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ID-FRONTIERS for December 26-31, 2004
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Re: Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in
Washington State | Peter W. Post | Sun, 26 Dec 2004 | 4:21pm |
| Re: Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in
Washington State | wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU | Sun, 26 Dec 2004 | 7:08pm |
| Date of the NY Red-wing | Peter W. Post | Sun, 26 Dec 2004 | 7:13pm |
| SBGU vs HEGUxGWGU | SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM | Sun, 26 Dec 2004 | 9:34pm |
| Re: Redwing >T. iliacus< in Mass. October 1986;
subspecies? | Ball | Mon, 27 Dec 2004 | 10:18am |
| Variability in Nelson's gull? | Hector Galbraith | Tue, 28 Dec 2004 | 7:00am |
| Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada) | The Holdens | Tue, 28 Dec 2004 | 4:32pm |
| Re: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada) | Phillip Pickering | Tue, 28 Dec 2004 | 5:30pm |
| Re: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada) | Dick Newell | Tue, 28 Dec 2004 | 5:33pm |
| Re: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada) | Phillip Pickering | Tue, 28 Dec 2004 | 10:33pm |
| FW: GBBG [from Frode Falkenberg] | Dick Newell | Wed, 29 Dec 2004 | 5:10am |
| Ad: Re: Redwing >T. iliacus< in Mass.
October 1986; subspecies? | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8 | Wed, 29 Dec 2004 | 5:16am |
| Re: FW: GBBG [from Frode Falkenberg] | Phillip Pickering | Wed, 29 Dec 2004 | 9:30am |
| Re: FW: GBBG [from Frode Falkenberg] | Dick Newell | Wed, 29 Dec 2004 | 10:18am |
| Re: FW: GBBG | Peter Adriaens | Wed, 29 Dec 2004 | 11:34pm |
| Re: FW: GBBG [from Frode Falkenberg] | Jonathan Simms | Wed, 29 Dec 2004 | 11:36pm |
| Re: FW: GBBG [from Frode Falkenberg] | Phillip Pickering | Wed, 29 Dec 2004 | 11:49pm |
| RE : Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario
(Canada) | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierr | Thu, 30 Dec 2004 | 2:12am |
| Re: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada) | Phillip Pickering | Thu, 30 Dec 2004 | 8:56am |
| Re: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada) | Bruce Mactavish | Thu, 30 Dec 2004 | 1:16pm |
| RE : Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario
(Canada) | Peter Adriaens | Thu, 30 Dec 2004 | 1:24pm |
| New Photos of the Binbrook Gull | The Holdens | Thu, 30 Dec 2004 | 6:21pm |
| Re: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull | Phillip Pickering | Thu, 30 Dec 2004 | 8:08pm |
| Re: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull | Cliff and Lisa Weiss | Thu, 30 Dec 2004 | 9:24pm |
| Re: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull | Dick Newell | Fri, 31 Dec 2004 | 2:25am |
| Re: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull | Bert-Jan Luijendijk | Fri, 31 Dec 2004 | 8:07am |
| Re: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull | Phillip Pickering | Fri, 31 Dec 2004 | 12:09pm |
| PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay | Mike Patterson | Fri, 31 Dec 2004 | 1:03pm |
| Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay | Mike Patterson | Fri, 31 Dec 2004 | 1:46pm |
| Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay | Lethaby, Nick | Fri, 31 Dec 2004 | 3:31pm |
| Tricky gull in Rochester, New Hampshire 12/30/04. | James P. Smith | Fri, 31 Dec 2004 | 8:52pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in
Washington State
From: "Peter W. Post" <pwpost(AT)NYC.RR.COM>
Date: 26 Dec 2004 4:21pm
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
------ Forwarded Message
From: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Reply-To: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:12:51 -0500
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in Washington Stat=
e
Neither the AOU (1998) nor Clement (2000) list any Alaskan records. Clement
indicates that the 1959 New York record was often considered by some to be =
a
possible escapee.
------------------------------
The 1979 New York Red-wing record from Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge was only
considered a possible escape by =B3some=B2 because the refuge is adjacent to
JF=
K
airport, a port of entry for many shipments of cage-birds. This record
originally considered hypothetical was accepted as a valid wild bird by the
New York State Avian Records Committee (NYSARC) in their 1981 report
(Kingbird 31:202,1981).
The bird was extremely skittish, never allowing a close approach, and lacke=
d
the frayed feathers, including the tail, characteristic of recently caged
birds. It also appeared in February during a cold snap. It is well known
that Red-wings are prone to move south in winter following such severe
weather.
In my opinion there is a tendency to immediately dismiss such birds as
escapes and not to even report them. This deprives researchers the
opportunity to detect patterns of occurrence and distribution that may shed
light on the validity of future occurrences.
In the days of slow films, no big lenses and no digital cameras, I managed
to get some shots with a film camera attached to my Bal Scope. These are th=
e
only photos that were taken of the bird. Ian Nisbet, whom had recently
emigrated from Britain, after viewing my photos, remarked the bird was a
dark individual, which would indicate the Icelandic race (T. i. Coburni).
This thread has prompted me to review these slides, if I can find them!
Peter W. Post
New York City
pwpost(AT)nyc.rr.com
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Q about Redwing (Turdus iliacus) in
Washington State
From: wilsoa02(AT)MED.NYU.EDU
Date: 26 Dec 2004 7:08pm
I realize this is not an ID topic per se, but to follow up on Peter Post's
message on the Redwing (Turdus iliacus) at Jamiaca Bay, New York, there seems
to be some confusion about the dates. I believe all refer to one and the same
bird and readers should not get the impression this is a recurring vagrant to
the state!
