B-Mail(sm): ID-FRONTIERS for December 19-25, 2004

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Subject: Re: Putative 'Thayer's Gull' on the net
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 19 Dec 2004 12:56am

Hey gull people

   First of all Phil, not picking on you here, your e-mail just happened to
prompt something that has been on my mind for a while. I appreciate your
posts and contributions to this forum. What got to me was the idea that we
all tend to "take a stand" on these troubling identifications, and I include
myself in here as well, but our stands are individual opinions. As such,
each is a data point that is no more useful than is looking at a single
smithsonianus and using that to describe what the species looks like. We
spend a lot of time talking about what we think something is, based on our
personal perceptions and opinions, and sometimes we may describe the basis
for these perceptions and opinions but we don't really quantify them very
clearly. We load up web sites with rare gulls, or potential rare gulls, and
oodles of weird gulls, but we have precious few sites focusing on what
"normal" actually means, and what is "normal" in different parts of the
continent, or maybe even the hemisphere. We even sometimes describe patterns
that we perceive are there, but the data are unclear, unpublished, lacking,
or maybe even maybe erroneous but we take them as givens, or maybe we even
give them a name thinking that this short-cuts to a clearer understanding.
For example, what are "Great Lakes smithsonianus", "Newfoundland
smithsonianus", "typical kumlien's", "West Coast smithsonianus", "Asian
Glaucous-winged Gulls"? And if these entities are not properly described and
quantified, maybe even properly named, do they really help in our
understanding of gull variation? I think that some of the hurdles we face in
trying to get at the "truth" of gull identification is hidden in the
difference between what is opinion/perception and fact, and how committed we
are as a group of birders in being diligent to try and determine what are
facts, or real data points, and what are our own messy opinions (myself
included here, I am as guilty as any on this front).
        I apologize if this post offends you, I really appreciate all the
input on gulls over the years, and I do not mean to offend. What I mean to
do is try to get at the conversation of finding a solution. At this point I
think that gull identification is kind of sitting there and going nowhere
for the most part, or maybe there are eddies of creative thought here and
there, but for the most part we are in the gull ID doldrums as far as the
progress we are making in this forum. I think that the issue is that we
spend too much time talking about the oddities and the rarities and not
enough about the run of the mill common stuff. Gulls are about the easiest
birds to digiscope in the world, and I know that hundreds of you are doing
this, all over this continent and this hemisphere. Again I don't mean to
offend those of you who have been posting photos of common gulls species
over time, but want to encourage a great increase in this. Wouldn't it be
wonderful if we could search for SY California Gull and come up with 100s,
or even 1000s of photos, with dates, locations and other pertinent
information? I think that the photos are out there, and it is just a matter
of trying to organize this in some way to make it accessible, easy to use,
and hopefully standardized (dates, localities, age groups etc.). Any ideas?
Any interest? Is VIREO out there? Any interest in hosting a massive gull
photo archive? The only way we are going to make sense of this is to have
numbers of images, from different locales, and for handy reference for all
and hopefully with photographer comments on the individual picture, which
will help us understand where our opinions come from. I want the opinions to
keep coming, but I want to SEE what you all think is typical, with your
notes on why this is, and how it relates to the place you go gull watching.
    Do read this knowing that it is written by someone who is all talk and
no action. I have thousands of gull images which are sitting on my hard
drive and I have put precious few online due to time constraints. Maybe a
good New Year's resolution is to get some of these online particularly since
the hard work of taking the photos is done, but bear with me, and we shall
all bear with you as you try to fit this in to your real life, but if we can
come up with some way of making these photos searchable, centralized and
useful, wouldn't this really help us to move forward?

Cheers

Al

Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, CA

Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm

> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Phillip Pickering
> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 8:58 PM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Putative 'Thayer's Gull' on the net
>
> > On the Japanese Gull Site
> http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gullidentifi_.htm
> > there is a sequence of some photos of a Thayer's Gull showing this kind
> of
> > barring in the hood
> >          http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/030107/ThGu3w.html
>
>
> I'm not about to take a stand either way on the issue of barring,
> but I would like to point out again that it's not safe to assume
> birds labeled at Thayer's on the internet are correctly ID'd.
> For example unless I'm missing something the primary pattern
> on the above gull appears to be within the normal range for
> vegae Herring, at least suggesting the possiblity that it could
> be an unusually small female of, or hybrid involving that form.
>
> I've gone through the gulls labeled as Thayer's on the (otherwise
> excellent) Japanese gull site before, and I recall that at least
> a few of them struck me as ranging from somewhat questionable
> to dubious.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Phil

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Subject: Re: Gulls: two more beauts from Corpus Christi,
         TX
From: Harry Hussey <hhussey3(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 19 Dec 2004 7:33am

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Hi Martin,
   While I am unable to comment on the possible Slaty-backed Gull, due to lack
of experience with the species and a poor knowledge of subadult plumages, I will
 venture an opinion on the other gull.
  In my opinion, this bird would struggle to attract a second glance over here
among a flock of Lesser Black-backeds. I concede that the tail pattern is almost
 like that of a Yellow-legged Gull, but 1st-w LBBGU is very variable in this
respect, with some birds almost resembling smithsonianus in this respect. In a
Yellow-legged Gull of this age, I would expect to see a slight pale 'window' on
the spread wing on the inner primaries, though less prominent than that shown by
 the various 'Herring Gulls' of the northern group: in this respect, the Texas
bird resembles a typical Lesser Black-backed. Most (though not all?)
Yellow-leggeds would be paler on the head and underparts by September, not to
mention December, and the new 1st-w mantle/scapular feathers should be paler
grey than this, thus contrasting more with the brown-toned coverts.
Structurally, it also looks better for LBBGU than YLGU, with the legs not being
particularly long, and the head and bill shape matched by many g
 raellsii
 here.
  It IS possible that such birds as yours are YLGU, and that I and other Irish
birders are missing them here, but, given the regularity of similar birds here
and the scarcity of 'typical' 1st-w YLGU (I've never seen one in Ireland!), it
surely stands to reason that LBBGU can and does look much like this...indeed, I
have seen more convincing candidates for michahellis here many times that have
still turned out to be LBBGU on closer examination.
                                                   Harry Hussey, Cork, Ireland

Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET> wrote:
Dear all,
Seeing as gulls are lighting up the Listserv just now, here's two very
interesting samples from south Texas:
http://www.martinreid.com/sbgup19.html - I've had a couple of first-cycle
SBGU wannabes before - maybe even had an actual SBGU, but this is the best
one yet.
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp57.html - Oh boy, just when I thought I had
a handle on first-cycle LBBG/YLGU, along comes this bugger.
Looking forward to your comments,
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com

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Subject: Hybrid Ducks in Washington State, USA
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 19 Dec 2004 3:12pm

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
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  Send mail to mime(AT)docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

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HI:
 Has anyone heard of/seen a falcated duck x gadwall hybrid?

--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:54:52 EST
From: SGMlod(AT)aol.com
To: Tweeters(AT)u.washington.edu
Subject: [Tweeters] Hybrid Ducks

Greetings All

Yesterday, despite being Baikal-less, was most interesting. There were two
curious hybrid ducks present at the Kent Ponds, and both were still present
this
morning. One is a clear "Brewster's Duck"-- a Mallard x Gadwall hybrid
(male). The other seemed to defy ID, and had one particularly interesting mark:
a
black and white ring around the base of the neck. That mark is held by only one
duck I know of -- Falcated Duck.

The bird in question has a body much like a Gadwall in size, shape, and
color. From what I could tell, the wing pattern was that of a Gadwall.
Interestingly, in front of the black vent there is a small white smudge. The
head shape is
also robust and Gadwall like. The head and (from just below eye and up) is a
bright rusty that's almost iridescent. Today I was able to note that there was
some uneveness and the center of the crown seemed a different shade-- hard to
pin down the exact difference. At times, the iridescence took on a greenish
look. In front of the eye, the color was buff, and that was the color of the
cheek as well. The lower sides of the neck had some buff intruding into the
iridescent rust.

Anyway, I wondered about a hybrid Falcated Duck x Gadwall; I thought I had
little hopes of finding any such description, photo, etc. I looked through what
I could find of wigeon x Gadwall, etc. and found little that resembled this
bird. However, in a slim volume entitled Hybrid Ducks: A contribution towards
an
inventory by Eric and Barry Gilham (1996-- available via NHBS.COM -- there
are several follow up volumes, all expensive, and despite remarks to the
contrary, all without photos), there is a picture of a hybrid male Falcated Duck
 x
Gadwall. Though not an exact fit, this photographed known hybrid bares (well,
actually bears) many features in common with the Kent Pond bird. Indeed, it
seems that GADW x FADU is the only way to explain the black-and-white neck
rings.
The known hybrid also shows a black vent with a small white smudge in front.
Interestingly, the FADU at Tofino a number of years back assiduously courted
female Gadwall.

What this means for the origin question of the Baikal Teal, I have no idea.

We once had a rash of odd hybrids in Everett: Tufted Duck x ?, Wood Duck x
Mallard, and White-cheeked Pintail x (Gadwall?).  All in the same 2 month
period.

Best Wishes and Good Baikal Hunting

Steven Mlodinow
Everett WA
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Tweeters mailing list
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Subject: Re: native swan ID
From: Rafael Lizarralde <wartiger(AT)TWCNY.RR.COM>
Date: 19 Dec 2004 4:03pm

I am not any sort of advanced birder on any kind of bird (well, maybe
parrots), but I did a quick analysis and concluded that the juvenile is
Tundra Swan. Some of the supporting facts were that the nostril was isolated
in the pink, the bill had three slight bumps, and the shape of the bill.

~Rafael Lizarralde

is a newer birder who goes to Venezuela during the summer. He is also a
so-called nerd (or "biogeek", bio as in biology, as named by peer critics)
in 8th grade. During the rest of the year he lives in Ithaca, New York
(USA).

> Hello all,
>
> I took photos of two swans in Bloomington, Illinois
> today.  One is obviously an unbanded adult
> Trumpeter Swan.  The accompanying juvenile/immature
> would then logically also be a Trumpeter, but I have
> my doubts.
>
> Reasons . . .
>
> 1.  the feathering above the gape extends distally,
> towards the billtip/nostril, creating an obvious
> curved age suposedly not found on Trumpeter.
>
> 2.  the relatively pale base to the bill, especially
> the skin between the eyes and the bill proper
>
> 3.  size.  It's small--hardly larger than the Canada
> Geese present, and noticeably smaller than the adult
> Trumpeter.
>
> 4.  plumage.  It's quite white, notably on the back,
> where I gather Trumpeters should be dark through next
> summer.
>
>
> The "frontal view" of the beak confuses me.  While the
> feathering which comes down onto the beak between the
> eyes appears to be somewhat pointed (though hard to
> tell due to stained feathers and pale billbase), it's
> not nearly as pointed as on the adult Trumpeter (which
> see for comparison shot).
>
> Photos may be viewed here:
>
> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/album?.dir=/426b
>
> Is this a good candidate for Whistling (Tundra) Swan,
> or am I only being optimistic?  I have very little
> quality experience with this taxon, so I'd appreciate
> any advice from those who have a goodly amount more
> than I.  As someone pointed out earlier this season,
> the information available for identifying the native
> North American swans seems quite mediocre, hence my
> plea for help.
>
>
> Thanks for your help!
>
>
> =====
> ========================
> Michael L. P. Retter
> Bloomington-Normal
> McLean Co, Illinois
> mlretter AT yahoo.com
> 309.824.7317
> ========================
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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Subject: Re: RFI:  Cackling vs. Canada Again.
From: Bruce Deuel <bkrdeuel(AT)SNOWCREST.NET>
Date: 19 Dec 2004 7:05pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Re, what to call the collective, we've used "White-cheeked Geese" in =
Wildlife Management work here in California for over 50 years.
Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM=20
  To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
  Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 6:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] RFI: Cackling vs. Canada Again.

  Hi all:

  In this fall's experience in Colorado, dark geese with white chin =
straps (AOU Committee -- see what we have to do with no group name =
available for these things!) that are obviously smaller than Snow Geese =
have all turned out to be Richardson's Cackling Geese.

  I don't want this to seem like a cut-and-dried, easy-as-pie kind of =
thing and suspect that there will be problems with this assessment.  =
But, so far, it has worked in three of three cases for me this fall.

  Any other opinions out there?

  Tony Leukering
  Brighton, CO
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Subject: Re: RFI:  Cackling vs. Canada Again.
From: wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU
Date: 19 Dec 2004 8:03pm

There seems little doubt that Canada and Cackling Geese will remain difficult
to
separate with accuracy even when we sort out the specific details. There is
therefore a real need to establish a collective name for the two (analogous to
Commic Tern', dowitcher sp. and so on). "White-cheeked Geese" is often used in
the literature but does this specify Canada/Cackling only, or include Barnacle
Goose as well?

Angus Wilson
New York City

Quoting Bruce Deuel <bkrdeuel(AT)SNOWCREST.NET>:

> Re, what to call the collective, we've used "White-cheeked Geese" in Wildlife
> Management work here in California for over 50 years.
> Cheers,
> Bruce Deuel
> Red Bluff, CA

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Subject: Molt timing in Ruff
From: Aaron Lang <aaron_lang8(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 4:14am

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On December 17th I observed a male Ruff at a marsh about 80km NE of Lhasa,
Tibet.  While they pass through here in the fall, this is quite a ways north of
their normal wintering range.  The bird was in a transitional plumage and still
showed characteristics of alternate plumage, ie. very bright orange-red legs,
heavily mottled and dark upperparts--about 50% of the scapulars were solidly
blackish.  There was limited black streaking on only the sides of the breast
(most of the under parts were clean white), and the nape, auriculars, and crown
still showed extensive black.  The basal half of the bill was pale orange, the
distal end was black.  The overall appearance was that of a two-tone bird--dark
upper parts light under parts.  Before I could get a photo a tractor came by and
 flushed the bird.

This is the first Ruff that I've seen in winter.  The majority of my limited
experience with this species is a spring vagrant to Alaska.  A July male that I
saw in Alaska a few years ago had already began its molt, and an individual that
 I saw here in Tibet in late October of this year was already in basic plumage. 
 Given those limited experiences I was very surprised to see this bird in a
transitional plumage in mid December.

