveit
Norway
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?)
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 13 Nov 2003 2:03pm
Hi
Just clearing my inbox, so thought I'd throw in an opinion on this bird.
It has already been established that it is not a Yellow-legged Gull.
It does seem to be a smithsonianus Herring, or at least largely so.
I tend to agree with Matt that it could have some Lesser Black-backed in its
history, but, given the proven variability of smithsonianus, I'm not sure
what concrete features can be used to support this guess.
Lesser Black-backed X Herring hybrids are identified occasionally in Europe,
but nearly always when adult or near-adult: Very little is known about the
appearance of immature birds.
There is plenty of opportunity for LBB X smithsonianus to hybridise (or,
more likely, cross-mate) in North America, and I believe birds such as this
one at:
http://www.fordham.edu/lewis/birds/easton/easton.html
could well be such hybrids.
Also, just a possible tip for Matt and other gullers struggling with the
identification of ''Yellow-legged Gull in the broadest sense, meaning both
michahellis and cachinnans'' ...
It is partly because of the historical 'mushing together' of characters that
it is taking so long for these two to be split (by the BOU at least). These
two forms are really so distinct (and different-looking) from each other
that they should be approached seperately, and ideally not as a 'tandem
pair'. Not alway easy, of course, but in a vagrant (American) sense, it
really could simplify the struggle.
...And all this advice from someone who still struggles telling juvenile LBB
and Herring apart on his doorstep...!
:-)
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
_________________________________________________
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> > [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On Behalf Of Peter Adriaens
> > Sent: dinsdag 11 november 2003 7:19
> > To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
> > Gulls?)
> >
> > > Go to the following URL and select "Mike
> > > Smith"
> > > from the Member's Gallery dropdown:
> > >
> > > http://www.udel.edu/dosbirds/photogallery/main.htm
> >
> > While we are at it, we might as well discuss the other odd gull on this
> > page? It really looks much more like an American Herring Gull to me than
> > any Yellow-legged Gull.
> > Kind regards,
> > Peter Adriaens
> >
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 13 Nov 2003 2:03pm
Hi
Following my admittedly rather mischievous input on the
Thayer's/Kumlien's/Iceland Gull scenario,
I must thank all the people who replied on Frontiers and contacted me
direct.
It seems we can rest more easily in the assumption that Thayer's Gull is a
good species, distinct from Iceland/Kumlien's (not that I truly doubt that
anyway) and that Kumlien's is most closely related to Glaucous-winged Gull,
if I understand Pierre-Andre's email correctly
However, given the likelihood that Thayer's Gull does indeed occasionally
hybridise (as opposed to clinally intergrade) with Iceland/Kumlien's Gull
and/or Glaucous-winged (and/or American Herring, and/or Vega, and /or
Slaty-backed Gull), there may be a few problem birds about
Identifying 'normal' juvenile Thayer's Gull, such as Alvaro's bird:
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/thayers1.jpg
seems relatively problem-free.
Odd birds such as Alvaro's 'Palest of Thayer's Gulls?' at:
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/PALETHAYER.html
do seem to represent a pale extreme of the same basic theme (despite the
overall milkyness and the questionable tail pattern)
However, in Europe, any Herring Gulls (the closest thing we have here to
Thayer's) showing dark arrowheads on pale primaries are often suspected of
showing some Glaucous Gull influence (recent or historical). Might something
similar be said for birds such as this of Phil's:
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/thayers2001.jpg
?
Might the odd primary-tip pattern and 'open-patterned' scapulars represent
the recent or historical input of Iceland/Kumlien's Gull? I am not in a
position to say if this is the case, of course..
However, I'm sure we can easily eliminate David's bird at:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sussex.birder/Thayers.htm
The wingtip and tail pattern, innerwing structure and scapular
pattern/moult, head profile etc all lead well away from it being a Thayer's.
It is presumably a Western X Glaucous-winged hybrid.
As the species is still a very rare vagrant to Europe, I for one am still
hungry for more Thayer's Gull images (normal and/or odd birds, all ages) and
I look forward to more being posted over the winter. If Alvaro, Phil or any
other west coast birder has (now or in the future) a collection of for
perusal, I'd be very grateful for the links anytime ...
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Yellow-legged Gull? (WAS: Palest of Thayer's
Gulls?)
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 13 Nov 2003 3:59pm
Richard Millington wrote:>
> It has already been established that it is not a Yellow-legged Gull.
