ID-FRONTIERS for February 1-7, 2004

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Gyrfalcon x Barbary Falcon - Toronto, Ontario   Jean Iron    Sun, 1 Feb 2004   6:56am   Possible Thayer's Gull in Newfoundland   Jean Iron    Sun, 1 Feb 2004   9:16am   Re: Possible Thayer's Gull in Newfoundland   Phillip Pickering    Sun, 1 Feb 2004   10:50am   Hybridization in Doves   Jeff Wilson    Sun, 1 Feb 2004   6:40pm   Possible "Nelson's" Gull?   Dave DeReamus    Mon, 2 Feb 2004   2:16am   Photos of possible Dove Hybrid   Jeff Wilson    Mon, 2 Feb 2004   8:16am   More gulls from Holland   Norman D.van Swelm   Mon, 2 Feb 2004   10:58am   Renton GBBG comment   Steve Hampton    Mon, 2 Feb 2004   12:19pm   Re: More gulls from Holland   Killian Mullarney    Mon, 2 Feb 2004   2:05pm   Re: More gulls from Holland   Millington/BIS    Mon, 2 Feb 2004   2:23pm   Re: More gulls from Holland   Martin    Mon, 2 Feb 2004   2:56pm   Re: More gulls from Holland   Martin    Mon, 2 Feb 2004   2:59pm   Re: Renton GBBG comment   Phillip Pickering    Mon, 2 Feb 2004   4:02pm   Re: More gulls from Holland   Harry Lehto    Mon, 2 Feb 2004   4:08pm   Another possible "Nelson's" Gull   Steve McConnell    Mon, 2 Feb 2004   6:18pm   Re: More gulls from Holland   Tim Vaughan    Tue, 3 Feb 2004   1:21pm   Re: Another possible "Nelson's" Gull   Steve Hampton    Tue, 3 Feb 2004   4:53pm   Re: Photos of possible Dove Hybrid   Kenn Kaufman    Wed, 4 Feb 2004   12:35pm   Long-billed Murrelet article   Ian Paulsen    Wed, 4 Feb 2004   3:42pm   Re: Photos of possible Dove Hybrid   Ben Coulter    Wed, 4 Feb 2004   4:41pm   Photos Needed for Gulls of the Americas   Will Russell    Wed, 4 Feb 2004   7:27pm   Iowa Gull   Aaron Brees    Thu, 5 Feb 2004   9:35am   Re: Iowa Gull   Peter Adriaens    Thu, 5 Feb 2004   10:45am   Re: Iowa Gull   Phillip Pickering    Thu, 5 Feb 2004   11:04am   Re: Iowa Gull   Steve Hampton    Thu, 5 Feb 2004   4:49pm   Re: Iowa Gull   Phillip Pickering    Thu, 5 Feb 2004   6:03pm   Re: Iowa Gull   Martin Reid    Fri, 6 Feb 2004   6:01am   black-backed wagtail re-lump?   Ian Paulsen    Fri, 6 Feb 2004   6:07pm   Re: black-backed wagtail re-lump?   Joseph Morlan    Fri, 6 Feb 2004   8:54pm   unsuscribe   Jean-Sébastien Rouss   Sat, 7 Feb 2004   4:05am   Re: black-backed wagtail re-lump?   Vladimir Dinets    Sat, 7 Feb 2004   10:07am

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'. This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

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Subject: Gyrfalcon x Barbary Falcon - Toronto, Ontario
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 1 Feb 2004 6:56am

We have new information from a reliable source about the identity and
origin of Toronto's mystery falcon, which was seen in January. It is a
hybrid Gyrfalcon x Barbary Falcon. It is a juvenile female that escaped
while being moved to a transport crate for export.

It was first identified as a Prairie Falcon. Based on photos, it was
thought most likely to be a possible hybrid Gyrfalcon x Saker Falcon.
Others suggested that it was a Gyrfalcon x Peregrine, pure Gyrfalcon,
Tundra Peregrine, Introduced Peregrine, etc. You can see photos of this
falcon on Jean's website via her signature below.

The Barbary Falcon is closely related to the Peregrine Falcon, but is
smaller and less bulky with a narrower moustachial streak. It is native to
northern Africa and the Middle East.