For those who more frequently encounter this specis in the winter: Is such a
prolonged molt (this late in the year) typical or usual for a Ruff?

Thanks,
Aaron Lang

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Subject: Corpus Christi YLG/LBB
From: Ottavio Janni <coeligena(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 7:04am

hello all,

I sent these comments to Martin Reid this morning, and he asked me to
forward them to the list.

Hello Martin,

I looked with interest at the photographs of the LBB/YLG you posted on
ID-Frontiers. Here in the Naples, Italy area, where michaellis YLG is the
default large gull and LBB occurs in small numbers (usually no more than
several in a day of birding), I would have called your gull a Yellow-legged
Gull, and probably would not have paid too much attention to it. I did see
that an Irish birder on ID-Frontiers felt that the bird was a LBB, and
perhaps I'm overlooking such LBB's as YLG's here, but some of the points in
favor of LBB that he listed actually seem good for YLG to me! The scapular
pattern and color tone to me looks pretty typical of many YLG's I see here,
and some of the flight shots do show that the TX bird has a pale window in
the inner primaries (although somewhat less pronounced than typical YLG in
southern Italy, I think). The tail pattern looks quite good for YLG as well.
  Harry Hussey also writes: "Most (though not all?) Yellow-leggeds would be
paler on the head and underparts by September, not to mention December",
which I would rephrase as "Many (probably most) Yellow-leggeds would be
paler on the head and underparts by September, not to mention December", but
I saw YLG's this weekend that were darker on the head and underparts that
the TX birds, and while such dark birds are definitely a minority at this
time of year, they are by no means unexpected. I don't know what to say
about structure, it seems maybe a bit small billed for typical YLG,
especially the next to last shot, but certainly not outside the range of
variation. Also, on some of the flight shots the TX gull does not seem to
have the narrow, long-winged look of LBB, and seems fine for YLG to me, but
then again this is a very subjective point.

I saw a bird like the TX gull here in Italy I probably wouldn't look at it
closely, dismissing it as a YLG, but looking more closely at the photos of
the TX gull made me notice that the lower (larger) scapulars of the TX bird
seem to be retained juvenile scapulars, which would be very unusual for
Italian YLG, which seem to molt their juvenile scapulars very quickly (many
birds here already have a full set of first-winter scapulars by mid-August).

I though Harry Hussey's final comments were very interesting:

"It IS possible that such birds as yours are YLGU, and that I and other
Irish
birders are missing them here, but, given the regularity of similar birds
here
and the scarcity of 'typical' 1st-w YLGU (I've never seen one in Ireland!),
it
surely stands to reason that LBBGU can and does look much like
this...indeed, I
have seen more convincing candidates for michahellis here many times that
have
still turned out to be LBBGU on closer examination. "

I could say exactly the same thing for Italy, except replacing YLG with LBB,
and vice versa! I realise that my comments probably don't help you much in
identifying the TX bird, I think that except perhaps for the retained
juvenile lower scapulars it is within the range of variation of Italian YLG,
but I really don't know whether a LBB can look like this as well, and
apparently, according to Harry Hussey's comments, they do. I would be very
interested in seeing what other birders think of the ID.

cheers

Ottavio Janni

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Subject: Re: can this loon be identified? - more info
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 8:31am

Dear all,
I'd like to thank those who replied about this bird:
http://www.martinreid.com/loonx.html
I received seven private replies, in addition to the two public responses I
saw on ID-FRONTIERS; I applaud those who went public, as it takes courage
to "hang yourself out there" on such birds.
Of the responses, all but one favored Pacific Loon, all siting the lack of
a white flank patch, plus variously mentioning the apparent suggestion of a
thin chin-strip, and/or the head and bill shape, and or the bill
posture.  Even the sharp observer who still preferred Arctic wondered if
they could ever lack the white flank patch?  Wr know that on a lone
view/pic of a bird sat low in the water, the patch might not be visible -
but these multiple pics seem to clearly show the ABSENCE of such a patch.
Most of the responders are VERY experienced birders, whose opinions I place
great stock in.  I share the majority view that had I found this bird i
would have called it a Pacific and moved on.
This bird was photographed by Paolo Casali, and the bird was found by
Cesare Dell'Acqua and Antonello Turri in the Ticino River, at Somma
Lombardo, near Varese, in northern Italy on 14th November and was still
there till the about the 25th.  Paolo had posted a single pic of it to the
SURFBIRDS European Scarce Birds web section, where I saw it and contacted
Paolo for more pics and permission to post it at my site.  I take full
responsibility for the "ruse" of not being clear where the bird was
located.  Despite our best attempts, we are influenced by the location, and
I felt that this was such an interesting example, that the best way to
share it and learn from it would be deliberately vague about its location;
I apologise to those who feel duped.
Anyway, that said, either the ID of Gavia pacifica VS G. arctica is harder
than I (we?) thought, or this is a (not unexpected) first record of Pacific
Loon for the Western Palearctic.  Obviously, we should default to the
former conclusion, but I would appreciate more input on this bird, and its
implication for Loon ID on both sides of the Atlantic - thanks.
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: RFI:  Cackling vs. Canada Again.
From: Bruce Deuel <BDEUEL(AT)DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 9:49am

Hi Chris and all,
I am tardy at replying because I'm having phone line problems at home, and was
away Christmas Counting all weekend.

In the example shown, the bird is no bigger than, and appears smaller than, a
Ross's Goose.  No white-cheeked goose taxon is smaller than Ross's Goose except
minima.  Case closed.  For those concerned about this bird's breast color, it is
 an immature, which often show lighter breasts than adults.

Regarding the question of size limits of parvipes, the published tables of
measurements I have seen show no overlap in any character between parvipes and
minima.  However, there is overlap among parvipes and the other 3 Cackling Goose
 taxa.  Which is where the problem lies, isn't it.

Cheers,

Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff/Redding
bdeuel(AT)dfg.ca.gov

>>> Chris Benesh <cdbenesh(AT)COX.NET> 12/17/2004 2:47:56 PM >>>
I threw in the RFI just in case anyone was looking for insights in this 
posting.

I have blissfully spent the last 20 plus years giving Canada Geese 
scarcely more than casual notice, but, alas, recent assessment of 
species limits has thrown goose identification into the same category 
of uncertainty as the Solitary Vireo complex.  I have been doing quite 
a bit of reading up on these geese in the last few weeks/months with 
the idea of getting a clearer picture of some of the particular ID 
problems.  Here in Arizona, we are blessed with relatively few Canada 
Geese.  Those that show up are often in small flocks or singles.  The 
small Canada-types that we now might contemplate as Cackling Geese are, 
more often than not, associating with Snow or Ross' geese, or American 
Coots.   Is there anything meaningful to be gleaned from relative size 
in direct comparison with Ross' and Snow geese (realizing that these 
two species are themselves rather variable in size, and that limits in 
most or all subspecies of Canada-like goose are still being worked 
out).  In two recent case studies here in Arizona, we have had smallish 
"cackling" geese photographed with Ross'.  See here for one example:

http://members.cox.net/fgibenesh/cacklinggoose.html 

I guess the question boils down to how small is too small for parvipes 
Canada Goose and can direct comparison with Ross' Goose and Snow Goose 
provide any clues?  I'm looking forward to any insight you can provide 
or thoughts and opinions on the identification of the above example.

Chris

----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Benesh
32�09.512N, 110�46.248W
Tucson, Arizona
cdbenesh(AT)cox.net 

"Minds are like parachutes.  They only function when they are open."
James Dewar
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Subject: Re: can this loon be identified? - more info
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 10:23am

If I'm not mistaken, the subspecies of Arctic Loon in NE Asia is
different to the one (Black-throated Diver) in Europe, so some of the
structural features at least may be less pronounced in that subspecies.

It would good to know if the apparent chin strap is real or not. I
wasn't sore when I looked at the photo and also couldn't see a vent
strap. However, the lack of a while flank patch certainly is a huge mark
in favour of Pacific.

Incidentally, I think this kind of trick post is a good idea, since a
lot of id calls are biased by location - correctly so in general.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 7:40 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] can this loon be identified? - more info

Dear all,
I'd like to thank those who replied about this bird:
http://www.martinreid.com/loonx.html
I received seven private replies, in addition to the two public
responses I
saw on ID-FRONTIERS; I applaud those who went public, as it takes
courage
to "hang yourself out there" on such birds.
Of the responses, all but one favored Pacific Loon, all siting the lack
of
a white flank patch, plus variously mentioning the apparent suggestion
of a
thin chin-strip, and/or the head and bill shape, and or the bill
posture.  Even the sharp observer who still preferred Arctic wondered if
they could ever lack the white flank patch?  Wr know that on a lone
view/pic of a bird sat low in the water, the patch might not be visible
-
but these multiple pics seem to clearly show the ABSENCE of such a
patch.
Most of the responders are VERY experienced birders, whose opinions I
place
great stock in.  I share the majority view that had I found this bird i
would have called it a Pacific and moved on.
This bird was photographed by Paolo Casali, and the bird was found by
Cesare Dell'Acqua and Antonello Turri in the Ticino River, at Somma
Lombardo, near Varese, in northern Italy on 14th November and was still
there till the about the 25th.  Paolo had posted a single pic of it to
the
SURFBIRDS European Scarce Birds web section, where I saw it and
contacted
Paolo for more pics and permission to post it at my site.  I take full
responsibility for the "ruse" of not being clear where the bird was
located.  Despite our best attempts, we are influenced by the location,
and
I felt that this was such an interesting example, that the best way to
share it and learn from it would be deliberately vague about its
location;
I apologise to those who feel duped.
Anyway, that said, either the ID of Gavia pacifica VS G. arctica is
harder
than I (we?) thought, or this is a (not unexpected) first record of
Pacific
Loon for the Western Palearctic.  Obviously, we should default to the
former conclusion, but I would appreciate more input on this bird, and
its
implication for Loon ID on both sides of the Atlantic - thanks.
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Reid's Loon
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 20 Dec 2004 10:28am

Greetings All

I can not see a chinstrap on the loon in question; I am not sure about the vent.
 Seems kind of smudgy at times, clear at others. No clear strap. But I have less
 field experience with this mark, given that it is usually not viewable.

I do think the structure (bill size, shape, head shape) is more Arctic. If it
had white flank patches, I'd be strongly inclined to call it an Arctic. Without
that mark?

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: can this loon be identified? - more info
From: julian hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 10:59am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

I looked at the pic and thought that on first impression that it looked good for
 Pacific, based on head and bill shape and flank pattern.

I had a chance to see Arctic Loon in Nome some years ago (race subvirgatus?) and
 having birded most of my life in the UK and then the US, I was curious to see
how Arctic Loons looked compared to both Pacific and Black-throated Diver from
Europe.

The following is based on adults in breeding plumage. Essentially, the Arctic
Loons in Nome looked as I expected them to, being very similar to Black-throated
 Divers in size, shape and structure. Aside from the obvious white flank patch,
they were larger, had bigger bills, darker napes and a more angular head shape
(steep forehead and flatter crown) than Pacifics.
In flight the white flank patch was obvious.
The only point of difference between Arctic vs Black-throated I noticed in my
limited observation time, was that the Arctic Loons tended to swim with their
bills tilted slightly upward, like a Red-throated. This was contrary to my
belief that that Black-throated Divers are said to swim with their bills
horizontally, a feature used to separate them from distant Red-throats (at least
 that was what I was told growing up!)

I would expect from these observations that if I found a Black-throated/Arctic
Loon in CT, that it would be separable from Pacific on the above structural
characters, as well as the confirming white flank patch.
The Italy bird looks more like a Pacific Loon in "jizz" and coupled with dark
flanks, I would have a hard time trying to claim it as a Arctic/Black-throated.
However, how variable are structural characters between Arctic/Black-throated
vs. Pacific  when comparing adults with juveniles?

Since I assume that Arctic/Black-throateds have a white flank patch,  hen the
bird must be a Pacific, right?
The only problem now is that it's in Italy!

Julian Hough,
CT, USA
"Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM> wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, the subspecies of Arctic Loon in NE Asia is
different to the one (Black-throated Diver) in Europe, so some of the
structural features at least may be less pronounced in that subspecies.

It would good to know if the apparent chin strap is real or not. I
wasn't sore when I looked at the photo and also couldn't see a vent
strap. However, the lack of a while flank patch certainly is a huge mark
in favour of Pacific.

Incidentally, I think this kind of trick post is a good idea, since a
lot of id calls are biased by location - correctly so in general.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 7:40 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] can this loon be identified? - more info

Dear all,
I'd like to thank those who replied about this bird:
http://www.martinreid.com/loonx.html
I received seven private replies, in addition to the two public
responses I
saw on ID-FRONTIERS; I applaud those who went public, as it takes
courage
to "hang yourself out there" on such birds.
Of the responses, all but one favored Pacific Loon, all siting the lack
of
a white flank patch, plus variously mentioning the apparent suggestion
of a
thin chin-strip, and/or the head and bill shape, and or the bill
posture. Even the sharp observer who still preferred Arctic wondered if
they could ever lack the white flank patch? Wr know that on a lone
view/pic of a bird sat low in the water, the patch might not be visible
-
but these multiple pics seem to clearly show the ABSENCE of such a
patch.
Most of the responders are VERY experienced birders, whose opinions I
place
great stock in. I share the majority view that had I found this bird i
would have called it a Pacific and moved on.
This bird was photographed by Paolo Casali, and the bird was found by
Cesare Dell'Acqua and Antonello Turri in the Ticino River, at Somma
Lombardo, near Varese, in northern Italy on 14th November and was still
there till the about the 25th. Paolo had posted a single pic of it to
the
SURFBIRDS European Scarce Birds web section, where I saw it and
contacted
Paolo for more pics and permission to post it at my site. I take full
responsibility for the "ruse" of not being clear where the bird was
located. Despite our best attempts, we are influenced by the location,
and
I felt that this was such an interesting example, that the best way to
share it and learn from it would be deliberately vague about its
location;
I apologise to those who feel duped.
Anyway, that said, either the ID of Gavia pacifica VS G. arctica is
harder
than I (we?) thought, or this is a (not unexpected) first record of
Pacific
Loon for the Western Palearctic. Obviously, we should default to the
former conclusion, but I would appreciate more input on this bird, and
its
implication for Loon ID on both sides of the Atlantic - thanks.
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: can this loon be identified? - more info
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle(AT)BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 12:55pm

In specimens the "flank patch" of viridigularis Arctic Loons is manifest
primarily by the tibial feathers being half white (proximally) vs. entirely
dark in Pacific Loon. It made me wonder if positioning of the legs and feet
could affect the appearance of this patch in the field. Perhaps this is
such a case. The images are not sharp enough to be certain but it looks
like the tibial feathers are partly white. Also, it shows the evenly
fringed and rounded back feathers typical of first-fall individuals.

