B-Mail(sm): ID-FRONTIERS for January 1-8, 2005

The Virtual Birder

OnLocation
B-Mail
BIRDxxxx
BIRDCHAT
ID-FRONTIERS
US:West
Canada
Families
Real Birds
Hot Links
Gallery
Media Shelf
Prizes
EdCentral
Rants & Raves

B-MAIL	sm
ID-FRONTIERS for January 1-8, 2005

[ Prev Week | Next Week | Calendar Month | ID-FRONTIERS Info ]
Messages are displayed in the order they were received.

Subject From Date Time

Age terminology Dick Newell Sun, 2 Jan 2005 1:15pm
Redwings Rafael Lizarralde Sun, 2 Jan 2005 7:47pm
GWFGxSNGO hybrid, or just a domestic? Tim Avery Sun, 2 Jan 2005 8:41pm
Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04. James P. Smith Mon, 3 Jan 2005 8:33am
Re: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04. Lethaby, Nick Mon, 3 Jan 2005 9:12am
Arizona Archilocus Mark Stevenson Mon, 3 Jan 2005 9:37am
Re: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04. Phillip Pickering Mon, 3 Jan 2005 9:47am
Archilochus identification MTHEINDEL(AT)AOL.COM Mon, 3 Jan 2005 1:59pm
Re: Archilochus identification Jim Pike Mon, 3 Jan 2005 4:32pm
Re: Arizona Archilocus Noel Wamer Mon, 3 Jan 2005 5:54pm
Re: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04. Ross Silcock Mon, 3 Jan 2005 7:19pm
Re: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04 Phillip Pickering Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:01pm
Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:30pm
Re: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04 Ross Silcock Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:45pm
Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay Alvaro Jaramillo Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:59pm
Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay Matt Sharp Tue, 4 Jan 2005 7:54am
Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay speedyg Tue, 4 Jan 2005 9:13am
Illinois "RBGU" John Idzikowski Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:04pm
Re: Illinois "RBGU" Lethaby, Nick Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:07pm
Re: Illinois "RBGU" Lethaby, Nick Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:11pm
Re: Illinois "RBGU" Bruce Deuel Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:13pm
Re: Illinois "RBGU" Alvaro Jaramillo Tue, 4 Jan 2005 1:03pm
Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay Alan J. Knue Tue, 4 Jan 2005 2:02pm
Glaucous Gull - bill pigments Frode Falkenberg Tue, 4 Jan 2005 5:45pm
Re: Glaucous Gull - bill pigments Lethaby, Nick Tue, 4 Jan 2005 6:00pm
Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay Joseph Morlan Tue, 4 Jan 2005 6:21pm
Glaucous Gull bill colors Paul E. Lehman Tue, 4 Jan 2005 7:13pm
Re: Glaucous Gull - bill pigments Phillip Pickering Tue, 4 Jan 2005 8:40pm
Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04. James P. Smith Tue, 4 Jan 2005 8:58pm
Re: Glaucous Gull - bill pigments Phillip Pickering Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:46pm
Molt-migration in American Redstarts: Article in Science Ted Floyd Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:35pm
Re: Glaucous Gull bill colors Luke Cole Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:49am
Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay Jeff Davis Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:50am
Re: Glaucous Gull bill colors Phillip Pickering Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:26pm
Re: Molt-migration in American Redstarts: Article in Science John Idzikowski Wed, 5 Jan 2005 1:30pm
Re: Glaucous Gull bill colors Lethaby, Nick Wed, 5 Jan 2005 2:16pm
Re: Glaucous Gull bill colors Norman D.van Swelm Wed, 5 Jan 2005 5:43pm
more pics of the unusual Western-type Empid in south Texas Martin Reid Wed, 5 Jan 2005 7:40pm
Unusual Hybrid in Idaho J. Harry Krueger Wed, 5 Jan 2005 8:29pm
Gull Bills SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM Wed, 5 Jan 2005 9:31pm
Re: Unusual Hybrid in Idaho Alvaro Jaramillo Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:41pm
Re: Unusual Hybrid in Idaho J. Harry Krueger Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:26pm
Re: Unusual Hybrid in Idaho Mark Stackhouse Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:42am
Re: Unusual Hybrid in Idaho Peter Adriaens Thu, 6 Jan 2005 2:21am
Pheasant hybrids J H Thu, 6 Jan 2005 2:23am
Re: Grouse hybrids Peter Adriaens Thu, 6 Jan 2005 2:27am
Re: Gull Bills Lethaby, Nick Thu, 6 Jan 2005 9:47am
Re: Gull Bills Phillip Pickering Thu, 6 Jan 2005 9:54am
Glaucous Gull Bills SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:50am
grouse x pheasant hybrids Ian Paulsen Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:55am
Re: Glaucous Gull Bills Lethaby, Nick Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:08am
Re: Grouse hybrids Mark Stackhouse Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:27am
Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration MIECHEL TABAK Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:40am
Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:53am
Re: Glaucous Gull Bills Phillip Pickering Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:57am
Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration Matt Sharp Thu, 6 Jan 2005 2:27pm
Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration Norman D.van Swelm Thu, 6 Jan 2005 5:15pm
Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration Bruce Deuel Thu, 6 Jan 2005 5:39pm
Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration John Idzikowski Thu, 6 Jan 2005 5:43pm
Grouse X Pheasant Ware Dean Thu, 6 Jan 2005 5:56pm
Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM Thu, 6 Jan 2005 6:29pm
Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration John Idzikowski Thu, 6 Jan 2005 9:51pm
Possible Black-headed X Ring-billed Gull? Dave DeReamus Fri, 7 Jan 2005 1:56am
more on the unusual Western-type Empid in south Texas Martin Reid Fri, 7 Jan 2005 6:11am
Tubenose vocalizations (RFI) Phoebetria(AT)AOL.COM Fri, 7 Jan 2005 7:35am
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls Jeff Gilligan Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:39am
Re: Possible Black-headed X Ring-billed Gull? Kenn Kaufman Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:14pm
Barrovianus Glaucous Gull SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM Fri, 7 Jan 2005 2:34pm
Re: Glaucous gulls John Idzikowski Fri, 7 Jan 2005 2:44pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull Lethaby, Nick Fri, 7 Jan 2005 3:01pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull Alvaro Jaramillo Fri, 7 Jan 2005 3:03pm
Barrovianus Glaucous range Jim Mountjoy Fri, 7 Jan 2005 3:45pm
Re: more on the unusual Western-type Empid in south Texas Martin Reid Fri, 7 Jan 2005 3:48pm
Re: more on the unusual Western-type Empid in south Texas Jim Pike Fri, 7 Jan 2005 4:10pm
Re: West Coast Glaucous Gulls MIECHEL TABAK Fri, 7 Jan 2005 4:23pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls Declan Troy Fri, 7 Jan 2005 5:31pm
Re: more on the unusual Western-type Empid in south Texas Barb Beck Fri, 7 Jan 2005 5:34pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls Lethaby, Nick Fri, 7 Jan 2005 5:43pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls Norman D.van Swelm Fri, 7 Jan 2005 6:08pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls Jeff Davis Fri, 7 Jan 2005 6:13pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls - Banks abstract Jeff Davis Fri, 7 Jan 2005 6:54pm
RFI: Larus hyperboreus barrovianus VS. L. h. leucertes Bryan Guarente Fri, 7 Jan 2005 8:49pm
Larus hyperboreus barrovianus in Texas? Jean Iron Fri, 7 Jan 2005 9:10pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull Jeff Gilligan Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:44pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull Jeff Gilligan Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:50pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull Bruce Mactavish Sat, 8 Jan 2005 1:47am
Italy: a mystery with cachinnans ancestors Menotti Passarella Sat, 8 Jan 2005 3:01am
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull Phillip Pickering Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:53pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull Alvaro Jaramillo Sat, 8 Jan 2005 1:15pm
Phil Pickering's photos of small Glaucous Gulls. Jeff Gilligan Sat, 8 Jan 2005 1:23pm
Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull Phillip Pickering Sat, 8 Jan 2005 2:36pm
Re: Phil Pickering's photos of small Glaucous Gulls. Phillip Pickering Sat, 8 Jan 2005 3:08pm
Glaucous-winged Gull in northern Illinois Robert Hughes Sat, 8 Jan 2005 5:13pm
Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in northern Illinois Jeff Gilligan Sat, 8 Jan 2005 6:11pm
Acceptable variation in Plegadis Miliff(AT)AOL.COM Sat, 8 Jan 2005 6:16pm
Barrovianus measurements SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM Sat, 8 Jan 2005 7:09pm
Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in northern Illinois Phillip Pickering Sat, 8 Jan 2005 7:41pm
Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in northern Illinois Jeff Gilligan Sat, 8 Jan 2005 8:30pm
Re: Illinois gull DAVID IRONS Sat, 8 Jan 2005 8:54pm
Re: Possible Black-headed X Ring-billed Gull? Dave DeReamus Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:56pm

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Age terminology
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 2 Jan 2005 1:15pm

In recent years, I have used the calendar year approach (1CY, 2CY etc.) to
describe the ages of gulls. I went off the 1st winter (=1st basic), 1st
summer (=1st alternate) approach, because it was ambiguous as to whether one
was describing the state of the bird's plumage, or its age. This is all very
well in the Northern Hemisphere, where the breeding months are far separated
from January 1, but there is a lack of symmetry if one uses calendar years
for southern hemisphere species, such as Kelp Gulls (breeding in the south).
Is there a simple solution to this? I've got my own ideas, but has anyone
else got a symmetric solution that works in both hemispheres?
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Redwings
From: Rafael Lizarralde <wartiger(AT)TWCNY.RR.COM>
Date: 2 Jan 2005 7:47pm

I've been reading all about how Redwings could or could not be likely from
either Iceland or Scandinavia, and I wanted to add a infinitesimal amount of
advice. I have heard about (but not actually confirmed) birds ending up west
of where their bodies are pointing, because of the Earth's rotation.
Wouldn't this add to the probability of a Redwing getting here from either
place?

~Rafael Lizarralde

is a newer birder who goes to Venezuela during the summer. He is also a
so-called nerd (or "biogeek", bio as in biology, as named by peer critics)
in 8th grade. During the rest of the year he lives in Ithaca, New York
(USA).


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: GWFGxSNGO hybrid, or just a domestic?
From: Tim Avery <tanager(AT)TIMAVERYBIRDING.COM>
Date: 2 Jan 2005 8:41pm

Yesterday while birding along the Great Salt Lake in Utah, I came across a
goose
that at first glance appeared to be a Greater White-fronted Goose.  After
getting it in the scope it appeared to be a hybrid with a Snow Goose.  I am not
an expert on hybrids, and this bird doesn't appear to have the makings of a
"greyleg" hybrid, i.e.: low belly, odd shaped bill, short neck.  But it also
lacks the white front on the face.  here is a link to several pictures taken:

http://tanager.smugmug.com/gallery/342471

The bird was in a mowed down corn field with 150 - 200 Canada Geese, across the
street from a set of ponds.  There are no domestic geese on those ponds.  There
are some domestic ducks, but there are more wild ducks, that domestic, as in
not Mallards.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Good Birding

Tim Avery

Salt Lake City, UT or Beloit, WI
http://www.timaverybirding.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04.
From: "James P. Smith" <keenbirder(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 3 Jan 2005 8:33am

Hi birders,

http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/de_uid_gull.html

Interest in this bird seems to be quite low and I've
received just two responses off list, both of them
quite different.

One in favor of 2nd-winter smithsonianus...

One in favor of 3rd-winter thayeri....

Any further thoughts would be welcome, if you have the
time.

Best to all,

James P. Smith
Keene, NH.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04.
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 3 Jan 2005 9:12am

The wing-tips are too dark for a 2W Thayer's and in-line with a
smithsonianus. However the eye looks dark. Are there any good flight
shots? Is there a remote chance it's an odd RB Gull? I know there are
lots of things wrong for this.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of James P. Smith
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 7:33 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04.

Hi birders,

http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/de_uid_gull.html

Interest in this bird seems to be quite low and I've
received just two responses off list, both of them
quite different.

One in favor of 2nd-winter smithsonianus...

One in favor of 3rd-winter thayeri....

Any further thoughts would be welcome, if you have the
time.

Best to all,

James P. Smith
Keene, NH.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Arizona Archilocus
From: Mark Stevenson <drbrdr(AT)WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Date: 3 Jan 2005 9:37am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Returning for a one-day stopover at his Tucson home Rich Hoyer noted an =
archilochus at his near-empty feeder.  There are scant few records of =
Black-chinneds in winter in AZ and zero AZ records of Ruby-throated =
Hummingbird.  The bird has very worn primaries, presenting an ID =
challenge.=20

Photos of the bird are up on the web at:

http://home.flash.net/~mollymp/AZ%20Arch.html

Comments on the ID of this bird would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Mark Stevenson
Tucson, AZ

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04.
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 3 Jan 2005 9:47am

> http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/de_uid_gull.html

Hard to be absolutly positive in a case like this mainly due to the
extreme high-contrast lighting, but without better photos of the
primary stack or some good flight shots I don't see how it would
be acceptable as a Thayer's. The primaries appear to have an
extremely high dark pigment saturation typical of smith. P10
looks entirely dark - except for the gleaming white shaft which
I think may be giving the illusion of a pale underside to left P10
at extreme angle. In the one shot where the underside of P10
is turned towards the camera the feather itself shows no hint of
contrast change anywhere, while you would normally expect at
least the upper inner web to be noticeably paler in Thayer's.

The primary/tertial contrast looks minimal for Thayer's of all
ages, and similar to the other immature smiths in the same
lighting.

Thayer's of all ages also normally show some detectable
amount of pale fringing to the primary tips, while 1st/2nd
winter smith typically only show some tiny pale spotting
right on the tips, if they show any pale at all.

These points are well illustrated in Michael Shepard's excellent
Thayer's photo collection at -

http://www.birdinfo.com/ThayersGull_image.html
..I still think the Texas juv on the bottom left could be a
Slaty-backed :)

At least on the west coast a very small minority of otherwise
pure-appearing smith do not have a pale eye by 2nd-December.
Of course they may be of dubious purity, but it also may be
that some are just atypically slow in that aspect of maturing.
Obviously the gull in question may also be a smith of dubious
purity. I think it structurally is within range of a very small smith,
but I haven't had time to consider other possibilities besides
smith/Thayer's yet for this bird.

Nice photos!

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Archilochus identification
From: MTHEINDEL(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 3 Jan 2005 1:59pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Regarding the female hummingbird Mark Stevenson  reported:

_http://home.flash.net/~mollymp/AZ%20Arch.html_
(http://home.flash.net/~mollymp/AZ%20Arch.html)

It looks like a Ruby-throated to me, but of course, these  are mighty small
limbs we are walking on. There are so many problems with this  type of
identification, including the very real possibility of hybrids (e gad,  he said
the H
word and it is not even a gull).

With that said, the inner primaries are narrow, as one would expect  for an
Archilochus.  So, let's assume we have it in the right genus.

None of the few marks distinguishing these two species line up on  the
Black-chinned side. Specifically, the crown is green, the throat is white,  the
bill
is not of the long, significantly drooped variety and, what little I  can see
of p10 is that it is moderate, not the thin end of Ruby-throat perhaps,  but
not the club shaped tip of the wider Black-chinneds. Congratulations, you
found a tweener!

When I lived in San Antonio, I thoroughly enjoyed these  hummers, as
Black-chinned was the breeder and Ruby-throated was a common  migrant,
particularly in
fall. Most BCHu would depart by Labor Day, but a few  might linger, whereas
RTHu were in good numbers into October. When they  overlapped I would try to
work on each female (many im males were easily  identifiable with good looks).
Your bird has the typical RTHu look: they always  look bright green, including
the head down to the tip of the bill (which,  although duller, is still
unambiguously green); the throat looks white and  virtually unmarked; the color
on
the flanks, even if not extensive, is of a  warm, cinnamon color, and the bill
is of medium length. (I should note your bird  does not strike me as being at
the short end of the spectrum for bill  length.)

There was no discussion of call or behavior. I found their tail  bobbing or
flicking, as the case may be, to vary and would be eager to hear  of your views
on that. (Were you not trying to bias us?) Given the significance  of any
Archilochus in the SW at this season, much less a potential 1st state  record,
I
share your concern for caution. So, I will leave it as my best hunch-
Ruby-throated.

I had a particularly puzzling hummingbird in east Kern a few years  back in
early October, seen by many (including a certain Secretary of the AZ
committee!). It was bright green above, including a few feathers down to the
bill!,
and had nice cinnamon flanks, lacking the typical grayish buff of BCHu.  It has
fresh buffy edges, indicating a real youngster, odd given the late date.  p10
was definitely of the broad BCHu type, so either BCHu can have green  feathers
to the base of the bill, or the Kern bird was a hybrid. So, sightings  like
that, and a run through many museum drawers, does reinforce my caution on
female Archilochus.

Thanks for sharing; I look forward to hearing more.

Matt  Heindel
Carlsbad CA

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Archilochus identification
From: Jim Pike <jpike44(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 3 Jan 2005 4:32pm

An additional factor favoring this bird's identification as RTHU is the
shape of R5, which looks relatively broad despite the effects of wear.
Given that we're only a few new primaries away from seeing the perhaps
definitive shape of P10, I suggest investing in a few more hummingbird
feeders.

