ID-FRONTIERS for November 23-30, 2003

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: Western Kingbird or is it?   Marshall Iliff    Sun, 23 Nov 2003   10:53am   Thayer's Gull bill color   Steven Mlodinow    Sun, 23 Nov 2003   12:58pm   Re: Thayer's Gull bill color   Glenn A dEntremont    Sun, 23 Nov 2003   5:59pm   Re: mystery gull from new brunswick   John Pogacnik    Sun, 23 Nov 2003   7:19pm   Re: Thayer's Gull bill color   Robert Lewis    Sun, 23 Nov 2003   7:49pm   Re: Thayer's Gull bill color   Bruce Mactavish    Sun, 23 Nov 2003   7:55pm   Egretta alba modesta   =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricar   Mon, 24 Nov 2003   11:16am   LBBGs with pink feet was Re: Mystery Gull from New Brunswick, Canada   Joseph Morlan    Mon, 24 Nov 2003   3:15pm   Ross's Goose bill characteristics   James F. Flynn Jr.   Mon, 24 Nov 2003   9:28pm   Additional details on the unknown bird from Gambell, AK   Will Russell    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   7:27am   Eastern occurrences of "Taverner's Canada Goose"   Ian Mclaren    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   8:10am   Re: Eastern occurrences of "Taverner's Canada Goose"   Keith Arnold    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   8:35am   Re: Eastern occurrences of "Taverner's Canada Goose"   Kevin McGowan    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   9:00am   Re: Western Kingbird or something else?   David Sibley    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   9:13am   Re: Western Kingbird or something else?   Noel Wamer    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   11:00am   Re: Eastern occurrences of "Taverner's Canada Goose"   Ian Mclaren    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   12:50pm   Northern Fulmar with a mostly black bill   Mike Patterson    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   1:33pm   Slaty-backed Gull ID   Chris    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   5:40pm   Canada Goose Races   Steven Mlodinow    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   8:50pm   Re: Slaty-backed Gull ID   Robert Lewis    Tue, 25 Nov 2003   9:36pm   unsubscribe   Jean-Marc Lustrat    Wed, 26 Nov 2003   1:43am   Kingbird photos   Kevin McGowan    Wed, 26 Nov 2003   8:15am   some interesting new books   Robert Lewis    Thu, 27 Nov 2003   10:53am   Press release AERC   Marnix Vandegehuchte   Sun, 30 Nov 2003   5:01pm

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'. This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

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Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or is it?
From: Marshall Iliff <Miliff(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 23 Nov 2003 10:53am

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ID-Frontiers,

I am a late comer to this discussion and have spent several hours over past
couple days now getting up to speed on the discussion and theories that have
been proposed on this bird.

To me, the photos by Matt Victoria look very much like Tropical/Couch's,
again, based mostly on bill size and extent of yellow on underparts. The back
color looks too olive for Western. The bright yellow underparts look to bright
for
Western and the mask looks too bold. Based on the first two sets of photos,
the only strong point I see against Tropical/Couch's is the lack of an olive
chestband separating the yellow from the gray.

I am surprised that discussion has been entirely limited to expected North
American species. There are two additional species of yellow-bellied kingbird
in
the world: White -throated (T. albogularis) and Snowy-throated (T.
niveigularis). Give the wide range of options presented in the ID-Frontiers
discussion,
and given that every option seems to be a bit of a round peg in a square hole,
I am doubly surprised that neither of these two species have been mentioned.

I should preface the below comments by saying that I have never seen either
White-throated or Snowy-throated (although I have seen all North American
kingbirds many times each).
My South American library is essentially limited to Birds of Colombia (Hilty
1986; both species), Birds of Ecuador (Ridgely and Greenfield 2001; both
species) and Birds of Venezuela (Hilty 2003; White-throated only). As South
American guides dealing with 1000+ species each, none treats these species in
much
detail, and certainly only touches on the basics of separating them from each
other and Tropical Kingbird. To paraphrase all three though, Tropical,
White-throated and Snowy-throated are all extremely similar to Tropical, and the
 latter
two differ from Tropical primarily in lacking the olive chestband.
Snowy-throated apparently is less likely to show an olive back (which the NY
bird shows)
and both should be paler headed with a stornger mask than Tropical Kingbird.
Both should show whitish throats (which the NY bird seems to show).

Voice is not well described in the three references I have. That of
White-throated Kingbird is said to be like Tropical Kingbird (Hilty and Brown
1986,
Hilty 2003), but are "higher, thinner, and delivered faster, hence soud squeaky
(Hilty 2003). Snowy-throated is described as a "thin twittering" (Hilty and
Brown 1986) or "shorter and direr than comparable calls of Tropical Kingbird,
including a sharp "kip!" that can be extending into a "kip! krr-ee-ee-ee"...
(Ridgely and Greenfield 2001). Given this, the described call seems closer to
Snowy-throated (or Western or Couch's or Scissor-tailed) than Tropical or
White-throated.

On geographical probabilty White-throated seems like the obvious choice.
Snowy-throated is limited to the Pacific slope of the Andes from sw. Colombia
to
sw. Peru; it seems not to under much seasonal movement. In fact, it might be
discounted by unliklihood alone. White-throated Kingbird, on the other hand,
breeds primarily in Bolivia, e Peru, and Amazonian and se Brazil , and possibly
spottily to Surinam, w Guyana, and se Venzuela. It is recognized as an austral
migrant, and has strayed at least to Colombia and Ecuador. Hilty (2003)
suggests a regular aurtal migration "across w Amazonia reaching e Peru, e
Ecuador,
andse Colombia; s Venez. (?)". Those austral migrant species that have reached
the United States (Variegated Flycatcher, nominate Fork-tailed Flycatcher,
Brown-chested Martin) are also eastern South American species, have occurred
primarily in the eastern United States, and have occurred primarily on our fall
(the austral species' spring -- thus their _second_ migration). A
White-throated
Kingbird reaching the United States seems entirely possible, if not an
eventuality. Identifying it would surely be a challenge though.