Peter Pyle

At 09:59 AM 12/20/04 -0800, julian hough wrote:
>I looked at the pic and thought that on first impression that it looked
>good for Pacific, based on head and bill shape and flank pattern.
>
>I had a chance to see Arctic Loon in Nome some years ago (race
>subvirgatus?) and having birded most of my life in the UK and then the US,
>I was curious to see how Arctic Loons looked compared to both Pacific and
>Black-throated Diver from Europe.
>
>The following is based on adults in breeding plumage. Essentially, the
>Arctic Loons in Nome looked as I expected them to, being very similar to
>Black-throated Divers in size, shape and structure. Aside from the obvious
>white flank patch, they were larger, had bigger bills, darker napes and a
>more angular head shape (steep forehead and flatter crown) than Pacifics.
>In flight the white flank patch was obvious.
>The only point of difference between Arctic vs Black-throated I noticed in
>my limited observation time, was that the Arctic Loons tended to swim with
>their bills tilted slightly upward, like a Red-throated. This was contrary
>to my belief that that Black-throated Divers are said to swim with their
>bills horizontally, a feature used to separate them from distant
>Red-throats (at least that was what I was told growing up!)
>
>I would expect from these observations that if I found a
>Black-throated/Arctic Loon in CT, that it would be separable from Pacific
>on the above structural characters, as well as the confirming white flank
>patch.
>The Italy bird looks more like a Pacific Loon in "jizz" and coupled with
>dark flanks, I would have a hard time trying to claim it as a
>Arctic/Black-throated.
>However, how variable are structural characters between
>Arctic/Black-throated vs. Pacific  when comparing adults with juveniles?
>
>Since I assume that Arctic/Black-throateds have a white flank patch,  hen
>the bird must be a Pacific, right?
>The only problem now is that it's in Italy!
>
>Julian Hough,
>CT, USA
>"Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM> wrote:
>If I'm not mistaken, the subspecies of Arctic Loon in NE Asia is
>different to the one (Black-throated Diver) in Europe, so some of the
>structural features at least may be less pronounced in that subspecies.
>
>It would good to know if the apparent chin strap is real or not. I
>wasn't sore when I looked at the photo and also couldn't see a vent
>strap. However, the lack of a while flank patch certainly is a huge mark
>in favour of Pacific.
>
>Incidentally, I think this kind of trick post is a good idea, since a
>lot of id calls are biased by location - correctly so in general.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
>Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 7:40 AM
>To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] can this loon b e identified? - more info
>
>Dear all,
>I'd like to thank those who replied about this bird:
>http://www.martinreid.com/loonx.html
>I received seven private replies, in addition to the two public
>responses I
>saw on ID-FRONTIERS; I applaud those who went public, as it takes
>courage
>to "hang yourself out there" on such birds.
>Of the responses, all but one favored Pacific Loon, all siting the lack
>of
>a white flank patch, plus variously mentioning the apparent suggestion
>of a
>thin chin-strip, and/or the head and bill shape, and or the bill
>posture. Even the sharp observer who still preferred Arctic wondered if
>they could ever lack the white flank patch? Wr know that on a lone
>view/pic of a bird sat low in the water, the patch might not be visible
>-
>but these multiple pics seem to clearly show the ABSENCE of such a
>patch.
>Most of the responders are VERY experienced birders, whose opinions I
>place
>great stock in. I shar e the majority view that had I found this bird i
>would have called it a Pacific and moved on.
>This bird was photographed by Paolo Casali, and the bird was found by
>Cesare Dell'Acqua and Antonello Turri in the Ticino River, at Somma
>Lombardo, near Varese, in northern Italy on 14th November and was still
>there till the about the 25th. Paolo had posted a single pic of it to
>the
>SURFBIRDS European Scarce Birds web section, where I saw it and
>contacted
>Paolo for more pics and permission to post it at my site. I take full
>responsibility for the "ruse" of not being clear where the bird was
>located. Despite our best attempts, we are influenced by the location,
>and
>I felt that this was such an interesting example, that the best way to
>share it and learn from it would be deliberately vague about its
>location;
>I apologise to those who feel duped.
>Anyway, that said, either the ID of Gavia pacifica VS G. arctica is
>harder
>than I (we?) th ought, or this is a (not unexpected) first record of
>Pacific
>Loon for the Western Palearctic. Obviously, we should default to the
>former conclusion, but I would appreciate more input on this bird, and
>its
>implication for Loon ID on both sides of the Atlantic - thanks.
>Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Martin Reid
>San Antonio, Texas
>mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
>http://www.martinreid.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: RFI:  Cackling vs. Canada Again.
From: phertzel(AT)rconnect.com
Date: 20 Dec 2004 1:41pm

It is good to know there is no overlap in size regarding parvipes and minima.
Here in the midwest, the central problem will be separating parvipes and
hutchinsii.  Since both are light-bodied, if there is overlap in physical
size/mass between these two, then I think success with this particular
identification challenge is in great peril.

Culmen length comparisons between hutchinsii and parvipes already are published
as being closer than taverneri and parvipes, in spite of the fact that taverneri
 is supposed to average larger in body size than hutchinsii.  So, with both
hutchinsii and parvipes capable of having blocky head shapes, I would be at a
loss as to what remaining character to point to in order to separate in the
field those individuals in the range of size overlap.

The typical size (length) of parvipes is supposed to be around 36".  Hutchinsii
is given to be 27", which is about the same size as a Snow Goose, or Greater
White-fronted Goose.  This is 75% of the parvipes' 36 inches, and strikes me as
an excessive lower bound for the range in parvipes, but I don't really know.  I
would like to be able to use side-by-side comparisons with Snow Geese and
White-fronts to identify a "for-sure" class of hutchinsii, that is, those that
are equal to or smaller in size than the Snows and White-fronts.  This would
enable practice in the field, but all is lost if parvipes are allowed to
encroach in that range.

Paul Hertzel
Mason City, IA

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Deuel <BDEUEL(AT)DFG.CA.GOV>
Sent: Dec 20, 2004 10:49 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] RFI:  Cackling vs. Canada Again.

Hi Chris and all,
I am tardy at replying because I'm having phone line problems at home, and was
away Christmas Counting all weekend.

In the example shown, the bird is no bigger than, and appears smaller than, a
Ross's Goose.  No white-cheeked goose taxon is smaller than Ross's Goose except
minima.  Case closed.  For those concerned about this bird's breast color, it is
 an immature, which often show lighter breasts than adults.

Regarding the question of size limits of parvipes, the published tables of
measurements I have seen show no overlap in any character between parvipes and
minima.  However, there is overlap among parvipes and the other 3 Cackling Goose
 taxa.  Which is where the problem lies, isn't it.

Cheers,

Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff/Redding
bdeuel(AT)dfg.ca.gov

>>> Chris Benesh <cdbenesh(AT)COX.NET> 12/17/2004 2:47:56 PM >>>
I threw in the RFI just in case anyone was looking for insights in this 
posting.

I have blissfully spent the last 20 plus years giving Canada Geese 
scarcely more than casual notice, but, alas, recent assessment of 
species limits has thrown goose identification into the same category 
of uncertainty as the Solitary Vireo complex.  I have been doing quite 
a bit of reading up on these geese in the last few weeks/months with 
the idea of getting a clearer picture of some of the particular ID 
problems.  Here in Arizona, we are blessed with relatively few Canada 
Geese.  Those that show up are often in small flocks or singles.  The 
small Canada-types that we now might contemplate as Cackling Geese are, 
more often than not, associating with Snow or Ross' geese, or American 
Coots.   Is there anything meaningful to be gleaned from relative size 
in direct comparison with Ross' and Snow geese (realizing that these 
two species are themselves rather variable in size, and that limits in 
most or all subspecies of Canada-like goose are still being worked 
out).  In two recent case studies here in Arizona, we have had smallish 
"cackling" geese photographed with Ross'.  See here for one example:

http://members.cox.net/fgibenesh/cacklinggoose.html 

I guess the question boils down to how small is too small for parvipes 
Canada Goose and can direct comparison with Ross' Goose and Snow Goose 
provide any clues?  I'm looking forward to any insight you can provide 
or thoughts and opinions on the identification of the above example.

Chris

----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Benesh
32�09.512N, 110�46.248W
Tucson, Arizona
cdbenesh(AT)cox.net 

"Minds are like parachutes.  They only function when they are open."
James Dewar
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: RFI:  Cackling vs. Canada Again.
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 20 Dec 2004 2:04pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Hi all:

As parvipes is a common migrant and wintering goose in CO, I have spent a lot
of time studying and photographing it in comparison to the larger forms
moffitti and Golf Course (insert your favorite lawn-type environment, e.g.,
City
Park, here) Goose.  In my experience, hutchinsii has a steeper forehead and
shorter bill than does parvipes (a la Barrow's and Common goldeneyes) and these
are the features that I have been using this fall to ID the latter taxon in CO.
I find that parvipes head and bill shapes are similar to those of larger
geese, just smaller.  These features obviously require fairly good views.

So, the question to the questioners, are these suitable features or not?

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: attitude of bill in Arctic Loon subsp.
From: Jim Barton <redwingatfp1986(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 4:18pm

    Hello.  I'm intrigued by Julian Hough's remark that he observed adult
Arctic Loon >G. arctica subsp.< in Nome ,  Alaska, to hold the bill upwards
in a manner similar to Red-throated Loon >stellata<, by contrast with
Black-throated Diver >G. arctica arctica<.

    I have recorded Arctic twice in Massachusetts, one bird in late fall
from Sandy Neck, Cape Cod, and two together in mid winter from Point
Allerton at the very southern entrance to Boston Harbor.  I assumed on each
occasion that I was looking at >arctica arctica< rather than vagrants from
northwestern Alaska.  But the two birds seen together at Point Allerton both
were holding the bill upwards at a noticeable angle, evident at a
considerable distance, though not at an angle so pronounced as that of
 >stellata<.

    I would be very interested in comments on the reliability of bill
attitude as a means for distinguishing Alaskan >arctica subsp.< from
European >arctica arctica<.

    The Sandy Neck bird held its bill horizontally.

    Yours,

Jim Barton
redwingatfp1986(AT)comcast.net
Cambridge, MA
US Coordinator, Proact
campaigning for birds and their habitats
before it's too late
www.proact-campaigns.net

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: RFI:  Cackling vs. Canada Again.
From: "Michael L. P. Retter" <mlretter(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 6:44pm

> In the example shown, the bird is no bigger than,
> and appears smaller than, a Ross's Goose.  No
> white-cheeked goose taxon is smaller than Ross's
> Goose except minima.  Case closed.

I disagree.  I routinely see Richardson's Geese that
are equal in size to Ross's Geese, and I have seen a
few that appear smaller.

I cannot stress enough how small some B. h. hutchinsii
are.

This one is hardly larger than the pintails it is
swimming with and is much smaller than the
White-fronted Geese behind it:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/detail?.dir=56b4&.dnm=0150.jpg&.src=ph

There is currently a flock of about 500 Richardson's
Geese at a local lake near me, and many are the same
size as Mallards.  In fact, when sleeping on the ice,
they are not so easy to pick out of the Mallard
flocks.

For what it's worth, I did a sketch of what I think of
as a typical B. h. hutchinsii in structure.  It may be
viewed here:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/detail?.dir=ec68&.dnm=79cd.jpg&.src=ph

=====
========================
Michael L. P. Retter
Bloomington-Normal
McLean Co, Illinois
mlretter AT yahoo.com
309.824.7317
========================

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: RFI:  Cackling vs. Canada Again.
From: "J. Harry Krueger" <hkrueger(AT)cableone.net>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 7:51pm

Part of the difficulty (and endless fodder for disagreement) is our
collective tendency to focus on size in a situation where plumage offers
some very helpful clues but few that are always consistent.  Although size
can be a potentially diagnostic point in id differentiation among the
"White-cheeked" goose species (and subspecies), I would agree with Tony
Leukering when he draws attention to both head and bill shape.  I propose
that this is perhaps the most helpful of all id points in considering the
subspecies under discussion.  Not only is this a telling focus point for
sorting hutchinsii form parvipes, but also to be looked for in deciding
whether minima or hutchinsii is the bird we may be looking at. Minima seems
much more rounder headed than hutchinsii, in fact Michael Retter's sketch is
a very good representation of a typical "squared" hutchinsii head and bill.

Harry Krueger
Boise, ID

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael L. P. Retter
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 6:44 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] RFI: Cackling vs. Canada Again.

> In the example shown, the bird is no bigger than, and appears smaller
> than, a Ross's Goose.  No white-cheeked goose taxon is smaller than
> Ross's Goose except minima.  Case closed.

I disagree.  I routinely see Richardson's Geese that are equal in size to
Ross's Geese, and I have seen a few that appear smaller.

I cannot stress enough how small some B. h. hutchinsii are.

This one is hardly larger than the pintails it is swimming with and is much
smaller than the White-fronted Geese behind it:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/detail?.dir=56b4&.dnm=0150.jpg&.src=p
h

There is currently a flock of about 500 Richardson's Geese at a local lake
near me, and many are the same size as Mallards.  In fact, when sleeping on
the ice, they are not so easy to pick out of the Mallard flocks.

For what it's worth, I did a sketch of what I think of as a typical B. h.
hutchinsii in structure.  It may be viewed here:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/detail?.dir=ec68&.dnm=79cd.jpg&.src=p
h

=====
========================
Michael L. P. Retter
Bloomington-Normal
McLean Co, Illinois
mlretter AT yahoo.com
309.824.7317
========================

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Dark Iceland Gull/Thayer's.
From: "James P. Smith" <keenbirder(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 7:52pm

Hi birders,

http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/KumorThayerGull1.html

Here�s a summary of the reasons cited for this bird
being kumlieni;

1) �anemic and uniform in plumage which is not right
(especially the primaries) for Thayer's�.

