B-Mail(sm): ID-FRONTIERS for February 8-14, 2004

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Subject: Re: black-backed wagtail re-lump?
From: Tony Morris <tonymorris(AT)easynet.co.uk>
Date: 8 Feb 2004 3:02pm

The point about Great Tit (Parus major) is not strictly true. In his
"Tits, Nuthatches and Treecreepers", 1996, published by Helm in the UK
Simon Harrop states under the heading "Geographical Variation",
"a total of 33 races is recognised, divisible into three groups, each
of which is sometimes treated  as a separate species (e.g. Stepanyan
1990). Although there is some intergradation or hybridisation where
the groups meet, with more investigation the best treatment may be to
consider them as three species". He the identifies the differences,
under various headings, of the "Major" group, the "Cinereus" group and
the "Minor" group.
There is a reference on the treatment of the Parus Major group in the
New Howard and Moore Checklist (2003), as there is in Sibley and
Monroe(1990). So the topic has not been completely neglected.

Tony Morris
The Hidden House
28 Kingsdown Road
St Margaret's at Cliffe
Dover
Kent
CT15 6AZ
Tel: 01304851943
Mob: 07966740048
tonymorris(AT)easynet.co.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vladimir Dinets" <v0v04ka(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: 07 February 2004 17:07
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] black-backed wagtail re-lump?

> If you ask me, the case for splitting lugens has never been made
well. I refused to follow it in my Birds of Russia in the 1990-s, and
can now
> happily say "I told you so!"
> It's interesting how some splits/lumps published in non-English
sources are instantly picked up by international ornitho community,
while others
> take decades to make their way out of the country of origin. The
split of Parus minor from Parus major is probably the most obvious of
all recent
> Palearctic splits: the two species occur together throughout Amur
River basin, but one is nomadic and one migratory, and the habitat is
different.
> But I'm yet to see it even mentioned in any Western publication.
>
>

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Subject: RFI: Hybrid Waterfowl Book
From: Steven Mlodinow <SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 8 Feb 2004 4:40pm

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Greetings All

Sorry to bother. There is a book available, as I recall, regarding hybrid
waterfowl. Published in England (or elsewhere in Europe) as I recall.

If anyone can give me info on author/publisher, etc, I'd be most
appreciative.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

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Subject: Re: RFI: Hybrid Waterfowl Book
From: Eran Tomer <etomer(AT)EMORY.EDU>
Date: 8 Feb 2004 5:15pm

Steven,

I believe that this is the book:

Gillham, Eric and Gillham, Barry. HYBRID DUCKS: A CONTRIBUTION TOWARDS AN
INVENTORY. Wallington, B. L. Gillham, 1996. 88 pp. ISBN: 1951155602 (pbk);
0951155602.

This was subsequently updated twice by the same authors:

Updating hybrid ducks: a contribution towards an inventory. Edmunds,
Suffolk : E.H. & B.L. Gillham, 1998, 32 pp.

Hybrid ducks: the 5th contribution towards an inventory. Edmunds, Suffolk
: B.L. Gillham. 2002. 64 pp. ISBN: 0951155660 (pbk.)

Best regards,

- Eran Tomer
  Atlanta, Georgia, USA

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, Steven Mlodinow wrote:

> Greetings All
>
> Sorry to bother. There is a book available, as I recall, regarding hybrid
> waterfowl. Published in England (or elsewhere in Europe) as I recall.
>
> If anyone can give me info on author/publisher, etc, I'd be most
> appreciative.
>
> Cheers
> Steven Mlodinow
>

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Subject: Re: black-backed wagtail re-lump?
From: Vladimir Dinets <v0v04ka(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 8 Feb 2004 8:07pm

Tony,
Yes, I was wrong. But at least I learned something :-)
George Sangster sent me a paper (Kvist at al.) with comprehensive molecular
analysis of all 4 subspecies group. The paper shows that the
genetic distance between them is about the same as between chickadee species.
The authors also show that there is some hybridization
between groups, and conclude that they shouldn't be considered full species if
BSC is strictly applied.
My opinion is that BSC should never be applied that strictly, and that the
hybridization in this case seemes to be suppressed heavily enough to
recognize all 4, or at least all except bokharensis, as full species.

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Subject: Re: RFI: Hybrid Waterfowl Book
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 10:37am

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Hello Steve:  I have two books, or perhaps better described as booklets, on
the subject, both written by Eric and Barry Gillham.  The titles are
"HybridDucks: A Contribution Towards An Inventory" (1996); and "Hybrid
Ducks: The 5th Contribution Towards An Inventory" (2002).   These books are
self-published.  The most recent address of one of the authors is: 90 Church
Road, West Row, Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, U.K.  IP28 8PF.  I bought them
from an on-line book seller in Britain, that is well-known, but since my
favorites list recently crashed, and since I can't remember the name of the
company, I can't tell you which company it was.  I have purchased many books
from them, and they have always been great.  They had to special order the
above-named topics.  Jeff Gilligan.

on 2/8/04 3:39 PM, Steven Mlodinow at SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM wrote:

Greetings All

Sorry to bother. There is a book available, as I recall, regarding hybrid
waterfowl. Published in England (or elsewhere in Europe) as I recall.

If anyone can give me info on author/publisher, etc, I'd be most
appreciative.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

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Subject: Re: RFI: Hybrid Waterfowl Book
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 11:05am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Re: [BIRDWG01] RFI: Hybrid Waterfowl BookHi
If it is of interest, we do list and supply these titles.=20
cheers
Richard
(Books for Birders hat)

sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
(Birding World, Books for Birders & Birdline)
Bird Information Service, Stonerunner, Coast Road,
Cley next the Sea, Holt, Norfolk, NR25 7RZ, UK
Tel. 44 (0) 1263 741139  Fax. 741173=20
Website www.birdingworld.co.uk

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jeff Gilligan=20
  To:=20
  Sent: 09 February 2004 17:31
  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] RFI: Hybrid Waterfowl Book

  Hello Steve:  I have two books, or perhaps better described as =
booklets, on the subject, both written by Eric and Barry Gillham.  The =
titles are "HybridDucks: A Contribution Towards An Inventory" (1996); =
and "Hybrid Ducks: The 5th Contribution Towards An Inventory" (2002).   =
These books are self-published.  The most recent address of one of the =
authors is: 90 Church Road, West Row, Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, U.K.  =
IP28 8PF.  I bought them from an on-line book seller in Britain, that is =
well-known, but since my favorites list recently crashed, and since I =
can't remember the name of the company, I can't tell you which company =
it was.  I have purchased many books from them, and they have always =
been great.  They had to special order the above-named topics.  Jeff =
Gilligan.

  on 2/8/04 3:39 PM, Steven Mlodinow at SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM wrote:

    Greetings All

    Sorry to bother. There is a book available, as I recall, regarding =
hybrid waterfowl. Published in England (or elsewhere in Europe) as I =
recall.

    If anyone can give me info on author/publisher, etc, I'd be most =
appreciative.

    Cheers
    Steven Mlodinow=20

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Subject: Re: RFI: Hybrid Waterfowl Book
From: Bob Douglas <bob(AT)COTSWAN.PLUS.COM>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 11:33am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Re: [BIRDWG01] RFI: Hybrid Waterfowl BookNHBS
  -----Original Message-----
  From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jeff Gilligan
  Sent: 09 February 2004 17:32
  To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] RFI: Hybrid Waterfowl Book

  Hello Steve:  I have two books, or perhaps better described as booklets,
on the subject, both written by Eric and Barry Gillham.  The titles are
"HybridDucks: A Contribution Towards An Inventory" (1996); and "Hybrid
Ducks: The 5th Contribution Towards An Inventory" (2002).   These books are
self-published.  The most recent address of one of the authors is: 90 Church
Road, West Row, Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, U.K.  IP28 8PF.  I bought them
from an on-line book seller in Britain, that is well-known, but since my
favorites list recently crashed, and since I can't remember the name of the
company, I can't tell you which company it was.  I have purchased many books
from them, and they have always been great.  They had to special order the
above-named topics.  Jeff Gilligan.

  on 2/8/04 3:39 PM, Steven Mlodinow at SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM wrote:

    Greetings All

    Sorry to bother. There is a book available, as I recall, regarding
hybrid waterfowl. Published in England (or elsewhere in Europe) as I recall.

    If anyone can give me info on author/publisher, etc, I'd be most
appreciative.

    Cheers
    Steven Mlodinow

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----

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Subject: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Frode Falkenberg <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 2:52pm

Hi all!

A spooky dark-eyed subadult gull superficially similar to a Caspian Gull
was photographed in middle Norway on February 4th. Several features fit
Caspian well(which is a vagrant in Norway), while others doesn't.

Have a look at a series of pictures and some comments at:

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ (9 February 2004)

Further comments are appreciated.

Frode

Department of Biology, UiB
All�gaten 41
5007 Bergen
Norway
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/ 
Cell/SMS: +4793440647

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 3:14pm

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:45:13 +0000, Frode Falkenberg
<falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO> wrote:

>Have a look at a series of pictures and some comments at:
>
>http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ (9 February 2004)
>
>Further comments are appreciated.

Why isn't that a California Gull (Larus californicus)?

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
Birding Classes begin Feb 3 in SF http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 4:53pm

> >http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ (9 February 2004)
> >
> >Further comments are appreciated.
>
> Why isn't that a California Gull (Larus californicus)?

Agreed. Looks absolutely perfect for Cal in all respects
including proportions, bill shape, nape streaking, bill
pattern, right down to the bright red orbital ring. Mantle/
primary contrast is fine for albertaensis. Description of
size is perfect.

