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ID-FRONTIERS for February 22-29, 2004
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Swallow wing linings | Kimball Garrett | Mon, 23 Feb 2004 | 12:10pm |
| RFI: Florida owl | Bill Pranty | Tue, 24 Feb 2004 | 4:41pm |
| Tufted Duck or hybrid? | Scott Downes | Tue, 24 Feb 2004 | 11:27pm |
| Barrow's Goldeneye | Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 5:37am |
| Re: Barrow's Goldeneye | Jean Iron | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 6:19am |
| Re: Barrow's Goldeneye | Bas van der Burg | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 11:38am |
| Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid? | greg.gillson(AT)EXGATE. | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 12:49pm |
| Re: Barrow's Goldeneye | Angus Wilson | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 1:42pm |
| Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid? | Michael Dossett | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 1:58pm |
| Re: Barrow's Goldeneye | Kenn Kaufman | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 2:01pm |
| Reply: Tufted Duck or hybrid? | Millington/BIS | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 3:29pm |
| Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid? | Phil Jeffrey | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 3:59pm |
| Re: Barrow's Goldeneye | Angus Wilson | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 4:45pm |
| Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid? | Scott Downes | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 5:00pm |
| Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid? | Joseph Morlan | Wed, 25 Feb 2004 | 11:33pm |
| Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid? | Simon Woolley | Thu, 26 Feb 2004 | 12:55am |
| A Gull - No! A Goose - Florida | Noel Wamer | Thu, 26 Feb 2004 | 11:15am |
| ID Knot known... | Swamphen | Fri, 27 Feb 2004 | 8:52am |
| Re: ID Knot known... | Lethaby, Nick | Fri, 27 Feb 2004 | 10:18am |
| Re: ID Knot known... | Allen Chartier | Fri, 27 Feb 2004 | 10:47am |
| Black Brant hybrid? | Gunter De Smet | Fri, 27 Feb 2004 | 11:21am |
| Re: ID Knot known... | Matt Brady | Sat, 28 Feb 2004 | 2:43am |
| Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | David Roemer | Sat, 28 Feb 2004 | 1:53pm |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM | Sat, 28 Feb 2004 | 2:27pm |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | Alan Wormington | Sat, 28 Feb 2004 | 8:15pm |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | Steve Hampton | Sat, 28 Feb 2004 | 9:29pm |
| Re: ID Knot known... | Jeff Gilligan | Sat, 28 Feb 2004 | 11:22pm |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | Matt Sharp | Sun, 29 Feb 2004 | 7:31am |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | Bruce Mactavish | Sun, 29 Feb 2004 | 1:47pm |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | Julian Hough | Sun, 29 Feb 2004 | 2:59pm |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky | SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM | Sun, 29 Feb 2004 | 3:54pm |
| Great White Egret showing 'modesta' features in
Spain | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricar | Sun, 29 Feb 2004 | 4:32pm |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | Robert Hughes | Sun, 29 Feb 2004 | 6:17pm |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | Alan Wormington | Sun, 29 Feb 2004 | 6:53pm |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | Robert Hughes | Sun, 29 Feb 2004 | 7:30pm |
| Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance | Phillip Pickering | Sun, 29 Feb 2004 | 11:25pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Swallow wing linings
From: Kimball Garrett <kgarrett(AT)NHM.ORG>
Date: 23 Feb 2004 12:10pm
ID-Frontiers:
Having thrown up my hands at albertaensis vs. nominate California Gulls
(standing birds routinely morph from one to the other by shifting their
angle to the sun a few degrees), I looked upward the other day instead at
hundreds of Tree and Violet-green Swallows wheeling over a lake north of
Los Angeles and wondered why a fairly striking difference between these two
species (admittedly not generally an identification challenge) is either
ignored or incorrectly illustrated in field guides.
Regarding identification of swallows in flight (an eminently reasonable
thing to which to aspire for aerial insectivores), I'm first of all struck
by how few guides even show flying swallows from below. Only Sibley and
NGS approach this in a comparative way for North America (amazingly, Turner
and Rose's "Swallows and Martins: An Identification Guide and Handbook" has
no figures of Tachycineta in flight from below and no text information).
In a nutshell the difference is the following: The axillars of
Violet-green Swallows vary from pure white (mainly adult males?) to grayish
(immatures), and the remaining wing linings are pale grayish-white to pale
dusky-brown. In Tree Swallows the axillars are dark dusky-gray and the
wing linings are dusky. The net effect in the field is of a generally pale
wing lining and smooth transition from white underparts to dark flight
feathers in Violet-green Swallow, and an abrupt transition from white
underparts to dark underwings in the Tree Swallow.
The NGS (3rd ed.) plate depicts Tree too pale on the wing linings, and
Violet-green too dark (the latter should more closely resemble the
portrayal of Common House-Martin on the same plate). The underwings of the
two species look essentially the same in Sibley's depiction. Otherwise,
these plates (particularly Sibley's) portray shape and plumage differences
well, and it's worth pointing out again that Tree vs. Violet-green is
hardly a vexing field ID problem. I guess this brief message is really
more of a call for field guides to be more thorough (and accurate) in
portraying aerial birds in flight from below. As a glance at an African
field guide (for example) will show, underwing patterns of swallows can
yield important clues for species ID.
Kimball Garrett
*****************************************************
Kimball L. Garrett
Ornithology Collections Manager
Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
900 Exposition Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90007 USA
213-763-3368
213-746-2999 FAX
kgarrett(AT)nhm.org
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RFI: Florida owl
From: Bill Pranty <billpranty(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 24 Feb 2004 4:41pm
Good evening,
I just heard about a small owl that was photographed 2-3 winters ago at St.
George Island State Park, Florida, a park along the Gulf of Mexico in the
Florida panhandle. The photographers, Ed and Gwen Alexander, stated that the
eyes of the owl were dark. There are two well-documented records of
Flammulated Owl for Florida, but the St. George Island owl had its eyes
closed when photographed. Plumage patterns of the owl seem to match field
guide illustrations of Flammulated Owl pretty well, but I'd like opinions
from of you who are familiar with the species in life. Thank you.