Jim Pike
Huntington Beach,CA


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Arizona Archilocus
From: Noel Wamer <nwamer(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 3 Jan 2005 5:54pm

> http://home.flash.net/~mollymp/AZ%20Arch.html

I see nothing in the pictures posted that suggest anything but a
Black-chinned, probably a hatch-year female.  I would judge all
images showing the shape of the p10s are in the range of D-E in
Figure 97 of Pyle (1997).  I do not see any of the images of the
p10s even approaching shape of C in Fig. 97, and I will add that I
have never seen a presumed Ruby-throated with primaries approaching
the shape of this AZ bird, and I spend a lot of time looking at the
outer primaries of late fall - early winter Ruby-throateds.  The
first image (http://home.flash.net/~mollymp/Archilochus%201.jpg) is
striking.  If anyone can present an image of Ruby-throated with a
p10 rachis that is this curved, I will slink back under my rock.

Crown-color:  http://home.flash.net/~mollymp/Archilochus%202.jpg.
Looks rather less than bright green to me...

Bill length:  http://home.flash.net/~mollymp/Archilochus%202.jpg.
Looks pretty long for Ruby-throated to me, but there is considerable
overlap, so probably inconclusive.

Flank color:  I see no images that look warm, cinnamon.  The best
seem to be...
http://home.flash.net/~mollymp/Archi%20Tail%20010105a1%20MMS.jpg
http://home.flash.net/~mollymp/Arch_05RT_Hummer2.JPG
http://home.flash.net/~mollymp/Archi%20Tail%20010105b1%20MMS.jpg

Voice and tail-bobbing... ???

Later...
--
Noel Wamer
Jacksonville, FL


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04.
From: Ross Silcock <silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com>
Date: 3 Jan 2005 7:19pm

Why is this not a 2nd-winter California?  Bill's pretty short, of course,
but otherwise? Nice primary extension. Albertaensis?
Ross

Ross Silcock
P.O. Box 57
Tabor, Iowa, USA  51653
silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com
New Zealand Land and Pelagic Bird Tours
Birders' Checklist of the Pacific
www.rosssilcock.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "James P. Smith" <keenbirder(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 9:32 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04.

> Hi birders,
>
> http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/de_uid_gull.html
>
> Interest in this bird seems to be quite low and I've
> received just two responses off list, both of them
> quite different.
>
> One in favor of 2nd-winter smithsonianus...
>
> One in favor of 3rd-winter thayeri....
>
> Any further thoughts would be welcome, if you have the
> time.
>
> Best to all,
>
> James P. Smith
> Keene, NH.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
> http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
>
>


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 3 Jan 2005 10:01pm

> Why is this not a 2nd-winter California?  Bill's pretty short, of course,
> but otherwise? Nice primary extension. Albertaensis?

That's a good suggestion - the body is certainly the right shape
and the appearance/maturity level of the mantle is fine for 2B
Cal in Dec, but IMO there are enough things subtly off that I'm
not sure whether Cal, even albertaensis, is a realistic possibility.

- although I see a wide range of variation in mantle color in
migratory Cals on the Oregon coast (at least a minority of
which are likely coming from Canada), in direct comparison
with smith even the palest always show a detectable difference.
In the second photo down where the bird is standing next to a
more standard subadult smith at the same angle to the light,
the mantle shades appear identical (to my eye).

- the head shape seems somewhat Herring-like to me for Cal in
any posture, again appearing slightly heavy and angular at the hind
crown. Even with the crown feathers flattened Cals of all sizes
most often seem to have more sloping hind-crowns. Also I think
the head is proportionately small for Cal. In fact note that although
smaller, this bird's head shape and head/body proportions are not
all that dissimilar to the other Herrings (or the Glaucous!)

- most 2B Cals, even the paler ones tend to have higher contrast,
heavier, darker streaking on the nape and back of the neck
than is apparent on this bird. I'm not sure how the lighting might be
affecting this, but note again how the pattern, contrast, and
density of the streaking on the entire bird is very similar to the
adjacent smith in the 2nd photo down.

- as was noted the bill is proportionately short. I wouldn't underrate
that as a clue. In my experience on the Oregon coast, the larger
the Cal the longer the bill.

- the legs are bright pink. Although many 2B Cals do have
pinkish legs, the vast majority have blueish or grayish overtones,
usually most obvious on the "knees" and feet. If I'm interpreting
the photos correctly this bird actually is brightest pink on the
knees and feet - the opposite of what I would expect for Cal.
And again, I can see no appreciable difference in leg color with
the Herrings.

- while smaller Cals can be quite short-legged, in my experience
the larger ones actually tend to appear a bit on the long-legged
end proportionally.

Alvaro inspired me to do an extended photo series on normal Cal
variation (among other sp.) when I have time, but in the meantime
here's this crummy video capture again from the Oregon coast,
(June) perhaps helping to illustrate a few of the above points.
Front two birds are towards the far ends of size range for Cals
that I see here (rear 2 are Western) -

http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/cal001.jpg

I've tried, and I can't really see anything on the gull in question to
suggest that an atypical (or intergrade) smith isn't the most likely
possibility. Pending any flight shots I'm not sure where else to go
with it.

Pardon long-windedness.

Cheers,

Phil


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 3 Jan 2005 10:30pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Hi all:

Actually, this idea has always confused me.  Yes, it may be possible that
out-of-range birds with no nearby potential mates would be willing to
hybridize,
but it takes two to tango!  Presumably, the Steller's Jay parent was not ALSO
out of range so I don't understand what its excuse is.  My point is that there
must be something else going on in these situations; perhaps, avian rape is
more common than we suspect (yes, it's quite regular/common in waterfowl, but
I'm talking -- well, writing -- more widespread across avian taxa).

Sincerely,

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04
From: Ross Silcock <silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com>
Date: 3 Jan 2005 10:45pm

Phil et al:
Thanks for the summary- much appreciated!  Here's my private reply to Jim
Pike:
Jim:
I realize it's a bit of a stretch, but it's an odd gull. The right leg shows
a bit of California-type bluish-gray; a recent European bird that is thought
(by Europeans!) to be a Cal but is controversial had pinkish tones to its
legs too. I don't think mantle color is a problem; albertaensis Cals can be
rather pale. To me, biggest problem is the small bill. Perhaps the
parsimonious conclusion is odd Herring, but it could as well be an odd Cal,
too.
Ross

Ross Silcock
P.O. Box 57
Tabor, Iowa, USA  51653
silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com
New Zealand Land and Pelagic Bird Tours
Birders' Checklist of the Pacific
www.rosssilcock.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Pickering" <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 3 Jan 2005 10:59pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Tony et al.

            Well the answer is probably in differential costs and benefits
of hybridization. A female Steller's Jay has a potentially high cost (in
terms of lifetime reproductive success) if it mates with a lost Scrub Jay,
as hybrid offspring are not the best way to pass on your genes. A male
Steller's Jay has a very small cost to mating with a lost Scrub Jay female,
as it does not preclude it from mating with a female Steller's Jay and
raising a normal Steller's Jay brood. Most female birds have more to lose in
a sub-optimal pairing, such as a hybrid pairing, than males. So I would
predict that in these situations, hybridization will occur more frequently
when the lost bird is a female. With regards to "rape" it is perhaps better
to call it by the name that most researchers call it, forced copulation.
This may seem like political correctness, but in animal behaviour it is
important to not anthropomorphize the behaviours that the animals are
performing. They may not be the same thing! In other words, the reasons
(motivation for the behaviour) are almost surely different when a male duck
forces himself on a female, than the human version.

Alvaro Jaramillo

chucao(AT)coastside.net

Half Moon Bay, CA

Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm

  _____

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 9:30 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay

Hi all:

Actually, this idea has always confused me.  Yes, it may be possible that
out-of-range birds with no nearby potential mates would be willing to
hybridize, but it takes two to tango!  Presumably, the Steller's Jay parent
was not ALSO out of range so I don't understand what its excuse is.  My
point is that there must be something else going on in these situations;
perhaps, avian rape is more common than we suspect (yes, it's quite
regular/common in waterfowl, but I'm talking -- well, writing -- more
widespread across avian taxa).

Sincerely,

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 7:54am

In the core range of any species there are likely breeding age 
individuals in reproductive condition which are unable to find a
mate or a territory. I think these would provide a ready source for
vagrants to find a mate.

Also just because a bird is mated doesn't mean it won't be stepping
out for a little on the side, in fact doesn't the word "cuckold" stems from 
avian reproduction?

Finally Jays can have some fairly complex reproductive strategies, though
I don't know the specifics. Don't FL Steller's have some cooperative breeding 
systems?

Cheers

Matt


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
From: speedyg <speedyg(AT)SWAMPHEN.NET>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 9:13am

>>Finally Jays can have some fairly complex reproductive strategies, though I 
don't know the specifics. Don't FL Steller's have some cooperative breeding 
systems?<<

Florida Scrub-Jays operate in family groups, with offspring from previous 
years helping to feed the current year's young.

If you find a Steller's in Florida, please let me know. ;)

-S.P.McCool / http://www.swamphen.net/
Crawfordville, Florida, USA - Wakulla County
30.166�N 84.402�W - elv. 35'/11m - GMT-5
USDA Zone 8B - Sunset Zone 28 - Heat Zone 9
32326 - FWCC Northwest Region - Grid EM70td
-------------------------------------------
The difference between the right word and
the almost-right word is really quite
important. It's the difference between the
lightning and the lightning-bug. -Mark Twain
-------------------------------------------


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Illinois "RBGU"
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 12:04pm

Does anyone know of any records of hybrids of RBGU X Mew? As RB range
expands I imagine they are invading traditional Mew nesting grounds in
such areas as northern Alberta and Saskatchewan. We occasionally see
very small 1st Basic birds in the western Great Lakes that have some
Mew-like characters but are routinely labeled as RB when Mew is
eliminated by the traditional field mark drills. The following bird
from Illinois is interesting in that it has retained juv. plumage,
quite rare here for RB (and Mew?) for Dec. 22, some Mew like
characters- a small bill, dusky neck markings (altho that could be
part of the juv retention), thin legs; the shape of the brown markings
on the gr coverts appears to be more RB-like. While this bird probably
is an aberrant runt RB, I am interested in an answer to my initial
question and would appreciate any other comments.

http://www.monroe.k12.il.us/websites/dkassebaum/report.htm

Please respond to the group or to me and not to the email addr on the
webpage.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Illinois "RBGU"
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 12:07pm

Yes, there was one in Palo Alto, CA about 5 years ago. It was around for
I think a couple of winters and well observed by myself, AL Jaramillo,
and others.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Idzikowski
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:04 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Illinois "RBGU"

Does anyone know of any records of hybrids of RBGU X Mew? As RB range
expands I imagine they are invading traditional Mew nesting grounds in
such areas as northern Alberta and Saskatchewan. We occasionally see
very small 1st Basic birds in the western Great Lakes that have some
Mew-like characters but are routinely labeled as RB when Mew is
eliminated by the traditional field mark drills. The following bird
from Illinois is interesting in that it has retained juv. plumage,
quite rare here for RB (and Mew?) for Dec. 22, some Mew like
characters- a small bill, dusky neck markings (altho that could be
part of the juv retention), thin legs; the shape of the brown markings
on the gr coverts appears to be more RB-like. While this bird probably
is an aberrant runt RB, I am interested in an answer to my initial
question and would appreciate any other comments.

http://www.monroe.k12.il.us/websites/dkassebaum/report.htm

Please respond to the group or to me and not to the email addr on the
webpage.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Illinois "RBGU"
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 12:11pm

Mew Gull commonly retains juv plumage well into the winter. For example,
I am seeing plenty with retained juv plumage and no gray scapulars ever
now. They retain juv plumage much more extensively than RBGU. Kamchatka
is similar to Mew, but canus and Henei Common Gulls tend to molt much
more quickly to 1W plumage.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Idzikowski
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:04 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Illinois "RBGU"

Does anyone know of any records of hybrids of RBGU X Mew? As RB range
expands I imagine they are invading traditional Mew nesting grounds in
such areas as northern Alberta and Saskatchewan. We occasionally see
very small 1st Basic birds in the western Great Lakes that have some
Mew-like characters but are routinely labeled as RB when Mew is
eliminated by the traditional field mark drills. The following bird
from Illinois is interesting in that it has retained juv. plumage,
quite rare here for RB (and Mew?) for Dec. 22, some Mew like
characters- a small bill, dusky neck markings (altho that could be
part of the juv retention), thin legs; the shape of the brown markings
on the gr coverts appears to be more RB-like. While this bird probably
is an aberrant runt RB, I am interested in an answer to my initial
question and would appreciate any other comments.

http://www.monroe.k12.il.us/websites/dkassebaum/report.htm

Please respond to the group or to me and not to the email addr on the
webpage.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Illinois "RBGU"
From: Bruce Deuel <BDEUEL(AT)DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 12:13pm

Hi all,
There is a Mew Gull here in Redding, Shasta County, California, right
now that is still almost completely in juvenal plumage, except for many
back feathers and scapulars.  It has a completely dark tail, and is very
dark overall.  I would certainly agree with John that the Illinois bird
is not brachyrhynchus.

Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Redding, CA

>>> John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU> 1/4/2005 11:04:23 AM >>>
Does anyone know of any records of hybrids of RBGU X Mew? As RB range
expands I imagine they are invading traditional Mew nesting grounds in
such areas as northern Alberta and Saskatchewan. We occasionally see
very small 1st Basic birds in the western Great Lakes that have some
Mew-like characters but are routinely labeled as RB when Mew is
eliminated by the traditional field mark drills. The following bird
from Illinois is interesting in that it has retained juv. plumage,
quite rare here for RB (and Mew?) for Dec. 22, some Mew like
characters- a small bill, dusky neck markings (altho that could be
part of the juv retention), thin legs; the shape of the brown markings
on the gr coverts appears to be more RB-like. While this bird probably
is an aberrant runt RB, I am interested in an answer to my initial
question and would appreciate any other comments.

http://www.monroe.k12.il.us/websites/dkassebaum/report.htm

Please respond to the group or to me and not to the email addr on the
webpage.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Illinois "RBGU"
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 1:03pm

Gull fans

   Like Nick mentions, there was a bird in Palo Alto a few years ago that
was almost certainly a hybrid Mew x Ring-billed. There are many good photos
of the bird, which was an adult, and I even have recordings of its
intermediate sounding long-call displays. I really should publish this, but
never get around to it! At first due to its size and non Mew Gull features,
the idea was tossed around that this bird was a Kamchatka Gull, but there
were too many things wrong with this identification.
        The Illinois looks like a Ring-billed Gull, a little odd, but a
Ring-billed nonetheless. One feature that I seldom hear mentioned in the
separation of first cycle Ring-billed from Mew (restricted to
brachyrhynchus) is the colour and pattern of the greater coverts. In Mew
they are almost always brownish, particularly distally (nearest the bend of
wing). On a few the coverts are barred, or show dark subterminal marks. In
colour the greater coverts do not contrast much with the medians, they are
both brownish, with the greaters being slightly greyer but not by much. In
Ring-billed Gull the greater coverts are almost always clearly grey, often
barred brown, but they contrast clearly with the browner median coverts.
This difference also creates a very different flight pattern in first cycle
individuals of these two species, with Mew looking pretty evenly brown above
with paler brownish inner primaries (like a tiny, slim first cycle
smithsonianus), while Ring-billed has a grey panel on the wing and much more
grey colour to the inner primaries (like a small, second cycle
smithsonianus!). Probably a simplification, but works for me here in
California. The Illinois bird is clearly a Ring-billed on this feature
alone, and there are many other features that also point against Mew Gull.

cheers

Al

Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, CA

Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm

> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Lethaby, Nick
> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:07 AM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Illinois "RBGU"
>
> Yes, there was one in Palo Alto, CA about 5 years ago. It was around for
> I think a couple of winters and well observed by myself, AL Jaramillo,
> and others.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Idzikowski
> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:04 AM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Illinois "RBGU"
>
> Does anyone know of any records of hybrids of RBGU X Mew? As RB range
> expands I imagine they are invading traditional Mew nesting grounds in
> such areas as northern Alberta and Saskatchewan. We occasionally see
> very small 1st Basic birds in the western Great Lakes that have some
> Mew-like characters but are routinely labeled as RB when Mew is
> eliminated by the traditional field mark drills. The following bird
> from Illinois is interesting in that it has retained juv. plumage,
> quite rare here for RB (and Mew?) for Dec. 22, some Mew like
> characters- a small bill, dusky neck markings (altho that could be
> part of the juv retention), thin legs; the shape of the brown markings
> on the gr coverts appears to be more RB-like. While this bird probably
> is an aberrant runt RB, I am interested in an answer to my initial
> question and would appreciate any other comments.
>
> http://www.monroe.k12.il.us/websites/dkassebaum/report.htm
>
> Please respond to the group or to me and not to the email addr on the
> webpage.
>
> John Idzikowski, Milwaukee


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
From: "Alan J. Knue" <bluejay(AT)SURFBIRDER.COM>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 2:02pm

Hello Everyone,

I remember seeing pictures of the WA jay (jays? there may have been a
brood reported at the time) in 1999 and thinking they didn't look much
different from juvenile Western Scrub-jays. The bird pictured at the
link below only appears brighter and darker than a typical juvenile
scrub-jay but I wonder if the color and contrast are artifacts of
photography and digitalization. What do others think of this bird? I
don't recall seeing details of this bird and it's parentage published
anywhere beyond the internet. If I have time, I will try to dig up
details from archives of the various listserves.

