ID-FRONTIERS for December 1-4, 2004

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: "new" Gull book   MiriamEagl(AT)AOL.COM   Wed, 1 Dec 2004   9:26am   Another Selasphorus Hummingbird   Peter W. Post   Wed, 1 Dec 2004   10:40am   Re: Another Selasphorus Hummingbird   Mike Patterson    Wed, 1 Dec 2004   11:36am   A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs   Phil Jeffrey    Wed, 1 Dec 2004   5:10pm   Re: A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs   GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM   Wed, 1 Dec 2004   5:22pm   Re: A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs   Norman D.van Swelm   Wed, 1 Dec 2004   5:29pm   Re: A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs   Julian Hough    Wed, 1 Dec 2004   5:56pm   Re: A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs   Angus Wilson    Wed, 1 Dec 2004   6:28pm   Re: Another Selasphorus Hummingbird   Rafael Lizarralde    Wed, 1 Dec 2004   7:14pm   RFI on Pine Flycatcher, Empidonax affinis   Martin Reid    Thu, 2 Dec 2004   5:47pm   Torrent Ducks-??   Rafael Lizarralde    Thu, 2 Dec 2004   7:12pm   Re: RFI on Pine Flycatcher, Empidonax affinis   Chris Benesh    Thu, 2 Dec 2004   10:17pm   Pine Flycatcher pics   Martin Reid    Fri, 3 Dec 2004   6:09am   Re: Another Selasphorus hummingbird   Peter W. Post   Fri, 3 Dec 2004   6:37am   Re: Another Selasphorus hummingbird   Allen Chartier    Fri, 3 Dec 2004   7:32am   Re: Another Selasphorus hummingbird   Mike Patterson    Fri, 3 Dec 2004   8:23am   Re: Another Selasphorus hummingbird   Les Chibana    Fri, 3 Dec 2004   2:09pm

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'. This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

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Subject: Re: "new" Gull book
From: MiriamEagl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 1 Dec 2004 9:26am

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Hi, Ian!

In a message dated 11/30/2004 2:53:53 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET writes:

1)  Yellow-legged and Caspian Gulls are split
2) Heuglin's Gull is split from  Lesser Black-backed Gull
3) Vega and American Herring Gulls are split from  Herring Gull
4) Mew Gull is split from Common Gull

Are these  standard splits in the works or has he jumped the gun on  the
splits?

Clements recognizes the first three items as splits (he calls the Vega Gull
"East Siberian"), but he keeps Mew and Common together.

Mary Beth  Stowe
San Diego, CA
MiriamEagl(AT)aol.com
_www.miriameaglemon.com_ (http://www.miriameaglemon.com)

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Subject: Another Selasphorus Hummingbird
From: "Peter W. Post" <pwpost(AT)NYC.RR.COM>
Date: 1 Dec 2004 10:40am

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A Selasphorus Hummingbird has been present in Central Park, New York City
for the past three days. We would be interested in opinions
as to the sex, age and ID of this individual. Thanks.

Photos can be viewed at:

<http://www.calvorn.com/gallery/photo.php?photo=4893>

Peter W. Post
pwpost(AT)nyc.rr.com

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Subject: Re: Another Selasphorus Hummingbird
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 1 Dec 2004 11:36am

You'd think with pictures this nice someone would be able to
give you a definitive answer, but that's probably not going
to happen.

I'll give you my best shot and we'll seen how many people
disagree.

It is a _Selasphorus_ hummingbird.  I think there's too much
red in the tail for a Broad-tailed.  The gizz seems wrong as
well.

The center tail feathers (R1's) appear to be all green this
would make it a female.  If it's a female, the amount of stippling
in throat suggests it's an adult female.  The bill has a nice
uniform sheen which suggests no growth corrigations which would
also point toward an adult.

Of course the $64 question is: Rufous or Allen's?

Without a good tail shot, it's all voodoo, but I think it's a
Rufous.  From what I can see of individual rects in photo 4894,
they appear appropriately broad.  On the purely subjective,
unquantifiable side, Allen's always seem daintier to me, the
bird in these photos has the robust attitude of a Rufous.

Get some spread tail shots and we'll see how far Zen got me...