Ron Pittaway
Minden and Toronto

Jean Iron
http://www3.sympatico.ca/jeaniron/
9 Lichen Place
Toronto ON  M3A 1X3
416-445-9297


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Subject: Possible Thayer's Gull in Newfoundland
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 1 Feb 2004 9:16am

Last week a possible Thayer's Gull was seen in St. John's, Newfoundland. We
are interested in comments about its identity. Please see four photos of
it: http://www3.sympatico.ca/jeaniron/Thayersgull.htm

Jean Iron and Ron Pittaway

Jean Iron
http://www3.sympatico.ca/jeaniron/
9 Lichen Place
Toronto ON  M3A 1X3
416-445-9297


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Subject: Re: Possible Thayer's Gull in Newfoundland
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 1 Feb 2004 10:50am

Looks fine (presume male by bulk). Only minor issues that might keep
it from being a classic dark Thayer's would be slight smearing in the
lesser/median covert patterning, and the pattern fading into a solid
background on the outer greater coverts, but those things aren't
necessarily that uncommon in my experience. In the top two standing
photos it also shows some secondary skirt which isn't typical,
but that's probably more of a posture issue in those photos. In
the bottom photo it appears to show none.

Combination of bill size and shape, head shape, proportionately
large, forward-placed eye, contrastingly paler eye arcs, juvenile
anchor scapular pattern fully retained in late January, contrastingly
pale maler feathering, long primary projection, attenuated rear,
rounded primary tips, and obvious pale inner edge to the primary
stack are definitive. Main potential imposter in this case would
be a small Herring x Glaucous-winged, but I don't see anything
at all to suggest that possibility (presumably remote anyway).

I also don't see anything about the patterning or shape to suggest
it's not far towards the Thayer's end of the Thayer's/Kumlien's
spectrum.

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com

> Last week a possible Thayer's Gull was seen in St. John's, Newfoundland.
We
> are interested in comments about its identity. Please see four photos of
> it: http://www3.sympatico.ca/jeaniron/Thayersgull.htm
>
> Jean Iron and Ron Pittaway


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Subject: Hybridization in Doves
From: Jeff Wilson <OLCOOT1(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 1 Feb 2004 6:40pm

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Jan. 31, 2004
Memphis, TN

I'm looking for any information on possible hybrid, Eurasian Collared-Dove /
Mourning Dove. I photographed a dove exhibiting details of both species.
Because of the aggressive nature of Eurasian Collared-Doves the possibility
does
not surprise me, even though they come from different genus.

If this bird is not part Mourning Dove, then is part Passenger Pigeon;o)

I'll put together a page of photos on this bird and make it available ASAP.

I'd be interested in any info, photos or thoughts.

Good Birding!!!

Jeff R. Wilson
OL'COOT / TLBA
Bartlett, TN

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Subject: Possible "Nelson's" Gull?
From: Dave DeReamus <becard(AT)FAST.NET>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 2:16am

Hi all (especially the Larophiles),

I'm ashamed to even post these photos because they're really poor, but I
would really appreciate any opinions that can be derived from them since
they're the only ones I managed to get of what I believe is a "Nelson's"
Gull that was in eastern PA on January 20th.  Since I have never seen one of
these before, I would like to know if someone could confirm it, or blow me
out of the water if I'm all wet (no pun intended).

The not-ready-for-magazine photos can be found on this page of my Website:
http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/index10.html

And, don't run out and get new glasses; it's the photos that are blurry.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.  As always, thanks for your help
in advance.

Good Birding,

Dave DeReamus
Compiler of the 'Eastern PA Birdline'
Easton, PA
becard(AT)fast.net
Eastern PA Birding Website:  http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/index.html


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Subject: Photos of possible Dove Hybrid
From: Jeff Wilson <OLCOOT1(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 8:16am

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Chatters,

Here is a web site where I have put a few photos showing details of a mystery
dove I photographed here in Memphis, TN on 1/31/04. I just got back last
night and put this site together in a hurry. It is my first attempt with this
new
web site so I hope everything works.

The bird was perched among some Eurasian Collared-Doves but behind a fence
line and with terrible lighting due to noonday sun. Even from these poor
photos,
I think you can still see why the bird is very remarkable. I have more photos
which I'll share if they show more details but have been out of town as usual
birding over the weekend so they will have to wait. I'm interested in
comments from others.

http://www.pbase.com/ol_coot/eucdmodo

Good Birding!!!

