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ID-FRONTIERS for March 28-31, 2004
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Russian request
From: Millington/BIS <sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk>
Date: 28 Mar 2004 12:28am
Hi
Bird one fits all the criteria for Kamchatka Gull (size, structure, bill and
especially wing-tip pattern).
Bird two has a wingtip pattern approaching Mew (grey tongue on P8) but lacks
black on P5. Presumably this too is a Kamchatka Gull.
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Russian request
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 28 Mar 2004 5:20am
Dear all,
I agree with Al and Richard that both birds look to be within the normal
range of variation for Kamchatka Gull Larus (canus) kamchatkaensis (what IS
the correct spelling of the specific epithet?)
Take a look at the birds here to see a good number of such birds:
http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/a_canus.html
I would think that the variation in canus, kam., henei, and brach. may make
it really hard to identify a potential vagrant of one within the range of
another (other than extreme or "classic" examples.)
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Accessing photos on YahooGroup sites (Birds in
Russia)
From: Kris Olson <Kristenolson(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 28 Mar 2004 9:53am
Hello all,
The way you can access the BirdsinRussia Yahoogroups site is this:
1) You must have a YahooGroups ID. This is not the same as a Yahoo
email address, but the process for getting it is similar. Yahoo
requires this now for access to anything but messages. Make sure to
say 'no' to all the marketing preferences if you don't want to receive
messages.
2) Go to YahooGroups.com
3) Sign in
4) Search for BirdsinRussia
5) Join the group (takes 2 or 3 clicks) -- you can set it up so that
you receive no email.
6) You can access the photos! As well as the message archives
Kris Olson
Menlo Park, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Automatic digest
processor
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 11:01 PM
To: Recipients of BIRDWG01 digests
Subject: BIRDWG01 Digest - 26 Mar 2004 to 27 Mar 2004 (#2004-73)
There are 5 messages totalling 200 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Wiscosnin gull (2)
2. Russian request (3)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 12:40:48 +0100
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Subject: Re: Wiscosnin gull
> What, in your opinion, is the pale bird John?
> Norman
John Idzikowski wrote:> The bird seems intermediate in saturation of
browns,
structure and degree of
> lacy patterning on the terts. between Thayer's and a classic, Baffin
Is.
> Kumlien's. Based on how little we really know about the progression
of a
> given subadult plumage to a definitive adult plumage (that we then
use to
> define these 2 primarily by wingtip pattern absent here) I like to
err on
> the conservative side with subadults. I'd call this a Kumlien's
based on
my
> tentative acceptance of the feel-good "hybrid-swarm" theory of Weir,
McGowan
> and Kitchener where a bird that is not confidently a Thayer's (or
> geographically a nominate Iceland) would be dumped in the variable
Kumlien's
> designation by default; others have called these Thayer's-Kumlien's
> intergrades or hybrids.
Thanks John, for some recent 1st winter Icelands have a look at
www.dutchbirding.nl and go to picture gallery.
Cheers, Norman
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:11:51 -0600
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wiscosnin gull
I think that we can assume that the Dutchbirding Icelands linked below
are
nominates. Peter Adriaens also has a very nice site of Newfoundland
Kumlien's at-
http://www.aerc.be/KumliensGull/index.htm
The Wisconsin Gulls Site has a few Kumlien's as well as Thayer's-
http://birds.excelcomm.com/gullpage/index.asp?id=ICGU
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 5:40 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Wiscosnin gull
> > What, in your opinion, is the pale bird John?
> > Norman
>
> John Idzikowski wrote:> The bird seems intermediate in saturation of
browns,
> structure and degree of
> > lacy patterning on the terts. between Thayer's and a classic,
Baffin Is.
> > Kumlien's. Based on how little we really know about the
progression of a
> > given subadult plumage to a definitive adult plumage (that we then
use
to
> > define these 2 primarily by wingtip pattern absent here) I like to
err
on
> > the conservative side with subadults. I'd call this a Kumlien's
based on
> my
> > tentative acceptance of the feel-good "hybrid-swarm" theory of
Weir,
> McGowan
> > and Kitchener where a bird that is not confidently a Thayer's (or
> > geographically a nominate Iceland) would be dumped in the variable
> Kumlien's
> > designation by default; others have called these
Thayer's-Kumlien's
> > intergrades or hybrids.
>
>
> Thanks John, for some recent 1st winter Icelands have a look at
> www.dutchbirding.nl and go to picture gallery.
> Cheers, Norman
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:52:56 +0100
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
Subject: Russian request
It appears that it is impossible to get to the site referred to below.
However Jevgeni has been so kind as to send me all the gull pictures
Dr.Yuri
Artukhin made. So if anyone wants them I can send them. Just let me
know
please.
