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ID-FRONTIERS for November 21-30, 2004
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| mixed Canada Goose flock | Mike Patterson | Sun, 21 Nov 2004 | 3:52pm |
| Trondheim Gull | Jim Pike | Sun, 21 Nov 2004 | 5:16pm |
| Re: Trondheim Gull | Jeff Gilligan | Sun, 21 Nov 2004 | 8:25pm |
| Re: Trondheim Gull | GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM | Mon, 22 Nov 2004 | 12:05am |
| Re: Trondheim Gull | Mike Patterson | Mon, 22 Nov 2004 | 9:22am |
| Female Goldeneye ID request for help | Cliff and Lisa Weiss | Mon, 22 Nov 2004 | 12:08pm |
| Taverneri vs Parvipes | SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM | Mon, 22 Nov 2004 | 9:35pm |
| Some thoughts on the new Gull guide | Paul Lehman | Tue, 23 Nov 2004 | 10:38am |
| Gull guide comments | Ottavio Janni | Tue, 23 Nov 2004 | 11:09am |
| Re: Female Goldeneye ID request for help | Cliff and Lisa Weiss | Wed, 24 Nov 2004 | 7:41am |
| pale Snow Bunting? | Ian Paulsen | Wed, 24 Nov 2004 | 2:46pm |
| A book for Christmas | Norman D.van Swelm | Thu, 25 Nov 2004 | 5:26pm |
| the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's Hummingbirds | Paul Lehman | Sat, 27 Nov 2004 | 4:54am |
| Re: the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's
Hummingbirds | Allen Chartier | Sat, 27 Nov 2004 | 7:38am |
| Re: the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's
Hummingbirds | Mike Patterson | Sat, 27 Nov 2004 | 9:50am |
| Re: the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's
Hummingbirds | Peter Pyle | Sat, 27 Nov 2004 | 1:34pm |
| the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's Hummingbirds | Allen Chartier | Sat, 27 Nov 2004 | 3:20pm |
| Re: the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's
Hummingbirds | Allen Chartier | Sat, 27 Nov 2004 | 7:27pm |
| Trondheim Gull | Jim Pike | Sat, 27 Nov 2004 | 8:36pm |
| Re: Trondheim Gull | Norman D.van Swelm | Sun, 28 Nov 2004 | 9:01am |
| Re: Trondheim Gull | Phillip Pickering | Sun, 28 Nov 2004 | 9:52am |
| Re: Trondheim Gull | Ian Paulsen | Sun, 28 Nov 2004 | 10:44am |
| Re: Trondheim Gull | Frode Falkenberg | Sun, 28 Nov 2004 | 11:41am |
| Canada Goose chin strap/line info | Glenn A dEntremont | Sun, 28 Nov 2004 | 5:44pm |
| Re: Canada Goose chin strap/line info | sales(AT)BIRDINGWORLD.C | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 2:29am |
| odd plumages and vagrancy | Matt Sharp | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 10:10am |
| Tundra and Trumpeter Swans | Kent Nickell | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 10:59am |
| Re: Tundra and Trumpeter Swans | SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 11:28am |
| Re: Tundra and Trumpeter Swans | John Idzikowski | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 11:36am |
| Re: Tundra and Trumpeter Swans | Bruce Deuel | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 12:40pm |
| Re: Tundra and Trumpeter Swans | Steve Sosensky | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 1:13pm |
| Re: odd plumages and vagrancy | sales(AT)BIRDINGWORLD.C | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 3:47pm |
| Re: odd plumages and vagrancy | Michael O'Keeffe | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 4:55pm |
| L. Mattamuskeet, NC Cackling Geese | ricky | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 6:00pm |
| Odd Plumages and Vagrants | SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 9:05pm |
| Re: L. Mattamuskeet, NC Cackling Geese | SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM | Mon, 29 Nov 2004 | 9:09pm |
| albatross...but which species? | Tony Pym | Tue, 30 Nov 2004 | 7:02am |
| Re: albatross...but which species? | Alvaro Jaramillo | Tue, 30 Nov 2004 | 8:44am |
| Re: L. Mattamuskeet, NC Cackling Geese | Bruce Deuel | Tue, 30 Nov 2004 | 10:51am |
| Re: odd plumages and vagrancy | Norman D.van Swelm | Tue, 30 Nov 2004 | 11:03am |
| Re: L. Mattamuskeet, NC Cackling Geese | Jean Iron | Tue, 30 Nov 2004 | 12:21pm |
| "new" Gull book | Ian Paulsen | Tue, 30 Nov 2004 | 3:53pm |
| Re: Odd Plumages and Vagrants | Peter Pyle | Tue, 30 Nov 2004 | 6:40pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: mixed Canada Goose flock
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 21 Nov 2004 3:52pm
Here's a fairly typical mixed flock of Canada Geese,
Wallooskee River, Clatsop Co, Oregon. These are from
video captures spliced to form a larger panorama taken
today.
http://home.pacifier.com/~mpatters/bird/cago_mix20041121.jpg
Higher resolution SLR camera pictures coming soon....
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
Nobody EXPECTS the Spanish Inquisition....
- Cardinal Ximinez
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Trondheim Gull
From: Jim Pike <jpike44(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 21 Nov 2004 5:16pm
Hi, Having birded in southern California for 17 years, I can say that I
have yet to see an adult Calif Gull with pink legs. Others I have spoken
with who have actively birded here for a longer period of time than I have
said the same thing. In addition, I can't recall seeing a Calif Gull with
red anterior to the black on the lower mandible, although this feature
wouldn't stand out as prominently as would pink legs on an adult. Whether
or not there is a photo of a pink-legged adult in 'Olsen's Gulls', I think
it can be safely said that if this bird is a Calif Gull, it represents a
rather extreme deviation from what is the norm in this species. Under the
circumstances, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable accepting this bird
as a first WP record.
Jim Pike
Huntington Beach, CA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Trondheim Gull
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 21 Nov 2004 8:25pm
I have birded in Oregon for over 40 years. California Gulls are common here
at all seasons. I have looked through thousands of adult California Gulls
through the years searching for unusual species. I have never seen an adult
California Gull with other than yellow, greenish, or gray-greenish legs. I
have never seen a adult with any hint of pinkish or reddish color in the
legs. I don't have the Olsen book yet, but it will be very interesting if
it purports to show an adult Cailfornia Gull with pink legs.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Trondheim Gull
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 22 Nov 2004 12:05am
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Hi all:
Well, I do have the Olsen book and the picture of concern must be number 126,
which shows three adult CAGUs in basic in BC in September. The legs of the
right bird can be inferred to be very dull pink and the legs of the left bird
appear a more typical ugly yellowy color. However, I would not be surprised if
the apparent leg color of the right bird is an artifact, somehow, as the
color is quite dull and not really all that much different from the bird
molting
into Basic III in picture 122 and which look grayish with a very slight pink
cast.
I am also in the camp of those that have looked at the very variable leg
color of thousands of adult California Gulls without finding a bird with legs
the
color of the Trondheim Gull.
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
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Subject: Re: Trondheim Gull
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 22 Nov 2004 9:22am
I'm sure I'm going to get in trouble for this, but I
think two points are worth mentioning....
1. In matters of color I defer to my wife, because like
many males, I'm mildly red/green color blind. Using the
old, "tainted" Olsen, I showed my wife photos 122 and 126
on the CAGU page. Her answers from left to right, "gray
with some greenish, greenish-gray, yellowish-green, yellowish
green". I scanned photo 126 and my color meter turned up
the same results.
Something like 8% of males are strongly red-green and many
more are like me, mildly color blind. I see red, I see green,
but I have trouble with greenish brown vs reddish brown.
I routinely claim to see greenish or reddish in places where
it isn't and often miss greenish or reddish in place where
it is. Color subtlty escapes me.
2. We're talking about the Olsen book, which was roundly
panned for mistakes including color processing errors.
I use my "tainted" copy of Olsen all the time, in spite of
the errors, but I wouldn't stake what little reputation
I have on colors I pulled out of photos in this reference.
And I have seen a couple jillion CAGU. The Trondhein Gull
is evocative, but something I'd let go.....
GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM wrote:
>
> Hi all:
>
> Well, I do have the Olsen book and the picture of concern must be
> number 126, which shows three adult CAGUs in basic in BC in
> September. The legs of the right bird can be inferred to be very dull
> pink and the legs of the left bird appear a more typical ugly yellowy
> color. However, I would not be surprised if the apparent leg color of
> the right bird is an artifact, somehow, as the color is quite dull and
> not really all that much different from the bird molting into Basic
> III in picture 122 and which look grayish with a very slight pink
> cast.
>
> I am also in the camp of those that have looked at the very variable
> leg color of thousands of adult California Gulls without finding a
> bird with legs the color of the Trondheim Gull.
>
> Tony Leukering
> Brighton, CO
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
Nobody EXPECTS the Spanish Inquisition....
- Cardinal Ximinez
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Female Goldeneye ID request for help
From: Cliff and Lisa Weisse <october(AT)IDA.NET>
Date: 22 Nov 2004 12:08pm
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In June, 2003 I saw a female Goldeneye with a brood of chicks in eastern =
Idaho. I originally ID'd the bird as a Common Goldeneye based mostly on =
bill color. Neither species of Goldeneye is a documented breeder in the =
area so I want to make sure of the ID. Photos are posted at =
www.octoberweb.com/birds/goldeneye. Thanks in advance if you can help.
Cliff
Cliff and Lisa Weisse
Island Park, ID
october(AT)ida.net
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Subject: Taverneri vs Parvipes
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 22 Nov 2004 9:35pm
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Greetings
The wild goose chase continues.
The following is from Joe Engler, I well-respected biologist at Ridgefield
NWR in sw WA, where a heck of a lot of geese happen to winter. BEFORE
contacting
Joe, I spent several hours with David Mandell at Ridgefield looking long and
hard at Canada/Cackling Geese. There were a heck of a lot of
taverneri/parvipes (about 20% of 5000+ birds). Personally, I couldn't tell. They
all looked
basically the same. Per Joe's note below, they may well have all been Taverneri
(I know, shouldn't be capitalized, but it makes reading these lengthy
paragraphs easier). The rub is that I saw a couple hundred Taverneri/Parvipes
the
previous day in e. WA. I couldn't establish any difference between the two
groups
(one in e. WA, one at Ridgefield) as a whole. There were certainly a few birds
at either end of the spectrum that, I guess, one could feel good about. I will
say one thing, the bird in MA was, without a doubt, towards the small and
dark end of the Taverneri/Parvipes geese I surveyed this weekend.
And, on an additional note, there were several Minima that could easily have
passed for birds on the Hutchins website, at least in color.
Ahhh, the joy of it all!!! Almost as good as gulls. See below for Joe
Engler's comments. The questions was, "What percentage of Tav/Par geese at
Ridgefield
are Parvipes?"
I don't have a good answer for you on that one. We have always lumped
taverneri and parvipes because of the difficulty in distinguishing them and
because neither has been a subspecies of concern. Parvipes has for the
most part been in the Aleutian status - i.e. an occasional bird but not
enough to get concerned about in terms of sorting out. Based on a few
collars, it appears that parvipes has been increasing somewhat here in the
last few years (or maybe stopping over longer before they head into the
Willamette Valley). I expect that they would be less than 2% of the
tav/parv count, but that is just a guess. My understanding is that most
parvipes stay east of the Cascades.
In general, our surveys show the goose flock for this area to be about 70%
cacklers, 3% duskies, 1% westerns, and 25% tavs/lessers. A few Vancouvers
and Aleutians are hypothesized to be in the flock that occurs on refuge,
and presumably the surrounding region. The low western percentage occurs
because we do not survey river shorelines and islands where most of the
westerns hang out. Goose flocks seem to be in a continual state of flux
and redistribution, so anything is possible with respect to more parvipes
being here.
Aleutians still appear to exist via a few individuals in this area. The
white neck rings are helpful though individuals of all subspecies can show
decent white neck rings. That coupled with the small size and flatter head
seem to be the only decent field characteristics. Like many of these goose
species/subspecies, alot of overlap occurs and many are indistinguishable
in the field. Even measurements can't distinguish them all. Although
Aleutians in general have increased considerably, the Semidi Island group
(that frequents the north and central Oregon Coast and presumably the one
that wanders into our area) is still in very low numbers and has not
recovered; therefore, I don't expect the Aleutian numbers here have
increased any in the last 5 years or so.
Best Wishes
Steven Mlodinow
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Subject: Some thoughts on the new Gull guide
From: Paul Lehman <lehman.paul(AT)VERIZON.NET>
Date: 23 Nov 2004 10:38am
IDFrontiers:
I picked up my copy of the new Olsen and Larsson gull guide a couple
days ago. I had briefly seen an earlier copy of the version that was
pulled from the market. In that earlier version I had seen quite a few
errors of information on status, distribution, and migration, and was
hoping most or all of them would be corrected in this new-and-improved
version. Unfortunately, such seems not to be the case. I have barely
thumbed through the book and have already noticed a bunch of incorrect
or misleading statements (some also with poor grammar, further
complicating interpretation). For example, statements about the Bering
Sea (in both Alaska and Russia) status and distribution of
Glaucous-winged, Slaty-backed, and Vega Gulls all have problems; and
data on the peak numbers of Lesser Black-backed Gulls in the East (e.g.,
in their stronghold in eastern PA) are obsolete. Now, if some of you
think this is splitting hairs, then look at the range map for Franklin's
Gull and note that the species is shown breeding in the western U.S.A.
only in approximately eastern Oregon and a bit of Idaho! I would assume
that a careful check of the book will turn up many other similar sorts
of errors.
As for the ID of birds....one species that has struck me already is
Slaty-backed Gull and a number of the photos of first-winter and
second-winter birds, particularly several of the photos between number
501 (which for some reason comes before photo 500) through 510. Now, I
must admit that despite spending some 250 days in early autumn at
Gambell, Alaska the past 5+ years--where I see up to several
Slaty-backeds most days I am there--I am still uncertain as to whether I
am seeing "pure," juvenile and first-summer/winter Slaty-backeds. I have
yet to feel comfortable identifying birds as such there, despite there
being the regular numbers of second-summers through adults (and at Nome,
200 miles away), regularly in the 10-20 birds per-fall-season range. So
we certainly assume that younger birds are present as well; but we are
leary calling some as such. The problem is, many birds there, and shown
in photos 500-510 look a lot like darker Glaucous-wingeds (which are
increasing in the norerthn Bering Sea and are now bordering on fairly
common), or like birds that are probably hybrids involving
Glaucous-wingeds in part (e.g., with Herring, Vega, or Slaty-backed).
There are certainly lots of hybrid gulls floating around the Bering Sea.
(I've also seen what looked like a likely mated pair of Slaty-backed and
Glaucous-winged with 2 juveniles at Attu Island in Sep 2000.) All those
hybrids, the SUBSTANTIAL VARIABILITY shown in a number of species
(ESPECIALLY Vega, and also Slaty-backed and Glaoucous-winged), and the
worn plumages shown by some of the birds in Aug/Sep, makes a fair amount
of the early-autumn gull study at Gambell and other nearby locations
rather frustrating! The feeling of "inadequacy" runs rampant!
Anway, back to the gull-guide photos....How's about photo 501: what
eliminates a hybrid Glaucous-winged X Hering/Vega? Or 507, 509, and 510:
doesn't the gray coming in on the mantle look awfully pale for
Slaty-backed?
I am not professing to know the answers. But so far, I have gotten more
confused!
Help!
--Paul Lehman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Gull guide comments
From: Ottavio Janni <coeligena(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 23 Nov 2004 11:09am
Hello all,
Like Paul Lehman I also recently bought a copy of the Olsen and Larsson gull
book, and like Paul I was also disappointed to see that many of the
inaccurate statements on distribution from the first printing were not
corrected. This was all the more disappointing since I had written Olsen to
point out some of these inaccuracies (such as California Gull being much
more regular on the east coast of the U.S. than the book indicates), yet not
only were the corrections not made, but I was also incorrectly cited for a
statement about California Gull races in the east that I did not make!