The voice of the NY bird seems to me to be the biggest open question. Matt
Victoria describes the voice as a loud "WICK!", but kingbird voices have
confused people before. Tropicals can give single "pip" notes prior to uttering
their
diagnostic trill, and people unfamiliar with Western, Couch's, and Tropical
may not instantly hear the difference (tropical is much higher and less
forceful). Couch's and Western can give pretty similar sounding "WICK!" notes to
 my
ears, and I don't think that the "WICK!" note of Couch's is necessarily burry
sounding the "Breeer" of "wick-breeer" certainly is burry sounding). Given
that, as far as I have seen, only one observer has heard and described the
voice,
and I find it hard to give much weight to that single description. It would be
_extremely_ desirable to get a recording. I would be surprised if patience
and occasional tape-playing (try Couch's, Tropical, and Western) did not elicit
a response.

My references are no help regarding primary formula (the discussion on this
vein thus far has not reached any concensus as far as I can tell). I have
little comment on tail molt and whether a pure kingbird could show a tail shape
such as that shown (especially dramatic on latest photos by David Fox), but
would
hasten to point out that an odd molt pattern for Northern Hemisphere birds
may be more expected for a South American species. Could a juvenile be molting
in an adult tail in a northern hemisphere bird? How about a southern hemisphere
bird? I don't see how we can say _anything_ about those tattered outer
rectrices except that they are old and tattered.

I do not totally know what to make of the latest round of photos by David
Fox: the obvious white on the outer rectrix should confirm Western Kingbird as
one parent, but the white on the outer two rectrices adds to the mystery.

I have trouble understanding how Scissor-tailed Flycatcher holds up as one
parent species given that this NY bird shows 1) a larger bill than either
parent
2) bright yellow underparts probably brighter than Western Kingbird 3) a more
olive back than Western Kingbird 4) pale edged central rectrices not shown by
either proposed parent 5) no pink/salmon on the underwings. The recent David
Fox photos certainly show a strongly notched/graduated tail but given that the
central rects are obviously new and the outers obviously old, I don't
understand fully why this could not be the result of an odd molt pattern. Too
much is
wrong with this combination to give it further thought, in my opinion.

If both South American species do not match this bird, then I think the best
remaining option is considering Western Kingbird as one parent and
Tropical/Couch's as the other. This would explain the appearance of a large
bill, pattern
of both central and outer rectrices, and the chest pattern with extensive
yellow (=Tropical/Couch's) but no olive chestband between the gray and yellow
(=Western).

In the end, I do not think White-throated (or Snowy-throated) Kingbird is a
particularly viable option, but would really like someone with more experience
to address the question. If put on the spot, I would favor Western x Couch's
Kingbird.

Best,

Marshall Iliff

***********************
Marshall Iliff
miliff(AT)aol.com
Costa Mesa, CA
************************

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Subject: Thayer's Gull bill color
From: Steven Mlodinow <SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 23 Nov 2003 12:58pm

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Greetings All

Yesterday, I had two ad. basic Thayer's Gulls at a city park, providing
unusually good looks. So, I lingered. One striking character was that the base
of
both birds bills were gray green, turning to bright yellow only from at the
gonydeal angle and beyond.

I looked at some Thayer's Gulls in Mike Shepherd's website
www.birdinfo.com/ThayersGull_image.html
and these looked similar, at least in basic.

A sample size of only about 5. But something to think about.

Glaucous-winged Gulls and their hybrids have all yellow bills. So, for those
rare gulls that leave one wondering GW hybrid or Thayer's, this mark might be
helpful. I also wonder if it might be useful in Thayer's vs. Kumlein's. I'd be
interested to hear from eastern birders about ad basic Kumlein's bill color.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
Everett WA
SGMlod(AT)aol.com

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Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull bill color
From: Glenn A dEntremont <gdentremont(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 23 Nov 2003 5:59pm

"Kumlien's" usually have yellow bills; perhaps not as bright as alternate
plumage.

Perhaps this is something consistant.  Below is my write-up of an adult
Thayer's (the only one I have seen) regarding the bill.  Seems like
Steven's.

        Glenn
************************************************************
The bird’s bill was smaller and thinner than Herring, but slightly longer
and thicker than Kumlien’s.  The base to three-fourths out was a
greenish-yellow, almost an olive color.  There was a red spot on the
lower mandible which continued as a much darker color (deep
brown/blackish brown) onto the upper mandible.  The spot was more or less
triangular with the pointed end terminating on the upper mandible.  This
spot divided the bill and the color on the outer portion was yellowish
(see photos 1,3).
************************************************************

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:58:48 EST Steven Mlodinow <SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM> writes:
> Greetings All
>
> Yesterday, I had two ad. basic Thayer's Gulls at a city park,
> providing
> unusually good looks. So, I lingered. One striking character was
> that the base of
> both birds bills were gray green, turning to bright yellow only from
> at the
> gonydeal angle and beyond.
>
> I looked at some Thayer's Gulls in Mike Shepherd's website
> www.birdinfo.com/ThayersGull_image.html
> and these looked similar, at least in basic.
>
> A sample size of only about 5. But something to think about.
>
> Glaucous-winged Gulls and their hybrids have all yellow bills. So,
> for those
> rare gulls that leave one wondering GW hybrid or Thayer's, this mark
> might be
> helpful. I also wonder if it might be useful in Thayer's vs.
> Kumlein's. I'd be
> interested to hear from eastern birders about ad basic Kumlein's
> bill color.
>
> Cheers
> Steven Mlodinow
> Everett WA
> SGMlod(AT)aol.com