> It does seem to be a smithsonianus Herring, or at least largely so.
> I tend to agree with Matt that it could have some Lesser Black-backed in
its
> history, but, given the proven variability of smithsonianus, I'm not sure
> what concrete features can be used to support this guess.<
> Lesser Black-backed X Herring hybrids are identified occasionally in
Europe,
> but nearly always when adult or near-adult: Very little is known about the
> appearance of immature birds.<
There must still be plenty around at the Skokholm site in Wales where Mike
Harris did his cross-fostering experiments! You may be surprised what they
look like. We have one, a female, which looks a perfect Yellow-legged Gull,
however, much to our astonishment, her genes tell us her mother was a
Herring Gull! She has produced many chicks with her male Lesser Black-back
over the years!
> It is partly because of the historical 'mushing together' of characters
that
> it is taking so long for these two to be split (by the BOU at least).
These
> two forms are really so distinct (and different-looking) from each other
> that they should be approached seperately, and ideally not as a 'tandem
> pair'. Not alway easy, of course, but in a vagrant (American) sense, it
> really could simplify the struggle.<
You are optimistic!
> ...And all this advice from someone who still struggles telling juvenile
LBB
> and Herring apart on his doorstep...!<
No wonder you see some Lesser Black-back in Matt's bird!
Cheerio, Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 14 Nov 2003 1:52pm
All,
Richard requested more photos of regular Thayer's. I've got a good
collection at
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/thay_d.htm. For
pale Thayer's (what I call Thayer's x Iceland = "Kumlien's" Gull), see
photos at http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/kuml_d.htm
My take is that Alvaro's pale Thayer's at
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/PALETHAYER.html is a bit beyond the
pale for regular Thayer's. The open-patterned tertials and especially
the patterning across the outer tail suggest Iceland heritage.
Interestingly, the same tail pattern (extensive white on the out half of
the tail) appears in some Herring x Glaucous Gulls (see
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/nels1.htm). Thus,
I'd call Alvaro's gull a "Kumlien's", meaning it is part of the Thayer's
x glaucoides Iceland hybrid swarm-- although admittedly it is dark for a
classic Kumlien's and thus closer to Thayer's. (I realize this
taxonomic interpretation effectively removes Iceland gull from most ABA
listers, unless they've notched a nominate glaucoides. But, hey, here
on the west coast we can't count "Olympic" Gull!) :)
good birding,
Steve Hampton, Ph.D.
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 14 Nov 2003 1:59pm
At 04:23 PM 11/10/2003 +0100, Pierre-André CROCHET wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>Kevin is right to be cautious about the results on thayeri in our previous
>paper. I had not realized at the time when I requested this specimen from
>LSUMZ that this specimen was out of range, and of contentious ID.
>
>We now have sequenced 5 more specimens of thayeri from California and the
>Pacific coast. A short note should appear soon in the Auk to complete our
>previous paper. None of these specimens group with our previous "thayeri".
>None groups with glaucoides or kumlieni either... but with glaucescens.
>...
So, my question is, what was that LSUMZ bird? Knowing the people at LSU,
and knowing that they're pretty sharp about bird ID, I am willing to bet
that any of us might have called this bird a Thayer's, when it appears to
be something else. It might be worth pursuing some images to see what
we're up against.
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 14 Nov 2003 2:41pm
>>
So, my question is, what was that LSUMZ bird? Knowing the people at LSU, and
knowing that they're pretty sharp about bird ID, I am willing to
bet that any of us might have called this bird a Thayer's, when it appears
to be something else. It might be worth pursuing some images to see
what we're up against.>>
We have photos of a bird collected in New Orleans
Louisiana in Feb. 1982 that is in VIREO as a Thayer's.
I have no way of knowing if this is the same bird as
was sampled in the paper by Crochet et al but I can't
imagine there are many specimens of such a bird from
Louisiana.
Can anyone say how many specimens (or even records)
of Thayer's there are from LA. This could be the one and
only.
I could post the pics but don't want to muddy the already
murky water with this bird if it is not the one sampled by Crochet
et al. Won't be able to do it til Mon anyway.
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 14 Nov 2003 3:56pm
At 12:52 PM 11/14/2003 -0800, Steve Hampton wrote:
>My take is that Alvaro's pale Thayer's at
>http://chucao.home.comcast.net/PALETHAYER.html is a bit beyond the
>pale for regular Thayer's. The open-patterned tertials and especially
>the patterning across the outer tail suggest Iceland heritage.