This would be a 3rd-winter - Cals tend to be noticeably more
mature in plumage at a similar age than most other (larger)
4-year gulls. The leg pattern is even typical of that age in
winter - kind of a very washed out peach color, with a hint
of pink remaining on the toes and a hint of blue remaining on
the knees.

Wow.

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 7:01pm

The gull is very interesting, but the jizz looks a little "off" for
California Gull as I remember them (I'm on the East coast and so I haven't
seen many in a while!). The head looks too square, the wings too short and
the shape of the dark subterminal bill band may not be typical.

Still, very interesting, and maybe those in the West can add some insight??

Best,

Julian Hough,
CT, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frode Falkenberg" <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 5:45 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Large dark eyed gull mystery

Hi all!

A spooky dark-eyed subadult gull superficially similar to a Caspian Gull
was photographed in middle Norway on February 4th. Several features fit
Caspian well(which is a vagrant in Norway), while others doesn't.

Have a look at a series of pictures and some comments at:

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ (9 February 2004)

Further comments are appreciated.

Frode

Department of Biology, UiB
All�gaten 41
5007 Bergen
Norway
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/
Cell/SMS: +4793440647

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Ross Silcock <silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 8:19pm

While I agree that the bird at http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ (per Frode
Falkenburg) looks like an albertaensis Cal Gull, I agree with Julian that it
looks a bit "blunt-ended" at the rear. Maybe the angle of the photos.  Both
types show up at Lake McConaughy in western Nebraska (californicus breeds
nearby in ne Colorado), but reports from eastern Nebraska, those described
well, are attributable to albertaensis. Moving east is one thing, but as far
as Norway???
Ross

Ross Silcock
P.O. Box 57
Tabor, Iowa, USA  51653
silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com
New Zealand Land and Pelagic Bird Tours
www.rosssilcock.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Hough" <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Large dark eyed gull mystery

The gull is very interesting, but the jizz looks a little "off" for
California Gull as I remember them (I'm on the East coast and so I haven't
seen many in a while!). The head looks too square, the wings too short and
the shape of the dark subterminal bill band may not be typical.

Still, very interesting, and maybe those in the West can add some insight??

Best,

Julian Hough,
CT, USA

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Robert Lewis <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 8:23pm

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 09:01  PM, Julian Hough wrote:

> The gull is very interesting, but the jizz looks a little "off" for
> California Gull as I remember them (I'm on the East coast and so I
> haven't
> seen many in a while!). The head looks too square, the wings too short
> and
> the shape of the dark subterminal bill band may not be typical.
>
> Still, very interesting, and maybe those in the West can add some
> insight??

I don't live in the West, but have seen a fair number in the East over
the years, and this bird looks quite good indeed in all respects, as
Phillip Pickering and Joe Morlan point out.  You may want to compare
the photos on my web site of California Gulls at Cape Hatteras, North
Carolina.

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY

http://www.fordham.edu/lewis/birds/Califor/calif.html

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 8:45pm

Julian and All,

Assuming it is a California and not some incredible intergrade
facsimile (not likely IMO given the leg coloration and apparent size),
it's probably a larger albertaensis-type. Albertaensis are typically
larger-bodied and can have *much* shorter primary projection, and
much more of a square look to the head (although that's not really
how I'd describe this bird) than smaller L. c. californicus types.
I see both "races" (and everything in between) mixed together
annually on the Oregon coast. Jizz seems fine to me for a bird
on the large end of Cal's extremely variable size spectrum. The
far ends of the spectrum next to each other can look like different
species structurally.

The black/red bill pattern looks quite typical for a 3rd-winter (4th
CY). I don't have many photos of large-end Cals handy, but this (age?)
bird at least shows some similarities, including similar head shape,
and a similar if more faded bill pattern -

http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/cal001.jpg

Many California gulls apparently don't have a direct, simple
migration route, moving west to the Pacific first, staging there,
then moving south. Not sure that means a lot, other than some
albertaensis that end up in southern California have traveled
a much longer distance than you would assume. It's hard to say
what such a bird with a messed up sense of direction is capable
of. Stranger things have definitely happened.

Cheers,

Phil

> The gull is very interesting, but the jizz looks a little "off" for
> California Gull as I remember them (I'm on the East coast and so I haven't
> seen many in a while!). The head looks too square, the wings too short and
> the shape of the dark subterminal bill band may not be typical.

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 10:00pm

Caspian would be the Old World gull of choice for a California ringer in
many respects if one went looking, including mantle gray and nearly
identical basic bill pattern and iris color. I agree that this bird greatly
suggests CAGU, but to me it is far too pretty, lacking the usual
short-legged, pot-bellied, long-necked look of CA; and of course an aberrant
cachinnans would be far more likely. The original message was posted late at
night in Norway; it will be interesting to read what the spin from the UK
and the Continent will be on this bird when everyone wakes up.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frode Falkenberg" <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 4:45 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Large dark eyed gull mystery

> Hi all!
>
> A spooky dark-eyed subadult gull superficially similar to a Caspian Gull
> was photographed in middle Norway on February 4th. Several features fit
> Caspian well(which is a vagrant in Norway), while others doesn't.
>
> Have a look at a series of pictures and some comments at:
>
> http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ (9 February 2004)
>
> Further comments are appreciated.
>
> Frode
>
>
> Department of Biology, UiB
> All�gaten 41
> 5007 Bergen
> Norway
> http://cyberbirding.uib.no/
> Cell/SMS: +4793440647
>

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 11:34pm

> Caspian would be the Old World gull of choice for a California ringer in
> many respects if one went looking, including mantle gray and nearly
> identical basic bill pattern and iris color. I agree that this bird
greatly
> suggests CAGU, but to me it is far too pretty, lacking the usual
> short-legged, pot-bellied, long-necked look of CA; and of course an
aberrant
> cachinnans would be far more likely.

For whatever my opinion from photo study is worth, I don't get a
cachinnans feel from this bird at all. Something about the proportional
size of the eye, eye placement, and head and body shape seem off
in a way that doesn't equate to aberrancy. It looks like a different
species in other words. Subjective I know, but it's a consistent
impression.

I also see the short-legged, pot-bellied, long-necked (long-winged)
description of Cal as being typical of L. c. californicus, and wanted
to emphasize again that in my experience larger albertaensis can look
virtually identical to this gull in structure.

That said, yes I'd have to agree that if it is a Cal it would be very
hard to prove beyond any doubt.

Cheers,

Phil

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: David Vander Pluym <SCRE(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 9 Feb 2004 11:37pm

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First I should state that it has been a while since I've seen Caspian or
Armenian Gull.  Personally to me this does not look like a Caspian Gull for the
reasons already mentioned on the page.  Armenian Gull is almost a better match
showing a dark eye and the black on the bill and also looking shorter winged as
I recall (once again I've only seen a couple).  However I believe Armenian is
darker mantled and also longer winged as is barabensis, I believe (no
experience then what books or photos can tell me).  Also It seems michahellis
is
eliminated in the same way. I have to wonder about Mongolicus too though way,
way
out of range.  I don't feel its a Cali Gull, though it looks very close to it
structure doesn't quite look right also it lacks a reddish gape line.  To me
this leaves me with a "Yellow-legged" (I would guess Caspian) hybrid possibly
with Herring and I am very interested in hearing what those more familiar with
these birds have to say.  Also any flight photos would probably help to clear
this mess up real quick.  Looking forward to hearing what those with more
experience have to say.

David Vander Pluym
UC Santa Cruz Cal USA

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 7:58am

I am glad that west coast birders pegged this bird as 
a potential Cal Gull since that was my first impression 
upon seeing the photos. Lacking experience with the 
YLGU, Caspian and other central European/Western 
Asian gulls I could not come up with any other 
possibilities. I have found it interesting that some inland
nesting birds like barabensis have some Cal Gull like
features. Convergence perhaps? (Hugely oversimplifying 
the situation I am sure).

I also found it interesting that the dark areas on the 
tertial and scaps also appear to be damaged feathers
suggesting that the dark is not pigment but possibly 
stains of some sort. This of course suggests to me
that this bird may have hitchhiked its way across an 
ocean and a few continents perhaps in the storage 
hold of an large cargo ship, or even as a ship board pet??

I guess this is a point in favor of the ID as a Cal Gull
but perhaps not a popular point of view.

Cheers.

Matt

Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA  19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182

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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 9:40am

 John Idzikowski wrote:>The original message was posted late at
> night in Norway; it will be interesting to read what the spin from the UK
> and the Continent will be on this bird when everyone wakes up.<

From an awoken Europe I can say the following: the bill-shape of the
Norwegian bird is similar to cachinnans but there the similarity ends. I can
well live with California Gull. Congratulations to the lucky finder!
Norman

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: More gulls from Holland
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 9:40am

One (the other is not shown) of two small gulls I saw on 16th December 2003
in the SW Netherlands and shown  on:

 http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp41.html

has been named as:

- a Herring Gull of 'northerly' origin;
- argentatus with reduced black in wings;
- 'wing pattern does not fit northern Herring Gulls;
- Lesser Black-backed Gull x Glaucous Gull;
- 'not a Thayer's as head streaking is too heavy';
- Kumlien's Gull.

Whenever we mention 'Herring Gull of northerly origin' in The Netherlands we
refer to L.a.argentatus a breeding bird of the north Norwegian coast and
adjacent Russian coast. We can easily separate it from local Dutch breeding
birds which belong to L.a.argenteus (contra Olsen et al). Compared to
argentatus, argenteus is small and has a pale grey mantle. Both have yellow
to ochre orbital rings. Adult argentatus may arrive in Holland as early as
July and will then undergo a complete mou(l)t in the months that follow.
Adults will leave again from February onwards whereas immature birds may
over-summer.

