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ID-FRONTIERS for November 16-22, 2003
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Re: Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland | Dick Newell | Sun, 16 Nov 2003 | 6:28am |
| Re: Trinidad Gulls- opinions wanted (especially
European) | Floyd Hayes | Sun, 16 Nov 2003 | 1:32pm |
| Re: Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland | Tony Leukering | Sun, 16 Nov 2003 | 6:58pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? | David Muth | Sun, 16 Nov 2003 | 7:42pm |
| Re: More pale Thayer's types | Phillip Pickering | Sun, 16 Nov 2003 | 11:21pm |
| Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? (fwd) | Ian Paulsen | Mon, 17 Nov 2003 | 11:05am |
| Bowerman Basin via Greenland | Ian Paulsen | Mon, 17 Nov 2003 | 3:16pm |
| Re: Bowerman Basin via Greenland | Jeff Gilligan | Mon, 17 Nov 2003 | 6:37pm |
| Re: Bowerman Basin via Greenland | Mike Patterson | Mon, 17 Nov 2003 | 7:29pm |
| Re: races of GW-f Goose; was "Bowerman Basin via
Greenland" | Martin Reid | Tue, 18 Nov 2003 | 8:04am |
| Western Kingbird or something else? | Angus Wilson | Tue, 18 Nov 2003 | 6:28pm |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | Bruce H Anderson | Tue, 18 Nov 2003 | 7:14pm |
| Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | Will Russell | Tue, 18 Nov 2003 | 7:57pm |
| Listowner Message - Mailbox over Quota Error
Messages | Will Russell | Tue, 18 Nov 2003 | 7:58pm |
| Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | Mike Patterson | Tue, 18 Nov 2003 | 11:04pm |
| Pictures of Kumlien's Gulls | Peter Adriaens | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 2:35am |
| Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | John Idzikowski | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 8:34am |
| Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | Magill Weber | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 9:10am |
| Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | Jeff Davis | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 9:15am |
| Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | Olle Pers | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 9:33am |
| Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | Phil Jeffrey | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 9:37am |
| Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | Lethaby, Nick | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 10:45am |
| Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | Lethaby, Nick | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 11:00am |
| Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | William Hull | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 12:40pm |
| Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK | Angus Wilson | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 12:57pm |
| Trumpeter Swan paper | Tony Leukering | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 3:51pm |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | Angus Wilson | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 10:24pm |
| Bowerman "Greenland" White-front photos | Mike Patterson | Wed, 19 Nov 2003 | 11:06pm |
| Bowerman "Greenland" White-front photos | Eddie Chapman | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 12:18am |
| Re: hybrid flycatcher reference | =?iso-8859-1?q?Alex= | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 2:42am |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | David Sibley | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 9:47am |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | Gary Potter | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 10:46am |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | Bruce H Anderson | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 11:13am |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | William Hull | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 11:24am |
| hybrid kingbird x scissor-tailed | Alvaro Jaramillo | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 12:23pm |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | Chris Benesh | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 1:08pm |
| The second WEKI X STFL reference | Chris Benesh | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 1:28pm |
| Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada | Blake Maybank | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 2:10pm |
| Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada | Ned Brinkley | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 2:29pm |
| Re: Bowerman "Greenland" White-front photos | Bruce Deuel | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 2:30pm |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | Kevin McGowan | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 2:42pm |
| Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada | John Idzikowski | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 2:50pm |
| white-fronted goose at Bowerman Basin, WA | Ian Paulsen | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 3:03pm |
| Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada | Ned Brinkley | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 3:26pm |
| Re: white-fronted goose at Bowerman Basin, WA | Michel Veldt | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 3:26pm |
| Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada | Lethaby, Nick | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 3:43pm |
| mystery gull from new brunswick | Jim Barton | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 3:59pm |
| Re: Lesser Black-backed Gull - Early Fall
Migration | Alan Wormington | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 4:41pm |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | Andy Guthrie | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 8:19pm |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | Chris Benesh | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 9:54pm |
| Re: Western Kingbird or something else? | Gary Potter | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 9:56pm |
| Re: More Fuel for the Fire? | Alan Wormington | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 10:45pm |
| Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or
something else? | Doug Faulkner | Thu, 20 Nov 2003 | 11:19pm |
| Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada | Harry Hussey | Fri, 21 Nov 2003 | 6:08am |
| Re: mystery gull from new brunswick | Nick Rossiter | Fri, 21 Nov 2003 | 6:54am |
| Fw: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick,
Canada | Norman D.van Swelm | Fri, 21 Nov 2003 | 7:38am |
| Fw: white-fronted goose at Bowerman
Basin, WA | Michel Veldt | Fri, 21 Nov 2003 | 11:13am |
| Odd Sea duck | Bill Elrick | Fri, 21 Nov 2003 | 11:36am |
| NY Kingbird | Shaibal Mitra | Fri, 21 Nov 2003 | 12:22pm |
| Re: NY Kingbird | Tony Leukering | Fri, 21 Nov 2003 | 2:47pm |
| Re: NY Kingbird | Kevin McGowan | Fri, 21 Nov 2003 | 2:55pm |
| NY kingbird and Gambell mystery photo | Paul Lehman | Fri, 21 Nov 2003 | 3:31pm |
| NY Kingbird Age and Plumage | Shaibal Mitra | Fri, 21 Nov 2003 | 5:16pm |
| | Paul Larkin | Sat, 22 Nov 2003 | 12:28pm |
| Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada | Bruce Mactavish | Sat, 22 Nov 2003 | 8:11pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)MACUNLIMITED.NET>
Date: 16 Nov 2003 6:28am
It is quite normal for Kamchatka Gull to have a pale iris. Would this also
imply that perhaps a pale iris in heinei would be less of a rarity than it
is in canus, and so give an explanation to this bird. It reminds me of "the
first "Ring-billed Gull" in Japan:
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020302/RBG1.html
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020120/R_billed2.html
Like the Polish gull, it looks dark, has a broad tertial crescent as well as
a pale iris and an even better ringed bill.
Some while ago, I questioned this bird, but was reassured by a number of
American folk that it was a perfectly OK Ring-billed Gull. I've still got a
problem with it.
Dick Newell, Cambridge, UK
On 9/11/03 10:47 pm, "Marcin Faber" <marfaber(AT)POCZTA.ONET.PL> wrote:
> Dear all,
> On 4th November 2003 at Jeziorsko reservoir (central Poland), I photographed
> this adult gull standing in a flock of Common, Caspian and Black-headed
> Gulls.
> I would like to show my photos of this bird, please look at:
> http://www.czaplon.most.org.pl/gull.htm
> The bird was similar to Common Gull but was: slighty larger with longer and
> yellow legs, yellow iris, yellow and thick bill with black band, paler
> mantle. However jizz
> resembling rather Common Gull, white terial crescent was thick and thin
> black bill band.
> Till now in Poland we have only 5 accepted records of Ring-billed Gull so I
> will be very grateful for your opinion and help with the identification.
>
> Any comments are welcome.
> Thanks in advance.
> All the best.
> Marcin Faber
> Poland
> marfaber(AT)poczta.onet.pl
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Trinidad Gulls- opinions wanted (especially
European)
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 16 Nov 2003 1:32pm
Alvaro's gull looks Kelp-like to me but, like Alvaro,
I lack experience with similar European taxa and,
unlike Alvaro, lack experience with immature Kelp.
While on the subject, another odd gull in Trinidad was
thought by a few (one of whom wrote a very detailed
analysis) to be a Yellow-legged Gull:
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttmysterygull
When I posted a query to ID Frontiers long ago, only
one individual responded, a European who thought it
was a Lesser Black-backed Gull (I never got around to
adding his comments and don't have time at the
moment). I suspect the photos lack sufficient detail
to clinch the bird's identity (especially as a
potential "first" for South America), but if anybody
else would like to comment I'd be grateful.
-Floyd
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Gull resembling Ring-billed G from Poland
From: Tony Leukering <GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 16 Nov 2003 6:58pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all:
Though I highly respect Dick Newell's opinion on gulls, I am going to have to
agree with the original ID of the Japanese Ring-billed Gull. The tertial
crescent, though largish, is not outside the range of variation of that taxon.
Additionally, the skimpy scapular crescent and the pale mantle color (virtually
identical to that of the Black-headed Gull in at least one of the pictures)
suggest that the beast is not a member of the Common Gull group, no matter how
it's sliced. Additionally, the size of the P9-10 mirrors and the bill pattern
mitigate against Common Gull.
Sincerely,
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
From: David Muth <dmuth(AT)BELLSOUTH.NET>
Date: 16 Nov 2003 7:42pm
Matt/ID-Frontiers:
I haven't seen a response to your query, below, from the LSUMNS (I'm not
sure if anyone from the staff is subscribed). I have had some correspondence
with Steve Cardiff about this discussion thread, so I can tell you that the
Feb. 1982 specimen was not the source of the tissue sampled by Crochet et
al. Two specimens of putative first basic Thayer's were taken from among 3-4
different individuals found in New Orleans dumps in February-March of 1982.
Both were accepted by the Louisiana Rare Bird Committee (LBRC), and are the
basis of the species' inclusion on the state list. However, this was shortly
before LSU began routinely preserving frozen tissue samples from specimens.
The specimen (LSUMZ B-21816) from which the Crochet DNA sample was taken was
collected in Cameron, La. in April 1994. There is one other specimen marked
"thayeri" also from the spring of 1994. At least three other putative
specimens remain in limbo, unlabelled. It is my understanding that the
museum and the LBRC had already decided before these discussions began that
the status of all Louisiana (and perhaps eastern) thayeri was up in the air,
and that labelling should wait until more DNA results had been published, to
form a basis of comparison. Even the two 1982 specimens could yield enough
DNA for final resolution, and that is the hope. Unlike the identity of most
of the individual gulls agonized over in this medium, the presence of the
specimens means that establishing the identity of these birds is ultimately
possible.
I can't tell you, offhand, how many records of Thayer's there are for
Louisiana. After the flurry of records in early 1982, we naively believed
that it was just a matter of combing through a few thousand gulls to find
them. There were a few subsequent dump birds in the early 1980s, but then
records dried up. The flurry in the Spring of 1994, and a few other photos
and reports, but never again anything like 1982. I'm not sure how many the
LBRC has accepted all told, but a number of reports have been rejected.
After a considerable Thayer's drought, we had a flurry of records this last
fall and spring, involving at least three individuals, two in first basic
and one adult. These records are on hold. If I had to guess, I'd say the
LBRC has accepted 5-10, and there have been 10-15 reports for Louisiana, all
told.
It might be interesting for you to post the photos of the first specimen, to
hear what people think. This is one case where we may eventually find out
what it really is, though I suspect that this will remain unresolved until
tissue is taken from a wide sample of birds on the breeding grounds, and
the results published.
David Muth
New orleans
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On Behalf Of Matt Sharp
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 3:40 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Palest of Thayer's Gulls?
>>
So, my question is, what was that LSUMZ bird? Knowing the people at LSU,
and knowing that they're pretty sharp about bird ID, I am willing to
bet that any of us might have called this bird a Thayer's, when it appears
to be something else. It might be worth pursuing some images to see
what we're up against.>>
We have photos of a bird collected in New Orleans
Louisiana in Feb. 1982 that is in VIREO as a Thayer's.
I have no way of knowing if this is the same bird as
was sampled in the paper by Crochet et al but I can't
imagine there are many specimens of such a bird from
Louisiana.
Can anyone say how many specimens (or even records)
of Thayer's there are from LA. This could be the one and
only.
I could post the pics but don't want to muddy the already
murky water with this bird if it is not the one sampled by Crochet
et al. Won't be able to do it til Mon anyway.
