ID-FRONTIERS for October 17-23, 2004

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: Gull Book Confusion   Richard H. Payne   Sun, 17 Oct 2004   9:37am   Reply: Gull Book Confusion   sales(AT)BIRDINGWORLD.C   Sun, 17 Oct 2004   10:03am   Madera Canyon Elegant Trogons   Susan Birky    Sun, 17 Oct 2004   9:17pm   Tucson Valley Christmas Bird Count   Susan Birky    Sun, 17 Oct 2004   9:19pm   Re: Possible_South_Polar_Skua?=   Stefan Hage    Mon, 18 Oct 2004   7:02am   Madera Canyon Trogons   Susan Birky    Mon, 18 Oct 2004   7:56am   Re: Possible South Polar Skua   Dick Newell    Mon, 18 Oct 2004   12:29pm   help with Empid from south Texas   Martin Reid    Tue, 19 Oct 2004   6:53am   Re: Possible South Polar Skua   Paul A. Guris   Tue, 19 Oct 2004   10:52am   Re: Possible South Polar Skua   Dick Newell    Tue, 19 Oct 2004   2:23pm   Snipe ID: request for photos, etc.   Martin Reid    Wed, 20 Oct 2004   6:07am   UnID bird- thrush?   Rafael Lizarralde    Fri, 22 Oct 2004   2:02pm   Mystery passerine from Italy   Menotti Passarella    Fri, 22 Oct 2004   3:12pm   The Gull Book: A very preliminary review   Jonathan Simms    Sat, 23 Oct 2004   2:11am   Parkinson's Petrel?   Peter Pyle    Sat, 23 Oct 2004   9:21am   Re: Mystery passerine from Italy   Dick Newell    Sat, 23 Oct 2004   1:32pm

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'. This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

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Subject: Re: Gull Book Confusion
From: "Richard H. Payne" <rhp(AT)SHSU.EDU>
Date: 17 Oct 2004 9:37am

At 02:00 AM 10/17/2004, Mike Patterson wrote:

>Confused? Don't be.
>
>This from WorldTwitch ( http://www.worldtwitch.com/helm.htm ):
>"Klaus Malling Olsen & Hans Larsson (illustrator). Gulls of Europe,
>Asia and North America. 544 pages. Helm & Princeton University Press.
>Corrected printing forthcoming 2004. The first printing contained so
>many errors that it was recalled by the publishers. See BirdWG01
>for errata. US | UK "
>
>Different continents, different publishers, same book.

ABA Sales shows the book being available in late November. They have not
heard differently from the publisher, although the Princeton University
Press web site now shows "December" as the publication date.

You can see Princeton's description at
<http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/7362.html>.

         Dick

Richard H. Payne, Ph.D.
P.O. Box 9710
Huntsville, TX 77340-0029
E-Mail: rhp(AT)shsu.edu


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Subject: Reply: Gull Book Confusion
From: sales(AT)BIRDINGWORLD.CO.UK
Date: 17 Oct 2004 10:03am

Hi Dick
To clarify,

'Gulls' was published in UK earlier this month.
We've been posting them out for a while, and we've got lots of 'em here on
the shelf...

cheers
Richard
Books for Birders www.birdingworld.co.uk

Gulls
Ģ57.75 inc airmail postage to USA (c$98.00 @1.7$=1Ģ)

sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
(Birding World, Books for Birders & Birdline)
Bird Information Service, Stonerunner, Coast Road,
Cley next the Sea, Holt, Norfolk, NR25 7RZ, UK
Tel. 44 (0) 1263 741139  Fax. 741173
....................................