According to John Bull (1976 Birds of New York State), the Redwing was
discovered by Refuge manager H. Johnson and identified by C. Young. The dates
Bull gives are 20-24 Feb. 1959 [not 1979 as indicated in Peter's post]. The
original publication of the report is given as Wilson Bulletin 1959 Vol. 71:
382-383. As originally mentioned by Phil David, doubt was cast (by Bull?) about
the origins of the bird given it proximity to the airport and the fact that it
was a first North American record. Bull cites a Black-throated Thrush (6 March
1968) and a Brambling (11 Feb 1965) seen at the airport as supportive evidence
of escape Palearctic species. I would guess the latter two are related to
shipments of birds from China?
As Peter correctly states, the New York State Avian Records Committee accepted
Redwing [and coincidentally also Fieldfare (T. pilaris)] to the NY list in its
1981 Annual Report (Kingbird 31(4): 202-211). The Committee states that it "can
find no basis for the allegation that this bird escaped from captivity. It is a
common breeder and long distance migrant in Iceland, and has strayed to the New
World on at least one subsequent occasion (American Birds 35: 147 1981)".
Unfortunately the NYSARC Report lists this sighting as 1954!! And credits the
Wilson Bulletin note as 1974! I believe there was quite a twitch for this bird
(400+ observers) and I'd appreciate hearing from some of you so that we can
clarify the date once and for all. NYSARC was unable to obtain photographic
documentation for its archive and although many years later, would of course
greatly appreciate copies of photos or stills captured from cinefilm.
Cheers, Angus Wilson
New York City
>
> The 1979 New York Red-wing record from Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge was only
> considered a possible escape by ³some² because the refuge is adjacent to JFK
> airport, a port of entry for many shipments of cage-birds. This record
> originally considered hypothetical was accepted as a valid wild bird by the
> New York State Avian Records Committee (NYSARC) in their 1981 report
> (Kingbird 31:202,1981).
>
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Date of the NY Red-wing
From: "Peter W. Post" <pwpost(AT)NYC.RR.COM>
Date: 26 Dec 2004 7:13pm
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
The year the Red-wing was seen at Jamaica Bay was 1959. Sorry for the typo.
Peter W. Post
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: SBGU vs HEGUxGWGU
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 26 Dec 2004 9:34pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings All
I hate to bring up a gull topic. I really, really do.
Kevin Aanerud, Jessie Barry, and I had a bird a couple weeks back that is a
very strong candidate for a 1st winter SBGU. These really should occur in some
numbers (ie, at least a couple per year) in the Pac NW given that adults are
annual (the ratio of imm:ad GLGU is about 50:1 for instance).
As I review photos of 1st winter SBGUs, it seems that virtually every last
one could potentially be "explained" by a combo of HEGU and GWGU.
Even the Thayer's like wing pattern, the dots at the end of the primaries in
flight, etc could all possibly occur in this hybrid combo. Our bird had an
entirely dark brown tail, without any barring on even the outer webs of the
outer
rectrices. Still, it seems that this could possibly occur in HEGUxGWGU.
Thoughts?
I got lots of video and will soon have capability of actually turning stuff
into jpgs, but for the time being, can't do it.
Best Wishes
Steven Mlodinow
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Redwing >T. iliacus< in Mass. October 1986;
subspecies?
From: Ball <nigelball(AT)BAINBRIDGE.NET>
Date: 27 Dec 2004 10:18am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings,
I haven't had the advantage of seeing the Olympia bird, but I have been to
Iceland three times in the last 18 months. My first reaction to the Olympia
Redwing pictures was that the underside was very white, and that the dark
markings were fewer than I remember. Birds of the Western Palearctic volume
V states:
"T. i. coburni from Iceland and Faroes differs from nominate iliacus in
slightly larger size (see measurements), slightly darker upperparts, and in
particular in darker underparts: black streaks on throat heavier; breast,
sides of belly, flanks and under tail-coverts washed more extensively with
olive-brown; brown marks on chest tend to merge together and extend further
down to breast and sides of belly; sides of head, chest, and under
tail-coverts strongly tinged buff; also, leg and foot darker..."
Note: More extensive dark markings, background tinged olive-brown/buff.
Some of these features are shown on this Icelandic Redwing, here:
http://www.hi.is/~yannk/myndir/isl.fuglar/hh_throstur.jpg
(Incidentally, this, http://www.hi.is/~yannk/indexeng.html, is an excellent
website)
Again, without having seen the bird, I would like to suggest that the
initial evidence points towards Asian origin for the Olympia Redwing.
Yours provocatively,
Nigel Ball
nigelball(AT)bainbridge.net
Bainbridge Island
Washington
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jim Barton
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:02 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Redwing >T. iliacus< in Mass. October 1986;
subspecies?
Hello. I note Angus Wilson's recent comments on Redwing subspecies
with interest. I recorded a Redwing T. iliacus at the Fresh Pond
Reservation in Cambridge, Mass. in late October, 1986. Hence my email
address- "atfp1986".
The bird was present for three days, and was subsequently well seen by
two other people. One was a very well known, very experienced and very
conservative birder; however, the local expert committee trashed the bird.
I use that verb advisedly.
Angus and others-- I would be very interested in knowing how one would
determine whether a Redwing is the Icelandic subspecies T.i.coburni.
What was most striking about the Fresh Pond bird was its face.
Initially, all I saw was its head and a small part of its breast. The bold
facial pattern and streaked breast were unlike those of any North American
bird I knew of, except Louisiana Waterthrush Seiurus motacilla, which has a
long, very prominent white supercilium and a white submoustachial stripe.