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: More pale Thayer's types
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 16 Nov 2003 11:21pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Steve, my impression is that at least to some extent many or
most Thayer's have a marbled/checkered tail similar to Iceland.
In the majority of Thayer's I think it is just obscured by a greater
amount of dark, solidifying pigment, so that the pattern is
largely hidden. A variable amount of tail patterning often seems to =20
be apparent in Thayer's with less dark pigment (pale-end or faded).
Alvaro, at a glance adult Thayer's might not seem to show much
variability, but I see a great deal of variation in the amount and
fine aspects of the pattern of black/white on the primary tips.
Perhaps this is correlated in some way to their appearance as
juveniles.
David, as far as I can tell in your photos the first two birds you
reference are within the range of appearance for Thayer's. The
under-primary pattern on the flight shot of the third (adult) bird
looks kinda strange, almost like the primaries are misstacked,
so not sure what's going on. Perhaps a Thayer's, but I'm not
sure the photos rule out a small Herring x G-w.
Cheers,
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, OR
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Palest of Thayer's Gulls? (fwd)
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 17 Nov 2003 11:05am
HI ALL:
Here are the details on the Louisiana "Thayer's" Gull.
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:02:50 -0600
From: Steven W. Cardiff <scardif(AT)lsu.edu>
To: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net>, Van Remsen <najames(AT)lsu.edu>
Cc: Donna Dittmann <ddittma(AT)lsu.edu>
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Palest of Thayer's Gulls? (fwd)
Dear Ian-
Below are a couple of cut-and-pastes of "internal" LA emails that
were in response to mention of the "Crochet-LA Thayer's Gull." Feel free to
relay to IDF if you would like.
Steve Cardiff
****************************************************************************
***************
I'll give everyone a "specimen status" later. Meanwhile, to further Donna's
point, it would be helpful to know age/plumage/locality/museum for these new
CA specimens (e. g., are they classic adult Thayer's, or a variety of
immature things, or what?)
A couple of other quick points:
1) The two original LA specimens of Thayer's (both first winter plumage)
WERE NOT TISSUED. They were collected in early 1982, literally just a few
months before taking tissue samples became standard procedure at LSUMNS.
However, DNA can still be isolated from feathers or dried foot tissue of
those two birds.
2) RE the controversy over the Crochet/LA Thayer's, it's partly our (LSU's)
fault, as we allowed that specimen to go into the database as an outright
Thayer's, when it probably should have gone in as "thayeri?" or just "Larus
sp." Still, Crochet didn't ask any questions, and we had no way of knowing
that he would incorporate that specimen as THE Thayer's in his phylogeny.
We had sent him other "mystery" gull tissues just to see what he came up
with (e.g., Kelp, Kelp X Herring hybrids, and Mac Myers' "Western Gull"),
and
this was probably our thinking with the "thayer's" as well.
************************************************************************
All-
Just in case you're interested RE LA "Thayer's" specimens.....
LSUMZ 103493- Orleans Parish, 28 Feb 1982, unsexed but probably male by
size; this is the first specimen, a "classic" Basic I.
LSUMZ 104002- " " 7 Mar 1982, female; this is the
2nd specimen, smaller and darker Basic I.
LSUMZ 160608- Cameron Par., 27 Apr 1994, female; SWC identified as
"thayeri;" worn Basic I > Alternate I, small. TISSUE 21855.
LSUMZ 160609- " " , 16 Apr 1994, male; SWC ID'd as
"thayeri?;" worn Basic I > Alternate I. TISSUE 21816.
DLD 7549- " " , 19 May 2002, female; SWC/DLD
believe this bird to be Alternate II Thayer's, but it seems larger that the
other females above. TISSUE 35891.
Also of interest (among several other interesting hybridy things)
LSUMZ 160610- Cameron Par., 27 Apr 1994, female in Basic I; possible
"argentatus X hyperboreus/glaucoides." TISSUES 21867.
There's also the Myers, Muth, et al. specimen from last fall at
Cameron that hasn't been prepped yet, and the Conover/Muth specimen from
Cameron last May that's been skinned-out but not put back together yet. We
also have an adult basic Thayer's from Washington state that hasn't been
prepped yet (which could provide a better "reference" tissue for comparing
our LA birds......
There are also several winter/spring sight records of definitive adult
Thayer's from LA. But, unfortunately, none of these has ever been collected
or photographed.
Steve
Steven W. Cardiff, Collections Manager
Sections of Ornithology and Mammalogy
Museum of Natural Science
119 Foster Hall
Louisiana State University
Baton Rouge, LA 70803-3216
Email: scardif(AT)lsu.edu
225-578-9289 (W)
225-578-3075 (FAX-W)
225-642-5763 (H)
****************************************************************************
**************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Van Remsen" <najames(AT)lsu.edu>
To: "Ian Paulsen" <birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net>
Cc: "Steve Cardiff" <scardif(AT)lsu.edu>; "Donna Dittmann" <ddittma(AT)lsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Palest of Thayer's Gulls? (fwd)
> Ian -- we actually have something like 4 "thayeri" from LA. What
> they really are is anyone's guess, because I don't think anyone here
> really thinks thayeri is a valid taxon per se. Regardless, use of
> mtDNA, which is maternally inherited, to analyze phylogeny in big
> Larus is certainly going to produce all sorts of strange results
> because of the frequency of hybridization between species level taxa
> means that maternal mtDNA from one is going to be found in the genome
> of another with unusually high frequency relative to other birds.
> I'm no expert in this area, but I wouldn't trust mtDNA to diagnose a
> large gull, only nuclear DNA (and in the case of thayeri, only
> nuclear DNA from vouchered specimens of breeding adults).
>
> I'm sure Donna Dittmann and Steve Cardiff are on top of this
> "problem", and I'll copy this message to them.
> --
> Van Remsen
> najames(AT)LSU.edu
> LSU Museum of Natural Science
> Foster Hall 119, LSU
> Baton Rouge, LA 70803
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Bowerman Basin via Greenland
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 17 Nov 2003 3:16pm
HI ALL:
As you may know there are currently two pink-footed geese at Bowerman
Basin, WA. Also recently reported there are 2 Greater White-fronted Geese
of the flavirostris subspecies. Both these geese breed in Greenland. So
What I'am wondering if anyone else has heard of Greenland birds on the
west coast before?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Bowerman Basin via Greenland
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 17 Nov 2003 6:37pm
I don't know that they are the Greenland form (I very much doubt that they
are), but we regularly get Greater White-fronted Geese in Oregon with orange
legs and bills.
on 11/17/03 2:18 PM, Ian Paulsen at birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET wrote:
> HI ALL:
> As you may know there are currently two pink-footed geese at Bowerman
> Basin, WA. Also recently reported there are 2 Greater White-fronted Geese
> of the flavirostris subspecies. Both these geese breed in Greenland. So
> What I'am wondering if anyone else has heard of Greenland birds on the
> west coast before?
>
> --
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
> A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
> "Rallidae all the way!"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Bowerman Basin via Greenland
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 17 Nov 2003 7:29pm
There is a Greater White-front in two the Pink-foot
pictures taken by the Sullivans http://photos.yahoo.com/godwit2003/
This is (I'm told) an injured White-front that is
routinely seen in the company of the Pink-foots. I enlarged
the photos and find a mostly pink bill with an orange/red lip.
The bill seems pretty heavy, too. Neither of the photos
contains a enough information to make any claims one way
or the other, but what I can see is unremarkable when
compared with typical West Coast WF's.
The Sullivan's have more photos and should be posting them
soon.
Jeff Gilligan wrote:
>
> I don't know that they are the Greenland form (I very much doubt that they
> are), but we regularly get Greater White-fronted Geese in Oregon with orange
> legs and bills.
>
> on 11/17/03 2:18 PM, Ian Paulsen at birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET wrote:
>
> > HI ALL:
> > As you may know there are currently two pink-footed geese at Bowerman
> > Basin, WA. Also recently reported there are 2 Greater White-fronted Geese
> > of the flavirostris subspecies. Both these geese breed in Greenland. So
> > What I'am wondering if anyone else has heard of Greenland birds on the
> > west coast before?
> >
> > --
> > Ian Paulsen
> > Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
> > A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
> > "Rallidae all the way!"
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
You've got to accentuate the positive
eliminate the negative
latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr. In-Between.
- Johnny Mercer
http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: races of GW-f Goose; was "Bowerman Basin via
Greenland"
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 18 Nov 2003 8:04am
Dear all,
FYI here's a link to a web section devoted to this matter:
http://www.martinreid.com/gwgo.html
- it contains an extensive list of references for material on the forms of
Greater White-fronted Goose.
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 18 Nov 2003 6:28pm
Hi Everyone,
New York birders have been enjoying a spirited and educational debate
about an interesting _Tyrannus_ flycatcher that is being seen near
Geneseo in Western New York State. Willie D'Anna has provided some
digiscoped pictures of the bird and based initially on the bill, has
wondered about the precise ID of this bird. About the same time but
independently, Jay McGowan also called for more thought about the ID.
Is this simply a Western or could it be something more exotic such as a
Couch's or Tropical?
The tail is in an interesting state of molt, perhaps amplifying the
confusion. Photos and links to more photos and video can be found on
this page:
http://www.oceanwanderers.com/NYTyrannus.html
Please take a look and as always, we'd appreciate your informed feedback.
Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Bruce H Anderson <Scizortail(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 18 Nov 2003 7:14pm
The bird looks like a hybrid Scissor-tailed Flycatcher x Western Kingbird
(probable) to me. The tail is shaped like that of a miniature scissortail's.
The gray of the breast comes down the center to the upper belly, as does that
of
a scissortail. These two species have paired together a number of times west
of the Mississippi, and they have produced offspring. With scissortails
nesting regularly in the southeastern US at present, and Western Kingbirds
struggling to spread eastward, it would not surprise me to find such a hybrid in
the
East.
Bruce
Bruce H. Anderson
Winter Park, FL
scizortail(AT)aol.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: Will Russell <willrussell(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 18 Nov 2003 7:57pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Paul Lehman asked if I would post a photo of an unknown bird from =
Gambell, AK and ask the ID-F universe for opinions. The image can be =
found at: www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg=20
There is very little additional information. It was photographed about =
August 18, 2003. There was no size or other data to add to what can be =
seen other than the observer's comment that he thought the dorsal =
surface had some sort of reddish color.
Comments should be directed to Paul at lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net .
WCR
Will Russell
will(AT)wingsbirds.com (office)
willrussell(AT)comcast.net (home)
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Listowner Message - Mailbox over Quota Error
Messages
From: Will Russell <willrussell(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 18 Nov 2003 7:58pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Every time an undeliverable ID-F post bounces back to the server, an =
error message is generated....and a copy is e-mailed to me. By far the =
most common is one generated because a subscriber has been away and =
his/her e-mailbox is full...and these can go on and on, one error =
message per post for as many day as the mailbox is over quota =20
Historically, I've ignored these messages, expecting that the problem =
would eventually be self-correcting, but the volume has now reached =
hundreds of error messages per day, on occasion, and the risk of =
deleting/missing an unrelated message is growing. =20
Consequently I've decided to remove immediately from ID-F any subscriber =
whose e-mail account generates a "mailbox over quota" message. I regret =
that I will not be able to inform those deleted....because their =
mailboxes are full.
Those purged can see the missed posts at the ID-F archives (sorted by =
day and thread) at http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html . =
As ID-F has no waiting period, former subscribers can, of course, =
re-subscribe at any time for immediate reconnection.