A hybrid combination involving Cyanocitta and Aphelocoma has been
reported before. A photo of a hybrid C. cristata (Blue Jay) x A.
coerulescens (Florida Scrub-jay) appeared in Living Bird a few years
back, and I've tried to find the reference of the  record in the
literature and have not been successful. If anyone has a citation for
this record and could pass it on, I'd much appreciate it.

Alan

> A hybrid was reported in 1999 in Washington.  See:
> http://www.wos.org/WNComp62.htm#STJA
--
Alan J. Knue
bluejay(AT)surfbirder.com

Seattle, WA, USA


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Glaucous Gull - bill pigments
From: Frode Falkenberg <falken(AT)SISYFOS.ZOO.UIB.NO>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 5:45pm

Hi all!

I surfed by the irishbirding site the other day, and found a picture of a
putative 1cy Glaucous Gull. It looks pretty classical, except from the
bill. The cutting edges are dark. Two years ago a similar 2cy was
photographed in May in Northern Norway. We presumed it was a hybrid.

My question is - how variable are Glaucous Gull bill colors. I have not
found any other similar pictures on the web, in Grant's Gull book, or in
the new Gulls by Malling Olsen. Could this be a result of Herring Gull
introgression?

The two above mentioned birds are depicted here:

First-winter, Nimmo's Pier, Co. Galway, Ireland 23 December 2004:
http://irishbirding.com/wglaucousmd1422.jpeg

First summer, Gimsoy, Vaagan, Nordland, Norway 12 May 2002:
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ufo/hybrid_1w_16.php

All the best,

Frode Falkenberg, Norway


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull - bill pigments
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 6:00pm

I would agree these are hybrids. I would certainly call them that over
here. At least in the W. USA it's not uncommon for hybrids to show
perfect Glaucous Gull bills since smithsonianus has a tendency to
develop extensive pale to much of the bill at an early age.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Frode Falkenberg
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:44 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Glaucous Gull - bill pigments

Hi all!

I surfed by the irishbirding site the other day, and found a picture of
a
putative 1cy Glaucous Gull. It looks pretty classical, except from the
bill. The cutting edges are dark. Two years ago a similar 2cy was
photographed in May in Northern Norway. We presumed it was a hybrid.

My question is - how variable are Glaucous Gull bill colors. I have not
found any other similar pictures on the web, in Grant's Gull book, or in
the new Gulls by Malling Olsen. Could this be a result of Herring Gull
introgression?

The two above mentioned birds are depicted here:

First-winter, Nimmo's Pier, Co. Galway, Ireland 23 December 2004:
http://irishbirding.com/wglaucousmd1422.jpeg

First summer, Gimsoy, Vaagan, Nordland, Norway 12 May 2002:
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ufo/hybrid_1w_16.php

All the best,

Frode Falkenberg, Norway


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 6:21pm

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:52:31 -0800, "Alan J. Knue" <bluejay(AT)SURFBIRDER.COM>
wrote:

>A hybrid combination involving Cyanocitta and Aphelocoma has been
>reported before. A photo of a hybrid C. cristata (Blue Jay) x A.
>coerulescens (Florida Scrub-jay) appeared in Living Bird a few years
>back, and I've tried to find the reference of the  record in the
>literature and have not been successful. If anyone has a citation for
>this record and could pass it on, I'd much appreciate it.

A very useful bibliographic reference to bird hybrids is online at:

http://www.bird-hybrids.com/

Using the search feature finds the reference as:

Morgan M.C., and Morgan A. 1997. A case of hybridization. Living Bird 16:33

...along with the fact that the hybrid was from captivity.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044  jmorlan (at) ccsf.org
Birding Classes in SF start Feb.8  http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee  http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Glaucous Gull bill colors
From: "Paul E. Lehman" <lehman.paul(AT)VERIZON.NET>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 7:13pm

IDFrontiers:

I have seen a fair number of otherwise typical-looking first-year
Glaucous Gulls in North America (including in California) that show a
bit (line) of dark extending back along the cutting edge of the bill.
The birds in the photos mentioned in this post look pretty close to
that, and, again, those European birds otherwise look like typical
Glaucous. I know that I, and the other birders with me at the time, have
ID'd such birds as Glaucous Gulls, and not as hybrids. Whether such
darkness is simply permissible variation within this species, or is a
residual juvenile character (juvenile Glaucous Gulls even in September
can still have up to 90 percent of their bills DARK, and I see birds
like this regularly in the northern Bering Sea during this month), so
perhaps that bit along the cutting edge later into the winter is the
last of the juvenal dark to disappear on some birds (?). Then again,
maybe some of these birds later in the season with the dark cutting-edge
ARE hybrids, but I tend to think mostly not. I would think such hybrids
would show other, plumage characters as well that would suggest such.

Paul Lehman


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull - bill pigments
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 8:40pm

>I have seen a fair number of otherwise typical-looking first-year
>Glaucous Gulls in North America (including in California) that show a
>bit (line) of dark extending back along the cutting edge of the bill.

In Oregon I also see otherwise pure-looking Glaucous with a 'bit'
of dark extending back along the cutting edge, and I usually don't
think too much about them. However in my experience looking
closely at Glaucous-types here (at least in/after December) I've
found that the greater the extent of the cutting edge black, the
more likely it is that the bird will on close inspection show other
characteristics that are questionable for Glaucous, such as
exceptionally dark belly, strange hybrid-like proportions,
borderline dark primaries etc.

As Paul says they may not all be hybrids, but I have the very
strong impression that at least the majority of birds showing
so much dark along the cutting edge so late in the year as these
European gulls do are more likely to be intergrades.

For example relating to the below Dec bird, the entire bill base
seems exceptionally dusky compared to otherwise pure-appearing
Glaucous I see in Oregon in Dec or later, the bird seems somewhat
heavily marked and solid overall even for a dark-end Glaucous, the tail
may be very dark and solid-banded (hard to see), and it appears to be
molting into mostly solid immature gray-brown color 2nd-gen upper
scaps. Since it's only one photo I wouldn't bet anything valuable on
this not being a pure Glaucous, but IMO it is much more likely to be
part Herring, and assuming argentatus it might even be mostly Herring.

Cheers,

Phil

> First-winter, Nimmo's Pier, Co. Galway, Ireland 23 December 2004:
> http://irishbirding.com/wglaucousmd1422.jpeg


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Tricky gull in Rochester, NH 12/30/04.
From: "James P. Smith" <keenbirder(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 8:58pm

Hi birders,

Thanks very much to everyone who offered comments on
this gull at Rochester, NH;

http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/de_uid_gull.html

The overwhelming feeback has been very much in favor
of a 2nd-winter smithsonianus.

>Why is this not a 2nd-winter California?  Bill's
pretty short, of course,
>but otherwise? Nice primary extension. Albertaensis?

The field impression was vaguely suggestive of
California Gull, but I more or less talked myself out
it on the spot due to the rather short bill, pinkish
legs and mantle/scaps color which I thought was a bit
on the light side for California Gull. I�m comfortable
with the idea of 2nd-winter Smithsonianus but thanks
to you all for your comments.

The same site has recently held good numbers of
Glaucous Gulls, so on the subject of bill
pattern/pigmentation some of the images within these
pages maybe of interest.

http://keenbirding.com/Gulls/Glaucs.html

http://keenbirding.com/Gulls2/GlaucousGulls.html

Good birding,

James P. Smith
Keene, NH.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull - bill pigments
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 10:46pm

> http://irishbirding.com/wglaucousmd1422.jpeg

Was informed that European juv Glaucous can be darker (avg
darker?) than most juv in the Pacific Northwest (I know fresh NA
juveniles can be fairly dark, but I rarely see birds near this dark
and solid overall in Oregon in Dec.), so that apparently isn't an issue.

I still wonder if there is any atypical scap molt going on, and also
if there's anything abnormal about the noticeably jumbled, irregular
medium/lesser covert patterning that might suggest a correlation
with the dusky bill and introgression at some level with argentatus.

Cheers,

Phil


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Molt-migration in American Redstarts: Article in
         Science
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd(AT)ABA.ORG>
Date: 4 Jan 2005 11:35pm

Hello, birders.

Honest!--I've long wondered what's up with plumage variation in adult
male American Redstarts on fall migration. Turns out it's pretty
complex, and very cool. An article in this week's Science reports the
following:

  * Male redstarts that breed early molt on the breeding grounds,
according to conventional wisdom.

  * Male redstarts that breed later molt during fall migration through
the eastern United States.

  * The farther south (i.e., later) they molt, the less orangey their
feathers are.

  * The less orangey their feathers are, the less successful they are at
breeding the following year.

As usual, there are two major players here:

  * Use of stable isotopes to confirm the results.

  * A role for carotenoids in plumage expression.

Mild rant: How come F-IDers appear generally unaware of (a) the
influence of diet on plumage variation in birds and especially (b) the
stable isotope revolution?

A gripe about the news article that accompanies the main article in
science: According to the news article, "Analysis of stable-hydrogen
isotopes in feathers is the only technique by which this striking
pattern could have been revealed--there is essentially no chance of
finding and accessing individual study birds during migration, even with
radio telemetry." Admittedly, this result had gone undetected until
stable isotope analysis of the phenomenon. But I do suspect that careful
birders in the field should be able to discern it, now that we know what
we're looking for.

Citations:

  * Norris, D.R., P.P. Marra, R. Montgomerie, T.K. Kyser, and L.M.
Ratcliffe. 2004. Reproductive effort, molting latitude, and feather
color in a migratory songbird. Science 306:2249-2250.

  * Hill, G.E. 2004. A head start for some redstarts. Science
306:2201-2202.

Also, the cover painting of an adult male American Redstart bringing a
lepidopteran to two barely fledged juveniles is by J.P. O'Neill, who
should be known to many F-IDers.

Finally, two other recent articles in Science that deal not directly
with ID but nonetheless with phenomena that careful birders can observe
in the field:

  * Videler, J.J., E.J. Stanhuis, and G.D.E. Povel. 2004. Leading-edge
vortex lifts swifts. Science 306:1960-1962. The article begins with this
jarring declaration: "The current understanding of how birds fly must be
revised[.]"

  * Emery, N.J., and N.S. Clayton. 2004. The mentality of crows:
Convergent evolution of intelligence in corvids and apes. Science
306:1903-1907. I have to confess, I've long been skeptical of the
various claims of corvid intelligence. I still am, but this article
comes the closest yet to persuading me otherwise.

----------------------------

Ted Floyd

Editor,
Birding

American Birding Association
P.O. Box 7974
Boulder, Colorado 80306-7974

303-444-6365
tedfloyd(AT)aba.org

Please visit the website of the
American Birding Association:
http://www.americanbirding.org


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill colors
From: Luke Cole <luke(AT)IGC.ORG>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 10:49am

Paul and IDers:

We had a Glaucous Gull-type here in San Francisco during the winter of
2002-2003 that had pronounced black along the cutting edge to back
behind the nostril, well into January, though it began to look like a
more "traditional" Glaucous bill by March.  At the time we called it a
"Glaucous X ??" but perhaps it was in the range of Glaucous-ness.

Photo of the January bill pattern is at
http://www.lukecole.com/Birds/glaucous%20gull%20bills.htm

Luke

Luke Cole

San Francisco, CA
luke(AT)igc.org


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay
From: Jeff Davis <jndavis(AT)NETPTC.NET>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 10:50am

It may be a mistake that the bird hybrids database shows this hybrid was
from captivity. The Blue Jay BNA account (1999) by Tarvin and Woolfenden
says, "First evidence of hybridization with Aphelocoma (Florida Scrub-Jay
[A. coerulescens]) obtained in 1996 from a locality where only one scrub-jay
remained (Morgan and Morgan 1997). One of three 1996 hybrids observed 1 yr
later."

That sure sounds like they were wild birds.

Jeff Davis
Prather, CA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Morlan" <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] PHOTOS: hybrid Steller's x Western Scrub Jay

> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:52:31 -0800, "Alan J. Knue" <bluejay(AT)SURFBIRDER.COM>
> wrote:
>
>>A hybrid combination involving Cyanocitta and Aphelocoma has been
>>reported before. A photo of a hybrid C. cristata (Blue Jay) x A.
>>coerulescens (Florida Scrub-jay) appeared in Living Bird a few years
>>back, and I've tried to find the reference of the  record in the
>>literature and have not been successful. If anyone has a citation for
>>this record and could pass it on, I'd much appreciate it.
>
> A very useful bibliographic reference to bird hybrids is online at:
>
> http://www.bird-hybrids.com/
>
> Using the search feature finds the reference as:
>
> Morgan M.C., and Morgan A. 1997. A case of hybridization. Living Bird
> 16:33
>
> ...along with the fact that the hybrid was from captivity.
>
>
>
> --
> Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044  jmorlan (at) ccsf.org
> Birding Classes in SF start Feb.8  http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/
> California Bird Records Committee  http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/2004


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill colors
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 12:26pm

>We had a Glaucous Gull-type here in San Francisco during the winter of
>2002-2003 that had pronounced black along the cutting edge to back
>behind the nostril, well into January, though it began to look like a
>more "traditional" Glaucous bill by March.  At the time we called it a
>"Glaucous X ??" but perhaps it was in the range of Glaucous-ness.
>Photo of the January bill pattern is at
>http://www.lukecole.com/Birds/glaucous%20gull%20bills.htm

If anyone wishes to study this further, the Japanese gull site has an
entire page of "Iceland-like" juv Glaucous, most showing varying
degrees of non-classical Glaucous bills at (below the adults) -

http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/030222/ba9.html

Not sure how to interpret what this shows, or how much
introgression with Glaucous-winged might (or might not) be involved.
The percentage of Glaucous-types on the Japanese site as a
whole with unclassical bills seems remarkably high compared to
what I see in Oregon.

One possiblity I hadn't considered is that darker juvenile Glaucous
might also tend to have higher dark bill pigment saturation and
take longer to fade. That could potentially mimic at least a few of
the correlations I'm interpreting as introgression with G-w here
in Oregon.

Still I don't recall ever seeing a structurally classic Glaucous that
had such an unclassical bill at such a late date as some of these birds
do. Also it looks like Glaucous and G-w breeding ranges overlap
such that the vast majority of birds originating in the overlap zone
would winter in Asia, so it may be that population-wide introgression
is much more rampant among wintering birds there than here.
Unknowable without genetic or breeding ground studies I realize,
but I find the possible pattern interesting.

Cheers,

Phil


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Molt-migration in American Redstarts: Article
          in Science
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 1:30pm

What is also cool about this is that in fits in with some of the old
behavioral ecology ideas proposed long before SIA was available. This
proposes an actual mechanism explaining what many had noted as banders
and in the field- that some adult male Redstarts are more orange; I
have  just assumed that these were older birds, looking at the
continuum from the 100's of first fall males we encountered with their
barely washed yellow-orange sides to the really black and pumpkin
orange males, which in Wisconsin pass through in late September and
early October. The young of the year in the Midwest have a peak around
Labor Day. So this plumage progression probably becomes a badge of age
and fitness as earlier breeders are those that can establish
territories successfully and survive the earliest migration and are
there when females arrive later in May to find these really sexy (very
orange), FIT, males waiting. I would imagine that generally the most
successful breeders are older birds altho this is not indicated by
Ted's summary or could a super first summer male breed and then moult
early and become a orangey adult male by 2nd winter? But is this
progression to more orangey males diet related or age related; are
they assuming that if you moult later and more southerly that there is
a dietary limitation to obtaining orange plumage? -are they sure that
this is just not age related? Also, are they referring to body moult
AND flight feather moult?