Norman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jevgeni Shergalin" <zoolit(AT)hotmail.com>
To: <BirdsinRussia(AT)yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 4:24 PM
Subject: [BirdsinRussia] Unidentified Gulls in the Bering Sea
> Dear friends,
>
> 9 photographs of two unidentified gulls are placed in the chapter
"Photos"
> of our site http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/BirdsinRussia/lst
that
> were taken by friend of mine Dr.Yuri Artukhin at the end of 2003 in
the
> Bering Sea. From the beginning Yuri thought that these gulls might
be the
> Common Gulls but later he has begun to suspect their possible
belonging to
> some North-American gull species. Thus Yuri will be grateful to
anybody
with
> experience in identification of East-Asian and North-American Gulls,
who
> will help him to identify these birds.
> Any comments remarks and judgements are appreciated either via our
list or
> directly to Dr.Yuri Artukhin's email artukhin(AT)mail.iks.ru
>
> With best regards
>
> Jevgeni Shergalin zoolit(AT)hotmail.com
http://my.tele2.ee/birds/
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BirdsinRussia/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 20:28:43 -0600
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Russian request
I have posted the 2 Bering Sea gulls; please address all comments to
the
listserv and not me-
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/Larus1a.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/Larus1b.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/Larus1c.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/Larus1d.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/Larus2a.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/Larus2b.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/Larus2c.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/Larus2f.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~idzikoj/gulls/Larus2g.jpg
The numbering and lettering is consistent with that in the much longer
labels, shortened here.
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:52 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Russian request
> It appears that it is impossible to get to the site referred to
below.
> However Jevgeni has been so kind as to send me all the gull pictures
Dr.Yuri
> Artukhin made. So if anyone wants them I can send them. Just let me
know
> please.
> Norman
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:08:55 -0800
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Russian request
At 08:28 PM 3/27/2004 -0600, John Idzikowski wrote:
>I have posted the 2 Bering Sea gulls; please address all comments to
the
>listserv and not me-
I don't remember the question, was there one with regards to these
Russian
photos? Are these not Kamchatka Gulls? Larus canus kamchatkaensis.
cheers
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)comcast.net
Montara, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
------------------------------
End of BIRDWG01 Digest - 26 Mar 2004 to 27 Mar 2004 (#2004-73)
**************************************************************
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Russian request
From: timvaughan(AT)TALK21.COM
Date: 28 Mar 2004 11:27am
Hi,
These birds fit what I'd want to see from a Kamchatka Gull. Although I agree
with Martin that out of range Common Gulls can be hard to subspecifically
identify I have never seen canus like this. These birds would definitely draw
attention in Europe as soem heinei types can do too.
Best wishes,
Tim Vaughan
Seaforth, UK (with 1,000s of canus but nothing else !!)
> Dear all,
>I agree with Al and Richard that both birds look to be within the normal
>range of variation for Kamchatka Gull Larus (canus) kamchatkaensis (what IS
>the correct spelling of the specific epithet?)
>Take a look at the birds here to see a good number of such birds:
<a Target='_new' Href='<a Target='_new'
Href='http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/a_canus.html''>http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/a_canus.html'</a>><a Target='_new' Href='http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/a_canus.html'>http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/a_canus.html</a></a>
>I would think that the variation in canus, kam., henei, and brach. may
make
>it really hard to identify a potential vagrant of one within the range
of
>another (other than extreme or "classic" examples.)
>Cheers,
>Martin
>
>Martin Reid
>Fort Worth, Texas
>mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
><a Target='_new' Href='<a Target='_new'
Href='http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.martinreid.com''>http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.martinreid.com'</a>><a Target='_new' Href='http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.martinreid.com'>http://www.martinreid.com</a></a>
--------------------
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at
http://www.talk21.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Seeking feedback on this gallinago-like snipe -
an update
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 29 Mar 2004 11:44am
Dear all,
I've updated my web page(s):
http://www.martinreid.com/snipe25.html
and now
http://www.martinreid.com/snipe25b.html
- with a comparison to three Wilson's Snipe I photographed this morning;
I believe that the main ID features are all on the underwing:- the extent
of white in the lesser primary coverts; the extent of white in the
secondary lesser and median coverts, and to a lesser degree the white tips
to the median and great coverts; and the width of the white-black bars on
the axillary feathers (delicata has the black bars thicker than the white
bars for all or almost all of the entire axillary tract; gallinago has the
white bars equal to or thinner than the black bars for all or almost all of
the entire axillary tract.)
The width of the white tipping to the secondaries is also an important
feature SOMETIMES, in that extremes should be diagnostic, but gallinago can
have quite narrow white tips, and there is evidence that this is more
common in the Siberian populations - as is a tendency to be colder and
darker than European gallinago, and to more-often lack any brown wash on
the flanks. See: Leader, P. Identification Forum: Common Snipe and Wilson's
Snipe. 1999. Birding World 12-6: 371-374.