I do think the Olsen and Larsson book is a fantastic book and well worth
having, and I hope these comment will not discourage anyone from getting it
because it is an incredible resource, but it was somewhat annoyng to see
that these inaccuracies were still in the second printing despite the year
or more that this book was off the market.
cheers
Ottavio Janni
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Female Goldeneye ID request for help
From: Cliff and Lisa Weisse <october(AT)IDA.NET>
Date: 24 Nov 2004 7:41am
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Re: [BIRDWG01] Female Goldeneye ID request for helpSeveral people said =
the photos were too small so I tinkered with the images and added larger =
blowups of the head. They aren't very clear but I think you can see =
more detail on them. So far I've had nine responses and all agree with =
Common goldeneye (with one who couldn't say for sure due to photo size). =
Thanks again to all who've responded. =20
http://octoberweb.com/birds/goldeneye/
I know that Barrow's Goldeneye breeds in Yellowstone Park but it seems =
like Common Goldeneye would be out of it's normal breeding range. Does =
anyone know of any breeding records for the Rocky Mountains? This bird =
was in eastern Idaho not too far from (25 miles?) Yellowstone Park.=20
Cliff
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Subject: pale Snow Bunting?
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 24 Nov 2004 2:46pm
HI:
Dennis Paulson posted this to the tweeters listserver and wondered if it
could be a Snow x McKay's Bunting hybrid?
Hello, tweets.
The pale Snow Bunting I wrote about, along with its buddy, is on Caren
Park's web site (http://www.parkgallery.org/), where she was nice
enough to post it for me. I should add that Thor Manson, who works at
Harrison Hot Springs, has been unable to find the birds in the past two
days, so perhaps they've moved on (check your local beaches!).
Dennis
-----
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: A book for Christmas
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 25 Nov 2004 5:26pm
It's that time of year again and may I recommend a real gem? I just
received: 'The Grebes' by that brilliant artist and scientist, Norwegian
born Dr.Jon Fjeldsa. It's published by Oxford University Press and hence not
very cheap but definitely a great gift.
Norman
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's Hummingbirds
From: Paul Lehman <lehman.paul(AT)VERIZON.NET>
Date: 27 Nov 2004 4:54am
Hugh (and ID Frontiers):
To answer your question on why we thought these three vagrant,
female/immature male birds possibly/likely Allen's Hummingbirds rather
than
Rufous even before they were banded (and thus asked the banders to
quickly
show up!):
In each of the three Nov/Dec Allen's Hummingbirds that have shown up
here in
Cape May NJ during the past four years we thought the birds possibly or
likely Allen's before they were even banded and measured. In each case
the
birds (one female and two imm males) were noticeably worn, faded, and
showed
signs of active molt. The theory is that Allen's is a couple months
older
than a similar Rufous due to the former's particularly early nesting
schedule. We then looked at the uppertail coverts and, following Seve
Howell's info, noted that there appeared to be more rufous in the
uppertail
coverts region than in the average young (especially in females)
Rufous. So
far, all these characters are certainly decidedly "soft," but they do
"hint
at" Allen's. The two young males also suggested Allen's by having
obvious bright patches of new, fresh back feathers coming in on the back
that
strongly contrasted with the worn, faded, ugly, molting older plumage
that
dominated the rest of the birds--and these new feathers were all
ENTIRELY
GREEN. So, unless one believed these birds were one of those reported
full-green-backed Rufous... And then finally with superb scope views, or
better yet, excellent digital photos, we saw that R2 appeared smooth and
UNemarginated. The width (narrowness) of R5 was perhaps suggestive, but
one
is dealing only with VERY small differences here in rectrix width, so
one
has to wait for the actual measurements to be taken to be "sure."
There are still a few Doubting Thomases out there who wonder about most
of
these Allen's being reported in the East, and whether the published
measurements used to separate the birds are truly "safe." The original
paper
on the subject by Stiles was based on only a "preliminary analysis," but
that information has sinced been used as gospel. Also, many of the birds
being measured are not on the breeding grounds, so how much circular
logic
is there involved in all this? I certainly agree that a species with the
restricted breeding and winter ranges of Allen's does appear to occur in
the
East "more often" than one thinks "it should," though Van Remsen has an
interesting theory on why certain species of western hummingbirds occur
in
the East more than others do. I'll paste in his thoughts on that subject
below.
Hope this helps. Obviously one really cannot be sure with almost all
such
Rufous/Allen's in the field, especially if one is seeing a vagrant and
one
wants to be doubly sure, but so far our "hunches" based on the above
have,
in all three cases, turned out to be correct, IF published in-hand
differences between the two species are, in fact, safe.
--Paul Lehman
Paul et al. -- I don't see the difference between the Allen's
"problem" in terms of range anymore than I do, say Calliope (formerly
not known in the USA past early Oct). Also, as Stacy pointed out, the
rather ridiculous track record of vagrant hummingbirds should signal
that we toss out winter-season expectations generated from other
kinds of birds, say eastern warblers.
Furthermore, Allen's presence in numbers in eastern USA fits nicely
with the common denominator that all these western species wintering
in East show, namely that in late fall, their long-distance migration
route takes them through Sierra Madre Oriental region of NE Mexico
(Rufous, Broad-tailed) or interior NC Mexico (Allen's, Calliope,
Black-chinned). In contrast, the two westerners that are
under-achievers in East, Anna's and Costa's, don't migrate as far and
are scarce to unknown in NE/NC Mexico. Broad-billed, Magnificent,
and Blue-throated, all three surprisingly over-represented in the East,
are also present in the Sierra Madre Oriental. Buff-bellied is strictly
lowland, and so doesn't fit, but its pattern in the East also is unusual
in being amazingly restricted to the Gulf Coast.
Regardless, genetic samples would be nice to corroborate, eventually,
all the Allen's IDs.
--
Van Remsen
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's
Hummingbirds
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 27 Nov 2004 7:38am
Paul,
Interesting discussion, though I don't think I saw the original
post/question.
Before I reply, I should state that I am a hummingbird bander, and my
banding experience includes more than 2,000 Ruby-throats (since 2000), as
well as a total of 24 Rufous in Michigan, Ohio, and northern Indiana, as
well as working briefly in the south with another bander in February 2003 to
gain more experience with Rufous (35 handled) and Allen's (3 handled), as
well as Black-chinned and Calliope (Buff-bellied was a bonus!).
The idea that Allen's Hummingbirds might be more likely to be in active molt
at this time of year because of their earlier breeding season seems, on
first pass, a logical idea. But, what has become more widely known among
hummingbird banders is that Rufous Hummingbirds are frequently in active
molt (body and flight feathers) between August and late October. Banders on
the breeding grounds of Rufous do not detect any molt in these birds before
they depart, so they appear to be molting during migration and while on-site
at locations in the East. Nothing has yet been published on this, however.
This schedule, along with some other surprising aspects of their molt, will
apparently soon be published, but I don't have the specifics. For the most
part, Pyle does not indicate molt in Rufous during this time, and neither
does Calder in the Birds of North America account. So, the bottom line is
that I would use caution when attempting to identify a vagrant
Rufous/Allen's in the East based on the presence active molt.
The amount of rufous present on the upper tail coverts of immature males
might be a "soft" identification character, but in my opinion it is as soft
as quicksand :-) Last year, I banded two immature male Rufous, both with
clearly "notched" r2s, one in late September in Michgan, and one in early
November in Ohio. Both birds were showing active body and flight feather
molt. Both birds had green backs and rufous rumps when captured, but both
continued molting their body feathers after being banded, and within 3 weeks
their backs were 80-90% rufous. So, more rufous on the upper tail coverts
seems as likely to indicate molt progression in a Rufous as it might
indicate an Allen's. (Female Rufous, adults and immatures, typically show
NO rufous in upper tail coverts...I've never handled a female with rufous in
the upper tail coverts, and only one adult female with only slightest pale
rufous fringing on a few rump feathers, which would not likely have been
detected in the field).
The observation of contrasting brighter, fresher green feathers among older
duller green on the back is probably a fairly good suggestive character for
Allen's, barring the unusual occurrence of green-backed adult male Rufous
that are known to occur.