The best solution from my perspective would be for subscribers who have =
e-mail boxes of limited capacity and who know as well that they won't be =
able to retrieve e-mail for extended periods to set their ID-F accounts =
to "no mail " just prior to their departure. This can be done by =
sending an e-mail to: listserv(AT)listserv.arizona.edu and in the body of =
the text entering "set birdwg01 nomail" When you return home, send the =
message, "set birdwg01 mail," to the same address. You won't be able to =
get missed ID-F posts sent to you as individual messages but at least =
you'll know how many days or weeks you've missed and you won't have to =
re-register.
Thanks,
WCR
Will Russell
will(AT)wingsbirds.com (office)
willrussell(AT)comcast.net (home)
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 18 Nov 2003 11:04pm
I'm going to go with Black-headed Grosbeak
> Will Russell wrote:
>
> Paul Lehman asked if I would post a photo of an unknown bird from
> Gambell, AK and ask the ID-F universe for opinions. The image can be
> found at: www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg
>
> There is very little additional information. It was photographed
> about August 18, 2003. There was no size or other data to add to what
> can be seen other than the observer's comment that he thought the
> dorsal surface had some sort of reddish color.
>
> Comments should be directed to Paul at lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net
>
> WCR
>
> Will Russell
> will(AT)wingsbirds.com (office)
> willrussell(AT)comcast.net (home)
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
You've got to accentuate the positive
eliminate the negative
latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr. In-Between.
- Johnny Mercer
http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Pictures of Kumlien's Gulls
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 2:35am
Hi all,
in view of recent Thayer's/Kumlien's threads it may be interesting to hear
that Marnix Vandegehuchte has uploaded 265 pictures of Kumlien's Gulls
on the AERC website. These are from Newfoundland and were taken last
winter. Birds are categorized by age and, where appropriate, by "pale",
"typical" and "dark" types in order to present some of the variation in a
simple way. The direct link is
http://www.aerc.be/KumliensGull/index.htm
These are videograbs, so the quality may not always be that good, but I
hope you enjoy them nevertheless.
Regards,
Peter Adriaens
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 8:34am
Obviously (depending on the amount of white on the throat) the first record
for Alaska of Social Flycatcher, but reddish on the dorsum would indicate a
Kiskadee instead...... someone must recognize this convergent plumage
pattern as belonging to some Asian genus.
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Russell" <willrussell(AT)COMCAST.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 8:56 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
Paul Lehman asked if I would post a photo of an unknown bird from Gambell,
AK and ask the ID-F universe for opinions. The image can be found at:
www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg
There is very little additional information. It was photographed about
August 18, 2003. There was no size or other data to add to what can be seen
other than the observer's comment that he thought the dorsal surface had
some sort of reddish color.
Comments should be directed to Paul at lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net .
WCR
Will Russell
will(AT)wingsbirds.com (office)
willrussell(AT)comcast.net (home)
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: Magill Weber <magill_weber(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 9:10am
----DELETED HTML-ENCODED SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: Jeff Davis <jndavis(AT)NETPTC.NET>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 9:15am
John Idzikowski wrote:
> Obviously (depending on the amount of white on the throat) the first
record
> for Alaska of Social Flycatcher, but reddish on the dorsum would indicate
a
> Kiskadee instead...... someone must recognize this convergent plumage
> pattern as belonging to some Asian genus.
>
With the exception of the possibly red back, its features match Narcissus
Flycatcher (a species that's made it to Alaska before) fairly well.
Jeff Davis
Prather, CA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Will Russell" <willrussell(AT)COMCAST.NET>
> To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 8:56 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
>
>
> Paul Lehman asked if I would post a photo of an unknown bird from Gambell,
> AK and ask the ID-F universe for opinions. The image can be found at:
> www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg
>
> There is very little additional information. It was photographed about
> August 18, 2003. There was no size or other data to add to what can be
seen
> other than the observer's comment that he thought the dorsal surface had
> some sort of reddish color.
>
> Comments should be directed to Paul at lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net .
>
> WCR
>
> Will Russell
> will(AT)wingsbirds.com (office)
> willrussell(AT)comcast.net (home)
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: Olle Pers <Olle.Pers(AT)TELIASONERA.COM>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 9:33am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
=20
Here is an asian bird with somewhat similar head pattern:=20
http://www.tsuru-bird.net/thrushes/accentor_siberian1.jpg
<http://www.tsuru-bird.net/thrushes/accentor_siberian1.jpg> =20
=20
Olle Pers
-----Original Message-----
From: Will Russell [mailto:willrussell(AT)COMCAST.NET]=20
Sent: 19 november 2003 03:57
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
=09
=09
=09
Paul Lehman asked if I would post a photo of an unknown bird
from Gambell, AK and ask the ID-F universe for opinions. The image can
be found at: www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg=20
=20
There is very little additional information. It was
photographed about August 18, 2003. There was no size or other data to
add to what can be seen other than the observer's comment that he
thought the dorsal surface had some sort of reddish color.
=20
Comments should be directed to Paul at lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net .
=20
WCR
=20
Will Russell
will(AT)wingsbirds.com (office)
willrussell(AT)comcast.net (home)
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: Phil Jeffrey <phil(AT)XRAY2.MSKCC.ORG>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 9:37am
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Will Russell wrote:
> Paul Lehman asked if I would post a photo of an unknown bird from
> Gambell, AK and ask the ID-F universe for opinions. The image can be
> found at: www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg
>
> There is very little additional information. It was photographed about
> August 18, 2003. There was no size or other data to add to what can be
> seen other than the observer's comment that he thought the dorsal
> surface had some sort of reddish color.
>
> Comments should be directed to Paul at lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net .
To me, this bears a striking resemblance to a Great Tit (Parus major)
[or whatever they are calling the genus now]
Jet black head, striking white cheek patches, black into the upper throat,
yellow belly (with a variable black vertical stripe down the belly, not
seen in photo) and green-gray back.
Phil Jeffrey
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Jeffrey | |
| Crystallography Facility Manager | If you lie to the compiler, |
| Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, NYC | it will get its revenge |
| phil(AT)xray2.mskcc.org | - Henry Spencer |
| Voice: (212) 639 8547 Fax: (212) 717 3135 | |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 10:45am
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
At least from the photo, Narcissus flycatcher can be ruled out by the white
supercilium and pale bill. Tricolored/Yellow-rumped Flycatcher does have a
white supercilium (and is a fairly early migrant which would fit with the
date on Gambell) but again the bill is all wrong. I don't think the photo is
close to good enough to know what this is.
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Will Russell
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 6:57 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
Paul Lehman asked if I would post a photo of an unknown bird from Gambell,
AK and ask the ID-F universe for opinions. The image can be found at:
www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg
<http://www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg>
There is very little additional information. It was photographed about
August 18, 2003. There was no size or other data to add to what can be seen
other than the observer's comment that he thought the dorsal surface had
some sort of reddish color.
Comments should be directed to Paul at lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net
<mailto:lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net> .
WCR
Will Russell
will(AT)wingsbirds.com <mailto:will(AT)wingsbirds.com> (office)
willrussell(AT)comcast.net <mailto:willrussell(AT)comcast.net> (home)
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 11:00am
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
I think this is probably the answer although the bill looks wrong (this may
be an artifact of the photo). Siberian Accentors certainly look quite
rufous-toned above.
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Olle Pers
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 8:23 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
Here is an asian bird with somewhat similar head pattern:
<http://www.tsuru-bird.net/thrushes/accentor_siberian1.jpg>
http://www.tsuru-bird.net/thrushes/accentor_siberian1.jpg
Olle Pers
-----Original Message-----
From: Will Russell [mailto:willrussell(AT)COMCAST.NET]
Sent: 19 november 2003 03:57
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
Paul Lehman asked if I would post a photo of an unknown bird from Gambell,
AK and ask the ID-F universe for opinions. The image can be found at:
www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg
<http://www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg>
There is very little additional information. It was photographed about
August 18, 2003. There was no size or other data to add to what can be seen
other than the observer's comment that he thought the dorsal surface had
some sort of reddish color.
Comments should be directed to Paul at lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net
<mailto:lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net> .
WCR
Will Russell
will(AT)wingsbirds.com <mailto:will(AT)wingsbirds.com> (office)
willrussell(AT)comcast.net <mailto:willrussell(AT)comcast.net> (home)
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: William Hull <whull(AT)mangoverde.com>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 12:40pm
Really hard to tell from this pic but my first guess would be Siberian
Accentor (Prunella montanella). My northern and eastern Asian
references are in Japan at the moment so I can't look in up. It is the
closest match that I can recall.
Cheers,
Bill Hull
Cincinnati, OH, USA
http://www.mangoverde.com/birdsound/ - World Bird Guide
As of 11/18/2003 my website now has photos of 1693 bird species. Latest
additions were taken in Argentina and Australia. I am always looking
for new contributions and am particularly interested in photos from
Asia, Africa, and South America.
Will Russell wrote:
> Paul Lehman asked if I would post a photo of an unknown bird from
> Gambell, AK and ask the ID-F universe for opinions. The image can be
> found at: www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg
> <http://www.wingsbirds.com/images/gambell.jpg>
>
> There is very little additional information. It was photographed about
> August 18, 2003. There was no size or other data to add to what can be
> seen other than the observer's comment that he thought the dorsal
> surface had some sort of reddish color.
>
> Comments should be directed to Paul at lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net
> <mailto:lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net> .
>
> WCR
>
> Will Russell
> will(AT)wingsbirds.com <mailto:will(AT)wingsbirds.com> (office)
> willrussell(AT)comcast.net <mailto:willrussell(AT)comcast.net> (home)
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Unknown bird from Gambell, AK
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 12:57pm
[I posted this last night but for some reason it went to Will and Paul
rather than the whole group, sorry! I guess I'm in the Siberian Accentor
camp as well but still open to other possibilities - AW]
Wow! Looks pretty striking! Ok I'll get the ball rolling..........
Being Gambell, my first thoughts naturally gravitated to the west (i.e.
Asia), and Yellow-throated Bunting and Siberian Accentor sprang to mind.
The black facemask and pale sides to the bill might fit the bunting,
however the crown seems too rounded (there is normally a rather
prominent tuft) and more damning, the breast appears unmarked where it
should be solid black.
Siberian Accentor is a better fit in this regard but the bill seems too
big unless the bird is yawning or about to cough up a bolus? Also the
pale area above the mask seems more white than yellow. The dull chestnut
on the back of Sib. Accentor might fit the observer's impression of a
reddish dorsal surface?
The mask doesn't seem right for an adult alternate Smith's Longspur or
one of the Yellow Wagtails. If we draw a blank in asia, how about
something from the south? A kiskadee or Social Flycatcher? Again not a
perfect fit.
Looking forward to other ideas.
Angus Wilson
New York City
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Trumpeter Swan paper
From: Tony Leukering <GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 3:51pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all:
A friend is looking for a paper on pale loral spots on Trumpeter Swans on
which David Fix was a co-author. I'd have emailed David directly, but I've
lost
track of his address.
Please respond to me privately.
Sincerely,
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 10:24pm
The debate on the identity of the Geneseo kingbird continues. Some observers
are still rooting for Western Kingbird, others for Tropical or Couch's.
Bruce Anderson of Florida raised the dreaded 'H' word, suggesting the bird
might be a Scissor-tailed x Western hybrid. As you can see from some of the
comments posted on the bottom of the web page, this entertaining idea seems to
be gaining ground. Does anyone have pictures of such hybrids?
The web page is:
http://www.oceanwanderers.com/NYTyrannus.html
For reference, I've added some images of a Western Flycatcher photographed by
Andy Guthrie on the same weekend on Long Island, New York.
Keep the comments coming and thanks all those who have contributed so far.
Angus Wilson
New York City
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Bowerman "Greenland" White-front photos
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 19 Nov 2003 11:06pm
Ruth Sullivan sent me photos of the bird some have taken
to calling a _flavirostris_ White-fronted Goose. Its
rostris doesn't look all that flavi to me, but all I know
is what I read in goose books.