There have been cases of presumed hybrids between argentatus and Glaucous
Gulls, so-called Nelson's Gull. I have pictures of a dead adult I found some
years ago and if Martin Reid agrees (again!) I will show them to you. As
both parent species are large, this individual is rather large as well. It
has a yellow orbital ring as indeed is also typical for Glaucous Gull of
European origin whereas the shade of the mantle is dark grey, more like it's
presumed argentatus parent! In NW Russia, north of Archangelsk, Glaucous and
Heuglin's Gull L.fuscus heuglini breed in the same area and I have one
photograph showing a presumed adult Glaucous with a little black spot in the
primaries. Perhaps this bird is hybrid hyperboreus x heuglini but we shall
never know.

Although the Herring Gulls from Iceland occur in the north of Europe, they
are of  'southern' origin as they belong to the race argenteus! Furthermore,
of course, there is the Baltic Herring Gull which Olsen et al consider to be
argentatus but which I prefer to name L.omissus. These gulls have paler
mantles than true argentatus and many have orange-red orbital eye-rings.

L.a.smithonianus is another Herring Gull, individuals of which may breed in
the 'north', it has yellow to ochre orbital rings and the grey mantle can
even be a shade paler than argenteus (Mullarney in litt.) while on average
it is a large gull. According to Peter de Knijff (in litt.) adult Glaucous
Gulls in New Foundland seen in winter and perhaps belonging to the race
barrovianus, have orange-red orbital rings.

The birds I found on 16th December (and again one yesterday!) have dark
(winter) orbital rings with vermillion red remains, typical for kumlieni and
thayeri, they are smaller than argenteus and their primary pattern can be
found among Kumlien's and Thayer's Gulls alike (see fig.'s 2 and 2c in Alula
p.4 1/2003 and p.133 4/2001 respectively in excellent articles written by
Steve N.G.Howell and Martin T.Elliott. My birds have pale yellow eyes
similar to some of the Thayer's and Kumlien's shown in the afore-mentioned
articles. The head streaking of my birds can also be found in some of the
pictures of both Thayer's and Kumlien's shown in the same articles.

Killian Mullarney wrote:> Actually - and this is my main reason for
responding -  I am more interested
> in the adult Herring Gull that is mostly concealed behind the Lesser
> Black-backed Gull and Common Gull in the foreground of the one 'group
shot'
> posted on Martin's page; it appears to have discrete blackish markings on
> one of its tertials, something that seems to be very rarely (if ever?)
> exhibited by European Herring Gulls, but which can be seen in some
> near-adult American Herring Gulls. Have you by any chance additional shots
> that show more of this potentially interesting bird?<

Miraculously, it so happened that I met the young man from Ireland last
Saturday, we went outside for an hour or so only leaving behind a small
amount of blood-stained snow before we had a pleasant conversation about
gulls, what else? In their article 'Identification of American Herring Gull
in a western European context' in Dutch Birding 26: 1-35, 2004, Pat Lonergan
and Killian Mullarney reveal, among other things, that 5 to 10 % of near
adult and even adult L.a.smithonianus show black 'ink-spots' on one or more
tertials. Indeed some smithonianus in third-winter plumage show whole rows
of black-spotted wing-coverts or black-centred secondaries. This discovery
makes it possible to separate at least some smithonianus from argenteus. The
spots come in all shapes and sizes and the diamond-shaped spot Killian
noticed in the picture I took on 16th December comes close the one shown in
fig.3 as no 5! So that means two new birds for The Netherlands on 16th 2003.
What a birthday! Last week I found another smithonianus, this time an adult
with at least two small spots similar in size to the one shown in fig.3 as
no.9. Incidentally, the 'Norwegian' californicus also shows black in the
tertials so perhaps what we have here is the American black-spotted gene!
Norman

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: [surfbirdsnews]Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Martin <martin.go(AT)VIRGIN.NET>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 11:19am

Err...hmmmm...Oh my goodness!!

OK I'll step out on the thin ice of gull ID and say I am struggling to
wonder why the Norwegian Gull is not a California Gull. I just can't make it
fit much else.
I have seen both forms of California Gull and tried to get to know them, but
obviously nothing like as well as our North American friends. But it does
look and feel like a California Gull (and yes I would even be thinking of
the northern paler, larger albertaensis). I don't need to add much to what
others have said from the North American side. It does not look like any
kind of Caspian Gull really given that it may do so superficially. The rest
of the package bill shape/ colour, orbital ring and iris colour, leg length/
colour, overall had shape/ jizz upperparts etc all look OK for California.
What really got to me most though was the head and breast etc streaking
which is, if  you like, the 'California Gull pattern'.... just somehow
sutbly distinct if hard to put into words. i.e.mostly white foreface and
foreneck (given thats it moulting out) so streaking more focused on  at rear
half of head and extending right down to breast bib (thus not a hood of
streaking) with a pattern of thin streaks crossed by splodges (some kind of
'V' shaped)....its a rubbish description but somehow looks more right for
California than most Herring Gull types and certainly not what I would
expect to see on a Caspian Gull.

It is clearly a subadult Gull with some brownish wash in the coverts and
reduced white tips to outer primaries as well as the dark splodges on
tertials , (which being present on both sides, I assume is real plumage
marking  and not dirt.)

To  fully satisfy me I'd like to know if the black tertial slodge is OK  and
normal for California at this stage (any photos...eg  right now from west
coast states that can match it??!!..and also I presume the lack of obvious
gape line again is age related (photo again would be good.)
I would most especially like to see the open wingtip pattern for security
and information!

Given that California Gulls have apparently reached Japan and Hawaii,
Western Europe is perhaps not actually  such a big deal.

Someone prove me wrong I'd be glad to learn.

Martin Garner

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frode Falkenberg" <falken(AT)sisyfos.zoo.uib.no>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>; <surfbirdsnews(AT)lists.surfbirds.com>
Cc: <kjetaso(AT)online.no>; <alf(AT)sisyfos.zoo.uib.no>; "Einar"
<einarset(AT)yahoo.no>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:45 PM
Subject: [surfbirdsnews]Large dark eyed gull mystery

Hi all!

A spooky dark-eyed subadult gull superficially similar to a Caspian Gull
was photographed in middle Norway on February 4th. Several features fit
Caspian well(which is a vagrant in Norway), while others doesn't.

Have a look at a series of pictures and some comments at:

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ (9 February 2004)

Further comments are appreciated.

Frode

Department of Biology, UiB
All�gaten 41
5007 Bergen
Norway
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/
Cell/SMS: +4793440647
_______________________________________________
surfbirdsnews mailing list
surfbirdsnews(AT)lists.surfbirds.com
http://lists.surfbirds.com/mailman/listinfo/surfbirdsnews

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 2:11pm

Often when an out-of-range bird is reported, those most familiar with
the claimed species immediately object, saying, "I know that species,
and your bird is not that."  In this case, however, it appears the
opposite is going on.  And I'll add to it.  As a Californian who is
quite familiar with California Gull, I agree this bird sure looks like a
California Gull (albertensis) to me.  I'd even venture to say it's a
female by the more rounded head and soft brow.  The plumage, posture,
everything, seems just fine.

The head and breast streaking may play an important role in ruling out
other possibilities (e.g., those Eurasian steppe gulls that really are
ecological counterparts to Calif. Gull-- and with which I am much less
familiar).  A good photo of a Calif Gull with similar streaking is at:
http://www.abouzeid.com/abouzeid/wlm/GrizzlyIsland/images/big/Californiagull.jpg

Many CAGU around here are getting white-headed now, with just streaking
left around the lower nape.

hadde bra,

Steve Hampton
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Don Roberson <creagrus(AT)montereybay.com>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 3:12pm

In discussing the Norwegian dark-eyed gull, I thought it would be useful
to have a comparative set of shots of California Gull taken on or about
the same date and in similar postures as the mystery bird. I took these
shots today on my lunch break at Pt. Pinos in central California. They
are presumably all of nominate birds; the selection shows third-winter
to adult winter individuals, and addresses some points raised by others
earlier in this discussion.

The page is at http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTYlistCAGU.html

Don Roberson
Pacific Grove CA

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 4:37pm

Phil, Martin et al,
As most people have commented, the bird will be difficult to rule out as a
California Gull. Having never seem albertaensis, I'll take the comments
relating to mantle color, jizz and wing length under advisement.
There are a few new pictures at the site, though its tough to discern much
from the blurred  flight shot.
Given the vacuum in records of California on the east coast (think Elegant
Tern) it's amazing to think how the bird got to Norway...over the
top..(almost literally!)

Julian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Pickering" <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Large dark eyed gull mystery

> Julian and All,
>
> Assuming it is a California and not some incredible intergrade
> facsimile (not likely IMO given the leg coloration and apparent size),
> it's probably a larger albertaensis-type. Albertaensis are typically
> larger-bodied and can have *much* shorter primary projection, and
> much more of a square look to the head (although that's not really
> how I'd describe this bird) than smaller L. c. californicus types.
> I see both "races" (and everything in between) mixed together
> annually on the Oregon coast. Jizz seems fine to me for a bird
> on the large end of Cal's extremely variable size spectrum. The
> far ends of the spectrum next to each other can look like different
> species structurally.
>
> The black/red bill pattern looks quite typical for a 3rd-winter (4th
> CY). I don't have many photos of large-end Cals handy, but this (age?)
> bird at least shows some similarities, including similar head shape,
> and a similar if more faded bill pattern -
>
> http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/cal001.jpg
>
> Many California gulls apparently don't have a direct, simple
> migration route, moving west to the Pacific first, staging there,
> then moving south. Not sure that means a lot, other than some
> albertaensis that end up in southern California have traveled
> a much longer distance than you would assume. It's hard to say
> what such a bird with a messed up sense of direction is capable
> of. Stranger things have definitely happened.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Phil
>
>
> > The gull is very interesting, but the jizz looks a little "off" for
> > California Gull as I remember them (I'm on the East coast and so I
haven't
> > seen many in a while!). The head looks too square, the wings too short
and
> > the shape of the dark subterminal bill band may not be typical.