The URL for the photo is: <http://www.mexicobirding.com/florida/flam.html>.
Thanks also to Jack Dozier for bringing the photo to my attention, and to
Kurt Radamaker for providing server space.
Best regards,
Bill Pranty
Archbold Biological Station
Avon Park, Florida
_________________________________________________________________
Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Tufted Duck or hybrid?
From: Scott Downes <downess(AT)CHARTER.NET>
Date: 24 Feb 2004 11:27pm
I orginally found this bird on a small farm pond in Eastern Washington State
on May 25,2003. There has been some debate as to if the bird is an abnormal
Tufted Duck male or a Tufted Duck X Ring-necked Duck hybrid. Particular
debate has been to the head shape. The bird is essentially as is in the
picture, though I apologize for the poor picture, it was all that was
possible on that day. The location is not near waterfowl breeders and the
bird only stayed one day, this may or may not have any bearing in origins.
The bird has been submitted to the Washington Bird Records Committee but
would welcome comments on the odd looking bird.
The bird can be viewed at a quick webpage I setup at:
http://webpages.charter.net/downess/Tufted_Duck.html
Thank you.
Scott Downes
Yakima WA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Barrow's Goldeneye
From: Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 25 Feb 2004 5:37am
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Hello y'all,
Regarding Barrow's Goldeneye, does anyone know specifically where the Iceland
population winters??
Brian C. Monk, DVM
monkpiper(AT)aol.com
Destin, Florida
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Subject: Re: Barrow's Goldeneye
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 6:19am
The Birds of the Western Palearctic (Cramp and Simmons 1977) on page 654
says "Icelandic breeders resident, overwintering mainly in breeding areas
or on other large ice-free inland watews (Boyd 1959)." Population about
800-1000 breeding pairs.
Ron Pittaway
Toronto ON
At 07:37 AM 2/25/2004 -0500, Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM wrote:
>Hello y'all,
>
>Regarding Barrow's Goldeneye, does anyone know specifically where the
>Iceland population winters??
>
>Brian C. Monk, DVM
>monkpiper(AT)aol.com
>Destin, Florida
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Barrow's Goldeneye
From: Bas van der Burg <kingfisher(AT)ONETELNET.NL>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 11:38am
The Icelandic Bird Guide (Johann Oli Hilmarsson 2000) on page 90 says: "NE
Iceland, mainly lake Myvatn and river Laxa is the only breeding location of
Barrow's Goldeneye in Europe. A few pairs elsewhere. Winters at nesting
place, and onfrozen lakes and rivers in S Iceland". Population about 400 -
800 pairs (2000 birds).
Bas vd Burg
Katwijk
The Netherlands
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]Namens Jean Iron
Verzonden: woensdag 25 februari 2004 14:20
Aan: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Onderwerp: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barrow's Goldeneye
The Birds of the Western Palearctic (Cramp and Simmons 1977) on page 654
says "Icelandic breeders resident, overwintering mainly in breeding areas
or on other large ice-free inland watews (Boyd 1959)." Population about
800-1000 breeding pairs.
Ron Pittaway
Toronto ON
At 07:37 AM 2/25/2004 -0500, Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM wrote:
>Hello y'all,
>
>Regarding Barrow's Goldeneye, does anyone know specifically where the
>Iceland population winters??
>
>Brian C. Monk, DVM
>monkpiper(AT)aol.com
>Destin, Florida
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid?
From: greg.gillson(AT)EXGATE.TEK.COM
Date: 25 Feb 2004 12:49pm
I believe the duck is probably a Ring-necked x scaup(sp.), similar to ones
reported near Eugene and west of Portland, last month.
The back appears slightly gray. The pale subterminal band on the bill is
like Ring-necked Duck, as is the crown.
See photos and discussion:
http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/hybrid_duck.htm
<http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/hybrid_duck.htm>
Greg Gillson
greg(AT)thebirdguide.com <mailto:greg(AT)thebirdguide.com>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Barrow's Goldeneye
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 1:42pm
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I don't know what prompted Brian Monk's question but it might be worth
mentioning that some of Icelandic Barrow's Goldeneyes may disperse
further afield, particularly in successful breeding years. These 'excess
birds' could be a possible source of vagrants to Britain and elsewhere
in Northern Europe (although escapes are an ever present issue) and also
to the Atlantic coasts of Canada and the USA. In the past we have seen
discussion on this forum of the extent of yellow on the bills of females
and I seem to recall that eastern birds (including Iceland?) TEND to
show less yellow than those from western states and provinces.
Whether Icelandic birds form a continuous population with those from
Labrador and NE Quebec is, I would imagine, still an open question. Can
anyone (Bruce Mctavish, maybe) comment on the current breeding status in
Labrador and Greenland? The AOU checklist qualifies these as "probably"
and "formerly" respectively! David Sibley (original addition of his
field guide) highlights a fairly large area on the north coast of
Labrador and NE corner of Quebec towards Cape Chidley, as breeding range.
Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City
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Subject: Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid?
From: Michael Dossett <phainopepla(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 1:58pm
I have to respectfully disagree with your analysis,
Greg.
I was doing a birdathon, stopped by this pond and saw
the bird later the same morning after Scott Downes
had. The back really was black black, not grayish at
all as it appears in the photo. The sides are also
very white with little or no hint of gray indicating
possible Scaup or Ring-necked Duck heritage.
As for whether this bird is really a Tufted or a
Tufted x Ring-necked I'm curious what opinions are.
The fact that the sides are so white and really didn't
show gray seems to be contrary to what I've heard
about most TUDU x RNDU hybrids such as the one at:
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/nof/galleri/spesial/19970101.php
The shape of the flank patches also on the WA bird is
closer to TUDU than in these photos.
Finally, the bill really doesn't look all that
different from photos here:
http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/tudu/tudu.htm
and the head shape and bill weren't terribly different
from the birds in this photo.
http://students.washington.edu/idaeus/unsorted/TUDU.jpg
I'm still on the fence about this bird and would like
to see the arguments either way. I can see how head
shape might be explained by a missing or short tuft
and the rest of the bird's markings (strong black and
white, not gray as it appears in the photo) really
seem to point more in favor of TUDU than an unusual
hybrid to me.