Glenn d'Entremont
gdentremont(AT)juno.com
Stoughton, MA


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Subject: Re: mystery gull from new brunswick
From: John Pogacnik <jpogacnik(AT)ADELPHIA.NET>
Date: 23 Nov 2003 7:19pm

I photographed a "pink-legged" lesser black-backed gull in Lorain, Ohio in
December 2001.  A link to one of the pictures can be found at
http://www.aves.net/birdnews/past01-02-2001.htm under the Sat. 6 Jan. 2001
listing.  As I remember the mantle color, degree of head streaking, bill
color and shape, and overall shape were right on for a normal lesser
black-backed gull.  It just had pale pink legs.  Unfortunately I didn't get
any pictures with the wings spread.

John Pogacnik
4765 Lockwood Road
Perry, OH 44081
440-259-2751
jpogacnik(AT)adelphia.net


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Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull bill color
From: Robert Lewis <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 23 Nov 2003 7:49pm

On Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 02:58  PM, Steven Mlodinow wrote:

> Greetings All
>
> Yesterday, I had two ad. basic Thayer's Gulls at a city park,
> providing unusually good looks. So, I lingered. One striking character
> was that the base of both birds bills were gray green, turning to
> bright yellow only from at the gonydeal angle and beyond.
>
> I looked at some Thayer's Gulls in Mike Shepherd's website
> www.birdinfo.com/ThayersGull_image.html
> and these looked similar, at least in basic.

The adult Thayer's that I've seen during winter or early spring have
had this sort of bill.  Maybe that's not saying much, as they have all
been in the East, maybe a dozen.  The one photo I have was taken in
April, and that bird was moving into breeding plumage,
http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/Thayers/Thayers.JPG

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY


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Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull bill color
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 23 Nov 2003 7:55pm

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The greenish base to the bill of typical adult Thayer's Gulls in winter
was noted by Howell and Elliot in Identification and Variation of Winter
Adult Thayer's Gulls, in ALULA (Vol. 7, No. 4).  The basal 2/3 of the
bill of adult Kumlien's Gull is usually yellow, the same or only
slightly duller than the yellow culmen ridge (the slope at the end of
the upper mandible).  But individuals with varying shades of dull yellow
and greenish in the basal 2/3 of the bill contrasting with the bright
yellow culmen are frequent.

Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steven Mlodinow
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 4:29 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thayer's Gull bill color

Greetings All

Yesterday, I had two ad. basic Thayer's Gulls at a city park, providing
unusually good looks. So, I lingered. One striking character was that
the base of both birds bills were gray green, turning to bright yellow
only from at the gonydeal angle and beyond.

I looked at some Thayer's Gulls in Mike Shepherd's website
www.birdinfo.com/ThayersGull_image.html
and these looked similar, at least in basic.

A sample size of only about 5. But something to think about.

Glaucous-winged Gulls and their hybrids have all yellow bills. So, for
those rare gulls that leave one wondering GW hybrid or Thayer's, this
mark might be helpful. I also wonder if it might be useful in Thayer's
vs. Kumlein's. I'd be interested to hear from eastern birders about ad
basic Kumlein's bill color.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
Everett WA
SGMlod(AT)aol.com

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Subject: Egretta alba modesta
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricard_Guti=E9rrez?= <gutarb(AT)TERRA.ES>
Date: 24 Nov 2003 11:16am

Hello

Last 7. November 2003 we saw and videograbed an odd Great White Egret
(Egretta [=Ardea, =Casmerodius] alba) at Llobregat delta, Barcelona, NE
Spain. It diferred from other 2 'regular' winter plumaged E.alba alba by
having a complete black bill plus entire reddish legs. It was also a bit
smaller and apparently a bit slender-necked.

Initially it was believed to be a summer-plumaged bird as here in Spain
these plumaged birds are rare (only 4 breeding pairs, c.180 km S from where
the bird was) and even the small breeding population does show only for a
brief period (june) the breeding plumage.

However, according to literature, E.alba alba does not show entire reddish
legs. And obviously not in winter. And, besides, there are similar claims,
rare but they exist, of birds like ours elsewhere in Europe in
autumn-winter. See galleries at AERC website (Association of European
Rarities & Records Committees) http://www.aerc.be

Since there appear to be structural differences between the ssp modesta and
nominate alba but I think there is a chance of some irregularities in the
physical condition of a bird that could make it believe that autumn is
spring (then alterring moult pattern, some own winter sightings of
summer-plumaged Black Terns Chlydonias niger could suggest this too), I
wonder if anyone could give a look at the vidcaps I've obtained from the
original videocapture to say something on this bird. Comparing with those
featured in the AERC website is also interesting.

The vidcaps are at http://www.rarebirdspain.net And I've managed to add as
well a link to the whole videosequence, of 5,1 Mb which is in wmv (windows
media video) format, downloadable perhaps for future reference.

Looking forward to any comment, because we have no particular conclusion
already established, given we're not certain about the degree of variation
of feet colour in breeding 'alba' as well as significance of the structural
features outlined in the video. Any 'modesta' would be a first for Spain.