2) �it also has new first-winter scaps, typical of
Kumlien's at this time of year and not right for
many/most Thayer's at this time of year....classic
(Thayer�s) should be in full juv. plumage�.

3)�the primary projection also looks a little too
short for Thayer's...again a feature noted on some
dark first-winter Kumlien's�.

I guess the term �pure� Kumlieni would depend on which
side of the taxonomic fence you sit. At the moment, I
would tend to side with the opinion that kumlieni is
an Iceland Gull (glaucoides) with variable amounts of
thayeri genes, hence the appearance of some very dark
birds such as this one in New Hampshire.

On the other hand, I�m really not sure how I�d feel
about this bird had I achieved the same images from
Northern California in early December.

I�d be interested to receive more West Coast
perspective on this bird from those willing to offer.
Also of interest, images of a rather similar looking
bird identified as a presumed Thayer�s in Iceland can
be found here;

http://www.hi.is/~yannk/thayer04_2.html

All feedback welcome,

Best,

James P. Smith
Keene, NH.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland Gull/Thayer's.
From: "Michael L. P. Retter" <mlretter(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 8:37pm

Need this bird be one or the other?

Why is it that kumlieni seems to be the only gull
taxon that is allowed such variability in adult
primary pigmentation ("Herring Gulls"
notwithstanding)?  I really wonder if kumlieni is a
hybrid swarm.  It seems to me that kumlieni shows more
inter-taxon variation than Glaucous-winged Western
Gull hybrids.

We see so many intermediates here in Illinois in
winter, I just call them likely kumlieni x thayeri
intergrades and be done with it, but them again, if
kumlieni is an intergrade itself (as I suspect), these
birds would by definition be kumlieni also.

========================
Michael L. P. Retter
Bloomington-Normal
McLean Co, Illinois
mlretter AT yahoo.com
309.824.7317
========================

--- "James P. Smith" <keenbirder(AT)YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Hi birders,
>
> http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/KumorThayerGull1.html
>
> Here�s a summary of the reasons cited for this bird
> being kumlieni;
>
> 1) �anemic and uniform in plumage which is not right
> (especially the primaries) for Thayer's�.
>
> 2) �it also has new first-winter scaps, typical of
> Kumlien's at this time of year and not right for
> many/most Thayer's at this time of year....classic
> (Thayer�s) should be in full juv. plumage�.
>
> 3)�the primary projection also looks a little too
> short for Thayer's...again a feature noted on some
> dark first-winter Kumlien's�.
>
> I guess the term �pure� Kumlieni would depend on
> which
> side of the taxonomic fence you sit. At the moment,
> I
> would tend to side with the opinion that kumlieni is
> an Iceland Gull (glaucoides) with variable amounts
> of
> thayeri genes, hence the appearance of some very
> dark
> birds such as this one in New Hampshire.
>
> On the other hand, I�m really not sure how I�d feel
> about this bird had I achieved the same images from
> Northern California in early December.
>
> I�d be interested to receive more West Coast
> perspective on this bird from those willing to
> offer.
> Also of interest, images of a rather similar looking
> bird identified as a presumed Thayer�s in Iceland
> can
> be found here;
>
> http://www.hi.is/~yannk/thayer04_2.html
>
> All feedback welcome,
>
> Best,
>
> James P. Smith
> Keene, NH.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>

=====
========================
Michael L. P. Retter
Bloomington-Normal
McLean Co, Illinois
mlretter AT yahoo.com
309.824.7317
========================

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Falcated Duck x Gadwall.
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 20 Dec 2004 9:00pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Greetings All

At the following website, there is a photo of a GADW x FADU that closely
resembles the bird in Kent, WA. This was a wild bird photographed in Punjab in
2003. Interestingly, Malcolm Ogilvie tells me that a GADW x FADU was collected
in
India in 1918 as well.

http://www.delhibird.org/species/sp00464.htm

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: RFI:  Cackling vs. Canada Again.
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 20 Dec 2004 9:17pm

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Greetings All

Bob Flores, manager of Columbia NWR and good observer, also mentioned vocal
differences between parvipes and taverneri -- with the latter sounding more
minima-like (though parvipes definitely sounds different from moffitti).

When I videotaped an odd small goose in La Paz, Baja California Sur, several
goose experts used its vocalizations to help ID it as an Aleutian... so I
think we should also maintain an awareness of these bird's calls, even if such
is
nearly impossible to convey in words.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Dark Iceland/Thayers; Thayer's cross-barring
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 20 Dec 2004 9:22pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Greetings All

I agree with Phil Pickering on this. I do believe I've seen Thayer's that
look like this dark bird in WA during winter. Then again, reminiscent of the
recent Italian/Irish conversation on YL/LBBG, maybe I've just been
mis-identifying
dark Kumlein's Gulls.

Also, Bill Tweit (formerly of Chicago, currently of Olympia WA) mentioned
that during his last Chicago trip he noted two adult Thayer's (otherwise
typical,
seen in flight and perched) that showed GWGU like cross barring on chest.
Interestingly, neither of us remember seeing this mark on WA birds. As Alvaro
mentioned earlier, there may be some population to population variation in
these
marks... Or maybe I've not paid enough attention out here.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Putative 'Thayer's Gull' on the net
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd(AT)ABA.ORG>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 10:29pm

Hello, birders.

I've been enjoying the discussion of Thayer's Gull--everything from the
picayune details of horizontal barring on the breast caused by
compression of .jpg images to the cosmic philosophical matters of
variation, species limits, and the bounds of knowledge. We leave no
stone unturned here, eh? I especially appreciated Alvaro Jaramillo's
call for a reappraisal of typical species, typical plumages, typical
variation, etc. A few thoughts of my own:

* I think we tend to view probability in terms of our own limited
knowledge. We assume that there is some Truth associated with each bird,
with each ID, with each question; and we ascribe a probability (say,
98%) to a certain Truth (say, This bird is a Thayer's Gull). Thus, we
say things like, "I am 98% certain that this bird is a Thayer's Gull."
But there's another component to probability: the Truth itself. In
addition to our own uncertainty, there may be an intrinsic imprecision
about the phenomenon that we are studying. Note: I'm not referring
merely to the problem of variation, i.e., "I'm 98% certain that this
bird falls within the range of variation for Thayer's Gull." Rather, I'm
talking about the uncomfortable notion that it may be impossible, even
given complete and perfect knowledge, to ascribe an identity to
something. Birds are unitary, discrete, highly determinate organisms,
and we tend to assume that, as a corollary, they must have discrete
identities. It's an idea that's as old as the Typological Species
Concept; heck, it's an idea that dates back to Genesis Chapter 1. But
it's an idea that is inconsistent, I believe, with modern biological
thought. Bottom line: When I find myself saying (as I did this past
Saturday on a local CBC) "That gull is consistent with first-cycle
Thayer's", I am not necessarily making a somewhat equivocal statement
about the limits of my own knowledge; rather, I may instead be making a
rather definitive statement about the bird's true identity.

* The broader problem of variation is one that, on the whole, we are
sidestepping. Our tendency, I believe, is to view variation with
reference to some baseline that the majority of individuals conform to.
Thus, in a given population, we might score 99% of the individuals as
"normal" and 1% as "outliers". It's a cultural problem, a cultural bias,
as much as anything else. That's because field guide authors (most
notably Roger Tory Peterson) have succeeded in getting us to look at
birds as discrete, invariant entities. Yes, there are outliers, in this
world view, but they stand out as islands of oddity in a sea of
uniformity. It has taken me a long time (>10 years), a lot of
statistical training, and even some philosophical reprogramming *not* to
look at birds in this way. For example: Show me a flock of ten Herring
Gulls and one Thayer's Gull; it is (still) hard for me not to view the
Herring Gulls as a baseline and the Thayer's as an outlier. Too
easy?--How about a flock of ten Mountain Chickadees and one Black-capped
Chickadee? How many of us really can look at the composite variation
among all eleven individuals, rather than viewing the problem as binary?
Here's another: a flock of ten House Finches and one Purple Finch. For
most of us, the Purple Finch stands right out. But that's really weird,
if you pause to think about it. If you own a copy of the Kaufman Focus
Guide to Birds (and all advanced birders should, for there's a lot of
disarmingly simple material in there), compare the enormous variation
depicted on p. 9 vs. the relative homogeneity depicted on p. 359.

* How might we get better at recognizing variation? An excellent
starting point, in my mind, would be to study one of the several
well-documented hybrid-swarm complexes in North America. (For
larophiles, in particular, the Olympic Gull complex would seem to be the
ideal venue.) For a variety of reasons of theory and empirical fact, we
should expect hybrid swarms to exhibit extensive, continuous or nearly
continuous, variation from (and even *beyond*) one parental type to
another. Thus, in a flock of eleven glaucescens/occidentalis gulls at a
park in the Pacific Northwest, we might actually work through the birds
one by one, noting the unique combination of characters of each. In this
way, we might eventually learn to recognize the variability in a flock
of eleven Carpodacus finches or eleven Poecile chickadees.

* By the way, this thread, in my mind, has been characteristically
dismissive in its treatment of hybrids. Me?--I see them everywhere I go.
For many taxa, my null hypothesis is that the bird I'm observing is a
hybrid. Two points that I am prompted to make, based on my reading of
this thread: (1) Often, it is *especially* at the periphery of a
population's range that we should expect hybrids. Thus, that weird,
out-of-range bird should be especially carefully scrutinized for
evidence of hybridization. (2) The acid test for hybrid status shouldn't
be clearly intermediate characters. On the contrary, hybrids may be
lurking in perfectly good phenotypes. Well known avian examples include
Black-capped vs. Carolina Chickadees and Blue-winged vs. "Brewster's"
Warblers. And here's a cool example from the ichthyological literature:
There is a lake in Quebec where the fish are completely fixed for salmon
mtDNA but are phenotypically trout-like in all respects.

* Which brings me back to my original point about knowability: What do
you call a bird that, say, has the phenotype of a Carolina Chickadee but
the genotype of a Black-capped Chickadee? Until not too long ago, the
pedant in me would have insisted on calling the bird a Black-capped
Chickadee--because the genotype is a more-fundamental unit of analysis.
But I've more recently arrived at what is, for me, a more-satisfying
conclusion: It is impossible to assign an identity, in any absolute
sense, to chickadees in southern Pennsylvania. We just don't have the
epistemological framework for doing so. Which makes the work of most
records committees, as they are presently chartered, look awfully
flimsy. Especially, it now dawns on me, when we recognize that a bird's
identity is relative, and conditional upon its frequency of occurrence;
cf. listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0407B&L=birdwg01&P=R75&I=-3.

Well! One of these days, we'll come to view the matter of bird
identification as holistic and probabilistic, not as reductionist and
deterministic. Along the way, we'll learn that bird identification isn't
a simple matter of either/or, that it can't be boiled down to
accept/reject. And, for sure, we'll become more accurate, and more
truthful, observers of Nature in the process.

----------------------------

Ted Floyd

Editor,
Birding

American Birding Association
P.O. Box 7974
Boulder, Colorado 80306-7974

303-444-6365
tedfloyd(AT)aba.org

Please visit the website of the
American Birding Association:
http://www.americanbirding.org

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland/Thayers; Thayer's cross-barring
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2004 10:33pm

> Also, Bill Tweit (formerly of Chicago, currently of Olympia WA) mentioned
> that during his last Chicago trip he noted two adult Thayer's (otherwise
typical,
> seen in flight and perched) that showed GWGU like cross barring on chest.
> Interestingly, neither of us remember seeing this mark on WA birds. As
Alvaro
> mentioned earlier, there may be some population to population variation in
these
> marks...

I've been looking at this specifically in a moderate sample of Thayer's
this past week on the central Oregon coast and have not seen
anything like the barring on the gull in question, although I've
only been able to find a handful of  2nd-3rd winter birds (mostly
looking at adults).

Actually some Thayer's do seem to show some latitudinal direction
to the markings - but the appearance is different, with the latitudinal
marks typically limited to the base of the marking hood on the breast,
and more widely spaced and heavier. I have not been able to find a
bird with extensive regular fine, closely spaced short marks in the
manner typical of Glaucous-winged, and (apparently) displayed by
the gull in question. When I've had the opportunity to study a
Thayer's-like bird with the latter type of marking it has invariably
turned out to show other characteristics questionable for Thayer's
and in line with a G-w x Herring hybrid such as unusually small
mirrors, questionably heavy bill, more Herring-like eyebrow ridge,
odd proportions etc.

Certainly markings could vary between populations, and if it's regional
it may have something to do with the possibility that Thayer's occuring
in the midwest may be more likely to be from populations that
are less genetically pure than birds that winter on the west coast.

Cheers,

Phil

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Corpus Christi YLG/LBB
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 1:55am

Ottavio,
There are not many features of these gulls that you can say a particular
taxon always has or never has. However, one reliable and consistent
difference between 1st winter LBBG and Mediterranean YLG is the contrast
between the back and the wings in flight. In LBBG, there is little or no
contrast, but in YLG, the back is always obviously paler than the wings.
The Texas bird has no such contrast, and so I would vote LBBG - except that
I do not know if the above holds for atlantis. Often, this contrast is not
at all obvious on perched YLG, but in my experience it always is in flight.
Would you agree with my assertion, or are there some 1st winter
Mediterranean michahellis with dark backs? Am I guilty of circularity?
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: FW: Corpus Christi YLG/LBB
From: Ottavio Janni <coeligena(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 4:47am

Hello all,

I'm forwarding this on behalf of Carlo Catoni, who is having trouble posting
to ID-Frontiers. With regards to Dick Newell's post, I don't think I've seen
a 1st winter michaellis YLG whose back was as dark as the wings in flight,
but I have to admit I've never looked at this field mark very closely.
Thanks to Dick and Carlo for making me realise that I need to look at YLGs
more carefully!