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 5:02pm

Matt Sharp wrote: >This of course suggests to me
that this bird may have hitchhiked its way across an
ocean and a few continents perhaps in the storage
hold of an large cargo ship, or even as a ship board pet??

I guess this is a point in favor of the ID as a Cal Gull
but perhaps not a popular point of view.<

Do not under estimate the physical capabilities of seabirds Matt!
Norman

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 6:12pm

> There are a few new pictures at the site, though its tough to discern much
> from the blurred  flight shot.

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/

Cool flight shot! Kind of a Native American 'Spirit of Gull' image.

Nothing there to hurt the chances of this being a Cal. Difficult
to be sure of course, but the underwing linings appear to be
contrastingly darker as they should be. Black under-primary
triangle seems defined, large, and relatively straight-edged as it
should, with no suspicious white primary tongues or anything similar
to explain. Width and shape of black band on P5 also appears
perfect for Cal. To feel confident a better flight shot would be helpful
of course, as would a size/mantle shade comparison shot with
Herring.

The more evident shape and proportions in the new profile (top
shot) still seem great. Legs are on the long end, but many look
like this. I have video of a nominate bird and an albertaensis
dodging an incoming wave side by side, with the difference in
leg length so extreme that the larger bird is walking normally
while the smaller is clearly waddling like a penguin.

Cheers,

Phil

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Robert Lewis <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 7:21pm

On Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 06:37  PM, Julian Hough wrote:

> Phil, Martin et al,
> As most people have commented, the bird will be difficult to rule out
> as a
> California Gull. Having never seem albertaensis, I'll take the comments
> relating to mantle color, jizz and wing length under advisement.
> There are a few new pictures at the site, though its tough to discern
> much
> from the blurred  flight shot.
> Given the vacuum in records of California on the east coast (think
> Elegant
> Tern) it's amazing to think how the bird got to Norway...over the
> top..(almost literally!)

   I'm not sure "vacuum" is the right word.  They are fairly regular at
Hatteras, with often more than one bird present at a time (at least
that was true from say 1995 - 2000).  There are several records from
Niagara Falls and I think at least two from Long island, and I know at
least one from along the Hudson River near Nyack NY, about 25 miles up
river from the ocean.  I think there are some Maryland and New Jersey
records, but I'll let others comment on that.  I would be surprised if
there are anywhere near as many records of Elegant Tern in the East.

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: East coast CAGU
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 8:19pm

As a couple of people have mentioned, CAGU are seen sporadically in the
southern Atlantic States and I should've been more specific and stated that
there is a general lack of records from coastal, mid-Atlantic States and the
North-east.
The NY birds are interesting, though I don't recall any recent NJ records. I
was aware that several had been seen in the 'east', notably the Niagara
region, as I was lucky enough myself to find a second-winter at Long Point,
Ontario back in the Spring of '91.

Regards,

Julian
\----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Lewis" <lewis(AT)bway.net>
To: "Julian Hough" <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Large dark eyed gull mystery

>
> On Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 06:37  PM, Julian Hough wrote:
>
> > Phil, Martin et al,
> > As most people have commented, the bird will be difficult to rule out
> > as a
> > California Gull. Having never seem albertaensis, I'll take the comments
> > relating to mantle color, jizz and wing length under advisement.
> > There are a few new pictures at the site, though its tough to discern
> > much
> > from the blurred  flight shot.
> > Given the vacuum in records of California on the east coast (think
> > Elegant
> > Tern) it's amazing to think how the bird got to Norway...over the
> > top..(almost literally!)
>
>    I'm not sure "vacuum" is the right word.  They are fairly regular at
> Hatteras, with often more than one bird present at a time (at least
> that was true from say 1995 - 2000).  There are several records from
> Niagara Falls and I think at least two from Long island, and I know at
> least one from along the Hudson River near Nyack NY, about 25 miles up
> river from the ocean.  I think there are some Maryland and New Jersey
> records, but I'll let others comment on that.  I would be surprised if
> there are anywhere near as many records of Elegant Tern in the East.
>
> Bob Lewis
> Sleepy Hollow NY
>

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 10 Feb 2004 11:33pm

As for Maryland and DC records of California Gull, you can see where things
stand directly from our database ...

Take this link to the MD/DC Records Committee web pages:

         http://www.mdbirds.org/mddcrc/rcindex.html

Near the bottom of the page (actually, three links up from the bottom)
follow the link called "Data Base." This will download a PDF file of an
abridged version of our database. Do a "Find" (appropriately, it's the
binoculars icon on the tool bar) and type in the word "california" and it
will take you to the beginning of the California Gull database entries for
MD and DC. There are 21 of them of various decisions and states of review.
We recently uncovered five additional published reports of the species that
I will be adding to the database soon. Some of these are undocumented, but
published, sight reports.

Hope this help ...

Phil

At 21:15 02/10/2004 -0500, Bob Lewis wrote:
>On Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 06:37  PM, Julian Hough wrote:
>I think there are some Maryland and New Jersey
>records, but I'll let others comment on that.

===================================================
Phil Davis, Secretary
MD/DC Records Committee
2549 Vale Court
Davidsonville, Maryland  21035     USA
301-261-0184
mailto:PDavis(AT)ix.netcom.com

MD/DCRC Web site:  http://www.MDBirds.org/mddcrc/rcindex.html
===================================================

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: AW: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Daniela.Detlef.Gruber(AT)T-ONLINE.DE
Date: 11 Feb 2004 4:19am

Steve wrote:
Often when an out-of-range bird is reported, those most familiar with
the claimed species immediately object, saying, "I know that species,
and your bird is not that."  In this case, however, it appears the
opposite is going on.

Absolutely, but what I miss are the comments of those who are familiar
with the enormous variability in Caspian. I read good arguments pro
California, but what�s about contra arguments against Caspian. I don�t
see anything to doubt that the Norwegian Gull is just a pretty immature
Caspian wife. I have seen over the years a number of Caspian�s which
match the recent Norwegian Mystery Gull perfectly (or I am wrong and
didn�t identified Califonia�s in Germany?).

I am sorry to say, but I strongly believe that this Mystery Gull does
NOT add California Gull to the WP-list.

All the best!
Detlef Gruber
GERMANY

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Frode Falkenberg <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 4:33am

Hi all, and thanks for all the feedback! 

Turned out to be 'slightly' more intriguing than expected! 

The pictures published by Don Robertson at:
http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTYlistCAGU.html illustrate third winter
californicus with dark pigments on the tail and wing-coverts. How variable
is the timing of moult between the subspecies? Is albertaensis more
advanced during winter? 

Two new pics were added yesterday, and that's about what is available. The
flightshot is poor, despite its artistic appearence, but as Phil P. says,
it shows black extending well down to p5. During a short search the bird
was not relocated tuesday.

Still, it would be nice to hear from people with experience with eastern
species and hybrid combinations.

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ 

Frode Falkenberg

PS! About the migratory effort put down by a gull. Glaucous-winged Gull and
Mew/Short-billed Gull are both recorded in the Western Palearctic (Canaries
and Azores), as are about ten Thayers Gulls (NW Europe). All of these
species winter at the American west coast (and are rare on the east coast I
think...). So I guess when a gull is out of range, it might show up
anywhere on the other side of the pond, depending of the departure location
(assuming most birds following the great circle). I have no problem in
accepting a California Gull reaching Europe.

Department of Biology, UiB
All�gaten 41
5007 Bergen
Norway
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/ 
Cell/SMS: +4793440647

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?David=20Erterius?= <exulanz(AT)YAHOO.SE>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 5:46am

Hi all,

--- Frode Falkenberg <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
wrote:

> Still, it would be nice to hear from people with
> experience with eastern species and hybrid
> combinations.

I've no experience in California gull but I've seen
some 250 Caspian gulls here in southernmost Sweden of
which some 50% were adults and some 20% subadults
during the fall from August to late October.

I've never ever seen anything like the Norwegian gull,
neither on the Caspian gull pages on the www nor in
the field! This gull is in my eyes something really
extraordinary! Of course one have to be very cautious
when identifying gulls in general and especially birds
out of range because of the HUGE variation of the
plumage in these creatures...

But... my opinion is that the Norwegian gull differs
in so many respects that I think it's far-fetched to
speak of a hybrid or an abberant Caspian gull. Indeed
not a single feature speak against California gull!
Nor do I think anything support Caspian gull except
the dark eyes, the jizz, facial expression and the
structure of the bill isn't really typical for
Caspian.