Jeff R. Wilson
OL'COOT / TLBA
Bartlett, TN

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Subject: More gulls from Holland
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 10:58am

Martin Reid has been so kind (again!) to make some of my pictures available
to you, see:

http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp41.html

Both gulls were photographed on 16th December at Westkapelle, SW
Netherlands. They are, I think, Kumlien's Gulls however their mantle shade
seems darker than nominate Iceland Gull and this is where, according to
Malling Olsen cs. Thayer's comes in. One of the pictures shows that the
mantle shade equals that of North European Common Gulls L.c.canus and that
it is paler than West European Herring Gull L.a.argenteus. I have seen
photographs of New Foundland Kumlien's which seemed to have similar dark
mantle's. For the record, the shrunken (winter) eye ring is red. Please let
me know your opinion. Kumlien's or Thayer's, both are new for the Low
Countries!
Norman


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Subject: Renton GBBG comment
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 12:19pm

All, I thought I'd forward this on from Jon R. King, who just got a
chance to look at some of the photos of the Renton bird:
________________________________________________________

Hi Steve,

This looks like a straightforward, unremarkable GBBG to me. It's
toward
the paler end of the spectrum on the upps, but still comfortably
within
the range of variation they show. Structurally it's prefect, and I see
nothing to suggest it's any type of hybrid. Great record.

Feel free to share these comments wherever appropriate (with due
acknow.).

Thanks for links and the opportunity to comment.

Cheers, Jon.
________________________________________________________

Steve Hampton
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax


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Subject: Re: More gulls from Holland
From: Killian Mullarney <kmullarney(AT)EIRCOM.NET>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 2:05pm

Hi Norman  et al,

Interesting shots, but to me, neither bird looks 'right' for a true
Kumlien's Gull (or for that matter a Thayer's). The perched bird has too
much the demeanour of a (small) Herring Gull, though of course I realise
this is a very subjective assessment. Incidentally, I believe the shade of
the grey upperparts are definitely too dark for Kumlien's or Thayer's;
though occasional photographs suggest that these two can sometimes be as
dark as this, it is invariably when they have been photographed against an
icy-white background which, as you well know I'm sure, can create a
significant photographic exposure trap and produce misleading results. The
shade of grey on your perched bird, as well as the reduced black in the
outer primaries looks OK for a Herring Gull of 'northerly' origin.

If previous discussions are anything to go by, I guess you will not be at
all inclined to agree with anyone who suggests these birds are more likely
to be herring-type gulls than Kumlien's/Thayer's, so please forgive me
Norman if I decide now not to waste any further time arguing the case!

Actually - and this is my main reason for responding -  I am more interested
in the adult Herring Gull that is mostly concealed behind the Lesser
Black-backed Gull and Common Gull in the foreground of the one 'group shot'
posted on Martin's page; it appears to have discrete blackish markings on
one of its tertials, something that seems to be very rarely (if ever?)
exhibited by European Herring Gulls, but which can be seen in some
near-adult American Herring Gulls. Have you by any chance additional shots
that show more of this potentially interesting bird?

Regards,

Killian Mullarney

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 5:31 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] More gulls from Holland

> Martin Reid has been so kind (again!) to make some of my pictures
available
> to you, see:
>
> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp41.html
>
> Both gulls were photographed on 16th December at Westkapelle, SW
> Netherlands. They are, I think, Kumlien's Gulls however their mantle shade
> seems darker than nominate Iceland Gull and this is where, according to
> Malling Olsen cs. Thayer's comes in. One of the pictures shows that the
> mantle shade equals that of North European Common Gulls L.c.canus and that
> it is paler than West European Herring Gull L.a.argenteus. I have seen
> photographs of New Foundland Kumlien's which seemed to have similar dark
> mantle's. For the record, the shrunken (winter) eye ring is red. Please
let
> me know your opinion. Kumlien's or Thayer's, both are new for the Low
> Countries!
> Norman
>


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Subject: Re: More gulls from Holland
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 2:23pm

Hi

My guess?
Lesser Black-backed X Glaucous hybrid

cheers
Richard

sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
To: <>
Sent: 02 February 2004 17:31
Subject: [BIRDWG01] More gulls from Holland