Michael Dossett
Seattle, WA
phainopepla(AT)yahoo.com
--- greg.gillson(AT)EXGATE.TEK.COM wrote:
> I believe the duck is probably a Ring-necked x
> scaup(sp.), similar to ones
> reported near Eugene and west of Portland, last
> month.
>
> The back appears slightly gray. The pale subterminal
> band on the bill is
> like Ring-necked Duck, as is the crown.
>
> See photos and discussion:
> http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/hybrid_duck.htm
>
<http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/hybrid_duck.htm>
>
> Greg Gillson
> greg(AT)thebirdguide.com <mailto:greg(AT)thebirdguide.com>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Barrow's Goldeneye
From: Kenn Kaufman <kenn.kaufman(AT)WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 2:01pm
Angus Wilson wrote:
> Whether Icelandic birds form a continuous population with those
> from Labrador and NE Quebec is, I would imagine, still an open
> question. Can anyone (Bruce Mctavish, maybe) comment on the
> current breeding status in Labrador and Greenland? The AOU
> checklist qualifies these as "probably" and "formerly" respectively!
> David Sibley (original addition of his field guide) highlights a fairly
> large area on the north coast of Labrador and NE corner of
> Quebec towards Cape Chidley, as breeding range.
see: Robert et al. 2000. The breeding range of the Barrow's Goldeneye in
eastern North America. Wilson Bulletin 112 (1): 1-7. This paper identifies
the major breeding range in eastern Canada as being in the Laurentian
Highlands of Quebec. I don't have copies of other field guides here to
check so I don't know what their maps show, but my range map (Kaufman Focus
Guides: Birds of North America, 2000) reflects the information in the paper
by Robert et al.
Kenn Kaufman
Tucson, AZ
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Reply: Tufted Duck or hybrid?
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 3:29pm
Hi
I would be very confident in saying this is not a Tufted Duck.
The headshape is very unlike Tufted and reminiscent of Ring-necked Duck.
The 'high' flank is unlike Tufted
The 'tall in the water' body profile is unlike Tufted
The bill shape/pattern is midway between Ring-necked and Tufted
A Ring-necked DuckXTufted Duck hybrid would have no reason to show a grey
back, so if it was black in life (I'm happy to accept that was the case),
then that's fine. If it was a little grey (despite looking black in the
field), that wouldn't be surprising either, as it could be a 'throwback'
feature.
However, if the grey on the back was true to the photo, it would be worth
leaving open the option of Ring-necked DuckXScaup sp. (Lesser or Greater) as
a potential 'better fit' parentage
I saw an extremely similar bird in Galway, Ireland, last week, which was a
(presumed) TuftedXGreater Scaup hybrid. I have a very poor quality jpeg
which I will happily forward to anyone interested (or to post on a website)
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid?
From: Phil Jeffrey <phil(AT)XRAY2.MSKCC.ORG>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 3:59pm
[I sent the gist of this message earlier to Scott privately, but wanted to
comment on Michael Dossett's message more publically]
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, Michael Dossett wrote:
> As for whether this bird is really a Tufted or a
> Tufted x Ring-necked I'm curious what opinions are.
My instant impression of the bird is that I would not, based on this one
photo, be inclined to call this a pure Tufted Duck. That head shape seems
very wrong and I'm of the opinion that Tufted Ducks really don't look like
that under conditions that I've viewed them under. I've seen a few
thousand under variable lighting conditions, but it's been a few years
since I've last looked at numbers of them. I also feel that the bill
shows are more pronounced terminal pale band than I would expect for
Tufted, although if the head shape were more appropriate I perhaps
wouldn't feel this was a deal breaker.
Although I agree that Scott's picture of the duck doesn't show significant
gray on the sides or back, I have to say that the head is more or less in
profile there, and in:
> and the head shape and bill weren't terribly different
> from the birds in this photo.
>
> http://students.washington.edu/idaeus/unsorted/TUDU.jpg
the photos in that URL the birds are certainly not in profile - the
flatter edge is just as likely to come from the cheek as the back of the
head. Unless the WA duck is an anomalous image, the flat back to the head
rings false for pure Tufted Duck and makes me strongly suspect Ring-necked
in it's recent ancestry. Tufted Duck head shape is relatively smoothly
rounded, closer to Greater Scaup than Lesser Scaup, (really shown quite
well in http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/tudu/tudu.htm - in fact the
second image down the page is in quite striking contrast to the WA bird).
I'm not sure I agree with Ring-necked Duck X Scaup, but I certainly don't
agree with pure Tufted Duck, even though I'll grant you that single photos
may be deceptive.
Regards
Phil Jeffrey
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Jeffrey | |
| Crystallography Facility Manager | If you lie to the compiler, |
| Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, NYC | it will get its revenge |
| phil(AT)xray2.mskcc.org | - Henry Spencer |
| Voice: (212) 639 8547 Fax: (212) 717 3135 | |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Barrow's Goldeneye
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 4:45pm
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Many thanks to Kenn for pointing out this useful paper. It would seem
that Barrow's Goldeneyes are breeding much further south than I at
least, had realized! In answer to my own question, I have snipped a
paragraph from the terse introduction.
> A single breeding observation was recorded in Greenland in the
> nineteenth century; however, no observations have been reported for at
> least the last 30 years (Boertmann 1994
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-boertmann1>;).
> A few thousand Barrow's Goldeneyes are known to winter in northeastern
> North America, particularly in the St. Lawrence estuary, Quebec (Reed
> and Bourget 1977
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-reed1>,
> Savard 1990
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-savard3>;),
> and a breeding population has recently been suspected in southern
> Quebec (Savard and Cormier 1995
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-savard1>;;
> Gauthier and Aubry 1996
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-gauthier1>;;
> Savard and Dupuis, in press). Many authors (e.g., Palmer 1976
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-palmer1>,
> Bellrose 1980
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-bellrose1>,
> Godfrey 1986
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-godfrey1>,
> del Hoyo et al. 1992
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-delhoyo1>,
> American Ornithologists' Union 1998
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-aou1>;)
> state that the species breeds in northern Labrador and southwestern
> Greenland but there is little documentation and some of the records
> have been disputed (Todd 1963
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-todd1>;).