Finally I can say that the illustrator of the "Gulls
of Europe and North America", Hans Larsson believes
that this bird is a California gull (although I'm not
a fan of belief in authority... :) )

/ Best regards,

  David Erterius, Sweden

=====
David Erterius
Tullgatan 5A
S-223 54 LUND
tel: (0046) 46 12 62 64
mobile: (+46) 705 97 86 09
___________________________

H�strusk och gr� moln - k�p en resa till solen p� Yahoo! Resor p� adressen
http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 5:53am

I have no difficulty seeing the similarities that would suggest that the
Norwegian gull could be a albertaensis CAGU  but I feel that because of the
great
similarities of CAGU to cachinnans that we must thoughtfully investigate
the more probable case of a hybrid or an aberrant/small Caspian. All other
body
characters being equal and lacking any definitive evidence from the outer
primary
pattern I thought it would be obvious to focus on a comparison of bills. I
have created three comparison cut and paste pages of CAGU compared to the
Norwegian gull and Caspian Gull compared to the Norwegian Gull;

http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/cagu.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/cagu2.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/caspian.jpg

-I was intrigued by bill shape and the size and shape of the red gonys spot.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 6:21am

Dear all,
A most fascinating bird and subsequent discussion.  Like many of you my
first reaction on seeing the initial pics was to think "wow - this looks
like a California Gull!"  However, on reflection, and with the benefit of
having studied gulls in Bahrain, I find myself retreating from that first
reaction in favor of some kind of Caspian Gull - probably from a more
easterly population than are normally seen in Western Europe.
The bill tip shape has bothered me, having too gentle an angle for Calif.
(more like female Casp), plus the legs look oddly long for a
Calif.  However the really puzzling aspect of this bird as a putative
Calif. is the length of the primaries and tail in a relaxed standing
position: Calif. reminds me of LBBG in this area, having a relatively short
tail that ends below P6, plus large gaps between the tips of P7 -P8-P9.
Looking at the Calif. pics:-
http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTYlistCAGU.html
  - I think the two pics of the floating 3W bird are caught in motion and
perhaps misleading - anyway there is still lots of wing beyond the tail
tip; the adults are at a tough angle, but even so, there is again lots of
wing visible beyond the tail.  Maybe Don can provide us with more pics of
birds in profile?
at
http://www.abouzeid.com/abouzeid/wlm/GrizzlyIsland/images/big/Californiagull.jpg
  - it is critical to know WHEN this pic was taken; it looks like Ps 9 and
10 are not fully-grown; if this is normal for a Calif gull in early Feb, I
need to know this!  Even without the date, note that the tail falls under
the tip of P6, and the size of the gap between P7 and P8.
looking at these adults in profile:
http://www.martinreid.com/cagup15.html
- the same structure that I think of as typical of calif. is visible: short
tail falling under the tip of P6, with lots of wing beyond the tail and
large gaps between P7 -P8-P9.
Looking at the Norwegian bird:
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ufo/4w_01.php
I see a rear end that is very far from typical Calif.  - indeed it looks
too stumpy even for what we think of as typical Casp. I enlarged the photos
to confirm for myself that in fact P10 is slightly shorter than P9, and
thus not part of the visible tip (from above) when folded; this means that
the tail is indeed aligned under P6 (with P5 being more visible than usual
due to the wear of the tertials?) - but it also means that the "clump" of
three very-closely-spaced apical spots visible on the folded wing are
P7-P9!  Either this a new species: the Dumpy-winged Gull (Larus
sedentarius) or it is an individual that is still actively growing the
outer primaries.  Can anyone provide a photo of Califs doing this in early
Feb?  even if one can be found, I suspect it would be considered an
abnormal moult.  Of course, we don't think of Caps doing this either - but
far less is known about the eastern populations, and with an apparent
northwards-moving colonizing event underway, maybe this is in a state of flux.
So, can presumed Casps. look like this bird? take a look at these examples
from Bahrain in March:
http://www.martinreid.com/cachp14.html
http://www.martinreid.com/cachp19.html
- please ignore my over-confident racial assignations!
I feel that these are as good - if not better - matches for the Norwegian
gull than any Calif in Feb - with one important exception: the extent and
pattern of winter head markings.   I feel that this remains the best pro
Calif feature, and one that need to be investigated further regarding
occurrence in sub-adults of eastern Casp-like populations.  My pics from
the harsh and abrasive environment of Bahrain may simply reflect a
difference in humidity, and of six weeks of wear/moult, between Norway in
early Feb and Bahrain in mid March.
I've long pondered over the similarities between certain birds I saw in
Bahrain and the forms of Calif., and feel this is a timely reminder of
Convergent Evolution, and how hard some distant relatives can be to tell apart!
Cheers,
Martin

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 8:17am

Just to be clear I am more troubled by the fact that
the dark areas on the birds scaps and terts are 
apparently damaged than I am by the fact that they
are dark. The coincidence that the damaged feathers
are also dark to me is most easily explained by staining
and is not dismissible just because it is symmetrical.

In comparison to Roberson's photos it appears that 
some 3rd winter CaGus have more brown in the plumage
than the Norwegian bird. What else on this bird besides
the brown is diagnostic for a non adult?

I do not under-estimate the physical capabilities of seabirds
which is why I believe this bird could have survived for untold
months in the cargo hold of a ship. 

Do not underestimate the capabilities of humans to transport foreign 
organisms to the far reaches of the planet.

Th coincidence of feather damage and apparent stains is for me 
a big red warning signal against natural vagrancy in this case. I 
do not even consider myself conservative on these matters and 
am quite prepared to accept things like Pink-footed Goose, and 
Barnacle Goose, on the east coast of the US as naturally occurring
but am not prepared to dismiss feather damage without at least 
looking for an explanation. The simplest of which is some form of 
contact with humans since we are probably the dirtiest species on
earth.

Cheers

Matt

Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA  19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182

>>> "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL> 02/10/04 06:11PM >>>
Matt Sharp wrote: >This of course suggests to me
that this bird may have hitchhiked its way across an
ocean and a few continents perhaps in the storage
hold of an large cargo ship, or even as a ship board pet??

I guess this is a point in favor of the ID as a Cal Gull
but perhaps not a popular point of view.<

Do not under estimate the physical capabilities of seabirds Matt!
Norman

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Swamphen <speedyg(AT)SWAMPHEN.NET>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 8:21am

>>I would be surprised if there are anywhere near as many records of Elegant
Tern in the East.<<

Off the top of my head, one in Virginia and two or three in Florida.

-S.P.McCool
Crawfordville, Wakulla County, Florida
http://www.swamphen.net/
USDA Zone 8B - Sunset Zone 28 - Heat Zone 9
-------------------------------------------
Walk softly, and carry a big scope.
-------------------------------------------

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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Jonathan Simms <jaeger77(AT)T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 8:29am

For those seeking information on the regularity of California Gull in
eastern North America ... I can comment on my experiences (Chicago area
1997-2002 and southern Ontario 1979 - 1997).

California Gull is annual on Lake Michigan, with anywhere between 1 and 6
birds of various ages (and almost certainly more IMHO). This is complicated
by some bird record committee's views on separation of first winter birds
from American Herring Gull, but I digress. Also, there have been 2 adult
birds frequenting the Niagara Falls area for at least 7 winters. I defer to
others on the presence of this specie in Eastern North America outside of
the Great Lakes.

To my eyes, I would have no problem calling the Norwegian Gull a California,
all issues of HOW it got there aside - but we all know that truly strange
bird records exist. I can site several from my 5 years in the Chicago area.

I have seen no shortage of Caspian, Yellow-legged, Lesser Black-backed and
European flavours of Herring Gull here in Germany, but obviously not as many
as most of the resident Europeans. I have never seen a European gull specie
that looks like this bird.

Therefore, it would seem to represent some truly obscure hybrid or a bona
fide California Gull. I hate to even suggest the possibility, but we may
never know until this bird is examined in the hand, dead or alive (most
preferably the latter).

I think more in-flight shots would be very helpful because California Gull
has a very distinctive pattern in the (upper) primaries and (under)
secondaries.

Respectfully submitted,

Jonathan Simms
currently in Moenchengladbach, Germany
formerly of the Chicago, Illinois area and southwestern Ontario

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 10:04am

Martin and All,

Comparisons with Cal web photos are difficult in many respects
because I think the vast majority are probably of nominate birds.
As I've mentioned, I believe the leg length and thickness of the
rear are well within range of appearance for larger Cals.

My impression is that larger Cals also have much more closely
spaced outer primary tips than smaller birds, but I'll have to look
more closely to confirm that. Unfortunately I didn't record the
month on the one photo of a Cal subadult I posted so it may not
help at all, but the primaries do appear to be at least close to
fully grown, with the tail tip falling near the tip of P6 -

http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/cal001.jpg

While I think the bird is probably a Cal, I have to agree with those
that are taking a more cautious approach. At best there is a lot
more work left to do if anyone really wants to prove this is a Cal
and rule out other poorly-known possiblities. And at worst, as
Jonathan Simms mentions, it may not even be possible, at least not
without better spread wing images.

Cheers,

Phil

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Paul Bright-Thomas <pbright_thomas(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 10:51am

Hi,

this is certainly a very interesting discussion, given the appearance of the
bird, but also the enthusiastic support it is receiving from those who know
albertaensis, which on the face of it may be the least likely explanation.

I can't add any input on CAGU, but can say that this bird doesn't ring true
as Caspian Gull to me.

I did want bring up a couple of points:

o Someone asked if there was any evidence of immaturity apart from the marks
on tertials (and scapulars? Are they also marked?). It seems to me that on
the shots of the bird on the water, including the wing detail, and the last
picture of the standing bird, from behind, that the tips of black greater
primary coverts are also visible. Surely this is indicative of a
not-yet-adult bird. It's pretty hard to say what the primary coverts look
like from the flight shot.

o I find the shape of the white apical tips on the closed wings odd, and
wonder if this is infomative with respect to either age or form. I can't
recall seeing an adult Herring Gull (in Europe) with black bleeding down the
shaft into the apical tip (bang, he is shot down swiftly and mercilessly),
and to my recollection, if the proximal edge of the tip on the folded wing
departs from a straight (possibly staggered) line, then it will be for white
to bleed back up the feather shaft, rather than black to bleed down it. I
would hazard that this also applies to adult Caspian Gulls. Do 4W gulls
commonly show tips with this feature?

o The underside of P10 is not the classic pattern for adult Caspian Gull in
W Europe; ; the mirror doesn't join with the tip (there is a black
subterminal bar) and may not reach the outer web of the feather. The black
on the outer web seems to extend too far back up the feather, with no white
in sight. Is this typical for a 4W cachinnans?