Thanks for your help

Ricard Gutiérrez
http://www.rarebirdspain.net


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Subject: LBBGs with pink feet was Re: Mystery
         Gull from New Brunswick, Canada
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 24 Nov 2003 3:15pm

This thread has piqued my curiosity about the possibility of pure Lesser
Black-backed Gulls with pink legs. Is this a feature of 3rd-year birds
only, or do some adults show it under certain circumstances?

I have posted a few shots of a presumed Lesser Black-backed Gull, taken by
Kanae Hirabayashi at Montrose (near Chicago) last February:

http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/Photos/LBBG11072.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/Photos/LBBG11049.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/Photos/LBBG11073.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/Photos/LBBG11058.JPG

I queried the photographer who sent the following images showing just the
feet with no photoshop adjustment:

http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/Photos/DSCN11049.legsJPG.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/Photos/DSCN1072legs.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/Photos/DSCN11058legs.JPG

He said that some of the pink color might be from reflection off the snow,
but also stated that such birds are not particularly uncommon in his area.
Here is another bird taken in the same area:

http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/Photos/LBBGDscn1119.jpg

...which also seems to me to have pinkish, rather than yellow legs and
feet.

I am struck by the superficial similarity between these birds and a
possible Slaty-backed Gull from California here:

http://www.geocities.com/placerbird/BealsPoint.htm

I'm convinced the Beals Point bird is not a Vega Gull, but I am not
completely convinced it's a Slaty-backed.  I appreciate that these birds
may not all be identifiable from the photos, but seek informed opinion on
the Chicago and California birds.

Thanks in advance.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
California Birding & new rarities http://fog.ccsf.org/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/


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Subject: Ross's Goose bill characteristics
From: "James F. Flynn Jr." <jim.flynn(AT)MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: 24 Nov 2003 9:28pm

Hi, folks, while there is a break in the gull action and while we are still
discussing geese, I am soliciting opinions on what the "acceptable" amount
of a grin patch that a Ross's Goose may possess.

Today (Mon., 24 Nov 2003), a small white goose, in almost all respects a
Ross's from the photos taken by Earl Horn that I have seen, was discovered
in a park northeast of Atlanta, Georgia, by Karen Theodorou.  Ross's Geese
have become a more or less expected species during the late fall in the
state, and a couple have even taken up year round residence.  The species
was even removed from the "review" list by the GOS Checklist and Records
Committee a few years ago.

As a result, the increase of Ross's Goose reports have not undergone
committee scrutiny the last few years, just as a number of puzzling
Ross's/Snow individuals have appeared.  This latest goose may fit into that
category, but in a search through the ID Frontiers archives on the subject
of Ross's X Snow Goose hybrids, a few people implied (or stated) that a
limited grin patch may occasionally appear on Ross's, assuming all other
characteristics, like size, head shape, bill size/shape, and contour of
feathering where the bill meets the cheek are consistent with Ross's Goose.

So, back to my original request, I have posted two of Earl's photos of the
immature goose that was discovered today by Karen.  I would like to know
whether the bill characteristics of this individual appear to be in range
for Ross's, or if this may have some Snow ancestry.  I haven't spoken to
Karen, but Earl noted that the bird is quite small and appears to be a
Ross's with the exception of the small grin patch (compared to generous use
of black lipstick on the scowl of a Greater Snow Goose).  Earl did note that
the bill seemed slightly long for a Ross's as well.

The URL for the photos are as follows:
http://tinyurl.com/wfhn
http://tinyurl.com/wfhw

Take care.

Jim Flynn
Forsyth Co., GA
******************
http://www.gos.org
******************


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Subject: Additional details on the unknown bird from
         Gambell, AK
From: Will Russell <willrussell(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 7:27am

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Following is a note from the photographer, Chris Koonooka, about the =
unknown Gambell bird.

"I didn't see too much of the bird as it kept flying to and fro. It =
never=20
stayed in one spot for more than four seconds, and this shot was taken=20
at one of the times it landed in the open and enough time to take a=20
really quick picture, that's the reason for the blurryness. It landed in =

the most uncommon areas such as a nail on the side of a wooden=20
projection. The back of this bird was reddish and that was the only=20
thing I noticed of the bird when it flies, and the only other site of=20
the bird I had was this picture. I would say this bird was around 5=20
inches long. Other than that, it was a hard bird to watch."

As in the previous post, please forward comments to Paul Lehman ( =
lehman.paul(AT)verizon.net )

WCR

Will Russell
will(AT)wingsbirds.com (office)
willrussell(AT)comcast.net (home)
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Subject: Eastern occurrences of "Taverner's Canada Goose"
From: Ian Mclaren <iamclar(AT)dal.ca>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 8:10am

All:

I am trying to sort out for a writeup the tangled status of Branta
canadensis taverneri,which is possibly the least well characterized and
understood of the subspecies. An apparent individual of taverneri occurred
mid-October in Halifax, NS. It was with a flock of B.c. pavipes (unusual
enough here). There was a breakout of strong, mid-continent, zonal airflow
preceding the arrival.

Many will know that B. c. taverneri has been claimed in recent years in
Ireland and Scotland, and a well-debated one turned up in Texas in
January 2000 (see extensive coverage at:

                http://www.martinreid.com/cago.html

Ours was aringer for Martin's bird.

A variety of small Canada Geese (with which Taverner's fits genetically)
have been claimed in eastern N. Am., among which hutchinsii obviously
predominates (although a couple of photos I've seen are more likely
parvipes). I know of at least one claim of minima, although it's a
favorite in collections.

Does anyone know of any records of taverneri from the US-Canada eastern
seaboard (or reasonably close states - I'm leaving that vague)? Of course
it would be usuful to have published or web sources or personal contacts
for these.