> Martin Reid has been so kind (again!) to make some of my pictures
available
> to you, see:
>
> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp41.html
>
> Both gulls were photographed on 16th December at Westkapelle, SW
> Netherlands. They are, I think, Kumlien's Gulls however their mantle shade
> seems darker than nominate Iceland Gull and this is where, according to
> Malling Olsen cs. Thayer's comes in. One of the pictures shows that the
> mantle shade equals that of North European Common Gulls L.c.canus and that
> it is paler than West European Herring Gull L.a.argenteus. I have seen
> photographs of New Foundland Kumlien's which seemed to have similar dark
> mantle's. For the record, the shrunken (winter) eye ring is red. Please
let
> me know your opinion. Kumlien's or Thayer's, both are new for the Low
> Countries!
> Norman
>


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Subject: Re: More gulls from Holland
From: Martin <martin.go(AT)VIRGIN.NET>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 2:56pm

Great photos Norman,

 In my opinion Your birds are clearly towards the whiter end of argentatus
 (Scandinavian or Northern) Herring Gulls. I do not think they are Kumlien's
 or Thayer's Gulls.

 Cheers Martin Garner

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
To: <
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 5:31 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] More gulls from Holland

> Martin Reid has been so kind (again!) to make some of my pictures
available
> to you, see:
>
> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp41.html
>
> Both gulls were photographed on 16th December at Westkapelle, SW
> Netherlands. They are, I think, Kumlien's Gulls however their mantle shade
> seems darker than nominate Iceland Gull and this is where, according to
> Malling Olsen cs. Thayer's comes in. One of the pictures shows that the
> mantle shade equals that of North European Common Gulls L.c.canus and that
> it is paler than West European Herring Gull L.a.argenteus. I have seen
> photographs of New Foundland Kumlien's which seemed to have similar dark
> mantle's. For the record, the shrunken (winter) eye ring is red. Please
let
> me know your opinion. Kumlien's or Thayer's, both are new for the Low
> Countries!
> Norman
>


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Subject: Re: More gulls from Holland
From: Martin <martin.go(AT)VIRGIN.NET>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 2:59pm

Great photos Norman,

 In my opinion Your birds are clearly towards the whiter end of argentatus
(Scandinavian or Northern) Herring Gulls. I do not think they are Kumlien's
or Thayer's Gulls.

Cheers Martin Garner

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 5:31 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] More gulls from Holland

> Martin Reid has been so kind (again!) to make some of my pictures
available
> to you, see:
>
> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp41.html
>
> Both gulls were photographed on 16th December at Westkapelle, SW
> Netherlands. They are, I think, Kumlien's Gulls however their mantle shade
> seems darker than nominate Iceland Gull and this is where, according to
> Malling Olsen cs. Thayer's comes in. One of the pictures shows that the
> mantle shade equals that of North European Common Gulls L.c.canus and that
> it is paler than West European Herring Gull L.a.argenteus. I have seen
> photographs of New Foundland Kumlien's which seemed to have similar dark
> mantle's. For the record, the shrunken (winter) eye ring is red. Please
let
> me know your opinion. Kumlien's or Thayer's, both are new for the Low
> Countries!
> Norman
>


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Subject: Re: Renton GBBG comment
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 4:02pm

> Structurally it's prefect, and I see
> nothing to suggest it's any type of hybrid.

My opinion aside, if that were true why would some of those
who are intimately familiar with GBBG have expressed such a low
comfort level with the structure? (both on the list and in personal
comm.) If it were structurally perfect that wouldn't happen, at
least not to anywhere near the extent it has. The series of photos is
excellent, and there's no reason to suspect that they are misleading
anyone.

I bring this up (again, sorry) to amplify the point that there are
both multiple positive and negative opinions out there about
this bird - and it seems that, at least for some in Washington, the
tendency might be to give more weight to the positive and be less
attentive of the negative, when in the case of a potential first state
record such as this the exact opposite should be true. Even if you
don't agree with them, the fact that others who are familiar with
GBBG are questioning it at all should be disconcerting for such an
extralimital bird, particularly if you take seriously Tony Leukering's
argument about intergrades potentially being more prone to
wander out of range than pure birds.

As for myself, in extensive photo study (pushing 300 photos of well
over 200 birds) I have not been able to find a GBBG that shows a
structure similar to the Washington bird. Compared to their body bulk
GBBG seem to invariably have proportionately larger heads, eyes, and
bills, seem to almost invariably be more attenuated in the rear and have
much flatter bellies, and seem to almost invariably have a steeper, less
gradual culmen downcurve. If 200+ birds can be considered an
adequate sample, at the fine level necessary to confirm it IMO as
a whole the bird does not appear to be within the normal structural
range of variation of pure GBBG *at all*. The structure is that odd.
As Alvaro said, it doesn't really fit anything, which for me sounds a
fire alarm that, even though the patterning is close to GBBG, there
is still a very high probability of it being an intergrade.