Paul's suggestion that judging the narrowness of r5 can be difficult or
impossible is very well taken. According to Stiles (caveats previously
mentioned notwithstanding), the difference between immature female Rufous
and Allen's can be as little as only 0.3 mm. And, just to make things more
difficult, I should mention that apparently the first specimen of Allen's to
be collected in Louisiana was a better match for the sedentarius race!
And finally, on the routes and timing of Rufous appearing in the east,
Remsen's idea is well known to most hummingbird banders, and it has some
merit. It does seem to explain the appearance of Rufous Hummingbirds in
late October in the Upper Midwest and Northeast after an absence of
Ruby-throats. However, it does not explain the not-insubstantial number of
Rufous that have shown up here as early as mid-August or early September.
Another idea that is out there, which seems just as logical, is that birds
would arrive in eastern locales directly from their Pacific Northwest
breeding grounds, perhaps stopping along the way when flowers and insects
are still available, and continuing on when conditions change, with some
individuals eventually finding our bird feeders. And, of course, the actual
precise arrival date of many Rufous in the east cannot be determined because
the bird's presence is often not noted until all the Ruby-throats depart and
only one bird, the Rufous, remains. It should be noted that, so far, there
is little or no banding-recovery data that I am aware of to support or
refute any of these scenarios.
Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI 48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet/index.htm
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's
Hummingbirds
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 27 Nov 2004 9:50am
I've been banding Rufous Hummingbirds on their breeding
grounds in Coastal Pacific Northwest for 25 years now.
The notion that green-back Rufous Hummingbirds are rare
is semantical and it appears that the green-backed condition
may be age related. The fully green-backed condition is
rare, but one can find some green flecking on the backs of
most birds and 30% or more green in about 30% of birds
captured between February and June on the breeding grounds.
Younger birds may be more likely to have green backs (those
closer to SY) than olders birds. I believe Bob Sargent has the
best data on this, but I have some data that can be interpreted
this way based on the assumption that older males return before
younger males to the breeding grounds. See:
http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/humm/gbRUHU_phen.html
As to migration, I support the big circle model which we can
strongly demonstrated for spring migration based on analysis of
first detection reports.
See: http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/humm/count.html
Most adult Rufous males disappear from the Oregon Coast by mid-June.
We were capturing HY birds this spring by mid-May (arguably just
as early as some Allen's). My life gets too busy past May for me
to keep track of movements away from the breeding grounds, but I
routinely start getting reports east of the Rockies beginning in
August. I think a significant number over shoot the expected route
south through the Rockies.
It does not appear that Allen's Hummingbirds venture north of
Coos Co., Oregon post-breeding. There are, to my knowledge,
only 2 specimen records of Allen's north of their breeding
grounds (Philomath, OR and western WA). Dennis Vroman starts
catching Allen's Hummingbird, post-breeding in the Siskiyous
beginning late-June to early-July. So, a northward dispersal is
probably rare and Allen's have a more localized circular migration
pattern that goes upslope to the east and then down through
the Sierra Nevadas (this is purely conjectural). Van Remsen's
model is the only one that works for Allen's Hummingbirds in
the east (in my opinion).
For now, Stiles is all we have for sorting Rufous/Allen's as
far as tail morphology goes. I personally suspect there is more
overlap than suspected. And then there's the ugly (and as yet
undemonstrated) possibility of hybrids. The only guaranteed way
to sort birds not in hand is by rectrix shape and this may not be
reliable in all HY birds. I trust my collegues in Louisiana and
Alabama re Allen's Hummingbirds, but I am less confident about
sight records, especially north of the Mason-Dixon....
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
- Arlo Guthrie
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's
Hummingbirds
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle(AT)BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: 27 Nov 2004 1:34pm
A relevant paper on Selasphorus migrations through California by Howell and
Gardali (2003) appeared in Journal of Field Ornithology; abstract at:
http://apt.allenpress.com/aptonline/?request=get-abstract&issn=0273-8570&volume=074&issue=01&page=0017
The measurements of Stiles have been updated and fully tested by banders in
California, and appear to be reliable (with a small number of intermediates
found, perhaps hybrids). It is important to first age and sex the
individual before attempting to apply the rectrix criteria.
The cautions about molting patterns in out-of-range birds are well taken. I
am beginning to believe that molt patterns are more influenced by
environmental factors than genetic factors. Among monotypic (at the
subspecies level) Black-bellied Plovers, for example, birds that winter in
south-temperate latitudes (in both Africa and South America) have
completely different molts than those that winter in north-temperate
latitudes. There could still be a genetic component dictating both
migration distance and molt. But molt strategies are controlled by hormonal
cycles that are strongly tied in with both breeding cycles and light
regimes. Thus, I would anticipate a Selasphorus hummingbird wintering at
the U.S. latitudes to show a molting strategy at variance with those on the
Mexican circuit. It will be very interesting to see the results of studies
on molt in these northern-wintering birds.
Peter Pyle
At 08:51 AM 11/27/04 -0800, Mike Patterson wrote:
>I've been banding Rufous Hummingbirds on their breeding
>grounds in Coastal Pacific Northwest for 25 years now.
>The notion that green-back Rufous Hummingbirds are rare
>is semantical and it appears that the green-backed condition
>may be age related. The fully green-backed condition is
>rare, but one can find some green flecking on the backs of
>most birds and 30% or more green in about 30% of birds
>captured between February and June on the breeding grounds.
>
>Younger birds may be more likely to have green backs (those
>closer to SY) than olders birds. I believe Bob Sargent has the
>best data on this, but I have some data that can be interpreted
>this way based on the assumption that older males return before
>younger males to the breeding grounds. See:
>http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/humm/gbRUHU_phen.html
>
>As to migration, I support the big circle model which we can
>strongly demonstrated for spring migration based on analysis of
>first detection reports.
>See: http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/humm/count.html
>Most adult Rufous males disappear from the Oregon Coast by mid-June.
>We were capturing HY birds this spring by mid-May (arguably just
>as early as some Allen's). My life gets too busy past May for me
>to keep track of movements away from the breeding grounds, but I
>routinely start getting reports east of the Rockies beginning in
>August. I think a significant number over shoot the expected route
>south through the Rockies.
>
>It does not appear that Allen's Hummingbirds venture north of
>Coos Co., Oregon post-breeding. There are, to my knowledge,
>only 2 specimen records of Allen's north of their breeding
>grounds (Philomath, OR and western WA). Dennis Vroman starts
>catching Allen's Hummingbird, post-breeding in the Siskiyous
>beginning late-June to early-July. So, a northward dispersal is
>probably rare and Allen's have a more localized circular migration
>pattern that goes upslope to the east and then down through
>the Sierra Nevadas (this is purely conjectural). Van Remsen's
>model is the only one that works for Allen's Hummingbirds in
>the east (in my opinion).
>
>For now, Stiles is all we have for sorting Rufous/Allen's as
>far as tail morphology goes. I personally suspect there is more
>overlap than suspected. And then there's the ugly (and as yet
>undemonstrated) possibility of hybrids. The only guaranteed way
>to sort birds not in hand is by rectrix shape and this may not be
>reliable in all HY birds. I trust my collegues in Louisiana and
>Alabama re Allen's Hummingbirds, but I am less confident about
>sight records, especially north of the Mason-Dixon....
>
>--
>Mike Patterson
>Astoria, OR
>celata(AT)pacifier.com
>
>If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
> - Arlo Guthrie
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's Hummingbirds
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 27 Nov 2004 3:20pm
I'm a hummingbird bander in Nashville, TN, and Portia Macmillan and I
band winter hummers in TN and KY. Re: Allen Chartier's comments on the
possibility of Rufous Hummingbirds migrating directly from the NW to the
SE, we have a couple of data points that support this hypothesis. On
two separate occasions, we have "intercepted" male Rufouses (one HY, one
AHY) in October, only to have them recaptured southeast of us later in
the season. In one case, we caught an AHY-M in Memphis, and it had
previously been banded on the gulf coast of Florida. It was later
recaptured again at the original banding location. The instance was
last fall, when we captured an AHY-M Rufous in Columbia, TN, and Bob
Sargent later recaptured it in Section, AL. In the latter case, the
bird was only present at the Columbia location for about 24 hours.
