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ID-FRONTIERS for February 13-19, 2005
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| early Barn Swallow migration | Ian Paulsen | Sun, 13 Feb 2005 | 12:38pm |
| Re: early Barn Swallow migration | Lethaby, Nick | Mon, 14 Feb 2005 | 9:01am |
| Re: early Barn Swallow migration | Mike Patterson | Mon, 14 Feb 2005 | 9:12am |
| Re: early Barn Swallow migration | Lethaby, Nick | Mon, 14 Feb 2005 | 9:47am |
| Re: early Barn Swallow migration | John Wilson | Mon, 14 Feb 2005 | 10:24pm |
| Re: Flat-backed Dowitchers | Matt Kenne | Tue, 15 Feb 2005 | 8:59am |
| Re: early Barn Swallow migration | Luke Cole | Tue, 15 Feb 2005 | 10:01am |
| Re: early Barn Swallow migration | Lethaby, Nick | Tue, 15 Feb 2005 | 10:10am |
| possible SBGU in Illinois | Michael L. P. Retter | Wed, 16 Feb 2005 | 12:27am |
| Re: possible SBGU in Illinois | Lethaby, Nick | Wed, 16 Feb 2005 | 9:10am |
| Re: possible SBGU in Illinois | Phillip Pickering | Wed, 16 Feb 2005 | 9:27am |
| Re: ID of Raptor Photo from Spain | David Sibley | Wed, 16 Feb 2005 | 10:56am |
| Nighthawk in S. Texas | Richard Hoyer | Wed, 16 Feb 2005 | 4:14pm |
| Corrected nighthawk link | Richard Hoyer | Wed, 16 Feb 2005 | 4:22pm |
| Re: ID of Raptor Photo from Spain | Bruce Mactavish | Wed, 16 Feb 2005 | 5:55pm |
| Re: Nighthawk in S. Texas | Richard Hoyer | Wed, 16 Feb 2005 | 6:31pm |
| Re: Santa Ana Nighthawk | Michael Todd | Wed, 16 Feb 2005 | 9:47pm |
| Cool (& important) article in Science | Ted Floyd | Wed, 16 Feb 2005 | 10:17pm |
| Re: Important article in Science | Alan Dean | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 3:45am |
| Re: Santa Ana Nighthawk | Matt Sharp | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 8:21am |
| Circular Overlaps | Shaibal Mitra | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 9:13am |
| Great Tit in WA State | birdbooker(AT)zipcon.ne | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 3:05pm |
| Re: ID of Raptor Photo from Spain | Killian Mullarney | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 3:24pm |
| Re: Great Tit in WA State | John Idzikowski | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 3:31pm |
| Re: Great Tit in WA State | Allen Chartier | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 3:46pm |
| Re: ID of Raptor Photo from Spain | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricar | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 4:21pm |
| Re: Great Tit in WA State | creagrus | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 4:34pm |
| Re: Great Tit in WA State | creagrus | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 4:38pm |
| Re: Nighthawk in S. Texas | Richard Hoyer | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 6:57pm |
| Re: Nighthawk in S. Texas | Caleb Putnam | Thu, 17 Feb 2005 | 9:58pm |
| mail for the owner of the list | cappe.em(AT)FREE.FR | Fri, 18 Feb 2005 | 4:08am |
| Re: ID of Raptor Photo from Spain | Allen Chartier | Fri, 18 Feb 2005 | 7:18am |
| RE : ID of Raptor Photo from Spain | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierr | Fri, 18 Feb 2005 | 7:53am |
| Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | BrianJSmall(AT)AOL.COM | Sat, 19 Feb 2005 | 4:00am |
| Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | BrianJSmall(AT)AOL.COM | Sat, 19 Feb 2005 | 4:00am |
| Re: yet more 'rare' gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | Peter Adriaens | Sat, 19 Feb 2005 | 10:10am |
| Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | Phillip Pickering | Sat, 19 Feb 2005 | 11:56am |
| Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | Norman D.van Swelm | Sat, 19 Feb 2005 | 4:30pm |
| Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | Nicholas Block | Sat, 19 Feb 2005 | 5:04pm |
| Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | Phillip Pickering | Sat, 19 Feb 2005 | 10:03pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: early Barn Swallow migration
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 13 Feb 2005 12:38pm
HI:
For the past few winters barn swallows on the west coast of North America
have shown up in late January-early February. Has anybody come up with an
explanation for this? It seems to me there's this early migration period
and then a gap and then the regular timed migration in April. Has anyone
else noticed this pattern?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: early Barn Swallow migration
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 14 Feb 2005 9:01am
Yes we get this in Santa Barbara. Some show up at Xmas and then there is
a big gap until spring migration. It's a recent phenomenon of the last 4
years I think.