I was carrying a rather inadequate European field guide, which I had
studied, and which, if anything, oversimplifed and thus dramatized Redwing
facial features. I knew almost instantly what the bird had to be. I
checked the guide. Fairly shortly, the bird gave me a look at its flanks.
The guide showed them as pink. I saw them as burnt orange-red. Then the
bird buried itself in the foliage. I did not have time to wait for it to
reappear. A second observer saw the bird perched and in flight the
following morning. A third observer saw the bird in flight the following
day.
Yours,
Jim Barton
redwingatfp1986(AT)comcast.net
Cambridge, MA
US Coordinator, Proact
campaigning for birds and their habitats
before it's too late
www.proact-campaigns.net
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Variability in Nelson's gull?
From: Hector Galbraith <hg1(AT)SVCABLE.NET>
Date: 28 Dec 2004 7:00am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
On the New Hampshire coast a couple of days ago a friend and I found
what at first glance I took to be a 1st winter glaucous gull. However,
closer scrutiny made me question that ID. It was close to, or identical
in size, to the great black backs that accompanied it and noticeably
larger than the herrings and icelands that were also there. Its overall
body coloring was close to that of 1st winter icelands or glaucs. Its
bill was large and sharply two-toned (as in 1st winter glaucs). So far
so good for a glaucous! However, its tertials were solid dark grey with
paler edging, but no barring. Also, its primaries were a darker shade
than (and contrasted with) the mantle, wing coverts, and overall body
color. When it flew it had a coffee colored terminal band on its tail.
Here is my question: how variable are Nelson's? The only good photos
that I have seen of this cross shows birds that are pretty dark
(reflecting the HG side of their parentage?). Do some Nelson's come
closer to the Glaucus side in their appearance?
Hector Galbraith PhD
Galbraith Environmental Sciences LLC
837 Camp Arden Rd., Dummerston, VT05301
802 365 9119 (phone)
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada)
From: The Holdens <holdens(AT)MOUNTAINCABLE.NET>
Date: 28 Dec 2004 4:32pm
Birders,
My father and I noticed a strange gull roosting in a field near our house on
December 24th, 2004. I managed to get close to the
bird, and photographed it from most angles. I have uploaded the photographs to
my website:
http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/
and the direct link to the photographs is here:
http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGUll.htm
I've added some addition written information at the bottom of the page. We would
greatly appreciate all comments about the
identification of this gull! As there has been a few different views on what it
is.
Happy Holidays, and good gulling!
Brandon and Eric Holden
Hamilton, Ontario
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada)
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 28 Dec 2004 5:30pm
> http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGUll.htm
Wow, beautiful gull. This is based only on photo study, but
almost everything looks great for argentatus to me. Head/bill shape,
tail pattern, breast/belly streaking, coarse Thayer's-like covert
checkering, amount of scap molt for date, and 2nd-gen scap
pattern all seem typical. Inner primary window appears to
lack appropriate contrast, but perhaps that is the lighting.
Also nicely photographed double-banded smithsonianus :)
Looking forward to European comments.
Cheers,
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada)
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 28 Dec 2004 5:33pm
Re: http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGUll.htm
I am not sure whether the Greater Black-backed Gulls that we get here in the
UK are the same thing as you get in Canada (apparently American ones can
have smith-like mtDNA), but this looks like a small (female?) GBBG to me -
these can be smaller than a large male smith. The only point that concerns
me is the lack of any pale inner webs to the inner primaries - but then I am
not sure I understand variability in GBBG anyway. I am not tempted to go YLG
or hybrid on this one.
I probably have some better pix of 1st winter GBBG, but here is one online
that is similar:
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=495
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada)
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 28 Dec 2004 10:33pm
>http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGUll.htm
Given the flock makeup smithsonianus x GBBG is an obvious
possibility, but it looks strange to me for a pure GBBG. The
flat crown, squared-off hind crown with the angle well above
the eye, and fairly straight bill with gentle culmen downcurve
seem more Herring-like. The head also seems quite small in
proportion to the body, exceptionally so for GBBG. In fact
it almost seems misproportioned to me, further suggesting a
hybrid on 2nd and 3rd look.
With the exception of the bill shape that is all subjective I
know, but worth considering given the far small-end size
for GBBG.
Cheers,
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: FW: GBBG [from Frode Falkenberg]
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 29 Dec 2004 5:10am
I have been asked to forward the following:
------ Forwarded Message
From: Frode Falkenberg <Frode.Falkenberg(AT)student.uib.no>
I agree with Dick on this bird. Most of the plumage features and general
proportions suggest GBBG, but with some slightly odd characters for a
European
(or at least Norwegian) GBBG. Wing coverts, scaps and mantle, eye mask,
tail,
upper- and undertail coverts all fit GBBG well. Phil writes that the head
and
bill shape suggest HEGU. I would say these actually fit GBBG perfectly - at
least a finer bird/female. Have a look at three juvs and their head
proportions
here (flat forehead/crown, squared off hind crown):
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/gbbg/juv_01.php
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/gbbg/juv_02.php
What puzzles me a bit is the extensively dark underwing coverts, lack of
bright
window on inner primaries and slightly "unfringed" tertials (which is partly
caused by abrasion on the Ontario bird?).
More GBBG's at (with a couple of similar 1st winters):
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ind_gbbg.php
All the best,
Frode Falkenberg
University of Bergen
Department of Biology
Allégaten 41
5007 Bergen
URL: http://cyberbirding.uib.no/
Phone: +4793440647
------ End of Forwarded Message
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Ad: Re: Redwing >T. iliacus< in Mass.