It has been suggested that the presence of a "real" Greenland
White-front would lend supports the legitimacy of the Pink-foots.
I'm not so sure about that, especially considering the WF in
question is apparently injured, but am interested in what others
think.
http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/temp/GWFG.html
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
You've got to accentuate the positive
eliminate the negative
latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr. In-Between.
- Johnny Mercer
http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Bowerman "Greenland" White-front photos
From: Eddie Chapman <echapman(AT)ONLINE.NO>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 12:18am
Hello Mike and list members,
Photo number one is of interest. Flavirostris often show a darker
head/underparts. If you look at the photo of the Pink-footed Goose in photo
number one, you will see that it has a darker head, compared with the
White-front to its left. The flavirostris that I have seen often show just
as dark head as the Pink-foot. In picture number two you can plainly see
that there is no difference in colouration in the birds head. If I saw this
bird I would have said albifrons. On a last note, I have no experience with
the races frontalis or gambelli
All the best,
Eddie Chapman. Voss. Norway. echapman(AT)online.no
The best site by site guide for Norway: www.birdwatching-in-norway.com
Personal Guiding; Scheduled and Custom Tours - Latest Observations
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: hybrid flycatcher reference
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Alex=20Lees?= <lincslister(AT)YAHOO.CO.UK>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 2:42am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Tyler, J.D. 1992. A hybrid Scissor-tailed Flycatcher x Western Kingbird specimen
from southwestern Oklahoma. Wilson Bulletin, 104: 178-181
this paper can be accessed electronically via http://elibrary.unm.edu/wilson/
Alex Lees
Biological Sciences Department, UEA
Norwich, England
---------------------------------
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: David Sibley <david_sibley(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 9:47am
What a fascinating bird! Thanks to Angus for hosting the discussion and to
all the participants. My initial reaction was that the bird is not a
Western, and looks good in many ways for Tropical/Couch's. I was caught off
guard by Bruce Anderson's suggestion of a hybrid, but once I got over the
surprise I could see that it's a good fit, and the bird matches the
description given in the Wilson Bulletin paper pointed out by Alex Lees.
Western Kingbird is quickly ruled out by the fact that the bird has broad
pale edges on all of the tail feathers, conspicuous pale edges on the wing
coverts and secondaries, and by the tail shape, which does not have the
ragged appearance of a bird in active molt, but instead a symmetrical and
neatly graduated appearance.
Also, as we can see in Figure 3 on Angus's website, the primary formula (of
the far wing) has the tenth primary much shorter than the 9th, and shorter
than the 6th. This fits Couch's and Cassin's, and is close to Tropical
Kingbird, but is wrong for Western. I don't know how Scissor-tailed compares
in this, but hopefully it has a short tenth primary and supports this whole
hypothesis.
Points that match the description of the Oklahoma hybrid specimen, and that
are wrong for Cassin's or Couch's, include the same tail feather edges and
tail shape; the appearance of richer orange-yellow on the sides of the
breast with paler yellow in the center; the distinctly paler yellow
undertail coverts, and the pale head.
The Oklahoma specimen is described as having the overall tail measurement
about equal to the wing, while Western has the tail about 72% of the mean
wing length, (and this is something like 83% in Tropical and Couch's) and
Scissor-tailed, of course, has the tail much longer than the wing. This
should be measurable in some photos, but I don't feel comfortable trying it
on the photos I've seen.
Bill size and shape is less useful, simply because it is so difficult to
judge and the differences are small. Scissor-tailed and Western have no
significant differences in bill size, so the appearance of a long bill in
some of the photos could be due to illusions involving the head proportions,
or actual bill size. It IS possible for a hybrid to have measurements
outside the range of either parent species.
It's a tremendously rare bird, and out of range to boot, and a great lesson
in identification. That's the only consolation to offer to the upstate New
York birders who are probably looking at halves of two very rare species.
David Sibley
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Angus Wilson
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 12:24 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western Kingbird or something else?
The debate on the identity of the Geneseo kingbird continues. Some observers
are still rooting for Western Kingbird, others for Tropical or Couch's.
Bruce Anderson of Florida raised the dreaded 'H' word, suggesting the bird
might be a Scissor-tailed x Western hybrid. As you can see from some of the
comments posted on the bottom of the web page, this entertaining idea seems
to
be gaining ground. Does anyone have pictures of such hybrids?
The web page is:
http://www.oceanwanderers.com/NYTyrannus.html
For reference, I've added some images of a Western Flycatcher photographed
by
Andy Guthrie on the same weekend on Long Island, New York.
Keep the comments coming and thanks all those who have contributed so far.
Angus Wilson
New York City
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Gary Potter <GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 10:46am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Angus, et al.: I am by no means an expert on these species. Having done most
of my birding in central California, I've seen hundreds of Western Kingbirds,
lots of Cassin's Kingbirds, and several Scissor-tailed Flycatchers (in
Texas), but have seen only one Tropical and no Couch's Kingbirds, but for what
it's
worth here is my take on this very interesting bird: I think that the tail
shape and color as well as the pinkish look to the under wing area on the bird
in flight, show that one of the parents of this bird had to be Scissor-tailed
Flycatcher, but could the other parent be a Couch's Kingbird or Tropical
Kingbird instead of Western Kingbird? My feeling on this is that the
belly/lower
breast are brighter yellow than on any WEKI I have ever seen, and the bill
seems
massive for either WEKI or STFL. Both of these characteristics seem a better
fit for Couch's/Tropical Kingbird rather than Western. On looking at the
range maps of these species, the breeding range of Scissor-tailed Flycatcher
overlaps that of both Western and Couch's Kingbirds, so either of those species
could be the other parent. However, the range of Tropical Kingbird does not
overlap that of STFL. I think (with no hard evidence to back it up) that
hybridization between species is more likely where one or the other parent is
rare or
even out of range. This is probably especially true of species groups which
rarely hybridize, like these flycatchers. Therefore I think that Tropical
Kingbird cannot be ruled out as the other parent. Just another thought to add
to
this very interesting thread. Good birding, Gary
Gary W. Potter
Sanger, Fresno Co., CA
GWPOTT(AT)aol.com
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Bruce H Anderson <Scizortail(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 11:13am
Gary et al.
The Tropical Kingbird breds in the Rio Grande valley and so does the
scissortail.
Bruce
Bruce H. Anderson
winter season editor, Florida Region, "North American Birds"
associate editor (for bird distribution), FOS "Florida Field Naturalist"
regional editor for the FOS Field Observations Committee
2917 Scarlet Road
Winter Park, FL 32792
407-671-3137
SCIZORTAIL(AT)aol.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: William Hull <whull(AT)mangoverde.com>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 11:24am
Gary Potter wrote:
> On looking at the range maps of these species, the
> breeding range of Scissor-tailed Flycatcher overlaps that of both
> Western and Couch's Kingbirds, so either of those species could be the
> other parent. However, the range of Tropical Kingbird does not overlap
> that of STFL. I think (with no hard evidence to back it up) that
> hybridization between species is more likely where one or the other
> parent is rare or even out of range. This is probably especially true
> of species groups which rarely hybridize, like these flycatchers.
> Therefore I think that Tropical Kingbird cannot be ruled out as the
> other parent. Just another thought to add to this very interesting
> thread. Good birding, Gary
>
> Gary W. Potter
> Sanger, Fresno Co., CA
>
> GWPOTT(AT)aol.com
Gary,
I believe there is overlap of winter Scissor-tailed Flycatcher and
Tropical Kingbird ranges in Mexico. Also, Scissor-tailer Flycatcher is
vagrant to areas in Tropical Kingbird breeding range. I have photos on
my website of a Scissor-tailed that I took in Tulum, Quintana Roo, on
Dec 31, 2002.
Cheers,
Bill Hull
Cincinnati, OH, USA
http://www.mangoverde.com/birdsound/ - World Bird Guide
As of 11/19/2003 my website now has photos of 1702 bird species. Latest
additions were taken in Argentina and Australia. I am always looking
for new contributions and am particularly interested in photos from
Asia, Africa, and South America.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: hybrid kingbird x scissor-tailed
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 12:23pm
Angus posted my quick comment to him on his site, just to elaborate here
are the issues that came up while discussing this bird with Chris Benesh.
I think this is a Scissor-tailed x Western hybrid. I guess one can't
exclude Tropical or Couch's as a replacement for the Western Kingbird but I
definitely urge us to stay with the most conservative and reasonable option
here. Scissor-tailed and Western are known to hybridize and overlap over a
tremendous part of their breeding ranges. Features that are not
intermediate between the two parental species can occur, it all depends on
the genetics that code for those features, mainly how many genes interact
to create the phenotype and if the interactions fall into simple
dominant-recessive patterns or not etc. I am not a geneticist but I play
one on TV.... seriously though looking at duck hybrids of known parentage
that have been published in England, it is clear that some features do not
come out intermediate in hybrids, so keep that in mind. Finally with
respect to this particular hybrid pairing vocally these two kingbirds
(Scissor-tailed really is a kingbird) are oddly similar to each other,
perhaps facilitating potential hybridization in the two?
Here are the points I brought up with Chris. Note that when I say Juvenile
below, really the bird is not a juvenile but in its first plumage cycle.
Once it has started a moult and has gained new feathers it ceases to be in
full juvenal plumage although many of the feathers could be of the juvenal
generation. Do check out the latest Condor for a fascinating, at least to
those interested in bird moult, paper by Steve Howell et al. on how the
Humphrey-Parkes system needs to be adjusted to account for variation in the
first moult cycle in birds.
- Tail looks graduated because of moult, but think about it. The innermost
rectrices moult and grow first, and this proceeds outwards in most
passerines (blackbirds being an exception). So the new central feathers
should be the longest, not the shortest! There are three sets of rectrices
that are new and three that are old, the three new ones should be longer
than the old ones not shorter, unless they are fully grown and the tail
shape is actually graduated with the outermost feathers being much longer
than the innermost. I think that this is the case and that points strongly
to Scissor-tailed being involved.
- the central tail feathers are good and square, too squared off for
Tropical/Couch's and maybe even too squared off for Western Kingbird?
- why is the tail not longer? I think the tail is relatively long but the
angles do not show this well. Also if this is a juvenile, and I think it
is, and the outer tail feathers are still of the juvenile generation then
they wouldn't be all that long yet any way, particularly on a hybrid.
- back a mix of olive and grey could make sense with this hybrid combination.
- Underpart colours suggest Scissor-tail genes, particularly the fact that
the brightest yellow is under the bend of the wing. - Also the feathers
here look long and wispy, isn't the pink patch on a Scissor-tail a bit like
a tuft rather than regular body feathers?
- Primaries are actually pretty long from what I can see, they are too long
for Couch's/Tropical but fit well for either Western or Scissor-tailed.
- Primaries rounded and 'normal' shaped even on the outer ones, this
suggests its a juvenile bird to me not an adult. The coverts look new as if
this bird moulted them all in, they contrast with older primaries and
primary coverts. Not sure what that means. New inner tail and old outer
suggests a young bird too.
- lacks the olive breast colour, the vest common in
Couch's/Tropical/Cassin's. Pattern right between Western and
Scissor-tailed, particularly that grey heading into the lower breast and
upper belly. I even think that the yellow underparts have an odd orange
tint to them that is just odd for a typical yellow-bellied kingbird.