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard H. Payne" <rhp(AT)SHSU.EDU>
To: <>
Sent: 17 October 2004 17:26
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Gull Book Confusion

> At 02:00 AM 10/17/2004, Mike Patterson wrote:
>
> >Confused? Don't be.
> >
> >This from WorldTwitch ( http://www.worldtwitch.com/helm.htm ):
> >"Klaus Malling Olsen & Hans Larsson (illustrator). Gulls of Europe,
> >Asia and North America. 544 pages. Helm & Princeton University Press.
> >Corrected printing forthcoming 2004. The first printing contained so
> >many errors that it was recalled by the publishers. See BirdWG01
> >for errata. US | UK "
> >
> >Different continents, different publishers, same book.
>
>
> ABA Sales shows the book being available in late November. They have not
> heard differently from the publisher, although the Princeton University
> Press web site now shows "December" as the publication date.
>
> You can see Princeton's description at
> <http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/7362.html>.
>
>          Dick
>
> Richard H. Payne, Ph.D.
> P.O. Box 9710
> Huntsville, TX 77340-0029
> E-Mail: rhp(AT)shsu.edu


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Subject: Madera Canyon Elegant Trogons
From: Susan Birky <sbirky(AT)MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: 17 Oct 2004 9:17pm

This afternoon in Madera Canyon, at about 4pm, we saw two male Elegant
Trogons on the Vault Mine Trail about 1/2 mile from the upper parking lot.

Susan and Bill Birky


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Subject: Tucson Valley Christmas Bird Count
From: Susan Birky <sbirky(AT)MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: 17 Oct 2004 9:19pm

     The Tucson Valley Christmas Bird Count will be held Sunday, December
19, 2004.  Last year we had 71 participants and as always we need more
people to count birds in their yards and at their feeders.  A $5.00
participation fee defrays a portion of the cost of tabulating and
publishing the count results.  If you are interested in participating or
have any questions, please contact Susan Birky at 743-9390,
sbirky(AT)mindspring.com or Tina Eggert, 578-7019, tinaeggert(AT)qwest.net.  We
hope you will join us.
     A complete list of  2004-2005 Christmas Birds Counts in Arizona,
including compilers and contact information, has been compiled by Walter
Thurber and can be accessed at www.tucsonaudubon.org.


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Subject: Re: Possible_South_Polar_Skua?=
From: Stefan Hage <stefan(AT)BIRDS.SE>
Date: 18 Oct 2004 7:02am

Hello all.

I give it another try.

In 1991 I managed to take a few photos of what I first thought was a Great
Skua but when the film was developed after a few weeks I was really
surprised to see a great contrast between a light brown-grey belly and
dark wing-undersides. Aha ! Could this be a South Polar Skua!?
I started to look at photos of South Polar Skua and also sent the photos
to the Swedish Rarities Commity but they could not say what it was.

Are there anyone on this list who could say if itīs a South Polar Skua or
just an extremely light Great Skua I would bee pleased.
I think you have had a few records of S-P Skuas in USA and it would be
very interesting to here the opinion of what these pictures show.

The quality of the photos arenīt the best but some details are possible to
see.
You could find the pictures here:
http://www.hallof.se/bird/imglistor.asp?Qimg=374

The site are in Swedish but at http://www.birds.se you can find an
entrance in English.

Greetings

Stefan Hage
Vallinsvagen 30
S-43237 Varberg
Sweden
http://www.birds.se
stefan(AT)birds.se


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Subject: Madera Canyon Trogons
From: Susan Birky <sbirky(AT)MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: 18 Oct 2004 7:56am

We saw two male trogons on Sunday (10/17) at 4pm on the Vault Mine Trail in
Madera Canyon.  They were about 1/2 mile from the upper parking lot.

