ID-FRONTIERS for March 1-6, 2004

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: Black Brant hybrid?   Russell Wynn    Mon, 1 Mar 2004   3:30am   Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID Assistance   Dick Newell    Mon, 1 Mar 2004   3:44am   Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID Assistance   Martin Reid    Mon, 1 Mar 2004   4:38am   Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery   Dick Newell    Mon, 1 Mar 2004   5:28am   Re: Fwd: another Great Black-backed Gull photo   Matt Sharp    Mon, 1 Mar 2004   9:30am   Kentucky Lake Iceland/Thayer's Gull   David Roemer    Mon, 1 Mar 2004   11:53am   Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery   Norman D.van Swelm   Mon, 1 Mar 2004   12:20pm   Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID Assistance   Phillip Pickering    Mon, 1 Mar 2004   2:14pm   Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID Assistance   Norman D.van Swelm   Mon, 1 Mar 2004   5:11pm   Iceland/ Thayer's Gull problem   Ian Paulsen    Mon, 1 Mar 2004   5:30pm   Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID Assistance   GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM   Mon, 1 Mar 2004   5:32pm   Re: Iceland/Thayer's Hybrids   Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM   Mon, 1 Mar 2004   5:47pm   Re: Iceland/Thayer's Hybrids   Ross Silcock    Mon, 1 Mar 2004   6:09pm   Re: Iceland/ Thayer's Gull problem   Norman D.van Swelm   Tue, 2 Mar 2004   3:24am   Re: Iceland/Thayer's Hybrids   Norman D.van Swelm   Tue, 2 Mar 2004   3:24am   Re: Iceland/Thayer's Hybrids   Norman D.van Swelm   Tue, 2 Mar 2004   3:24am   Excellent new seabird ID sites   Angus Wilson    Tue, 2 Mar 2004   11:13am   kumlien's hybrid swarm theory   Steve Hampton    Tue, 2 Mar 2004   1:34pm   Re: kumlien's hybrid swarm theory   Angus Wilson    Tue, 2 Mar 2004   3:05pm   Major new paper on ID on American Herring Gull   wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU   Tue, 2 Mar 2004   8:45pm   Intriguing Gull in Denmark - Part 2   Dennis Broe Nielsen    Wed, 3 Mar 2004   5:22am   Large pale gull in Pennsylvania   Bill Etter    Wed, 3 Mar 2004   12:54pm   Another Iceland/Thayer's   Kevin McGowan    Fri, 5 Mar 2004   12:26pm   Hooded vs. Orchard orioles   Joseph Morlan    Sat, 6 Mar 2004   7:22pm

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Subject: Re: Black Brant hybrid?
From: Russell Wynn <rbw1(AT)SOC.SOTON.AC.UK>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 3:30am

Gunter

Have a look at my paper in British Birds (v.96, p.297-301, June 2003)
that has an example of first-winter nigricans x bernicla intergrades.
Your bird shows some similarities to these.

The marked contrast between the black neck sock and the
under/upperparts certainly suggests your bird is not pure nigricans;
this is backed up by the restricted flank patch which is not a clean
'frosty' white as in most nigricans. Also, the neck collar looks
quite weak at the front.

Evidence for some nigricans influence (as opposed to pure bernicla)
can be seen in the thicker neck collar with well-developed spokes
when viewed from the side, and also the rich rufous tones to the
upperparts.

However, bear in mind that this is obviously  a very complex issue
and that the birds' appearance may change through a winter due to
moult. If the birds were photographed earlier or later during their
stay then these should be examined also.

Best wishes

Russell Wynn, Hampshire, UK
--
Dr Russell B Wynn
Marine Geoscientist
Lead Co-ordinator UK-TAPS Group
Challenger Division
Southampton Oceanography Centre
European Way
Southampton
SO14 3ZH
U.K.