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian Paulsen
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 11:40 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] early Barn Swallow migration
HI:
For the past few winters barn swallows on the west coast of North
America
have shown up in late January-early February. Has anybody come up with
an
explanation for this? It seems to me there's this early migration period
and then a gap and then the regular timed migration in April. Has anyone
else noticed this pattern?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: early Barn Swallow migration
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 14 Feb 2005 9:12am
You might also want to take a good look at the tail
length. It has been suggested that these "early" birds
are youngster (1st winter).
In theory at least, SY birds should have short looking
tails with broad looking tips. They should also all
look like dull females.
"Lethaby, Nick" wrote:
>
> Yes we get this in Santa Barbara. Some show up at Xmas and then there is
> a big gap until spring migration. It's a recent phenomenon of the last 4
> years I think.
>
> Nick Lethaby
> DSP/BIOS Product Manager
> Software Development Systems
> Texas Instruments
> 805 562 5106
> nlethaby(AT)ti.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian Paulsen
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 11:40 AM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] early Barn Swallow migration
>
> HI:
> For the past few winters barn swallows on the west coast of North
> America
> have shown up in late January-early February. Has anybody come up with
> an
> explanation for this? It seems to me there's this early migration period
> and then a gap and then the regular timed migration in April. Has anyone
> else noticed this pattern?
>
> --
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
> A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
> "Rallidae all the way!"
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
- Arlo Guthrie
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: early Barn Swallow migration
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 14 Feb 2005 9:47am
I would agree that the birds look like immatures.
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mike Patterson
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:14 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] early Barn Swallow migration
You might also want to take a good look at the tail
length. It has been suggested that these "early" birds
are youngster (1st winter).
In theory at least, SY birds should have short looking
tails with broad looking tips. They should also all
look like dull females.
"Lethaby, Nick" wrote:
>
> Yes we get this in Santa Barbara. Some show up at Xmas and then there
is
> a big gap until spring migration. It's a recent phenomenon of the last
4
> years I think.
>
> Nick Lethaby
> DSP/BIOS Product Manager
> Software Development Systems
> Texas Instruments
> 805 562 5106
> nlethaby(AT)ti.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian Paulsen
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 11:40 AM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] early Barn Swallow migration
>
> HI:
> For the past few winters barn swallows on the west coast of North
> America
> have shown up in late January-early February. Has anybody come up with
> an
> explanation for this? It seems to me there's this early migration
period
> and then a gap and then the regular timed migration in April. Has
anyone
> else noticed this pattern?
>
> --
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
> A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
> "Rallidae all the way!"
--
Mike Patterson
Astoria, OR
celata(AT)pacifier.com
If you want to end war and stuff, you've got to sing loud
- Arlo Guthrie
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: early Barn Swallow migration
From: John Wilson <jcwilson(AT)LIGHTSPEED.NET>
Date: 14 Feb 2005 10:24pm
Hi all,
There has been a marked increase in the number of Barn Swallows being
reported on California CBC's over the last few years. For instance, the
91st CBC season had no Barn Swallows reported in California. Last
season (the 104th) 39 counts reported 774 Barn Swallows.
You can go to the Audubon CBC web site:
http://www.audubon.org/bird/cbc/index and custom-make a table of any
species and any state or count circle and look at the numbers.