> Apparently, as suggested by Scott and Rose (1996)
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-scott1>
> and Hagemeijer and Blair (1997)
>
<http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0043-5643&volume=112&issue=01&page=0001#i0043-5643-112-01-0001-hagemeijer1>,
> the assumption is that the Barrow's Goldeneyes wintering in the St.
> Lawrence estuary and elsewhere in Atlantic Canada and the U.S.
> originate from these Arctic breeding areas.
With this set up, their field work and radio telemetry reveals that
Barrow's Goldeneyes are actually reasonably common breeders on
freshwater lakes and ponds along the northshore of the St Lawrence River
Estuary, with areas of high density near the towns of Sept Iles and
Mingan (southern portion of the Laurentian Highlands) in Quebec.
For anyone who is interested, here is the full citation and abstract.
Michel Robert, 4 Daniel Bordage, Jean-Pierre L. Savard, Guy Fitzgerald,
and François Morneau (2000) The Breeding Range Of The Barrow's Goldeneye
In Eastern North America. Wilson Bulletin 112(1): 1-7.
ABSTRACT: The breeding range of Barrow's Goldeneye (Bucephala
islandica) is largely restricted to northwestern North America, and
little is known of the small population that winters in eastern Canada.
Based on weak evidence, this eastern population was thought to nest
mainly in northern Labrador. Our May 1990 to 1998 surveys identified a
breeding area in the forest regions of the Quebec Laurentian Highlands.
We observed Barrow's Goldeneyes on 137 lakes and 5 rivers, of which
95.2% were along the north shore of the St. Lawrence estuary and gulf.
The species was found mainly on small lakes ( 10 ha) at greater than 500
m elevation. Most occupied lakes (96.5%) were within 100 km of the St.
Lawrence River and 48.9% of them were headwater lakes. Four broods
observed in 1998 represent the first eastern North American
documentation of breeding. By means of satellite telemetry, 5 of 7 males
captured on the wintering grounds were relocated on the north shore of
the St. Lawrence River in May, 60-140 km inland from the estuary and
gulf. Each male spent 34-50 days at its respective site, presumably with
a mate. The north shore of the estuary and gulf may be the core breeding
area for Barrow's Goldeneyes wintering along the St. Lawrence River.
You live and learn!
Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City
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Subject: Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid?
From: Scott Downes <downess(AT)CHARTER.NET>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 5:00pm
Thanks for the discussion, both private and publically. I wanted to briefly
put a couple of comments in that I forgot to mention in my first post. The
back coloration is in fact a solid dark black color, the appearance of a
lighter back is a photo artifact. I found in my files a second photo that is
even poorer than the first, but does show a slightly different angle. It is
now on the webpage.
I did not mention the wing on my first description, the bird did fully
stretch its wing a few times and the coloration and pattern to the wings was
consistent with Tufted Duck. I feel strongly based on several features,
primarily the back coloration that this bird is not a scaup hybrid. There
may be a chance this bird is an abnormal Tufted Duck, but too many features
lean against that fact, that I'm am likely left with two options, the RNDU x
TUDU option or to leave this bird as a likely hybrid, but officially
unidentified. I'm not sure which.
Thanks for all the comments and for future comments (this by no means needs
to be end of discussion).
Here is the link again if people need it.
http://webpages.charter.net/downess/Tufted_Duck.html
Scott Downes
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid?
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 11:33pm
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:57:18 -0800, Scott Downes <downess(AT)CHARTER.NET>
wrote:
>Thanks for the discussion, both private and publically. I wanted to briefly
>put a couple of comments in that I forgot to mention in my first post. The
>back coloration is in fact a solid dark black color, the appearance of a
>lighter back is a photo artifact. I found in my files a second photo that is
>even poorer than the first, but does show a slightly different angle. It is
>now on the webpage.
>I did not mention the wing on my first description, the bird did fully
>stretch its wing a few times and the coloration and pattern to the wings was
>consistent with Tufted Duck. I feel strongly based on several features,
>primarily the back coloration that this bird is not a scaup hybrid. There
>may be a chance this bird is an abnormal Tufted Duck, but too many features
>lean against that fact, that I'm am likely left with two options, the RNDU x
>TUDU option or to leave this bird as a likely hybrid, but officially
>unidentified. I'm not sure which.
>Thanks for all the comments and for future comments (this by no means needs
>to be end of discussion).
>Here is the link again if people need it.
>http://webpages.charter.net/downess/Tufted_Duck.html
Cast my vote for hybrid. The head shape is just wrong for Tufted Duck and
strongly suggestive of Ring-necked Duck. The back may have appeared solid
black in the field, but looks gray in the photos and shows marked contrast
between the gray back and the black head. Both photos show this contrast,
which makes it hard to judge what photographic effect is involved.
Here is a photo I took 14 February 2004 at Lake Merritt, Oakland,
California.
http://home.pacbell.net/robbie22/Photos/rnduxscsp2142591.jpg
From a distance the back looked blackish, but on close inspection was
actually heavily vermiculated. I concluded that this bird was a hybrid
between Ring-necked Duck and Scaup sp.
More photos of this apparent hybrid and discussion is at:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=12827
...however membership in birdforum.net may be required. Membership is
free, but I've heard complaints that it's time consuming to fill out their
forms.
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
California Birding & new rarities http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Tufted Duck or hybrid?
From: Simon Woolley <skw(AT)WINCOLL.AC.UK>
Date: 26 Feb 2004 12:55am
From a European perspective, this is absolutely NOT a TUDU!
Quite what it is I find harder to say, but it looks very much as though some
RND genes are in there - but then there's that green head sheen!
But the jizz and shape are all wrong for TUDU - so I'm with the 'not that'
camp.