E-mail: rbw1(AT)soc.soton.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0)23 80596553 (office)
80596555 (secretary)
80595000 (switchboard)

http://www.soc.soton.ac.uk/CHD/staff_stu/Russel-Wynn/index.html
http://www.uk-taps.org


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Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
         Assistance
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)MACUNLIMITED.NET>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 3:44am

On 1/3/04 1:50 am, "Alan Wormington" <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM> wrote:

> This is precisely the argument.  It depends on where the bird was
> wintering.  If a Thayer's winters in a cool, cloudy, environment, it
> should hold its features throughout the winter.  If it winters in a
> sunny, hot location such as the Gulf of Mexico or western Mexico, by
> April it could look entirely pure white.
>
Like this Thayer's Gull from California?:
http://www.magikcircle.com/birds/image.asp?title_id=56

But, as Bruce Mactavish pointed out, this bird has still maintained the
melanin in its tail, secondaries and primaries.
Dick Newell, Cambridge, UK


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Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
         Assistance
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 4:38am

Dear all,
I take no hard position on this bird's ID, other than to say it is
somewhere in the thayeri-kumlieni spectrum.  I would recommend looking at
the images of kumlieni from Newfoundland in Jan/Feb at this fabulous web
resource:
http://www.aerc.be/KumliensGull/index.htm
I would also say that, IMO, the KY bird is not extremely worn on the wing
tips and seems to show no signs of significant wear in the coverts - which
also look as if they still have their intricate, sparse internal dark
markings.  In my experience of "white-winged-gull mimics" in Texas in Jan -
May, such birds have visible extensive wear and the bleaching usually
renders internal markings as blurry, faded or even invisible.
I feel that this bird looks rather similar to at least four birds from NF
(at the above web site) at the same time of year; are they considered to be
intergrades or within the variation of kumlieni?
All good stuff!
Martin

Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)MACUNLIMITED.NET>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 5:28am

re:
http://home.online.no/~ctiller/fugler.htm
http://www.nofnt.no/trond/Fugl/Laridae/californicus/index.htm
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ufo/4w_01b.php
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ufo/4w_01.php

I have been away for the last month, so I come very late to this discussion
- which seems to have the large majority of contributors favouring
albertensis. My qualifications are that I happen to live between 2 garbage
dumps in the UK where Caspian Gulls are regular throughout the winter - and
I have seen plenty of californicus (but not many albertensis). Caspian Gulls
vary as much as any other large gulls - especially in the immature stages.

While in the US, I have sometimes wondered how I would distinguish certain
CAGU's from Caspian Gull if they turned up in the UK - so I assume US
birders looking as Caspian Gulls in England might have the inverse problem
sometimes (see examples below).

Although I have to agree, that there are a number of features that are
remarkably like a California Gull, I also notice that very few contributors
have brought out what pro-cachinnans features the bird has. So, partly in a
spirit of devil's advocacy, I have to say that I have a problem with a
number of the pro-California features that have been pointed out, including
blue in the legs and being too dark for cachinnans - I cannot see these on
my screen.

The following I think are pro-cachinnans and possibly some are contra
California:
1. Wing-shape - the wings of a Caspian Gull are very distinctive in being
long, straight, parallel-sided, with a long arm to hand ratio - in fact they
resemble an albatross. California has a shorter arm and a longer hand. The
Norway Gull is typical cachinnans to my eye. See here for an illustration of
just how long the hand of California is relative to the arm:
http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/CAGUwing1.jpg
2. Black primary coverts: In 4CY (3rd winter), and sometimes older
cachinnans (and michahellis), these coverts are black not brown. The only
pictures that I can find on the internet of California show them as brown,
unlike the Norway Gull.
3. Large tail - cachinnans (and michahellis) have a noticeably large tail,
so although cachinnans has long wings, the fact that much of the length is
in the arm and the tail is long means that often (not always) the primary
extension is not as much as one might expect for a bird with such long wings
- as in the Norway bird.
4. Pure white tail - for a California of this age, I would expect some dark
in the tail.
5. The pale, whitish pink leg colour is typical and perfect for cachinnans.
Also cachinnans legs are noticably spindly when viewed from the front (or
rear) as in the Norway Gull.
6. The limey coloured bill is also perfect for cachinnans
7. The undersides of the inner primaries look pale - i.e. There is not as
much shadow as one might expect from a bird with darker primaries - however
this can be very dependent on the lighting.
8. On the question of the red gape - this is not a cachinnans feature,
however, it is not that compelling either. Here is a picture of an old world
(Finnish) dark-eyed Herring Gull with a reddish gape:
http://www.magikcircle.com/birds/image.asp?title_id=797
This gull comes from the land of "omissus" which might explain why it looks
so odd - would anybody go for California on this bird?