Respectfully,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com


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Subject: Re: More gulls from Holland
From: Harry Lehto <hlehto(AT)OJ287.ASTRO.UTU.FI>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 4:08pm

Norman,

> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp41.html
Very interesting bird.
In my opinion the wing pattern does not fit one of the Northern pale
Herring Gull-like adults we see here in Finland in March/April, i.e. what
I call "kola type" Herring Gulls. There is something wrong in shape of
the white of the primaries. Kind of too little white say on P9 and P10
and relatively quite a lot of white on P1...about P5, and also
relatively a broad looking white trailing edge to the secondaries.

I feel that you can rule out this option.

Regards
Harry
hlehto(AT)astro.utu.fi


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Subject: Another possible "Nelson's" Gull
From: Steve McConnell <Swmavocet(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 2 Feb 2004 6:18pm

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Here's another "Nelson's" candidate of apparent 1st winter plumage.  It was
found on the Alabama gulf coast about a week ago with a broken leg.

Comments and suggestions would be MUCh appreciated for those of us living
were even a Glaucous is noteworthy.

http://members.aol.com/swmavocet/light_gull1.jpg
http://members.aol.com/swmavocet/light_gull2.jpg
http://members.aol.com/swmavocet/light_gull3.jpg

Steve McConnell
Hartselle, AL

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Subject: Re: More gulls from Holland
From: Tim Vaughan <timvaughan(AT)TALK21.COM>
Date: 3 Feb 2004 1:21pm

Hi all,
I'm intrigued by Norman's photo shown on
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp41.html'> as I immediately concluded that it was
 a Herring Gull L.a.argentatus. Harry Lehto's comments then sowed seeds of doubt
 in mind.  I agree that the white trailing edge to the wing is unusually broad
but similar birds that I have seen at Seaforth, UK I have believed to be
northern Herring Gulls with very limited outer primary pattern. The first of
such birds I came across 15 years ago I did initially consider Kumliens so I can
 understand Norman's musing but I do think that such birds are Herring Gulls -
but then not from where Harry lives.....
Best wishes with gulls,
Tim Vaughan
Seaforth, UK

--------------------
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at
http://www.talk21.com


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Subject: Re: Another possible "Nelson's" Gull
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 3 Feb 2004 4:53pm

This bird from Alabama looks like a classic "Nelson's Gull" to me, at
least it is similar to others I've seen in North America.  Note that
presumed Nelson's from Europe can look very different-- see this bird at
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/nels1.htm for a very
different combination of features.

Your bird looks a lot like a Glaucous, with a Glaucous bill and
Glaucous plumage, except for the darker tertials, outer primaries, and
secondaries.  Also, the tail has this very unique pattern of being more
solid at the base and pale on the outer half.  I've seen this pattern
before on Nelson's and I cannot recall I've ever seen it on anything
else.  Note the structure of the bird is fine for Glaucous and Herring.

Steve Hampton
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax


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Subject: Re: Photos of possible Dove Hybrid
From: Kenn Kaufman <kenn.kaufman(AT)WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Date: 4 Feb 2004 12:35pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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From what I can see on Jeff Wilson's photos, I can't think of any =
plausible explanation other than a Mourning Dove X Eur. Collared-Dove =
hybrid.  I really don't think it could be an extreme variant of either =
of those two species -- its structure and color would be way off for the =
Collared-Dove, while its size and markings and behavior would be bizarre =
for Mourning Dove. =20

I don't know offhand of previous records of this hybrid combination, but =
both of those species have been known to interbreed with various other =
doves in captivity.  Eurasian Collared-Dove is also known to have =
hybridized with the so-called Ringed Turtle-Dove in the "wild"; those =
two are in the same genus but they have major vocal differences. =20

Interesting that this hybrid may have been produced in an area where the =
Collared-Dove is already quite numerous.  I might have guessed that this =
occurrence would be more likely near the edge of the species' expanding =
range, where you're more likely to find a lone Collared-Dove with no =
available mate of its own species.  If they'll interbreed in areas where =
both species are common, we can expect to see this hybrid combination =
again.  Of course, a lot of people don't look at doves very closely.  =
But Jeff Wilson looks at EVERY bird closely.  Good find, Jeff. =20