As for Ted's rant- I don't think that we have enough of a results base
yet from SIA and any correlation of plumage to geographic origin to
apply to our current ID interests- that's coming in a SIA field guide
in about 50 years (Cheshire Cat smile). Can you imagine trying to use
SIA to correlate the origins of 1st basic smith. HERGs across its N Am
range to look at plumage variation? The Gr Lakes are a virtual melting
pot for many of these variants for 7 months of the year. How would you
trap these birds in any meaningful numbers short of mass murder? I
have heard that cannon netting is not very productive or safe with
larids. If any of you have access to the European banding techniques
book by Bub and Bub there is a very entertaining picture of a trapper
dressed in a suit that has typical landfill garbage attached to it;
the trapper lies in wait like a praying mantis until the gulls come
close and he grabs them- applied aggressive mimicry at its finest. And
what we really would want are both feather and DNA samples of the
Thayer's and Kumlien's (weird looking RBGU's and any canus too) that
come into the landfills with the HERG's- you'd be lucky to catch one
per week.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Floyd" <tedfloyd(AT)ABA.ORG>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:35 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Molt-migration in American Redstarts: Article in
Science

> Hello, birders.
>
> Honest!--I've long wondered what's up with plumage variation in
> adult
> male American Redstarts on fall migration. Turns out it's pretty
> complex, and very cool. An article in this week's Science reports
> the
> following:
>
>  * Male redstarts that breed early molt on the breeding grounds,
> according to conventional wisdom.
>
>  * Male redstarts that breed later molt during fall migration
> through
> the eastern United States.
>
>  * The farther south (i.e., later) they molt, the less orangey their
> feathers are.
>
>  * The less orangey their feathers are, the less successful they are
> at
> breeding the following year.
>
> As usual, there are two major players here:
>
>  * Use of stable isotopes to confirm the results.
>
>  * A role for carotenoids in plumage expression.
>
> Mild rant: How come F-IDers appear generally unaware of (a) the
> influence of diet on plumage variation in birds and especially (b)
> the
> stable isotope revolution?
>
> A gripe about the news article that accompanies the main article in
> science: According to the news article, "Analysis of stable-hydrogen
> isotopes in feathers is the only technique by which this striking
> pattern could have been revealed--there is essentially no chance of
> finding and accessing individual study birds during migration, even
> with
> radio telemetry." Admittedly, this result had gone undetected until
> stable isotope analysis of the phenomenon. But I do suspect that
> careful
> birders in the field should be able to discern it, now that we know
> what
> we're looking for.
>
> Citations:
>
>  * Norris, D.R., P.P. Marra, R. Montgomerie, T.K. Kyser, and L.M.
> Ratcliffe. 2004. Reproductive effort, molting latitude, and feather
> color in a migratory songbird. Science 306:2249-2250.
>
>  * Hill, G.E. 2004. A head start for some redstarts. Science
> 306:2201-2202.
>
> Also, the cover painting of an adult male American Redstart bringing
> a
> lepidopteran to two barely fledged juveniles is by J.P. O'Neill, who
> should be known to many F-IDers.
>
> Finally, two other recent articles in Science that deal not directly
> with ID but nonetheless with phenomena that careful birders can
> observe
> in the field:
>
>  * Videler, J.J., E.J. Stanhuis, and G.D.E. Povel. 2004.
> Leading-edge
> vortex lifts swifts. Science 306:1960-1962. The article begins with
> this
> jarring declaration: "The current understanding of how birds fly
> must be
> revised[.]"
>
>  * Emery, N.J., and N.S. Clayton. 2004. The mentality of crows:
> Convergent evolution of intelligence in corvids and apes. Science
> 306:1903-1907. I have to confess, I've long been skeptical of the
> various claims of corvid intelligence. I still am, but this article
> comes the closest yet to persuading me otherwise.
>
> ----------------------------
>
> Ted Floyd
>
> Editor,
> Birding
>
> American Birding Association
> P.O. Box 7974
> Boulder, Colorado 80306-7974
>
> 303-444-6365
> tedfloyd(AT)aba.org
>
> Please visit the website of the
> American Birding Association:
> http://www.americanbirding.org
>


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill colors
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 2:16pm

I used to look at a lot of gulls when I lived in the south San Francisco
Bay area where there are 20,000 HEGUs wintering and a few GLGU are
annual. My impression was that hybrids GL x HEGU were about as common as
real GLGUs. Often these would have some dark in the primaries,
secondaries or tail to confirm the id. Typically they would show a
perfect GLGU bill. I suspect GWGU x GLGU is even more likely to show the
dark cutting edges. Other than bill it would very hard to decide if one
was a pure GLGU, at least in 1W.

In reality, it's impossible to determine the range of variation in pure
species, because all these gulls hybridize. With rarer species, I think
the best policy to only count classic birds.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Luke Cole
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:49 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Glaucous Gull bill colors

Paul and IDers:

We had a Glaucous Gull-type here in San Francisco during the winter of
2002-2003 that had pronounced black along the cutting edge to back
behind the nostril, well into January, though it began to look like a
more "traditional" Glaucous bill by March.  At the time we called it a
"Glaucous X ??" but perhaps it was in the range of Glaucous-ness.

Photo of the January bill pattern is at
http://www.lukecole.com/Birds/glaucous%20gull%20bills.htm

Luke

Luke Cole

San Francisco, CA
luke(AT)igc.org


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill colors
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 5:43pm

Phillip Pickering wrote:> If anyone wishes to study this further, the
Japanese gull site has an
> entire page of "Iceland-like" juv Glaucous, most showing varying
> degrees of non-classical Glaucous bills at (below the adults) -
>
> http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/030222/ba9.html

Well Phil, if these Glaucous are the size of Icelands then surely the gull
next to this one must a 'dwarf' heuglini?

http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/030222/bad030113.html

Cheers, Norman


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: more pics of the unusual Western-type Empid in
         south Texas
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 7:40pm

Dear all,
Some of you expressed interest in any more photos of the non-Hammond's
empid at the Halff Brothers Ranch south of San Antonio, Texas.  Well, I
finally got more pics today, and again heard it call - but it only calls
sparingly, making it difficult to record.  The new pics are at the bottom
of this page:
http://www.martinreid.com/empid6.html
I expect that my sense that this individual is unusual for a Western
Flycatcher, is directly tied to my very limited experience with
them.  Nonetheless, I'd appreciate some feedback concerning the features i
consider odd, namely:
- the long primary projection.
- the black legs.
- the narrowish bill
- the tail fork

The few recordings of Pine Fly I have been able to listen-to all are of
quite low-pitched sounds, while this bird consistently uses a two-syllable
high-pitched call. Thus it is not likely to be a Pine Fly, despite the
features listed above that are suggestive of this.  Of course, I don't know
to what extent the *trepidus* populaton of the northern Sierra Madre
Oriental differ from the more western/southern Pine Flys that are the
source of the sound recordings.
All in all an interesting individual.  Assuming for the moment it is a
Western Fly, does the consistent use of the two-note call provide any clues
as to which kind of Western it is??
Thanks for any input you care to share,
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Unusual Hybrid in Idaho
From: "J. Harry Krueger" <hkrueger(AT)cableone.net>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 8:29pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Here is an interesting pair of photos I received recently.  This bird has
been coming to a feeder in northern Idaho, and by some that have seen the
bird it is presumed to be a Ring-necked Pheasant x Blue Grouse...which to my
knowledge would be extremely unusual.  An attempt to get a feather from the
bird for DNA analysis has been attempted without success.  I would welcome
any comments.

http://www.idahobirds.net/photo/photo.html

Harry Krueger
Boise, ID

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Gull Bills
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 5 Jan 2005 9:31pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Greetings All

I think casting a gull as a Glaucous x something because the black/pink
demarcation is not sharp is a mistake.

Just this weekend I saw a 3rd (or perhaps 4th?) winter GW Gull with a bill
that was mostly black. I've seen a 1st basic Herring Gull with a bill that was
largely yellow. The amount of pink and black in most immature large gulls is
highly variable, and as Paul Lehman pointed out, juv Glaucous Gulls have
considerably more black on the bill than 1st winters. I'd expect some
variability in
amount and shape of black in a 1st winter GLGU.

If the bird truly is a hybrid, there should be other marks askew. If the bird
looks like a typical 1st winter GLGU but has some black on the cutting edge,
I'd bet a lot of money it's a GLGU.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Unusual Hybrid in Idaho
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 10:41pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Harry

    Maybe this is some kind of captive bred thing, the pheasant people
apparently like to cross their birds with anything. If it is a wild cross,
have you considered Sage Grouse as the other parent? Sage Grouse and Blue
Grouse are actually pretty closely related from what I recall, more so than
Blue and Spruce grouse. There are jizz/pattern aspects of this bird that
make me think Sage Grouse. What is the habitat like where it is being seen?
As well, in the wild I would imagine that a pheasant is much more likely to
come across Sage Grouse than Blue Grouse.

Cheers

Al

Alvaro Jaramillo

chucao(AT)coastside.net

Half Moon Bay, CA

Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm

  _____

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of J. Harry Krueger
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 7:30 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Unusual Hybrid in Idaho

Here is an interesting pair of photos I received recently.  This bird has
been coming to a feeder in northern Idaho, and by some that have seen the
bird it is presumed to be a Ring-necked Pheasant x Blue Grouse...which to my
knowledge would be extremely unusual.  An attempt to get a feather from the
bird for DNA analysis has been attempted without success.  I would welcome
any comments.

http://www.idahobirds.net/photo/photo.html

Harry Krueger

Boise, ID

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Unusual Hybrid in Idaho
From: "J. Harry Krueger" <hkrueger(AT)cableone.net>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 11:26pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

More info, as I have received it, is that the person who found this bird and
photgraphed it is a researcher on Sage Grouse from North Dakota...you would
figure that he should have some knowledge of the Phasianidae family.  The
area where the bird was found is far removed from Sage Grouse country, but
is within range for Blue Grouse.  Personally I  would not rule out an exotic
crossbreed.  It does not conform to any legitimate species that I have been
made aware of.
Are there even any instances of Ring-necked Pheasant hybridization with
grouse that anyone is aware of?

Harry Krueger
Boise, ID
hkrueger(AT)cableone.net

  _____

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alvaro
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 10:41 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Unusual Hybrid in Idaho

Harry

    Maybe this is some kind of captive bred thing, the pheasant people
apparently like to cross their birds with anything. If it is a wild cross,
have you considered Sage Grouse as the other parent? Sage Grouse and Blue
Grouse are actually pretty closely related from what I recall, more so than
Blue and Spruce grouse. There are jizz/pattern aspects of this bird that
make me think Sage Grouse. What is the habitat like where it is being seen?
As well, in the wild I would imagine that a pheasant is much more likely to
come across Sage Grouse than Blue Grouse.

Cheers

Al

Alvaro Jaramillo

chucao(AT)coastside.net

Half Moon Bay, CA

Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm

  _____

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of J. Harry Krueger
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 7:30 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Unusual Hybrid in Idaho

Here is an interesting pair of photos I received recently.  This bird has
been coming to a feeder in northern Idaho, and by some that have seen the
bird it is presumed to be a Ring-necked Pheasant x Blue Grouse...which to my
knowledge would be extremely unusual.  An attempt to get a feather from the
bird for DNA analysis has been attempted without success.  I would welcome
any comments.

http://www.idahobirds.net/photo/photo.html

Harry Krueger

Boise, ID

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Unusual Hybrid in Idaho
From: Mark Stackhouse <westwings(AT)SISNA.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 12:42am

That certainly is an unusual bird, but I have a hard time imagining how
it could possibly be a grouse (of any kind) X pheasant. I don't see
much about this bird that looks particularly grouse-like and would
strongly suspect a captive-produced pheasant cross of some sort, such
as Silver X Common/Ring-necked Pheasant. As Al suggests, pheasant
breeders often produce odd crosses between pheasants. It seems to me
that it would be extremely unlikely, verging on the impossible, for
this to be a wild-produced hybrid with a grouse. Consider the
following:

1) Grouse and pheasants aren't particularly closely related, and it may
be biologically impossible for them to produce a hybrid (I've never
heard of one).

2) Even if it were possible, it's hard to imagine how, given the
extremely specialized courtship and mating systems of all grouse, a
wild mating could take place. Does anyone know of even grouse X grouse
hybrids?

3) Habitats frequented by Ring-necked Pheasants in the west don't
overlap, at least in the breeding season, with any of the grouse
species. Both Sage and Blue Grouse will enter agricultural land, but
generally after the breeding season in late summer, especially in dry
years.

So could this bird be a captive-produced grouse X pheasant? Not likely
either, as grouse are notoriously hard to keep alive in captivity, and
almost unknown among private aviculturalists. I strongly suspect that
one would have better luck finding the parents of this oddity in the
Field Guide to the Birds of China than in a North American guide.

Mark Stackhouse
Westwings, Inc.
westwings(AT)sisna.com
801-487-9453 (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA)
011-52-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico)


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Unusual Hybrid in Idaho
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 2:21am

> Are there even any instances of Ring-necked Pheasant hybridization with
> grouse that anyone is aware of?
>

According to the bird-hybrids.com database, an apparent hybrid Ring-necked
Pheasant x Blue Grouse was described from nature by G.E. Hudson in Condor
57:5 (1955).
The database also lists interbreeding of Ring-necked Pheasant with species
such as Hazel Grouse (captivity), Ruffed Grouse (nature), Sooty Grouse
(nature), Red Grouse (captivity), Willow Ptarmigan (captivity), Rock
Ptarmigan (captivity), Black Grouse (nature), Capercaillie (nature), and
even more fantastic partners like Wild Turkey (captivity), Domestic Fowl
(captivity), Red Junglefowl (captivity), Helmeted Guineafowl (captivity),
Indean Peafowl (capt.), Grey Partridge (capt.), Greater Prairie-chicken
(nature), and so on.
Impressive...!

Peter


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Pheasant hybrids
From: J H <jhvsteenis(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 2:23am

Dear all,

To get an idea of the hybridization potential of the Common Pheasant, visit
the bird hybrid database (www.bird-hybrids.com).
In nature, hybrids have been noted with Sooty and Blue Grouse, Black Grouse,
Western Capercaillie and Greater Prairiechicken! In captivity, the list is
even more impressive...

Kind regards,

Jan Hein van Steenis,
The Netherlands

_________________________________________________________________
Nooit ongewenste berichten ontvangen: gebruik MSN Messenger
http://messenger.msn.nl/


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Grouse hybrids
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 2:27am

>
> 2) Even if it were possible, it's hard to imagine how, given the
> extremely specialized courtship and mating systems of all grouse, a
> wild mating could take place. Does anyone know of even grouse X grouse
> hybrids?
>

Again: go to
http://www.bird-hybrids.com/engine.php?search=grouse&searchby=nomenclature&nomenclature=sibley&family=ALL
and you will be surprised!


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Gull Bills
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 9:47am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

My concern with taking this approach is you need to understand the %s to
some extent. For example, Paul Lehman commented he had had seen several
birds like this in S. Cal, where GLGU is rare. For example I live in
Goleta where Paul used to live and there have been no GLGUs in the
county in the four years I've been here to my knowledge. Therefore it
sounds like an appreciable % of the birds he is claiming are GLGU have
dark in the bill. This sounds suspicious to me. For example, if we take
the example of CAGU or Black-tailed Gull, both of which have a similar
1W bill pattern, I have rarely seen birds with extensive black in the
black past the end of October. It certainly happen but my guess would be
that it's in the 1-2% or even much less range. This is where we really
need some study based on known banded 1Y form pure colonies to
understand variation.

=20

Also, I don't think people are factoring in the GLGU x GWGU situation. I
understand these interbreed and it seems it would be very difficult to
distinguish hybrids 1W birds. The only feature I can imagine would bill
shape but this would often not be obvious. I would also argue that this
is most likely combo to produce a bird with a lot of black in the bill
(at least in N. America) since smithsoinianus x GLGU often seems to show
a GLGU bill pattern.

=20

  _____ =20

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 8:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Gull Bills

=20

Greetings All

I think casting a gull as a Glaucous x something because the black/pink
demarcation is not sharp is a mistake.

Just this weekend I saw a 3rd (or perhaps 4th?) winter GW Gull with a
bill that was mostly black. I've seen a 1st basic Herring Gull with a
bill that was largely yellow. The amount of pink and black in most
immature large gulls is highly variable, and as Paul Lehman pointed out,
juv Glaucous Gulls have considerably more black on the bill than 1st
winters. I'd expect some variability in amount and shape of black in a
1st winter GLGU.

If the bird truly is a hybrid, there should be other marks askew. If the
bird looks like a typical 1st winter GLGU but has some black on the
cutting edge, I'd bet a lot of money it's a GLGU.=20

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Gull Bills
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 9:54am

> I think casting a gull as a Glaucous x something because the black/pink
> demarcation is not sharp is a mistake.

I totally agree, but at the same time I think by convention extending
that and saying that extensive black along the cutting edge in mid-late
winter is within the range of genetically pure Glaucous also isn't safe.
As Nick pointed out, if it is typically the result of Glaucous-winged
genes, I don't think you can necessarily assume that the introgression
would always be expressed in other obvious ways. For one, the features
that otherwise define Glaucous may be dominant, leaving older 'mostly'
Glaucous intergrades indistinguishable from pure birds. Also as hinted
at yesterday I see the possibility of a pattern where the frequency of
1st-cycle Glaucous with obviously non-classical bills may correspond
directly to populations overlapping with G-w breeding range.

Which leads to the question of how frequently do NA east coast Glaucous
that otherwise show no signs at all of Herring influence have extensive
black along the cutting edge in Dec or later? At least based on photo
study vs. personal experience here it appears that west coast Glaucous
show this much more frequently. Also it appears that it occurs much
more frequently and typically to greater extent in "barrovianus"-shaped
birds (which trend structurally towards G-w) than in larger, structurally
more classic birds, at least in Oregon.

Then you have the large photo sample of the Japanese gull site where
the *majority* of what they are calling 1st-cycle Glaucous have non-
classical bills (and as a whole also trend structurally towards G-w).