Regards, Paul Bright-Thomas

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 10:55am

Meant to add to my previous post -

Another thing to look more closely at would be if Caspian Gulls ever
show blueish or blueish-gray overtones anywhere on the legs at any
age, since that is a common feature of immature Californias, and is
also something that seems to be apparent in some of the photos of
the gull in question.

Cheers,

Phil

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Diane and Kayo Roy <kayoroy(AT)NIAGARA.COM>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 11:21am

I have just reviewed a Summary of the OBRC Annual Reports and confirm that
there are 34 accepted records of California Gull for Ontario.  Roughly
one-half of these reports are of CAGU's found along the Niagara River.
While there is no way to be sure, this number (34) may actually be on the
high side as many OBRC members and others feel that certain individual
CAGU's have likely made return visits to sites such as the Niagara River
over a number of years.

This discussion of the Norwegian mystery gull is most interesting.

Kayo

Kayo Roy
13 Kinsman Court
Fonthill, ON.
L0S 1E3
kayoroy(AT)niagara.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Simms" <jaeger77(AT)T-ONLINE.DE>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Large dark eyed gull mystery

For those seeking information on the regularity of California Gull in
eastern North America ... I can comment on my experiences (Chicago area
1997-2002 and southern Ontario 1979 - 1997).

California Gull is annual on Lake Michigan, with anywhere between 1 and 6
birds of various ages (and almost certainly more IMHO). This is complicated
by some bird record committee's views on separation of first winter birds
from American Herring Gull, but I digress. Also, there have been 2 adult
birds frequenting the Niagara Falls area for at least 7 winters. I defer to
others on the presence of this specie in Eastern North America outside of
the Great Lakes.

To my eyes, I would have no problem calling the Norwegian Gull a California,
all issues of HOW it got there aside - but we all know that truly strange
bird records exist. I can site several from my 5 years in the Chicago area.

I have seen no shortage of Caspian, Yellow-legged, Lesser Black-backed and
European flavours of Herring Gull here in Germany, but obviously not as many
as most of the resident Europeans. I have never seen a European gull specie
that looks like this bird.

Therefore, it would seem to represent some truly obscure hybrid or a bona
fide California Gull. I hate to even suggest the possibility, but we may
never know until this bird is examined in the hand, dead or alive (most
preferably the latter).

I think more in-flight shots would be very helpful because California Gull
has a very distinctive pattern in the (upper) primaries and (under)
secondaries.

Respectfully submitted,

Jonathan Simms
currently in Moenchengladbach, Germany
formerly of the Chicago, Illinois area and southwestern Ontario

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: David Vander Pluym <SCRE(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 1:57pm

I am still wondering about "Mongolian" Gull on this bird as while there are
limited photos I could find on the web some features match.  I have no expirence
 with this species at all so this is just throwing a possibility I havent really
 seen mentioned out there though some have wondered about interior Asian
populations.  I dont feel this bird is an Armenian (a little expirence with) or
barabensis (no expirence with) for reason I previously stated.  While most
Mongolian Gulls have pink legs I take it some do have grayish legs see
http://www.martinreid.com/mongp02.html second bird up from the bottom.  Also the
 head streaking on the bird in question matches or is similar to Mongolian see
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/casad/mo.html and here
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/021109cho/mo.html Also bill shape and structure
 seem to fit as well.  Also Mongolian can show dark or light eyes and has a red
orbital ring.  The white spots on the folded primaries for Mongolian but maybe
its just variation.  In any case I'd be interested to hear what others might
have to say about this.  As its going its seems the bird will end up another
Larus sp.  Also do Caspain Gulls hybridize with any other species that we know
of?
David Vander PluymUC Santa Cruz Ca USA

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 11 Feb 2004 2:24pm

Martin wrote:> So, can presumed Casps. look like this bird? take a look at
these examples
> from Bahrain in March:
> http://www.martinreid.com/cachp14.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/cachp19.html
> - please ignore my over-confident racial assignations!<

err Martin, may one ask why these gulls are Pontic Caspians? Compare the
head- and neck streaking of your birds with the Nowegian bird and spot the
difference!
Cheers, Norman

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Norway Gull
From: Ottavio Janni <coeligena(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 12 Feb 2004 2:30am

Hello all,
I have a couple of comments on the possible California Gull in Norway.  The
first regards the status of this species on the east coast of North America.
  As Bob Lewis, Phil Davis, and Johnathan Simms already indicated, this
species is in fact quite regular in at least some parts of the east.  In the
Washington DC area where I used to live this species is annual in very small
numbers, and I would go so far as saying that active gull watchers can
expect to find one or two (as opposed to chasing them) almost every winter.
The first record for Washington DC was in 1993 but there have been at least
4 others since, as Phil said there are 20+ records either accepted or under
review in Maryland, most of which are from the early 1990�s onwards (and I
suspect quite a few have not been submitted yet), and records in Virginia
are increasing as well.  I am quite puzzled by the fact that the species
seems to be genuinely much rarer in nearby New Jersey, which certainly has a
lot of active birders.  Incidentally, this vagrancy pattern is somewhat
mirrored by Franklin�s Gull, which is quite regular (annual in small
numbers) in the greater DC area but is far rarer in New Jersey and Delaware.
  If anyone has any more thoughts on this I would be interested in hearing
about them.

I don�t think I can confidently put a name on this gull but I was surprised
that the gull�s size did not receive much attention (perhaps I overlooked
earlier comments?).  I would expect a California Gull, even of the larger
albertensis race, would look visibly smaller among European Herring Gulls,
while a Caspian should appear to be about the same size.  Was the Norway
gull seen in close proximity to Herring Gulls?  Mantle shade should also
provide some clues. I would expect a Cal Gull to look slightly darker than
European Herring Gulls (especially a nominate Cal Gull), while I would
expect a Caspian to be about the same shade.  While living in Washington DC
I was able to see both michaellis Yellow-legged Gull (the Georgetown
Reservoir bird) and California Gulls in flocks of American Herring Gulls,
and my impression was that the darker mantle of Cal Gull stands out a bit
more in a flock of American Herrings than michaellis does.  Now that I am in
Italy and michaellis is the �default� large gull, it is my impression that
Caspian Gull is very slightly paler mantled than the local michaellis, and
the few argentatus Herring Gulls that I�ve seen have seemed almost
indistinguishable in mantle tone from michaellis, hence my comments above
about mantle shades.  Finally, most Cal Gulls I�ve seen have had a definite
yellowish tinge on the legs (usually grayish-yellow, or fleshy-yellow, but
with the yellowish tinge nevertheless present), which this bird does not
seem to show, although for a bird that is not a full adult like the Norway
bird this might be a moot point.

Ottavio Janni
Naples, Italy

_________________________________________________________________
Choose now from 4 levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage - no more account
overload! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Jonathan Simms <jaeger77(AT)T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: 12 Feb 2004 8:18am

I have been thinking about the subject of how a California Gull could have
found it's way to Norway. This remains, of course, a hypothetical debate
since the ID remains unproven.

I do not know if there were any records of California Gull in Atlantic
Canada or New England earlier this winter but let's take a look at the
recent weather in the area ... locals can correct any presumptions/mistakes
that I propose since I was only vaguely aware of the weather in that area
over the past month or two, but some very powerful weather systems (notably
cold ones) hit Eastern North America rather hard.

And what happened to those weather systems after that? I know that one of
then hit England rather hard only 1-2 weeks ago with snow in places that
rarely see the stuff. There have been recent records of presumed and
confirmed American Herring Gulls in The Netherlands and several other places
in western Europe in the past month or so. So it seems plausible that such
powerful weather systems could have pulled birds from Atlantic Canada and
New England over to the European continent.

This suggests the problematic possibility of ship assistance as well. Such
powerful weather systems may have forced some birds on to ships, not to
mention the likelihood of killing many. However, one may never know for
sure.

If the number of California Gulls in eastern North America this winter
proves high (or other western species for that matter Black-headed Grosbeak,
Spotted Towhee, the list goes on) then it seems at least plausible (but
still extraordinary) that a Calfornia Gull could make it's way to Europe.

I believe there is a record of Glaucous-winged Gull from Europe as well. It
would be interesting to know the circumstances and prior weather patterns of
that record, if possible.

Kind regards,

Jonathan Simms
Currently in Moenchengladbach, Germany
Formerly of northeastern Illinois and southwestern Ontario

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Norway Gull
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 12 Feb 2004 8:37am

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 04:20:50 -0500, Ottavio Janni <coeligena(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:

>I don�t think I can confidently put a name on this gull but I was surprised
>that the gull�s size did not receive much attention (perhaps I overlooked
>earlier comments?).  I would expect a California Gull, even of the larger
>albertensis race, would look visibly smaller among European Herring Gulls,
>while a Caspian should appear to be about the same size.

The Norway gull was described, "It was a small gull, slightly smaller than
the average Scandinavian Herring Gull, thereby indicating a female."  That
seems about right for albertaensis given the variation in size between the
sexes.