Susan and Bill Birky


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Subject: Re: Possible South Polar Skua
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 18 Oct 2004 12:29pm

Re Catharacta skua on http://www.birds.se
The obvious hood on this bird makes me doubt that it is a South Polar. I
cannot make out the age of the bird, but the plumage coloration is
consistent with a pale phase juvenile Great Skua (especially the hood).
Also, the bird does not look compact enough for a South Polar - but this is
subjective. It seems to have lost its outer tail feathers - which perhaps is
not due to moult, but accidental loss.  I would say that it is highly likely
a Great Skua.
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK
PS I have some Catharacta pictures here which you might find useful for
comparison: http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=347


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Subject: help with Empid from south Texas
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 19 Oct 2004 6:53am

Dear all,
I'd appreciate feedback on the ID of this Empid:
http://www.martinreid.com/empid4.html
- in the field I felt it was a Western-type, which would be a significant
record from this part of Texas, but I lack much experience with this
species-pair - thanks.
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


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Subject: Re: Possible South Polar Skua
From: "Paul A. Guris" <list-servers(AT)paulagics.com>
Date: 19 Oct 2004 10:52am

Dick-

I have a few questions about your comments on the skua.  Most of this comes
from
my lack of experience with numbers of Great Skua, and with never having seen
one
close to the plumage of the Swedish bird.

> The obvious hood on this bird makes me doubt that it is a South Polar.

I'm a bit confused about this.  South Polar seems to often show a hooded effect
in a light bird.  Some of the pics on your web site seem to show this quite
clearly.  I have a list below of pics available on the web that all show a
hooded effect to some degree.  Does the Swedish bird seem more or differently
hooded than the birds below to you?

    http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=376
    http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=393
    http://www.aviceda.org/abid/images/data/1063239178.jpg
    http://patteson.com/images/0811n6%20copy.JPG
    http://patteson.com/images/0811n15%20copy.JPG
    http://patteson.com/images/spsk.JPG
    http://home.att.net/~hsk3/spsk.htm
    http://www.tsuru-bird.net/japan2/skua_south_polar3.jpg
    http://www.southfloridabirding.com/html/south_polar_skua.html

BTW, even Olsen and Larrson shows a light bird looking hooded.  (I only have
this web image.  I don't have access to the actual book right now):

    http://www.yale.edu/yup/images/olsen3.jpg

> but the plumage coloration is consistent with a pale phase
> juvenile Great Skua (especially the hood).

Is the bird at the link below what you consider to be a typical pale phase
juvenile bird?  If so, is it unusual in that it does not show a real hood, just
a very vague color difference between face and nape?

    http://www.latrabjarg.is/Voegel/englisch/Skua.htm

Thanks for your time.

-PAG

Paul A. Guris
See Life Paulagics
P.O. Box 161
Green Lane, PA  18054
www.paulagics.com
215-234-6805
info(AT)paulagics.com

Quoting Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>:

> Re Catharacta skua on http://www.birds.se
> The obvious hood on this bird makes me doubt that it is a South Polar. I
> cannot make out the age of the bird, but the plumage coloration is
> consistent with a pale phase juvenile Great Skua (especially the hood).
> Also, the bird does not look compact enough for a South Polar - but this is
> subjective. It seems to have lost its outer tail feathers - which perhaps is
> not due to moult, but accidental loss.  I would say that it is highly likely
> a Great Skua.
> Dick Newell
> Cambridge, UK
> PS I have some Catharacta pictures here which you might find useful for
> comparison: http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=347
>


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Subject: Re: Possible South Polar Skua
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 19 Oct 2004 2:23pm

Hi Paul,
Good questions: you are right that South Polar can look darker about the
head, but in my experience, it is not as dark as the Swedish bird, nor is it
as extensive as the complete hood shown on juvenile Great Skua, in which the
hood extends onto the chin and throat. South Polars often look more
dark-faced than hooded. There is the odd picture around of apparent South
Polars with a complete hood e.g. In Olsen and Larsson fig 39 page 99 (also
an August bird!).
There is a limit to how much one can read into the Swedish pictures: one
needs better focus and a view of the upper-side, but in my opinion, it feels
like a Bonxie - but that is a subjective assessment.
The picture in Iceland: well, was it taken in Iceland? And even if it was,
is it a Bonxie? If it is, then I have learned something. I would have called
this an adult pale phase South Polar.
Thanks for your questions.
Dick

On 19/10/04 6:52 pm, "Paul A. Guris" <list-servers(AT)PAULAGICS.COM> wrote:

> Dick-
>
> I have a few questions about your comments on the skua.  Most of this comes
> from
> my lack of experience with numbers of Great Skua, and with never having seen
> one
> close to the plumage of the Swedish bird.
>
>
>> The obvious hood on this bird makes me doubt that it is a South Polar.
>
> I'm a bit confused about this.  South Polar seems to often show a hooded
> effect
> in a light bird.  Some of the pics on your web site seem to show this quite
> clearly.  I have a list below of pics available on the web that all show a
> hooded effect to some degree.  Does the Swedish bird seem more or differently
> hooded than the birds below to you?
>
>   http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=376
>   http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=393
>   http://www.aviceda.org/abid/images/data/1063239178.jpg
>   http://patteson.com/images/0811n6%20copy.JPG
>   http://patteson.com/images/0811n15%20copy.JPG
>   http://patteson.com/images/spsk.JPG
>   http://home.att.net/~hsk3/spsk.htm
>   http://www.tsuru-bird.net/japan2/skua_south_polar3.jpg
>   http://www.southfloridabirding.com/html/south_polar_skua.html
>
> BTW, even Olsen and Larrson shows a light bird looking hooded.  (I only have
> this web image.  I don't have access to the actual book right now):
>
>   http://www.yale.edu/yup/images/olsen3.jpg
>
>
>> but the plumage coloration is consistent with a pale phase
>> juvenile Great Skua (especially the hood).
>
> Is the bird at the link below what you consider to be a typical pale phase
> juvenile bird?  If so, is it unusual in that it does not show a real hood,
> just
> a very vague color difference between face and nape?
>
>   http://www.latrabjarg.is/Voegel/englisch/Skua.htm
>
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
>
> -PAG
>
> Paul A. Guris
> See Life Paulagics
> P.O. Box 161
> Green Lane, PA  18054
> www.paulagics.com
> 215-234-6805
> info(AT)paulagics.com
>
>
>
> Quoting Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>:
>
>> Re Catharacta skua on http://www.birds.se
>> The obvious hood on this bird makes me doubt that it is a South Polar. I
>> cannot make out the age of the bird, but the plumage coloration is
>> consistent with a pale phase juvenile Great Skua (especially the hood).
>> Also, the bird does not look compact enough for a South Polar - but this is
>> subjective. It seems to have lost its outer tail feathers - which perhaps is
>> not due to moult, but accidental loss.  I would say that it is highly likely
>> a Great Skua.
>> Dick Newell
>> Cambridge, UK
>> PS I have some Catharacta pictures here which you might find useful for
>> comparison: http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=347
>>


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Subject: Snipe ID: request for photos, etc.
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 20 Oct 2004 6:07am

Dear all,
I am working on a Snipe ID paper, and I have gathered data in the field and
from many specimens - however, photos/specimens showing a FULLY open
underwing are scarce, and I could really do with a larger sample.  So I'd
be very grateful if anyone could provide me (offline) with actual photos,
or links to photos, of any delicata or gallinago snipe that show the
underwing.  NOTE: even slightly fuzzy pics may of help!  Also, if anyone
can refer me to a  museum that has a reasonable collection of snipe spread
wings (of either taxon), I'd appreciate it.
Thanks,
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


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Subject: UnID bird- thrush?
From: Rafael Lizarralde <wartiger(AT)TWCNY.RR.COM>
Date: 22 Oct 2004 2:02pm

This morning, while waiting for the bus to school, I saw a passerine fly
over and land on a branch. Since I remain without my glasses, I couldn't
tell what it was. It flew over a little farther, then I heard a very loud,
flutelike, PO po-po. It repeated that twice more, then the bus came,
roaring, and over the roar I think I heard a blue jay- maybe the bird was a
mockingbird? My other suspicion is that it is a thrush. I was wondering if
anybody could help me ID it- or send some helpful sound clips of possible
birds?

This was in Ithaca, New York (upstate).