October 1986; subspecies?
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Olav_Tveit?= <Bjorn.Olav.Tveit(AT)GYLDENDAL.NO>
Date: 29 Dec 2004 5:16am
It could be worth mentioning that radar studies carried out by M. T. Myres
(1964), indicated that nominate redwings from Scandinavia en route to The
British Isles in fall, overshoot Scotland on a regular basis. The birds fly
out into the Atlantic ocean with a W heading, but then reorient towards SE,
usually after dawn. With several million redwings heading W into the
Atlantic Ocean every fall, it is perhaps not all that surprising to find
that a few might fail to reorient and eventually reach the Americas.
Anyway, based on this, I would think that Scandinavian redwings are at
least as likely candidates for westward vagrancy into North America as
Islandic birds.
Reference:
Myres, M. T. 1964. Dawn Ascent and re-orientation of Scandinavian thrushes
(Turdus spp.) migrating at night over the northeastern Atlantic Ocean in
autumn. Ibis 106.
Best regards,
Bjorn Olav Tveit
Oslo, Norway
Ball
<nigelball@BAINBR
IDGE.NET> Til
Sendt av: NBHC
ID-FRONTIERS BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Frontiers of cc
Field
Identification
<BIRDWG01@LISTSER
V.ARIZONA.EDU>
Emne
27.12.2004 18:07 Re: [BIRDWG01] Redwing >T. iliacus<
in Mass. October 1986; subspecies?
Vennligst send
svar til
Ball
<nigelball@BAINBR
IDGE.NET>
Greetings,
I haven't had the advantage of seeing the Olympia bird, but I have been to
Iceland three times in the last 18 months. My first reaction to the Olympia
Redwing pictures was that the underside was very white, and that the dark
markings were fewer than I remember. Birds of the Western Palearctic volume
V states:
"T. i. coburni from Iceland and Faroes differs from nominate iliacus in
slightly larger size (see measurements), slightly darker upperparts, and in
particular in darker underparts: black streaks on throat heavier; breast,
sides of belly, flanks and under tail-coverts washed more extensively with
olive-brown; brown marks on chest tend to merge together and extend further
down to breast and sides of belly; sides of head, chest, and under
tail-coverts strongly tinged buff; also, leg and foot darker..."
Note: More extensive dark markings, background tinged olive-brown/buff.
Some of these features are shown on this Icelandic Redwing, here:
http://www.hi.is/~yannk/myndir/isl.fuglar/hh_throstur.jpg
(Incidentally, this, http://www.hi.is/~yannk/indexeng.html, is an excellent
website)
Again, without having seen the bird, I would like to suggest that the
initial evidence points towards Asian origin for the Olympia Redwing.
Yours provocatively,
Nigel Ball
nigelball(AT)bainbridge.net
Bainbridge Island
Washington
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jim Barton
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:02 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Redwing >T. iliacus< in Mass. October 1986;
subspecies?
Hello. I note Angus Wilson's recent comments on Redwing
subspecies with interest. I recorded a Redwing T. iliacus at the
Fresh Pond Reservation in Cambridge, Mass. in late October, 1986.
Hence my email address- "atfp1986".
The bird was present for three days, and was subsequently well
seen by two other people. One was a very well known, very
experienced and very conservative birder; however, the local expert
committee trashed the bird. I use that verb advisedly.
Angus and others-- I would be very interested in knowing how one
would determine whether a Redwing is the Icelandic subspecies
T.i.coburni.
What was most striking about the Fresh Pond bird was its face.
Initially, all I saw was its head and a small part of its breast.
The bold facial pattern and streaked breast were unlike those of any
North American bird I knew of, except Louisiana Waterthrush Seiurus
motacilla, which has a long, very prominent white supercilium and a
white submoustachial stripe. I was carrying a rather inadequate
European field guide, which I had studied, and which, if anything,
oversimplifed and thus dramatized Redwing facial features. I knew
almost instantly what the bird had to be. I checked the guide.
Fairly shortly, the bird gave me a look at its flanks. The guide
showed them as pink. I saw them as burnt orange-red. Then the bird
buried itself in the foliage. I did not have time to wait for it to
reappear. A second observer saw the bird perched and in flight the
following morning. A third observer saw the bird in flight the
following day.
Yours,
Jim Barton
redwingatfp1986(AT)comcast.net
Cambridge, MA
US Coordinator, Proact
campaigning for birds and their habitats
before it's too late
www.proact-campaigns.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: FW: GBBG [from Frode Falkenberg]
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 29 Dec 2004 9:30am
I don't mean to question what anyone is suggesting based on
their experience, but respectfully IMO none of the posted GBBG
show a head or bill shape like the Ontario bird. All have more
of a noticeable central crown peak, with the hind-crown
angling downward most steeply much closer to eye level (in this
case the difference appears to be beyond the normal range of
variation due to posture - an actual difference in skull shape).
Also all of them are heavier-billed and with more gonydeal angle
and a much steeper culmen downcurve.
Admittedly those birds do range closer in proportions to the
Ontario bird, but the latter still appears subtly smaller-headed to
me, perhaps due to the flatter crown (would a tiny female GBBG
normally be expected to show a much flatter crown than a male?)
If there is a photo on the internet of such a small, flat-crowned,
straight-billed, GBBG that also looks typical in plumage aspects
I have yet to see it, and I have searched diligently this past year.