Answer me directly or, if it's felt worthy, start a discussion here.

Ian A. McLaren, PhD                             e-mail iamclar(AT)Dal.Ca
Professor Emeritus                              Phone (W) 902-494-2565
Biology Department                              Fax 902-494-3736
Dalhousie University                            Phone (H) 902-429-7024
Halifax, NS  B3H 4J1


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Subject: Re: Eastern occurrences of "Taverner's Canada
         Goose"
From: Keith Arnold <kaarnold(AT)TAMU.EDU>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 8:35am

Ian:

We have two Texas specimens of this subspecies:
   TCWC No. 8070, 12 Jan. 1969 from Waller Co., near Brookshire [from a group of
 10 birds confiscated because the "hunter" shot them from a road and, of course,
 because he exceeded the limit!] .  John Aldrich ID'd this bird
   TCWC No. 10295, Jan 1977 from Irion Co.  ID'd by comparison to toher material
 in our collections, including no. 8070.

Keith Arnold
Professor, Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences
Curator of Birds, Texas Cooeprative Wildlife Collections
Texas A&M University
2258 TAMU
College Station, TX 77843-2258
Telephone: 979-862-3285; facsimile: 979-845-3786

>>> Ian Mclaren <iamclar(AT)dal.ca> 11/25/03 09:10AM >>>
All:

I am trying to sort out for a writeup the tangled status of Branta
canadensis taverneri,which is possibly the least well characterized and
understood of the subspecies. An apparent individual of taverneri occurred
mid-October in Halifax, NS. It was with a flock of B.c. pavipes (unusual
enough here). There was a breakout of strong, mid-continent, zonal airflow
preceding the arrival.

Many will know that B. c. taverneri has been claimed in recent years in
Ireland and Scotland, and a well-debated one turned up in Texas in
January 2000 (see extensive coverage at:

                http://www.martinreid.com/cago.html 

Ours was aringer for Martin's bird.

A variety of small Canada Geese (with which Taverner's fits genetically)
have been claimed in eastern N. Am., among which hutchinsii obviously
predominates (although a couple of photos I've seen are more likely
parvipes). I know of at least one claim of minima, although it's a
favorite in collections.

Does anyone know of any records of taverneri from the US-Canada eastern
seaboard (or reasonably close states - I'm leaving that vague)? Of course
it would be usuful to have published or web sources or personal contacts
for these.

Answer me directly or, if it's felt worthy, start a discussion here.

Ian A. McLaren, PhD                             e-mail iamclar(AT)Dal.Ca 
Professor Emeritus                              Phone (W) 902-494-2565
Biology Department                              Fax 902-494-3736
Dalhousie University                            Phone (H) 902-429-7024
Halifax, NS  B3H 4J1


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Eastern occurrences of "Taverner's Canada
         Goose"
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 9:00am

At 11:10 AM 11/25/2003 -0400, Ian Mclaren wrote:
>All:
>
>I am trying to sort out for a writeup the tangled status of Branta
>canadensis taverneri,...
>
>A variety of small Canada Geese (with which Taverner's fits genetically)
>have been claimed in eastern N. Am., among which hutchinsii obviously
>predominates (although a couple of photos I've seen are more likely
>parvipes). I know of at least one claim of minima, although it's a
>favorite in collections.

I would caution all observers to consider another option for small geese in
eastern North America, namely of runted interior geese.  Apparently adult
body size is dependent upon the quality of forage available while the goose
is growing.  If forage is poor, the goose stays small.  With the boom in
Snow Geese populations, as well as some Canadas, increasing numbers of
Arctic breeding areas are becoming poor foraging places.  The implication
to me is that they will be turning out more and more runted geese.

For a paper giving the details, see Leafloor, J.O., C.D. Ankey, and D.H.
Rusch.  1998. Environmental effects on body size of Canada Geese. Auk
115:26-33.

An excellent documentation of this phenomenon can be found at
<http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/rouge_river/goose.html>, which shows an
obviously small dark goose with larger Canadas that had come from one of
these areas in the south of Hudson's Bay.

A recent New York goose further illustrates this problem.  John Haas had a
noticeably small banded goose in eastern New York that might have gone down
as hutchinsii (photographs can be seen at
<http://community-2.webtv.net/vanhaas/SmallbandedCanada/index.html>;).  He
read the band and posted the following:

" The Bird Band
Lab has sent me a certificate indicating that the bird is of this years
hatch and was banded (# 078-17100) on August 7th prior to being able to
fly.  It was banded in Kangirsuk, Quebec.  I checked with an on-line map
finder and found that Kangirsuk is located just south of Hudson Strait
and just west of Payne Bay in north eastern Quebec.  According to
Sibley, this is out of range of any of the small Canada geese.  Thanks
to all of those who expressed interest.   John Haas"

This would be just northeast of Hudson's Bay.

So it seems that little geese are being environmentally created, and they
may be indistinguishable from some of the "real" small forms.  I suspect
that the dramatic increase in sightings of "Richardson's Geese" in New York
is the result of an increase in these runt forms, not a shift in migration
patterns of true Richardson's Geese.  The problem is, how will we ever know?

Kevin

*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: David Sibley <david_sibley(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 9:13am

Having entered a "from-the-hip" volley in the kingbird discussions last
week, I am pleased to follow up with a more thoroughly-researched and clear
posting. It is still a fascinating bird and has been a great learning
experience. Thanks again to Angus for hosting, and to Kevin McGowan, Chris
Benesh, Alvaro Jaramillo, and others for very insightful postings in this
lively discussion.