Kenn Kaufman
Tucson, AZ =20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jeff Wilson=20
  To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
  Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 8:16 AM
  Subject: [BIRDWG01] Photos of possible Dove Hybrid

  Chatters,

  Here is a web site where I have put a few photos showing details of a =
mystery dove I photographed here in Memphis, TN on 1/31/04. I just got =
back last night and put this site together in a hurry. It is my first =
attempt with this new web site so I hope everything works.=20

  The bird was perched among some Eurasian Collared-Doves but behind a =
fence line and with terrible lighting due to noonday sun. Even from =
these poor photos, I think you can still see why the bird is very =
remarkable. I have more photos which I'll share if they show more =
details but have been out of town as usual birding over the weekend so =
they will have to wait. I'm interested in comments from others.

  http://www.pbase.com/ol_coot/eucdmodo

  Good Birding!!!

  Jeff R. Wilson
  OL'COOT / TLBA
  Bartlett, TN
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Subject: Long-billed Murrelet article
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 4 Feb 2004 3:42pm

HI:
 I saw this article in the latest WESTERN BIRDS:

Specimen record of a Long-billed Murrelet from Eastern Washington, with
notes on plumage and morphometric differences between long-billed and
marbled murrelets. Christopher Thompson, Kevin J. Pullen, Richard E.
Johnson, and Eric Cummins. Page 157-168.

The main identification point: "Contrary to many recent publications
stating that long-billed and marbled murrelets have white and brown under
wing coverts, respectively, we confirmed that both species typically have
white under wing coverts prior to definitive prebasic molt and brown under
wing coverts after this molt."

--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"


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Subject: Re: Photos of possible Dove Hybrid
From: Ben Coulter <aeridia(AT)VELOCITY.NET>
Date: 4 Feb 2004 4:41pm

When we had our first county record (2nd for PA, I think) of Eurasian
Collared-Dove a couple of years ago, I heard second-hand that the EUCD,
apparently a male judging by behavior, was seen pursuing and courting a
female Mourning Dove.  The MODO reportedly was giving it the cold
shoulder.  Interesting anecdotal evidence, I thought.

Ben Coulter
Erie Co., PA

Kenn Kaufman wrote:

>
>
> I might have guessed that this  occurrence would be more likely near
> the edge of the species' expanding range,  where you're more likely to
> find a lone Collared-Dove with no available mate of  its own species.
>


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Subject: Photos Needed for Gulls of the Americas
From: Will Russell <willrussell(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 4 Feb 2004 7:27pm

Steve Howell asked if I would repeat his now diminished request for gull
photographs, as follows.

Will Russell

Photos NEEDED for Gulls of the Americas: A Photographic Guide, by Steve N.
G. Howell and Jon Dunn, to be published by Princeton University Press. “In
flight” includes spread-wing (upperwing). Publisher pays $60 for photos
used, plus photographers receive a comp. copy of the book. Please reply to
<ngray(AT)prbo.org> or photos can be sent to Steve Howell, PRBO, 4990 Shoreline
Highway, Stinson Beach, CA 94970.

NEEDED
Grey-hooded Gull L. c. cirrocephalus    1st year in flight.
Ross’s Gull Rhodostethia rosea          Juvenile in flight
Red-legged Kittiwake Rissa brevirostris Juvenile/first winter, adult winter.
Grey Gull L. modestus                   Second “winter” (Mar-Jul).
Olrog’s Gull L. atlanticus                      Adult non-breeding, juvenile,
“first-winter”
(Mar-Aug) “second summer” (Nov-Mar)
Vega Herring Gull L. a. vegae           2nd summer standing & flight, 3rd
summer
standing &      flight.
Iceland Gull L. g. glaucoides           Adult summer, adult winter standing in
profile
Kumlien’s Gull L. [glaucoides] kumlieni fresh juvenile (fall); adult summer,
2nd summer, 3rd summer;

Hybrids:
Glacuous-winged x Herring Gull          Juv/1st winter
Kelp Gull x Herring Gull                        All ages
Slaty-backed x Vega Gull                        Adult
Slaty-backed x Glaucous-winged Gull     Adult