Cheers,
Phil
>I have been asked to forward the following:
------ Forwarded Message
From: Frode Falkenberg <Frode.Falkenberg(AT)student.uib.no>
I agree with Dick on this bird. Most of the plumage features and general
proportions suggest GBBG, but with some slightly odd characters for a
European
(or at least Norwegian) GBBG. Wing coverts, scaps and mantle, eye mask,
tail,
upper- and undertail coverts all fit GBBG well. Phil writes that the head
and
bill shape suggest HEGU. I would say these actually fit GBBG perfectly - at
least a finer bird/female. Have a look at three juvs and their head
proportions
here (flat forehead/crown, squared off hind crown):
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/gbbg/juv_01.php
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/gbbg/juv_02.php
What puzzles me a bit is the extensively dark underwing coverts, lack of
bright
window on inner primaries and slightly "unfringed" tertials (which is partly
caused by abrasion on the Ontario bird?).
More GBBG's at (with a couple of similar 1st winters):
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ind_gbbg.php
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: FW: GBBG [from Frode Falkenberg]
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 29 Dec 2004 10:18am
re: http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGUll.htm
Well, despite Phil Pickering's comments, I still think this gull looks
structurally and holistically more like GBBG than anything else. However,
given the list of plumage concerns, pointed out by Frode, including the lack
of a primary window, solid dark under wing coverts and rather solid
tertials, I am wondering whether all of these could be answered by Lesser
Black-backed Gull? This bird here can match all of the plumage features
rather well:
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=486
However, the Ontario bird has a rather odd structure for LBBG imho: it is
dumpy, short-winged, a relatively heavy bill and a head-shape that looks
more GBBG than LBBG to me - but being a gull, I could quite believe that a
(large male?) LBBG could take on this appearance.
Dick
Cambridge, UK
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: FW: GBBG
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 29 Dec 2004 11:34pm
> I am wondering whether all of these could be answered by Lesser
> Black-backed Gull? This bird here can match all of the plumage features
> rather well:
> http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=486
>
> However, the Ontario bird has a rather odd structure for LBBG imho: it is
> dumpy, short-winged, a relatively heavy bill and a head-shape that looks
> more GBBG than LBBG to me - but being a gull, I could quite believe that a
> (large male?) LBBG could take on this appearance.
> Dick
> Cambridge, UK
>
Hi Dick,
I think Lesser Black-backed Gull is definitely out, because of the pattern
of the greater coverts (very white, with only three dark bars) and the
remaining juvenile (rear) scapulars (with broad pale notches along the
sides, leaving an almost anchor-shaped dark brown centre, just as in
juvenile GBBGull). In addition, the bulky structure would be odd, too --
as you say.
Regards,
Peter
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: FW: GBBG [from Frode Falkenberg]
From: Jonathan Simms <jaeger77(AT)T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: 29 Dec 2004 11:36pm
Regarding the Binbrook Mystery Gull:
With the exception of the size of this bird, and the change in patterning of
the greater secondary coverts (from checkered to solid brown) this bird
looks very much as a Yellow-legged Gull. But of course we cannot ignore
these features and thus YLGU is almost certainly eliminated as a result.
Has anyone considered the possibility of AMHGxGBBG hybrid (that is, Larus
smithsonianus x L. marinus)? Although I admit to never having knowingly seen
one in my 23 or so years birding in the Great Lakes I understand from the
literature that they are not so rare. Maybe I have skimmed over too many of
the posts on this subject so far, but I am surprised it seems to have not
yet been considered (unless by the original observers).
I am not sure if it is the illusion that is typical to some photographs, but
this bird seems marginally larger than the other AMHGs (American Herring
Gulls) in the vicinity and smaller than the GBBG. And frankly, more than a
few characteristics seem intermediate between GBBG and AMHG. There is a hint
of a pale patch at the inner primaries, but it is quite subtle. Perhaps the
reason it is not so obvious is because of the angle of the image versus the
open wing, but compare the colour of the outer primaries and the inner
secondaries & tertials to the colour of the inner primaries.
To my eyes, the tail pattern, bill size and shape, head size and shape,
colouration of the head, breast & belly and the upperwing pattern all seem
intermediate (to varying degrees) between AMHG and GBBG. And therefore I
cannot escape the conclusion that this bird might be a hybrid of the two.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Simms
Moenchengladbach, Germany
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: FW: GBBG [from Frode Falkenberg]
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 29 Dec 2004 11:49pm
Dave Irons also privately suggested LBBG, and I think it's
a much better fit in terms of the Herring-like head shape and
straight bill (along with the uniformly dark primaries and dark
underwing coverts). It does seem exceptionally chunky,
particularly in the thickness of the rear for a LBBG, but
perhaps not out of range(?)
Is the large extent of the barring at the bases of the central
rects within normal range for LBBG? Also what about the
low-contrast dusky fringe color to the juv coverts and
remaining juv scaps? In photos I'm used to seeing a much paler,
almost whitish background color to the juvenile mantle on
LBBG - curious how variable this.
Cheers,
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RE : Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario
(Canada)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <pierre-andre.crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS.FR>
Date: 30 Dec 2004 2:12am
Dear all,
I am a bit puzzled by the comments suggesting this bird could be a GBBG.
Although I have to admit GBBG is one of the species I am the less familiar with,
there are just too many features which seem out of range for GBBG that I find
it hard to believe this is an acceptable explanation.
As many have already commented, I have yet to see a GBBG with such a head shape
and overall dark coloration at this time of year. In addition, the dark
primaries, dark underwing and dark outer greater coverts all seem odd (if not
out of range) for GBBG. All these features point strongly toward LBBG, as it is
difficult to see haw a smithsonianus (with a pale window) X marinus (with a pale
window) hybrid could have such dark inner primaries.