Yesterday I was able to go to the Museum of Vertebrate Zoology at Harvard
University (thanks to the University and to Jeremiah Trimble). The
collection there has an excellent series of all the species involved in this
discussion, and I spent a couple of hours looking at them.

First of all, I want to address the tail of the mystery kingbird. It is
obviously long and deeply forked. This is not the result of molt, but is the
actual shape of the tail with fully grown feathers. There is a vanishingly
small chance that an abnormal molt pattern with unbelievable symmetry could
create such a tail shape, but a normal molt pattern would replace central
feathers first, thus having the central feathers full grown while outer ones
were still growing, and the left and right feathers of each pair would grow
at different rates or begin on different days to create a messy, ragged
shape. What we see clearly in the photos is a neatly forked tail with each
pair of feathers matching in length.

Another point against the theory that the bird is in active molt with
feathers still growing is that the feathers should be, well, growing. It
takes 2-3 weeks for a typical tail feather to grow, growing several
millimeters a day. So, if they were growing when the photos were taken,
those central tail feathers should have reached their full length within
just a few days, changing the tail shape. I'm guessing that the bird still
looks essentially as it did on November 9th when discovered.

The pattern of the tail provides important clues as well. There is clearly a
white outer web on the outermost feather, as shown by Western Kingbird and
Scissor-tailed but no other. Kurt Fox's photo of the spread tail from above
shows how much white there is on the 2nd from outermost feather- the width
of the outer web appears white for half its length (wrong for Western and
all other kingbirds.except Scissor-tailed). Other photos show a prominent
white edge on the outer webs of the outer 3 tail feathers (even more wrong
for Western and other yellow kingbirds).

Another key point is shown in the 4th photo in Kurt Fox's series showing the
spread tail from below  -
http://home.eznet.net/~kfox/wny/weki/tyrannus.htm -
there appears to be white on the inner web of the outermost tail feather,
extending completely across the base of this feather. In other photos I
believe this white is concealed by shadows or by the undertail coverts.

It would be nice to have more photos confirming this white, but even without
that, the forked shape of the tail and the presence of white on the outer
webs of three outer tail feathers effectively rule out any known species of
kingbird. There are a number of other more or less subtle points that rule
out one species or another, but I think these two are the "biggies".

Just a quick summary of some of the other points that are wrong for
Tropical/Couch's: gray breast (not yellow-olive), blackish central tail
feathers (not dark brownish), white on outer tail feathers (should be none).

and the points wrong for Western: white throat (should be grayish),
contrasting whitish edges on all coverts and secondaries (should be very
narrow and inconspicuous fringes), pale edges on all tail feathers (all
except outermost should be all black), brownish outer tail feathers, and
short tenth primary.

I'm ignoring the bill size, dark mask, and shade of yellow below as I think
these are too subtle and unreliable to judge. The head appears paler gray
than any of the yellow kingbirds, tending towards the very pale of
Scissor-tailed, but this is simply a suggestion, not a definitive point. I
should also point out that the tail appears too long for Western or
Tropical/Couch's.

Therefore a hybrid, as unlikely as that seems, becomes the most likely
choice.

The deeply-forked tail and the extensive white on the outer tail feathers
can only come from Scissor-tailed, so I am starting with the assumption that
that species is one of the parents. The other parent then must be one of the
yellow-bellied kingbirds.

The first guess for a most-likely parent was Western Kingbird, since that
species is similar to the mystery bird, has opportunity to hybridize, and
has a record of hybridizing. Of the two published descriptions of apparent
Western Kingbird X Scissor-tailed hybrids pointed out in previous messages
here, both describe fairly similar birds. Both had tails just a little
longer than the average Western Kingbird and shorter than any
Scissor-tailed, deeply forked, with extensive white on the outer feathers.
In fact both had the outermost tail feathers white on at least the basal
half (much more than the NY bird). The two differ significantly in the shade
of yellow on the underparts. The Texas bird is described as having the
underparts pale yellow, like Western Kingbird but much paler, while the
Oklahoma bird is described as having the underparts "Trogon yellow" tinged
with "pale orange yellow" on the sides. This is the color one might expect
from a mixture of the yellow of Western Kingbird with the salmon orange of
Scissor-tailed, and matches pretty well with the photos of the NY bird,
right down to the brighter color on the sides. There is tremendous variation
in the extent and intensity of salmon color on the underparts of
Scissor-tailed, so this might help explain the variation in hybrids, but
such variation is expected.

Several points that have been mentioned as contrary to this hybrid cross are
actually explainable. The bright yellow underparts, as described above, can
result from a combination of the colors of the two proposed parents
(although it would really be nice to see the Oklahoma specimen instead of
relying on descriptions). The brownish outer tail feathers contrasting with
new blackish central tail feathers are a feature of first-winter
Scissor-tailed flycatchers. And as I've said before I'm putting very little
emphasis on the bill size.

However, several other points do not match up with the proposed Western
Kingbird X Scissor-tailed hybrid. Nothing in this combination explains the
prominent pale fringes on the central tail feathers or the rounded wingtip
with p10 shorter than p6. The central tail feathers of Western Kingbird are
always solid black, and on Scissor-tailed there can be a very thin pale
fringe, but not as prominent as on the NY bird. The wingtip of
Scissor-tailed flycatcher is even more pointed than Western Kingbird, and a
hybrid of these two species should have a long 10th primary and a pointed
wingtip.