Each year, we get a small number of reports of AHY-M Rufouses in late
August, but these birds rarely stay for more than a day or two. I have
also long suspected that other age/sex classes are occurring during that
time period, but are (understandably) not detected among the barbarian
hordes of Ruby-throats. In fact, not long after I made that statement
in an article, we captured a female that had been detected by astute
observers in Nashville in mid-September.
The bulk of the reports we get are from late Oct through November, but I
suspect many of these birds are in fact arriving during Ruby-throat
migration.
So, in my opinion, I think we're seeing both patterns here - i.e. some
direct NE to SE migrants, and some circular migrants.
regards,
Chris Sloan
Nashville, TN
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Allen Chartier
> Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 8:43 AM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's
> Hummingbirds
>
>
> Paul,
>
>
> [SNIP]
>
> Another idea that is out there, which seems
> just as logical, is that birds would arrive in eastern
> locales directly from their Pacific Northwest breeding
> grounds, perhaps stopping along the way when flowers and
> insects are still available, and continuing on when
> conditions change, with some individuals eventually finding
> our bird feeders. And, of course, the actual precise arrival
> date of many Rufous in the east cannot be determined because
> the bird's presence is often not noted until all the
> Ruby-throats depart and only one bird, the Rufous, remains.
> It should be noted that, so far, there is little or no
> banding-recovery data that I am aware of to support or refute
> any of these scenarios.
>
> Allen Chartier
> amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
> 1442 West River Park Drive
> Inkster, MI 48141
> Website: http://www.amazilia.net
> Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet/index.htm
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: the Cape May--and Eastern--Allen's
Hummingbirds
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 27 Nov 2004 7:27pm
Mike,
I should have made my comment on green-backed adult male Rufous more clear.
With my small data set of adult males, I've seen perhaps 25-30% with all
rufous backs, with all the rest with between 10-30% green flecking. I've
never handled one with an entirely green back, though I've seen a couple.
With the green-backed birds, the assessments of how much green is present
seems often to be higher than once the bird is in-hand.
Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI 48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet/index.htm
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Trondheim Gull
From: Jim Pike <jpike44(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 27 Nov 2004 8:36pm
Before the Trondheim thread completely unravels, I'd like to mention the
result yesterday of spending more time scrutinizing California Gull bills
and legs than I ever care to do again. To my surprise, in a flock which
contained a minimum of 600 adult CAGUs, I was able to find one adult with
pink legs. Granted, they were a chalky, washed-out, fleshy-pink, but they
were, nonetheless, essentially 'pink'. In addition, I found one adult with
diminished black on the bill and a smudge of red anterior to the black.
Strangely, this 'extralimital' red wasn't present on the other side of the
bill. I can only conclude from this informal survey that it wouldn't be
impossible for one bird to exhibit both of these rare features. However, I
think it still stretches credulity to suggest an individual as decidely
rare as this would then be the first of its kind to make its way to
Norway.
Jim Pike
Huntington Beach, CA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Trondheim Gull
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 28 Nov 2004 9:01am
As you know Jim the Trondheim bird arrived in immature plumage and it still
is rather young. In gulls some adult characters develope faster than others.
Yellow legs so typical for adult Lesser Black-backed and Yellow-legged Gulls
f.i. may, in some individuals, develope when the gull is in it's 5th or 6th
year. So, who knows, if this gull keeps returning to Trondheim, one day it
lives up to your expectations. In the mean time I hope our friends in
Trondheim manage to colour-ring the bird and may be it will keep challenging
our believes! On the other hand if it remains as it is there seems to be no
barrier left not to accept that the Trondheim gull is in fact a California
Gull!
Norman
Jim Pike wrote:> I'd like to mention the
> result yesterday of spending more time scrutinizing California Gull bills
> and legs than I ever care to do again. To my surprise, in a flock which
> contained a minimum of 600 adult CAGUs, I was able to find one adult with
> pink legs. Granted, they were a chalky, washed-out, fleshy-pink, but they
> were, nonetheless, essentially 'pink'. In addition, I found one adult with
> diminished black on the bill and a smudge of red anterior to the black.
> Strangely, this 'extralimital' red wasn't present on the other side of the
> bill. I can only conclude from this informal survey that it wouldn't be
> impossible for one bird to exhibit both of these rare features. However, I
> think it still stretches credulity to suggest an individual as decidely
> rare as this would then be the first of its kind to make its way to
> Norway.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Trondheim Gull
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 28 Nov 2004 9:52am
> On the other hand if it remains as it is there seems to be no
> barrier left not to accept that the Trondheim gull is in fact a California
> Gull!
Except for the very odd structure. After others mentioned the hand/
arm ratio I started looking at that locally. Cals, even the big ones,
really are long-handed and comparatively short-armed. This
difference from the gull in question is radical enough where a
records committee could likely quantify it.
for example see and compare:
http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/CAGUwing1.jpg
The primary projection beyond the tail in the February photos
is also extremely short for a Cal with full grown primaries, as
they should be at that time. Likely a structural difference
related to the above.
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Trondheim Gull
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 28 Nov 2004 10:44am
HI:
This reminds me of the Beach Boys song: "I wish they all could be
California Gulls". On a serious note has anybody thought of trying to get
a DNA sample of the gull in question?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Trondheim Gull
From: Frode Falkenberg <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
Date: 28 Nov 2004 11:41am
There have been attempts to catch it, but with bad success so far. If it
gets caught blood samples will be taken. It will also be ringed and
color-ringed.
Frode Falkenberg
At 09:48 28.11.2004 -0800, Ian Paulsen wrote:
> This reminds me of the Beach Boys song: "I wish they all could be
>California Gulls". On a serious note has anybody thought of trying to get
>a DNA sample of the gull in question?
Department of Biology, UiB
Allégaten 41, 5007 Bergen, Norway
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/
Cell/SMS: +4793440647
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Canada Goose chin strap/line info
From: Glenn A dEntremont <gdentremont(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 28 Nov 2004 5:44pm
For what it's worth, I looked at a group of local Canada Geese closely
enough to determine if any sported a chin line.
The birds were not of any particular race; the differences in size were
within maybe 5% of each other, no small forms.
Out of 78 geese seen well enough to see the chin, 8 had complete lines
and 5 had black "v's" into the white. This is 10.3% and 6.4%
respectively. The black lines were mostly solid in the middle, but had
white feathering in the black especially along the borders. One had
white mottling throughout.
There were also a great variety of blackish markings in the white cheeks
with several showing a fine series of blackish lines. From a distance
the patch looked dirty, smudgy.
Yesterday, there was a reference to geese in Concord, MA with a photo URL
(http://mrines.com/Birds/Smallgoose.htm). Looking at them, there was one
which had a complete black chin with the black extending upward and
bordering the white patch. It seemed the white was confined on the side
borders as well with some black inside the white. This looked very
similar (including the brown of the chest coming up to the sock) to a
bird I described on MASSBIRD last week from Waltham. The distance is not
that great between the two spots and wonder if it is the same individual.
********************************************************************
From 11/21/04:
. All the prior discussions regarding the black chin line on Canada
Geese or Canada type geese had me looking under the chins of all the
geese present. I did not locate a goose small enough to qualify as the
candidate, but did notice black lines under about 5% of the geese, black
incursions ("V"s) into the white, but not complete in another 5% and one
individual which had a completely black chin which came up onto the lower
section of the white cheek limiting the amount of white. It also
appeared to have some black feathers in the white and the whole patch
appeared narrower than the surrounding geese.
*********************************************************************
Glenn
Glenn d'Entremont
gdentremont(AT)juno.com
Stoughton, MA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Canada Goose chin strap/line info
From: sales(AT)BIRDINGWORLD.CO.UK
Date: 29 Nov 2004 2:29am
Hi Glenn
It would be interesting to ascertain how closely your numbers/percentages
parallel the age and moult strategy of the flock. It has been said that
black chin lines (more often) occur in juveniles (and mottled black chin
lines also appear in moulting adults). To ascertain the relevance of the
mark, correctly ageing each bird showing it and determining the extent of
that bird's (post-juvenile) moult may help with unravelling the mystery.
Also, I'm assuming the flock consisted of wild birds. Feral flocks have a
disturbing tendancy to have genes from other donor races...
