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ID-FRONTIERS for September 19-25, 2004
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| RE : the possible michahellis in
Newfoundland (not) | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierr | Mon, 20 Sep 2004 | 2:12am |
| Acquired White Plumage in a Steller's Jay | Ted Floyd | Mon, 20 Sep 2004 | 6:52am |
| Re: Acquired White Plumage in a Steller's Jay | John Idzikowski | Mon, 20 Sep 2004 | 7:24am |
| empid bill question | Steve Hampton | Mon, 20 Sep 2004 | 9:32am |
| Separation of Murphy's and Great-winged Petrels | Lethaby, Nick | Mon, 20 Sep 2004 | 10:40am |
| Re: empid bill question | Lethaby, Nick | Mon, 20 Sep 2004 | 10:41am |
| Re: empid bill question | GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM | Mon, 20 Sep 2004 | 3:24pm |
| RE : the possible michahellis in
Newfoundland (not) | Nick Rossiter | Mon, 20 Sep 2004 | 4:14pm |
| Re: empid bill question | Lethaby, Nick | Mon, 20 Sep 2004 | 4:56pm |
| Re: the possible michahellis in Newfoundland
(not) | Norman D.van Swelm | Tue, 21 Sep 2004 | 3:18pm |
| Re: Id of the Missouri dark-backed gull | Martin Reid | Thu, 23 Sep 2004 | 4:54pm |
| ID of a cormorant from the UK | Martin Reid | Thu, 23 Sep 2004 | 5:37pm |
| Re: ID of a cormorant from the UK | kmullarney@eircom.ne | Thu, 23 Sep 2004 | 9:07pm |
| Cormorant ID | Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM | Thu, 23 Sep 2004 | 9:10pm |
| Re: Cormorant ID | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Alain | Thu, 23 Sep 2004 | 10:09pm |
| Re: ID of a cormorant from the UK | Martin Garner | Thu, 23 Sep 2004 | 11:33pm |
| Re: ID of a cormorant from the UK | Sean Cole | Fri, 24 Sep 2004 | 3:02am |
| Re: ID of a cormorant from the UK | Angus Wilson | Fri, 24 Sep 2004 | 9:12am |
| Re: ID of a cormorant from the UK | Norman D.van Swelm | Fri, 24 Sep 2004 | 2:26pm |
| Re: Cory's Shearwater ssp. | Phil Davis | Sat, 25 Sep 2004 | 12:32pm |
| Re: Cory's Shearwater ssp. | Dick Newell | Sat, 25 Sep 2004 | 2:27pm |
| Update Re: ID of a cormorant from the
UK | Martin Reid | Sat, 25 Sep 2004 | 3:46pm |
| Jaeger ID question | Cliff and Lisa Weiss | Sat, 25 Sep 2004 | 8:51pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RE : the possible michahellis in
Newfoundland (not)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <pierre-andre.crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS.FR>
Date: 20 Sep 2004 2:12am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Dear all,=0D
=0D
I did NOT suggest this bird is a Cantabrican YLG. I think it is odd for a C=
antabrican YLG (head pattern and whitish general color are outside the rang=
e of typical Cantabrican YLG) and given the location, I think it's more lik=
ely to be an atypical LBBG than an atypical YLG. I just wanted to point tha=
t several of the characters used to exclude YLG by previous postings are no=
t valid when considering Cantabrican birds. Dick Newell has agreed to host =
pics of Cantabrican YLG on his website. I'll let you know when they are rea=
dy.=0D
=0D
Best,=0D
=0D
Pierre=0D
=0D
PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL // ATTENTION NOUVELLE ADRESSE EMAIL =0D
Pierre-Andr=E9 Crochet =0D
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive =0D
1919, route de Mende =0D
34293 Montpellier cedex 5 =0D
France =0D
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 =0D
+ 33 4 67 61 32 98 =0D
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38 =0D
pierre-andre.crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs.fr =0D
-----Message d'origine-----=0D
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01@L=
ISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Norman D.van Swelm=0D
Envoy=E9 : samedi 18 septembre 2004 17:08=0D
=C0 : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=0D
Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] the possible michahellis in Newfoundland (not)=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Dear Bruce and all:=0D
Who said anything about boomerangs? Fernando and Pierre-Andr=E9's
suggesti=
on that the Canadian bird is in fact a Cantabrican atlantis is very interes=
ting and well worth studying in more detail. Could you post some pictures o=
f Cantabrican atlantis please Fernando?=0D
Norman=0D
=0D
Fernando Arce wrote:>I think this bird could perfectly be a cantabric
yell=
ow legged gull. After a busy summer ringing storm peterls on the Basque cou=
ntry I could manage to ring with colour marks some gulls for a friend=B4s p=
roject there, and soon after I could return to the colony to study carefull=
y birds from the basque country, and I (and other basque gullers, like Jon =
hidalgo) were surprised about the similarity of many of these birds with LB=
B gull. indeed, some birds were more close on structure and plumaje feature=
s to LBB gull than your bird (A great problem to identify them without the =
colour ring, at least in full juvenile plumaje). I have watched many juveni=
les on the colonies of Cantabria and also inmature birds ringed both in Gal=