Simon
UK
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On Behalf Of
greg.gillson(AT)EXGATE.TEK.COM
Sent: 25 February 2004 19:49
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tufted Duck or hybrid?
I believe the duck is probably a Ring-necked x scaup(sp.), similar to ones
reported near Eugene and west of Portland, last month.
The back appears slightly gray. The pale subterminal band on the bill is
like Ring-necked Duck, as is the crown.
See photos and discussion:
http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/hybrid_duck.htm
<http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/hybrid_duck.htm>
Greg Gillson
greg(AT)thebirdguide.com <mailto:greg(AT)thebirdguide.com>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: A Gull - No! A Goose - Florida
From: Noel Wamer <nwamer(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 26 Feb 2004 11:15am
http://bkpass.tripod.com/GreaterWhitefrontedGoose.htm
This individual seems to show characteristics of the Greenland breeding
population - flavirostris. To my knowledge this form has not been
previously reported from Florida. Any comments about this bird will be
appreciated.
Origin Caveat - This apparently tame bird is currently present on a lake in
urban Orlando, Florida.
Noel Wamer
Jacksonville, Florida
Later...
Noel Wamer
Jacksonville, FL, US
The badbirdz blog - http://www.badbirdz.com/weblog/
Mosaics by Noel & Terry - http://home.comcast.net/~terrywest/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: ID Knot known...
From: Swamphen <speedyg(AT)SWAMPHEN.NET>
Date: 27 Feb 2004 8:52am
Howdy folks,
This picture has been stirring up debate on the FLORIDABIRDS-L list. Is it
an aberrant Red Knot...or Florida's first Great Knot?
http://bkpass.tripod.com/ID_THIS_BIRD.htm
-S.P.McCool
Crawfordville, Wakulla County, Florida
http://www.swamphen.net/
USDA Zone 8B - Sunset Zone 28 - Heat Zone 9
-------------------------------------------
There's no such thing as being 'mildly
trampled' by an elephant! - Col. Craig
Boddington
-------------------------------------------
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.596 / Virus Database: 379 - Release Date: 2/26/2004
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID Knot known...
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 27 Feb 2004 10:18am
It would be good to have better photos particular of the breast pattern.
Great Knots tend to show a more marked pectoral band (not so sure in
winter plumage). The well-marked loral line is a strike against Great
Knot, since Red Knot tends to show a better-marked loral line/eye-line.
I think the dark shoulder patch is mildly supportive of Great Knot. My
experience is more with juv, summer plumage, and molting birds so not so
familiar with winter adults. However, I don't see a convincing case for
Great Knot based on the photos.
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Swamphen
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 7:55 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] ID Knot known...
Howdy folks,
This picture has been stirring up debate on the FLORIDABIRDS-L list. Is
it
an aberrant Red Knot...or Florida's first Great Knot?
http://bkpass.tripod.com/ID_THIS_BIRD.htm
-S.P.McCool
Crawfordville, Wakulla County, Florida
http://www.swamphen.net/
USDA Zone 8B - Sunset Zone 28 - Heat Zone 9
-------------------------------------------
There's no such thing as being 'mildly
trampled' by an elephant! - Col. Craig
Boddington
-------------------------------------------
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.596 / Virus Database: 379 - Release Date: 2/26/2004
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID Knot known...
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 27 Feb 2004 10:47am
I could be naiive here (I've never seen Great Knot), but the only difference
I see is that the bird is drooping its wings in a manner seemingly abnormal
for any shorebird (illness or injury?) thus exposing a pale rump. A Great
Knot, it seems, would appear noticeably larger next to a Red Knot, with a
longer and thicker bill, with a more marked breast and less conspicuous eye
line.
Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI 48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Swamphen" <speedyg(AT)SWAMPHEN.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 10:55 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] ID Knot known...
> Howdy folks,
>
> This picture has been stirring up debate on the FLORIDABIRDS-L list. Is it
> an aberrant Red Knot...or Florida's first Great Knot?
>
> http://bkpass.tripod.com/ID_THIS_BIRD.htm
>
> -S.P.McCool
> Crawfordville, Wakulla County, Florida
> http://www.swamphen.net/
> USDA Zone 8B - Sunset Zone 28 - Heat Zone 9
> -------------------------------------------
> There's no such thing as being 'mildly
> trampled' by an elephant! - Col. Craig
> Boddington
> -------------------------------------------
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.596 / Virus Database: 379 - Release Date: 2/26/2004
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Black Brant hybrid?
From: Gunter De Smet <gunter.de.smet(AT)PANDORA.BE>
Date: 27 Feb 2004 11:21am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi,
An odd-looking 1st calendar year Branta bernicla was photographed at =
Uitkerke, province of West-Vlaanderen, Belgium on 16 December 2003.
Although this individual certainly shows some similarity to Black Brant =
B. b. nigricans, many observers believe that the upperparts are too pale =
and the fringes to wide for a pure Black Brant.=20
An account of this, it may well be a hybrid with Black Brant as one of =
its parents. I have no first hand experience with hybrids and I have =
only seen few Black Brants. The bird is, however, quite unlike juveniles =
hrota x bernicla (recently photographed in the Netherlands).
Could such an individual still be within the variation of Black Brant? =
(It is definitely beyond the variation I am personally aware of in =
nominate bernicla; mind that the variation of nominate bernicla is =
important and some extreme individuals are not that easy to tell from =
1st calendar year hrota.)
It superficially looks like Grey-bellied Brant, which would be a highly =
unlikely vagrant to Belgium. When comparing this individual to pictures =
in Garner & Millington (2001), however, there is some similarity to =
unidentified "grey-bellied" Brants photographed in Ireland. Could such =
birds be hrota x nigricans ? I have the impression, however, that these =
birds have browner upperparts than the Belgian bird.
The best match is most likely a series of pictures of juvenile bernicla =
x nigricans hybrids in the Netherlands. These pictures were published in =
Dutch Birding 14:64, 1992; 15: 61-63, 1993; 24:210-211, 2002 and van den =
Berg & Bosman (1999), p 50. I remember similar pictures from Britain.