"Peter W. Post" wrote:
>
> A Selasphorus Hummingbird has been present in Central Park, New York
> City for the past three days. We would be interested in opinions
> as to the sex, age and ID of this individual. Thanks.
>
> Photos can be viewed at:
>
> <http://www.calvorn.com/gallery/photo.php?photo=4893>
>
> Peter W. Post
> pwpost(AT)nyc.rr.com
>

--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com

If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
                                            - Arlo Guthrie


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Subject: A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs
From: Phil Jeffrey <pjeffrey(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 1 Dec 2004 5:10pm

On Nov 26th a Herring-like Gull with yellow legs was found at Jamaica Bay in
New York City.  We'd appreciate anyone who has the time to look at the
photos - we believe it's an atypical adult Herring Gull, but we're looking
for people's feedback on the ID and the frequency of that (sub-)species with
bright yellow  legs, since it's not something that any of us remembers
seeing before.

The pictures are at:  http://www.philjeffrey.net/ylhg.html

Thanks,
Phil Jeffrey
NYC


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Subject: Re: A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 1 Dec 2004 5:22pm

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Hi all:

As I think that I've stated on this forum previously, I have seen  exactly
one full adult smithsonianus Herring Gull with fairly bright yellow legs  (a la
the bird in this new thread). It was a member of a pair in Wildwood Crest,
Cape May Co., NJ.  Except for being the male of the pair and thus somewhat
bigger than the bird next to it, it was identical to its mate.

Sincerely,
Tony Leukering
Brighton,  CO

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Subject: Re: A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 1 Dec 2004 5:29pm

Well Phil this is a perfect American Herring (smithonianus) Gull including
typical ink spots on it's tertials visible on pics 1 and 4 as described by
Lonergan & Mullarney in Dutch Birding. The legs are not yellow but pink
however they are contaminated with some sort of fluid. Very nice pictures!
Norman

Phil Jeffrey wrote:> On Nov 26th a Herring-like Gull with yellow legs was
found at Jamaica Bay in
> New York City.  We'd appreciate anyone who has the time to look at the
> photos - we believe it's an atypical adult Herring Gull, but we're looking
> for people's feedback on the ID and the frequency of that (sub-)species
> with
> bright yellow  legs, since it's not something that any of us remembers
> seeing before.
>
> The pictures are at:  http://www.philjeffrey.net/ylhg.html


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Subject: Re: A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 1 Dec 2004 5:56pm

Seeing adult/sub-ad. smithsonianus in winter with some degree of yellowness
to the legs is not unusual. Several winters ago in Hartford CT, many
observers put in many hours looking for a couple of possible Yellow-legged
Gulls (a f-w and an adult). Subsequent observations and photos of the adult
bird (with bright yellowish legs) were just that..a smith. with yellowish
legs. I have seen others since that have had yellowish legs, albeit paler
than a typical michahellis Yellow-legged gull.

Other features, such as the paleish grey mantle, dark spot on the tertials
and dark spot on both mandibles are features of smithsonianus rather than
European Herring or Yellow-legged gull.

Personally, through observations of the variability of smithsonianus and
problems posed by hybrids, claiming and proving a genuine
Yellow-legged/European Herring Gull here in the north-east/mid-atlantic
states deserves a medal!

Sorry if that sounds negative!

 Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net

www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Jeffrey" <pjeffrey(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:59 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs

> On Nov 26th a Herring-like Gull with yellow legs was found at Jamaica Bay
> in
> New York City.  We'd appreciate anyone who has the time to look at the
> photos - we believe it's an atypical adult Herring Gull, but we're looking
> for people's feedback on the ID and the frequency of that (sub-)species
> with
> bright yellow  legs, since it's not something that any of us remembers
> seeing before.
>
> The pictures are at:  http://www.philjeffrey.net/ylhg.html
>
> Thanks,
> Phil Jeffrey
> NYC


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Subject: Re: A Herring-type Gull with yellow legs
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 1 Dec 2004 6:28pm

As stated by previous commentators, the extensive head and breast
streaking, dark spot on the tertials, mantle color and visible
details of the primaries all seem completely consistent with American
Herring Gull (smithsonianus). Indeed, the bird is structurally very
similar to be adult next to it in the second photo.