icia and Asturias, and they not use to be too close to the LBB gull (I reme=
mber a photo from Andres Bermejo of a galizian bird that broke the brain of=
some of us in a meeting in December on the Basque country that was too clo=
se on structure to a mediterranean michahellis). in Fact, some of norman Va=
n Swelm birds watched in Asturias where more close to our cantabric gulls t=
han others nearest lbb gull (nacho Vega, Cesar a. Lao, Daniel L. Velasco, R=
enaud Flamant and myself).=0D
I think that plumaje and structure match OK our cantabric yellow legged
gu=
ll (other cantabric gullers have seen the pics and agree), and the moult st=
age is still ok. yesterday 4 birds near bilbao were still in full juvenile =
plumaje (only starting moult on head and body) like others LBB gulls, while=
the 3 mediterranean michahellis presents were all in a well advanced moult=
stage (one of them with some inner median wing coverts renoved and absent)=
. birds from Santo=F1as marshes were also in juvenile plumaje (not all) las=
t weekend.=0D
I cannot give you a safely response about your bird because is an out of
r=
ange bird, but watching this bird on the cantabric sea I wouldn=B4t have an=
y trouble to call them a cantabric yellow legged gull.<=0D
-- =0D
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier =0D
-- =0D
--=20
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier
--
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Acquired White Plumage in a Steller's Jay
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd(AT)aba.org>
Date: 20 Sep 2004 6:52am
Hello, birders.
Here's an interesting note from Bill Schmoker, who is not
currently subscribed to this list. Would love to hear
from any of the experts out there (and so, I'm sure, would
Bill) about this apparent case of acquired albinism. I
always thought that albinism was a congenital condition;
but evidently not? Thanks, --Ted Floyd
------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bill Schmoker [mailto:bill(AT)schmoker.org]
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 7:23 PM
Subject: Acquired White Plumage in a Steller's Jay
A particularly interesting Steller's Jay has been frequenting a feeder
in the foothills of Boulder County, Colorado (elevation ~7500'). It is
now essentially pure white, with a pink bill and feet, and a dark iris.
The owners of the residence first noticed the bird in early August,
because it was mostly blue & black but had some white feathers (other
than the normal white on the face.) It is evident from their first
photos that the bill and legs were pink at that time. The coloration of
the bare parts and whether or not the bird had any unusual white
feathers prior to the time of the first photos is unknown-it is
obviously already molting in the first pics. Over the intervening weeks
the bird molted its "normal" feathers, replacing them with white
feathers. I studied the bird for about two hours today (19 Sept.), and
during visual observation I couldn't detect any residual pigment. On
later examination of photos, however, I note very faint remnants of
dark barring in the tail, extremely faint bluish tinting in the tail
and right wing, and a gray spot in the left lesser coverts. I put
photos of the bird molting and of the resulting white bird on this
page: http://schmoker.org/BirdPics/Whitey.html
Questions: Can anyone suggest a reference describing a bird molting
from "normal" into "albino" plumage? Or can anyone share their
experience with a similar bird? Also, is "albino" the best term to
describe the plumage of this bird (shouldn't "true" albino birds be
white from the get-go?) If not, then what should we call this type of
acquired white plumage?
Thanks for your help and ideas- Bill
Bill Schmoker Science Teacher
Centennial
Middle School
2205 Norwood
Ave.
http://schmoker.org Boulder, Colorado
80304
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Acquired White Plumage in a Steller's Jay
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 20 Sep 2004 7:24am
This sounds like an avian counterpart to vitiligo in humans where
there is a quick loss or death of pigment cells that can come on very
quickly due to perhaps an autoimmune response or some kind of
traumatic event that may entail a neurological-somatic mechanism that
somehow effects these cells, occurring generally in patches. The hair
appears much lighter if thin as the skin depigments quickly; then of
course the hair itself is white as it grows. I knew an individual that
had this happen after being in an armed robbery; there apparently is a
basis in the tale of "hair turning white over night" beside being
Charlton Heston visiting the burning bush. In birds of course such
loss of pigment cells would not manifest itself until the growth of
new feathers after the death of the pigment cells. Sounds like it's
time for one of those short anecdotal papers- "Avian Vitiligo" -you
heard it here first. Maybe this bird found out that Colorado is
leaning towards George Dubya in the latest polls.