As an aside, might local poopulation 'inbreeding' throw up pigmentation
anomalies?
cheers
Richard
______________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn A dEntremont" <gdentremont(AT)JUNO.COM>
To: <>
Sent: 29 November 2004 00:42
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Canada Goose chin strap/line info
> For what it's worth, I looked at a group of local Canada Geese closely
> enough to determine if any sported a chin line.
>
> The birds were not of any particular race; the differences in size were
> within maybe 5% of each other, no small forms.
>
> Out of 78 geese seen well enough to see the chin, 8 had complete lines
> and 5 had black "v's" into the white. This is 10.3% and 6.4%
> respectively. The black lines were mostly solid in the middle, but had
> white feathering in the black especially along the borders. One had
> white mottling throughout.
>
> There were also a great variety of blackish markings in the white cheeks
> with several showing a fine series of blackish lines. From a distance
> the patch looked dirty, smudgy.
>
> Yesterday, there was a reference to geese in Concord, MA with a photo URL
> (http://mrines.com/Birds/Smallgoose.htm). Looking at them, there was one
> which had a complete black chin with the black extending upward and
> bordering the white patch. It seemed the white was confined on the side
> borders as well with some black inside the white. This looked very
> similar (including the brown of the chest coming up to the sock) to a
> bird I described on MASSBIRD last week from Waltham. The distance is not
> that great between the two spots and wonder if it is the same individual.
>
>
> ********************************************************************
> From 11/21/04:
>
> . All the prior discussions regarding the black chin line on Canada
> Geese or Canada type geese had me looking under the chins of all the
> geese present. I did not locate a goose small enough to qualify as the
> candidate, but did notice black lines under about 5% of the geese, black
> incursions ("V"s) into the white, but not complete in another 5% and one
> individual which had a completely black chin which came up onto the lower
> section of the white cheek limiting the amount of white. It also
> appeared to have some black feathers in the white and the whole patch
> appeared narrower than the surrounding geese.
> *********************************************************************
>
> Glenn
>
> Glenn d'Entremont
> gdentremont(AT)juno.com
> Stoughton, MA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: odd plumages and vagrancy
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 29 Nov 2004 10:10am
Several people have mentioned that the fact that
the apparent cacchinans x argentatus in Trondheim
was at best an atypical California Gull, and that this
should be a point in favor of it being something other
than Larus california.
I think enough structural inconsistencies have been
mentioned to steer my opinion of the birds ID towards
hybrid rather than CAGU, BUT I wanted to challenge the
notion that atypical birds are less likely to be of a particular
species IF a vagrant than typical birds. This assumes that
vagrancy and appearance are genetically unrelated which
may not be the case - meaning the genetics may have
gone awry at a level that would effect BOTH simultaneously.
So it may actually be more likely for a vagrant to be odd looking
than it would be for it to be a typical individual.
Of course to test this there would have to be data independent
of appearance - so collecting DNA samples would really be the
only way to resolve the question.
Also I realize there are many reasons other than genetics for a
bird to end up out of range so the above would apply to only a
small percentage of birds. However many of the factors that would
cause a bird to "vagrate" could also put extreme stress on it. Another
mechanism to produce an odd appearance.
I am just trying to play devil's advocate here and challenge what seem
to be some assumptions in this thread more than anything else.
Best to all
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Tundra and Trumpeter Swans
From: Kent Nickell <mountainpath(AT)gmail.com>
Date: 29 Nov 2004 10:59am
Hello all, I recently photographed a swan in Iowa that gave me some id
problems. I thought the bill shape and lore extension were somewhat
intermediate and placed some reliance on the feather line between the
bill and the face. There is a nice discussion of this in Sibley's but
I don't see it discussed very often when there is an id problem with
these 2 species. I was wondering how useful some of you may find this
as a fieldmark. Have some photos at
http://www.greenbackedheron.com/id.cfm?setid=1226 Thanks,
Kent Nickell
Waterloo, Iowa
mountainpath(AT)gmail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Tundra and Trumpeter Swans
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 29 Nov 2004 11:28am
Greetings
The forward edge of the facial feathering is somewhat ragged; not sure what that
means. The bill profile is gentle for a Trump and the black around the eye is
narrow for a Trump. The facial feathering, scraggily as it is, is more Tundra
like. I just spent a fair bit of time studying both of these species in NW WA
yesterday.I'd say this bird is a Tundra.... though as always, I wouldn't bet the
house on it.
Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Tundra and Trumpeter Swans
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 29 Nov 2004 11:36am
I have found that Kevin McGowan's synthesis of some of the classic
field marks is consistent and indicates this bird as a .... I'll let
you all apply his criteria.
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/SwanID.htm
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Nickell" <mountainpath(AT)gmail.com>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:59 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tundra and Trumpeter Swans
> Hello all, I recently photographed a swan in Iowa that gave me some
id
> problems. I thought the bill shape and lore extension were somewhat
> intermediate and placed some reliance on the feather line between
the
> bill and the face. There is a nice discussion of this in Sibley's
but
> I don't see it discussed very often when there is an id problem with
> these 2 species. I was wondering how useful some of you may find
this
> as a fieldmark. Have some photos at
> http://www.greenbackedheron.com/id.cfm?setid=1226 Thanks,
>
> Kent Nickell
> Waterloo, Iowa
> mountainpath(AT)gmail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Tundra and Trumpeter Swans
From: Bruce Deuel <BDEUEL(AT)DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 29 Nov 2004 12:40pm
I read Kevin's synthesis, and it's pretty good, but a couple of points
need to be mentioned, just to keep the record straight. First, there
are actually records of Trumpeters with pale spots in the lores area of
the bill. I believe these may be usually off white, and they are
EXTREMELY rare, but they do occur. Secondly, I would respectfully
suggest that MANY Tundra Swans show a reddish line along the tomium, so
this is not a very reliable character.
Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
California Department of Fish and Game
Redding, California
>>> John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU> 11/29/2004 10:35:46 AM >>>
I have found that Kevin McGowan's synthesis of some of the classic
field marks is consistent and indicates this bird as a .... I'll let
you all apply his criteria.
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/SwanID.htm
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Nickell" <mountainpath(AT)gmail.com>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:59 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tundra and Trumpeter Swans
> Hello all, I recently photographed a swan in Iowa that gave me some
id
> problems. I thought the bill shape and lore extension were somewhat
> intermediate and placed some reliance on the feather line between
the
> bill and the face. There is a nice discussion of this in Sibley's
but
> I don't see it discussed very often when there is an id problem with
> these 2 species. I was wondering how useful some of you may find
this
> as a fieldmark. Have some photos at
> http://www.greenbackedheron.com/id.cfm?setid=1226 Thanks,
>
> Kent Nickell
> Waterloo, Iowa
> mountainpath(AT)gmail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Tundra and Trumpeter Swans
From: Steve Sosensky <Steve(AT)SOSENSKY.COM>
Date: 29 Nov 2004 1:13pm
The field mark I have not seen mentioned is the position of the nostril. I
have been told that on Trumpeter, the nostril is about halfway between the
tip of the bill and the eye, and on Tundra, it is halfway between the tip
of the bill and the gape. This, along with the rest of Kevin McGowan's
analysis, would make Kent's swan a Tundra, and is consistent with all the
photos on Kevin's page.
At 11:59 AM 2004-11-29 -0600, Kent Nickell wrote:
>Hello all, I recently photographed a swan in Iowa that gave me some id
>problems. I thought the bill shape and lore extension were somewhat
>intermediate and placed some reliance on the feather line between the
>bill and the face. There is a nice discussion of this in Sibley's but
>I don't see it discussed very often when there is an id problem with
>these 2 species. I was wondering how useful some of you may find this
>as a fieldmark. Have some photos at
>http://www.greenbackedheron.com/id.cfm?setid=1226 Thanks,
>
Good birding,
Steve Sosensky, SoCA Bird Guides www.sosensky.com/guides/
<mailto:steve(AT)sosensky.com> for general use
<mailto:mobile(AT)sosensky.com> rare birds and emergencies only
Toluca Lake, CA 91602 818-508-4946 34.15645 N, 118.36715 W
www.SoCalAudubon.org/socal/ www.SanFernandoValleyAudubon.org/sfvas/
SoCal FRS: use channel 11 code 22
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: odd plumages and vagrancy
From: sales(AT)BIRDINGWORLD.CO.UK
Date: 29 Nov 2004 3:47pm
Hi
I would like to echo Matt's point, and maybe go even further ...
by suggesting that some (many?) vagrant birds could be vagrants precisely
because they are abnormal in some way.