It has to be said that some cachinnans and some Californias are remarkably
similar, here are 2 quite different pairs of examples:

http://www.magikcircle.com/birds/image.asp?title_id=916
http://www.birdinfo.com/CaliforniaGull_0005.html#01

http://www.magikcircle.com/birds/image.asp?title_id=954
http://www.birdinfo.com/CaliforniaGull_0004.html#01

So, in conclusion, I think there is a way to go in proving this as a
California Gull and if I was forced to place my money now, I would vote for
an old world gull with at least a good dose of cachinnans genes.

What I would like to see to persuade me otherwise is a set of pictures of
sub-adult albertensis, in flight, to see whether they can take on a
wing-shape like cachinnans and to see whether a pattern of black on the
coverts and general appearance in any way matches the Norway bird. The
flying California's on Martin Reid's site, Steve Hampton's site and Google
Images look quite a bit different in shape from cachinnans, whereas the
Norway Gull looks perfectly OK.
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK


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Subject: Re: Fwd: another Great Black-backed Gull photo
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 9:30am

I never saw a response to this supposed hybrid and am 
wondering if that silence could be taken as acceptance 
of the bird as a hybrid.

It looked to me like a pale GBBG and not so far out of 
the range of variation to invoke the dreaded H word. 
I would like to hear an arguement as to why a hybrid.

As for the KY bird I agree that this bird, while obviously 
worn on the Ps, shows much less apparent wear on the 
wing coverts, and tertials, and that the Ps do not look 
as worn as the bleached out white looking birds (HEGU mainly)
that I begin to see now and which become more frequent 
into April in the Delaware Valley. 

I thought wear and bleaching go hand in hand. 
Do people in the THGU camp think that this bird is quite worn 
all over or that it is just bleached but not terribly worn on the 
coverts etc..

I do not know what the bird is, and judging
from west coast responses it it not too unusual for Thayers to be
so pale. However I also do not think it is unusual for kumliens to
be so dark on the Ps and tail, and that other wise the coverts, 
terts, scaps, body, and head are not showing as much melanin 
as some birds with whiter wings which I would unhesitantly call 
Kumliens, and unless this bird is bleached but not worn it is fairly 
typical of Kumliens in regards to those characters.

Struturally I think it is w/in the range of variation of both THGU and
Kumliens.

So ultimately I agree with Tony Leukering. There is nothing diagnostic 
here to place the bird into a specific box, so to a certain degree the ID
is a matter of personal choice and experience.

Matt Sharp


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Subject: Kentucky Lake Iceland/Thayer's Gull
From: David Roemer <dlroemer(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 11:53am

The response to the Ky. Lake bird has been great, and
with no general consensus as I'm sure we all expected.
 Wanting to be sure that everyone sees all the info
available on the bird, I wanted to mention that there
is another page on the KOS site dedicated to it if
you've missed it.  Here is the link, and you can go to
either page from here.

http://www.biology.eku.edu/KOS/gullphotos.html

The images obtained by Brainard Palmer-Ball on 25
January depict the bird as being slightly darker than
it actually was according to him.  The plumage is
somewhat richer than in late February as would be
expected, but the markings appear to be the same, with
the pale edges to the primaries appearing to be at
least as extensive and the tertials mostly white or
barred.  I believe this indicates that the present
look is not entirely due to wear/bleaching.

Also, I have supplied a couple of stills lifted from
video of pale Thayer's Gulls which I recorded at
Barkley Dam in Kentucky, one of an early winter bird,
the other being in late February.  An image of a
juvenile Thayer's obtained on the same date as the
bird in question is also published, and represents
what we typically see in Kentucky.  These images are
for comparison.