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Floyd" <tedfloyd(AT)aba.org>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 8:54 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Acquired White Plumage in a Steller's Jay
> Hello, birders.
>
> Here's an interesting note from Bill Schmoker, who is not
> currently subscribed to this list. Would love to hear
> from any of the experts out there (and so, I'm sure, would
> Bill) about this apparent case of acquired albinism. I
> always thought that albinism was a congenital condition;
> but evidently not? Thanks, --Ted Floyd
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: Bill Schmoker [mailto:bill(AT)schmoker.org]
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 7:23 PM
> Subject: Acquired White Plumage in a Steller's Jay
>
> A particularly interesting Steller's Jay has been frequenting a
feeder
> in the foothills of Boulder County, Colorado (elevation ~7500'). It
is
> now essentially pure white, with a pink bill and feet, and a dark
iris.
> The owners of the residence first noticed the bird in early August,
> because it was mostly blue & black but had some white feathers
(other
> than the normal white on the face.) It is evident from their first
> photos that the bill and legs were pink at that time. The coloration
of
> the bare parts and whether or not the bird had any unusual white
> feathers prior to the time of the first photos is unknown-it is
> obviously already molting in the first pics. Over the intervening
weeks
> the bird molted its "normal" feathers, replacing them with white
> feathers. I studied the bird for about two hours today (19 Sept.),
and
> during visual observation I couldn't detect any residual pigment. On
> later examination of photos, however, I note very faint remnants of
> dark barring in the tail, extremely faint bluish tinting in the tail
> and right wing, and a gray spot in the left lesser coverts. I put
> photos of the bird molting and of the resulting white bird on this
> page: http://schmoker.org/BirdPics/Whitey.html
>
> Questions: Can anyone suggest a reference describing a bird molting
> from "normal" into "albino" plumage? Or can anyone share their
> experience with a similar bird? Also, is "albino" the best term to
> describe the plumage of this bird (shouldn't "true" albino birds be
> white from the get-go?) If not, then what should we call this type
of
> acquired white plumage?
>
> Thanks for your help and ideas- Bill
>
> Bill Schmoker Science
Teacher
>
Centennial Middle School
> 2205
Norwood Ave.
> http://schmoker.org Boulder,
Colorado 80304
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: empid bill question
From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON(AT)OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 20 Sep 2004 9:32am
Willow Flycatchers are daily in fall around here (near Sacramento, CA),
so
I've seen my share. Most have pale lower mandibles, but a few have a
dark
smudge from the tip down 1/2 to 2/3 the length of the bottom of the
mandible-- however, the cutting edges are always pale. Thus, from the
bottom, the bill seems to have a Dusky or even Hammonds Flyc. pattern.
But
from the side, the pale straw color is evident to the tip.
Today I saw what was either a juv. Dusky or a Willow Flycatcher. While
I
never had good long close looks, the bird looked no different than a
typical
Willow (and had no eye-ring). However, the lower mandible was solidly
dark,
except for a thin crescent of pale as the darkness faded at the base of
the bill.
How variable is bill color? Has anyone seen a Willow with a bill like
this?
thanks,
Steve Hampton
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Separation of Murphy's and Great-winged Petrels
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 20 Sep 2004 10:40am
All:
I'm going on a deepwater trip in a couple of weeks off California and
just in case I get lucky enough to see a dark pterodroma, I've been
trying to understand the identification criteria. As far as I can tell
Murphy's and Great-winged appear somewhat similar. Does anyone know the
key features for separating these two?
Also any recommendations on the best book to buy would be nice. Would
one of the Australasian or New Zealand field guides have the answers?
Thanks, Nick
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: empid bill question
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 20 Sep 2004 10:41am
I had what I considered a very dark-billed Willow on Saturday. I agree
that they usually show a pretty obviously all pale lower mandible, but
this bird had half the lower mandible dusky both from below and from the
side. I have no real doubt the bird was a Willow. I did have pretty good
looks because I double-checked it after seeing the unusually dark bill.
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Hampton
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:33 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] empid bill question
Willow Flycatchers are daily in fall around here (near Sacramento, CA),
so
I've seen my share. Most have pale lower mandibles, but a few have a
dark
smudge from the tip down 1/2 to 2/3 the length of the bottom of the
mandible-- however, the cutting edges are always pale. Thus, from the
bottom, the bill seems to have a Dusky or even Hammonds Flyc. pattern.
But
from the side, the pale straw color is evident to the tip.