>Was the Norway
>gull seen in close proximity to Herring Gulls?  Mantle shade should also
>provide some clues. I would expect a Cal Gull to look slightly darker than
>European Herring Gulls (especially a nominate Cal Gull), while I would
>expect a Caspian to be about the same shade.

They intergrade of course, but albertaensis averages paler than
californicus. Light plays an important role as well as the angle the
observer is viewing the birds.  The photos of the Norway gull seem dead-on
for what I would expect of a typical California Gull.

>While living in Washington DC
>I was able to see both michaellis Yellow-legged Gull (the Georgetown
>Reservoir bird) and California Gulls in flocks of American Herring Gulls,
>and my impression was that the darker mantle of Cal Gull stands out a bit
>more in a flock of American Herrings than michaellis does.

That is typical of the californicus I see here almost every day, but
albertaensis is slightly lighter and larger, closer to Herring.

>Now that I am in
>Italy and michaellis is the �default� large gull, it is my impression that
>Caspian Gull is very slightly paler mantled than the local michaellis, and
>the few argentatus Herring Gulls that I�ve seen have seemed almost
>indistinguishable in mantle tone from michaellis, hence my comments above
>about mantle shades.  Finally, most Cal Gulls I�ve seen have had a definite
>yellowish tinge on the legs (usually grayish-yellow, or fleshy-yellow, but
>with the yellowish tinge nevertheless present), which this bird does not
>seem to show, although for a bird that is not a full adult like the Norway
>bird this might be a moot point.

The leg color of my local California Gulls (mostly californicus) varies
seasonally.  It tends to get more yellow as breeding season approaches, but
during the non-breeding season the leg color varies from dull gray to
gray-green to grayish yellow.  I agree with Phil Pickering and others that
the leg color (as well as the proportions) seems perfect for a California
Gull at this season.  The combination of some pinkish mixed with gray is
also typical, especially subadults.

Which brings us back to the age of the Norway bird.  It does show a few
signs of immaturity such as the dark mark on the tertials (unless that's a
stain) and some light brownish wash on the secondaries and scapulars.  It
has been suggested by King (Field Identification of adult californicus and
albertaensis California Gulls, Birders Journal 9:245-261, 2000) that the
California Gull as well as other large gulls should better be classified as
five-year rather than four-year gulls.  The Norway bird does not look
exactly typical for a 3rd winter bird in that it seems to have all white
rectrices with no dark spots.  Thus I think King would probably classify it
as a 4th winter bird. Incidentally, I would advise caution in applying the
characters diagnosed by King in the Birders Journal article, and many of
the photographs in that article are too muddy and dark to do justice to the
live birds.

My own view is that the molt sequence of many large gulls is variable and
that some may take less than four years and some may take longer than four
years to reach a definitive adult plumage.  Here I am influenced by the
work by Hume (Brit. Birds 71:338-345, 1978) in which Herring Gulls at a
Midland roost were found to vary in the number of years to full maturity.

It has been argued that the bird may have been ship-assisted or transported
against its will.  Of course it's unlikely we can know for sure, but when
it comes to gulls there are surprising examples of vagrancy in other
species.  California Gull has already been recorded as a vagrant to Hawaii
and Japan.

On my home turf, the California Gull (californicus) has been expanding its
range and now breeds in good numbers in San Francisco Bay along the coast.
In my view, it is one of the most adaptable of all gulls.  It is the only
gull likely to be seen at high elevations at mountain lakes in the summer.
It is also one of the most common species on offshore pelagic trips in
winter.  It is common in the desert basin and in the Central Valley.  There
is no other gull in our area which is comfortable in such a wide range of
habitats.

I agree that it's possible some perverse hybrid combination that has never
been seen before could mimic the Norway bird, but it looks so much like a
California Gull to me, that I prefer to believe that it is one.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
Birding Classes begin Feb 3 in SF http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 12 Feb 2004 8:53am

Jonathan Simms wrote:> I have been thinking about the subject of how a
California Gull could have
> found it's way to Norway. This remains, of course, a hypothetical debate
> since the ID remains unproven.
>snip<
> There have been recent records of presumed and
> confirmed American Herring Gulls in The Netherlands and several other
places
> in western Europe in the past month or so. So it seems plausible that such
> powerful weather systems could have pulled birds from Atlantic Canada and
> New England over to the European continent.<
Not to mention Kumlien's and our expedition to Morocco in January found a
dead 1st winter Franklin's Gull, a few weeks dead at most.

> I believe there is a record of Glaucous-winged Gull from Europe as well.
It
> would be interesting to know the circumstances and prior weather patterns
of
> that record, if possible.<
One from Morocco as well. I think that many American gulls arrive in the
Canary Islands or SW Europe and then fly north. However there is or was a
rather famous Ring-billed Gull which flew to and fro New Foundland and
Bergen in Norway (Bruce McTavish may tell us more about this one).
Kittiwakes fly in their thousands to New Foundland waters from Europe and
back each autumn and spring. For gulls a transoceanic trip is peanuts, no
ship needed!
Norman
.

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Norway Gull
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 12 Feb 2004 9:49am

> Which brings us back to the age of the Norway bird.  It does show a few
> signs of immaturity such as the dark mark on the tertials (unless that's a
> stain) and some light brownish wash on the secondaries and scapulars.  It
> has been suggested by King (Field Identification of adult californicus and
> albertaensis California Gulls, Birders Journal 9:245-261, 2000) that the
> California Gull as well as other large gulls should better be classified
as
> five-year rather than four-year gulls.  The Norway bird does not look
> exactly typical for a 3rd winter bird in that it seems to have all white
> rectrices with no dark spots.  Thus I think King would probably classify
it
> as a 4th winter bird

I think this is true of larger 4-year gulls, but in my experience
(nominate at least) Californias seem a little different. I've been looking
closely at molt and seasonal appearance in immature Cals for several
years now, and I believe in general all post-juvenile plumage generations
tend to be a little more mature in appearance compared to other
(local) 4-year gulls. Early 1st-summer Cals frequently show
nearly complete adult gray back and scaps, although there is
usually still a lot of dark streaking/marking. By 2nd-summer most
show an almost complete adult mantle including nearly complete
adult gray coverts. By 3rd-winter/summer most are very close to adult-
like, typically with dark remaining in the tertials, and sometimes
a brown wash remaining on the coverts apparent on close inspection.
Although most still have a small amount of dark marking remaining
on the rects, I see at least a minority that are nearly identical to
other 3rd-winter birds in appearance of upperparts that have
clean tails. Because Cals seem comparatively quicker to mature
I think the clean-tailed birds probably just represent variation in
3rd-winter, rather than a 4th-winter plumage. Cals on avg also show
red at the gonys at a much younger age than other larger 4-year gulls.

Cals may have a distinguishable 4th-winter plumage, but the
gull in question actually shows much more obvious signs of
immaturity than some Cals that have dark remaining on the rects.
I think if it's a Cal it's probably a 3rd-winter (4th-CY in this case).

I do agree completely with the general notion that most 4-year large
gulls are still distinguishable from adults until (at least) their 4th full
molt (4th-summer/5th-winter), so calling them 5-year gulls would
perhaps be a little more accurate.

Cheers,

Phil

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Norway Gull
From: "Robert H. Lewis" <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 12 Feb 2004 11:18am

on 2/12/04 10:36 AM, Joseph Morlan at jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG wrote:

> ......
>
>> Was the Norway
>> gull seen in close proximity to Herring Gulls?  Mantle shade should also
>> provide some clues. I would expect a Cal Gull to look slightly darker than
>> European Herring Gulls (especially a nominate Cal Gull), while I would
>> expect a Caspian to be about the same shade.
>
> They intergrade of course, but albertaensis averages paler than
> californicus. Light plays an important role as well as the angle the
> observer is viewing the birds.  The photos of the Norway gull seem dead-on
> for what I would expect of a typical California Gull.

I recall that the California Gulls at Hatteras were often hard to tell from
nearby Herrings (smithsonianus) in mantle color.  Angle was often the
decisive factor. The second and third photos here

http://www.fordham.edu/lewis/birds/Califor/calif.html

are quite faithful in this regard (click on thumbnails).

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Fw: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 12 Feb 2004 4:09pm

Here is an interesting site Frode just gave me:

> All about the two RBG-recoveries from Norway here:
> http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/rbg/ad_04.php

Cheers, Norman

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Frode Falkenberg <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
Date: 13 Feb 2004 1:12am

Eight flightshots of the Norwegian mystery gull are uploaded today at:

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ 

Frode Falkenberg

Department of Biology, UiB
All�gaten 41
5007 Bergen
Norway
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/ 
Cell/SMS: +4793440647

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Norwegian Gul
From: Martin <martin.go(AT)VIRGIN.NET>
Date: 13 Feb 2004 1:47am

Hi,

Respect to Detlef, whom I have learnt lots from about Caspian Gulls. I
probably oversimplified the Caspian/ Califonia Gull issue. I have always
thought it could be at least problematic and actually commented  as such in
the Yellow-legged Gull paper in BB published in 1997. There are real
similarities between the two in terms of both appearance and I assumed then,
ecosystem i.e. steppe/ prairie.