Let me know what you think, but when I first saw the photo you sent me I
was really confused it didn't look quite right for anything. You had to
bend the rules to make it fit, but this hybrid option resolves some of the
problems.
cheers
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)comcast.net
Montara, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Chris Benesh <cdbenesh(AT)COX.NET>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 1:08pm
Hi Angus,
Thanks for the interesting kingbird thread. I think that the brainstorming
may be yielding some good results. As for me, after thinking about the bird
for two days now, I still cannot get my head around what it is exactly. It
is not a Western Kingbird, nor is it a Tropical Kingbird (if the bird's
voice is as it has been described). I disagree with those who think that
the bill is too long for Couch's. To my eyes, there are really short-billed
Couch's, really long-billed Tropicals, and then a number that fall in
between. This bird is one of those falling in between. The next question
is, is this bird a Couch's? [Caution - no answer is arrived at below. :-)]
I have posted a few Couch's images for comparison. They are of a
March-April bird, so there is fading and wear to the wings and tail. But
check out coloration, bill shape and length, and overall structure, etc.
http://members.cox.net/fgibenesh/couchskingbird.html
I get to see a lot of kingbirds in my travels, and have spent a lot of time
thinking about them in recent years. When I first saw a photo (it was
figure 1 I believe) of the New York kingbird, I thought almost immediately
of a Couch's/Tropical Kingbird. This image, combined with the described
call, seemed to make it likely Couch's. I was bothered by a few subtle
things, but overall that seemed to make sense.
Then I read Bruce Anderson's comments about a hybrid Scissor-tailed X
Western, and took a look at the additional material. Interesting! Alvaro
Jaramillo did an analysis of the bird, and shared his thoughts with me. In
short, there seem to be some things to suggest that this bird could be a
hybrid, with Scissor-tailed as one likely parent.
While the bird still looks very Couch's-like, I am bothered by the apparent
strength of the whitish fringing to the new central rectrices. Couch's can
show some pale fringing, but this looks rather strong. Was the fringing
truly white in the field, or just pale? Incidentally, is strong pale
fringing a feature on RR-1-3 of Scissor-tailed Flycatchers at all (or is it
just RR-4-6)? If someone is reading this close to a specimen drawer,
perhaps they can provide an answer. Also, the apparent strong whitish
edging to the tail seen in the video captures is wrong for Couch's. Has
anyone seen detail of the underside of the tail? Is there any white present
on the inner webbing of R6? What is the pattern of R5? Is there any white
present on the outer web of this feather? Their presence would support a
STFL parentage. Are the video clips an accurate representation of reality?
I am also bothered by the coloration of where the breast meets the belly.
Specifically, it seems to be lacking in olive tone (as is typical of
Couch's/Tropical), and is strangely washed out right in the mid-breast. Are
these STFL features being expressed or just an aberrant Couch's?
If the bird is indeed a hybrid, I have to say that I share David Muth's
concerns about two short-billed parents producing a long-billed progeny.
Having said this, the small-billed species occasionally occur in long-billed
varients. For example, a couple of year's back, Steve Howell found an
extremely long-billed Cassin's Kingbird in Garden Canyon, AZ. It was
Cassin's in all respects excepting a Tropical-like bill. Am I seeing pale
at the base of the bill in a couple of the photos, or is that an artifact.
The presence of pale would suggest Scissor-tai influence.
I am also troubled by how bright and extensive the yellow underparts are,
and the apparent strength of the greenish cast to the upperparts (both of
the described presumptive STFL X WEKI were described as being rather pale
gray above, with just slight greenish tones on one bird, and both had
yellowish underparts that were described as a bit paler than a typical
Western Kingbird). This bird is also more strongly masked than either of
the described hybrids. I have been under the impression that Couch's
Kingbird has been advancing northward in Texas, presumably potentially into
the breeding range of Scissor-tailed Flycatcher. While Western is much more
closely related to STFL than Couch's, perhaps a Scissor-tailed X Couch's
hybrid would not be too outrageous.
Getting back to the tail for a moment. The tail shape does resemble a
Scissor-tailed somewhat in terms of the degree of graduation. Consider that
there appear to be three pairs of new feathers, and three pairs of
presumably older, juvenile feathers. If you look at the fresh set, there
central pair (R1) are shorter than R2, which are again, shorter than R3.
The same is true for the older three pairs. While this is true of all
kingbirds, the degree of graduation seems too great for a non-STFL tail. If
I am interpreting Al Jaramillo's comments correctly, RR1-3 are grown in
rather than in the process of growing in. If they were still growing, would
we not expect to see R1 longer than R2 and R3, having been the first new
generation rectrix to come in? If we assume that they are grown in, then
the only kingbird with that degree of tail graduation is Scissor-tailed
Flycatcher. On the other hand, the worm RR4-6 are rather brown, much like
they appear on Couch's.
I agree that the feathers look rather truncate, but isn't the type of
partial tail replacement seen on the NY bird normally a feature of a
preformative molt (ie, from a hatch year bird), rather than a definitive
prebasic molt (AHY)? I would love to hear from banders/curators to clear up
this point, as I am going mainly on what is published in Pyle's,
Identification Guide to North American Birds. On the other hand, there are
no other signs of eccentric, preformative molt, so maybe it is an adult bird
with a weird tail. It is in New York in November, after all.
I have to hedge my bets, since I cannot settle on any one opinion. On the
one hand, Couch's Kingbird fits in many regards, yet there may be some
Scissor-tailed Flycatcher genes involved. I feel you can safely rule out a
pure Western Kingbird and a pure Tropical Kingbird.
Chris
-------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Benesh Minds are like parachutes. They
(32°09.512N,110°46.248W) only function when they are open.
Tucson, Arizona James Dewar
cdbenesh(AT)cox.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: The second WEKI X STFL reference
From: Chris Benesh <cdbenesh(AT)COX.NET>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 1:28pm
Hi All,
Some of you reading the Wilson Bulletin piece regarding the Oklahoma bird
may have noticed a reference to a second paper in the Condor.
Here is the link for it:
http://elibrary.unm.edu/Condor/files/issues/v072n01/index.html
It is the third article down, Davis & Webster
Chris
-------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Benesh Minds are like parachutes. They
(32°09.512N,110°46.248W) only function when they are open.
Tucson, Arizona James Dewar
cdbenesh(AT)cox.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada
From: Blake Maybank <maybank(AT)NS.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 2:10pm
Dear ID Frontiers;
At the request of a friend in New Brunswick I've posted 10 images of a
mystery gull observed at Baie Verte, New Brunswick, 19 November 2003. It's
that time of year.
The URL for the images is:
http://maybank.tripod.com/images/nb-mystery-gull.htm
By all means feel free to post your thoughts publically on this forum, but
since the observer does not have access to this forum, he'd appreciate an
e-mailed copy of your thoughts and diagnoses. Or you may send them to me,
and I'll forward them.
"Alain Clavette" <piranga(AT)rogers.com>
My first impressions are that the bird is a hybrid, but I often strike out
on gulls, so I defer to the designated hitters.
Cordially,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blake Maybank
White's Lake, Nova Scotia
mailto:maybank(AT)ns.sympatico.ca
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada
From: Ned Brinkley <Phoebetria(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 2:29pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
In a message dated 11/20/03 4:11:51 PM, maybank(AT)NS.SYMPATICO.CA writes:
> http://maybank.tripod.com/images/nb-mystery-gull.htm
>
Thanks to Blake for posting these images of the mystery gull. I can't
pretend to know what it is, but I can attest to seeing up to 5-6 birds like
this
per year (since about 1989) between the coast of Virginia (and nearby
landfills)
and the Outer Banks of North Carolina. We have not been able to match the
phenotype to any named taxon of four-year gull, and so these go into the bin,
provisionally, as "probable hybrid Lesser Black-backed x Herring Gull,"
although in some cases, I think pale-legged, slightly-darker-mantled, large
birds
like this are just male Lessers with washed-out leg color. It is remarkable
that the appearance of these birds has been consistent over the past 15 years.
Another group of birds, more similar to "Yellow-legged Gull" (atlantis,
michahellis, or possibly birds from taxonomically unsettled w. Iberian
populations),
pose another set of riddles, also not yet definitively solved by any means.
Ned Brinkley
Cape Charles, VA
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Bowerman "Greenland" White-front photos
From: Bruce Deuel <bkrdeuel(AT)SNOWCREST.NET>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 2:30pm
Hello all,
In contrast to Mr. Chapman, I have extensive field experience with frontalis
and elgasi, but none with flavirostris or albifrons, or gambeli for that
matter, if that taxon exists. That said, I see nothing in these photos that
fall outside the range of frontalis. In my 12 years of capturing and
banding Greater White-fronted Geese in the Klamath Basin of northern
California, and searching through flocks every year for collared birds of
both frontalis and elgasi, I saw numerous individuals with some orange in
the bill, but they were otherwise not distinguishable from their flock
mates. If I remember correctly, however, the tendency to more orange was
more pronounced in young birds, which this individual clearly is not.
Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA
USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eddie Chapman" <echapman(AT)ONLINE.NO>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 2:05 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Bowerman "Greenland" White-front photos
> Hello Mike and list members,
> Photo number one is of interest. Flavirostris often show a darker
> head/underparts. If you look at the photo of the Pink-footed Goose in
photo
> number one, you will see that it has a darker head, compared with the
> White-front to its left. The flavirostris that I have seen often show just
> as dark head as the Pink-foot. In picture number two you can plainly see
> that there is no difference in colouration in the birds head. If I saw
this
> bird I would have said albifrons. On a last note, I have no experience
with
> the races frontalis or gambelli
>
> All the best,
> Eddie Chapman. Voss. Norway. echapman(AT)online.no
> The best site by site guide for Norway: www.birdwatching-in-norway.com
> Personal Guiding; Scheduled and Custom Tours - Latest Observations
>
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 2:42pm
At 01:08 PM 11/20/2003 -0700, Chris Benesh wrote:
>While the bird still looks very Couch's-like, I am bothered by the apparent
>strength of the whitish fringing to the new central rectrices. Couch's can
>show some pale fringing, but this looks rather strong.
We have several Couch's with nice whitish fringing up the rectrices in the
collections here at Cornell. In Scissor-tails, though, the central
rectrices look just like Westerns: black with pale-edged tips only,
nothing going up the edges.
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 2:50pm
I had an adult bird with the same shade of mantle gray on the western shore
of Lake Michigan in Milwaukee 2 weeks ago; you can at least see that shade
on this poor digital as well as the size-
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/larid.jpg
The legs were dull pinkish, iris pale yellow. Eye softparts were reddish;
the bird had a flat forehead, fierce-eyed appearance like that seen in many
smithy males. We have had other pink-legged, dark-mantled birds for about 8
years such as these. These appeared about 15 years after our first LBBG. We
also see obvious B4 graellsii with pinkish-yellow legs, but they show
immaturity in bill markings; this is not the case here. I think these birds
are probably HERG X LBBG (graellsii). These pink-legged birds seem to always
fall at the very light end of graellsii gray if not below it on the Kodak
grayscale.
We yearly see LBBG arive on southern Lake Michigan during the last week of
September; I cannot believe that these birds originate in Iceland, the UK
or western Europe. I'm holding out for an undiscovered North American LBBG
breeding population with smithy pairings; juv. LBBG can be difficult to find
so could easily miss detection of that cohort.
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Blake Maybank" <maybank(AT)NS.SYMPATICO.CA>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 3:09 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada
> Dear ID Frontiers;
>
> At the request of a friend in New Brunswick I've posted 10 images of a
> mystery gull observed at Baie Verte, New Brunswick, 19 November 2003.
It's
> that time of year.
>
> The URL for the images is:
>
> http://maybank.tripod.com/images/nb-mystery-gull.htm
>
> By all means feel free to post your thoughts publically on this forum, but
> since the observer does not have access to this forum, he'd appreciate an
> e-mailed copy of your thoughts and diagnoses. Or you may send them to me,
> and I'll forward them.