Today I saw what was either a juv. Dusky or a Willow Flycatcher. While
I
never had good long close looks, the bird looked no different than a
typical
Willow (and had no eye-ring). However, the lower mandible was solidly
dark,
except for a thin crescent of pale as the darkness faded at the base of
the bill.
How variable is bill color? Has anyone seen a Willow with a bill like
this?
thanks,
Steve Hampton
________________
Resource Economist
Office of Spill Prevention and Response
California Dept of Fish and Game
PO Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
-----------------------------------
(916) 323-4724 phone
(916) 324-8829 fax
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: empid bill question
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 20 Sep 2004 3:24pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all:
In my experience in banding and studying Empids in CO, I can tell you that
mandible color and pattern is fairly reliable, but NOT an absolute thing.
Juvenile Hammond's can have nearly all-pale mandibles, but usually have mostly
dark mandibles. Juvenile Dusky Flycatchers have incredibly varied mandible
patterns, from nearly all dark to nearly all pale with a suffusion of dark.
All Empids that typically show an all-pale mandible can show dark tips of
various extent, particularly Willow Fly - in my experience.
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RE : the possible michahellis in
Newfoundland (not)
From: Nick Rossiter <nrossiter(AT)SUPANET.COM>
Date: 20 Sep 2004 4:14pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
I agree that this is not a YLGU, even in the most general sense. It is =
true that there is a tendency for some first-year Atlantic YLGU from =
Iberia to show a pale primary panel but this bird's structure is much =
closer to LBBG with its tapering bill at the tip, small head and P10 =
clearly longer than P9. While the structure of Atlantic YLGU is in =
general slighter than that of Mediterranean YLGU (michahellis), it is =
still usually distinctly heavier than that of LBBG.=20
There are quite a few shots of Iberian YLGU at
http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/cantylg.htm
for northern Spain and SW France ('cantabrican')
and
http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/wportugal.htm
for the rest of Atlantic Iberia ('lusitanius'?) =20
I'm not sure that there is a clean break between those in western =
Portugal and northern Spain. There is more likely a cline.=20
Cheers ... Nick
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Pierre-Andr=E9 CROCHET=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 10:10 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] RE : [BIRDWG01] the possible michahellis in =
Newfoundland (not)
Dear all,
I did NOT suggest this bird is a Cantabrican YLG. I think it is odd =
for a Cantabrican YLG (head pattern and whitish general color are =
outside the range of typical Cantabrican YLG) and given the location, I =
think it's more likely to be an atypical LBBG than an atypical YLG. I =
just wanted to point that several of the characters used to exclude YLG =
by previous postings are not valid when considering Cantabrican birds. =
Dick Newell has agreed to host pics of Cantabrican YLG on his website. =
I'll let you know when they are ready.
Best,
Pierre
PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL // ATTENTION NOUVELLE ADRESSE EMAIL=20
Pierre-Andr=E9 Crochet=20
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive=20
1919, route de Mende=20
34293 Montpellier cedex 5=20
France=20
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75=20
+ 33 4 67 61 32 98=20
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38=20
pierre-andre.crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs.fr=20
-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification =
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Norman D.van Swelm
Envoy=E9 : samedi 18 septembre 2004 17:08
=C0 : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] the possible michahellis in Newfoundland (not)
Dear Bruce and all:
Who said anything about boomerangs? Fernando and Pierre-Andr=E9's =
suggestion that the Canadian bird is in fact a Cantabrican atlantis is =
very interesting and well worth studying in more detail. Could you post =
some pictures of Cantabrican atlantis please Fernando?
Norman
Fernando Arce wrote:>I think this bird could perfectly be a =
cantabric yellow legged gull. After a busy summer ringing storm peterls =
on the Basque country I could manage to ring with colour marks some =
gulls for a friend=B4s project there, and soon after I could return to =
the colony to study carefully birds from the basque country, and I (and =
other basque gullers, like Jon hidalgo) were surprised about the =
similarity of many of these birds with LBB gull. indeed, some birds were =
more close on structure and plumaje features to LBB gull than your bird =
(A great problem to identify them without the colour ring, at least in =
full juvenile plumaje). I have watched many juveniles on the colonies of =
Cantabria and also inmature birds ringed both in Galicia and Asturias, =
and they not use to be too close to the LBB gull (I remember a photo =
from Andres Bermejo of a galizian bird that broke the brain of some of =
us in a meeting in December on the Basque country that was too close on =
structure to a mediterranean michahellis). in Fact, some of norman Van =
Swelm birds watched in Asturias where more close to our cantabric gulls =
than others nearest lbb gull (nacho Vega, Cesar a. Lao, Daniel L. =
Velasco, Renaud Flamant and myself).