They may be genetically corrupt. Or they may just have reversed polarity in
the 'brain magnets', heavy parasite loads, or dire illness. They may be
suffering physical or mental trauma which may affect moult or plumage: they
simply may not know what they are 'supposed' to look like!
A vagrant bird is an oddity by definition!
Somebody once told me that some collected US state rarities showed, upon
dissection, physical abnormalities or illnesses. I wish I could remember who
that was, because I remember being impressed by it at the time...
cheers
Richard
sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
_________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Sharp" <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: 29 November 2004 17:10
Subject: [BIRDWG01] odd plumages and vagrancy
Several people have mentioned that the fact that
the apparent cacchinans x argentatus in Trondheim
was at best an atypical California Gull, and that this
should be a point in favor of it being something other
than Larus california.
I think enough structural inconsistencies have been
mentioned to steer my opinion of the birds ID towards
hybrid rather than CAGU, BUT I wanted to challenge the
notion that atypical birds are less likely to be of a particular
species IF a vagrant than typical birds. This assumes that
vagrancy and appearance are genetically unrelated which
may not be the case - meaning the genetics may have
gone awry at a level that would effect BOTH simultaneously.
So it may actually be more likely for a vagrant to be odd looking
than it would be for it to be a typical individual.
Of course to test this there would have to be data independent
of appearance - so collecting DNA samples would really be the
only way to resolve the question.
Also I realize there are many reasons other than genetics for a
bird to end up out of range so the above would apply to only a
small percentage of birds. However many of the factors that would
cause a bird to "vagrate" could also put extreme stress on it. Another
mechanism to produce an odd appearance.
I am just trying to play devil's advocate here and challenge what seem
to be some assumptions in this thread more than anything else.
Best to all
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: odd plumages and vagrancy
From: "Michael O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml(AT)EIRCOM.NET>
Date: 29 Nov 2004 4:55pm
Hi,
I know its rather slightly off the point of this thread but yesterday I finally
got to see the famous footage of the feral pigeon which was caught navigating by
man-made road infrastrucure. The bird was filmed from a helicopter as it
followed a motorway, even going around a round-about and exiting just as a car
would. It was indeed fascinating, and whimsical at the same time. The
assumption, as I understand it was that the bird was using visual cues to find
its way home.
One has to wonder about the impact of human interference in this experiment.
Perhaps (being as it was a captive bred bird) it was imprinted on those tiny
human commuters down below. Perhaps it saw them as fellow travellers and was
drawn to follow their mode of navigation. Did the thought occur to anyone that
the bird may have been transported by car at one point in its life along that
very route and may have been remembering geo-magnetic patterns, polarised light
patterns, or simply the road layout as presented to it by its human chauffeur?
Does it really matter at the end of the day....afterall it was not a wild bird!
I guess my point is, hard cases make bad law! Perhaps we need to concentrate on
grasping the laws that govern the movements of 'normal' birds before we try to
understand what makes the 'odd-balls' tick!
Regards
Mike
sales(AT)BIRDINGWORLD.CO.UK wrote:
<
< Hi
<
< I would like to echo Matt's point, and maybe go even further ...
< by suggesting that some (many?) vagrant birds could be vagrants precisely
< because they are abnormal in some way.
<
< They may be genetically corrupt. Or they may just have reversed polarity in
< the 'brain magnets', heavy parasite loads, or dire illness. They may be
< suffering physical or mental trauma which may affect moult or plumage: they
< simply may not know what they are 'supposed' to look like!
<
< A vagrant bird is an oddity by definition!
<
< Somebody once told me that some collected US state rarities showed, upon
< dissection, physical abnormalities or illnesses. I wish I could remember who
< that was, because I remember being impressed by it at the time...
<
< cheers
< Richard
<
< sales(AT)birdingworld.co.uk
< _________________________________________
<
< ----- Original Message -----
< From: "Matt Sharp" <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
< To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
< Sent: 29 November 2004 17:10
< Subject: [BIRDWG01] odd plumages and vagrancy
<
<
< Several people have mentioned that the fact that
< the apparent cacchinans x argentatus in Trondheim
< was at best an atypical California Gull, and that this
< should be a point in favor of it being something other
< than Larus california.
<
< I think enough structural inconsistencies have been
< mentioned to steer my opinion of the birds ID towards
< hybrid rather than CAGU, BUT I wanted to challenge the
< notion that atypical birds are less likely to be of a particular
< species IF a vagrant than typical birds. This assumes that
< vagrancy and appearance are genetically unrelated which
< may not be the case - meaning the genetics may have
< gone awry at a level that would effect BOTH simultaneously.
<
< So it may actually be more likely for a vagrant to be odd looking
< than it would be for it to be a typical individual.
<
< Of course to test this there would have to be data independent
< of appearance - so collecting DNA samples would really be the
< only way to resolve the question.
<
< Also I realize there are many reasons other than genetics for a
< bird to end up out of range so the above would apply to only a
< small percentage of birds. However many of the factors that would
< cause a bird to "vagrate" could also put extreme stress on it. Another
< mechanism to produce an odd appearance.
<
< I am just trying to play devil's advocate here and challenge what seem
< to be some assumptions in this thread more than anything else.
<
< Best to all
< Matt
<
<
< Matt Sharp
< Collection Manager
< VIREO/ANS
< 1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
< Philadelphia PA 19103
< www.acnatsci.org/vireo
< (tel.) 215-299-1069
< (fax) 215-299-1182
<
_________________________________________________________________
Sign up for eircom broadband now and get a free two month trial.*
Phone 1850 73 00 73 or visit http://home.eircom.net/broadbandoffer
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: L. Mattamuskeet, NC Cackling Geese
From: ricky <rdnc(AT)earthlink.net>
Date: 29 Nov 2004 6:00pm
Hi folks,
This past Sat., Nov. 27, five Cackling Geese were located and photographed in
the L. Landing area on the eastern end of the lake. The birds flew in to an
impoundment in the morning, remained at least until late afternoon, but were not
located the following day. Digital photos through a scope were obtained. We
were expecting Richardson's, but these birds seemed way small and dark breasted,
more in line with "minima". We hope that you folks with more experience with
"minima" and variability with "hutchinsii" can respond with your thoughts.
Either way, very interesting birds for NC and the east. The photos can be viewed
at www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/cacg_dcarter.html
Thanks for taking a look. Later, Ricky
Ricky Davis
North American Birds - Southern Atlantic Region
608 Smallwood Drive
Rocky Mount, NC 27804
rdnc(AT)earthlink.net
RJDNC(AT)aol.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Odd Plumages and Vagrants
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 29 Nov 2004 9:05pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings All
Perhaps Peter Pyle or one of the PRBO people can help. I could swear that I
read a paper that mentioned an increase in tumors and other obvious deformities
in vagrants banded at Pt Reyes. This was some time ago....
Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: L. Mattamuskeet, NC Cackling Geese
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 29 Nov 2004 9:09pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings
I'd say these two birds are rather classic for minima. The photo quality is
too poor to see the purplish breast sheen that species often (but perhaps only
about 50%) shows... But if I saw these two in WA, I'd call 'em minima in a
heartbeat, and they seem considerably darker than anything on the hutchinsi
website.
Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
Everett WA
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: albatross...but which species?
From: Tony Pym <tony_pym(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 30 Nov 2004 7:02am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi everyone
I would appreciate any comments on the i.d. of the following albatross:
=20
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/tonypym/WhichAlbatross.html
This bird was photographed three weeks ago whilst I sailed the Humboldt =
Current. About eight birders saw the bird. I called what I thought it =
was at the time but it became an interesting debate later! In the field =
the bill was seen as black (though one observer later thought the =
culminicorn did show 'slight' lightness). The photos do appear to show a =
pale yellow ridge developing, though the photographer commented this may =
be due to light(?)