It is notable that the yellow hue to the legs seems to be
concentrated below the 'knee' (i.e. on tarsus and feet) becoming a
more typical pale gray above. I have seen several similar birds in
the past few years on the coast of Long Island and once photographed
an adult with much brighter orange/yellow legs in a parking lot at
Jones Beach. Indeed, I've seen photos or heard mention of similar
birds from a number of observers in coastal New York and New Jersey.

My suspicion is that this yellow or orange coloration is related to
diet in some way but don't have any hard evidence for this assertion.
It is certainly useful to photo-document variation of type and as
Phil mentions, develop some sense of the frequency (and seasonality)
within American Herring Gull populations. A year or so ago, the ABA's
BIRDING magazine ran a fascinating article on carotenoids and diet in
determining gull plumage and softpart coloration.

Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City


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Subject: Re: Another Selasphorus Hummingbird
From: Rafael Lizarralde <wartiger(AT)TWCNY.RR.COM>
Date: 1 Dec 2004 7:14pm

I'm not anyone for American hummingbirds (I'm OK at tropical ones
though...), but simply based on he fact that Sibley's says "Very rare
visitor from California, mainly to the Gulf Coast states." for Allen's
Hummingbird, I'd say it's a Rufous. But again, it is really late for it to
still be around so due to the other discussion's point that weird birds turn
up in weird places at weird times, it might be an Allen's.

~Rafael Lizarralde

> You'd think with pictures this nice someone would be able to
> give you a definitive answer, but that's probably not going
> to happen.
>
> I'll give you my best shot and we'll seen how many people
> disagree.
>
> It is a _Selasphorus_ hummingbird.  I think there's too much
> red in the tail for a Broad-tailed.  The gizz seems wrong as
> well.
>
> The center tail feathers (R1's) appear to be all green this
> would make it a female.  If it's a female, the amount of stippling
> in throat suggests it's an adult female.  The bill has a nice
> uniform sheen which suggests no growth corrigations which would
> also point toward an adult.
>
> Of course the $64 question is: Rufous or Allen's?
>
> Without a good tail shot, it's all voodoo, but I think it's a
> Rufous.  From what I can see of individual rects in photo 4894,
> they appear appropriately broad.  On the purely subjective,
> unquantifiable side, Allen's always seem daintier to me, the
> bird in these photos has the robust attitude of a Rufous.
>
> Get some spread tail shots and we'll see how far Zen got me...
>
> "Peter W. Post" wrote:
>>
>> A Selasphorus Hummingbird has been present in Central Park, New York
>> City for the past three days. We would be interested in opinions
>> as to the sex, age and ID of this individual. Thanks.
>>
>> Photos can be viewed at:
>>
>> <http://www.calvorn.com/gallery/photo.php?photo=4893>
>>
>> Peter W. Post
>> pwpost(AT)nyc.rr.com
>>
>
> --
> Mike Patterson
> Astoria, OR
> celata(AT)pacifier.com
>
> If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
>                                             - Arlo Guthrie


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Subject: RFI on Pine Flycatcher, Empidonax affinis
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 2 Dec 2004 5:47pm

Dear all,
A recent spate of Hammond's Flycatchers found wintering in south Texas has
started a discussion about the possibility of Pine Fly occurring here in
the Winter.  Species that occur in the Sierra Madre Oriental as supposedly
resident inhabitants have a track record of turning up in lowland south
Texas, e.g. Gray Silky, Blue Mockingbird, White-throated Robin, Greater
Pewee, Flame-colored Tanager, Elegant Trogon, Dusky-capped Flycatcher,
Slate-throated Redstart, Rufous-capped Warbler, Golden-crownerd Warbler and
Orange-billed and Black-headed Nightingale-Thrushes.  Some seemingly come
from even further away, perhaps the Sierra Madre Occidental, e.g.
Violet-crowned Hummingbird, Aztec Thrush, Rufous-backed Robin, and Stygian
Owl, .  All these species have been found between San Antonio, Corpus
Christi, and the Lower Rio Grande Valley.
So why not Pine Flycatcher?  But, if we speculate for a moment that it
actually occurs there as regularly as some of the above-mentioned species,
how would we know??
The only reference I have that describes Pine Fly in any detail is the
Mexico Guide by Howell and Webb.  Pyle et al's excellent "Identification
Guide to N.A. Passerines" briefly mentions this taxon under Western
Flycatcher, hinting that the authors feel it may turn up in the US.
I cannot find any photos on the Internet.  Does anyone have photos of live
birds, either in the field or in the hand?  Can anyone provide digital
images of specimens (preferably next to Western-types and Hammond's to
compare wing structure and bill structure)? I'd gladly host such images on
my web site.
Can anyone provide any more details (or references to details) on the ID of
this form?  Does anyone have any voice recordings, or know of any that are
available for purchase?
Many thanks,
Martin
PS you can see three of the South Texas wintering empids here:
http://www.martinreid.com/empid4.html
http://www.martinreid.com/empid5.html
http://www.martinreid.com/empid6.html