I think that plumaje and structure match OK our cantabric yellow =
legged gull (other cantabric gullers have seen the pics and agree), and =
the moult stage is still ok. yesterday 4 birds near bilbao were still in =
full juvenile plumaje (only starting moult on head and body) like others =
LBB gulls, while the 3 mediterranean michahellis presents were all in a =
well advanced moult stage (one of them with some inner median wing =
coverts renoved and absent). birds from Santo=F1as marshes were also in =
juvenile plumaje (not all) last weekend.
I cannot give you a safely response about your bird because is an =
out of range bird, but watching this bird on the cantabric sea I =
wouldn=B4t have any trouble to call them a cantabric yellow legged =
gull.<
--=20
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier=20
--=20
--=20
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier=20
--
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: empid bill question
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 20 Sep 2004 4:56pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
All:
=20
Just to second this, we had a couple of Dec/Jan Hammonds in Santa
Barbara county last year that had mostly pale lower mandibles with a
fairly faint dusky wash on the outer 40%. Both were verified by call,
primary extension, bill shape, and other features.
=20
Nick
=20
_____ =20
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 3:24 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] empid bill question
=20
Hi all:
=20
In my experience in banding and studying Empids in CO, I can tell you
that mandible color and pattern is fairly reliable, but NOT an absolute
thing. Juvenile Hammond's can have nearly all-pale mandibles, but
usually have mostly dark mandibles. Juvenile Dusky Flycatchers have
incredibly varied mandible patterns, from nearly all dark to nearly all
pale with a suffusion of dark. All Empids that typically show an
all-pale mandible can show dark tips of various extent, particularly
Willow Fly - in my experience.
=20
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: the possible michahellis in Newfoundland
(not)
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 21 Sep 2004 3:18pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--Boundary_(ID_UARU44J8Kpon1MJdG1PZ8A)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Nick Rossiter writes :
> I agree that this is not a YLGU, even in the most general sense. It is true
that there is a tendency for some first-year Atlantic YLGU from Iberia to show a
pale primary panel but this bird's structure is much closer to LBBG with its
tapering bill at the tip, small head and P10 clearly longer than P9. While the
structure of Atlantic YLGU is in general slighter than that of Mediterranean
YLGU (michahellis), it is still usually distinctly heavier than that of LBBG.
There are quite a few shots of Iberian YLGU at
http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/cantylg.htm
for northern Spain and SW France ('cantabrican')
and
http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/wportugal.htm
for the rest of Atlantic Iberia ('lusitanius'?) <
Nick, the one picture of a 1st calender year bird you show looks to me quite
similar if not identical to Bruce's Newfoundland gull.
The name 'lusitanius' is definitely out. Here is what I wrote earlier this
year on UKBN:
Portuguese Yellow-legged Gull
The AERC wants to preserve the name lusitanius for this gull though they
know full well that the underlying study is inadequate, indeed Dubois now
recommends a neotype to be collected on the Berlenga Islands in order to
make the name lusitanius acceptable after all! I recommend anyone to read
the gull study presented on:
www.ncp.fi/lokitseura
www.ncp.fi/lokitseura/IGM2/NORMAN.htm
It shows that the gulls from Berlenga have been described properly already
and that specimens collected there have been deposited in the National
Natural History Museum in Leiden, The Netherlands while the proposed name is
Larus atlantis berlengaensis!
Nick writes:>I'm not sure that there is a clean break between those in western
Portugal and northern Spain. There is more likely a cline. <
The cantabrican birds really are the missing link. As far as I know no
measurements have ever been published. The same seems to be true for pictures of
juvenile and first winter birds. They may well be a separable geographical
group of atlantis.
Norman
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Subject: Re: Id of the Missouri dark-backed gull
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 23 Sep 2004 4:54pm
Dear all,
I gather the bird is dead and now in the possession of Kansas University,
who will proceed with DNA analysis. So I'll stick my neck out (I often do)
and suggest that it will turn out to be a Heuglin's Gull, Larus {fuscus?
argentatus?} heuglini.
I think that on current knowledge there is no way to definitively separate
heuglini from graellsi in the field, so the following comments are what I
feel are suggestive of this taxon, having seen many of them in Bahrain.
The head is rather gently rounded at the rear, and seems to be developing
rather fine, clean streaking.
The bill seems rather short, making it look thick, with a strong orange-red
gonydal spot.
The eye, while pale, is not the typical whitish-yellow of graellsii, being
instead a richer yellow, with a few dark specks scattered therein.