Good Birding,
John C. Wilson
Editor, California Christmas Bird Counts.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Flat-backed Dowitchers
From: Matt Kenne <mkenne(AT)NETAMUMAIL.COM>
Date: 15 Feb 2005 8:59am
Greetings,
I broached the subject of "flat-backed" dowitchers from Sibley's field
guide the other day and got very little response. Now I see Dennis
Paulson's new shorebird photo book states: "Difference in posture when
feeding sometimes evident, Short-billed with flatter back, Long-billed
with rounded back; significance and cause unknown." As this hasn't
appeared in any previous dowitcher research or identification articles
that I'm aware of, I'm wondering if this is a word-of-mouth feature
widely used in some parts of the country? The webpage offered in support
of these differences: http://www.crossleybirds.com/gallery/album04
leaves me no clearer on the subject (actual dates/locations would be
helpful), but I'll comment on some of the photos from my perspective and
see where it leads us. My concern is that "flat-back" and other marks
pointed to (like dark tails on flying birds and underwing pattern) might
make often-difficult silent dowitcher identification TOO easy.
Photo-
1. I'll buy SBDO on left and LBDO on right based on plumage, but I don't
see basic SBDO here so other birders' impressions would be very
interesting. If the id is right, the flat/hump works here.
2. I dunno. The 4 basic birds just aren't clear enough in detail for me,
but to claim differences in back shape based on that posture? That's not
how it's supposed to work.
3. I disagree with the caption. Allowing for monitor differences, the
bird on the left is the correct Henderson SBDO ventral color, and the
pattern on the back, spotting in the vent area instead of barring,
primary extension, and spotting on the sides of the upper breast also
support SBDO.
4. I'm suddenly wary when LBDO, Henderson, and Griseus are all claimed
in the same photo. That said, I've never knowingly seen Griseus. I don't
think the right bird is Henderson, and it certainly doesn't look much
different than those on the left. I don't see any LBDO Pac-Men on the
center bird's back- maybe August wear? But its breast color, even if
faded, doesn't look appreciably different in tone than those on the left.
6. This is the first time I've ever heard claim of a substantial
difference in underwing pattern between the two dows. I've not seen it
illustrated in photos or field guides. Any slight variation between them
would hardly be usable "field" marks as on Golden Plovers.
7. It's a LBDO because of the tertial pattern, not because it's "fat".
9. The "humpback" thing isn't working here at all.
10. You can't rely on the tail pattern of standing birds, but you should
use it on birds that are flying by? What?
11. They look pretty "humpbacked" to me, but shouldn't if SBDO.
13. Definitely not "field" marks. Probably not "photo" marks.
14. According to the guidelines, shouldn't these have "humpbacks" if
they're LBDO?
16. You surely can't judge back posture in this pose- it's supposed to
be head-down when feeding.
17. I would judge the center bird LBDO based on reddish central retrices
and Pac-Men fringing the back feathers, but this is another version of
the "identify-the-bird-flying-by" that I don't have much faith in for
real life. Ditto for the fourth from the left and its "markings-no
markings-markings" pattern on the side. I would expect very few birders
with tons of experience to be able pick similar birds out of a flying
flock- it's certainly nothing a casual birder should be encouraged to do.
Taking a break from the gulls,
Matthew Kenne
Algona, Iowa
mkenne(AT)netamumail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: early Barn Swallow migration
From: Luke Cole <luke(AT)IGC.ORG>
Date: 15 Feb 2005 10:01am
My sense is that John's CBC data may be a partial explanation of the
phenomenon: some Barn Swallows are just not moving as far south in winter,
or are returning north sooner (like December). Those swallows then push
north in the later winter (January) for the northern records in Washington,
etc. The regular swallow migration takes place later, but the bimodal
distribution happens as the early ones move north in early early migration.
Here in San Francisco, we have had swallows on the Christmas count for
several years, and then they seem to disappear again (this may be changes in
observer behavior, though -- CBCs canvass more thoroughly than we might
otherwise). Where they end up up north, I dont yet know.
Luke
Luke Cole
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilson" <jcwilson(AT)LIGHTSPEED.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] early Barn Swallow migration
> Hi all,
> There has been a marked increase in the number of Barn Swallows being
> reported on California CBC's over the last few years. For instance, the
> 91st CBC season had no Barn Swallows reported in California. Last
> season (the 104th) 39 counts reported 774 Barn Swallows.