~Rafael Lizarralde


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Subject: Mystery passerine from Italy
From: Menotti Passarella <menotti.passarella(AT)LIBERO.IT>
Date: 22 Oct 2004 3:12pm

Mistnetted at Marettimo island, off Sicily, S Italy in early October
wing 71 mm
third rem 52 mm
weight 22,5 gr.
Photos:
http://www.geocities.com/migliarino2004/Becc.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/migliarino2004/Becc2.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/migliarino2004/Becc4.JPG
Thanks
Menotti Passarella
info(AT)birdingitaly.com
www.birdingitaly.net


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Subject: The Gull Book: A very preliminary review
From: Jonathan Simms <jaeger77(AT)T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: 23 Oct 2004 2:11am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

My copy of the corrected Gulls of Europe, Asia and North America arrived =
this morning and I thought I would present a very preliminary review to =
the list. I will endeavour to go back and review it more thoroughly, =
hopefully sooner rather than later.

I have not scrutinized the photos and the plates, which many ID =
Frontiers readers will recall had numerous errors. I focused primarily =
on the maps, which I felt were weak in the original. I have to say they =
are much better in the corrected version! It seems to me that at least =
half of the maps were changed/corrected/updated. There are a very few =
remaining imperfections (Lesser Black-backed and Thayer's within North =
America) however. Overall: nicely done.

Other cursory observations:
- Plate 26 (wingtip patterns) appears to be corrected in terms of =
depictions 1 through 4 (L. a. argentatus).
- If there were any changes to the text, they are not obvious upon =
cursury review. The Tables of Contents are the same (same page numbers =
for everything) and all of the species maps are on exactly the same =
pages as in the first version.

I look forward to reading this book in more depth. So far: everything =
looks good.

Sincerely,

Jonathan Simms
Moenchengladbach, Germany
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Subject: Parkinson's Petrel?
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle(AT)BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: 23 Oct 2004 9:21am

Hi all -

We are currently soliciting opinion about a Procelliiform seen off Point
Reyes, California, on 11 October 2004. Images can be viewed at

http://www.shearwaterjourneys.com/images/cb041011pix.htm

(the first eight shots), and a cleaned-up version of one of these is at

http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/gallery.htm

In the field, the bird was roughly the size of a Pink-footed Shearwater, it
flew like a petrel (being much more buoyant than Pink-footed or
Flesh-footed shearwater), and it had a bright pale base to the bill
(brighter than is evident in the back-lit images). Those who saw it are
confident that it was not a shearwater, leaving Parkinson's Petrel as the
leading candidate among known taxa. We are concerned, however, that the
bill seemed too small and the tubenares not as prominent as are found in
Parkinson's. We are wondering if individual, seasonal, and/or
age/sex-related variation in Parkinson's Petrel can explain the bill
features. Parkinson's Petrel has yet to be confirmed from California or
North American (north of Mexico) waters.

Thanks.

Peter Pyle


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Subject: Re: Mystery passerine from Italy
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 23 Oct 2004 1:32pm

This bird has 10 tail-feathers, so it is probably of the genus Cettia.
However, the wing-length (and weight) is a bit large for any western race
Cetti's and also the wing-formula is wrong, but it potentially could fit an
eastern race e.g. albiventris. The warm, rounded tail, greyish underparts,
pink bill-base and general structure also support Cetti's. Given the other
extraordinary Chinese vagrants that have appeared recently - could this be a
Manchurian Bush Warbler?
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK

On 22/10/04 11:12 pm, "Menotti Passarella" <menotti.passarella(AT)LIBERO.IT>
wrote:

> Mistnetted at Marettimo island, off Sicily, S Italy in early October
> wing 71 mm
> third rem 52 mm
> weight 22,5 gr.
> Photos:
> http://www.geocities.com/migliarino2004/Becc.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/migliarino2004/Becc2.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/migliarino2004/Becc4.JPG
> Thanks
> Menotti Passarella
> info(AT)birdingitaly.com
> www.birdingitaly.net