Ottavio Janni

>
>Hallo all,
>
>I'm a birder from Rome, Italy, rather experienced with gulls, and off
>course
>with YLG.
>I partially disagree with Ottavio Janni, regarding the possibility of
>this gull being a YLG.
>Although it closely resembles one, there are some characters that make
>me feel unconfortable with this id.
>
>On first the structure is rather light, with too long and slim neck,
>smallish head and too slender bill. Although it could be a small
>female YLG, it would be really on the smaller end of the variation,
>and I'm not sure whether I've ever seen such a delicate YLG.
>Colour could be ok, also the dark head wouldn't be a problem for YLG, even
>though the back seems a little bit too dark to me, mostly on the covers
>near the tertials (as Dick Newell just pointed out). Usually italian
>YLG are a little bit paler, but no idea of "atlantis" gulls.
>Ottavio already mentioned the wrong moult pattern of scapulars.
>
>Another important characteristic is the pattern of GC. They seem far
>to dark for a YLG, mostly on the inner ones. While the outer in YLG
>are usually exactly like a LBB, the inner GCs are usually more
>barred, even though not as much as a (european) Herring gull.
>
>In this gull I see only dark GC, and the innermost ones have only
>a small "white" indentation, exactly like most of the LBB we see here,
>and like no YLG I've seen until now (Or better, no YLG I righly identified
>until now ;-) ).
>
>Well, I can say that if I saw this gull in Italy I would have probably
>called a LBB rather than YLG, even though a pretty difficult one.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Bye
>Carlo
>I know it's not an English marterpiece, sorry about that.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Carlo Catoni
>PhD Student
>Albert-Ludwigs
>Universtit�t Freiburg
>Institut f�r Biologie I
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Tiscali Adsl 2 Mega Free: l'adsl piu' veloce e' gratis!
>Naviga libero dai costi fissi con Tiscali Adsl 2 Mega Free, l'adsl Free
>piu' veloce in Italia. In piu', se ti abboni entro il 7 gennaio 2005,
>navighi gratis fino al 31 marzo. E il costo di adesione e' GRATIS.
>http://abbonati.tiscali.it/adsl/
>
>
>

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland Gull/Thayer's.
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 8:20am

Wow! where to begin? So many interesting threads.

I think variability in adult thayeri and kumlieni primaries has been 
nicely defined by Elliot, Howell, and Mactavish in the articles
in Alula issues 4/01 and 1/03.  While obviously not the final 
word on the matter it provides an excellent measure of the
variability in the sampled populations, and given the localities
of those populations I think it probably reflects the actual
variation in the species (or whatever they are) as a whole.

The fact that thayeri on the west coast can appear nearly identical
to the NH kumlieni and the bird in Iceland in terms of darkness 
suggests to me that degree of pigmentation should not be used as a 
field mark to separate juvs of the 2. I am more intrigued by the 
statements made regarding the scapular molt and patterns. This seems 
to me to be a better lead and should be quantifiable. If there are any 
publications on this I would like to know the reference.

1 tidbit of personal experience regarding "typical" appearances of Kumlieni
and alleged thayeri from my neck of the woods I would like to share.
In winter of 2002-03 when the Great Lakes froze over putting scores of 
Red-necked Grebes in the mid-Atlantic there were also larger numbers
of thayeri type gulls at the local gull spot. That year I and some others
perhaps erroneously reported 4 Thayers on the S. Bucks Co. CBC in Dec. '02. 
Prior to that I was seeing fewer brown winged thayeri type birds, such that 
when I did see a bird I called a Thayer's it was much darker than what I was 
used to calling Kumlien's. The "lesson" I take from this is that there are 
more thayeri types hanging around on the Great Lakes than the East 
Coast. Subsequent comments and images from the Great Lakes of various
birds makes me think that there are more "mongrels" there than here
which in a simplistic bio-geographical view makes sense. Following my above
statement I would not want to say there are more Thayer's on the great lakes
but rather pigmentation increases to the west and it seems clinal (duh!) such
that
Kumlien's here in the PA/NJ area "typically" are pale-winged enough to make the
observer feel comfortable ID'ing them. Basically given the clinal nature of 
pigmentation I think there needs to be other unrelated characters used before
anything definitive can said regarding darkness of Thayer's vs kumlieni. I
think
pigmentation is a red-herring when it comes to ID'ing these birds. Useful for 
picking a suspect out of a flock but confusing when used to determine a
species.

And while being simplistic - I while reiterate when Norman said. Someone needs
to band these things so at the very least we can figure out where in the world
they are coming from, otherwise we are mostly, as Alvaro said more politely
just peeing into the wind.

Also thanks to those who have responded to the barring question. I knew 
it was too simple to be true, at least as a general statement. Another bit of
pee I need to go wash off.

cheers
Matt

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: coastal bias
From: "Michael L. P. Retter" <mlretter(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 9:38am

Matt Sharp said, "While obviously not the final
word on the matter it provides an excellent measure of
the variability in the sampled populations, and given
the localities of those populations I think it
probably reflects the actual variation in the species
(or whatever they are) as a whole."  (He was referring
to [excellent] studies of Thayer's Gulls in California
and Kumlien's Gulls in Newfoundland.)

I must strongly disagree.  There are something like
3,500 miles between those two locations.  It only
makes sense then (especially if we're dealing with a
cline), that somewhere over that 3,500 miles, there is
more variablility, and even some intergrades.

I think this highlights a more widespread problem in
North American birding:  the fact that the interior of
the continent is virtually ignored by those on the
coasts.  While this problem certainly rears its ugly
head when it comes to understanding natural variation,
it's most problematic when it comes to range maps.

I suspect that making broad assumptions about what
happens over a 3,500 swath of the (entire) midsection
of the continent that are based only on observations
made at either end is more than just a little
problematic, and likely, inaccurate.

=====
========================
Michael L. P. Retter
Bloomington-Normal
McLean Co, Illinois
mlretter AT yahoo.com
309.824.7317
========================

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland Gull/Thayer's.
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 21 Dec 2004 9:54am

Greetings

Though most juv Thayer's do not start transition to 1st basic until spring, I've
 definitely seen some birds with a few 1st basic feathers in December(assuming
I'm not screwing up some hybrid or a dark Kumlein's). Not a large percentage of
birds, but not ridiculously small either.

Additionally, I was talking to a Herring Gull biologist in La Paz last winter
(how that happened, is a long story and beyond the scope of this listserv) and
he mentioned the tremendous variability in molt rapidity. Some birds, probably
based on a combination of location, genetics, and food supply, proceed through
molt cycles quicker than others. In the lab, if I am remembering correctly, they
 can get a bird into adult plumage in a year or so.

As with everything larid-related, nothing seems hard and fast.

Anyway
Best Wishes
Steven Mlodinow

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland Gull/Thayer's.
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 11:21am

> Though most juv Thayer's do not start transition to 1st basic >
>until spring, I've definitely seen some birds with a few 1st basic
> >feathers in December(assuming I'm not screwing up some >hybrid or a
>dark Kumlein's). Not a large percentage of birds, but >not
>ridiculously small either.

Such a juvenile Thayer's showing a few replaced mantle and scap
feathers was  photographed Dec. 19 in the same loc. as the original N
Ill. gull, by the same  photographer, Bob Hughes-

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/121904thayers.jpg

-and yet look at the wear on this 2nd CY bird from Feb.with no gray
feathers as has been described for most Thayer's of this age-

http://birds.excelcomm.com/gullpage/pic.asp?id=THGU&pid=116

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Sea Eagle??
From: Barb Beck <barb(AT)BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 11:38am

People in Victoria, British Columbia are struggling with the id of an
eagle that the CBC counters spotted. Thought somebody in this group
might help.   Pictures of the bird can be found in the FILES section of
their birding group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bcbirdingvanisland.:
The photos are in the folder "Goldstream Eagle".    It appears to be
huge with a massive yellow bill.  The jury is still out on the bird.  It
could be a hybrid or a strange monster immature Bald Eagle with a huge
yellow beak or ??

One observer reported:  " The massive orange-yellow bill is visible
through binoculars from a
long way. We watched the bird through telescopes--it was easy to see
that it was much larger that the bald eagles next to it. We also
observed it in flight, in good light. The tail has a slight wedge
shape, but the wedge is not as pronounced as on the photos of the
adults seen on various photos one finds through Google on the
Interent.  There is no consensus as to whether or no it is a Steller's.
But if
it is not a Steller's sea eagle, many of us cannot imagine what else
it could be."

To read the debate on this bird check out the discussion on Silers
Birding on the Net web page:
http://birdingonthe.net/ -> Regional Specialty Mailing Lists then go
down to Canada and click the BC Vancouver Island link.

To see the pictures you must join the group but that just takes a minute.

Now back to gulls.

Barb Beck
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Goldstream Eagle
From: David Allinson <passerine(AT)SHAW.CA>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 11:48am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

For clarification, the bird was first discovered and videotaped on December
8th, it was not reported again until December 17, unfortunately it was not
seen during our CBC on the 18th, but it has been seen on December 19 and
20th. The bird will likely stay with the other eagles at the salmon spawning
site over the winter (Goldstream Provincial Park is just north of Victoria
on Vancouver Island)...note my comments and others can be viewed on
bcbirdingvanisland@yahoogroups via the link provided.

David Allinson

Victoria, BC

-----Original Message-----

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barb Beck

Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 10:39 AM

To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU

Subject: Sea Eagle??

People in Victoria, British Columbia are struggling with the id of an eagle
that the CBC counters spotted. Thought somebody in this group

might help.   Pictures of the bird can be found in the FILES section of

their birding group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bcbirdingvanisland.:

The photos are in the folder "Goldstream Eagle".    It appears to be

huge with a massive yellow bill.  The jury is still out on the bird.  It
could be a hybrid or a strange monster immature Bald Eagle with a huge
yellow beak or ??

One observer reported:  " The massive orange-yellow bill is visible through
binoculars from a long way. We watched the bird through telescopes--it was
easy to see that it was much larger that the bald eagles next to it. We also
observed it in flight, in good light. The tail has a slight wedge shape, but
the wedge is not as pronounced as on the photos of the adults seen on
various photos one finds through Google on the Internet.  There is no
consensus as to whether or no it is a Steller's.

But if

it is not a Steller's sea eagle, many of us cannot imagine what else it
could be."

To read the debate on this bird check out the discussion on Silers Birding
on the Net web page:

http://birdingonthe.net/ -> Regional Specialty Mailing Lists then go down to
Canada and click the BC Vancouver Island link.

To see the pictures you must join the group but that just takes a minute.

Now back to gulls.

Barb Beck

Edmonton, Alberta Canada

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Sea Eagle??
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 11:50am

All:

We have had a few pictures of this bird circulated on Kantori, the
Japanese birding group. Several birders there, including myself, think
the bird is a pretty obvious Steller's Sea Eagle. I have just joined the
group but it's moderated so you don't get immediate access to the
pictures. Some pictures can be viewed at:

http://ca.geocities.com/kantorilode 

Look under 'Species Identification'. 

I am hoping to see more pictures, especially showing the wing and tail
patterns and shape. While I'm not sure I can definitively say it's not a
hybrid, I don't understand how anyone can say this is a Bald Eagle.

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barb Beck
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 10:39 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sea Eagle??

People in Victoria, British Columbia are struggling with the id of an
eagle that the CBC counters spotted. Thought somebody in this group
might help.   Pictures of the bird can be found in the FILES section of
their birding group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bcbirdingvanisland.:
The photos are in the folder "Goldstream Eagle".    It appears to be
huge with a massive yellow bill.  The jury is still out on the bird.  It
could be a hybrid or a strange monster immature Bald Eagle with a huge
yellow beak or ??

One observer reported:  " The massive orange-yellow bill is visible
through binoculars from a
long way. We watched the bird through telescopes--it was easy to see
that it was much larger that the bald eagles next to it. We also
observed it in flight, in good light. The tail has a slight wedge
shape, but the wedge is not as pronounced as on the photos of the
adults seen on various photos one finds through Google on the
Interent.  There is no consensus as to whether or no it is a Steller's.
But if
it is not a Steller's sea eagle, many of us cannot imagine what else
it could be."

To read the debate on this bird check out the discussion on Silers
Birding on the Net web page:
http://birdingonthe.net/ -> Regional Specialty Mailing Lists then go
down to Canada and click the BC Vancouver Island link.

To see the pictures you must join the group but that just takes a
minute.

Now back to gulls.

Barb Beck
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Sea Eagle??
From: David Allinson <passerine(AT)SHAW.CA>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 12:17pm

Hi again folks,
The problem with this bird is mainly the head and bill -- I agree at first
glance it does scream Steller's, but on closer inspection: the overall head
shape and proportions are wrong (a Steller's has a small head in relation to
bill, which should be bigger than length of skull); an immature/first-winter
(?) Steller's bill should also have a two-tone look with more white at base
and on upper mandible instead of bright orange-yellow as on this bird; the
tell-tale bump on cere of bill is also lacking with this bird, but that is
somewhat consistent with its age perhaps and bare parts not being fully
developed yet; it has white undertail coverts (more typical of a Baldie) and
the tail itself is overall very dark brown/black with some white splotches,
instead of showing grayish-white on its upperside. What remains problematic
is the tail's shape - it is somewhat more wedge-shaped than rounded, but no
where near what it should be for a Steller's. Furthermore, after saying all
that, I agree the bird certainly does not look like any Baldie I have ever
seen (and we have lots up here in BC)! And if not a hybrid, and not a
Steller's, then what the heck is it?!
We will continue to try and get better looks of bird in flight and get more
photos. It seems to be most "reliable" in late afternoon from 2:30-4:00
feeding on the foreshore at the estuary (which is closed to the public, so
there is only one viewing location to see bird and it can easily disappear
into trees in forest at the edges).

David Allinson
Victoria, BC

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Lethaby, Nick
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 10:50 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: Sea Eagle??

All:

We have had a few pictures of this bird circulated on Kantori, the
Japanese birding group. Several birders there, including myself, think
the bird is a pretty obvious Steller's Sea Eagle. I have just joined the
group but it's moderated so you don't get immediate access to the
pictures. Some pictures can be viewed at:

http://ca.geocities.com/kantorilode

Look under 'Species Identification'.

I am hoping to see more pictures, especially showing the wing and tail
patterns and shape. While I'm not sure I can definitively say it's not a
hybrid, I don't understand how anyone can say this is a Bald Eagle.