>
> "Alain Clavette" <piranga(AT)rogers.com>
>
> My first impressions are that the bird is a hybrid, but I often strike out
> on gulls, so I defer to the designated hitters.
>
> Cordially,
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> Blake Maybank
> White's Lake, Nova Scotia
> mailto:maybank(AT)ns.sympatico.ca
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: white-fronted goose at Bowerman Basin, WA
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 3:03pm
HI ALL:
This is from Malcolm Ogilvie:
Hi Ian
This is definitely NOT a flavirostris Whitefront. The bill is pink not
orange, the white forehead is too extensive and lacks the usual dark
edging between the white and the rest of the head, while the bird is,
overall, far too pale. It certainly has extensive black barring on the
belly, typical of the majority of flavirostris, but this still falls
within the variation that occurs in, e.g., albifrons and frontalis. In
other words, the extent of the black barring is not diagnostic of any
race.
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada
From: Ned Brinkley <Phoebetria(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 3:26pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
In a message dated 11/20/03 4:50:47 PM, idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU writes:
>=20
> We yearly see LBBG arive on southern Lake Michigan during the last week of
> September; I cannot believe that these birds=A0 originate in Iceland, the=20=
UK
> or western Europe.
>=20
As unlikely as it may seem, adult _graellsii_ Lessers can be quite scarce on=
=20
Iceland by early October, and a whole lot of them breed there, so they are=20
departing Iceland between late August and September, probably in part depend=
ing=20
on the success/timing of the nesting. We see first arriving adults here, o=
n=20
average, in mid-September, sometimes in numbers on the beaches of Virginia=20
Beach. More and more, too, we have summering subadults and a few adults in=
=20
southeasternmost Virginia, so arrival gets harder to peg, as summering birds=
become=20
more common.
Ned Brinkley
Cape Charles, VA
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: white-fronted goose at Bowerman Basin, WA
From: Michel Veldt <michel.veldt(AT)KABELFOON.NL>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 3:26pm
I fully agree with Ian and in addition to the characters mentioned by him I
would like to add the following: both the white stripe on the flanks as well
as the white on it's tail edges both are much too prominent for
flavirostris.
A Greenland-race would show much smaller edges of white on both places. From
what's visible on the pictures I think you can safely rule out flavirostris.
Best regards,
Michel Veldt
The Netherlands
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 3:43pm
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
20 years ago, I spent a couple of weeks seawatching off the coast of S.
Morocco from Aug 6-23. We had obvious movements of Lesser Black-backed Gulls
totalling several hundred birds (600 comes to mind). In addition large flock
of migrants could be seen on the beachs further south. Based on the
variation in mantle color both intermedius and graellsii were involved.
These birds must have conservatively already migrated about 1200+ miles,
even from the nearest natal areas in S. Britain, so Michigan by late
September doesn't seem too much of a stretch to birds from Iceland.
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ned Brinkley
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 2:26 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada
In a message dated 11/20/03 4:50:47 PM, idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU writes:
We yearly see LBBG arive on southern Lake Michigan during the last week of
September; I cannot believe that these birds originate in Iceland, the UK
or western Europe.
As unlikely as it may seem, adult _graellsii_ Lessers can be quite scarce on
Iceland by early October, and a whole lot of them breed there, so they are
departing Iceland between late August and September, probably in part
depending on the success/timing of the nesting. We see first arriving
adults here, on average, in mid-September, sometimes in numbers on the
beaches of Virginia Beach. More and more, too, we have summering subadults
and a few adults in southeasternmost Virginia, so arrival gets harder to
peg, as summering birds become more common.
Ned Brinkley
Cape Charles, VA
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: mystery gull from new brunswick
From: Jim Barton <redwingatfp1986(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 3:59pm
Hello. Several years ago I studied a bird like NB bird on an ice flow
in Newburyport Harbor, MA in early winter. From darkness of the mantle, I
judged the bird to be intermedius. It appeared to be an adult. But it had
pink legs. A query to UKBirdnet produced a suggestion that I consult Grant
on gulls, where I would find that pink legs were a sign of 3rd year LBBG.
Yours,
Jim Barton
redwingatfp1986(AT)comcast.net
Cambridge, MA
US Coordinator, Proact
campaigning for birds and their habitats
before it's too late
www.proact-campaigns.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Lesser Black-backed Gull - Early Fall
Migration
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 4:41pm
LESSER BLACK-BACKED GULL is indeed a very early fall migrant, much
earlier than other large gulls.
Here at Point Pelee on western Lake Erie (Ontario), I have compiled the
following data:
TYPICAL (AVERAGE / NORMAL) fall arrival is pegged at August 10.
RECORD EARLY FALL ARRIVALS are:
July 19 (same year -- single second-summer & third-summer)
August 5 (two years -- single fourth-summer & third-summer)
August 6 (adult)
The earliest JUVENILE arrival is August 18 (1988)
(NOTE: Most summers we get one or perhaps two records of summering
birds, virtually all of which are first-year birds.)
NUMBERS start arriving by late September, such as the six (6) birds
recorded on September 27, 1998.
Regardless whether they are breeding in North America or not, they
migrate much earlier than their relatives. Perhaps a few do breed in
North America, but as suggested by Ned Brinkley the vast majority are
undoubtedly originating from elsewhere (particularly Iceland).
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Andy Guthrie <andyguthrie(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 8:19pm
Kurt Fox has managed to get some additional illuminating pictures of the
Tyrannus flycatcher, including some nice shots of the spread tail and the
underwings. Kurt asked that the link be forwarded to ID-Frontiers:
http://home.eznet.net/~kfox/wny/weki/tyrannus.htm
Might these, and Kevin McGowan's specimen review (especially regarding the
amounts of white on the retrices of STFL?) cast a little more doubt on a
hybrid Western/Scissor-tailed? (With the previously stated caveat that the
hybrid progeny may show features not shared by either parent.)
As Kurt also mentions, his final photo appears to show the wings as
contrasting slightly paler compared to the fresh black tail feathers. This
seems different than the impression in Willie D'Anna's original pictures
and, if accurate, seems to point more towards Western than Couch's/Tropical.
As far as I can tell summarizing from various messages, the primary points
pointing away from Couch's are:
- extent of white on the outer retrices
- shape of the retrices
- possibly the tone of the upper breast (not olive-yellow)
- possibly the wing/tail contrast
- primary projection too long?
Against Tropical, these and also perhaps the bill size still not long enough
and, of course, the call.
Against Western:
- bill size perhaps too large
- underparts color may be too bright? (I don't agree that the extent is at
issue - see, e.g., my reference photo's on Angus's page), though also see
these pictures showing similar apparent tint:
http://www.gos.org/sightings/weki-20010118-363-08.jpg
http://www.focusonnature.com/WKingbird.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rastorey/Pictures/Western_Kingbird.jpg
- white on more than just outer retrix?
- white on outer retrix not reaching tip?
- wing formula not right? e.g. - see Pyle p. 261 - does this formula of
p10-p7 roughly equivalent & longer than p6 hold for all ages (the shape of
the feathers appears consistent with young bird) Can we tell for certain
what the shape/length of P10 is from Fig 2 on Angus's page?
Looking at these make me think that maybe there is more Western Kingbird
blood in this bird than not - unless something like the wing formula is a
clear knockout. A hybrid of some combination may still be the best way to
fit all the evidence...
Andy Guthrie
Greenwich, CT
andyguthrie(AT)earthlink.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Chris Benesh <cdbenesh(AT)COX.NET>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 9:54pm
Hi Andy,
Thanks for alerting us to the additional photos. They clear up a lot of
uncertainty in my mind. However, they lead me to a different conclusion
than you (I think). Though it is difficult to see the exact distribution of
white in the tail, it is clearly greater than the outer vane of R6 (the
limit of white on Western Kingbird). It looks like it might include some
inner vane of R6 and outer vane of R5. Of all of the species we are
considering, only Scissor-tailed Flycatcher possesses this character. Since
this bird is obviously not a Scissor-tailed Flycatcher, the most likely
alternative is that it is a hybrid. So a bird which such a deeply forked
tail (that appears not to be in active molt), and that shows the above
distribution of white, really suggests Scissor-tailed Flycatcher as one
parent. The other parent is anyone's guess. As Alvaro points out, the
overwhelming probability is that the other parent is a Western (I agree
Al!). If the tail is indeed much darker than the wings (the angle and my
monitor image are inconclusive), that would add a bit of weight to a Western
being the other parent. One still has to consider that the central tail
feathers are brand new and as dark as they will ever get, whereas the wing
feathers are retained juvenile feathers, thus older, and likely at least
slightly faded toward brown. There are still those nagging
Couch's/Tropical-like features. Long bill, bright underparts, greenish
back, pale whitish fringing to the central rectrices, and perhaps even the
extent of yellow in the underwing linings. Thus, I still think that
Couch's/Tropical needs to be considered as a possibility for the other
parent, even if the probability is remote.
I think it is safe to say that anyone considering the bird to be a pure form
of anything at this point is beating a dead horse. A very cool bird indeed.
One I wish I could have seen in life!
Thanks Kevin for looking up the details about pale rectrix fringing on the
various kingbird species!
Chris
On 11/20/03 8:20 PM, "Andy Guthrie" <andyguthrie(AT)EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> Might these, and Kevin McGowan's specimen review (especially regarding the
> amounts of white on the retrices of STFL?) cast a little more doubt on a
> hybrid Western/Scissor-tailed? (With the previously stated caveat that the
> hybrid progeny may show features not shared by either parent.)
>
> As Kurt also mentions, his final photo appears to show the wings as
> contrasting slightly paler compared to the fresh black tail feathers. This
> seems different than the impression in Willie D'Anna's original pictures
> and, if accurate, seems to point more towards Western than Couch's/Tropical.
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Gary Potter <GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 9:56pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
After looking at Kurt's photos, this bird looks a lot more like a Western
Kingbird than the previous photos. The last picture makes the bill look more
like the correct proportion for Western and Scissor-tailed than the previous
pictures. The apparent pinkish under wing in the previous flight photos was
obviously an artifact of the lighting, probably caused by shadowing of the
yellow
which shows so well on Kurt's photo (to me it really looked more orangish on
the flight photo than pinkish any way). I don't know how the tail shape and
white on the two outer rectrices can be explained for a pure Western, but the
new
photos sure make it look more Western than Couch's/Tropical. -- Gary
Gary W. Potter
Sanger, Fresno Co., CA
GWPOTT(AT)aol.com
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: More Fuel for the Fire?
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 10:45pm
More fuel for the fire . . . ?
On November 7, 1987, an interesting "kingbird" was present here at Point
Pelee -- a very late date for a Western Kingbird in Ontario.
Anyways, at the time there were some aspects of the bird that did not
appear "correct" for Western Kingbird, and the possibility of a hybrid
with Scissor-tailed Flycatcher was entertained. Despite this, I
ultimately concluded that the bird was a Western Kingbird, and the record
was accepted as such by the OBRC.
I just dug out my original description, and was surprised that (1) the
problem features seem to match some or most of those currently affecting
the New York bird; and (2) my notes are, happily, rather detailed
(without the benefit of full-frame photos).
Anyways, here are the main points in my description of the 1987 bird at
Point Pelee that are of interest:
-- Back darker gray [than head] with a very obvious olive-green cast.
-- Throat very creamy-white with a slight pearl gray appearance.
Remainder of underparts to undertail coverts bright lemon yellow,
otherwise unmarked.
-- Wings mid-brown in colour and unmarked, except for slight pale edges
to some feathers.
-- Tail apparently peculiar, appearing perhaps as much as one inch too
long; also thinner than expected
-- When [tail] folded, tail-tip appearing more round than square-ended;
from above feathers were layered, upper ones progressively shorter, with
the bottom-most the longest. Tail feathers appeared to be round-tipped,
like a pencil with a rubber tip.