Three good quality pictures of the Belgian bird can be found at
http://users.skynet.be/wielewaal/images/HDK-zwrotgans-1.jpg
http://users.skynet.be/wielewaal/images/HDK-zwrotgans-2.jpg
http://users.skynet.be/wielewaal/images/HDK-zwrotgans-3.jpg
I would appreciate any comments on the identification of this =
individual. The record will need to be assessed by our rarities =
committee: there are only two accepted records of Black Brant in Belgium =
(and hybrids are also assessed by the committee).
Best wishes,
Gunter De Smet
REFERENCES
Garner, M. & Millington, R. (2001) Grey-bellied Brant and the Dundrum =
conundrum. Birding World 14: 151-155.
van den Berg, A.B. & Bosman, C.A.W. (1999) Rare Birds of the =
Netherlands. GMB, Haarlem.
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID Knot known...
From: Matt Brady <podoces(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 28 Feb 2004 2:43am
Hello everyone. I saw several hundred Great Knots in
Krabi, Thailand a few weeks ago, and the thing that
struck me the most about them is their huge size.
They were just a tad smaller than a Greenshank, and
appeared larger than a Black-bellied Plover!! They
were immense Calidrids, and I'd imagine that they
would stand a good head taller than a Red Knot. The
larger, longer bills were quite apparent as well.
Unfortunately there weren't any Red Knots around for a
direct comparison. I really do not think that the FL
bird is a Great Knot. Good birding,
Matt Brady
Santa Cruz, CA/Bangkok, Thailand
__________________________________
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: David Roemer <dlroemer(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 28 Feb 2004 1:53pm
There is currently an Iceland/Thayer's type gull at
Kentucky Lake Dam in Kentucky which has been present
since late January. I would appreciate any thoughts
that can be shared regarding the identification of
this bird. Several images can be seen at the
following link.
http://www.biology.eku.edu/KOS/gullphotos2.html
Sincerely,
David L. Roemer
Bowling Green, Ky.
__________________________________
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 28 Feb 2004 2:27pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi Dave and ID Frontiers folk:
Ooh, this one might cause a spitting match.
I agree with the presentiments on the website. If there are Thayer's genes=20
in this thing, they are phenotypically few. The tertials are of slight=20
concern, for the reasons you stated. The secondary bar and tail band are ce=
rtainly=20
on the dark end of Iceland, but I think not outside the range of variation f=
or=20
that taxon (whatever that is, assuming it's not a hybrid mess). Even the=20
palest of Thayer's do not exhibit such whacking wide primary fringes as show=
n by=20
the Ohio River bird, and I've seen a fair few very pale ones (Colorado, Puer=
to=20
Pe=F1asco).
But, the question again comes down to, "How pure is pure?" This question ha=
s=20
two levels, one a records committee/personal level and the second a=20
theoretical/taxonomic level. If even some of the banter that I've heard and=
read over=20
the past couple of years about thayeri-kumleni-glaucoides is true, then the=20
whole system is a mess (surprise, surprise; they are large, white-headed gul=
ls,=20
right?).
The CA Bird Records Committee uses the Jehl hybrid index to accept or reject=
=20
American Oystercatcher reports (a bird too far on one side of this index is=20
considered a hybrid, but some intermediate characters are okay; if I have=20
misconstrued the CA system, I apologize, up front; granted, CA has the probl=
em of=20
the normally "intermediate" characters of the closest race, 'frazeri', but t=
hat=20
is beyond the scope, here). Assuming "hybridization" in what are currently=20
considered by the AOU as two separata species-level taxa, one can never be=20
certain (short of spinning/melting the birds genes; perhaps not even then) a=
s to=20
the "pureness" of any individual Thayer's/Kumlein's Gull. In fact, one prob=
ably=20
cannot do the same for any individual Western or Glaucous-winged Gull. So,=20
what is a Committee (or an individual birder) willing to accept as pure? I=20
would lean heavily on the Iceland Gull Man's (B. Mactavish) assessment, but=20=
in=20
the end, it's a committee/personal decision.
Respectfully,
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 28 Feb 2004 8:15pm
It is notoriously difficult to assess photos of claimed Thayer's and
Icelands Gulls, since many features used to seperate the two entities can
be altered by lighting, exposure, angles, etc.
However, photos "U" and "Q" seems to clearly indicate that the bird is a
Thayer's for the following reasons: (1) fairly solid-coloured tail; (2)
obvious secondary bar; and (3) darkish primaries.
If anyone thinks that this bird is a bit on the light side, it should be
pointed out that by this time of year both "species" can appear to look
lighter than they normally would earlier in the season (as in fall, for
example). The author makes several references to the bird being too pale
for thayeri, but correct for Iceland -- however, such statements may be
correct for fall, but do not necessarily apply to this time of year and /
or to birds that are starting to pale out due to natural wear.
And if they happened to have spent the winter on some beach along the
Gulf of Mexico, the effect of sun-bleaching can make either species
appear virtually white in appearance (although the secondary bar and tail
features of Thayer's usually remain intact, since such features are
covered up when the bird is loafing on those bright southern beaches).
With this Kentucky bird, there certainly is no extreme evidence of
sun-bleaching, but in some photos it appears that there might be a
limited amount.
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: Steve Hampton <shampton(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 28 Feb 2004 9:29pm
This bird seems way outside the typical Thayer's here in California. If
I saw such a bird here, it would stand out like a sore thumb and attract
considerable attention. It's posture is more dovelike, the bill more
petite, the upperparts with much more white, the color of the markings
much creamier coffee, the tertials much paler, and the primaries and
tail with much more white. The flight shots show an interesting tail
band half-way up the rectrices, which I've seen in Glaucous x Herring.
...which gets me to my final point. Assuming this bird is good for
Kumlien's (and I think it's much closer to that than to Thayer's), many
now consider all birds between pure Thayer's and pure nominate Iceland
(L.g. glaucoides) to be part of a massive "Kumlien's" hybrid swarm-- in
which case there is no such thing as "pure Kumlien's" and we can easily
say this bird is a Thayer's x Iceland hybrid, aka "Kumlien's Gull"
(using paranthesis and this much broader definition of "Kumlien's").