If there is a pattern there certainly it could be due to normal variation
between populations. But at the same time I can't so easily discount
the possibility of Thayer's/Iceland type introgression to some extent
between Glaucous and G-w resulting in a lot of 1st-cycle "mostly"
Glaucous with non-classical bills. We know for a fact that they
interbreed, and it follows that there also could be a very complex
introgressed situation going on, and going on for a long time, that
we haven't fully tapped into yet.

edit - I just saw Nick's post before sending this, so pardon if some
of the points are redundant.

Cheers,

Phil


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Glaucous Gull Bills
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 6 Jan 2005 10:50am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Greetings All

Firstly-- on the point of gene introgression. Is there truly a "pure" large
gull out there anywhere, with no genes from another species?

Secondly-- There are several ways of separating 1st winter GLGU from GWGU
besides bill. There's primary pattern and wing covert pattern for starters. As
some might not feel comfortable identifying a bird as a "pure" GLGU if the bill
is not sharply bicolored, I do not feel comfortable labelling a bird as a GLGU
x GWGU unless other marks are intermediate.

Thirdly-- Don't forget observer bias. People look at fine details of birds
far more closely if they're presumed vagrants. In the species' main range, how
many scour GLGU bill patterns like one would if the bird was in CA?

And last--- I disagree with Nick. I see substantial variation in precise bill
pattern on young CA gulls throughout the year. I don't see why GLGU are the
only large gull with an invariable bill pattern (to a such a precise degree,
other than that's the way we define it).

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: grouse x pheasant hybrids
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 10:55am

HI:
 Here's a link to a pdf file for the Hudson (1955) hybrid paper:

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Condor/files/issues/v057n05/p0304-p0304.pdf

--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull Bills
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 11:08am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

While I agree that most GWGU have darker primaries and dirty washed out
converts and scaps, a substantial minority (at least in CA) show pretty
white primaries and, to a lesser extent, checkering on the upperparts
rather similar to a Thayer's Gull and some GLGUs have. Also remember
that often we're comparing 1W GWGU with juv GLGU which exaggerates
potential differences in scapular/covert patterns. I do agree that these
will still be distinctive in many birds but my point is that many GWGU x
GLGU would show white primaries, no tail band, etc and not be obviously
detectable.

=20

I will look at some CAGU in detail and try and come up with some numbers
on bill patterns.

=20

  _____ =20

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:51 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Glaucous Gull Bills

=20

Greetings All

Firstly-- on the point of gene introgression. Is there truly a "pure"
large gull out there anywhere, with no genes from another species?=20

Secondly-- There are several ways of separating 1st winter GLGU from
GWGU besides bill. There's primary pattern and wing covert pattern for
starters. As some might not feel comfortable identifying a bird as a
"pure" GLGU if the bill is not sharply bicolored, I do not feel
comfortable labelling a bird as a GLGU x GWGU unless other marks are
intermediate.

Thirdly-- Don't forget observer bias. People look at fine details of
birds far more closely if they're presumed vagrants. In the species'
main range, how many scour GLGU bill patterns like one would if the bird
was in CA?

And last--- I disagree with Nick. I see substantial variation in precise
bill pattern on young CA gulls throughout the year. I don't see why GLGU
are the only large gull with an invariable bill pattern (to a such a
precise degree, other than that's the way we define it).

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Grouse hybrids
From: Mark Stackhouse <westwings(AT)SISNA.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 11:27am

Thanks for the reference, Peter. It certainly is an impressive list,
but I am struck by the apparent infrequency of the occurrence of
hybrids in Blue and Sage-Grouse (though I should have picked up upon
the apparently unique instance of a hybrid between these species that
came from here in Utah).

For the 1932 Condor article, go to :

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Condor/issues/v034n04/index.php

For the 1955 Condor article, go to:

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Condor/issues/v057n05/index.php

I can't seem to find an online source for the 1977 Murrelet article.
The older articles are not too informative, and don't provide much
assistance in recognizing what these hybrids might look like. The
photos of the Idaho bird are difficult to evaluate in this context.

Mark Stackhouse
Westwings, Inc.
westwings(AT)sisna.com
801-487-9453 (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA)
011-52-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico)


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration
From: MIECHEL TABAK <mtabak(AT)SHAW.CA>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 11:40am

My own observations of Glaucous Gull bill coloration patterns suggests that
less than clean cut black tip is normal for 1st winter Glaucous Gulls. I
recently observed  four first winter Glaucous Gulls on the Niagara River
that showed a less than perfect clean cut demarcation between the black tip,
and the rest of the pale based bill. None of these birds showed any signs of
hybridization.                          In the Vancouver B.C. area,  I see
annually a few 1st basic Glaucous Gulls that show no signs of hybridization
to my eyes, with this less than perfect classic bill. I do see a few hybrid
Glaucous-Winged Gulls x Glaucous Gulls, and Glaucous x Herring Gulls, so am
aware of these hybrids, and looking for them, but I think we may be going
off on a hybrid tangent when we see micro differences and think hybrid
instead of simple variation.
cheers  Mike  Tabak


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 6 Jan 2005 11:53am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Hi all:

I have to agree with Mike Tabak.  We lariphiles allow tremendous latitude in
plumage features in our subjects and even note a huge range of variation in
bill pattern in some other young gulls (particularly smithsonianus Herring and
Lesser Black-backed gulls), so why can't we permit Glaucous Gull the tiniest of
bill-pattern variation?  While I agree that hybridization in gulls is
relatively common, I cannot believe that Glaucous Gulls in what we currently
term
first basic plumage ALWAYS have perfectly clean-cut bill patterns, particularly
when considering that in August and even into September, they have virtually
all-black bills (as I have seen in the Bering Sea).

Sincerely,

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull Bills
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 11:57am

> Secondly-- There are several ways of separating 1st winter GLGU from GWGU
> besides bill. There's primary pattern and wing covert pattern for starters

I don't disagree with Steve's points, but on this my impression is that
juvenile Glaucous-winged (at least northern ones that aren't so
introgressed with Western) actually can be pretty similar in pattern
to Glaucous - they just have a much more "filled-in" background
(tertial bases, scap/covert interiors, primary edges, tail). For
example when pale-end G-w start to fade in 2CY (and before they
totally bleach out) it's not uncommon for 'Glaucous-like' patterning
elements to become more obvious - faint tail marbling, isolated primary
tip spots, dark V's on the tips and whitish interiors to remaining
juv scaps, etc.

So I think it's a possiblity that at least some (if not most) intergrades
with lower background pigment saturation than is typical for G-w
would be tricky to detect on basis of juvenile plumage patterns.
Something I'll have to look at more closely, anyway.

Cheers,

Phil


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 2:27pm

I think Phil may be on to something here. At least he made
me realize that I give Glaucous Gull only a cursory look when
I see them,(juvs at least) after all they are big and white with 
a bi-colored bill, not too much of an ID challenge from an 
east-coast perspective. However I do not recall ever seeing 
black bleeding back along the cutting edges on the few dozen
juv Glaucous I have seen in the NJ/PA area, and though a pitiful
sample the 2 we have here in VIREO had clean cut bills.

Can someone clarify the winter ranges of the 4 GLGU subsp.
I assume it is nominate in western Europe and the UK, leucertes
along the east coast (and Great Lakes?), barrovianus on the 
west coast of North America (eastern Pacific) and pallidissimus 
in Northern Asia and Russia (western Pacific). This is infered from
Clements 5th ed.

Matt Sharp

Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA  19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 5:15pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_T73dOA4fvafCRaFJMBfLOw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

  Tony Leukering wrote:> I cannot believe that Glaucous Gulls in what we
currently term first basic plumage ALWAYS have perfectly clean-cut bill
patterns, particularly when considering that in August and even into September,
they have virtually all-black bills (as I have seen in the Bering Sea).<

  This is definitely not the case with nominate Glaucous, at least not to my
knowledge. Let me quote Jon Fjeldsa (Guide to the Young of European Precocial
Birds): 'bill heavy, greyish flesh-coloured with a distinct dusky border towards
 the distal part, which is buffish-pink in small young, black in large young;'
  So where do your Bering Sea birds come from? Did they have an 'Iceland' jizz
such as the gulls on the Japanese website? Could they perhaps represent a
hitherto undescribed species rather than another fictional hybrid?
  Norman

--Boundary_(ID_T73dOA4fvafCRaFJMBfLOw)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

----DELETED HTML-ENCODED SECTION----

--Boundary_(ID_T73dOA4fvafCRaFJMBfLOw)--


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration
From: Bruce Deuel <BDEUEL(AT)DFG.CA.GOV>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 5:39pm

I may be showing my ignorance here (not an infrequent event), but don't
I recall that barrovianus Glaucous Gulls  need to be carefully separated
out sizewise from Iceland Gulls on the west coast of North America?  And
wouldn't they be the source of the smallish Glaucous Gulls in Japan?

Bruce Deuel
Redding, CA

>>> "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL> 1/6/2005 4:15:14 PM
>>>

  Tony Leukering wrote:> I cannot believe that Glaucous Gulls in what
we currently term first basic plumage ALWAYS have perfectly clean-cut
bill patterns, particularly when considering that in August and even
into September, they have virtually all-black bills (as I have seen in
the Bering Sea).<

  This is definitely not the case with nominate Glaucous, at least not
to my knowledge. Let me quote Jon Fjeldsa (Guide to the Young of
European Precocial Birds): 'bill heavy, greyish flesh-coloured with a
distinct dusky border towards the distal part, which is buffish-pink in
small young, black in large young;'
  So where do your Bering Sea birds come from? Did they have an
'Iceland' jizz such as the gulls on the Japanese website? Could they
perhaps represent a hitherto undescribed species rather than another
fictional hybrid?
  Norman


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 5:43pm

>   So where do your Bering Sea birds come from? Did they have an 'Iceland'
jizz such as the gulls on the Japanese website? Could they perhaps represent
a hitherto undescribed species rather than another fictional hybrid?
>   Norman

Indeed! See page 215 in Olsen for mention of an undescribed taxon of a
"large pale gull from N Russia...similar to a large Iceland."
(But these were probably west of the area of discussion)

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Glaucous Gull bill coloration

>
>
>   Tony Leukering wrote:> I cannot believe that Glaucous Gulls in what we
currently term first basic plumage ALWAYS have perfectly clean-cut bill
patterns, particularly when considering that in August and even into
September, they have virtually all-black bills (as I have seen in the Bering
Sea).<
>
>   This is definitely not the case with nominate Glaucous, at least not to
my knowledge. Let me quote Jon Fjeldsa (Guide to the Young of European
Precocial Birds): 'bill heavy, greyish flesh-coloured with a distinct dusky
border towards the distal part, which is buffish-pink in small young, black
in large young;'
>   So where do your Bering Sea birds come from? Did they have an 'Iceland'
jizz such as the gulls on the Japanese website? Could they perhaps represent
a hitherto undescribed species rather than another fictional hybrid?
>   Norman
>


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Grouse X Pheasant
From: Ware Dean <peleeisbirder(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 5:56pm

All,

I am aviculturist/birder who owns both Grouse and Ring-necked pheasants. One
rule of thumb is to never keep Grouse and pheasants together one reason is
that pheasants will give a number of Diseases to Grouse which I may add are
very susceptible to such. So to have a breeder put these birds together in a
pen would be unheard of.  Not to mention the cost Ruffed Grouse are about
$300+pr.CDN., Blue $500+pr., Sharp-tailed $600pr. and so on. .. But to
double check one may look in the area for a breeder of these birds. Also to
have these birds one will needs a permit and there may be a record of
someone in the area by going to the local Natural Resources office.

I would have to say from the two Photos that is does look like an apparent
Hybrid of the two species mentioned.. I would love to see more photos of
this interesting bird. Perhaps this bird could be collected?

Dean Ware
ON. Canada
peleeisbirder(AT)hotmail.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 6 Jan 2005 6:29pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Greetings

Barrovianus Glaucous Gull is the Glaucous Gull of Beringia, and for the most
part, the west coast of Canada and the US.

Yes, it is smaller than nominate or eastern NA Glaucous Gull (some of the
ones I used to see in Chicago seemed HUGE). However, barrovianus is still a big
bird and a fair ways larger than Iceland, having seen a number in AK and
presumably a few down here in WA.

Given the wide geographical separation, it wouldn't surprise me if juv
barrovianus and nominate GLGUs had different bill colors.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull bill coloration
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 6 Jan 2005 9:51pm

Nesting pairs of this undescribed gull have supposedly been noted from
Novaya Zemlya in the Barents Sea just west of the Tamyr Peninsula; it looks
like the distance from here to Japan would be of similar lengths as that
traveled by hyperboreus and barrovianus in winter.
http://encarta.msn.com/map_701515232/Novaya_Zemlya.html

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Idzikowski" <idzikoj(AT)uwm.edu>
To: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>;
<BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Glaucous Gull bill coloration

> >   So where do your Bering Sea birds come from? Did they have an
'Iceland'
> jizz such as the gulls on the Japanese website? Could they perhaps
represent
> a hitherto undescribed species rather than another fictional hybrid?
> >   Norman
>
>
> Indeed! See page 215 in Olsen for mention of an undescribed taxon of a
> "large pale gull from N Russia...similar to a large Iceland."
> (But these were probably west of the area of discussion)
>
> John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
>


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Possible Black-headed X Ring-billed Gull?
From: Dave DeReamus <becard(AT)FAST.NET>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 1:56am

Hi all,

Devich Farbotnik asked me to post this information and a link to the photo
of a gull that he saw recently in Bucks County, eastern Pennsylvania.  He
would like to know if this bird possibly fits a Black-headed X Ring-billed
Gull hybrid or a Black-headed X Mew Gull hybrid.  He would appreciate any
input on what this gull may be.

It can be viewed by clicking on
http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/index8.html and then clicking on "Another
Bucks County Mystery Gull".

He noted that the base of the bird's bill appeared orange-pinkish and that
"the white spot on the primaries looked big".  Please respond directly to
him with your questions or comments at birdwatcher24_7(AT)yahoo.com.

Thanks and Good Birding,

Dave DeReamus
Compiler of the 'Eastern PA Birdline'
Easton, PA
becard(AT)fast.net
Eastern PA Birding Website:  http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/index.html


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: more on the unusual Western-type Empid in south
         Texas
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 6:11am

Dear all,
Further to my recent post about this empid:
http://www.martinreid.com/empid6.html
I have just listened to some recordings of the two Western Flycatcher
forms; PSFL and COFL.  the Frio County bird sounds just like the
clearly-two-note call of PSFL.  In Pyle et al's passerine ID guide it
mentions that on average the coastal form has shorter wings and a narrower
bill than the inland form.
Looking in Sibley at the range map - and assuming it is accurate - PSFL
breeds almost to the Yukon, while COFL gets no further north than southern
Montana.  Also, PSFL is mapped as occurring on the east slope of the
Rockies in Alberta - can anyone confirm this?
Howell in his Mexico FG maps the wintering range of PSFL down to southern
Oaxaca - as far south as the southernmost resident (?) COFLs.
The norm for migrant species with a large latitudinal range is Leapfrog
Migration; i.e. the birds at the northern end of the breeding range are
also the ones that winter furthest south, flying over their
shorter-distance  migrant cohorts.  Consequently there is often a cline in
wing length of such species, with the northernmost birds being the
longest-winged.
Considering all of the above, I wonder if the statement mentioned above
from Pyle et al (which is a quote from a Paper by Johnson, 1980) is
misleading?  did the data used to arrive at this conclusion include enough
PSFLs from the northern end of the range?
Can anyone provide information about wing length variability on PSFL,
and/or confirm that the birds at the  northern end of their range are
longer-winged (by how much?) - ?
Obviously, I am considering whether the empid in Texas is a long-winged
male PSFL, based on the structure and call; can anyone offer thoughts on
this notion?  I plan to attempt to get a recording of this bird - but even
if I do, would this be enough to ID it, assuming it confirms the call to be
that associated with male PSFLs?
I know there are some birders who have concerns about the split of Western
Fly; I lack the experience to comment on this, and am merely working with
the Status Quo on this one!
Cheers,
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Tubenose vocalizations (RFI)
From: Phoebetria(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 7 Jan 2005 7:35am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

I am helping out on a field guide that Barnes & Noble is assembling (they're
doing birds, trees, herps, etc. - I'm working on birds), and each species has
a blank for vocalizations. I find, not surprisingly, that I have no sound
recordings here of the following species of Pacific tubenoses:

Wedge-rumped Storm-Petrel
Galapagos Petrel (have Hawaiian Petrel)
Murphy's Petrel
Pink-footed Shearwater
Black-vented Shearwater

If anyone has access to sound recordings, or knows where they might be found,
or has any experience of vocalizations in these species, I'd be keen to hear
about it - best to reply off the listserv, unless the information might be
interesting and relevant for identification, etc.

Best for the new year,
Ned Brinkley
Cape Charles, VA

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 10:39am

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

I have extensive experience with Glaucous Gulls in Oregon and very
southwestern Washington, where the species is a rare late autumn through
winter visitant, and very rare at other seasons.
I have probably averaged seeing about four or five per winter in my forty
years of birding in the mentioned geographic area.