The possibility that the other parent was a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird has
been suggested in previous messages, now I'm willing to make the statement
that a hybrid Scissor-tailed X Tropical/Couch's kingbird is the most
plausible identification and the best fit for the observed characteristics.
Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds are virtually identical in appearance, and
there is nothing here to suggest one over the other. Both have pale fringes
on all tail feathers, and both have rounded wingtips with short p10. These
are two key points that were not explained by the Western Kingbird parent,
and are easily explained by a Tropical/Couch's parent. In addition, this
combination makes it easier to explain the bright yellow underparts, the
brownish outer tail feathers, and, yes, the large bill. The only point I can
think of that needs explanation now is the gray breast (where
Tropical/Couch's should be olive) but this is easily accounted for by the
gray-white breast of Scissor-tailed.

This combination has never been reported before to my knowledge, but there
is certainly opportunity, as both Tropical and Couch's have been expanding
their ranges northwards in recent years.

Some other miscellaneous notes: The bird is in its first fall. All of the
species involved have very narrow and pointed primary tips as adults. Some
more than others, but the primary tips visible in the photos are clearly
juvenal plumage. The tail molt - with central feathers replaced - can occur
in all but occurs only in the first molt, not in adults. Interestingly,
Scissor-tailed flycatchers that replace tail feathers grow new feathers that
are blacker AND LONGER than the old ones.

Also interestingly, on the subject of Western Kingbird molt, the Harvard
collection includes a relatively small number of fall and winter specimens,
and only two birds in active molt. One is from Mexico in late September and
is molting wing coverts and body feathers, the other is an aberrant bird
from Massachusetts in January that is molting tail feathers. Otherwise the
specimens are all worn and faded birds from summer through August, and
bright fresh birds from November through March. It seems that they must be
molting in Sep-Oct, but where they molt is an interesting question. This
explains why the late fall birds seen on the Atlantic Coast are brighter
yellow below than early fall birds. Adults and immatures are virtually
indistinguishable.

Another question I've always wondered about is whether wear can eliminate
the white outer web of Western Kingbird tail. One specimen here - from
California in May - is the only one (of 200 or more) with the white almost
completely worn off. Many other birds from the same month and through the
summer still have nearly intact white edges, so the loss of the white edge
is abnormal, but possible. The feathers also looked frayed and faded,
brownish around the edges.

Still a fascinating bird. I look forward to more discussion

David Sibley


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Western Kingbird or something else?
From: Noel Wamer <nwamer(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 11:00am

Those following this thread might want to look at the message posted today
on the Genesee Birding list...
http://server1.birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/GENE.html#1069683712

An observer played recordings of Western, Cassin's, and Couch's in the
vicinity of the kingbird..  According to the observer the bird did not
respond to the recordings of Western and Cassin's, but it responded
actively to the Couch's recording.  Apparently Tropical and Scissor-tailed
vocalizations were not used.  Hmmmm.

Noel Wamer


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Eastern occurrences of "Taverner's Canada
         Goose"
From: Ian Mclaren <iamclar(AT)dal.ca>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 12:50pm

Kevin et al.:

Thanks, Kevin, for raising that issue, of which I was aware - including
the banded Rouge River example. However, I don't believe that RR goose was
quite on the scale of some of the small, dark geese that have turned up in
Eire/UK or now, here. In size, they may approach parvipes (but not
quite??) and in darkness they might resemble interior (darker than the
local atlantica).

Another factor in the NS and TX sightings is the association with parvipes
(but not overseas, where atlantica, but not parvipes - except in Norway -
have been claimed). It seems less likely that a whole flock of
parvipes-sized Canadas, among which a smaller, darker one appears,
appears, would represent eastern-arctic dwarfism. Also, the extreme
darkness of some small geese, plus presence of a wide black gular stripe
(characteristic of western Canadas) noted in the TX, European, and now NS
birds, don't seem to fit the possibilities for dwarfed interior.

Still, all these things have to be thought about more. There is also the
possibility of mis-mating among subspecies, which appears responsible for
spreading nuclear alleles and possibly some intermediacy of phenotypes
throughout. Despite this, the genetic heritage of mtDNA is maintained,
by being carried back faithfully to the natal grounds by the
less-prone-to-wander females. (This is of course the basis for
European decisions to split the Canadas, although the situation does
seem peculiar even by phylogenetic species concepts). Might a small,
dark eastern bird be the product of such a
mating?

Cheers, Ian

Ian A. McLaren, PhD
e-mail iamclar(AT)Dal.Ca            Professor Emeritus
Phone (W) 902-494-2565
Biology Department                              Fax 902-494-3736
Dalhousie University                            Phone (H) 902-429-7024
Halifax, NS  B3H 4J1


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Northern Fulmar with a mostly black bill
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 1:33pm

As many of you have probably already heard, there has
been a higher than average Pacific storm related fatality
rate in Northern Fulmars this year.  David Bailey was surveying
along Gearhart Beach, Clatsop Co. Oregon 11-23-2003 and reported
a black-billed bird which I went out and re-found (presumably)
for photographs this morning.

I have seen a lot of dead fulmars (including several 100
in the past month) and don't recall ever seeing one this
black.  I thought folks who do pelagic stuff might be interested.

http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/temp/nofu20031125.html

--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com

You've got to accentuate the positive
        eliminate the negative
        latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr. In-Between.
                                        - Johnny Mercer

http://www.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/bird.html


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Slaty-backed Gull ID
From: Chris <cmichener(AT)RENC.IGS.NET>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 5:40pm

Hi Birders,

Here's a gull that has been at the local landfill south of Pembroke in
Eastern Ontario, Canada for about 2 weeks.  From the research I've done in
the guides and online, I'm calling it a Slaty-backed Gull which is changing
from 1st summer to 2nd winter plumage.  I find aging this bird a bit of a
problem, but that's my guess.