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


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Subject: Torrent Ducks-??
From: Rafael Lizarralde <wartiger(AT)TWCNY.RR.COM>
Date: 2 Dec 2004 7:12pm

Hello, I know this isn't really a true post, but I've been making a list and
data thing for all the birds I SHOULD see where I go in Venezuela, and I've
gotten all the way to the Torrent Duck (two birds in... :( ). The book says
that the belly on the male is gray-white, yet all the pictures show a black
belly with rufous-brown streaking. Does anyone have any idea what this
means? (Is one a different subspecies, is it breeding/nonbreeding plumage as
opposed to the other plumage, etc.?)

~Rafael Lizarralde

is a newer birder who goes to Venezuela during the summer. He is also a
so-called nerd (or "biogeek", bio as in biology, as named by peer critics)
in 8th grade.


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Subject: Re: RFI on Pine Flycatcher, Empidonax affinis
From: Chris Benesh <cdbenesh(AT)COX.NET>
Date: 2 Dec 2004 10:17pm

Hi Martin et al.,

In answer to Martin's query about online stuff, I decided to throw 
together a web page with a few images of a Pine Flycatcher from Sinaloa 
this past late winter/early spring.  I also included a small sound file 
with the typical contact note of this species.  You can check it out 
at:

http://members.cox.net/fgibenesh/pineflycatcher.html

One can find published call notes and song (Steve NG Howell) on 
Geoffrey Keller's, Bird Songs of Southeastern Arizona and Sonora, 
Mexico CD.

Steve Howell does a very good treatment of this species (and all empids 
for that matter) in his Birds of Mexico and Northern Central America.  
Pine Flycatcher is rather like crossing a Western Flycatcher with a 
Hammond's Flycatcher, yet sounding in call note, more like a Dusky 
Flycatcher.  I have seen fewer than say 40-50 over the years, so my 
impressions are still being formed.  I am usually struck by the 
brightness of the plumage (ala Western), the clear, bright orange 
mandible, and the rather long primary projection (ala Hammond's).  The 
throat seems most often yellowish, though appears whitish on others 
(perhaps related to feather wear).  The bill is typically narrow, 
though it seems to vary a bit among birds I have seen.  This species is 
typically detected by its heavy-sounding "whit" note, much like a 
Dusky, but fuller.  I have yet to really get any sort of response from 
birds using Howell's song recording, though I am usually trying between 
January and April.  Hope this helps a bit.

Chris

----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Benesh
32°09.512N, 110°46.248W
Tucson, Arizona
cdbenesh(AT)cox.net

"Minds are like parachutes.  They only function when they are open."
James Dewar
-----------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject: Pine Flycatcher pics
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 3 Dec 2004 6:09am

Dear all,
With many thanks to Chris Wood, I have built a page of images of Pine
Flycatcher from Colima:
http://www.martinreid.com/pinefly.html
Thanks also to Chris Benesh for providing the pics/audio at his
site.  maybe if one of us comes across this bugger, we'll have at least a
chance of identifying it now....
It would be great to add to this resource a couple of pics of specimens
showing Hammond's, Pine and Western next to each other; can anyone help?
Cheers,
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


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Subject: Re: Another Selasphorus hummingbird
From: "Peter W. Post" <pwpost(AT)NYC.RR.COM>
Date: 3 Dec 2004 6:37am

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Thanks to those who responded to my post of 12/1/04 where I should have
emphasized that the terrific photos of the Central Park Selasphorus
hummingbird were not taken by me but were taken by Carl Vornberger. Cal was
able to get some tail shots yesterday. One of these can be seen at:

<http://www.calvorn.com/gallery/photo.php?photo=3D4897>

There have been several Selasphorus (one of which was apparently an Allen=B9s=
)
and Calliope Hummingbirds in the New York City area in recent years.
Interestingly, all have appeared on the east side of the Hudson River in NY=
C
an adjacent southern Westchester Co., usually within a few hundred yards of
the river itself. All, except for the current bird which appears to be
feeding exclusively on insects, have been in ornamental gardens.