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barb Beck
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 10:39 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sea Eagle??

People in Victoria, British Columbia are struggling with the id of an
eagle that the CBC counters spotted. Thought somebody in this group
might help.   Pictures of the bird can be found in the FILES section of
their birding group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bcbirdingvanisland.:
The photos are in the folder "Goldstream Eagle".    It appears to be
huge with a massive yellow bill.  The jury is still out on the bird.  It
could be a hybrid or a strange monster immature Bald Eagle with a huge
yellow beak or ??

One observer reported:  " The massive orange-yellow bill is visible
through binoculars from a
long way. We watched the bird through telescopes--it was easy to see
that it was much larger that the bald eagles next to it. We also
observed it in flight, in good light. The tail has a slight wedge
shape, but the wedge is not as pronounced as on the photos of the
adults seen on various photos one finds through Google on the
Interent.  There is no consensus as to whether or no it is a Steller's.
But if
it is not a Steller's sea eagle, many of us cannot imagine what else
it could be."

To read the debate on this bird check out the discussion on Silers
Birding on the Net web page:
http://birdingonthe.net/ -> Regional Specialty Mailing Lists then go
down to Canada and click the BC Vancouver Island link.

To see the pictures you must join the group but that just takes a
minute.

Now back to gulls.

Barb Beck
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland/Thayers; Thayer's cross-barring
From: Jim Pike <jpike44(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 1:01pm

Hi,  Just wanted to add Glaucous Gull to the growing list of species which
appear to be at least occasionally capable of displaying latitudinal
barring. Having received Olsen and Larsson's gull book in the mail
yesterday, there is a nice picture of an adult GLGU from the Netherlands
(#234) exhibiting fairly distinct crossbarring on the neck. I guess the
moral of the story is that you don't know what you will find until you
look for it.

Jim Pike
Huntington Beach, CA

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Baikal Teal pattern
From: Jim Pike <jpike44(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 1:25pm

Hi, In light of the previous comments on the expression of Baikal Teal
genes in hybrid ducks, I find it interesting to note how frequently I've
seen a ghost pattern of a Baikal Teal-like crescent across the cheeks of
male American Wigeons. As the birds appeared to be 'pure' AMWIs in all
other respects, I conclude that it doesn't always require hybridization
for these ancestral traits to surface.

Jim Pike
Huntington Beach, CA

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Dark Iceland/Thayers Gull
From: "James P. Smith" <keenbirder(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 2:15pm

Hi birders,

Thanks to all that have contributed to the lively
discussion on this bird and others like it,

http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/KumorThayerGull1.html

I would also admit to being uncomfortable with the
strict use of molt timings in excluding the
possibilities of vagrant gulls, though I also feel
that it�s not a plus if a potential �out-of-range�
bird shows signs of less than usual molt timings.

Also of interest, this passage from Howell & Elliot in
Alula 4/2001; � but, moult timing in gulls (and most
species) is flexible, not fixed: thus, a Thayer�s
wintering in Newfoundland could moult on the same
schedule as the Kumlien�s Gulls there, ...�

Actually, I couldn�t find any evidence of new scaps on
any of the twelve �typical� kumlieni that I
photographed on the same day as the dark bird. A
couple of those individuals can be seen here;

http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/kumliensgull.html

John Idzikowski wrote >>

"Such a juvenile Thayer's showing a few replaced
mantle and scap feathers was  photographed Dec. 19 in
the same loc. as the original N Ill. gull, by the same
 photographer, Bob Hughes-�

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/121904thayers.jpg

I also wondered why this photo was a �pure� Thayer�s
rather than a Kumlieni/Thayer�s intergrade. Looks very
similar indeed to the bird from New Hampshire,
especially in the primaries department.

Best to all,

James P. Smith
Keene, NH

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland/Thayers Gull
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 2:44pm

> http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/121904thayers.jpg
>
>
> I also wondered why this photo was a 'pure' Thayer's
> rather than a Kumlieni/Thayer's intergrade. Looks very
> similar indeed to the bird from New Hampshire,
> especially in the primaries department.

I posted this shot as this bird shows other, more typical,
Thayer's-like characters such as the darker centers to the scaps
showing a sort of pentagonal pattern and overall it seems to be
structurally more like a Thayer's and it shows a few gray scaps.
Compare it to the surrounding HERGs for size. The NH bird seems like a
smaller, more petite bird and the consideration of it as a dark
Kumlien's is valid. The Ill bird would probably not be considered as a
Kumlien's nor probably given a second look in this area, even if it
did show slight moult, but at the same time other such maybe lighter
or smaller birds, especially in subadult plumage probably cannot be
confidently ID'd until definitive plumage is reached. I am hoping for
some western opinions on this bird.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

----- Original Message -----
From: "James P. Smith" <keenbirder(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 3:15 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Dark Iceland/Thayers Gull

> Hi birders,
>
> Thanks to all that have contributed to the lively
> discussion on this bird and others like it,
>
> http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/KumorThayerGull1.html
>
> I would also admit to being uncomfortable with the
> strict use of molt timings in excluding the
> possibilities of vagrant gulls, though I also feel
> that it's not a plus if a potential 'out-of-range'
> bird shows signs of less than usual molt timings.
>
> Also of interest, this passage from Howell & Elliot in
> Alula 4/2001; " but, moult timing in gulls (and most
> species) is flexible, not fixed: thus, a Thayer's
> wintering in Newfoundland could moult on the same
> schedule as the Kumlien's Gulls there, ..."
>
> Actually, I couldn't find any evidence of new scaps on
> any of the twelve 'typical' kumlieni that I
> photographed on the same day as the dark bird. A
> couple of those individuals can be seen here;
>
> http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/kumliensgull.html
>
> John Idzikowski wrote >>
>
> "Such a juvenile Thayer's showing a few replaced
> mantle and scap feathers was  photographed Dec. 19 in
> the same loc. as the original N Ill. gull, by the same
> photographer, Bob Hughes-"
>
>
> Best to all,
>
> James P. Smith
> Keene, NH
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more.
> http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Sea Eagle??
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 2:50pm

I don't see a lot wrong with the bill color - it has the browner bill
tip associated with an immature. Since Bald Eagle have dark bills when
immature, I don't see how have brighter yellow bill favors a hybrid.
Also the brightness of the bill will probably be age dependent. If this
bird has a clearly pale eye, which it looks to have in the photos I've
seen, this would make it at least a third calendar year bird. This could
easily account for the more uniformly yellow bill.

In terms of bill shape, the shape varies between adult females and
males. Females have the 'arched; appearance on the upper mandible,
whereas on males the bill is flatter. I'm not sure of the case in
immatures, but I don't think the bill shape is out of line for a male
Steller's. I will try to bring my books in tomorrow to check this out
directly against the photos.

I am a bit concerned about the plumage. I have gone through several
Japanese books and haven't found a bird that shows such obvious white
spotting/streaking on the neck/mantle (and possibly the underside too)
as this bird shows or the hint of a pale supercilium. However, I have a
pretty limited collection of perched imms and several of the flying ones
look like they have pale markings on the underside. Also a 3Y bird
should show some white speckling along the front of the wing. Until I
see better photos it's hard to really check these things out.

Since I think a hybrid is a really remote possibility and these immature
eagles are pretty variable, I'm assuming that Steller's can show these
markings. If not, then I guess the hybrid theory needs a closer look.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Allinson
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:18 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sea Eagle??

Hi again folks,
The problem with this bird is mainly the head and bill -- I agree at
first
glance it does scream Steller's, but on closer inspection: the overall
head
shape and proportions are wrong (a Steller's has a small head in
relation to
bill, which should be bigger than length of skull); an
immature/first-winter
(?) Steller's bill should also have a two-tone look with more white at
base
and on upper mandible instead of bright orange-yellow as on this bird;
the
tell-tale bump on cere of bill is also lacking with this bird, but that
is
somewhat consistent with its age perhaps and bare parts not being fully
developed yet; it has white undertail coverts (more typical of a Baldie)
and
the tail itself is overall very dark brown/black with some white
splotches,
instead of showing grayish-white on its upperside. What remains
problematic
is the tail's shape - it is somewhat more wedge-shaped than rounded, but
no
where near what it should be for a Steller's. Furthermore, after saying
all
that, I agree the bird certainly does not look like any Baldie I have
ever
seen (and we have lots up here in BC)! And if not a hybrid, and not a
Steller's, then what the heck is it?!
We will continue to try and get better looks of bird in flight and get
more
photos. It seems to be most "reliable" in late afternoon from 2:30-4:00
feeding on the foreshore at the estuary (which is closed to the public,
so
there is only one viewing location to see bird and it can easily
disappear
into trees in forest at the edges).

David Allinson
Victoria, BC

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Lethaby, Nick
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 10:50 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: Sea Eagle??

All:

We have had a few pictures of this bird circulated on Kantori, the
Japanese birding group. Several birders there, including myself, think
the bird is a pretty obvious Steller's Sea Eagle. I have just joined the
group but it's moderated so you don't get immediate access to the
pictures. Some pictures can be viewed at:

http://ca.geocities.com/kantorilode

Look under 'Species Identification'.

I am hoping to see more pictures, especially showing the wing and tail
patterns and shape. While I'm not sure I can definitively say it's not a
hybrid, I don't understand how anyone can say this is a Bald Eagle.

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barb Beck
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 10:39 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sea Eagle??

People in Victoria, British Columbia are struggling with the id of an
eagle that the CBC counters spotted. Thought somebody in this group
might help.   Pictures of the bird can be found in the FILES section of
their birding group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bcbirdingvanisland.:
The photos are in the folder "Goldstream Eagle".    It appears to be
huge with a massive yellow bill.  The jury is still out on the bird.  It
could be a hybrid or a strange monster immature Bald Eagle with a huge
yellow beak or ??

One observer reported:  " The massive orange-yellow bill is visible
through binoculars from a
long way. We watched the bird through telescopes--it was easy to see
that it was much larger that the bald eagles next to it. We also
observed it in flight, in good light. The tail has a slight wedge
shape, but the wedge is not as pronounced as on the photos of the
adults seen on various photos one finds through Google on the
Interent.  There is no consensus as to whether or no it is a Steller's.
But if
it is not a Steller's sea eagle, many of us cannot imagine what else
it could be."

To read the debate on this bird check out the discussion on Silers
Birding on the Net web page:
http://birdingonthe.net/ -> Regional Specialty Mailing Lists then go
down to Canada and click the BC Vancouver Island link.

To see the pictures you must join the group but that just takes a
minute.

Now back to gulls.

Barb Beck
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Proper Link to sea eagle stuff
From: Barb Beck <barb(AT)BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 4:21pm

Sorry, doing everythingin too much of a hurry today
The proper link is:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bcbirdingvanisland

Sorry about the problems.  In just too much of a Christmas rush

Barb Beck
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in Washington
         State
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 5:55pm

Hi All,

Searching (unsuccessfully) for the pics of the mystery sea eagle in
BC (do you need to be a member of the group to view pics?), I
stumbled upon the reports of a Redwing (Turdus iliacus) discovered
12/20/2004 in Olympia, Washington State.

Obviously this is very exciting news but what caught my attention was
David Allinson 's header, "the northern/Asian invasion continues!" I
have always thought of Redwings a more of a European bird than an
Asian one. I don't have the wonderful Clement and Hathway "Thrushes"
(2001) book at work soI can't check the range map and subspecies info.

How far across Siberia does the breeding range extend? As far east as
Fieldfare (which has occurred in Alaska more than once)?  Googling
confirmed that Redwing is listed as an accidental in Japan, so maybe
the more eastern birds do continue eastwards? This might be
reminiscent of the Spotted Flycatcher and Lesser Whitethroat at
Gambell, St. Lawrence Island, birds that are from central Asia,
rather than the more proximal Far-East.

All other North American records have been from the northeastern
coastal states/provinces (New York, Mass, Newfoundland, New
Brunswick), right? Is this likely to be the first example of the
nominate subspecies (assuming the others were the Icelandic-Faeroese
subspecies T. i. coburni)?

Angus Wilson
New York City

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in
         Washington State
From: Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 6:04pm

To answer my own question, the on-line Sibley and Monroe Checklist
states that Redwing breeds as far as the Lena and Kolyma Rivers and
Lake Baikal. This is similar to Fieldfare (Lena R., Lake Baikal and
Sayan Mts.). Presumably these eastern birds are pretty long-distance
migrants (next Q:  where do they winter? Iran?) and so might be
considered very good candidates for vagrancy.

Angus Wilson
New York City

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Re Sea Eagle Pictures
From: Barb Beck <barb(AT)BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 6:12pm

Hi,

Several people have complained that they must join the group to see the
pictures.  I have asked for permission to post them on my web site. Will
let you know if  I get it.

Barb Beck
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

PS To those of you who did not get an answer from me - your internet
provider is rejecting my legitimate mesage from a legitimate server
because it uses an outdated maps list and does not inform you of
rejected messages. There are far better ways to eliminate spam.   (Get
Mozilla's Thunder bird if you want to eliminate spam safely - it is free
but you might want to encourage good work with a donation..  Also much
more secure than Windogs Outhouse or Expose.    It has an easy to use
Bayasian filter that learns what you consider spam and also keeps all of
the stuff it marks as spam so you can quickly sort out an errant message
before deletion.  .  I am blessed with 300 - 400 messages a day (almost
all spam because I have IDs which have been around since the dawn of the
internet and my addresses are everywhere.) all but one or two are caught
each day and I can handle that and it makes the wrong choice on a valid
message about once every three weeks.  Not bad in my books.)   While you
are at it check out Firefox, a very good web browser - much more secure
than Windogs Exploder.

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Goldstream Eagle Pictures
From: David Allinson <passerine(AT)SHAW.CA>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 6:25pm

If you want to see 6 stills taken from the video, you can e-mail me
privately and I can send them to you electronically.

David Allinson
passerine(AT)shaw.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barb Beck
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:12 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: Re Sea Eagle Pictures

Hi,

Several people have complained that they must join the group to see the
pictures.  I have asked for permission to post them on my web site. Will
let you know if  I get it.