ADDITIONAL GOOD PHOTOS DESIRABLE :
Brown-hooded Gull L. maculipennis       Adult of N population in flight showing
upperwing (Buenos Aires province, Argentina, northward)
Grey-hooded Gull L. c. cirrocephalus    Juvenile
Andean Gull L. serranus                 “first-winter” and non-breeding adult at
 rest
Belcher’s Gull L. belcheri                      Juvenile.
California Gull L. californicus albertaensis    Adult in flight/upperwing
Kelp Gull L. d. dominicanus (South America) Adult “winter” (April-June, S.
Hemisphere)
Yellow-footed Gull L. livens            2nd summer (Apr-Jun)
Glaucous x Herring Gull                 Adult winter at rest
Glaucous-winged x Glaucous Gull                 All ages

Will Russell
will(AT)wingsbirds.com <mailto:will(AT)wingsbirds.com>  (WINGS)
willrussell(AT)comcast.net <mailto:willrussell(AT)comcast.net>  (home)


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Subject: Iowa Gull
From: Aaron Brees <abrees(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 5 Feb 2004 9:35am

Here is another gull for those who aren't tired of them yet.  Several of you
have been kind enough to comment privately on this bird in the past.  The
opinions I recieved were sufficiently interesting, and yet lacking in
consensus, that I thought I would see what a wider audience thinks of it:

http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/birdpics/unk.html

Aaron Brees
Urbandale, IA
abrees(AT)hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN.
http://wine.msn.com/


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Subject: Re: Iowa Gull
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 5 Feb 2004 10:45am

> Here is another gull for those who aren't tired of them yet.  Several of
> you
> have been kind enough to comment privately on this bird in the past.  The
> opinions I recieved were sufficiently interesting, and yet lacking in
> consensus, that I thought I would see what a wider audience thinks of it:
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/birdpics/unk.html
>

Hi Aaron,
a wider audience may often leave you with an even greater lack in
consensus...
As for me, I will stick out my neck saying that this looks like an
American Herring Gull.

Regards,
Peter Adriaens


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Subject: Re: Iowa Gull
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 5 Feb 2004 11:04am

Tired? Never!

What can be discerned of the scap and covert patterning appears
to be prototypical of smithsonianus (at least those that winter on the
west coast), so I don't see a reason it couldn't be an unusually
pale or perhaps not-quite-pure female smith. If there is hopefully
someone will share it with the list.

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com

> Here is another gull for those who aren't tired of them yet.  Several of
you
> have been kind enough to comment privately on this bird in the past.  The
> opinions I recieved were sufficiently interesting, and yet lacking in
> consensus, that I thought I would see what a wider audience thinks of it:
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/birdpics/unk.html
>
> Aaron Brees
> Urbandale, IA
> abrees(AT)hotmail.com


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Subject: Re: Iowa Gull
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 5 Feb 2004 4:49pm

Presumably, it is the Thayer's-like pattern on the primaries and dark
spots at the tips of the inner primaries that is attracting attention as
a potential Slaty-backed Gull (similar to this bird at
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/schi8b.htm).  Note
that, on Slaty-backed, the inner webs of P4-7 are palest, while the
inner webs of P1-4 are palest on Herring (Pyle, P., Birder's Journal
6(5): 251).  On the Iowa bird, it appears that P3-5 are the palest, but
P1-2 are hard to see.

As Phil points out, the scaps and coverts look perfect for smithson.
Herring Gull, which is clearly the default bird here.  Nearly every
photo I've seen of first year Slaty-backed has them already out of juv
scaps.  Also, the folded primaries usually are paler and with pale
edges.  In short, it's a Herring Gull until proven otherwise, which will
be very tough to do.

Steve Hampton
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax


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Subject: Re: Iowa Gull
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 5 Feb 2004 6:03pm

> Presumably, it is the Thayer's-like pattern on the primaries and dark
> spots at the tips of the inner primaries that is attracting attention as
> a potential Slaty-backed Gull

It might also be the tail pattern. The outermost 1 or 2 rects (at least)
appear to have solid white kind of scalloped into the feather centers,
rather than pale barring extending in from the edges. I think that pattern
might be more typical of S-b than smithsonianus (?)

On closer inspection the structure also looks like it might be a bit
better fit for S-b. Hmm. Perhaps you really could make a case for
one (a very, very young one).