In my experience, there are some birds that are obviously Barrovianus
Glaucous Gulls.  These birds have rather round heads, and comparatively
small, somewhat delicate bills.  They are clearly smaller than the
Glaucous-winged Gulls with which they are typically in direct comparison.  I
would estimate that these birds comprise only about 10% of the Glaucous
Gulls that I have seen  in Oregon and southwestern Washngton.  The remainder
have been very large birds - as large to clearly larger than the
Glaucous-winged Gulls. My assumption based on this is that the Berring Sea
birds - presumably the small birds - are less likely to occur here than are
large birds from presumably further north and more to the east (or even from
Siberia).    It has been interesting to me that the birds have almost always
clearly fallen into one category or the other.

My recollection of Glaucous Gulls near Nome is that they were smaller than
the occasional Glaucous-winged Gulls that I saw there.

In regard to immatures with less than the classic sharp divison between the
bark distal end of the bill and its pale base: these are scarce in regard to
birds that I concluded were pure Glaucous Gulls.  The only ones that I have
concluded were Glaucous Gulls were where the dark area only extended back on
the bill along the sides of the mandibular tomia (or as I would say in the
field - along its lips...).  Even then the division between dark and light
is still rather distinct - just not as perpendicular.  The great majority of
birds with otherwise classic Glaucous Gull field marks have had the sharp
perpendicular demarcation on the bill.    Birds that I have concluded were
hybrids between GLGU and GWGU have often had bills with an indistinct
separation between the dark and light areas on the bills.  Such apparent
hybrids have shown at least some coloration on the wing tips, except from
about mid-March on when wear and fading can leave the primaries very white.

Zivele  (Szhevalay).

Jeff Gilligan.

on 1/6/05 5:29 PM, SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM at SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM wrote:

Greetings

Barrovianus Glaucous Gull is the Glaucous Gull of Beringia, and for the most
part, the west coast of Canada and the US.

Yes, it is smaller than nominate or eastern NA Glaucous Gull (some of the
ones I used to see in Chicago seemed HUGE). However, barrovianus is still a
big bird and a fair ways larger than Iceland, having seen a number in AK and
presumably a few down here in WA.

Given the wide geographical separation, it wouldn't surprise me if juv
barrovianus and nominate GLGUs had different bill colors.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Possible Black-headed X Ring-billed Gull?
From: Kenn Kaufman <kenn.kaufman(AT)WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 12:14pm

In viewing anything that suggests this hybrid combination -- or that
suggests Ring-billed X Franklin's, Ring-billed X Bonaparte's, or any other
combination involving a standard-white-mirror-in-black-primary-tips  X
something-with-more-white-in-the-primaries -- we need to keep in mind the
possibility of Mediterranean Gull (Larus melanocephalus).  Despite the name,
that species has increased in recent decades in northwestern Europe, and it
would be a plausible vagrant in eastern North America.  I don't think the
Pennsylvania bird is that species; the one photo that I viewed had some
resemblance to a second-winter Mediterranean Gull, but I think it showed too
much black in the primaries.  Still, it's a bird that we should all be
keeping in mind.  Not every odd-looking gull is a hybrid!

Kenn Kaufman
Tucson, AZ

>
> Devich Farbotnik asked me to post this information and a link to the photo
> of a gull that he saw recently in Bucks County, eastern Pennsylvania.  He
> would like to know if this bird possibly fits a Black-headed X Ring-billed
> Gull hybrid or a Black-headed X Mew Gull hybrid.  He would appreciate any
> input on what this gull may be.
>
> It can be viewed by clicking on
> http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/index8.html and then clicking on
> "Another
> Bucks County Mystery Gull".
>


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 7 Jan 2005 2:34pm

Greetings All

I've not seen the dichotomy that Jeff has in Pac NW GLGU's, and felt that the
GLGU were similar in size to GWGU in Nome and Gambell (where presumably
barrovianus). I guess I could have missed a 10% decrease in size. In any case,
these birds were still no where in the size range or structural range of ICGU

If I am not mistaken (references not available at my office), the Old Timers
(Jewett, etc) considered all WA GLGU to be barrovianus.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous gulls
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 2:44pm

<Yes, it is smaller than nominate or eastern NA Glaucous Gull (some of
the ones I used to see in Chicago seemed HUGE). However, <barrovianus
is still a big bird and a fair ways larger than Iceland, having seen a
number in AK and presumably a few down here in WA.

<Steven Mlodinow

On a tangent from the bill discussion-

In the western Great Lakes we see mostly the larger  hyperboreus,
being
the 4th most common gull on Lake Michigan in winter. We occasionally
get claims of adult GLGU that are likened to if not called nominate
Icelands,
having no gray in the wingtips. These birds often have darker backs
than our standard adult hyperboreus, rounder heads, shorter primary
extensions
and more delicate bills. This bird was initially considered as an
Iceland by
experienced observers lacking any direct comparisons as it was notably
smaller
and more petite than typically seen Glaucous-

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/1.jpg

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/2.jpg

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/3.jpg

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/4.jpg

This comparison slide shows various known Kumlien's heads-

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/smglaucous.jpg

My understanding is that there is a cline to these birds from east to
west;
with the smaller barrovianus at the end of that cline; is this bird to
be considered
a barrovianus or a small hyperboreus?

Photos by Kanae Hirabayashi
___

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 3:01pm

I'm not sure of the range of barrovianus, but I think many of the W. USA
Glaucous Gulls come from the Mackenzie River delta area. There is a
well-established migration path of Thayer's, Herrings Gulls etc overland
from there via Whitehorse to SE Alaska where the birds head further S.
Given the number of GL x HEGU hybrids I saw in the S. SF Bay area and
the association of GLGU with large HEGU concentrations both here and
places like Sauvie near Portland, I think it's certain a fair proportion
of W. coast Glaucous Gulls come from Arctic Canada. I think these aren't
barrovianus, but I don't know for sure.

There isn't a lot of incentive for many Glaucous Gulls to come a long
way south from the Bering Sea because this sea doesn't freeze all over.
Even in Kodiak, Glaucous Gulls could only be described as uncommon (you
see 10-20 in day of looking at a lot of gulls). Certainly we must get
some of these coming to the W. coast but no reason that all or even most
would come this way.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 1:34 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous Gull

Greetings All

I've not seen the dichotomy that Jeff has in Pac NW GLGU's, and felt
that the GLGU were similar in size to GWGU in Nome and Gambell (where
presumably barrovianus). I guess I could have missed a 10% decrease in
size. In any case, these birds were still no where in the size range or
structural range of ICGU

If I am not mistaken (references not available at my office), the Old
Timers (Jewett, etc) considered all WA GLGU to be barrovianus.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 3:03pm

Birders

  Here in northern California I see few Glaucous Gulls, however they do not
strike me as small. They tend to be the size of Glaucous-wings, or larger!
Something I have mentioned before on this list is that the first cycle
Glaucous Gulls we get here tend to be very pale. None are ever as dark as
some of these photos of European birds I see. When I lived in Ontario I used
to see these well pigmented Glaucous Gulls as well, but not here in
California. A couple of trips to Barrow, Alaska in the breeding season (so
barrovianus by definition) has not left me with the impression that
barrovianus is that small, it may be smaller on average but it is no tiny
gull! I have hypothesized that some of the Glaucous Gulls we get here in
California may be the paler Asian birds (pallidisimus is it?).

Cheers

Al

Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, CA

Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm

> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 1:34 PM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
>
> Greetings All
>
> I've not seen the dichotomy that Jeff has in Pac NW GLGU's, and felt that
> the GLGU were similar in size to GWGU in Nome and Gambell (where
> presumably barrovianus). I guess I could have missed a 10% decrease in
> size. In any case, these birds were still no where in the size range or
> structural range of ICGU
>
> If I am not mistaken (references not available at my office), the Old
> Timers (Jewett, etc) considered all WA GLGU to be barrovianus.
>
> Cheers
> Steven Mlodinow


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Barrovianus Glaucous range
From: Jim Mountjoy <jmountjo(AT)KNOX.EDU>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 3:45pm

There seems to be a bit of uncertainty about the distribution of the
sub-species, so I checked...

Dickinson (2003)  briefly describes the ranges as:
hyperboreus - N Europe and NW Siberia
pallidisimus - Taymyr Pen. to Bering Sea
barrovianus - Alaska to W Canada
leucertes - N Canada, Greenland, Iceland

Godfrey (1986) does not recognise leucertes, stating that hyperboreus
breeds in most of the Canadian range.  He states that birds "breeding in
northern Yukon and western Mackenzie (east to about Harrowby Bay) are
closer to L. h. barrovianus Ridgway, characterized by somewhat smaller
size, particularly of bill, and slightly darker mantle".

Harrowby Bay is on the Cape Bathurst Peninsula, between the Mackenzie
River delta and Banks Island.  So, birds from the Mackenzie delta area
may at least be intergrades with barrovianus.  Not sure what Dickinson's
statement implies about the liklihood of pallidisimus in Alska or the
west coast of North America...

Jim Mountjoy
Galesburg IL

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: more on the unusual Western-type Empid in
         south Texas
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 3:48pm

Dear Phil and Al and all,
Well, you are not confused - it is ME that is whacky...  As I said, I've
precious little experience with Cordilleran, and none with Pac-slope.  I
read the material on Howell's guide and managed to swap them in my addled
brain - sorry about that.
So, that means this bird is likely a long-winged COFL, then; maybe one of
the birds that Barb Beck sees in Alberta....
  I think I'll stick to gulls....
Cheers,
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: more on the unusual Western-type Empid in
         south Texas
From: Jim Pike <jpike44(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 4:10pm

Hi Martin,  Well, I was all set to send this message until I read your
most recent post. As I think most of it (hopefully) remains germane, I'll
post it anyways. In light of your comments, maybe there is a chance of
assigning this bird to species:

  Since I don�t feel like birding in the rain here in Socal today, here
are two or three cents worth of opinion on the latest of the Texas empids.
You mention that the calls sound exactly like that of the Pacific-slope
Flycatcher on the recordings to which you listened. The calls were always
the best evidence that the bird wasn�t a Pine Flycatcher. I have to say
that the bird does look absurdly long-winged in the first couple of Jan 5
photos, but acceptably in the WEFL range in the rest. I�ve never agreed
with the contention that WEFLs have a �short� primary projection. Granted,
this is a matter of differing  perceptions, but I reserve �short� for
Least and Dusky Flycatchers. Your description of the bird having
a �longish Least Fly bill� sounds fine for WEFL. I think that the notched
tail evident in the pics is a function of having tapered, juvenile
rectrices. It stands to reason that an HY would be likelier to show a
notched tail than an adult with truncate outer rectrices.  As for the legs
looking blackish (as noted for Pine Flycatchers and not for WEFL in Howell
and Webb 1995), I could find no consistent pattern of leg color
differences in my mini-gallery of empid photos, whether or not the species
was described in Howell and Webb as having blackish legs (ex: WIFL, DUFL)
or gray legs (WEFL, YBFL). However, I don�t doubt that there may be
discernable in-hand differences.  Lastly, Howell and Webb describe Pine
Flycatchers as having a �bright whitish� eyering. Thus the eyering color
should presumably look at least somewhat like the  bright white spot on
the branch upon which the bird is perched in the first of the Jan 5
photos, rather than dull yellowish (which is consistent with the typical
color of a WEFL).       So, anyways, back to the call. Your initial
written description of  the call being a �distinctly disyllabic two-
note �su-wit!� or �chu-wit!� with the second note much higher than the
first�  is dead-on for Cordilleran.  However, if it sounds like the PSFL
on the recording, so be it. It is my understanding that----based on the
work of Arch McCallum----the male position note of some COFL can be
virtually identical to that of PSFL, but that PSFL supposedly never call
like COFL. Thus it would be much more difficult to confirm a calling PSFL
than it would a COFL.  So while it would be useful to obtain a recording
of the bird�s call, the possibility of then �confirming� it as a PSFL (if
that is what it is) would likely be remote.

Jim Pike
Huntington Beach,CA


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: West Coast Glaucous Gulls
From: MIECHEL TABAK <mtabak(AT)SHAW.CA>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 4:23pm

I've seen about 50 Glaucous Gulls in the Vancouver  B.C. area in the last
ten years. Only one of these birds was noticeable smaller than the average
GWGU. The rest go from GWGU up in size, and most immature birds especially
are really big. Observers familiar with Thayer's Gull proportions  and size
would not confuse these birds with ICGU. I don't know what subspecies these
Glaucous Gulls are, but they don't look that much different to me than the
Great Lake Glaucous Gulls.
Mike Tabak


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls
From: Declan Troy <declan.troy(AT)ACSALASKA.NET>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 5:31pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

FWIW, I've tracked 30-odd Glaucous Gulls using satellite telemetry.
All these birds were trapped during the breeding season on the North
Slope of Alaska. Although most literature mentions the Pacific coast
of North America as  the wintering area for barrovianus, almost all
of these birds have wintered in Asia and none along mainland North
America.

Declan
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: more on the unusual Western-type Empid in
         south Texas
From: Barb Beck <barb(AT)BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 5:34pm

OK I probably should not have sent my reply  to Martin offline  but the
jist of what I had to say was that in Alberta we get COFL and PSFL and
songs and calls which are intermediate in the Western Flycatcher
complex.  Dick Cannings and I think some others (sorry cannot find the
paper(  wrote a paper not long after the split where he analyzed
something like 150 songs and calls of these birds.  Using exactly the
same methods Johnston used to separate the calls of the PSFL and COFL
they cam up with a significant portion  of intermediate birds in the
province as well as some that could be identified as PSFL and COFL..
If  one accepts as fact that the songs and calls of these birds are
hardwired in genetically and that they do not  learn  or partially learn
their vocalizations as do some other birds like the warblers then the
fact that we have intermediate calls does not in my mind bode well for
the split.  In fact if you take the commercial recordings available and
look at sonograms of the calls and the songs you see a cline all across
the range of the birds from California to the south eastern part of
their range.  Alberta just happens to sit in the middle of the mixing
bowl as it does with many other species.    The paper did not appear
because the reviewer (there was only one)  shot it down with what to me
looks like a perfectly circular argument.  He claimed that Cannings
could NOT use the same method that was used in the original work because
he was in a different area???????   I thought these vocalizations were
genetic and if that is the case the genetics are intermediate.  But I am
no biologist - just a poor old physical organic chemist who turned into
a computing nerd for a while and maybe my poor little female brain
cannot understant this..

Too bad the paper was not published.  Last I heard Dick was not about to
resubmit it to AUK or submit it elsewhere.  .  If Dick's paper is
significant it would  not be the first time in any field that a legit
paper was not accepted because the idea is unpopular and the author does
not have the reputation of the person who originally did the work.

I suggest that any of you who want to experience marvelous cranial
cramps come to the east slops of Alberta early next summer and try to
find these little critters in the steep canyons over rushing rivers
where they like to nest.  Bring recording gear but beware that if the
roar of the water is not really bad the wind whistling down those
canyons will make any recording less than pure.  Basically the bird here
nests in places where it ia almost impossible to get a reasonable
recording.    And if your brain does not hurt enough after that  get a
butterfly net and start swinging it.  The flutterbys we have here make
Gulls look very easy and anyway we have a pretty simple set of  Gulls
most of the time.

Barb Beck
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 5:43pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

This is great information, but I don't think it proves barrovianus
doesn't occur in W. N. America. It's important to remember that Glaucous
is essentially a vagrant (admittedly a common one) to the USA and NW
Europe. For example you can't go anywhere in Britain or the US (outside
Alaska) and see more than 20-30 Glaucous at once, and the number of
places you can do that is only a handful. For example there are more
Yellow-browed Warblers in the UK or Blackpoll Warblers in California
each year than Glaucous Gulls. Therefore we're getting such a tiny % of
the population that I suspect you would need a few hundred recoveries to
get one in the W. US (assuming some are going here).

=20

Glaucous Gulls are common in Hokkaido, Japan in winter, which backs your
evidence that a lot are going there.=20

=20

  _____ =20

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Declan Troy
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 4:22 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls

=20

FWIW, I've tracked 30-odd Glaucous Gulls using satellite telemetry. All
these birds were trapped during the breeding season on the North Slope
of Alaska. Although most literature mentions the Pacific coast of North
America as  the wintering area for barrovianus, almost all of these
birds have wintered in Asia and none along mainland North America.

=20

Declan

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 6:08pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_BkdBhdSlQVHBhSvcl6FPPA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Re: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls

  Declan Troy wrote:>FWIW, I've tracked 30-odd Glaucous Gulls using satellite
telemetry. All these birds were trapped during the breeding season on the North
Slope of Alaska. Although most literature mentions the Pacific coast of North
America as  the wintering area for barrovianus, almost all of these birds have
wintered in Asia and none along mainland North America.<

  Very interesting indeed Declan. Have you published the results? Did these
birds show an Iceland Gull profile such as the ones on the Japanese website?
Tell us more please.
  Norman

--Boundary_(ID_BkdBhdSlQVHBhSvcl6FPPA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

----DELETED HTML-ENCODED SECTION----

--Boundary_(ID_BkdBhdSlQVHBhSvcl6FPPA)--


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls
From: Jeff Davis <jndavis(AT)NETPTC.NET>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 6:13pm

----DELETED multipart/alternative MIME SECTION----

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Re: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous GullsAccording to a paper by Dick =
Banks (1986) on the "Subspecies of the Glaucous Gull," published in the =
Proceeding of the Biological Society of Washington 99:149-159, which =
I've only read summaries of, barrovianus is the ONLY subspecies that had =
ever been collected or reported from the West Coast.=20

I checked the databases of the Museum of Vertebrate Zoology and the =
California Academy of Sciences, but neither gives subspecies for their =
Glaucous Gull specimens.