I have to say the appearance of the bird looks pretty much like LBBG, and that
probably would have been my guess in the field, especially given the flight
views.
Now, the structure is a heavy for LBBG, the tail pattern is odd (with a very
limited amount of dark on the outermost tail feathers, à la marinus), and the
greater coverts are too pale and barred for LBBG according to Peter Adriaens (Hi
Peter!). This bird thus seem to be a very good match for a GBBG X LBBG hybrid,
all the features that are wrong for LBBG being normal for GBBG.
Proving beyond reasonable doubts that this is a hybrid marinus X fuscus would
require other tools I suspect(DNA samples for example), but that would be my
best bet based on the pictures we have and the comments from others.
To my knowledge, this hybrid combination has not been reported in the wild
before (no mixed pair, no suspected hybrids) but I might have missed some data.
Happy New Year to all,
Pierre
PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL // ATTENTION NOUVELLE ADRESSE EMAIL
Pierre-André Crochet
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive
1919, route de Mende
34293 Montpellier cedex 5
France
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75
+ 33 4 67 61 32 98
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38
pierre-andre.crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs.fr
-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Dick Newell
Envoyé : mercredi 29 décembre 2004 01:31
À : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada)
Re: http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGUll.htm
I am not sure whether the Greater Black-backed Gulls that we get here in the
UK are the same thing as you get in Canada (apparently American ones can
have smith-like mtDNA), but this looks like a small (female?) GBBG to me -
these can be smaller than a large male smith. The only point that concerns
me is the lack of any pale inner webs to the inner primaries - but then I am
not sure I understand variability in GBBG anyway. I am not tempted to go YLG
or hybrid on this one.
I probably have some better pix of 1st winter GBBG, but here is one online
that is similar:
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=495
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK
--
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier
--
--
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier
--
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada)
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 30 Dec 2004 8:56am
I have little experience studying Yellow-legged Gull, but I
was struck by similarities in this photo to the Ontario bird,
particularly the remarkable match to the underwing pattern,
lack of defined inner primary window, and yellowish-pink
rather than bright pink legs (thanks again for your site Martin!) -
http://www.martinreid.com/michp07.html
Note that the outer greater secondary coverts are almost solid, and
that the Ontario bird does show at least a hint of similar patterning.
Can't speak to the issue of YLGU size range.
Cheers,
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada)
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 30 Dec 2004 1:16pm
I am in the Great Black-backed Gull camp on this bird. I agree the
sloping forehead and poorly defined gonydeal angle are not middle of the
road for Great Black-backed Gull, but I don't think these discrepancies
are strong enough to overrule the plumage characteristics. Everything
about the plumage looks perfectly normal for Great Black-backed Gull to
me, including the dark washed outer greater wing coverts, lightly
speckled pale brown under wing coverts and the inner primary window.
The inner five primaries ARE paler than the outer five. The pale inner
primary window on a 1st winter Great Black-backed Gull no where near as
obvious as a smithsonianus. It can be difficult to discern at all if the
light isn't at the right angle.
I see nothing in the plumage to suggest hybrid. I looked at a 200+ 1st
winter GBBGs today. Most had the typical heavy black bill with strong
gonydeal angle and bulbous forehead. A few smaller ones did have
thinner bills and more sloping foreheads. It wouldn't have taken much
more to be the same as the Ontario bird.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of The Holdens
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 7:52 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario (Canada)
Birders,
My father and I noticed a strange gull roosting in a field near our
house on December 24th, 2004. I managed to get close to the
bird, and photographed it from most angles. I have uploaded the
photographs to my website:
http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/
and the direct link to the photographs is here:
http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGUll.htm
I've added some addition written information at the bottom of the page.
We would greatly appreciate all comments about the
identification of this gull! As there has been a few different views on
what it is.
Happy Holidays, and good gulling!
Brandon and Eric Holden
Hamilton, Ontario
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RE : Mystery Gull in Binbrook, Ontario
(Canada)
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 30 Dec 2004 1:24pm
Hi Pierre-A !
>
> As many have already commented, I have yet to see a GBBG with such a head
> shape and overall dark coloration at this time of year. In addition, the
> dark primaries, dark underwing and dark outer greater coverts all seem odd
> (if not out of range) for GBBG.
>
Dark outer greater coverts are certainly not out of range nor odd for 1y
GBBGull; in fact, it is common that they become progressively darker
outwards:
http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/GBGUwing22837.jpg
See also these images I have uploaded (3 from Newfoundland and 2 from
Belgium):
http://users.pandora.be/peteradriaens/GBBGull1y/
The inner primaries are usually rather dark (darker than in e.g. herring
gulls) with pale subterminal markings, but these subterminal markings may
be lacking alltogether.
Also, the underwing coverts may look quite dark sometimes:
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds/Svartbag_Skagen_20030921_OK_01.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds/Svartbag_Skagen_20030921_OK_02.jpg
Best wishes!
Peter
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull
From: The Holdens <holdens(AT)MOUNTAINCABLE.NET>
Date: 30 Dec 2004 6:21pm
Birders:
For anyone interested or undecided, Jean Iron and myself managed to re-find
the Binbrook Mystery Gull today. Conditions were
completely different from when I first photographed the gull, and I was quite
surprised at how different the pictures appeared. The
new photos can be found on my website:
http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/
With the direct link here:
http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGullpgtwo.htm
Good Birding!