For Europeans,  eliminating all other possibilities is obviously central to
agreeing with the very informative North American line that this is a good
californicus. Eliminating the possibility of the bird being an odd Caspian
etc is presumably the biggest issue. Surely we can eliminate all Herring
Gulls argenteus/ argentatus and smithsonianus. The upperparts are surely to
pale for michahellis/ atlantis and armenicus. I also think it is too pale
for even the variation in barabensis.  If we agree that these are all out (I
know I have not covered ALL the reasons why), it leaves us with
californicus, cachinnans and the ?possibility ?of something even further
away, as suggested, such as mongolicus by David Vander Pluym. I cannot
comment in terms of the latter so I can only focus on  the current train of
thought that the bird's identity lies between californicus and cachinanans.
I see specific potential areas of discussion (which I would like to focus
on) which in combination make it difficult for me to believe it is a Caspian
Gull, and the same features seem to be perfectly normal for a Californa Gull
as follows:

Orbital Ring....is a beautiful deep vermillion? red..almost purplish tone in
the red..in  subadult bird. Caspian, which I am rusty on these days usually/
normally had an orange orbital ring in adult plumage a few with red. Don't
remember it being this deep in colour..esp in sub-adults where colour is
underdeveloped.

Head and Breast streaking.  it is clear that the Norwegian gull has
streaking over the mid and rear crown and extending right round neck sides
onto the mid breast in a bib shape. I don't ever remember seeing a near
adult Caspian Gull with such streaking...not saying they couldn't occur..but
not in my experrience.  2nd winter maybe?

Bill Details...my experience  of small (presumed female) Caspian is they
remind me of big Common Gull...the bill not being exaggerated in length like
some Caspians,  rather thin , neat and parrallel side. I know its subjective
and hard to put into words but the Norwegian Gull's bill looks
proportionatly too thick with a strong gonydeal angle so that the overall
shape for me doesn't fit small Caspian. Furthermore the point made by about
the red spot by John Idzikowski is interesting. Quick check through my
photos and published ones of both gulls shows California often having the
red goydeal spot extend back (anteriorly) to a point around say as far half
way along the nasal groove. The proportions of many Caspisn Gull bills means
that the nasal groove looks further back and the red spot  further forward
and less ' underneath' the nasal groove. Its not absolute, I'm sure there is
overlap..but in the case of the Norwegian gull...the red spot/ nasal groove
deal is much more in keeping with normal California Gull.

I would like to look at the issues of upperpart tone and wingtip details but
I think the above points are enough for me at the moment!. From a European
persepctive I remember seeing groups of small darker nominate californicus
and bigger, paler albertaensis side by side in winter on Vancouver Island
and being surprised how different they looked....bit like the surprising
contrasts you sometimes get with a single big dark argentatus amoung a group
of smaller paler argenteus..ie easy.

anyway keen to hear if others have differing experience or comments on  the
above points

Cheers Martin Garner

Original Message -----
From: <Daniela.Detlef.Gruber(AT)T-ONLINE.DE>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:18 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] AW: Re: [BIRDWG01] Large dark eyed gull mystery

> Steve wrote:
> Often when an out-of-range bird is reported, those most familiar with
> the claimed species immediately object, saying, "I know that species,
> and your bird is not that."  In this case, however, it appears the
> opposite is going on.
>
> Absolutely, but what I miss are the comments of those who are familiar
> with the enormous variability in Caspian. I read good arguments pro
> California, but what's about contra arguments against Caspian. I don't
> see anything to doubt that the Norwegian Gull is just a pretty immature
> Caspian wife. I have seen over the years a number of Caspian's which
> match the recent Norwegian Mystery Gull perfectly (or I am wrong and
> didn't identified Califonia's in Germany?).
>
> I am sorry to say, but I strongly believe that this Mystery Gull does
> NOT add California Gull to the WP-list.
>
> All the best!
> Detlef Gruber
> GERMANY
>

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Martin <martin.go(AT)VIRGIN.NET>
Date: 13 Feb 2004 2:42am

Just got as I sent out my last posting so in haste before I head out....

My assunption is that at this stage the emerging adult pattern on the
primaries should begin to be evident especially in regard to the pattern on
the inner webs/ underwing. I checked a couple of specimens I have of
argenteus Herring Gull which are examples of a bird at almost exactly the
same plumage type as the Norwegian bird and an adult argenteus. The subadult
specimen has (not surprisingly) more dark on the primary pattern than the
adult, most specifically on the outer webs eg obvious on P8 and P7 where
they extend further towards the primary coverts etc..but the iner web/
underside pattern is virtually same as adult which is even more develpoed
than  I expeceted . The Norwegian gull has no hint of the underwing pattern
of Caspian Gull emerging on the innerwebs of outermost primaries/ underwing
pattern which would mitigate against it being that species again. A full
examination of a series of skins and good flight shot could well nail it. It
again loks fine in my view for Californian......

Martin Garner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frode Falkenberg" <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Large dark eyed gull mystery

Eight flightshots of the Norwegian mystery gull are uploaded today at:

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/

Frode Falkenberg

Department of Biology, UiB
All�gaten 41
5007 Bergen
Norway
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/
Cell/SMS: +4793440647

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Jonathan Simms <jaeger77(AT)T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: 13 Feb 2004 11:34am

Having seen the new in-flight images I have a few comments ...

Firstly: nice job with the camera! One couldn't ask for better upperwing
images.

I am a bit surprised at the underwing shots not showing what I expected to
be obviously dark under-secondaries (contrasting with the underwing
coverts). They are darker than the underwing coverts, just not quite as
obvious as I would expect. Is this a known phenomenon among CAGUs of this
age (or subspecie)? Perhaps it's the lighting conditions.

The extent of black in the upperwing is conclusive, I believe, in making
this a 4th winter bird (specifically the primary coverts). The amount of
black on Ps 10, 9 and 8 also supports CAGU, specifically the amount of black
towards the base of each feather. In North American LWGUs (large
white-headed gulls), this is quite distinctive in CAGU. (Only Western has a
similar amount of black, but other obvious differences arise.)

So where does this get us? I would have to say that there is no way to
eliminate California Gull without DNA evidence.

And what other candidates need to be considered? Well, I think the only
other possibility is a  Eurasian hybrid, quite possibly one parent of which
is Caspian Gull. But this poses the problem of the (very) dark eye. Are
there any east-Asian ID Frontiers subscribers who can comment on Mongolian
Gull?

Kind regards,

Jonathan Simms
Moenchengladbach, Germany

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 13 Feb 2004 1:16pm

> I am a bit surprised at the underwing shots not showing what I expected to
> be obviously dark under-secondaries (contrasting with the underwing
> coverts). They are darker than the underwing coverts, just not quite as
> obvious as I would expect. Is this a known phenomenon among CAGUs of this
> age (or subspecie)? Perhaps it's the lighting conditions.

I think this is just a simple function of relative mantle shade.
Pale-end albertaensis would logically show less underwing
contrast between remiges and coverts than more familiar darker-
mantled californicus types. Darker-end Caspians also show a lot
of underwing contrast and a similar pattern.

Otherwise everything looks fine for Cal (3rd-winter) as far as I
can tell. I haven't looked at how often they show a black
spot of P4, will do so when I get a chance. Flight jizz/profile
is dead on - thick, compact body showing a bit of a barrel
chest, proportionately large head/eye.

Cheers,

Phil

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: 
From: z <zytgiest(AT)POBOX.COM>
Date: 13 Feb 2004 2:09pm

This morning there was a Great Horned having a lively discussion with a
Sharpie in one of the Mesquite Bosques in the lower section of the
park. this was between the Overflow parking area, and the Trailhead
Parking area on the S side of the Bridal Trail and N of the Main
Entrance Road.

Along that same trail, a bit further on, In the First Saguaro stand E
of the Pair of Saguaro's with the Raven Nest Remnant in it's arms,
there were a Pair of W. Screech Owls with their faces sticking out of
Cavities in the upper arms.
One was in an East Facing cavity and could be missed unless looking
bask, the other, a bit higher and in an arm closer to the trail, (west)
and facing more SW than the first.

these were the first we have seen on these morning walks.

denis
z

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Americans like Italian top sites (gull matter)...
From: Menotti Passarella <menotti.passarella(AT)LIBERO.IT>
Date: 14 Feb 2004 6:24am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Hi all=20
The second of ever Laughing Gull and the second of ever Ring-billed Gull =
for Italy, are currently wintering in N Italy.
The former was found on 18 Feb 2003 by Mara Calvini at SANREMO, along =
the famous Riviera, NW Italy:

http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/_XOOM/ebnitalia/gallery/gabbiano_sg.htm

The latter was discovered yesterday and fotographed today 14 Feb 2003 by =
Stefano Castelli in San Marco square, in the middle of the famous town =
of VENICE, NE Italy; some photos are to be found in the folder "Gavina =
A." at this link:

http://photos.yahoo.com/cstefaxx

Cheers
Menotti Passarella, Italy
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Americans like Italian top sites (gull
         matter)...
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 14 Feb 2004 8:33am

I was wondering if there was any more information on where the Sanremo
Laughing Gull was ringed (banded)?

Strikes me as odd to see the ring placed above the 'knee' like that and I
wonder if the numbers can be read by telescope or at least the approximate
origin of the ring further identified?

For some reason, Laughing Gulls show a remarkable pattern of vagrancy -
perhaps more than any other gull species! In addition to several reaching
Western Europe every year, there are records from a number of remote
locations in the Pacific including Hawaii, as well as Morocco, West Africa,
Namibia, Australia, Japan and Malasyia.

Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City, USA

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ID-FRONTIERS for February 8-14, 2004

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The Virtual Birder

ID-FRONTIERS for February 8-14, 2004

Send feedback on these pages to: BMail@greatblue.com B-Mail Message Content Disclaimer Layout Copyright © 1999-2001 Great Blue Media Works Last Updated: Saturday, October 13, 2007 1:52pm MT

Send feedback on these pages to: BMail@greatblue.com
B-Mail Message Content Disclaimer
Layout Copyright © 1999-2001 Great Blue Media Works
Last Updated: Saturday, October 13, 2007 1:52pm MT