Thanks to everyone for the response, and maybe we can
all learn something from this.

David L. Roemer
Bowling Green, Kentucky

__________________________________
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Subject: Re: Large dark eyed gull mystery
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 12:20pm

Hi Dick and others,
As to cachinnans i.e. Caspian or Pontic Gull have a look at:

www.birdpix.nl
then go underneath the Nightheron picture where you'll find a number of
cachinnans pics if you click a number of times on:   meer recente foto's

http://www.illustrated-db-discography.nl/vogels/
here you'll find a number of fine pictures taken in Poland, beware that some
of the bids shown may be hybrids.

> re:
> http://home.online.no/~ctiller/fugler.htm
> http://www.nofnt.no/trond/Fugl/Laridae/californicus/index.htm
It takes some time but after a while you'll get convinced the Norwegian bird
is a California Gull!

Cheers, Norman


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Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
         Assistance
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 2:14pm

The Kentucky bird's plumage isn't in tatters, but I definitely
see a lot of wear. The primary tips are worn to points, the rect
tips show advanced fraying, and I can see the initial stages of  covert
and tertial tip fraying in spots. I think there's more than enough wear
to affect appearance, certainly on the primary tips, and probably
everywhere else to some extent both on the feather tips and likely
on the surfaces. Also, I'm not sure how you would accurately judge
level of bleaching, which could potentially be significant. This isn't
to say this bird didn't start out with a low pigment saturation level,
but I think it's likely significantly paler than it was in overall
appearance.

Some pale-end juv. Glaucous-winged go through a similar stage on
their way to becoming whitish - bird clearly becoming pale, with
primaries whitening, and showing significant fading to patterning
on all feathers, but while showing noticeable but not necessarily
extreme plumage wear. In other words at least some Glaucous-
winged turn whitish before they turn ratty. There are a few
around on the Oregon coast right now like that. In my experience
the same is true for at least some of the palest Thayer's-like birds
seen uncommonly but annually in Oregon. Again, I see nothing
about the Kentucky bird's patterning or structure that is really
outside the range of Thayer's-like birds encountered here. I know
that means little in resolving this issue since pale-end birds
seen on the west coast could also be intergrades, but I do think
the Kentucky bird could easily be well towards the Thayer's
end of the spectrum.

Cheers,

Phil


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Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
         Assistance
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 5:11pm

Every time a gull like the Kentucky gull pops up so does a hint to the
hybrid swarm theory concerning the origin of Kumlien's Gull. I made some
enquiries and I am happy to tell you that as yet there is no support
whatsoever from DNA studies for the theory. Perhaps there never will be, who
knows?
As for the bleaching of immature gull's plumages in spring it may be worth
reminding that there must be an individual element present since some gulls
seem to bleach more than others under the same circumstances. Of course the
timing of birth plays a role as well.
Norman


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Subject: Iceland/ Thayer's Gull problem
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 5:30pm

HI ALL:
 I have an easy solution to the Thayer's/ Iceland Gull id problem. Lump
Thayer's Gull with Iceland Gull. End of problem!

--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"


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Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Type Gull in Kentucky ID
         Assistance
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 1 Mar 2004 5:32pm

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Hi all:

I agree, in general, with Norman's comment about hatch timing being very
important in regards to wear, bleaching, and molt timing and extent (though he
didn't mention the last item in that series).  However, I would surmise that
there is little variation in hatch timing in both thayeri and kumleini.
Obviously
a high-artic breeding species has very little leeway in getting its young off
the nest and independent before weather socks in.  Birds of the taxa that
hatch after some (I would guess) relatively early date would, I surmise,
experience greatly reduced survival rates.  I cannot imagine that there is even
a
month of latitude in successful hatching/fledging dates for these birds.

Respectfully,

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

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Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Hybrids
From: Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 1 Mar 2004 5:47pm

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     I was waiting to see when the juggernaut of DNA evidence would rear its
massive head and charge into this fray.