Brandon Holden
17
Hamilton, Ontario
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 30 Dec 2004 8:08pm
Forgive me for posting again on this gull, but I would love to know
how Yellow-legged Gull is ruled out here (if it is). The size and
structure as more apparent in the new photos, including the head
and bill shape seem to be fine for YLG to me, and certainly
extreme for GBBG, perhaps to the point of being truly out of
range (there is nothing anywhere close in size/structure labeled
as GBBG anywhere on the internet as far as I can tell).
The tail pattern is fine for GBBG, but note that it is also a perfect
match for YLG right down to the coarseness and angle of the
barring. The off-whitish streaked head and entire underparts also
seem to be typical for YLG, as does the underwing pattern. The
upperwing pattern including the greater coverts appears to at
least be within normal range for YLG, if not prototypical. The off-
pink leg color is good, as apparently is the early state of advanced
scap molt and 2nd-gen scap pattern. The very wide white and
thin dark barring to the undertail coverts is also typical for
YLG, as is the comparatively limited nature of the pale tipping/
notching to the tertials.
Someone please post if I am missing something critical.
Cheers,
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull
From: Cliff and Lisa Weisse <october(AT)IDA.NET>
Date: 30 Dec 2004 9:24pm
The scaps on this individual seem rather worn. If this is a
GBBG wouldn't the scaps be fairly fresh? Also there are
outer median coverts missing on the left wing and possibly
on the right as well. Isn't that molt timing more typical
of Yellow-legged Gull and too advanced for GBBG? And I'm
not seeing GBBG in the head and bill structure.
Cliff
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 31 Dec 2004 2:25am
re: http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGullpgtwo.htm
http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGUll.htm
On 31/12/04 3:08 am, "Phillip Pickering" <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM> wrote:
>
> Someone please post if I am missing something critical.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Phil
Well, some young Yellow-legged Gulls can take on a very GBBG-like appearance
- but this isn't one of them in my humble opinion. As I have said before,
the words always and never have a special meaning with large gulls however,
in my experience with Mediterranean michahellis:
1 In flight a YLG with 2nd generation (post juv) scapulars "always" shows a
marked contrast between a pale back and dark wings. This contrast is often
much less obvious when the bird is perched. e.g. This bird:
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=920
2 A YLG of this age "always" shows an uninterrupted white corridor from the
chin, though the breast and often to the under-tail coverts e.g. these birds
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=481 (must remember to take some
full frontal shots of michs)
3 A YLG of this age "always" has a huge gleaming white tail - yes with some
marks, but "never" as dirty as the Ontario bird (see first bird above).
Doubtless you can find the occasional bird which will break these rules, but
the Ontario bird breaks all three, but I really don't know whether they work
for atlantis.
Further, some subjective points: Mediterranean michahellis should have a
more obvious primary window and the shape of the bird doesn't look right.
I don't have a clue what this bird is - I could make arguments for and
against all of the following: pure smith, argentatus, Lesser Black-backed,
Great Black-backed, hybrid of some sort (but what) - but YLG would not be
one of them, unless atlantis can look like this. If forced to choose, I
guess I would go GBBG.
I hope this answers your question Phil.
Dick
Cambridge, UK
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull
From: Bert-Jan Luijendijk <bjluijendijk(AT)planet.nl>
Date: 31 Dec 2004 8:07am
Dear all,
Indeed, the Binbrook Gull shows upperwingcoverts and scapulars which
resemble the pattern of these featherseries in (for instance) GBBG. But I am
affraid that my first sentence covers most of the resemblance of the
Binbrook Gull to GBBG, as the aforementioned gull exhibits further
especially features which are everything but in accordance with the GBBG:
1. the structure of the bird is untypical for GBBG;
2. the almost plain and very dark underwingcoverts are (very) untypical for
GBBG;
3. the lack of any pale marks or parts on the inner (and outer) webs of the
inner primaries is untypical for GBBG;
4. the pattern of the tail and upper tailcoverts is neither typical for
GBBG;
5. the somewhat dull/dark pink legs with dark shins are untypical for GBBG.
Of course, it is not difficult to collect a number of photographs of
different (further) typical GBBG's which show one of these untypical
features. But I challenge any large gull enthusiast to show us a photograph
of a beyond-doubt GBBG which shows a combination of the above listed
features. Anyway, for now, I don't believe the Binbrook Gull is a GBBG.
Instead, I would probably opt for a YLG from the Atlantic. This choice is
mainly inspired by a visit to Martin Reid's website.
Best wishes,
Bert-Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Newell" <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New Photos of the Binbrook Gull
> re: http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGullpgtwo.htm
> http://tasmania.globat.com/~peregrineprints.com/BinbrookGUll.htm
>
> On 31/12/04 3:08 am, "Phillip Pickering" <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM> wrote:
> >
> > Someone please post if I am missing something critical.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Phil
>
> Well, some young Yellow-legged Gulls can take on a very GBBG-like
appearance
> - but this isn't one of them in my humble opinion. As I have said before,
> the words always and never have a special meaning with large gulls
however,
> in my experience with Mediterranean michahellis:
> 1 In flight a YLG with 2nd generation (post juv) scapulars "always" shows
a
> marked contrast between a pale back and dark wings. This contrast is often
> much less obvious when the bird is perched. e.g. This bird:
> http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=920
> 2 A YLG of this age "always" shows an uninterrupted white corridor from
the
> chin, though the breast and often to the under-tail coverts e.g. these
birds
> http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=481 (must remember to take
some
> full frontal shots of michs)
> 3 A YLG of this age "always" has a huge gleaming white tail - yes with
some
> marks, but "never" as dirty as the Ontario bird (see first bird above).