It is a very pretty bird!
Steve Hampton
Steve Hampton
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID Knot known...
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 28 Feb 2004 11:22pm
on 2/28/04 1:33 AM, Matt Brady at podoces(AT)YAHOO.COM wrote:
> Hello everyone. I saw several hundred Great Knots in
> Krabi, Thailand a few weeks ago, and the thing that
> struck me the most about them is their huge size.
> They were just a tad smaller than a Greenshank, and
> appeared larger than a Black-bellied Plover!! They
> were immense Calidrids, and I'd imagine that they
> would stand a good head taller than a Red Knot. The
> larger, longer bills were quite apparent as well.
> Unfortunately there weren't any Red Knots around for a
> direct comparison. I really do not think that the FL
> bird is a Great Knot. Good birding,
>
> Matt Brady
> Santa Cruz, CA/Bangkok, Thailand> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
I can't agree regarding the comment about the size of Great Knots. I have
seen them on three continents. They are a bit larger than a Red Knot, but
certainly much smaller than a Black-bellied Plover. I saw nothing in the
photo of the Florida bird that would indicate that it is a Great Knot. I
agree witht he comment above about bill length. Great Knots also have a
different profile than the bird in the photo from Florida. To me Great
Knots appear a bit more heavy chested. It would be useful of course if the
Florida photos were a bit better.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 29 Feb 2004 7:31am
I agree that this bird looks very much like the things I call Iceland/Kumliens
here along the
east coast in the Delaware Valley. As others have
said too pale, tertials too pale, Ps too pale, head/bill dove-like. Though this
individual is on
the darker end (though not an extreme) of the spectrum.
My understanding of the hybrid swarm hypothesis
for Kumliens was that the name pertains to
a population which undergoes periodic infusions
of either glaucoides or thayeri genes in response
to the availability of contact zones freed up or
locked up by ice in the Arctic. Such that the
influence of the 2 gene-pools glaucoides and
thayeri are seperated by thousands of years
in some cases. So at least in part kumliens is a
stable hybrid population which sustains itself
without first generation input of it's respective
parent populations. I guess it would be more properly called an introgressed
swarm rather
than a hybrid swarm.
Correction to this interpretation are welcome.
Matt
<<< David Roemer <dlroemer(AT)YAHOO.COM> 2/28 3:57p >>>
There is currently an Iceland/Thayer's type gull at
Kentucky Lake Dam in Kentucky which has been present
since late January. I would appreciate any thoughts
that can be shared regarding the identification of
this bird. Several images can be seen at the
following link.
http://www.biology.eku.edu/KOS/gullphotos2.html
Sincerely,
David L. Roemer
Bowling Green, Ky.
__________________________________
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Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 29 Feb 2004 1:47pm
Here we go again. Most years about this time the reports of potential
1st year Kumlien's Gull in the west start popping up. In most cases the
mere presence of a dark secondary bar, and relatively strongly marked
tertials, outer primaries and tail band are out of proportion with the
over paleness of the bird for Kumlien's. Kumlien's in fresh 1st winter
plumage often show quite dark outer primaries, dark brown washed
tertials and a broad smooth brown tail band. These superficially
resemble Thayer's Gull, but they aren't as deeply coloured. This becomes
apparent when fading time comes, starting in late January in
Newfoundland. When Kumlien's fade everything goes at the same time. The
outer primaries, tertials and tail band have very little lasting power.
By April nearly all 1st year Kumlien's have immaculate bleached white or
whitish-brown primaries. It is as if Kumlien's Gull were spray painted
and Thayer's painted with a brush. The spray paint comes off easier than
the paint brushed-on in the weather. The secondary bar is not
particularly strong on this bird but the fact that it is present at all
on a faded bird is stroke against Kumlien's.
It may not look right for a Thayer's Gull to the west coast people but I
think it looks far less right for a Kumlien's. As Alan Wormington
suggests, it could have spent the first part of the winter in a bright
sunny location like the white beaches of Gulf of Mexico Coast. I vote
against Kumlien's Gull.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Roemer
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 5:13 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID Assistance
There is currently an Iceland/Thayer's type gull at
Kentucky Lake Dam in Kentucky which has been present
since late January. I would appreciate any thoughts
that can be shared regarding the identification of
this bird. Several images can be seen at the
following link.
http://www.biology.eku.edu/KOS/gullphotos2.html
Sincerely,
David L. Roemer
Bowling Green, Ky.
__________________________________
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Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 29 Feb 2004 2:59pm
The kentucky bird, at first glance, looks too pale for thayeri, especially
the primaries which show too much pale fringing. However the bird looks
somewhat worn and faded so plumage tone is a little misleading (?)
The problem I have with the bird being kumlieni is the very short-legged,
relatively stout-bill, and somewhat relatively short-primary projection
compare to kumlieni.
The flight shots show a diffuse secondary bar, darkish outer primaries and
primary coverts, combined with a uniformly coloured tail all of which seem
to push me towards thayeri.
If we darkened up the plaumage a little, the tail and secondary bar and
primary coverts would be darker and more thayeri like.
I'm not sure if this is a pure Thayer's Gull, but I have more problem with
it being a pure kumlieni.
Julian Hough,
CT, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roemer" <dlroemer(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 3:43 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID Assistance
> There is currently an Iceland/Thayer's type gull at
> Kentucky Lake Dam in Kentucky which has been present
> since late January. I would appreciate any thoughts
> that can be shared regarding the identification of
> this bird. Several images can be seen at the
> following link.
>
> http://www.biology.eku.edu/KOS/gullphotos2.html
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David L. Roemer
> Bowling Green, Ky.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 29 Feb 2004 3:54pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings All
The Kentucky Gull, in its wing and tail patterns, closely resembles birds I
see in Washington most Aprils. I have assumed they are faded Thayer's Gulls. I
rarely (if ever) see such birds as early as February, but then again, our sun
isn't exactly that of the southeastern US.