The 2001 BNA account by Gilchrist says that barrovianus "winters from =
the Aleutian Is. south along the Pacific coast to n. California =
(uncommon to s. California)." But it also says that it intergrades with =
leucertes from the Mackenzie River Delta and Franklin Bay, and that =
introgressants may winter from the Great Plains west to the Pacific =
coast.

Jeff Davis
Prather, CA
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Lethaby, Nick=20
  To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
  Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 4:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls

  This is great information, but I don't think it proves barrovianus =
doesn't occur in W. N. America. It's important to remember that Glaucous =
is essentially a vagrant (admittedly a common one) to the USA and NW =
Europe. For example you can't go anywhere in Britain or the US (outside =
Alaska) and see more than 20-30 Glaucous at once, and the number of =
places you can do that is only a handful. For example there are more =
Yellow-browed Warblers in the UK or Blackpoll Warblers in California =
each year than Glaucous Gulls. Therefore we're getting such a tiny % of =
the population that I suspect you would need a few hundred recoveries to =
get one in the W. US (assuming some are going here).

  Glaucous Gulls are common in Hokkaido, Japan in winter, which backs =
your evidence that a lot are going there.=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

  From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification =
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Declan Troy
  Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 4:22 PM
  To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls

  FWIW, I've tracked 30-odd Glaucous Gulls using satellite telemetry. =
All these birds were trapped during the breeding season on the North =
Slope of Alaska. Although most literature mentions the Pacific coast of =
North America as  the wintering area for barrovianus, almost all of =
these birds have wintered in Asia and none along mainland North America.

  Declan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
  Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 1/6/2005

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 1/6/2005


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gulls - Banks abstract
From: Jeff Davis <jndavis(AT)NETPTC.NET>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 6:54pm

----DELETED multipart/alternative MIME SECTION----

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Re: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous GullsBanks, Richard C.  1986.  =
Subspecies of the Glaucous Gull, Larus
hyperboreus (Aves: Charadriiformes).  Proceedings of the Biological
Society of Washington 99(1): 1491-59.

Abstract:
Current writings treat the Holarctic Glaucous Gull, Larus hyperboreus,
either as a monotypic species or as having two or three subspecies; if
divided, birds of Canada, Greenland, and Europe are considered to be of
the nominate subspecies.  This study shows that there are four
subspecies, the birds of Canada and Greenland being separable from
those of Europe; the name L. h. leuceretes Schleep, 1819, based on a
Greenland bird, is available for the former.  Alaskan birds (L. h.
barrovianus) are relatively dark on the mantle, those of Canada and
Greenland are pale, those of Europe and western Asia are dark, and
those of Siberia (pallidissimus) are very pale.  From the small Alaskan
birds there is an increase in size to the east around the Holarctic to =
very
large birds in Siberia.  The Alaskan and Canadian populations intergrade
in extreme northwestern Canada.  Nonbreeding Glaucous Gulls along the
Pacific coast of North America are of the Alaskan form, barrovianus;
those east of the Rockies, previously referred to as barrovianus or
hyperboreus, are all leuceretes or, in the western plains states, from =
the
intergrade area.

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 1/6/2005


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: RFI: Larus hyperboreus barrovianus VS. L. h.
         leucertes
From: Bryan Guarente <dafekt1ve(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 8:49pm

Gull IDers,
I frist wanted to start by asking what is the correct spelling of
_Larus hyperboreus leucertes_?  (Leucertes?, Leuceretes?, Leucerectes?
{Olsen and Larsson 2004}).  Henceforth, I will go by _leucertes_.

Since the discussion is out there of where these birds may be occuring,
I was wondering how we may go about identifying these two subspecies.
First, do we need the bird in hand to tell the difference?  If not,
could someone list the differences that may be separable in the field
(the more ideas the better).  I do know that the jury is still out on
this topic, but thought someone might throw out their two cents.  I
have quite a few questions about the differences between these two
subspecies.  For instance, does _L. h. leucertes_ show a "dark" orbital
ring (Olsen and Larsson 2004) like the occasional _L. h. barrovianus_,
or is this just limited to one or the other?

Olsen and Larsson (2004) do not mention much of the defining
characteristics of the _L. h. leucertes_ in their recently revised
book.  It does seem like a formidable challenge since a lot of
references neglect this subspecies completely.  However, I am hoping
someone out there could help to at least point in the right direction.

The reason I ask is because I lived in the area that doesn't seem to
get much thought since there isn't a large area of water, the Great
Plains/High Plains.  I have a few pictures of both 1CY and Adult _L.
hyperboreus_ from Colorado (eastern) that I have been trying to figure
out to subspecies.

Thanks for any help you can provide.  Feel free to respond off list if
prefered.

Bryan Guarente
Atmospheric Sciences Graduate Student
University of Illinois
Champaign, IL

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Larus hyperboreus barrovianus in Texas?
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 9:10pm

The Bird Life of Texas (Oberholser 1974) lists two specimens of barrovianus
Glaucous Gull from Texas. See volume 1, page 379. I wonder if the Texas
Bird Records Committee has reviewed these records.

Oberholser, Harry C. 1974. The Bird Life of Texas. Volumes 1 and 2.
University of Texas Press, Austin and London.

Ron Pittaway
Minden/Toronto ON
jeaniron(AT)sympatico.ca


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 10:44pm

on 1/7/05 1:34 PM, SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM at SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM wrote:

> Greetings All
>
> I've not seen the dichotomy that Jeff has in Pac NW GLGU's, and felt that the
> GLGU were similar in size to GWGU in Nome and Gambell (where presumably
> barrovianus). I guess I could have missed a 10% decrease in size. In any
case,
> these birds were still no where in the size range or structural range of ICGU
>
> If I am not mistaken (references not available at my office), the Old Timers
> (Jewett, etc) considered all WA GLGU to be barrovianus.
>
> Cheers
> Steven Mlodinow

What I referring to in regard to 10% was the ratio of the obviously smaller
Glauscous Gulls to the ones that are as large or larger than the
Glaucous-winged Gulls.  It is interesting that Miechel Tabak has only seen
one in about fifty that were obviously smaller than the rest.  I may have
exaggerated the percentage a bit - perhaps I should have said that I have
seen 5% to 10% of the obvioulsy smaller birds.  I should also note that the
small birds have only been seen in a few years during the forty year time
period that I mentioned.  Several times experienced and competent birders in
Oregon have reported Iceland Gulls or possible Iceland Gulls that have
turned out to be these small birds. Their smaller size is really evident.

Gabrielson and Jewett in Birds of Oregon (1940) only reported three
specimens of the species.  They metioned having seen a few other birds.  (I
don't have a copy of Lincoln and Gabrielson's Washington book from a few
years later.)  No mention was made regarding what they determined the
subspecies to be.  Interestingly, they referred to them as the largest gull
that visits Oregon, and remarked that the Glaucous-winged Gull is smaller.
Based on this, I suspect that they were seeing a larger form of Glaucous
Gull - which is consistent with the great majority of my sightings.

Zivele -  Jeff Gilligan.


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 7 Jan 2005 10:50pm

Hello All:

I second Al Jaramillo's comments.  When Grant's photo guide to gulls first
came out I was shocked by how dark the immature Glaucous Gulls were.  The
great majority of birds in Oregon are very pale.   Jeff Gilligan.

on 1/7/05 2:03 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo at chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET wrote:

> Birders
>
> Here in northern California I see few Glaucous Gulls, however they do not
> strike me as small. They tend to be the size of Glaucous-wings, or larger!
> Something I have mentioned before on this list is that the first cycle
> Glaucous Gulls we get here tend to be very pale. None are ever as dark as
> some of these photos of European birds I see. When I lived in Ontario I used
> to see these well pigmented Glaucous Gulls as well, but not here in
> California. A couple of trips to Barrow, Alaska in the breeding season (so
> barrovianus by definition) has not left me with the impression that
> barrovianus is that small, it may be smaller on average but it is no tiny
> gull! I have hypothesized that some of the Glaucous Gulls we get here in
> California may be the paler Asian birds (pallidisimus is it?).
>
> Cheers
>
> Al
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> chucao(AT)coastside.net
> Half Moon Bay, CA
>
> Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
> http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
>> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 1:34 PM
>> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
>>
>> Greetings All
>>
>> I've not seen the dichotomy that Jeff has in Pac NW GLGU's, and felt that
>> the GLGU were similar in size to GWGU in Nome and Gambell (where
>> presumably barrovianus). I guess I could have missed a 10% decrease in
>> size. In any case, these birds were still no where in the size range or
>> structural range of ICGU
>>
>> If I am not mistaken (references not available at my office), the Old
>> Timers (Jewett, etc) considered all WA GLGU to be barrovianus.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Steven Mlodinow


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 1:47am

I spent the entire month of May 2003 and May 2004 at Barrow, Alaska and
the summers of 2000-2003 in the Mackenzie Delta, Northwest Territories.

Glaucous Gull was an abundant migrant at Barrow with 1000's per day. It
was a common breeder on the NWT coast and common visitor to the Inuvik
dump where it met with Herring Gulls within the treeline.  I think both
Inuivk (Mackenzie Delta) and Barrow Glaucous Gulls are the same
subspecies.  I compare NWT and Alaska GLGUs with wintering Glaucous
Gulls that I am most familiar with in Newfoundland, where I live.

In a nut shell, comparing adult wintering Newfoundland to adult
Alaska/NWT Glaucous Gulls goes like this.

Orbital Ring: AK/NWT orange to orange-red. NF pale yellow to warm
marigold-yellow.

Iris: AK/NWT olive-yellow frequently with dark speckling, sometimes
enough speckling to make the eye look very dark. NF pale yellow, paler
than Newfoundland smithsonianus.

Bill: AK/NWT stouter, brighter orange. NF longer paler yellow, in winter
at least, basal half of bill often with pinkish undertone.

Upperpart Colour: AK/NWT No other gull to compare with in AK but there
were HEGUs in NWT. Upper parts similar to HEGU. Somewhat paler but not
as obvious at comparing NF GLGUs with HEGUs. NF GLGUs noticeably paler
than Kumlien's Gull.  When looking at flock of 100s of adults in AK
there was always variation in upperpart colour among individuals. In NF
birds there is little variation, all are pale.

Size. Again, like upperpart colour plenty of variation in size among a
large flock of AK/NWT GLGUs. More than just male vs female. Some
particularly small and chunky birds.  NF GLGUs more uniform in size with
typical male vs female size difference. Some NF GLGUs seemingly larger
than any Great Black-backed Gulls.

About 5% of the gulls at the Inuvik, NWT dump are hybrid Glaucous x
Herring Gull hybrids. When fresh juveniles appeared in August and
September it was a nightmare identifying Glaucous and Herrings. Some
dark billed pale birds superficially resembling Kumlien's or even
glaucoides Iceland Gulls in plumage but stouter birds with short primary
projection.

In a nut shell.

Bruce

Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeff Gilligan
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 1:18 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous Gull

on 1/7/05 1:34 PM, SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM at SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM wrote:

> Greetings All
>
> I've not seen the dichotomy that Jeff has in Pac NW GLGU's, and felt
that the
> GLGU were similar in size to GWGU in Nome and Gambell (where
presumably
> barrovianus). I guess I could have missed a 10% decrease in size. In
any case,
> these birds were still no where in the size range or structural range
of ICGU
>
> If I am not mistaken (references not available at my office), the Old
Timers
> (Jewett, etc) considered all WA GLGU to be barrovianus.
>
> Cheers
> Steven Mlodinow

What I referring to in regard to 10% was the ratio of the obviously
smaller
Glauscous Gulls to the ones that are as large or larger than the
Glaucous-winged Gulls.  It is interesting that Miechel Tabak has only
seen
one in about fifty that were obviously smaller than the rest.  I may
have
exaggerated the percentage a bit - perhaps I should have said that I
have
seen 5% to 10% of the obvioulsy smaller birds.  I should also note that
the
small birds have only been seen in a few years during the forty year
time
period that I mentioned.  Several times experienced and competent
birders in
Oregon have reported Iceland Gulls or possible Iceland Gulls that have
turned out to be these small birds. Their smaller size is really
evident.

Gabrielson and Jewett in Birds of Oregon (1940) only reported three
specimens of the species.  They metioned having seen a few other birds.
(I
don't have a copy of Lincoln and Gabrielson's Washington book from a few
years later.)  No mention was made regarding what they determined the
subspecies to be.  Interestingly, they referred to them as the largest
gull
that visits Oregon, and remarked that the Glaucous-winged Gull is
smaller.
Based on this, I suspect that they were seeing a larger form of Glaucous
Gull - which is consistent with the great majority of my sightings.

Zivele -  Jeff Gilligan.


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Italy: a mystery with cachinnans ancestors
From: Menotti Passarella <menotti.passarella(AT)LIBERO.IT>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 3:01am

Hi all.
Angelo Nitti from Molfetta, S Italy, was able to take a picture of a mystery
gull yesterday.
The photo of this bird was uploaded to this album:
http://www.extracon.org/Gabbiani?page=5
It appears as a Caspian Gull 2cy with a large, dark head.
In the same album you will find some photos of Caspian Gulls ringed in
Poland and found in Italy, comprised a sure hybrid having father
Yellow-legged (michahellis) and mother Caspian (cachinnans). The Caspian
Gull is regular at Molfetta, and
a putative Caspian 2cy with a German GREEN ring was photographed there last
April; see the last picture in this gallery:
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/giuseppenuovo/speciebirds/gabbcaspio.html
The ringing data stated that this bird was ringed as Herring Gull (Larus
argentatus) chick in a colony of Herring Gulls in S Germany.
Finally, let me show some putative hybrids: Caspian x Herring Gulls
http://www.illustrated-db-discography.nl/vogels/cachinnans1c.html
and Herring x Yellow-legged Gull (my statement; the mother was surely a
Larus argentatus according the website)
http://www.illustrated-db-discography.nl/vogels/polen2/mystery.html
Central Europe is the source of this complicated birds, and Adriatic is in
the Mediterranean among the best locations to find them, with the incredible
Zadina pier at Cesenatico, where Yellow-legged Gull is the less common
species of large white-headed gull in winter; see a picture here:
http://www.extracon.org/Gabbiani/argentatus043
Cheers
Menotti Passarella
info(AT)birdingitaly.com
www.birdingitaly.net


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 12:53pm

I haven't noticed the dichotomy Jeff mentioned for size of Oregon
Glaucous either, although I can't say I've ever specifically
looked for it. In terms of number of Glaucous seen that are
somewhere around average Glaucous-winged-bulk, maybe
slightly smaller but not obviously larger, and that also have distinctly
rounded non-classical head shapes and smallish bills it would
be a lot higher than 10% - maybe avg 2-3 per year out of
the 5-12 Glaucous I typically see (while paying attention over
the last 6 years at least). It could be that these 'cute' Glaucous
are from a population with more pelagic tendencies than others,
and would more likely be encountered on the immediate coast
where I live.

Wasn't sure if I still had any photos of birds like that lying
around but dug out a few this morning. Note the remarkably
gentle demeanor these birds have for Glaucous (also note bill
size comparison with Western in first photo) -

http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/glgu01.jpg
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/glgu02.jpg
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/glgu03.jpg
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/glgu04.jpg

Cheers,

Phil


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 1:15pm

Phil

  Thanks for the photos. However, I wonder if the second bird is not a
leucistic (partial albino) of something else, perhaps a California Gull? It
does not strike me as a Glaucous Gull, but a single photo can be deceptive.
Do you have a date for that shot?

Regards

Al

Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, CA

Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm

> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Phillip Pickering
> Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 11:54 AM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
>
> I haven't noticed the dichotomy Jeff mentioned for size of Oregon
> Glaucous either, although I can't say I've ever specifically
> looked for it. In terms of number of Glaucous seen that are
> somewhere around average Glaucous-winged-bulk, maybe
> slightly smaller but not obviously larger, and that also have distinctly
> rounded non-classical head shapes and smallish bills it would
> be a lot higher than 10% - maybe avg 2-3 per year out of
> the 5-12 Glaucous I typically see (while paying attention over
> the last 6 years at least). It could be that these 'cute' Glaucous
> are from a population with more pelagic tendencies than others,
> and would more likely be encountered on the immediate coast
> where I live.
>
> Wasn't sure if I still had any photos of birds like that lying
> around but dug out a few this morning. Note the remarkably
> gentle demeanor these birds have for Glaucous (also note bill
> size comparison with Western in first photo) -
>
> http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/glgu01.jpg
> http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/glgu02.jpg
> http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/glgu03.jpg
> http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/glgu04.jpg
>
> Cheers,
>
> Phil


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Phil Pickering's photos of small Glaucous Gulls.
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 1:23pm

Thanks Phil for this series of photos that you just posted from the Oregon
coast.  These are good representatives of the small Glaucous Gulls to which
I have been referring.  In the Olsen and Larsson book, photo number 220 on
page 199 also appears to be an example.  They refer to that "individual" as
bring "particularly small", and identify it as a barrovianus bird.