Keep in mind that the underwing is slightly reflective, and thus the
underwing feather tracts of delicata taken today (in bright sunshine) are a
bit brighter than they'd look if photographed under the same conditions
prevailing (dull and overcast) when i photographed the presumed gallinago.
At least six other birders have seen this snipe now, including a Polish
birder who has banded hundreds of gallinago back home; all agree that it
looks good for gallinago. Of course, the real test is to reasonably rule
out delicata; I think we can, but I'd really value some feedback -
especially with any data/photos that confirm or refute my notions - thanks!
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
Fort Worth, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Fwd: Seeking feedback on this
gallinago-like snipe - an update (fwd)
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 29 Mar 2004 3:22pm
HI:
FYI
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:04:33 -0800
From: Dennis Paulson <dpaulson(AT)ups.edu>
To: birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net
Subject: Re: Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Seeking feedback on this gallinago-like snipe
- an update
Ian, thanks for keeping me informed, and you can post my response. I
have looked at all the snipe identification articles and am left
wondering whether if there is as much variation in the underwing
pattern of Common Snipe as has been reported by the people who
capture lots of them, why not equivalent variation in Wilson's? I
realize that's what Martin is trying to find (or not to find), and
indeed we have no Wilson's wings that show as much white as his
photo. I have scanned the three wings that show the most extensive
white below; they don't have all their axillars but do show some of
them, and that's the best I can do. Note that Martin says Wilson's
has "black bars thicker than the white bars," and Common has "white
bars equal to or thinner than the black bars;" some of our Wilson's
have axillars with white and black bars equal. There is also a fair
bit of white under those wings. Note that we have only 14 Wilson's
Snipe wings, and I can't imagine that they show all the variation in
the species.
These wings are portrayed at http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/threesnipes.jpg.
If you look at the Common Snipe wing on the Slater Museum web site at
http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/wings_Scolopacidae.html, you will
see that one of the best distinctions for that species is the wide
white tips of the greater coverts, making a quite broad white stripe
along the length of the inner wing. I have two other G. gallinago
wings here from the Burke Museum collection that show the same thing
(all are from Siberia). It's interesting to me that Martin's bird,
although with a great deal of white on the lesser and middle coverts,
shows no more white in that greater-covert stripe than a typical
Wilson's Snipe (at least that is the way it looks in the sharpest
photo). That, plus the quite narrow secondary tips, makes me wonder
if it could be a Wilson's varying to more white than usual on the
lesser and middle coverts. I agree with Martin that no one has yet
brought forth an undisputed delicata that shows that much white in
that part of the wing!
Dennis
>Dear all,
>I've updated my web page(s):
>http://www.martinreid.com/snipe25.html
>and now
>http://www.martinreid.com/snipe25b.html
> - with a comparison to three Wilson's Snipe I photographed this morning;
>I believe that the main ID features are all on the underwing:- the extent
>of white in the lesser primary coverts; the extent of white in the
>secondary lesser and median coverts, and to a lesser degree the white tips
>to the median and great coverts; and the width of the white-black bars on
>the axillary feathers (delicata has the black bars thicker than the white
>bars for all or almost all of the entire axillary tract; gallinago has the
>white bars equal to or thinner than the black bars for all or almost all of
>the entire axillary tract.)
>The width of the white tipping to the secondaries is also an important
>feature SOMETIMES, in that extremes should be diagnostic, but gallinago can
>have quite narrow white tips, and there is evidence that this is more
>common in the Siberian populations - as is a tendency to be colder and
>darker than European gallinago, and to more-often lack any brown wash on
>the flanks. See: Leader, P. Identification Forum: Common Snipe and Wilson's
>Snipe. 1999. Birding World 12-6: 371-374.
>
>Keep in mind that the underwing is slightly reflective, and thus the
>underwing feather tracts of delicata taken today (in bright sunshine) are a
>bit brighter than they'd look if photographed under the same conditions
>prevailing (dull and overcast) when i photographed the presumed gallinago.
>At least six other birders have seen this snipe now, including a Polish
>birder who has banded hundreds of gallinago back home; all agree that it
>looks good for gallinago. Of course, the real test is to reasonably rule
>out delicata; I think we can, but I'd really value some feedback -
>especially with any data/photos that confirm or refute my notions - thanks!
>Cheers,
>Martin
>
>
>Martin Reid
>Fort Worth, Texas
>mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
>http://www.martinreid.com
>
>-- END OF FORWARDED MESSAGE --
>
>
>--
>Ian Paulsen
>Bainbridge Island, WA USA
>A.K.A.:Birdbooker
>Rallidae all the way!