The molt has reached P7, which is not visible/missing - thus P1 - P6 are
new and P8 - P10 are old. The mirrors on the old P10s are rather small,
and set back from the black tip - this black being about half the length of
the white mirror. There are no P9 mirrors. The black on P5 is quite
extensive and broadens towards the outer edge (helping to rule out atlantis
Yellow-legged Gull). There is a small black mark on P4. the black
subterminal band of each P5 has a thin white band along the inner edge, and
there is a suggestion of a faint such band on P6.
The bird seems to be big, suggesting a male ( perhaps KU can confirm this
from the specimen?), and a mature male graellsii should have a larger P10
mirror and at least a small P9 mirror.
So, not a great deal, but I feel that this bird has the jizz of heuglini;
hopefully we'll find out one way or the other.
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: ID of a cormorant from the UK
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 23 Sep 2004 5:37pm
Dear all,
I recently visited my old homeland, the UK, and found this cormorant:
http://www.martinreid.com/cormorant.html
Given the short thrift it received in the UK, I decided to check with four
well-known North American birders, all of whom have seen many cormorants of
both species. All felt it was a DC rather than a Great Cormorant. I'd
appreciate some discussion of this bird and the ID pitfalls of this
species-pair from both a New World and Old World perspective. If this is a
Great Cormorant, then I badly need to reset my benchmarks!
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID of a cormorant from the UK
From: "kmullarney(AT)eircom.net" <kmullarney@eircom.net>
Date: 23 Sep 2004 9:07pm
Martin, you have been away from your homeland for too long. In the course
of the past ten years or more many birders in Britain have become aware of
how different-looking classic 'sinensis' (the Contintintal race of Great
Cormorant)is from nominate 'carbo', the race found in N. America. Sinensis
is variable, but many immatures bear a strong superficial resemblance to
Double Crested Cormorant. The bird in your pics looks like a normal
sinensis,not a true Double Crested....
All the best,
Killian Mullarney
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Martin Reid upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:44:18 -0500
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] ID of a cormorant from the UK
Dear all,
I recently visited my old homeland, the UK, and found this cormorant:
http://www.martinreid.com/cormorant.html
Given the short thrift it received in the UK, I decided to check with four
well-known North American birders, all of whom have seen many cormorants of
both species. All felt it was a DC rather than a Great Cormorant. I'd
appreciate some discussion of this bird and the ID pitfalls of this
species-pair from both a New World and Old World perspective. If this is a
Great Cormorant, then I badly need to reset my benchmarks!
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Cormorant ID
From: Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 23 Sep 2004 9:10pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Martin,
Not that you need another opinion, but I have looked at many cormorants,
hoping to find a Greater here in the panhandle of Florida. I also looked at
many
cormorants in Maryland, finding several Greaters yearly in the flocks of (and
often separately) DCs. My impression from the photos is that this is a DC,
based on color of the gular pouch, extensiveness of the soft-tissue parts into
the face, and facial feather color and pattern. Did you take any side-by-side
photos of this bird with any other cormorants? It would be interesting to
compare size. Did you see it fly? (Greaters seem (IMO) to present a more
"stable, solid" bird when flying, possibly becase of their proportions and a
tendency to fly with a more extended, straighter, somewhat shorter neck.) The
bill
seems heavy for a DC, but I have never seen a Greater vary to this extent in
facial pattern or gular pouch extension onto the face.
Brian C. Monk, DVM
monkpiper(AT)aol.com
Destin, Florida
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Cormorant ID
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Alain_Foss=E9?= <alfosse(AT)wanadoo.fr>
Date: 23 Sep 2004 10:09pm
> Message du 24/09/04 06:10
> De : Monkpiper(AT)AOL.COM
> Objet : [BIRDWG01] Cormorant ID
>
> Not that you need another opinion, but I have looked at many cormorants,
> hoping to find a Greater here in the panhandle of Florida. I also looked at
many
> cormorants in Maryland, finding several Greaters yearly in the flocks of (and
> often separately) DCs. My impression from the photos is that this is a DC,
> based on color of the gular pouch, extensiveness of the soft-tissue parts
into
> the face, and facial feather color and pattern. Did you take any
side-by-side
> photos of this bird with any other cormorants? It would be interesting to
> compare size. Did you see it fly? (Greaters seem (IMO) to present a more
> "stable, solid" bird when flying, possibly becase of their proportions and a
> tendency to fly with a more extended, straighter, somewhat shorter neck.) The
bill
> seems heavy for a DC, but I have never seen a Greater vary to this extent in
> facial pattern or gular pouch extension onto the face.
I don't see the involved bird is different from our local sinensis
(Maine-et-Loire, W France).
See some of our birds on my page
<http://www.digimages.info/gracor/gracor.htm>
Cheers.