Cheers,

Phil


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Subject: Re: Iowa Gull
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 6 Feb 2004 6:01am

Dear all,
I am presuming that this bird is suspected of being a Slaty-backed
Gull.  For those will minimal experience of this taxon (probably most of
us!) I urge you to spend a good deal of time studying the large numbers of
1W images available at this site:
http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gullidentifi_.htm
  - check the species listing AND the News section for additions since the
species section was updated.

BTW keep in mind that the lone pic of the Iowa gull standing is at an angle
that places the wings in shadow, making it impossible to assess their real
relative tone.

I've just done this, and I think that if the Iowa gull were seen in Japan
in November it would be called a SBGU and not even merit a second
thought.  Does this mean it IS a SBGU?:  no... it's a gull, after all.

There are now some 12 - 20 records of SBGU in North America away from
Alaska zone (maybe more?) and every one of 'em has been an adult or
near-adult bird.  Given that first-winter birds are relatively abundant
within any population (at least from July up to maybe mid-winter) and that
they have a proven proclivity/necessity to wander further than adults, it
would be naive to not realise that we are getting at least this many 1W
birds in North America.  Not only are we unable to ID them, some of them
are being dismissed as smiths and then used as examples of smiths, which
leads to subsequent candidate birds being relegated to the "funny smith" or
"dunno" can, and perpetuating a myth.

Sadly on this individual, the images do not allow a detailed examination of
the critical features - but it certainly appears to be a candidate
SBGU.  For SBGU and smith, many of the juv feather tracts containing
features that we think are good for SBGU are going to still be present by
mid-winter, so it ought to be possible to compare "rates of presence"  of
these features in juvs on the breeding grounds of smith populations, with
the rates observed at major migration/wintering locations.  Until this data
is available, we are merely speculating as to what range of features 1W
smiths can display.

  On the west coast it is made even more confusing due to the known and
speculated amount of hybridization among the various taxa, such that the
observed "rate of presence" of certain SBGU features in non-natal
populations may be exaggerated by hybrid/backcross combinations that can
mimic these features.

Bottom line: I prefer to call this a SBGU-like gull, not a funny
smith.  Either way it remains unidentified, but at least this way it is not
going to be used as a benchmark for smith against which other birds are
measured.
Cheers,

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


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Subject: black-backed wagtail re-lump?
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net>
Date: 6 Feb 2004 6:07pm

HI:
 in the past couple of days I've been reading about relumping the black-backed
wagtail with the white wagtail. Has anyone else heard of this also?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!


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Subject: Re: black-backed wagtail re-lump?
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 6 Feb 2004 8:54pm

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:08:46 -800, Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net>
wrote:

> in the past couple of days I've been reading about relumping the black-backed
wagtail with the white wagtail. Has anyone else heard of this also?

That lump was advocated by Alström & Mild in their "Pipits & Wagtails"
monograph.  Their treatment was based on a Monophyletic Species Concept
rather than on the Biological Species Concept. More recently Gibson et al.
(Western Birds 34:122-132, 2003) following Voelker (Condor 104:724-739,
2002) merged Black-backed Wagtail with the White Wagtail arguing that the
original Russian literature may have been flawed and that molecular studies
show the two taxa are paraphyletic.

An abstract of Voelker is at:

http://www.cooper.org/cos/104_4/104_4abs02.pdf

See also:

http://www.wbkenglish.com/newsitemsjan2003.asp#jun05

It remains to be seen whether the AOU will make a change or wait for
further research.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
Birding Classes begin Feb 3 in SF http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/


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Subject: unsuscribe
From: Jean-Sébastien Rousseau-Piot <jsrp(AT)CARAMAIL.COM>
Date: 7 Feb 2004 4:05am

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Les noms de domaine les moins chers du march=E9 : 6,49 euros HT sur
http://www.lycos.fr/pro .


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Subject: Re: black-backed wagtail re-lump?
From: Vladimir Dinets <v0v04ka(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 7 Feb 2004 10:07am

If you ask me, the case for splitting lugens has never been made well. I refused
 to follow it in my Birds of Russia in the 1990-s, and can now
happily say "I told you so!"
It's interesting how some splits/lumps published in non-English sources are
instantly picked up by international ornitho community, while others
take decades to make their way out of the country of origin. The split of Parus
minor from Parus major is probably the most obvious of all recent
Palearctic splits: the two species occur together throughout Amur River basin,
but one is nomadic and one migratory, and the habitat is different.
But I'm yet to see it even mentioned in any Western publication.