     I, admittedly, have seen very few Thayer's or Iceland Gulls (less than a
dozen each), but the arguments presented here about this bird have not in the
slightest made this an easier subject to understand!  AAAARRRGGGHHH!!!!
Them's the brakes, I guess.

    There is one possible solution, though.  Several years ago I was standing
on the banks of the Susquehanna River, below the Conowingo Dam, watching what
the experts had deemed was a Slaty-backed Gull.  "There's the bird!" some one
said, and we all watched.  Then one gentleman standing to my right said, "Now
if it would just fly over here and drop dead right beside us!"  Being an
avian veterinarian and (more importantly) new to gulls, I took exception, and
he
amended his statement to, "Well, it could just have a seizure for a couple of
minutes so we could get some feather samples!"  The gentleman was Paul Lehman,
and I know more about gulls now.  Paul, I now agree with you.  Completely.

     Why should we (we being the scientific community) hesitate to collect
specimens when these specimens are only going to help us further our knowledge
base? Current questions may not be answerable with past specimen series, as
this material may have been collected with different questions in mind, and/or
possibly degraded beyond usefulness to modern biochemical technique.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not for the wholesale slaughter of difficult to
ID groups just for the sake of an ID.  But in certain cases (i.e.
thayeri/kumlieni/glaucoides) DNA analysis could prove completely invaluable in
furthering
our understanding of what these birds truly are.  Just 2 cents.

Brian C. Monk, DVM
monkpiper(AT)aol.com
Destin, Florida

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Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Hybrids
From: Ross Silcock <silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com>
Date: 1 Mar 2004 6:09pm

Hi all:
From what I gather regarding these gulls (and probably all large
white-headed gulls?) the genetic differences between them are very small and
of little use in determining whether a single gull is, for example,
"Thayer's", "Iceland", or "Kumlien's".  Unfortunate, but true?
Ross

Ross Silcock
P.O. Box 57
Tabor, Iowa, USA  51653
silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com
New Zealand Land and Pelagic Bird Tours
www.rosssilcock.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Iceland/Thayer's Hybrids

>      I was waiting to see when the juggernaut of DNA evidence would rear
its
> massive head and charge into this fray.


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Subject: Re: Iceland/ Thayer's Gull problem
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 2 Mar 2004 3:24am

Ian Paulsen:>  I have an easy solution to the Thayer's/ Iceland Gull id
problem. Lump
> Thayer's Gull with Iceland Gull. End of problem!<

end of using the old brain as well... Eh?
Norman


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Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Hybrids
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 2 Mar 2004 3:24am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    Brian C. Monk writes:>  Why should we (we being the scientific community)
hesitate to collect specimens when these specimens are only going to help us
further our knowledge base? Current questions may not be answerable with past
specimen series, as this material may have been collected with different
questions in mind, and/or possibly degraded beyond usefulness to modern
biochemical technique.

      Don't get me wrong, I'm not for the wholesale slaughter of difficult to ID
 groups just for the sake of an ID.  But in certain cases (i.e.
thayeri/kumlieni/glaucoides) DNA analysis could prove completely invaluable in
furthering our understanding of what these birds truly are.  Just 2 cents.<

  The interesting thing about DNA Brian, is, that you don't have to kill anyone
to be able to get it! As far as Thayer's, Kumlien's and Iceland Gulls are
concerned the problem is that their breeding colonies are usually too
inaccessible to get blood samples and it is in the breeding areas where one
would prefer to sample.
  Norman

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Subject: Re: Iceland/Thayer's Hybrids
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 2 Mar 2004 3:24am

Ross Silcock wrote:> From what I gather regarding these gulls (and probably
all large
> white-headed gulls?) the genetic differences between them are very small
and
> of little use in determining whether a single gull is, for example,
> "Thayer's", "Iceland", or "Kumlien's".  Unfortunate, but true?<

Very true Ross but you can only come to that conclusion after having
analysed a decent amount of samples and for the above gulls they are not
available. Besides the developement of analysing techniques goes on so may
be what cannot be done today can be done tomorrow!
Norman


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Subject: Excellent new seabird ID sites
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 2 Mar 2004 11:13am

Hi Folks,

Seabird enthusiasts will be interested in two new web sites launched by
Swedish birder Niklas Holmström, one of the authors of "Flight
Identification of European Seabirds".