Alain Fossé, LPO Anjou, Maine-et-Loire, France
alfosse(AT)wanadoo.fr
http://www.digimages.info/
http://membres.lycos.fr/listoiseauxmonde/
http://www.lpo-anjou.org/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID of a cormorant from the UK
From: Martin Garner <martin.go(AT)VIRGIN.NET>
Date: 23 Sep 2004 11:33pm
ditto what Killian said,
and just to add that in southern and eastern England, north to Yorkshire at
least, the vast majority of Cormorants seen inland are sinensis not
carbo....
Martin Garner
----- Original Message -----
From: "kmullarney(AT)eircom.net" <kmullarney(AT)EIRCOM.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] ID of a cormorant from the UK
Martin, you have been away from your homeland for too long. In the course
of the past ten years or more many birders in Britain have become aware of
how different-looking classic 'sinensis' (the Contintintal race of Great
Cormorant)is from nominate 'carbo', the race found in N. America. Sinensis
is variable, but many immatures bear a strong superficial resemblance to
Double Crested Cormorant. The bird in your pics looks like a normal
sinensis,not a true Double Crested....
All the best,
Killian Mullarney
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Martin Reid upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:44:18 -0500
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] ID of a cormorant from the UK
Dear all,
I recently visited my old homeland, the UK, and found this cormorant:
http://www.martinreid.com/cormorant.html
Given the short thrift it received in the UK, I decided to check with four
well-known North American birders, all of whom have seen many cormorants of
both species. All felt it was a DC rather than a Great Cormorant. I'd
appreciate some discussion of this bird and the ID pitfalls of this
species-pair from both a New World and Old World perspective. If this is a
Great Cormorant, then I badly need to reset my benchmarks!
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID of a cormorant from the UK
From: Sean Cole <cole(AT)SEANANDLYNNE.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Date: 24 Sep 2004 3:02am
Hi all,
And ditto me too (birder based in Central England).
Many times I have tried to turn birds like this into DC's and pinched myself
for being so trigger-happy.
Hope this helps
Sean Cole
England
> ditto what Killian said,
>
> and just to add that in southern and eastern England, north to Yorkshire
at
> least, the vast majority of Cormorants seen inland are sinensis not
> carbo....
>
> Martin Garner
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kmullarney(AT)eircom.net" <kmullarney(AT)EIRCOM.NET>
> To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 5:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] ID of a cormorant from the UK
>
>
> Martin, you have been away from your homeland for too long. In the course
> of the past ten years or more many birders in Britain have become aware of
> how different-looking classic 'sinensis' (the Contintintal race of Great
> Cormorant)is from nominate 'carbo', the race found in N. America. Sinensis
> is variable, but many immatures bear a strong superficial resemblance to
> Double Crested Cormorant. The bird in your pics looks like a normal
> sinensis,not a true Double Crested....
>
> All the best,
>
> Killian Mullarney
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Martin Reid upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET
> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:44:18 -0500
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] ID of a cormorant from the UK
>
>
> Dear all,
> I recently visited my old homeland, the UK, and found this cormorant:
> http://www.martinreid.com/cormorant.html
> Given the short thrift it received in the UK, I decided to check with four
> well-known North American birders, all of whom have seen many cormorants
of
> both species. All felt it was a DC rather than a Great Cormorant. I'd
> appreciate some discussion of this bird and the ID pitfalls of this
> species-pair from both a New World and Old World perspective. If this is
a
> Great Cormorant, then I badly need to reset my benchmarks!
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio, Texas
> mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
> http://www.martinreid.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID of a cormorant from the UK
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 24 Sep 2004 9:12am
Hi All,
Before posting to ID-Frontiers, Martin showed me the cormorant pics
without mentioning the location. I am not too proud to admit that I
plumped for Double-crested (DC) rather than Great Cormorant, in part
based on the automatic but unfounded assumption that the photos were
from Texas. The comments from Killian et al. are an eye-opener and
clearly, I have been away from the UK too long!
Can anyone summarize the arguments for why this is sinensis rather
than P. auritus (DC) based on these photos? The head and bill seem
heavy but probably not out of the question for DC. The extend of
orange skin in front of the eye seems similar to DC and the colour
fairly typical. Are the differences between the two unequivocal on
pin-sharp views?
Any recommendations for further reading on separation of immature
carbo & sinensis? I recall Martin Garner writing extensively on the
topic. Could sinensis be a stealth vagrant to the New World?
Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID of a cormorant from the UK
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 24 Sep 2004 2:26pm
Martin Reid wrote:> I recently visited my old homeland, the UK, and found
this cormorant:
> http://www.martinreid.com/cormorant.html<
Don't worry Martin, next time you're here Secretary Ben Bradshaw will have
had all sinensis shot!
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Cory's Shearwater ssp.