Some ID points:
- the bill is mostly black but has pale area around the nostril coming in.
It seems yellowish but may a have a pink tint, also;
- the size of the bird was the same and/or slightly smaller than the
Herring Gulls, but not longer;
- dark gray scapulars and mantle feathering coming in;
- white wing coverts with a pinkish brown spotting/colouring;
- pale pink legs and feet;
- dark eye;
- dark gray mottling separating flank from belly and breast mottling (which
I don't understand);
- white underwing primaries, except for gray tips, and white secondaries on
underwing, causing the whole underwing to have a white trailing edge;
- dark brown primaries when at rest, dark brown tail with thin outer white
edge;
- The combination of these features seem to set this bird aside from any
other gull I've met.  Is it possible I've aged it wrongly or is it a
hybrid?

I have a few images on the Pembroke Area Field Naturalists web site for
some still images captured with video:
http://www.renc.igs.net/~cmichener/pafnhtml/SBGU.html

So, I only want to hear confirming news, ...just kidding!  I love the
mystery.  Please let me know if you have any other ideas what we may have
here.

Sincerely,
Chris Michener, Golden Lake, Ontario.
cmichener(AT)renc.igs.net
_______________________________________________________
Some online references to the species:
Ulihala, Osao. 2003. Japanese Gull Site. Japan
http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gullidentifi_.htm

Shepard, Michael. G. 2003 North American Bird Information Web Site.
http://www.birdinfo.com/Slaty-backedGull_2002-09-11.html#003

Hampton, Steve, Don Desjardin. 2003 Hampton's Quiz bird #7.
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/quiz7.htm

Hampton, Steve, Don Desjardin. 2003 Slaty-backed Gull (schistisagus)
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/schi_d.htm
________________________________________________________


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Canada Goose Races
From: Steven Mlodinow <SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 8:50pm

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Greetings All

A study was recently published looking at ID of Dusky vs. Moffitti (Great
Basin) Canada Geese. The "Gold Standard" was genetic. They found that using
standard techniques (bill size and breast color) that a fairly low percentage
of
Dusky Geese were successfully ID'd (about 2/3 as I recall). Using multivariate
analysis, including about 10 features, the success was increased to 90 or 95%,
but still wasn't perfect. I couldn't locate the article in a quick search, but
could if someone really wants the reference.

To me this suggests that certain ID to race is extremely difficult, if not
actually impossible in some cases.

Taverner's Geese seem to fill the void between Cackling and Lesser Canadas,
and many may not be completely separable from one or the either of these forms
(depending where in the spectrum the individual falls).

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
Everett WA

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Slaty-backed Gull ID
From: Robert Lewis <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 25 Nov 2003 9:36pm

On Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 07:29  PM, Chris wrote:

> Hi Birders,
>
> Here's a gull that has been at the local landfill south of Pembroke in
> Eastern Ontario, Canada for about 2 weeks.  From the research I've
> done in
> the guides and online, I'm calling it a Slaty-backed Gull which is
> changing
> from 1st summer to 2nd winter plumage.  I find aging this bird a bit
> of a
> problem, but that's my guess........................
> _______________________________________________________
> Some online references to the species:
> Ulihala, Osao. 2003. Japanese Gull Site. Japan
> http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gullidentifi_.htm
>
> Shepard, Michael. G. 2003 North American Bird Information Web Site.
> http://www.birdinfo.com/Slaty-backedGull_2002-09-11.html#003
>
> Hampton, Steve, Don Desjardin. 2003 Hampton's Quiz bird #7.
> http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/quiz7.htm
>
> Hampton, Steve, Don Desjardin. 2003 Slaty-backed Gull (schistisagus)
> http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/schi_d.htm
> ________________________________________________________

   There are several pages on my web site with Slaty-back images:

Allen Chartier's Gulls of Japan
Peter Post's Gulls from Siberia
Slaty-backed Gull in Ontario.

http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/gulls.html

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: unsubscribe
From: Jean-Marc Lustrat <jm_lustrat(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 26 Nov 2003 1:43am

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Kingbird photos
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 26 Nov 2003 8:15am

I have my recent photo pages at the permanent URLs (below).  Please DO NOT
USE the ones I listed before (with "magpie" in the name).  I shouldn't have
put them there.

Photos of the Livingston Co., NY kingbird (probably a Couch's X
Scissor-tailed hybrid, in my mind) are at
<http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/KingGen.htm>

Photos of specimens of yellow kingbirds are at
<http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/kingbirdsX.htm>

Photos of the Ithaca Dickcissel are at
<http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/dickcissel.htm>

As always, these can be reached from the Bad Photos of Good Birds page at
<http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/brdphoto.htm>

Kevin

*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: some interesting new books
From: Robert Lewis <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 27 Nov 2003 10:53am

Gull watchers,

    I just came across the following forthcoming book announcements:

Claudia  Wilds & Joe DiCostanza.    Terns & Skimmers. Pica Press,
forthcoming 2003.

Ted Hoogendoorn.  Gulls. 280 pages.  Pica Press. Forthcoming.

See http://worldtwitch.virtualave.net/pica.htm

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Press release AERC
From: Marnix Vandegehuchte yucom <marnix.vandegehuchte(AT)YUCOM.BE>
Date: 30 Nov 2003 5:01pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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ASSOCIATION OF EUROPEAN RECORDS AND RARITIES COMMITTEES

Press Release 1 December 2003

AERC TAC's Taxonomic Recommendations
Please find on http://aerc.be/aerc_tac.htm the latest taxonomic =
recommendations of the Taxonomy Advisory Committee of the AERC.

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