In my expereince, and apparently in Phil's, these small biirds are normal in
size and shape for a significant percentage of the Glaucous Gulls we see.
Perhaps as Phil has speculated, they have a more pelagic tendancy than the
larger form that we see in Oregon.

Are these small birds typical for barrovianus?  Might they be from an
island, a group of islands, or an isolated area where birds are smaller than
those typical of the barovianus form?


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Barrovianus Glaucous Gull
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 2:36pm

> Do you have a date for that shot?

Hi Al,

Yes, June 3 :)

The bird was exceptionally worn/bleached and the photo is also
a bit overexposed so it does look strange, but the bird did have
some remaining grayish tones on the belly and sides of the breast,
and underwing coverts where you would expect them to linger
longest on a fading Glaucous. It was also close to the bulk of
an average Glaucous-winged, although smaller-billed.

Same individual in flight -
http://www.harborside.com/~philliplc/glgu05.jpg

Which leads to an interesting story - this bird, the near mature
bird I just posted (glgu03), and yet another 1st-cycle small-billed
Glaucous not quite as bleached as the above individual were all
encountered together May29-June3 1999 central coast with a
small flock of other gulls on the beach (record published in Oregon
Birds). At the time I specifically recall that Jeff speculated that the
record fit into a pattern of other strange occurances that spring -
weather was exceptionally cold, mountain passerine migration was
very late and shifted to the lowlands, huge near-shore and estuarine
invasion of Fork-tailed Storm-Petrels, and roughly coinciding
records of Red-faced Cormorant, Red-legged Kittiwake, and
Whiskered Auklet in Washington state - suggesting that a number
of (Island nesting?) Alaskan birds may have shifted drastically south
due to the abnormal weather and/or resulting food conditions that
spring.

Cheers,

Phil


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Phil Pickering's photos of small Glaucous
         Gulls.
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 3:08pm

> Are these small birds typical for barrovianus?  Might they be from an
> island, a group of islands, or an isolated area where birds are smaller
than
> those typical of the barovianus form?

yes, the island of misfit toy glaucous :)


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Glaucous-winged Gull in northern Illinois
From: Robert Hughes <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 5:13pm

Today I had what I'm fairly sure was an adult Glaucous-winged at North
Point Marina in Lake County Illinois. I posted some pics of this bird
on my Web site. I'd appreciate any feedback on this bird.

http://theorniphile.info/glaucescens.html

Robert Hughes
Chicago
My birding Web site: http://theorniphile.info/
Webmaster: http://illinoisbirds.org/


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in northern Illinois
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 6:11pm

It looks like a good Glaucous-winged Gull to me.  Some may comment about the
first of the photos showing the potential for it being a hybrid.  While that
possibility may be impossible to refute, the other three photos look like
perfect Glaucous-winged Gulls.

I just returned from a dog walk at my neighborhood park pond where there
were pure Glaucous-winged Gulls and two adults that were obviously hybrids
with Western Gulls.  If the Illinois bird is other than pure, it does not
look like a first generation hybrid - so my presumption is that it is a good
Glaucous-winged Gull.  That is what I would call it here where the species
is very common.

Jeff Gilligan

on 1/8/05 4:13 PM, Robert Hughes at rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM wrote:

> Today I had what I'm fairly sure was an adult Glaucous-winged at North
> Point Marina in Lake County Illinois. I posted some pics of this bird
> on my Web site. I'd appreciate any feedback on this bird.
>
> http://theorniphile.info/glaucescens.html
>
> Robert Hughes
> Chicago
> My birding Web site: http://theorniphile.info/
> Webmaster: http://illinoisbirds.org/


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Acceptable variation in Plegadis
From: Miliff(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 8 Jan 2005 6:16pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

ID-Frontiers,
=20
         I have a couple questions about _Plegadis_ ibis that have recently=20
come up and was hoping people from this list could help. They are broken dow=
n=20
into two questions below: Glossy Ibis and White-faced Ibis. In both, I am=20
curious as to what are the acceptable ranges of variation in Pleagis, and at=
 what=20
point we start crying "HYBRID".
=20
GLOSSY IBIS
=20
                The California Bird Records Committee (CBRC), of which I am=20=
a=20
current member, has been grappling with some _Plegadis_ ibis records=20
recently. In particular, two recent records describe birds with a narrow rim=
 of pale=20
coloration extending behind the eye. On both birds this is clearly pale skin=
=20
(not feathers), and on the Lancaster bird it extends around the entire eye t=
o=20
form a complete pale orbital ring. Some members have expressed the opinion t=
hat=20
they believe that this is the =E2=80=9Cpale=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cpinkish eye=
lid=E2=80=9D that is described=20
by Arterburn and Gryzbowski in their 2003 article (NAB 57:136-139) on hybrid=
=20
ibis. They seem to suggest that the eyelids of Glossy Ibis are dark and thus=
=20
would never appear to have white or pale skin behind the eye.
                In one bird, several members commented that this described=20
character was the basis for their =E2=80=9Creject=E2=80=9D vote; in another,=
 it caused the=20
observers to submit the record as a possible hybrid. I think this character=20=
needs=20
to be assessed in some large groups of Glossy Ibis; I am unconvinced that it=
=20
is not within the acceptable range of variation in the species. Unfortunatel=
y,=20
it has never been relevant for me to look at this detail when looking for=20
White-faced in the East, so I am not sure if it is a regular feature of some=
=20
Glossies or not. Photo #3 in the below list is a good example of this featur=
e.=20
                I find it difficult to believe that all these birds (which=20
were consistent with Glossy in all other respects), represent hybrids. I am=20=
not=20
certain that in all cases this white behind the eye represents the eyelid, b=
ut=20
rather think that in some (not all) Glossy Ibis there is a small amount of=20
facial skin behind the eye and that in many birds this is pale like the faci=
al=20
skin stripes. I would very much like to hear the opinions of others on this=20
matter, and especially would like to be directed to more photos that illustr=
ate=20
this feature.
                If anyone has good digital images of Glossy Ibis (especially=
=20
any showing pale skin behind the eye), I would be very grateful if you could=
=20
share them. I do not have extensive photographic resources available to chec=
k=20
whether some Glossy Ibis have this feature. However, I checked the following=
=20
photographs of adult Glossy Ibis in breeding condition. My results are=20
summarized below:
=20
1) CBRC record 2004-093, one photo of an adult at Sutter N.W.R. =E2=80=93 cl=
early no=20
pale color behind eye
2) North American Birds (NAB) 57:137, one photo of adult in Oklahoma --=20
clearly no pale color behind eye
3) NAB 54:242, one photo of adult at Anahuac NWR, TX =E2=80=93 This bird CLE=
ARLY has=20
a very thin strip of pale skin encircling the rear of the eye; I do not see=20
any hint of it in front of the eye
4) NAB 54:242, one photo of adult at Bosque del Apache NWR, NM =E2=80=93 dif=
ficult to=20
be sure, but I think a narrow strip of white does extend behind the eye in=20
this individual as well
5) NAB 54:243, adult at Calipatria, CA =E2=80=93 probably does not have any=20=
white=20
behind eye, but I cannot be sure in the reproduced photo, given how narrow i=
t is=20
on the Anahuac bird on the facing page.
6) NAB 54:246, two basic-plumaged birds in Florida =E2=80=93 On the left-han=
d bird,=20
there is clearly no white behind the eye, but on the right-hand bird there=20
seems to be a narrow strip behind the eye.
7) NAB 54:246, basic-plumaged bird in San Antonio, TX =E2=80=93 clearly no p=
ale color=20
behind eye
=20
I also used google to check Internet photos. In a short search I found 15=20
photos that could be assessed. Of those, all 6 from the Old World showed no=20=
white=20
behind the eye (interesting...). Of the New World photos, five showed some=20
hint of white encircling the eye.
=20
1) http://www.oceanwanderers.com/GlossyIbis1590.JPG, top photo, adult at=20
Jamaica Bay NWR, NY =E2=80=93 this bird has been foraging in the mud, but se=
ems to show a=20
pale area encircling the rear of the eye
2) http://http://www.oceanwanderers.com/GlossyIbis2.html, juveniles at=20
Jamaica Bay NWR, NY =E2=80=93 Interestingly both figures on this webpage, bo=
th of which show=20
juveniles, show birds with a narrow white orbital ring that encircles the=20
entire eye.
3)=20
http://www.liglobal.com/t_i/attractions/liscrapbook/goldberger/images/glossy=
_ibis.jpg -- adult on Long Island, NY =E2=80=93 seems to show pale extending=
 behind=20
eye.
4) http://www.folsp.org/glossy_ibis.jpg, adult from Liberty SP, NJ =E2=80=
=93 Again,=20
seems to show some white behind eye.
=20
WHITE-FACED IBIS
=20
           Last year, on 1 May 2004, Peter Gaede, Wes Fritz, Jeff Davis, and=
=20
I observed and photographed an odd  White-faced Ibis in Santa Barbara County=
,=20
CA. (I can share the photos with anyone interested.) Essentially it looks li=
ke=20
a normal second-year White-faced Ibis but has fairly well defined stripes of=
=20
pale skin (tinged pinkish) above and below the bare facial skin in the exact=
=20
pattern of Glossy Ibis. Within a couple weeks of reporting this bird, Jim Pi=
ke=20
(of Orange County) photographed a similar bird at Prado Basin. I have seen=20
hatch-years with a similar pattern. Is this a feature of a small percentage=20=
of=20
immature White-faced Ibis? Or is it an indicator of hybrid ancestry? Any=20
comments or supportive photos would be welcomed.
=20
Best,
=20
Marshall Iliff=20

**************************
Marshall J. Iliff
Costa Mesa, CA=20
miliff AT aol.com
***************************

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Barrovianus measurements
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 8 Jan 2005 7:09pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Greetings All

Well, I think we've about hacked this to death, but I do think actually
quoting the measurements would be useful. I'm going to quote the ranges for
first
years, as almost all birds in WA-CA are first years. For interest, I'll add in
measurements for Kumlein's

Bill
Bar: 46.2-64.3
Hyp: 48.9-65.2
Kum: 39.0-50.0

Wing
Bar: 427-480
Hyp: 422-493
Kum: 375-441

Bill depth at base
Bar: 17.0-21.9
Hyp: 16.6-24.7
Kum: 14.2-17.0

Bill depth at gonys
Bar: 16.4-20.7
Hyp: 15.2-23.0
Kum: 12.5-16.0

Gonys length
Bar: 12.6-17.5
Hyp: 12.3-19.4
Kum: 12.2-15/3

Tarsus:
Bar: 61.2-72.6
Hyp: 59.9-77.0
Kum: 52.9-64.7

Two things leap out at me:
one: barrovianus and hyperboreus are more similar in size than different;
distinguishing the two by size seems possible only in extreme individuals.

two: I'm shocked that there is overlap with Kumlein's; given the overall
small sample size, the true size ranges likely overlap far more than indicated
above

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in northern Illinois
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 7:41pm

> Today I had what I'm fairly sure was an adult Glaucous-winged at North
> Point Marina in Lake County Illinois. I posted some pics of this bird
> on my Web site. I'd appreciate any feedback on this bird.
>
> http://theorniphile.info/glaucescens.html

It's close, but there are still some subtle things that seem off to me.
The bill seems very Herring-like - on the thin end proportionately,
and apparently very straight, with a moderately steep culmen downcurve.
Also the contrastingly paler bill base with a delineated more saturated
area of color on the tip seems very strange for G-w, and I think is more
typical of Herring (and Thayer's) in winter. Also the mantle shade/color
appears to be identical to the Herrings in direct comparison. Not
sure if the head shape can be accurately judged in these photos,
but it too seems a little off - somewhat Herring-like but not really
fitting anything, which is typical of hybrids. Can't judge breast
streaking at the resolution of these photos, but at a coarse level
it looks fine for Herring, just a little filled in. What did the head/
breast streaking look like in the field? Also was the iris clearly dark?
In the top photo it looks like there might be quite a bit of iris/pupil
contrast, although that could easily be illusional.

Primary stack could be ok, but I wonder about the large size of the
white tongue apparent on P8 in the second photo down. I'm used to
seeing G-w with much less white there, if they have any at all. Also I
would like to see how far the darker coloration extends onto the inner
webs of the outer primaries.

So (pending more detailed photos) I'd have to vote no confidence
in this being even mostly G-w (if any). It really looks like it's at least
part Herring to me, if not largest part.

Cheers,

Phil


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in northern Illinois
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 8:30pm

on 1/8/05 6:41 PM, Phillip Pickering at philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM wrote:

>> Today I had what I'm fairly sure was an adult Glaucous-winged at North
>> Point Marina in Lake County Illinois. I posted some pics of this bird
>> on my Web site. I'd appreciate any feedback on this bird.
>>
>> http://theorniphile.info/glaucescens.html

I can understand Phil's comments regarding how thin the bill appears.  The
gonydeal angle seems a bit shallow as well, but the photos are a bit
difficult to discern in that regard. Having said that, I am not sure that
either of these aspects are outside the range for a pure Glaucous-winged
Gull.  Certainly the wing colors are much more like those of a
Glaucous-winged than they are of any possible species that might be a
factor.

>
> It's close, but there are still some subtle things that seem off to me.
> The bill seems very Herring-like - on the thin end proportionately,
> and apparently very straight, with a moderately steep culmen downcurve.
> Also the contrastingly paler bill base with a delineated more saturated
> area of color on the tip seems very strange for G-w, and I think is more
> typical of Herring (and Thayer's) in winter. Also the mantle shade/color
> appears to be identical to the Herrings in direct comparison. Not
> sure if the head shape can be accurately judged in these photos,
> but it too seems a little off - somewhat Herring-like but not really
> fitting anything, which is typical of hybrids. Can't judge breast
> streaking at the resolution of these photos, but at a coarse level
> it looks fine for Herring, just a little filled in. What did the head/
> breast streaking look like in the field? Also was the iris clearly dark?
> In the top photo it looks like there might be quite a bit of iris/pupil
> contrast, although that could easily be illusional.
>
> Primary stack could be ok, but I wonder about the large size of the
> white tongue apparent on P8 in the second photo down. I'm used to
> seeing G-w with much less white there, if they have any at all. Also I
> would like to see how far the darker coloration extends onto the inner
> webs of the outer primaries.
>
> So (pending more detailed photos) I'd have to vote no confidence
> in this being even mostly G-w (if any). It really looks like it's at least
> part Herring to me, if not largest part.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Phil


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Illinois gull
From: DAVID IRONS <llsdirons(AT)MSN.COM>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 8:54pm

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

I am inclined to agree with much of what Phil Pickering has to say about
this gull.  Superficially the gray dark areas of the primary tips and the
mantle color suggest GWGU.  However,  I agree with Phil the bill looks like
that of a Herring, as does the head which to me seems a little small and to=
o
flat on the crown.  The bill seems too thin, with little perceptible
gonydeal angle and a fairly pointed tip providing the =B3rakish=B2 look I
expec=
t
on a HEGU.  The head streaking (if you can call it that) lacks the diffuse
muddy quality of a GWGU and yet it lacks the crispness and more patterned
look of a HEGU. =20

Though it is always tough to tell on a computer monitor, the dark gray area
of the primary tips is obviously not black as would be expected for any
morph of HEGU. Yet, it seems a shade or two too dark for a =B3pure=B2 GWGU
(gotta wonder if such a creature still exists).  If forced to assign a
genetic background to this bird, I would opt for some cross/backcross
between GWGU and HEGU.

Dave Irons
Eugene, OR

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Possible Black-headed X Ring-billed Gull?
From: Dave DeReamus <becard(AT)FAST.NET>
Date: 8 Jan 2005 11:56pm

Hi all,

Devich Farbotnik sent me a very poor (due to complications) flight shot of
his gull, which I've added below the original photo.  As mentioned before,
it can be viewed by clicking on
http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/index8.html and then clicking on "Another
Bucks County Mystery Gull".

Please respond directly to him with your questions or comments at
birdwatcher24_7(AT)yahoo.com.

Thanks and Good Birding,

Dave DeReamus
Compiler of the 'Eastern PA Birdline'
Easton, PA
becard(AT)fast.net
Eastern PA Birding Website:  http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/index.html
[ Prev Week | Next Week | Calendar Month | ID-FRONTIERS Info ]
The Virtual Birder

ID-FRONTIERS for January 1-8, 2005

Send feedback on these pages to: BMail@greatblue.com B-Mail Message Content Disclaimer Layout Copyright © 1999-2001 Great Blue Media Works Last Updated: Friday, November 2, 2007 11:40am MT

Send feedback on these pages to: BMail@greatblue.com
B-Mail Message Content Disclaimer
Layout Copyright © 1999-2001 Great Blue Media Works
Last Updated: Friday, November 2, 2007 11:40am MT