The first web site focuses on birding and seawatching in the Madeira
archipelago.

http://madeira.seawatching.net/

Appropriately named 'Birding Madeira', the site contains all the
information you need for a trip to this fascinating archipelago situated
in the North Atlantic off North Africa. There are sections on 'Travel
info', 'Seawatching', 'Trip reports', 'Photo gallery' and selective
lists of birds and more. Images of various seabirds, landbird endemics
and Atlantic Yellow-legged Gulls should be on interest to ID-F members.

The second site is about seawatching at N Gor in Senegal, West Africa:

http://senegal.seawatching.net

Again there are plenty of useful tips on travel to this superb
seawatching site and the photo galleries feature a nice collection of
storm-petrel and skua photos (skuas and jaegers) by Göran Ekström and
Dan Mangsbo. Uncharacteristically in this age of unwaivering certainty,
several of the storm-petrel shots are left unidentified and there is a
downloadable file with comments and discussion from some familiar experts!

Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City
http://www.oceanwanderers.com


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Subject: kumlien's hybrid swarm theory
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 2 Mar 2004 1:34pm

Norman points out that "as yet there is no support whatsoever from DNA
studies for the theory" that "Kumlien's" is nothing more than a hybrid
swarm between thayeri and glaucoides.  However, there is a paper,
focused on locations of breeding colonies and range changes over time,
that supports the theory.  The citation is:

Weir, D.N., A.C. Kitchener, and R.Y. McGowan.  2000.  Hybridization and
changes in the distribution of Iceland gulls (Larus
glaucoides/kumlieni/thayeri).   J. Zool., Lond.  252: 517-530.

The abstract and some excerpts are at
http://www.aves.net/birdnews/litreview-xthgulls.htm

Here's one excerpt:
"We believe that thayeri spread east [in the 1900s] and interbred with
glaucoides, giving rise to the variable hybrid kumlieni. As the eastward
shift continued, the hybrid zone moved east and introgression may now
extend to the eastern limits of the greatly reduced range of
glaucoides."

Steve Hampton
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax


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Subject: Re: kumlien's hybrid swarm theory
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)med.nyu.edu>
Date: 2 Mar 2004 3:05pm

To be fair, I don't think the Weir paper refutes Norman's statement
regarding the existence of DNA data (or lack thereof) relevant to
Kumlien's question. I don't have the paper in front of me but recall
that the authors did not do any DNA studies but rather used visual
inspection of specimens (scoring feather pigmentation etc) and reviewed
historical literature from explorers and scientific expeditions
Greenland and Arctic Canada to chart changes in the distribution of
gulls with heavy or light pigmentation. Steve is right that the authors
argue for a relatively recent introgression of western 'thayeri' genes
into the eastern 'glaucoides' pool but regrettably they do not provide
the much-needed molecular evidence to verify or refute the hypothesis
that kumlien's represent a hybrid swarm.

Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City

Steve Hampton wrote:

>Norman points out that "as yet there is no support whatsoever from DNA
>studies for the theory" that "Kumlien's" is nothing more than a hybrid
>swarm between thayeri and glaucoides.  However, there is a paper,
>focused on locations of breeding colonies and range changes over time,
>that supports the theory.  The citation is:
>
>Weir, D.N., A.C. Kitchener, and R.Y. McGowan.  2000.  Hybridization and
>changes in the distribution of Iceland gulls (Larus
>glaucoides/kumlieni/thayeri).   J. Zool., Lond.  252: 517-530.
>
>


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Subject: Major new paper on ID on American Herring Gull
From: wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU
Date: 2 Mar 2004 8:45pm

I arrived home tonight to find the latest issue of DUTCH BIRDING has a huge
and beautifully illustrated article by Pat Lonergan and Killian Mullarney on
the identification of American Herring Gulls.