>Interestingly, the same tail pattern (extensive white on the out half of
>the tail) appears in some Herring x Glaucous Gulls (see
>http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/nels1.htm). Thus,
>I'd call Alvaro's gull a "Kumlien's", meaning it is part of the Thayer's
>x glaucoides Iceland hybrid swarm-- although admittedly it is dark for a
>classic Kumlien's and thus closer to Thayer's.
Steve
I think it is interesting that you are saying that this bird is beyond
what can be expected in Thayer's, yet Bruce McTavish is saying that this is
beyond what can be expected in Kumlien's. I am not sure how to interpret
this, other than to solidify that there are no answers. I think the
opposite of what you do I guess, mainly that juvenile Thayer's are more
variable than we give them credit for and that this bird can be considered
a pale Thayer's. Whether this means it may can't have some Iceland genes in
it somewhere I don't know, and we never will. There is a point that is
worth thinking about with these Kumlien's candidates we get in California.
The point is that ignoring plumage, structurally they do not look like what
typical Kumlien's look like, these birds are larger, with proportionately
larger bills, bulkier bodies, slightly shorter wings etc. Structurally our
Kumlien's-like birds are indistinguishable from Thayer's Gulls. Why are
these pale juvenile birds never classic Icelands in terms of structure? I
think it is because they are not Kumlien's gulls, but represent variation
intrinsic to Thayer's Gull - with the caveat that infiltration of Iceland
genes must happen and where you draw the line between taxa is complicated
to say the least. Some other pale Kumlien's candidates we see here are
undoubtedly smaller Glaucous-winged x Herring hybrids, and that is a whole
other subject that gives me a headache to think about. Pass the Ibuprofen
please. Yet if one defines Thayer's Gulls as the member of this mess that
winters here in California, there is enough variation in this population
that seeing a bird this pale doesn't bother me that much. There are plenty
of pale and dark Thayer's out there. Interestingly enough the adults are
not nearly as variable to my eye as are the juveniles. I guess the same can
be said of many other variable gulls here, such as _smithsonianus_ Herring
Gull, and California Gull, the younger age groups are much more variable
than the adults. Same applies to terns, have a look at a big mess of
juvenile terns (choose a random species) and you will see that the
juveniles show a superb amount of variation, while adults do not. Perhaps
adults in gulls and terns just have fewer pattern features on the plumage
than juveniles and therefore it is more difficult to appreciate the
variation shown? Perhaps they are just more variable? I don't know. I
certainly could be dead wrong on this bird, but right now calling birds
like these pale Thayer's is the hypothesis that makes most sense to me. The
really painful part is that this is one of those hypotheses which is
difficult and perhaps impossible to test right now, and from the
perspective of trying to figure this mess out in a concrete manner it
becomes a useless hypothesis. Yet it may have explanatory value of some kind?
I appreciate all who have contributed to this thread, it has been real
interesting, particularly all the information from the folks doing the
genetic work that will surely push us forward in understanding how all of
these gulls are related to each other. Who knows, maybe in 10 years will
have it all figured out and our interest in gulls will wane - Not!
Cheers
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
Biologist
San Francisco Bay Bird Observatory
P.O. Box 247
Alviso, CA 95002
(408)-946-6548
http://www.sfbbo.org/
chucao(AT)comcast.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 14 Nov 2003 4:34pm
Alvaro et al.,
Yes, maybe some day it will all be figured out. One thing: note that
when Bruce says Kumlien's, he refers to the classic Kumlien's, in which
case your bird is certainly beyond that range. However, when I say
"Kumlien's", it's in quotes, and thus refers to anything between pure
Thayer's and pure nominate Iceland-- a much more broad definition. Jon
King (who really really knows gulls) has convinced me to use this
terminology, based on the latest research (and I'm forgetting the
reference).
The question with your bird is whether or not it is pure Thayer's, or
steps over the line into "Kumlien's" (however defined). The tertials
don't bother me so much-- but that patterning in the tail seems to me
unique to Iceland and Glaucous thus outside of pure Thayer's. But who
knows for sure? We can define plumage criteria but it won't necessarily
be right.
As for "pale Thayer's" with a petite structure like Iceland, I've seen
some around here (Davis, Ca). See Figures 1, 5, and 6 at
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/kuml2.htm for
examples of Iceland-structured birds that obviously have Thayer's
influence.