> Doubtless you can find the occasional bird which will break these rules,
but
> the Ontario bird breaks all three, but I really don't know whether they
work
> for atlantis.
> Further, some subjective points: Mediterranean michahellis should have a
> more obvious primary window and the shape of the bird doesn't look right.
> I don't have a clue what this bird is - I could make arguments for and
> against all of the following: pure smith, argentatus, Lesser Black-backed,
> Great Black-backed, hybrid of some sort (but what) - but YLG would not be
> one of them, unless atlantis can look like this. If forced to choose, I
> guess I would go GBBG.
> I hope this answers your question Phil.
> Dick
> Cambridge, UK
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: New Photos of the Binbrook Gull
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 31 Dec 2004 12:09pm
> 1 In flight a YLG with 2nd generation (post juv) scapulars "always" shows
a
> marked contrast between a pale back and dark wings. This contrast is often
> much less obvious when the bird is perched. e.g. This bird:
> http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=920
> 2 A YLG of this age "always" shows an uninterrupted white corridor from
the
> chin, though the breast and often to the under-tail coverts e.g. these
birds
> http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=481 (must remember to take
some
> full frontal shots of michs)
> 3 A YLG of this age "always" has a huge gleaming white tail - yes with
some
> marks, but "never" as dirty as the Ontario bird (see first bird above).
Thanks, Dick. This has been very educational.
I wonder about 2 and particularly 3 on your list. YLG density
of streaking on the central underparts seems to be quite variable,
although certainly you would be able to say much better what is
typical or borderline. On 3, Grant #262 and the two fanned tail YLG
shots on Martin Reid's site (among others available on the internet)
seem to show nearly identical density and pattern of barring at the
bases of the rects to the Ontario gull.
#1 at least does seem to be a serious problem for YLG. The vast
majority of internet photos do show birds with much paler interiors to
the 2nd-gen scaps than shown by the Ontario gull.
On the other hand the dusky 2nd-gen scap interiors seem to be
normal for LBBG. For another thought, considering how widely
their breeding ranges overlap could this simply be a LBBG showing
some minor level of introgression with argenteus/argentatus?
Cheers,
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 31 Dec 2004 1:03pm
Dan finally finished his roll of film and brought me these
from the bird that was visiting his feeder in October.
http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/temp/STxWSJA20041020.html
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
- Arlo Guthrie
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 31 Dec 2004 1:46pm
A hybrid was reported in 1999 in Washington. See:
http://www.wos.org/WNComp62.htm#STJA
The North Oregon Coast and Washington are at the edge of
the expanding range of Western Scrub Jay (breeding here in
Astoria for less than 10 years). It seems likely that a
lone scrub at the edge of its range would be more likely
to stray across genera, than established populations elsewhere.
Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
>
> Mike
>
> I have never heard of this combination, it is quite likely unknown, but
> you will need to check on that. These two species of jays are not only in
> different genera, but are broadly sympatric and as such are the last you
> would expect to hybridize. I strongly encourage that someone publishes this
> record, it is frankly amazing!
>
> Cheers
>
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> chucao(AT)coastside.net
> Half Moon Bay, CA
>
> Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
> http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> > [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mike Patterson
> > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 12:04 PM
> > To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
> >
> > Dan finally finished his roll of film and brought me these
> > from the bird that was visiting his feeder in October.
> >
> > http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/temp/STxWSJA20041020.html
> >
> > --
> > Mike Patterson
> > Astoria, OR
> > celata(AT)pacifier.com
> >
> > If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
> > - Arlo Guthrie
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
- Arlo Guthrie
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 31 Dec 2004 3:31pm
I remember seeing such bird in the N. OR coast range about 12 years ago.
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mike Patterson
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 12:47 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
A hybrid was reported in 1999 in Washington. See:
http://www.wos.org/WNComp62.htm#STJA
The North Oregon Coast and Washington are at the edge of
the expanding range of Western Scrub Jay (breeding here in
Astoria for less than 10 years). It seems likely that a
lone scrub at the edge of its range would be more likely
to stray across genera, than established populations elsewhere.
Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
>
> Mike
>
> I have never heard of this combination, it is quite likely unknown,
but
> you will need to check on that. These two species of jays are not only
in
> different genera, but are broadly sympatric and as such are the last
you
> would expect to hybridize. I strongly encourage that someone publishes
this
> record, it is frankly amazing!
>
> Cheers
>
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> chucao(AT)coastside.net
> Half Moon Bay, CA
>
> Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
> http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> > [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mike Patterson
> > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 12:04 PM
> > To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
> >
> > Dan finally finished his roll of film and brought me these
> > from the bird that was visiting his feeder in October.
> >
> > http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/temp/STxWSJA20041020.html
> >
> > --
> > Mike Patterson
> > Astoria, OR
> > celata(AT)pacifier.com
> >
> > If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
> > - Arlo Guthrie
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
- Arlo Guthrie
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Tricky gull in Rochester, New Hampshire 12/30/04.
From: "James P. Smith" <keenbirder(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 31 Dec 2004 8:52pm
Hi birders,
http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/de_uid_gull.html
This puzzling 2nd/3rd winter gull reminded me of some
of smaller taxa, but almost as large as smithsonianus.
In the field, the bird showed a noticeably short bill
in direct comparison to smithsonianus, and also
appeared shorter legged and relatively long winged.
The iris color was dark brown, and the bird appeared
dark-eyed from all angles.
I'm not too sure what to make of it, and would
appreciate any comments/help with the age and
identification.
Best to all for 2005!
Cheers,
James P. Smith
Keene, NH.
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