Luckily, we now have several =B3resident=B2 photographers in Central Park who
have managed to photograph several of the rare birds that have shown up in
the past few years. I can=B9t even lift those big lenses!

Peter W. Post
pwpost(AT)nyc.rr.com

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Subject: Re: Another Selasphorus hummingbird
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 3 Dec 2004 7:32am

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Re: Another Selasphorus hummingbirdPeter,

I'm glad that Carl has gotten such a great tail shot of the Central Park =
Selasphorus hummingbird.  I think now there's no doubt that it is a =
Rufous, probably an adult female.  Allen's Hummingbird would never show =
a second rectrix (r2) shaped like this, with both an emargination and a =
notch, creating a clear "nipple-tip".

Allen Chartier
Hummingbird bander
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI  48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet/index.htm
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Subject: Re: Another Selasphorus hummingbird
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 3 Dec 2004 8:23am

Boy howdy, this photographer does good work!

Adult female, look at that R2.

"Peter W. Post" wrote:
>
> Thanks to those who responded to my post of 12/1/04 where I should
> have emphasized that the terrific photos of the Central Park
> Selasphorus hummingbird were not taken by me but were taken by Carl
> Vornberger. Cal was able to get some tail shots yesterday. One of
> these can be seen at:
>
> <http://www.calvorn.com/gallery/photo.php?photo=4897>
>
> There have been several Selasphorus (one of which was apparently an
> Allen’s) and Calliope Hummingbirds in the New York City area in recent
> years. Interestingly, all have appeared on the east side of the Hudson
> River in NYC an adjacent southern Westchester Co., usually within a
> few hundred yards of the river itself. All, except for the current
> bird which appears to be feeding exclusively on insects, have been in
> ornamental gardens.
>
> Luckily, we now have several “resident” photographers in Central Park
> who have managed to photograph several of the rare birds that have
> shown up in the past few years. I can’t even lift those big lenses!
>
> Peter W. Post
> pwpost(AT)nyc.rr.com

--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com

If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
                                            - Arlo Guthrie


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Subject: Re: Another Selasphorus hummingbird
From: Les Chibana <les(AT)BIRDNUTZ.COM>
Date: 3 Dec 2004 2:09pm

And notice how wide R5 looks, too, now that we can see R2   :-)

Les Chibana, Palo Alto CA

On Dec 3, 2004, at 7:22 AM, Mike Patterson wrote:

> Boy howdy, this photographer does good work!
>
> Adult female, look at that R2.
>
> "Peter W. Post" wrote:
>>
>> Thanks to those who responded to my post of 12/1/04 where I should
>> have emphasized that the terrific photos of the Central Park
>> Selasphorus hummingbird were not taken by me but were taken by Carl
>> Vornberger. Cal was able to get some tail shots yesterday. One of
>> these can be seen at:
>>
>> <http://www.calvorn.com/gallery/photo.php?photo=4897>
>>
>> There have been several Selasphorus (one of which was apparently an
>> Allen’s) and Calliope Hummingbirds in the New York City area in recent
>> years. Interestingly, all have appeared on the east side of the Hudson
>> River in NYC an adjacent southern Westchester Co., usually within a
>> few hundred yards of the river itself. All, except for the current
>> bird which appears to be feeding exclusively on insects, have been in
>> ornamental gardens.
>>
>> Luckily, we now have several “resident” photographers in Central Park
>> who have managed to photograph several of the rare birds that have
>> shown up in the past few years. I can’t even lift those big lenses!
>>
>> Peter W. Post
>> pwpost(AT)nyc.rr.com
>
> --
> Mike Patterson
> Astoria, OR
> celata(AT)pacifier.com
>
> If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
>                                             - Arlo Guthrie
>