--
Dennis Paulson, Director phone 253-879-3798
Slater Museum of Natural History fax 253-879-3352
University of Puget Sound e-mail dpaulson(AT)ups.edu
1500 N. Warner, #1088
Tacoma, WA 98416-1088
http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/museum.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Fwd: Seeking feedback on
thisgallinago-like snipe - an update (fwd)
From: Keith Arnold <kaarnold(AT)TAMU.EDU>
Date: 31 Mar 2004 7:31am
Ian:
We have a fair number of "Wilson's" Snipe spread wings; Martin was, at one time,
going to look at these. I'll take a look tomorrow when I'm at the TCWC and see
if I can find the variation that Dennis mentions.
Keith Arnold
WFSC TAMU
College Station
>>> Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET> 03/29/04 04:23PM >>>
HI:
FYI
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:04:33 -0800
From: Dennis Paulson <dpaulson(AT)ups.edu>
To: birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net
Subject: Re: Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Seeking feedback on this gallinago-like snipe
- an update
Ian, thanks for keeping me informed, and you can post my response. I
have looked at all the snipe identification articles and am left
wondering whether if there is as much variation in the underwing
pattern of Common Snipe as has been reported by the people who
capture lots of them, why not equivalent variation in Wilson's? I
realize that's what Martin is trying to find (or not to find), and
indeed we have no Wilson's wings that show as much white as his
photo. I have scanned the three wings that show the most extensive
white below; they don't have all their axillars but do show some of
them, and that's the best I can do. Note that Martin says Wilson's
has "black bars thicker than the white bars," and Common has "white
bars equal to or thinner than the black bars;" some of our Wilson's
have axillars with white and black bars equal. There is also a fair
bit of white under those wings. Note that we have only 14 Wilson's
Snipe wings, and I can't imagine that they show all the variation in
the species.
These wings are portrayed at http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/threesnipes.jpg.
If you look at the Common Snipe wing on the Slater Museum web site at
http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/wings_Scolopacidae.html, you will
see that one of the best distinctions for that species is the wide
white tips of the greater coverts, making a quite broad white stripe
along the length of the inner wing. I have two other G. gallinago
wings here from the Burke Museum collection that show the same thing
(all are from Siberia). It's interesting to me that Martin's bird,
although with a great deal of white on the lesser and middle coverts,
shows no more white in that greater-covert stripe than a typical
Wilson's Snipe (at least that is the way it looks in the sharpest
photo). That, plus the quite narrow secondary tips, makes me wonder
if it could be a Wilson's varying to more white than usual on the
lesser and middle coverts. I agree with Martin that no one has yet
brought forth an undisputed delicata that shows that much white in
that part of the wing!
Dennis
>Dear all,
>I've updated my web page(s):
>http://www.martinreid.com/snipe25.html
>and now
>http://www.martinreid.com/snipe25b.html
> - with a comparison to three Wilson's Snipe I photographed this morning;
>I believe that the main ID features are all on the underwing:- the extent
>of white in the lesser primary coverts; the extent of white in the
>secondary lesser and median coverts, and to a lesser degree the white tips
>to the median and great coverts; and the width of the white-black bars on
>the axillary feathers (delicata has the black bars thicker than the white
>bars for all or almost all of the entire axillary tract; gallinago has the
>white bars equal to or thinner than the black bars for all or almost all of
>the entire axillary tract.)
>The width of the white tipping to the secondaries is also an important
>feature SOMETIMES, in that extremes should be diagnostic, but gallinago can
>have quite narrow white tips, and there is evidence that this is more
>common in the Siberian populations - as is a tendency to be colder and
>darker than European gallinago, and to more-often lack any brown wash on
>the flanks. See: Leader, P. Identification Forum: Common Snipe and Wilson's
>Snipe. 1999. Birding World 12-6: 371-374.
>
>Keep in mind that the underwing is slightly reflective, and thus the
>underwing feather tracts of delicata taken today (in bright sunshine) are a
>bit brighter than they'd look if photographed under the same conditions
>prevailing (dull and overcast) when i photographed the presumed gallinago.
>At least six other birders have seen this snipe now, including a Polish
>birder who has banded hundreds of gallinago back home; all agree that it
>looks good for gallinago. Of course, the real test is to reasonably rule
>out delicata; I think we can, but I'd really value some feedback -
>especially with any data/photos that confirm or refute my notions - thanks!
>Cheers,
>Martin
>
>
>Martin Reid
>Fort Worth, Texas
>mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
>http://www.martinreid.com
>
>-- END OF FORWARDED MESSAGE --
>
>
>--
>Ian Paulsen
>Bainbridge Island, WA USA
>A.K.A.:Birdbooker
>Rallidae all the way!
--
Dennis Paulson, Director phone 253-879-3798
Slater Museum of Natural History fax 253-879-3352
University of Puget Sound e-mail dpaulson(AT)ups.edu
1500 N. Warner, #1088
Tacoma, WA 98416-1088
http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/museum.html
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