Thanks in advance
Tony Pym
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: albatross...but which species?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 30 Nov 2004 8:44am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi Tony
I would go for a young Buller's Albatross on this one. The structure
seems right (bill pretty thin), some Salvin's can appear to have a blackish
bill (noticed this a few weeks ago) but I think this is rare and in such a
close view the bill would not look this black. In Salvin's a blackish bill
is partly an effect of lighting, partly greater variation than has been
described in the books. The structure does not look good for young
Black-browed, and also note the developing white crescent below the eye.
Finally, Grey-headed is not expected farther north in the Humboldt Current,
at least not in spring, and it would have a darker head and different
distribution of light and dark on the cheek.
Cheers
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, CA
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
_____
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tony Pym
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:51 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] albatross...but which species?
Hi everyone
I would appreciate any comments on the i.d. of the following albatross:
<http://hometown.aol.co.uk/tonypym/WhichAlbatross.html>
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/tonypym/WhichAlbatross.html
This bird was photographed three weeks ago whilst I sailed the Humboldt
Current. About eight birders saw the bird. I called what I thought it was at
the time but it became an interesting debate later! In the field the bill
was seen as black (though one observer later thought the culminicorn did
show 'slight' lightness). The photos do appear to show a pale yellow ridge
developing, though the photographer commented this may be due to light(?)
Thanks in advance
Tony Pym
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: L. Mattamuskeet, NC Cackling Geese
From: Bruce Deuel <BDEUEL(AT)DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 30 Nov 2004 10:51am
Hi all,
I would call these birds minima in a second here in California.
Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Redding CA
Cal DFG
>>> ricky <rdnc(AT)EARTHLINK.NET> 11/29/2004 4:50:32 PM >>>
Hi folks,
This past Sat., Nov. 27, five Cackling Geese were located and
photographed in the L. Landing area on the eastern end of the lake. The
birds flew in to an impoundment in the morning, remained at least until
late afternoon, but were not located the following day. Digital photos
through a scope were obtained. We were expecting Richardson's, but these
birds seemed way small and dark breasted, more in line with "minima". We
hope that you folks with more experience with "minima" and variability
with "hutchinsii" can respond with your thoughts. Either way, very
interesting birds for NC and the east. The photos can be viewed at
www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/cacg_dcarter.html
Thanks for taking a look. Later, Ricky
Ricky Davis
North American Birds - Southern Atlantic Region
608 Smallwood Drive
Rocky Mount, NC 27804
rdnc(AT)earthlink.net
RJDNC(AT)aol.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: odd plumages and vagrancy
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 30 Nov 2004 11:03am
How does that relate to human vagrants boys? It is all very interesting and
may I suggest you two start a sectarian movement!
Norman
Richard wrote:> I would like to echo Matt's point, and maybe go even further
...
> by suggesting that some (many?) vagrant birds could be vagrants precisely
> because they are abnormal in some way.
>
> They may be genetically corrupt. Or they may just have reversed polarity
> in
> the 'brain magnets', heavy parasite loads, or dire illness. They may be
> suffering physical or mental trauma which may affect moult or plumage:
> they
> simply may not know what they are 'supposed' to look like!
>
> A vagrant bird is an oddity by definition!
>
> Somebody once told me that some collected US state rarities showed, upon
> dissection, physical abnormalities or illnesses. I wish I could remember
> who
> that was, because I remember being impressed by it at the time...
Matt Sharp wrote>> Several people have mentioned that the fact that
> the apparent cacchinans x argentatus in Trondheim
> was at best an atypical California Gull, and that this
> should be a point in favor of it being something other
> than Larus california.
>
> I think enough structural inconsistencies have been
> mentioned to steer my opinion of the birds ID towards
> hybrid rather than CAGU, BUT I wanted to challenge the
> notion that atypical birds are less likely to be of a particular
> species IF a vagrant than typical birds. This assumes that
> vagrancy and appearance are genetically unrelated which
> may not be the case - meaning the genetics may have
> gone awry at a level that would effect BOTH simultaneously.
>
> So it may actually be more likely for a vagrant to be odd looking
> than it would be for it to be a typical individual.
>
> Of course to test this there would have to be data independent
> of appearance - so collecting DNA samples would really be the
> only way to resolve the question.
>
> Also I realize there are many reasons other than genetics for a
> bird to end up out of range so the above would apply to only a
> small percentage of birds. However many of the factors that would
> cause a bird to "vagrate" could also put extreme stress on it. Another
> mechanism to produce an odd appearance.
>
> I am just trying to play devil's advocate here and challenge what seem
> to be some assumptions in this thread more than anything else.
>
> Best to all
> Matt
>
>
> Matt Sharp
> Collection Manager
> VIREO/ANS
> 1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
> Philadelphia PA 19103
> www.acnatsci.org/vireo
> (tel.) 215-299-1069
> (fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: L. Mattamuskeet, NC Cackling Geese
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 30 Nov 2004 12:21pm
We asked goose biologist Ken Abraham of the Ontario Ministry of Natural
Resources to comment on the Cackling Geese in North Carolina. Ken is the
leading authority in Ontario on Canada and Cackling Geese. He said, "One
has to take into account the artificial darkening in the photos from the
scoping, but the comparison of the breast and flanks of the large-bodied
Canada Goose in the one picture, which can at least be seen to be light in
contrast to the rest of its plumage, convinces me that there is little
contrast in those parts of the smaller Cackling Geese in these pictures.
So, these do appear as dark as "minima" and I've never seen any
Richardson's that dark."
Jean Iron and Ron Pittaway
Toronto and Minden ON
jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca
At 07:50 PM 11/29/2004 -0500, ricky wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>This past Sat., Nov. 27, five Cackling Geese were located and photographed
>in the L. Landing area on the eastern end of the lake. The birds flew in
>to an impoundment in the morning, remained at least until late afternoon,
>but were not located the following day. Digital photos through a scope
>were obtained. We were expecting Richardson's, but these birds seemed way
>small and dark breasted, more in line with "minima". We hope that you
>folks with more experience with "minima" and variability with "hutchinsii"
>can respond with your thoughts. Either way, very interesting birds for NC
>and the east. The photos can be viewed at
>www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/cacg_dcarter.html
>
>Thanks for taking a look. Later, Ricky
>
>Ricky Davis
>North American Birds - Southern Atlantic Region
>608 Smallwood Drive
>Rocky Mount, NC 27804
>rdnc(AT)earthlink.net
>RJDNC(AT)aol.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: "new" Gull book
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 30 Nov 2004 3:53pm
HI:
I just picked up a copy of the "revised" Gulls of North America, Europe
and Asia by Olsen and Larsson. He has done some interesting things with
gull taxonomy:
1) Yellow-legged and Caspian Gulls are split
2) Heuglin's Gull is split from Lesser Black-backed Gull
3) Vega and American Herring Gulls are split from Herring Gull
4) Mew Gull is split from Common Gull
Are these standard splits in the works or has he jumped the gun on the
splits?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Odd Plumages and Vagrants
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle(AT)BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: 30 Nov 2004 6:40pm
Yes, I looked at data from the Farallon Islands and found that vagrants
(mostly warblers from eastern North America) had a (very) slightly higher
level of leucisism, deformities, and other anomalies than had western North
American migrants but the comparison was not significant and there were
other problems and potentially false assumptions (e.g., that the western
migrants were not also vagrants from the eastern portions of their ranges).
More interesting was a correlation between missing feathers and arrivals to
the Farallones among western migrants (but not among vagrants): in the
spring we saw more birds with feathers missing from the left sides of the
tail and wing whereas in fall we found more feathers missing from the right
sides.
One theory attempts to explain misorientation of vagrants in terms of body
asymmetry, perhaps the result of pesticide loads. Dr Michael Fry at
University of California at Davis was interested in testing this among
Farallon vagrants, in particular Palm Warblers as I recall.
Peter Pyle
At 11:05 PM 11/29/04 -0500, SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM wrote:
>Greetings All
>
>Perhaps Peter Pyle or one of the PRBO people can help. I could swear that
>I read a paper that mentioned an increase in tumors and other obvious
>deformities in vagrants banded at Pt Reyes. This was some time ago....
>
>Cheers
>Steven Mlodinow
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