Barb Beck
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Eagle pics
From: "James P. Smith" <keenbirder(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 6:30pm

Barb and all,

Are these not the pics of the eagle in question posted
by Nick Lethaby earlier today?

http://ca.geocities.com/kantorilode/Species/Eagle.html#Eagle%20(Temporary)

Cheers,

James P. Smith
Keene, NH.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in
         Washington State
From: gdentremont(AT)JUNO.COM
Date: 21 Dec 2004 7:43pm

Some people may not be aware of recent (within a week) reports of TWO
Fieldfare in New Hampshire.  I do not have details.

Since Asian birds do on occasion make it to the east coast of North
America, why could not a European bird make it to the west coast of North
America?  In other words, does this Redwing had to originate in Asia?

        Glenn

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:56:05 -0500 Angus Wilson <wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU>
writes:
> Hi All,
>
> Searching (unsuccessfully) for the pics of the mystery sea eagle in
> BC (do you need to be a member of the group to view pics?), I
> stumbled upon the reports of a Redwing (Turdus iliacus) discovered
> 12/20/2004 in Olympia, Washington State.
>
> Obviously this is very exciting news but what caught my attention
> was
> David Allinson 's header, "the northern/Asian invasion continues!"
> I
> have always thought of Redwings a more of a European bird than an
> Asian one. I don't have the wonderful Clement and Hathway
> "Thrushes"
> (2001) book at work soI can't check the range map and subspecies
> info.
>
> How far across Siberia does the breeding range extend? As far east
> as
> Fieldfare (which has occurred in Alaska more than once)?  Googling
> confirmed that Redwing is listed as an accidental in Japan, so
> maybe
> the more eastern birds do continue eastwards? This might be
> reminiscent of the Spotted Flycatcher and Lesser Whitethroat at
> Gambell, St. Lawrence Island, birds that are from central Asia,
> rather than the more proximal Far-East.
>
> All other North American records have been from the northeastern
> coastal states/provinces (New York, Mass, Newfoundland, New
> Brunswick), right? Is this likely to be the first example of the
> nominate subspecies (assuming the others were the
> Icelandic-Faeroese
> subspecies T. i. coburni)?
>
> Angus Wilson
> New York City
>
>

Glenn d'Entremont
gdentremont(AT)juno.com
Stoughton, MA

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Redwing >T. iliacus< in Mass. October 1986;
         subspecies?
From: Jim Barton <redwingatfp1986(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 21 Dec 2004 10:01pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

    Hello.  I note Angus Wilson's recent comments on Redwing subspecies =
with interest.  I recorded a Redwing T. iliacus at the Fresh Pond =
Reservation in Cambridge, Mass. in late October, 1986.  Hence my email =
address- "atfp1986".

    The bird was present for three days, and was subsequently well seen =
by two other people.  One was a very well known, very experienced and =
very conservative birder; however, the local expert committee trashed =
the bird.  I use that verb advisedly.

    Angus and others-- I would be very interested in knowing how one =
would determine whether a Redwing is the Icelandic subspecies =
T.i.coburni.  =20

    What was most striking about the Fresh Pond bird was its face. =
Initially, all I saw was its head and a small part of its breast.  The =
bold facial pattern and streaked breast were unlike those of any North =
American bird I knew of, except Louisiana Waterthrush Seiurus motacilla, =
which has a long, very prominent white supercilium and a white =
submoustachial stripe.    I was carrying a rather inadequate European =
field guide, which I had studied, and which, if anything, oversimplifed =
and thus dramatized Redwing facial features.  I knew almost instantly =
what the bird had to be.   I checked the guide.  Fairly shortly, the =
bird gave me a look at its flanks.   The guide showed them as pink. I =
saw them as burnt orange-red.  Then the bird buried itself in the =
foliage.  I did not have time to wait for it to reappear.  A second =
observer saw the bird perched and in flight the following morning.   A =
third observer saw the bird in flight the following day. =20

    Yours,

Jim Barton
redwingatfp1986(AT)comcast.net
Cambridge, MA
US Coordinator, Proact
campaigning for birds and their habitats
before it's too late
www.proact-campaigns.net

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in
         Washington State
From: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 3:13am

Hi Angus:

I see you answered some of your own questions, but I already had this
composed, so here you go ...

It looks like Redwing (Turdus iliacus) breeds as far eastward in Siberia as
about 160-161 degrees W, north of the Arctic Circle, just east of the lower
Kolyma River. This is about 800 miles from Gambell, the closest point of
USA land.

Although mostly clinal, Clement (2000) identifies two subspecies; the
northern Eurasian widespread nominate (somewhere I've seen this referred to
as the "Continental Redwing") and T. i. coburni (the "Icelandic Redwing")
which breeds in Iceland and the Faeroes. Colburni is reported by Clement as
being similar to the nominate, however, very slightly larger; upperparts
slightly darker or deeper warm brown; black streaks on breast heavier; and
together with sides of belly, flanks and undertail coverts, washed olive-brown.

Redwing winters mostly in Europe and Caspian to Kazakhstan.

Neither the AOU (1998) nor Clement (2000) list any Alaskan records. Clement
indicates that the 1959 New York record was often considered by some to be
a possible escapee.

Here is a link to a Russian range map for Redwing ... it seems to be in
sync with Flint (1984) and Clement (2000).

http://www.neisri.magadan.ru/academnet/infocentr/f_f/fauna/ptici/ptici_osn/254.htm

FYI ... I ran the Russian text through Babblefish ...

         http://babel.altavista.com/translate.dyn

and here is the (somewhat broken) result ...

Turdus iliacus Linnaeus - belobrovik. It is encountered on nesting place in
the north- taiga landscapes of the ponds Of kolymy and Indigirka, but east
of the mouth of r.Oloy apparently does not nest. It is not found in the
territories, which are to the coast of Sea of Okhotsk. In spring it appears
in the average flow Of kolymy in the second decade of May, and near the
northern boundary of area - at the end of May. The nesting it approaches
early, already in the first decade of June. In the layings there are 4-6
eggs. Sletki appear in the second decade of July. In autumn belobroviki
begin to fly away in the last decade of August, but on the good berry
fields frequently they stay to the third decade of September.

This is an interesting set of Russian range maps. Paul Lehman passed on the
reference to them from a third party that included the following comments ...

" ... would like to draw your attention to distribution maps, made by the
Magadan team of Russian ornithologists: They can be found at

http://www.neisri.magadan.ru/academnet/infocentr/f_f/fauna/ptici/ptici.html

"... I can not find any names of authors for these maps, but as far as I
understand, they work in the Russian Academy of Sciences, Far Eastern Branch."

Hope this helps.

Phil

At 19:56 12/21/2004 -0500, Angus Wilson wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Searching (unsuccessfully) for the pics of the mystery sea eagle in
>BC (do you need to be a member of the group to view pics?), I
>stumbled upon the reports of a Redwing (Turdus iliacus) discovered
>12/20/2004 in Olympia, Washington State.
>
>Obviously this is very exciting news but what caught my attention was
>David Allinson 's header, "the northern/Asian invasion continues!" I
>have always thought of Redwings a more of a European bird than an
>Asian one. I don't have the wonderful Clement and Hathway "Thrushes"
>(2001) book at work soI can't check the range map and subspecies info.
>
>How far across Siberia does the breeding range extend? As far east as
>Fieldfare (which has occurred in Alaska more than once)?  Googling
>confirmed that Redwing is listed as an accidental in Japan, so maybe
>the more eastern birds do continue eastwards? This might be
>reminiscent of the Spotted Flycatcher and Lesser Whitethroat at
>Gambell, St. Lawrence Island, birds that are from central Asia,
>rather than the more proximal Far-East.
>
>All other North American records have been from the northeastern
>coastal states/provinces (New York, Mass, Newfoundland, New
>Brunswick), right? Is this likely to be the first example of the
>nominate subspecies (assuming the others were the Icelandic-Faeroese
>subspecies T. i. coburni)?
>
>Angus Wilson
>New York City

==================================
Phil Davis      Davidsonville, Maryland     USA
                 mailto:PDavis(AT)ix.netcom.com
==================================

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: That interesting albatross...a summary
From: Tony Pym <tony_pym(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 2:54am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Hi everyone

Three weeks back I posted some photos of an odd albatross photographed =
along the Humboldt Current. I'd like to thank those that responded with =
views about the identification of this bird. A summary has now been put =
onto the webpage below, and makes for interesting reading - was it a =
retarded immature Grey-headed Albatross, or Pacific (Buller's) Albatross =
in an undescribed plumage phase? Take a read and you'll see why there's =
still some confusion on which species it was...  =20

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/tonypym/WhichAlbatross.html

=20

Regards

Tony Pym

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland/Thayers Gull
From: Robert Hughes <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 5:40am

> http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/121904thayers.jpg
>
>
> I also wondered why this photo was a �pure� Thayer�s
> rather than a Kumlieni/Thayer�s intergrade. Looks very
> similar indeed to the bird from New Hampshire,
> especially in the primaries department.

It seems like the burden of proof for identifying Thayer's Gulls in the 
field keeps getting higher and higher while the burden of proof for 
identifying Iceland Gulls in the field gets looser and looser. How come 
Iceland Gulls can be so variable yet Thayer's have to be "perfect" and 
not show any signs of introgression to pass muster? An Iceland Gull can 
be anything from a bird with unmarked white wing tips to a bird with 
blackish primaries that resembles a Thayer's Gull! I think a little 
clarity is needed here.

Robert Hughes
Chicago, Illinois

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland/Thayers Gull
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 7:17am

>An Iceland Gull can be anything from a bird with >unmarked white wing tips to a
 bird with
>blackish primaries that resembles a Thayer's >Gull!

That seems to be the range of variation in adult 
Kumlien's Gull. An actual Iceland Gull meaning 
nominate glaucoides would probably have to pass an
even greater test to be accepted were it to show up in the mid-atlantic.

If you think it is hard for a Thayer's to be accepted in the east, try and get a
 Kumlien's
Gull accepted by the CA records committee :)

I think juv Thayer's and Kumlien's are extremely difficult to seperate in the
field and thus have
been over-accepted in the east in the past based on the if it's dark it's a
Thayer's model. As we
understand the origin of Kumlien's better (or
realize how much we don't know) I think the bar 
is getting higher on THayer's in the east. The
Great Lakes may be a different situation but if anything it seems even more
confusing there with
a greater # of intermediates.

Matt

Cheers

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland/Thayers Gull
From: Robert Hughes <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 7:29am

> That seems to be the range of variation in adult
> Kumlien's Gull.

Yes, but if I understand the situation correctly, this range of
variation found in Iceland Gulls is due to interbreeding with Thayer's
Gulls. I have a hard time believing that the small, very subtle
differences we use to separate the two matter to the birds when
choosing a mate. The divisions in the Thayer's/Iceland group seem
artificial to me, an order imposed by human beings to make sense of the
variation in this taxon. Yeah, I know, Thayer's and Iceland Gulls are
"diagnosably different" but like I said, does this matter to the birds?
If Thayer's and Iceland Gulls are mixing to the extent the variation in
the field suggests they are it seems unlikely, at least to me.

Robert Hughes
Chicago, Illinois

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland/Thayers Gull
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 12:08pm

>Yes, but if I understand the situation correctly, this range of
>variation found in Iceland Gulls is due to interbreeding with Thayer's
>Gulls. 

One idea (and please correct me someone if I am mis-stating the 
scenario) is that the variation in Kumlien's is due to past and possibly 
on-going interbreeding of the two. It seems that the two gene pools
mix as breeding colonies come into contact and that some of the mixing
may have occurred long ago. So Kumlien's may be carrying around the
genetic potential for dark or light wing-tips regardless of whether they
breed with a thayeri or a glaucoides. A neat bit of info would be to know 
at what frequency pale-winged birds produce dark-winged offspring
or even if they do at all. One assumes that a dark juv kumlien turns into 
a dark winged adult, but is there any data to base that assumption on?

I cannot explain the genetic basis of variation in wing-tip patterns
but as I was walking to work today I saw a flock of Pigeons and it 
occurred to me that variation in general is controlled by selection as 
much as genetics. If, as Robert Hughes said, Kumliens don't care 
about wing-tip melanism when it comes to breeding then it stands to 
reason that there is so much variation in that character since it does
not seem to be influenced by sexual selection. The fact that glaucoides
tend to white-winged, and thayeri dark-winged may simply be an 
accident of ancestry, or possibly a result of some other selective pressure
not effecting kumliens.

I think what may also be mis-leading here is the notion that
glaucoides-kumliens
and thayeri represent some evolutionary unit as either closely related species
or subspecies, and that they seem to vary clinally in pigmentation east to
west.
From the perspective of the winter range this seems to make sense, but as 
someone pointed out a while back on this forum such a nice linear cline does not
occur in the breeding range with some thayeri colonies further east than
kumlien's
and some north-south gradations as well. It is worth repeating that gull
distribution
is clumpy as any organism that breeds in large colonies is. It may be that
thayeri
is it's own evolutionary unit with it's own degree of variation and likewise for
glaucoides, such that kumliens is really a product of those two units of
variation
rather than some poorly defined intermediate group between two extremes.
And since we are talking about DNA it seems likely that the 2 units thayeri and
glaucoides would not combine in any simple linear manner.

Matt

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: 
From: Robert Hughes <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 12:23pm

Robert Hughes
Chicago, Illinois

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland/Thayers Gull
From: Robert Hughes <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 12:29pm

> I think what may also be mis-leading here is the notion that
> glaucoides-kumliens
>
> and thayeri represent some evolutionary unit as either closely related
> species
> or subspecies,

I don't know about an evolutionary unit but, based on what we see in
the field, maybe an interbreeding unit.

Robert Hughes
Chicago, Illinois

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland/Thayers Gull
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 12:33pm

At least one genetic study has been referred to in this forum in the
past that placed thayeri closer to glaucescens than to glaucoides/
kumlieni. In the case of the large gull complex interbreeding may
be as much, if not more a function of overlapping habits/habitat
preference between species as one of necessarily most recently
branching ancestry.

Phil

>I think what may also be mis-leading here is the notion that
glaucoides-kumliens
and thayeri represent some evolutionary unit as either closely related
species
or subspecies

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in
         Washington State
From: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 12:38pm

Ooops ... of course, that should be 160-161 degrees E (not W) ...