-- In flight, tail spread like a Scissor-tailed Flycatcher, with deepish
fork and outer feathers long and splayed; outermost feather (on each
side) with clear, white outer edge to end (or almost to end) of feather.
Overall, this 1987 bird comes pretty close to the current bird in New
York. Do we have another Western Kingbird X Scissor-tailed Flycatcher?
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or
something else?
From: Doug Faulkner <Myiodynastes(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 20 Nov 2003 11:19pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi,
I'll stick my neck out here a bit. If the rectrices of a hybrid can be
intermediate, why not the primaries? Earlier posts mentioned that the primary
formula was wrong for Western Kingbird, but my initial thought was - well, so
is
the tail. If the tail can "lengthen" is it not also possible for the primaries
to "lengthen" or give an intermediate formula. I haven't studied many, but
looking at the usual field guides it appears that Scissor-tailed Flycatcher has
a primary formula more similar to Couch's Kingbird with a long gap in the
P5-7 range. If so, then would it not be possible for a STFL x WEKI hybrid to
have a more STFL-like wing formula as it does for the tail? This may be cause
for some concern in using wing formula when determining parentage of a hybrid.
Also, again looking at field guides and not much from personal experience,
but don't only adult Scissor-tailed Flycatchers have pink underparts? I've
read
no mention of this bird being anything other than a juvenile. Is this not
correct?
Doug Faulkner
Arvada, CO
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada
From: Harry Hussey <hhussey3(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 21 Nov 2003 6:08am
Hi all,
My initial response would be that the bird is a
subadult graellsii Lesser Black-backed Gull,perhaps a
male(due to comments about large size with respect to
Herring Gull).
While it may be a hybrid HEGU x LBBGU,I would expect
such a bird to be paler above,and to show some
pro-Herring structural characteristics(especially if
smithsonianus was the Herring parent):it looks good
for graellsii in terms of structure.
Most graellsii should show at least a faint yellowish
cast at this age,but some retain pink legs:saw a
similar bird at Cobh,Co.Cork a few years ago which I
suspect was a LBB.
Are there any pics showing the spread upperwing?
While this bird would be safe enough to ID as
graellsii here(where the taxon is abundant),is it good
enough to accept as such in North America?
Harry Hussey,Cork,Ireland
--- Blake Maybank <maybank(AT)NS.SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:
> Dear ID Frontiers;
>
> At the request of a friend in New Brunswick I've
> posted 10 images of a
> mystery gull observed at Baie Verte, New Brunswick,
> 19 November 2003. It's
> that time of year.
>
> The URL for the images is:
>
> http://maybank.tripod.com/images/nb-mystery-gull.htm
>
> By all means feel free to post your thoughts
> publically on this forum, but
> since the observer does not have access to this
> forum, he'd appreciate an
> e-mailed copy of your thoughts and diagnoses. Or
> you may send them to me,
> and I'll forward them.
>
> "Alain Clavette" <piranga(AT)rogers.com>
>
> My first impressions are that the bird is a hybrid,
> but I often strike out
> on gulls, so I defer to the designated hitters.
>
> Cordially,
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Blake Maybank
> White's Lake, Nova Scotia
> mailto:maybank(AT)ns.sympatico.ca
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: mystery gull from new brunswick
From: Nick Rossiter <nrossiter(AT)SUPANET.COM>
Date: 21 Nov 2003 6:54am
This gull looks like LBBG in structure with small head, fine short slightly
tapering bill and short legs. The lack of any blue-grey in the mantle is not
a good sign for HEGU influence. Atlantic YLG can be ruled out on the lack of
blue-grey in the mantle and the rather lightweight head and bill.
The bird appears to still be in primary moult. The new P6 and P7 show rather
small primary tips, another feature of LBBG. The exact moult state would be
easier to determine on a bird in flight.
I think I would go for LBBG fourth winter with the bird falling into the
minority which have immature bare parts (flesh legs and extensive black
markings on the bill). This minority is pretty small according to Grant (3%)
but maybe it's larger in some populations.The coverts look too clean for a
third-winter.
Best wishes ... Nick
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Fw: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick,
Canada
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 21 Nov 2003 7:38am
Blake Maybank wrote:> At the request of a friend in New Brunswick I've
> posted 10 images of a
> > mystery gull observed at Baie Verte, New Brunswick, 19 November 2003.
> It's
> > that time of year.
> >
> > The URL for the images is:
> >
> > http://maybank.tripod.com/images/nb-mystery-gull.htm
> >
> > By all means feel free to post your thoughts publically on this forum,
but
> > since the observer does not have access to this forum, he'd appreciate
an
> > e-mailed copy of your thoughts and diagnoses. Or you may send them to
me,
> > and I'll forward them.
> >
> > "Alain Clavette" <>
> >
> > My first impressions are that the bird is a hybrid, but I often strike
out
> > on gulls, so I defer to the designated hitters.<
We come across similar birds here in NW Europe during autumn migration.
Apart from hybrids they may be near adults with legs not yellow yet,
sometimes the immaturity is revealed by dark centres in one or more primary
coverts. They may originate from Iceland but similarly they may originate
>from other European countries, it should be remembered that the first LBBG
in the USA of proven origin came from The Netherlands. The idea however that
somewhere in the Americas LBBG's breed or hybridize should stimulate all of
you to go out there in summer and do some work in colonies and while you're
there don't forget to give them a colour-ring!
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Fw: white-fronted goose at Bowerman
Basin, WA
From: Michel Veldt <michel.veldt(AT)KABELFOON.NL>
Date: 21 Nov 2003 11:13am
Yesterday I sent this posting and although I received a note that it was
distributed to the groups succesfuly it didn't arrive.
So I tried to send it again.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Veldt" <michel.veldt(AT)kabelfoon.nl>
To: <birdwg01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] white-fronted goose at Bowerman Basin, WA
> I fully agree with Ian and in addition to the characters mentioned by him
I
> would like to add the following: both the white stripe on the flanks as
well
> as the white on it's tail edges both are much too prominent for
> flavirostris.
> A Greenland-race would show much smaller edges of white on both places.
From
> what's visible on the pictures I think you can safely rule out
flavirostris.
>
> Best regards,
> Michel Veldt
> The Netherlands
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Odd Sea duck
From: Bill Elrick <belrick(AT)OPTONLINE.NET>
Date: 21 Nov 2003 11:36am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
I have been kicking this duck around for about a week now and I can=92t
get a good idea of what it could be.
I saw this duck off the shore from Manomet sea front Ma on the 13th of
November 2003.
It looks like it could be an aberrant coloration of a Scoter.
Sorry not the best photo but it was taken with a handheld digital thru
a 30x70 telescope.
=20
HYPERLINK
"http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=3D4159967&a=3D30956370&p=3D6=
57033
56&f=3D0"http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=3D4159967&a=3D309563=
70&p=3D
65703356&f=3D0
=20
HYPERLINK
"http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=3D4159967&a=3D30956370&f=3D=
0"htt
p://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=3D4159967&a=3D30956370&f=3D0
=20
Anyone any ideas?
=20
=20
Bill Elrick
NJ
=20
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I have =
been
kicking this duck around for about a week now and I can=92t get a good =
idea
of what it could be.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I saw this duck off the shore from Manomet sea front =
Ma on </span></font><st1:date
Month=3D"11" Day=3D"13" Year=3D"2003"><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>the 13th of November =
2003</span></font></st1:date><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It looks like it could be an aberrant coloration of a =
Scoter.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Sorry =
not the
best photo but it was taken with a handheld digital thru a 30x70 =
telescope.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=3D4159967&a=3D309=
56370&p=3D65703356&f=3D0">http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPho=
to?u=3D4159967&a=3D30956370&p=3D65703356&f=3D0</a><o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=3D4159967&a=3D30=
956370&f=3D0">http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=3D4159967&=
amp;a=3D30956370&f=3D0</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><span
class=3DGramE>Anyone any ideas?</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Bill Elrick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>NJ<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: NY Kingbird
From: Shaibal Mitra <mitra(AT)mail.csi.cuny.edu>
Date: 21 Nov 2003 12:22pm
Hi all,
To my eye, the retained outer rectrices on the NY kingbird appear truncate,
indicating an AHY bird. See fig. 169 in Pyle (p. 254), and compare Willie’s
shot of the upper tail (Angus’ fig. 4) and Kurt’s excellent shot of the
undertail. Even these retained feathers do not resemble juvenal rectrices.
Regarding the wing formula and primary shape, I find it difficult to believe
that the outer primaries shown in Willie’s shot of the spread wing (Angus’ fig.
2) are those of a juvenal kingbird—or those of adult Tropical, Couch’s, or
Cassin’s. To my eye, p6 appears notched (inappropriate for juv kingbirds) and
the visible portions of p7-10 appear very narrow (much narrower, for instance,
than the greater alula)—again inappropriate for juv kingbirds, and too
extensively narrow for adult Tropical, Couch’s, or Cassin’s. Compare Pyle’s
fig. 172, which suggests that kingbirds’ juv pp tips are at least as broad as
the greater alula, whereas the narrowed tips of the notched, adult pp are
narrower. If this analysis is correct, then primary shape also supports age of
this bird as AHY.
David Sibley showed a very sharp eye to detect our best hint at the actual pp
formula—on the far wing in one of Willie’s shots (Angus’ fig. 3). I agree that
p10 appears slightly shorter than p6, which is inappropriate for Western
Kingbird. Even so, the gross appearance of the wingtip (long primary
projection, relatively pointed) in a wide range of photos, both folded and in
flight, seems even less like those of Tropical and Couch’s.
Obviously, several features of the tail are puzzling. Foremost is the fact
that, although rr4-6 are old and certainly not growing in, rr4 are obviously
shorter than rr6, which is what one would expect on a fork-shaped tail, not a
square-tipped tail. Furthermore, an adult flycatcher, when molting its tail,
ought to start with rr1 (inner pair) and work outward (though perhaps replacing
rr6 early on also—the latter is not true on this bird as rr6 are present). I
would think that incoming rr1 ought to be longer than incoming rr2, and conceal
them. On this bird, rr3 are longer than rr2, which are longer than rr1.
I saw this morning that Alvaro also noticed this, though via a different
assessment of the bird’s age. These anomalies, plus those involving the
pigmentation of the rectrices, certainly invite speculation concerning
Scissor-tail ancestry—but I would be interested to see this angle advanced
within a more rigorous analysis of age and molt.
The conventional wisdom is that Western molts on the winter grounds (HYs
entirely so, AHYs finishing up there). Isn’t it also true that Western Kingbirds
leave the breeding areas pretty early? Presumably adult WEKI (or WEKI x STFL)
that have almost completed the PB molt are unfamiliar to the vast majority of NA
birders. Certainly, we in the East are more familiar with uniformly worn,
pre-molt HYs. How do WEKI specimens collected on the wintering grounds in
November look?
Best,
Shai
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Subject: Re: NY Kingbird
From: Tony Leukering <GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 21 Nov 2003 2:47pm
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Hi all:
Shai's analysis is interesting - unless I don't understand, he seems to be
suggesting that the bird might not have STFL in it. But, the tail is just TOO
long, TOO graduated, and with TOO much white in the outer rects to be a pure
WEKI.
While I'm not sure that I'm absolutely convinced that the other parent is a
WEKI (the belly looks a bit too yellow to my eye), it seems the most
parsimonious answer to a question to which we will almost surely never
absolutely know
the answer. But, I also do not believe that we should willy-nilly trust
Occam's Razor on this one.
WEKI does, indeed, leave the breeding grounds very early, with most
individuals having left Colorado before September - they do NOT conduct their
Pre-Basic
molt here (though some juveniles initiate that molt here). In fact, all of
the WEKIs that I have handled in late Aug and Sep (very small, though that
number is) have been juvs. The adults leave even earlier.