As a brief aside -- by May it is not unusual for 1st year Glaucous-winged
Gulls, particularly those on our outer coast, to become very white. In summer,
I've seen birds so worn as to be completely white. These very pale
Glaucous-wingeds, especially if they have some pink on the bills, are
occasionally
identified as Glaucous Gulls. Interestingly, almost all of the faded GWGUs have
some
medium gray on their scapulars.
Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
Everett Washington.
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Subject: Great White Egret showing 'modesta' features in
Spain
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricard_Guti=E9rrez?= <gutarb(AT)TERRA.ES>
Date: 29 Feb 2004 4:32pm
Hello all
I've included in the website http://www.rarebirdspain.net a photopage with
the recent sighting of a Great White Egret (Egretta alba) showing characters
of the race 'modesta': different structure, black bill, red legs...
It is the 3rd for Spain but there is still some say 'puzzling' about these
birds status and ID in Europe.
For that reason, it would be interesting to receive any comments from those
having seen modesta in their usual ranges to see if those 'regular' modesta
fit the birds we've seen here in Spain. There is also another page in the
site with the other bird photos and in the Association of European Rarities
Committees (AERC) http://www.aerc.be there is a gallery on some european
sightings of these birds as well.
The rarebirdspain website includes also the latest bird news, with photos
and some gull photo pages
Best wishes and thank you
Ricard Gutiérrez
http://www.rarebirdspain.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: Robert Hughes <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 29 Feb 2004 6:17pm
> It may not look right for a Thayer's Gull to the west coast people but I
> think it looks far less right for a Kumlien's. As Alan Wormington
> suggests, it could have spent the first part of the winter in a bright
> sunny location like the white beaches of Gulf of Mexico Coast.
I have a hard time believing that a first year Thayer's Gull, which is a
fairly dark bird to begin with, could be as washed-out as the Kentucky Lake
bird by mid-February. On the Surfbirds website, just below the photos of the
Iceland/Thayer's Gull in question, is a photo of a first year Thayer's Gull
taken at the same time and place that seems to be holding its plumage fine.
Robert Hughes
Chicago
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Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 29 Feb 2004 6:53pm
This is precisely the argument. It depends on where the bird was
wintering. If a Thayer's winters in a cool, cloudy, environment, it
should hold its features throughout the winter. If it winters in a
sunny, hot location such as the Gulf of Mexico or western Mexico, by
April it could look entirely pure white.
And this process does not affect only Thayer's, but any and all large
gulls that winter in the south. Here at Point Pelee (Lake Erie), every
year in April there is always a big influx of immature Herring Gulls that
are ratty-looking, with heavy feather wear, and are often very pale in
appearance (due to sun-bleaching). It is during this time that a few
Thayer's also turn up, and they are often almost pure white in overall
appearance. I have excellent photos of such a bird, and I will try to
post them.
For an excellent article on sun-bleaching, I refer the reader the Birders
Journal 10: 198-208 (2001). Specifically look at page 205 which shows a
very dark juvenile Thayer's taken in late November (top) and another that
is virtually pure white taken in mid-April (bottom).
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
*****************************
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:08:15 -0600 Robert Hughes
<rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM> writes:
> > It may not look right for a Thayer's Gull to the west coast people
> but I
> > think it looks far less right for a Kumlien's. As Alan Wormington
> > suggests, it could have spent the first part of the winter in a
> bright
> > sunny location like the white beaches of Gulf of Mexico Coast.
>
>
> I have a hard time believing that a first year Thayer's Gull, which
> is a
> fairly dark bird to begin with, could be as washed-out as the
> Kentucky Lake
> bird by mid-February. On the Surfbirds website, just below the
> photos of the
> Iceland/Thayer's Gull in question, is a photo of a first year
> Thayer's Gull
> taken at the same time and place that seems to be holding its
> plumage fine.
>
>
> Robert Hughes
> Chicago
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: Robert Hughes <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 29 Feb 2004 7:30pm
> This is precisely the argument. It depends on where the bird was
> wintering. If a Thayer's winters in a cool, cloudy, environment, it
> should hold its features throughout the winter. If it winters in a
> sunny, hot location such as the Gulf of Mexico or western Mexico, by
> April it could look entirely pure white.
There are a number of photos of first year Thayer's Gulls taken in January
and February from Texas and west Mexico on Martin Reid's website and these
birds aren't nearly as washed-out and white as the Kentucky Lake bird and
they retain a narrow pale fringe to their primaries. I think the best
explanation for the paleness and broad pale primary fringes on the Kentucky
Lake bird is the presence and influence of Iceland/Kumlien's Gull genes.
Robert Hughes
Chicago
website: http://theorniphile.info
IOS webmaster: http://www.illinoisbirds.org/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
Assistance
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 29 Feb 2004 11:25pm
> There are a number of photos of first year Thayer's Gulls taken in January
> and February from Texas and west Mexico on Martin Reid's website and these
> birds aren't nearly as washed-out and white as the Kentucky Lake bird and
> they retain a narrow pale fringe to their primaries. I think the best
> explanation for the paleness and broad pale primary fringes on the
Kentucky
> Lake bird is the presence and influence of Iceland/Kumlien's Gull genes.
A minority of otherwise pure-looking Thayer's on the west coast
start out with a lot of white around the primary tips similiar to
Kumlien's. See again (Oregon, early Nov) -
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/thayers2001.jpg
The primary tips on the Kentucky bird are obviously quite worn,
and potentially also at least somewhat sun-bleached. I think
if the above bird were as worn/faded on the primary tips it
would look similar.
As Steve Mlodinow indicated, the patterning and general pale
appearance of the Kentucky bird look just like some pale-end west
coast Thayer's, although birds this pale aren't typically encountered
till April or later. In May I've even seen the occasional very
worn/faded Thayer's with almost no pigment at all remaining
on the primary tips, and only just a hint of upperparts patterning
left. Not sure anyone can say whether these pale birds represent
actual introgression, or just normal variation in Thayer's, but I
don't see any reason the Kentucky bird couldn't be a prematurely
faded Thayer's. Structurally it's fine - well within range of
structural appearance for smaller birds.
Cheers,
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
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