Phil

>Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:12:51 -0500
>To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>From: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in Washington State
>
>
>It looks like Redwing (Turdus iliacus) breeds as far eastward in Siberia
>as about 160-161 degrees W, north of the Arctic Circle, just east of the
>lower Kolyma River. This is about 800 miles from Gambell, the closest
>point of USA land.

==================================
Phil Davis      Davidsonville, Maryland     USA
                 mailto:PDavis(AT)ix.netcom.com
==================================

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: sea-eagle in B.C.
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 3:06pm

HI:
 Bill Clark has ided the sea-eagle in B.C. as a juvenile Steller's
Sea-Eagle. I'll ask him about hybrids though!

--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: sea-eagle in B.C.
From: David Allinson <passerine(AT)SHAW.CA>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 3:46pm

I would appreciate his comments as to 'why'...as much as I and many others
here would like to say yes to that ID, there is enough to suggest otherwise
and some 'problems' with its field marks. Unfortunately, this is not a
slam-dunk ID and most of literature is lacking on this particular plumage!
Note a few top BC birders who have seen this species in their travels around
world have viewed the video and cannot come to that conclusion, but we would
all love to be proven wrong! I have utmost respect for Mr Clark's work on
raptors...
Please ask him to e-mail me privately -- passerine(AT)shaw.ca
Thanks,
David Allinson
Victoria, BC

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian Paulsen
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 2:07 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: sea-eagle in B.C.

HI:
 Bill Clark has ided the sea-eagle in B.C. as a juvenile Steller's
Sea-Eagle. I'll ask him about hybrids though!

--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Dark Iceland/Thayers Gull
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 22 Dec 2004 4:25pm

Greetings all

What a wonderful and wholly unanswerable question at this time. What we need is
to get researchers to the breeding areas, get lots of genetic samples, and color
 band a bunch of birds, too.

Now, I posted this a year or so ago, but it bears repeating. Every so often, at
specific places in WA, you can see large groups of Thayer's that are almost pure
 ad THGU. In these groups, about 1% show wingtips concolorous with the back.
About 15%-30% (this is based on recollections while sitting in my office-- but
suffice to say, it wasn't a small number) showed wingtips that were not as black
 as those of a Herring, but showed some degree of grayness (but were darker than
 mantle). These birds were otherwise remarkably homogeneous in head pattern,
size, mantle color. Therefore,it seems to me that Thayer's Gulls are also quite
variable (at least adults in the PacNW). I imagine that a similar variability
exists in imms... remember a bird from CO two to three years ago that was a pale
 Thayer's (in Larimer Co during that county's GBB, SB, LBB, GW year)? I think it
 showed up as a photoquiz bird somewhere recently.

And I can feel your pain on Thayers/Kumleins/Iceland. We've a similar issue with
 Western/GW/Glaucous.

Best Wishes
Steven Mlodinow

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in
         Washington State
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 5:56pm

Angus Wilson wrote:>Presumably these eastern birds are pretty long-distance
> migrants (next Q:  where do they winter? Iran?) and so might be
> considered very good candidates for vagrancy.<

Redwings are strong fliers with great potential for vagrancy. There is f.i.
this old case from the exceptional cold winter of 1963 when a Redwing
ringed (banded) on 4.1 in England landed three days later in mid-Atlantic
some 2300 km's to the west. Although this bird was aided by a strong
easterly wind it had to withstand the bitter cold at the same time. Yes,
they do winter in Iran as well but there is more to it. Some Redwings ringed
in Western Europe have been found the next winter far to the SE between the
Black and Caspian Sea. I am in fact the proud record holder of a bird I
ringed near The Hague, The Netherlands which was shot the next winter in
Iran on the south shore of the Caspian. I doubt that wintering one winter
SW-wards and the next to the SE is a deliberate act although the rather
frequent occurrence of this phenomenon makes you wonder! Still I believe it
is a drift pattern caused by the prevailing tail-wind at the time of
migration.
The Icelandic race coburni migrates in a narrow band SW towards France. At
least that is what the recoveries tell us so far but where would a bird end
when, instead of flying 2,500 km's to the SE in three days as one bird did,
it had flown SW instead? Equally a bird belonging to the race iliacus on a
northerly route could, I believe, reach America both from the west as well
as from the east, providing of course it is pushed by a strong tail-wind.
Norman

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: RFI:  Cackling vs. Canada Again.
From: Bruce Deuel <BDEUEL(AT)DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 23 Dec 2004 9:42am

I stand corrected.  I've had no personal experience with Richardson's,
and for a long time believed they were basically pale minima.  Then, I
learned that they were larger than minima, and now I learn that not all
are so.  However, I don't believe that the New Mexico bird is a
candidate for that taxon, and even if it were, that would make the bird
in question a Cackling Goose, which I still believe it to be.

I was also told in a private message that the New Mexico bird, contrary
to what appears in the photos, was felt by most observers who saw it to
be larger than the Ross's Goose.  This complicates things, but I believe
parvipes would appear much larger than a Ross's, and that if the bird in
question is not minima, then it is taverneri, and hence still a Cackling
Goose.

Cheers,

Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff/Redding
bdeuel(AT)dfg.ca.gov

>>> "Michael L. P. Retter" <mlretter(AT)YAHOO.COM> 12/20/2004 5:43:59 PM
>>>
> In the example shown, the bird is no bigger than,
> and appears smaller than, a Ross's Goose.  No
> white-cheeked goose taxon is smaller than Ross's
> Goose except minima.  Case closed.

I disagree.  I routinely see Richardson's Geese that
are equal in size to Ross's Geese, and I have seen a
few that appear smaller.

I cannot stress enough how small some B. h. hutchinsii
are.

This one is hardly larger than the pintails it is
swimming with and is much smaller than the
White-fronted Geese behind it:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/detail?.dir=56b4&.dnm=0150.jpg&.src=ph

There is currently a flock of about 500 Richardson's
Geese at a local lake near me, and many are the same
size as Mallards.  In fact, when sleeping on the ice,
they are not so easy to pick out of the Mallard
flocks.

For what it's worth, I did a sketch of what I think of
as a typical B. h. hutchinsii in structure.  It may be
viewed here:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/detail?.dir=ec68&.dnm=79cd.jpg&.src=ph

=====
========================
Michael L. P. Retter
Bloomington-Normal
McLean Co, Illinois
mlretter AT yahoo.com
309.824.7317
========================

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: The ARIZONA goose
From: Bruce Deuel <BDEUEL(AT)DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 23 Dec 2004 10:23am

My apologies.  I referred to the goose we've been discussing as from New
Mexico, rather than Arizona, as is the actual case.

I mentioned in my last post that a private correspondent had told me
all observers thought this bird was larger than the Ross's Goose.  I
just got another post from a person who states he and many others
definitely felt the bird was "of very similar size" to the Ross's
Goose.

Size aside, there is the question of the bird's bill shape.  This
roman-nosed look is something I've seen in several internet photos of
small "white-cheeked" geese.  Most birds that have it seem to be
immatures, as the Arizona bird is.  I do not feel this bill shape is
restricted to any particular taxon, and that it is not the "normal"
shape.  It's too bad these questions didn't come up back in the 70s and
80s when I was banding 500 minima a year!

Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Redding, CA

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Potential American/Eurasian Wigeon Hybrid
From: Steve Collins <dcollins(AT)UFL.EDU>
Date: 23 Dec 2004 2:50pm

A weird Wigeon has been at the Hague Dairy in Alachua County, FL for 2
days now.  It was found by Pat Burns and Phil Laipis on Wednesday, and
today I took photos of the bird.  It seems to have characteristics of
both American and Eurasian Wigeon.

Photos can be found here:
http://plaza.ufl.edu/dcollins/wigeon/

Please let me know what you think!

Cheers,
Steve Collins
Gainesville, FL

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: RFI: a western-type Solitary Vireo in Texas
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 24 Dec 2004 6:41am

Dear all,
Yesterday we thought we'd re-found the Plumbeous Vireo  at Rosehill
Cemetery, Corpus Christi from late October:
http://www.martinreid.com/plumbeous.html
- but in the field the bird looked a bit greener in places, and seemed more
active to me.  The photos confirm that it's not the same individual, and
seem to confirm the suspicion I had that it is a Cassin Vireo - I'd
appreciate any thoughts on this bird; it is at the bottom of this page
showing a Masked Duck and other goodies the same day:
http://www.martinreid.com/maskedduck.html
Happy Hols,
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Comments on Bill Attitude in Arctic Loon >G.
         arctica subs.<
From: Jim Barton <redwingatfp1986(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 24 Dec 2004 3:45pm

Hello. I received a very interesting private reply to my query on bill
attitude in the Arctic Loon of Alaska >G.arctica.viridigularis< and
Black-throated Diver, the nominate race, >G.a.arctica<.   I have the
author's permission to share his thinking with this list.

I posted my query in response to this message to ID Frontiers from Julian
Hough (quoted in part)--

"The only point of difference between Arctic vs Black-throated I noticed in
my limited observation time [in Nome, Alaska], was that the Arctic Loons
tended to swim with their bills tilted slightly upward, like a Red-throated.
This was contrary to my belief that Black-throated Divers are said to swim
with their bills horizontally, a feature used to separate them from distant
Red-throats (at least that was what I was told growing up!)"

Here's the to my query sent me by Nial Moores,who will identify himself in
due course.

"Dear Jim,

Was browsing the id frontiers mailings and came across your question about
bill position in Arctic Loon Gavia arctica viridigularis.  Hope you don't
mind me posting you direct, as am not a member of the group. The Arctic
Loons that I have seen in Japan and Korea (several hundreds over the past 14
winters of living in the region) typically do hold the bill above the
horizontal.  Some of these individuals quite likely originate from Northern
Alaska (based on satellite tracked Red-throated and White-billed Loons) as
well as northern Siberia: all are presumed to be viridigularis on range (and
range alone).    The typical position of the bill is indeed noticeably
different to most ''Black-throated Diver" that I used to see in the UK and
western Europe, which typically do hold the bill at or near the horizontal.
This bill position of  Arctic Loons in this region as suggested above is
also described in at least one or two Japanese field guides, as is the more
horizontal position of European birds in European field guides.  It
therefore might well turn out to be a good (supporting) identification
feature. At this stage, I would imagine it requires rather more detailed
observations throughout the respective ranges to determine whether some
birds hold the bill "atypically". Personally, having noted it as a good
supporting character for e.g. picking out Arctics from Pacifics, I have not
invested the necessary time and effort to consistently record this, to see
if it is invariable or just typical.  Your mail is a good incentive to try
to spend a minute each time from now on to make better notes (thanks): hope
it encourages others to do likewise.

With best wishes and birding,

Nial Moores
Birds Korea
Http://www.birdskorea.org
(Korean proact representatives)

Nial Moores

Birds Korea: The national and international network dedicated to the
conservation
of birds and their habitats.

Http://www.birdskorea.org"

PLEASE NOTE-- Nial subsequently sent me two photos of an Arctic
 >viridigularis< by email.  Can I safely forward his second message to this
list with the jpegs attached?

Nial can be reached at spoonbillkorea(AT)yahoo.com

I have urged him to join the list.   Would you do likewise?

Yours,

Jim Barton
redwingatfp1986(AT)comcast.net
Cambridge, MA
US Coordinator, Proact
campaigning for birds and their habitats
before it's too late
www.proact-campaigns.net

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Canada Goose(s)
From: Dick Wood <rwood238(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 24 Dec 2004 4:04pm

Merry Christmas to all.

I have this compelling desire to try and understand how to identify the
different "Canada Gooses"

It is my understanding that the recent AOU split the Canada Goose (Branta
canadensis) into two species: Canada Goose (B. canadensis) and Cackling
Goose (Branta hutchinsii). How am I doing so far?

The AOU partitioned the subspecies, and the generally accepted subspecies
are:

CANADA GOOSE (Branta canadensis):
canadensis [Atlantic]
interior [Interior]
maxima [Giant]
moffitti [Moffit's]
parvipes [part of 'Lesser complex']
fulva [Vancouver] and,
occidentalis [Dusky].

CACKLING GOOSE (Branta hutchinsii):
hutchinsii [Richardson's]
asiatica [Bering (extinct)]
leucopareia [Aleutian]
taverneri [other part of 'Lesser complex'] and,
minima

Are there any more to consider?

I am thinking (very simplistic) of dichotomous (branching) method which help
get to me closer to identifying the gooses.

An example would be:

Is the goose big or small?

BIG GOOSE
Dark breast or pale breast?

DARK BREAST
Short bill or long bill

LONG BILL
Wide white chin strap or narrow?

Etc.

I hope someone with more experience than I, can make a "system" for goose
ID.

And, of course, I will never be able to look at a "Canada Goose" the same
way again.

I understand that many, many, hours of research have gone into getting us
where we are today, to be able to say there are 12 subspecies of old Branta
canadensis.

This note is done in a humorous vein, but the same type of system used to
help me and many children tell one tree from another.

Cheers and Merry Christmas.

Dick Wood
Tucson, AZ
4902 West Placita
de los Vientos
Tucson, AZ  85745
rwood238(AT)comcast.net
N32-16'-53.5"   W111-04'-22.5"

One shouldn't argue with a fool, people watching will have trouble
distinguishing between the two.         -unknown

Searching:
BIGSBY, BROPHY, CAVANAUGH, COLE, CONKLIN, COVENHAVEN, CRAMER, CUMMINGS,
EVANS, GASTON, HIER (HYER), KEENAN, LITTLE, NILES, POTTER, SAUNDERS,
SKINNER, SMITH, VAN HORN, VINCENT, WOOD

The Virtual Birder

ID-FRONTIERS for December 19-25, 2004

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Last Updated: Saturday, October 13, 2007 1:52pm MT

The Virtual Birder

ID-FRONTIERS for December 19-25, 2004

Send feedback on these pages to: BMail@greatblue.com B-Mail Message Content Disclaimer Layout Copyright © 1999-2001 Great Blue Media Works Last Updated: Saturday, October 13, 2007 1:52pm MT

Send feedback on these pages to: BMail@greatblue.com
B-Mail Message Content Disclaimer
Layout Copyright © 1999-2001 Great Blue Media Works
Last Updated: Saturday, October 13, 2007 1:52pm MT