I would not be surprised to find that WEKIs conduct a molt migration in which
it leaves the breeding grounds heading to who-knows-where, initiates the
Pre-Basic, and then continues to the winter grounds. A few other western
species
do this (e.g., Bullock's Oriole) and these species are all ones that leave the
breeding grounds very early.
Unfortunately, we do not know whether the NY bird is in active molt, has
suspended molt, or has completed molt and simply retained six feathers (that we
know of) from its previous feather generation. Answering this question would
be
important to determine whether the bird "thinks" that is has reached its
winter quarters or will be departing on its own volition.
Aren't out-of-place birds grand? They enable us to speculate, with little in
the way of hard data, about so many phenomena! At the risk of starting a
fire storm, someone needs to catch the dang thing! Having the bird in hand
would
provide needed hard data.
Later,
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
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Subject: Re: NY Kingbird
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 21 Nov 2003 2:55pm
At 02:11 PM 11/21/2003 -0500, Shaibal Mitra wrote:
>To my eye, the retained outer rectrices on the NY kingbird appear
>truncate, indicating an AHY bird. See fig. 169 in Pyle (p. 254), and
>compare Willie’s shot of the upper tail (Angus’ fig. 4) and Kurt’s
>excellent shot of the undertail. Even these retained feathers do not
>resemble juvenal rectrices.
I would agree, and suggest it is an adult female.
>... To my eye, p6 appears notched (inappropriate for juv kingbirds) and
>the visible portions of p7-10 appear very narrow (much narrower, for
>instance, than the greater alula)—again inappropriate for juv kingbirds,
>and too extensively narrow for adult Tropical, Couch’s, or Cassin’s.
I don't think p6 is notched, nor do I think the primaries are all that
narrow, but rather the feathers are deflected down from the angle of the
camera and are somewhat foreshortened. P9 and 8 are facing the camera well
and show their full width; p7 starts to angle away and look too narrow, and
p6 and p5 are completely foreshortened (they should be wider than the other
more distal primaries). Regardless, p6 in Western Kingbird is neither
notched nor narrow, especially not in female or young birds. In no
kingbird specimen that I looked at was p6 narrower than p7, and in Western
Kingbirds p6 started to get substantially wider.
I have put some specimen photos and a couple of Wille D'Anna's wing shots
(rearranged and labled) at
<http://magpie.ornith.cornell.edu/crows/kingbirds.htm>. In both shots, p10
is short and p6 is relatively long. You can judge which species they most
resemble for yourself.
Oh, and everything I looked at on Scissor-tailed Flycatcher looked pretty
much like Western, only more so (p10 very long, p6 much shorter and
wide). Nothing on the wings or tail (other than the deep fork) is helped
by considering Scissor-tail ancestry. I have the photos, but they're not
up there yet.
A couple of other points for which I took photos that haven't made it to
the page yet:
Western Kingbirds do frequently have white on the base of the inner vane of
the outermost tail feather (about half our specimens; tiny spot only), and
even occasionally have a spot of white on the 5th rectrix too (about a 10th
of the specimens). Also, the very tip of the outer vane of the outer
rectrix can be dark.
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: NY kingbird and Gambell mystery photo
From: Paul Lehman <lehman.paul(AT)VERIZON.NET>
Date: 21 Nov 2003 3:31pm
IDFrontiers:
I'd like to just make a fairly basic observation about some November
Western Kingbirds and talk a bit about the mystery bird in the photo
from Gambell Alaska, also posted on IDFrontiers.
First the kingbird: I have seen November Western Kingbirds here in the
East that were somewhat brighter yellow below than birds seen in spring
and summer, and the yellow seemed to extend slightly farther up the
breast than "usual." Otherwise they seemed pretty typical Westerns in
regards to the uppermost breast, throat, head pattern, tail, and bill
size. One such bird also had a molting tail, with the white outer edge
to the tail only visible on one side and the tail showing a bit of a
central notch (a result, we believed at the time, of missing/truncated
central tail feathers). This latter bird was identified as a
Tropical-type Kingbird by a local birder, so we immediately chased it
and found that it was just this somewhat "odd" Western. The bird's back
was greenish-gray and the dark-gray patch through the eye was certainly
distinct, but not as much as in Tropical.
The mystery bird in the photo taken by a local resident at Gambell,
Alaska, in mid-August this year remains a mystery, having received a
wide variety of votes: from everything from a Kiskadee/Social-type
flycatcher to Siberian Accentor to Red-breasted Nuthatch, with some
runner-ups being a variety of Ficedula flycatchers, Yellow-throated
Bunting, and a few others. The bill size/shape seems wrong for accentor
(and certainly for Kiskadee), and the head pattern isn't quite right for
the accentor. The observer thinking the back was some sort of reddish
would eliminate Red-breasted Nuthatch and Social Flycatcher, but perhaps
he was mistaken (?). No other details or photos are available. The
bottom line seems to be that it remains unidentified, and it is
uncertain how much we think we are seeing in the one, single photo might
be an artifact of said photo (such as bill shape). But please feel free
to keep those votes and comments coming!
--Paul Lehman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: NY Kingbird Age and Plumage
From: Shaibal Mitra <mitra(AT)mail.csi.cuny.edu>
Date: 21 Nov 2003 5:16pm
Hi again,
I find Tony’s comments fascinating--that even active banders in the West rarely
or never catch AHY WEKI. This tends to confirm my suspicion that adults of this
species are rarely seen in fresh plumage north of the border.
I also appreciate Kevin’s comments in support of my interpretation of rectrix
shape and age—and his different interpretation of the spread wing. Although I
agree that foreshortening is an issue here, I still feel that the shapes of the
primaries resemble AHY WEKI more closely than they do adult Tropical, Couch’s,
or Cassin’s—or juvs of any of these species. Part of our disagreement on this
issue might be semantic. If not ‘notched’ per se (like a FT Fly primary), p6 of
AHY WEKI is at least depicted as narrowing more abruptly, and farther from the
tip than that of any juv kingbird (Pyle p. 261-262, figs. 176 + 178). Perhaps
the resemblance of the NY bird’s p6 to that depicted for AHY WEKI is an artifact
of foreshortening, but let’s all agree:
if this bird is AHY, the tips of p7-9 are completely inappropriate for Tropical,
Couch’s, and Cassin’s, whereas they at least seem to resemble those of AHY
WEKI;
if this bird is HY, the rectrix shape would be mind-boggling for any
kingbird—including (especially?) ST Fly.
My question for readers with access to collections remains: how do the central
rectrices of the various species look when absolutely brand-new? In the case of
WEKI, most of us have probably never seen such feathers, and the place to look
would be on specimens collected on the winter grounds around this date.
Yes, the outer tail feathers look too long and p10 looks too short for WEKI.
Readers have identified suites of characters inappropriate for EVERY species,
and for the most likely hybrid combo. Shouldn’t the next steps be to agree on
the age and plumage-state of this bird, and to revisit our pool of reference
material accordingly?
Best,
Shai
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject:
From: Paul Larkin <paullarkin(AT)PGEN.NET>
Date: 22 Nov 2003 12:28pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Dear Al,
Perhaps a UK perspective on "Greenland" and "European" WFG might be of =
use. Firstly Greenlands are rare in the UK away from their usual =
wintering grounds e.g. to the best of my knowledge there have been only =
a couple of documented records in Kent UK since the '50s and we are only =
300 miles from the usual winter quarters, this does not prevent vagrancy =
of course.
I was lucky to find a group a few years ago and these were my =
impressions.
1. Bill and leg colour was not very useful as such because pinks and =
oranges I found difficult to distinguish. However it was apparent that =
the bill was the similar in colour to the legs which was not the case =
with European.
2. The Greenlands were very dark with almost no contrast with the belly =
bars in some birds. This was especially noticeable with the chest and =
lower neck which showed no contrast with the head and belly.
3. The pale edgings to the feathering on the back showed very little =
contrast this made the whole bird similar in colour to the Canada Geese =
that they were with, it also made the flank line look very white and =
contrasty.
My birds were not with EWFG but even so were obvious because of their =
overall dark appearance. How such birds would compare to east Siberian =
birds I do not know although there are many photos in Oglvie and Young's =
Photographic Guide to Wildfowl.
For what it is worth I would have said from what I can see of the photos =
the birds in question look more like EWFG. The bill looks different in =
colour to the legs and the breast looks noticeably pale but as we know =
photos can be difficult.
Hope this helps.
Paul
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that =
counts can be counted" A. Einstein
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Subject: Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 22 Nov 2003 8:11pm
The New Brunswick gull appears to be a Lesser Black-backed Gull, or
possibly a hybrid Lesser Black-backed Gull x Herring Gull, going into
its 4th winter. The bill pattern is typical of many LBBGs in 3rd and
4th winter but rarely matched by sub-adult Herring Gulls (in North
America at least). Typically a veil of black, individually variable in
intensities and often transparent, over the basal two thirds of the bill
with the outer third being adult-like yellow with the red gonydeal spot.
Smithsonianus of the same age tend to retain a thick black subterminal
band around the bill which partially or completely obliterates the red
gonydeal spot.
Other Lesser Black-backed Gull features exhibited by this bird are: the
thin bill with a sloping culmen; head streaking being slightly more
prominent about the eye and relatively small head with docile facial
expression.
In field the bird may have looked as large as the Herring Gulls. In all
the photos where there are other gulls for comparison, it looks like a
small Herring Gull in size. There is an overlap in size of male Lesser
Black-backed Gull and female smithsonianus.
If it were not for the pink legs I am sure this bird would have been
passed off as ordinary Lesser Black-backed Gull. There should be a good
yellowish tinge to the legs in a 3rd winter Lesser Black-backed Gull.
Maybe the legs of some pure Lesser Black-backed Gulls turn pink in
winter. A suspect hybrid Lesser Black-backed Gull x Herring Gull that
was present as an adult for 12 consecutive years April – October at
Renews, Newfoundland had pale yellow legs in spring and summer and dull
pink legs in fall.
I think the source of Lesser Black-backed Gulls in North America is
still largely Iceland. The breeding population in Iceland has exploded
in the last couple of decades to some 20,000 pairs. They all leave in
the winter. That means 40,000 adults and lots of juveniles and probably
good numbers of one to three year old birds migrate from Iceland every
late summer and early fall. It is about time they discovered North
America as a wintering grounds. It seems only a matter of time before
they decide they can breed here too, but the long migration to northern
latitudes (N65°) must be a hard habit to break. It has basically been
only 20-25 years since Lesser Black-backed Gull has become routine in
North America. It is inconceivable that the dramatic increase of Lesser
Black-backed Gulls on our side of the Atlantic Ocean could be attributed
to North American breeders already!
The growing number of suspected hybrid Lesser Black-backed Gull x
Herring Gull in North America suggests individual Lesser Black-backed
Gulls are sticking behind in North America and interbreeding with
Herring Gulls. Perhaps a few lucky lingerers find one of their own
species to set up territory with.
In Newfoundland some large Herring Gull colonies are monitored by the
Canadian Wildlife Service. Other colonies are viewable by birders. So
far no adult Lesser Black-backed Gulls have been seen in a Herring Gull
breeding colony in Newfoundland. Very few adults are seen in June and
July. One apparent adult was present regularly on a small sandbar at
Biscay Bay, NF from July 10 to October 2003. The plumage was immaculate
adult but the legs even in July were dull yellow possibly indicating not
sexually active. Sub-adults are routine in small numbers throughout the
summer. The earliest date for a juvenile in Newfoundland is August 25
with only a few others in the first half of September. There is a
definite influx of all ages starting in mid September.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
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