Lonergan, P. and Mullarney, K. (2004) Identification of American Herring
Gull in western European context. Dutch Birding 26(1): 1-35.

Using 90 or so crip color photos, the authors work their way from juvenile
to adult plumages, with heavy emphasis on the appearance of birds in fall
and winter. I am pleased to see that they have concentrated on 'east coast'
American Herring Gulls (photographed in Boston MA, primarily). Presumably
these will be more relevant to birders in Iceland and northwestern Europe
than those photographed say in California or the Pacific Northwest?

Gull fans on the other side of 'the pond' will probably find value in the
paper, if only to better understand variation in our baseline species. The
panels of American Herring Gulls include several examples of European
Herring Gulls, a taxa that is almost certainly under-recorded in eastern
North America.

I'm looking forward to studying the paper and hope others share their
impressions on ID-Frontiers.

Cheers, Angus Wilson

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Subject: Intriguing Gull in Denmark - Part 2
From: Dennis Broe Nielsen <dennis_broe_nielsen(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 3 Mar 2004 5:22am

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Hi All!

A couple of weeks ago I posted a link to photos of an interesting =
Herring Gull from Denmark with some characters suggesting American =
Herring Gull. They can be seen here:=20

http://www.birds-of-denmark.dk/amsoelvmaage.htm and some additional =
photos can be seen here:

http://www.nordfugl.dk/maage2/index.html=20

I received a lot of interesting and informative comments from gull =
enthusiasts from both Europe and USA. Most did agree upon that the gull =
did in some aspects resemble an American Herring Gull but most also did =
agree upon that it wasn't the most classic American Herring Gull that =
they had seen and that it might not be possible to make a positive id on =
this bird!

=20

Last week a local birder saw the gull trapped and entangled in some of =
the fishermen's nets and as it looked exhausted it was taken into care =
for a couple of hours, which allowed for some in hand photos. Some of =
these can be seen here http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?language=3Duk =
and more will be published later today.

=20

The tail and the barring on the rump still look good. The mirror in the =
wing however might be too large for American Herring Gull and =
furthermore it is not a very big gull which might speak against American =
Herring Gull.

=20

All comments on this Gull will be much appreciated!

=20

Best regards

=20

Dennis Broe Nielsen, Denmark

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Subject: Large pale gull in Pennsylvania
From: Bill Etter <better(AT)NETCARRIER.COM>
Date: 3 Mar 2004 12:54pm

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Greetings,

On 29 Feb, I photographed an odd gull at Lake Nockamixon in southeastern =
Pennsylvania.  Unfortunately, only got one shot worth posting.  Feedback =
thus far leans toward Great Black-backed Gull lacking melanin.  I'm =
interested in further opinions.  I got a good Glaucous vibe from this =
bird and am interested in viewing photos of known GBBGxGLGU.  'Nelson's' =
is another possibility, i suppose.

Thanks to Dave DeReamus for posting this photo on his Eastern PA Birding =
site:

http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/index9.html

A description of the gull and some comments that i sent around to local =
birders are included there.

Interested in any comments on this bird!  Thanks!

Bill Etter
Perkasie, PA
better(AT)netcarrier.com

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Subject: Another Iceland/Thayer's
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 5 Mar 2004 12:26pm

How about taking a look at yet another Thayer's/Iceland candidate?  I have
a few bad photos of a dark first year bird in Ithaca, NY at
<http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/Iceland.htm>.  I picked it out in flight by
the white underside of the wingtips and figured it was just a darkish
Iceland.  But, with all the positive Thayer's comments about that extremely
pale Kentucky bird (;^)), I thought I'd get some opinions on this darker
individual.  Actually, I didn't realize the bird was a dark as it was until
I looked at the in-flight photograph.

Cheers,

Kevin

*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/


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Subject: Hooded vs. Orchard orioles
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 6 Mar 2004 7:22pm

This afternoon I got a photos of two of three orioles that have been
wintering in San Francisco.  I have posted the photos at:

http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/orioles.htm

I welcome comments and opinion on their identity.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan(AT)ccsf.org
California Birding & new rarities http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/