Steve Hampton, Ph.D.
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
>>> Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)comcast.net> 11/14/2003 2:48:13 PM >>>
At 12:52 PM 11/14/2003 -0800, Steve Hampton wrote:
>My take is that Alvaro's pale Thayer's at
>http://chucao.home.comcast.net/PALETHAYER.html is a bit beyond the
>pale for regular Thayer's. The open-patterned tertials and
especially
>the patterning across the outer tail suggest Iceland heritage.
>Interestingly, the same tail pattern (extensive white on the out half
of
>the tail) appears in some Herring x Glaucous Gulls (see
>http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/nels1.htm). Thus,
>I'd call Alvaro's gull a "Kumlien's", meaning it is part of the
Thayer's
>x glaucoides Iceland hybrid swarm-- although admittedly it is dark for
a
>classic Kumlien's and thus closer to Thayer's.
Steve
I think it is interesting that you are saying that this bird is
beyond
what can be expected in Thayer's, yet Bruce McTavish is saying that
this is
beyond what can be expected in Kumlien's. I am not sure how to
interpret
this, other than to solidify that there are no answers. I think the
opposite of what you do I guess, mainly that juvenile Thayer's are more
variable than we give them credit for and that this bird can be
considered
a pale Thayer's. Whether this means it may can't have some Iceland
genes in
it somewhere I don't know, and we never will. There is a point that is
worth thinking about with these Kumlien's candidates we get in
California.
The point is that ignoring plumage, structurally they do not look like
what
typical Kumlien's look like, these birds are larger, with
proportionately
larger bills, bulkier bodies, slightly shorter wings etc. Structurally
our
Kumlien's-like birds are indistinguishable from Thayer's Gulls. Why are
these pale juvenile birds never classic Icelands in terms of structure?
I
think it is because they are not Kumlien's gulls, but represent
variation
intrinsic to Thayer's Gull - with the caveat that infiltration of
Iceland
genes must happen and where you draw the line between taxa is
complicated
to say the least. Some other pale Kumlien's candidates we see here are
undoubtedly smaller Glaucous-winged x Herring hybrids, and that is a
whole
other subject that gives me a headache to think about. Pass the
Ibuprofen
please. Yet if one defines Thayer's Gulls as the member of this mess
that
winters here in California, there is enough variation in this
population
that seeing a bird this pale doesn't bother me that much. There are
plenty
of pale and dark Thayer's out there. Interestingly enough the adults
are
not nearly as variable to my eye as are the juveniles. I guess the same
can
be said of many other variable gulls here, such as _smithsonianus_
Herring
Gull, and California Gull, the younger age groups are much more
variable
than the adults. Same applies to terns, have a look at a big mess of
juvenile terns (choose a random species) and you will see that the
juveniles show a superb amount of variation, while adults do not.
Perhaps
adults in gulls and terns just have fewer pattern features on the
plumage
than juveniles and therefore it is more difficult to appreciate the
variation shown? Perhaps they are just more variable? I don't know. I
certainly could be dead wrong on this bird, but right now calling birds
like these pale Thayer's is the hypothesis that makes most sense to me.
The
really painful part is that this is one of those hypotheses which is
difficult and perhaps impossible to test right now, and from the
perspective of trying to figure this mess out in a concrete manner it
becomes a useless hypothesis. Yet it may have explanatory value of some
kind?
I appreciate all who have contributed to this thread, it has been real
interesting, particularly all the information from the folks doing the
genetic work that will surely push us forward in understanding how all
of
these gulls are related to each other. Who knows, maybe in 10 years
will
have it all figured out and our interest in gulls will wane - Not!
Cheers
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
Biologist
San Francisco Bay Bird Observatory
P.O. Box 247
Alviso, CA 95002
(408)-946-6548
http://www.sfbbo.org/
chucao(AT)comcast.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: Steven Mlodinow <SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 14 Nov 2003 7:54pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings All
Jeff Gilligan emailed me- he didn't think that Alvaro's Palest of Thayer's
Gulls was all that pale. Neither did Phil Pickering. Neither do I.
Such birds as Alvaro's are regular here in the Pac NW, where Iceland Gulls
are still a big time rarity. And per previous posts, adult Thayer's Gulls with
wingtips that are not jet black are 5% or so of the population in Washington.
Perhaps these are hybrids, or birds with some Kumlein's genes anyway. I think
it more likely that they are the pale extreme of Thayer's. Just a hunch, as is
almost all speculation on such away from breeding grounds.
Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Trinidad Gulls- opinions wanted (especially
European).
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 14 Nov 2003 10:35pm
Hi Folks
Since the Gullchat is on, I will re-send this request for information.
My original note in July was a bit too cryptic and perhaps scared off
folks, I received little input. These birds were photographed in a flock of
Laughing Gulls, _cinarescens_ Black Skimmers and mixed terns and yes
Scarlet Ibis. Both of these birds were photographed at Waterloo, Trinidad,
West Indies March 31, 2003.
First bird
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/LBBG.jpg
With Laughing Gull, Cayenne Tern, and _cinarescens_ Black Skimmer. This
looks like a good Lesser Black-backed Gull to me, and I am not all puzzled
by it. Lesser Black-backed Gull is a regular albeit rare visitor to
Trinidad. If some of you disagree on this bird being a Lesser Black-backed,
do let me know.
The second bird in this flock is the one that is interesting. This bird I
think is a first cycle Kelp Gull, based on the bulky structure, thick and
blob-ended bill, dark and largely unpatterned greater coverts (this bird is
in its first plumage cycle going into its second, photo is not sharp enough
to be sure of the age of those coverts), and ongoing primary moult in late
March (outer two-3 pp old, some missing, and inner two new). Kelp Gull has
occurred in Trinidad before, an adult was documented between July and
October, 2000. Details are at:
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttkelpgull Note that the immature
bird in the back of photo C and left side of photo D looks also like a Kelp
Gull from my perspective (also see the opinions on
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttmysterygulls.html , that gull has
been discussed in this forum before). This is a link to a Kelp Gull found
in Barbados Dec. 2001 http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/bakelpgull, I
have not been keeping up with their occurrence in the Caribbean all that
closely but I think these are the only records thus far.
Now for my bird, here are the photos.
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/Tringull1.jpg
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/Tringull2.jpg
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/Tringull3.jpg
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/Tringull4.jpg
For comparison here is a somewhat similar Kelp Gull from Chile.
http://chucao.home.comcast.net/KEGU7.jpg This one from Dec.5, 1996,
Reñaca, Chile. Much farther south and in a slightly more advanced plumage
stage looking at the upperparts, but less advanced on the primary moult.
This is also a first cycle bird, likely in the earliest stage of primary
moult at this time of year. They typically begin in November at this age.
In my previous e-mail I had not said what I thought the bird was, trying to
focus comments on European taxa (Lesser Black-backed, heuglini etc etc)
which I am not as familiar with. I just want to be sure that I am not
overlooking some taxon I have little or no experience with. I would
appreciate if European birders could let me know if this bird's structure
and plumage fits anything on your side of the pond. It certainly fits
structure and plumage, and moult timing, of Kelp Gull.
thanks
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)comcast.net
Montara, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: More pale Thayer's types
From: David Vander Pluym <SCRE(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 15 Nov 2003 2:13pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
I have to agree with others that while Al Jaramillo's bird is pale it is not
outside the range of Thayer's Gulls. It seems (at least in mid winter) that I
see more "pale" Thayer's than "classic" Thayer's. To continue this thread I
have posted some video captrues (the captures aren't that great but you get
the idea of structure) of small Thayer's or pale birds that may be or have some
Kumlien's influence in them. The first two pictures are of a bird I
photographed at Moss Landing Monterey County Cali. I never saw the bird in
flight as
it managed to fly off when I looked down to write some notes. It match
Kumlien's in plumage (in life the primaries were the same color as the body or
lighter) but notice the large size. The next bird was in Santa Cruz Ca, a
small
bird and structurally similare to Kumliens but note the dark primaries. Most
of
the tertials were dark centered but some lacked any dark centering and had
only a few dark marks on an otherwise light feather. The last adult bird was
also from Santa Cruz, small and had a bright yellow eye. I at first thought
the
bird was a weird small Herring Gull but look at the wing pattern. Anyway just
wanted to post some more photos of pale or small looking Thayer's types.
Heres the link <A
HREF="http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/psyfrmcali/lst?.dir=/gulls&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/">http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/psyfrmcali/lst?.dir=/gulls&.src=ph&
.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/</A>
Good Gulling all
David Vander Pluym
Santa Cruz Ca
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
|
|
|
|
BIRDxxxx
BIRDCHAT
ID-FRONTIERS
US:NewEngland