From: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 25 Sep 2004 12:32pm
Hi George, et al.
My copy of Birding World arrived yesterday (in the US), containing a good
reference article with photos:
Fisher, Ashley and Bob Flood. 2004. A Scopoli's Shearwater off the
Isles of Scilly. Birding World 17(8):334-336.
Hope this helps.
Phil
At 23:59 09/22/2004 -0400, George Armistead wrote:
>Reading this thread I like Brian Patteson have been wondering about the
>composition of Cory's Shearwater in North America. Most of the birds we
>see off
>of NC are borealis but an uncertain amount are of the nominate form. The dutch
>actually split what was formerly Cory's Shearwater into three species: Cory's
>Shearwater (C.d.borealis), Scopoli's Shearwater (C.d.diomedea), and Cape Verde
>Shearwater (C.d.edwardsii). The first two forms, at least to my eyes seem
>poorly differentiated. My understanding is that nominate birds tend to be
>slightly smaller, slightly darker-headed and darker-billed and more
>extensively
>pale on the underwing than borealis.
>
>Can anyone provide good clues on separating these birds in the field? Has
>anyone
>looked at any collections or specimens taken from the east coast of NA and
>obtained at least a rough idea of how many nominate birds occur there?
==================================
Phil Davis Davidsonville, Maryland USA
mailto:PDavis(AT)ix.netcom.com
==================================
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Cory's Shearwater ssp.
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 25 Sep 2004 2:27pm
I am not sure where this thread came from, but, by coincidence, I recently
posted some pictures of Calonectris shearwaters off Senegal:
http://magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=942
The expected bird in Senegal, apart from edwardsii, is diomedea, however,
there seems to be a complete spectrum of birds between birds with a black
hand and birds with a white hand. Birds from the Canaries may be
intermediate (pers comm from Ricard Gutiérrez) - so work needs to be done on
diagnosing diomedea and borealis.
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK
On 25/9/04 8:30 pm, "Phil Davis" <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
> Hi George, et al.
>
> My copy of Birding World arrived yesterday (in the US), containing a good
> reference article with photos:
>
> Fisher, Ashley and Bob Flood. 2004. A Scopoli's Shearwater off the
> Isles of Scilly. Birding World 17(8):334-336.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Phil
>
>
> At 23:59 09/22/2004 -0400, George Armistead wrote:
>> Reading this thread I like Brian Patteson have been wondering about the
>> composition of Cory's Shearwater in North America. Most of the birds we
>> see off
>> of NC are borealis but an uncertain amount are of the nominate form. The
>> dutch
>> actually split what was formerly Cory's Shearwater into three species:
Cory's
>> Shearwater (C.d.borealis), Scopoli's Shearwater (C.d.diomedea), and Cape
>> Verde
>> Shearwater (C.d.edwardsii). The first two forms, at least to my eyes seem
>> poorly differentiated. My understanding is that nominate birds tend to be
>> slightly smaller, slightly darker-headed and darker-billed and more
>> extensively
>> pale on the underwing than borealis.
>>
>> Can anyone provide good clues on separating these birds in the field? Has
>> anyone
>> looked at any collections or specimens taken from the east coast of NA and
>> obtained at least a rough idea of how many nominate birds occur there?
>
> ==================================
> Phil Davis Davidsonville, Maryland USA
> mailto:PDavis(AT)ix.netcom.com
> ==================================
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Update Re: ID of a cormorant from the
UK
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 25 Sep 2004 3:46pm
Dear all,
I'd like to thank all those from the other side of the Pond who have helped
me catch-up on cormorant ID. This is a prime example of this forum at its
best.
I've updated my web page to include conclusions, ID features, and
comparative photos, for DC Cormorant, nominate Great Cormorant (carbo) and
the form sinensis, which I hope will be of help to other New World birders
who may not have their fingers on the pulse of this matter:
http://www.martinreid.com/cormorant.html
- if I've made any mistakes or significant omissions, please do inform me,
and as always, I invite comment/feedback.
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Jaeger ID question
From: Cliff and Lisa Weisse <october(AT)IDA.NET>
Date: 25 Sep 2004 8:51pm
I was asked to post this inquiry by Barb Putnam for the
Biodiversity Institute (BDI, www.bdi/org). They have an
online field guide and the ID of one of the juvenile jaegers
is in question. Barb put together a web page including the
photo and some comments on the bird's ID at
http://home.earthlink.net/~barbolink1/BrdLnks/JaegerPage.html.
Any comments regarding the ID of this individual would be
appreciated. Thanks.
Barb asked me to mention that the photo is copyrighted by
John Judge.
Cliff
Cliff and Lisa Weisse
Island Park, ID
october(AT)ida.net
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