> You can go to the Audubon CBC web site:
> http://www.audubon.org/bird/cbc/index and custom-make a table of any
> species and any state or count circle and look at the numbers.
> Good Birding,
> John C. Wilson
> Editor, California Christmas Bird Counts.
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: early Barn Swallow migration
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 15 Feb 2005 10:10am
I'm quite sure the birds do actually disappear fairly soon after Xmas.
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Luke Cole
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:08 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] early Barn Swallow migration
My sense is that John's CBC data may be a partial explanation of the
phenomenon: some Barn Swallows are just not moving as far south in
winter,
or are returning north sooner (like December). Those swallows then push
north in the later winter (January) for the northern records in
Washington,
etc. The regular swallow migration takes place later, but the bimodal
distribution happens as the early ones move north in early early
migration.
Here in San Francisco, we have had swallows on the Christmas count for
several years, and then they seem to disappear again (this may be
changes in
observer behavior, though -- CBCs canvass more thoroughly than we might
otherwise). Where they end up up north, I dont yet know.
Luke
Luke Cole
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilson" <jcwilson(AT)LIGHTSPEED.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] early Barn Swallow migration
> Hi all,
> There has been a marked increase in the number of Barn Swallows being
> reported on California CBC's over the last few years. For instance,
the
> 91st CBC season had no Barn Swallows reported in California. Last
> season (the 104th) 39 counts reported 774 Barn Swallows.
> You can go to the Audubon CBC web site:
> http://www.audubon.org/bird/cbc/index and custom-make a table of any
> species and any state or count circle and look at the numbers.
> Good Birding,
> John C. Wilson
> Editor, California Christmas Bird Counts.
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: possible SBGU in Illinois
From: "Michael L. P. Retter" <mlretter(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 16 Feb 2005 12:27am
Hello all,
Today I photographed what I believe is a second cycle
Slaty-backed Gull at Chautauqua NWR in central
Illinois. So far as I can tell, the bird is nearly
perfect for what one would expect in mid-February.
I'm curious as to others' takes on this bird.
Photos of the bird and a sketch of the upperwing can
be found here:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/album?.dir=b3c7&.src=ph
Following my closing, I'll include my written
description.
Though the sketch may be easier to interpret, the wing
pattern may also be seen in this photo:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/detail?.dir=b3c7&.dnm=60d1.jpg&.src=ph
Note especially that the pale patch distally in the
primaries is not a light artifact (glare); this is
actually how the bird looks.
I am quite certain this bird is a Slaty-backed Gull,
but as there are no confirmed records of non-adults in
the lower 48, I'm leery to call it anything but a
probable Slaty-backed Gull at the moment.
========================
Michael L. P. Retter
Bloomington-Normal
McLean Co, Illinois
mlretter AT yahoo.com
309.824.7317
========================
SLATY-BACKED GULL (Larus schistisagus), presumed
second cycle
Chautauqua NWR, Mason Co, IL 02/15/2005, 14:30-15:30
CST
Observers: Ken Behrens, Michael Retter
The bird was under observation for approximately one
hour, as close as 75 yds. and as distant as 250.
Overall impression was of a large, whitish gull with a
black bill. The palest parts of the bird were its
wing coverts and head.
HEAD
Mostly white, with light dusky smudging about and
behind the eye.
BARE PARTS
Bill mostly black, but with some dark pink coming in
at the base: no more than 1/4 to 1/5 of the bill.
Structurally, bill thicker and not as long and
narrow as those of the adjacent HERGs. Contrasted
markedly with the whitish head. Legs a colorful
carnation pink, relatively bright for a bird of its
age. Eye color was not discernable.
UNDERPARTS
Overall mottled light grayish-dusky, but paler on the
breast, gradually transitioning into the whitish head.
The undertail coverts were not seen well.
TAIL and RUMP
Tail completely dark blackish. Rump bleached whitish,
with a few pale dusky markings.
WINGS
The primaries were curiously-patterned. The inner
webs were completely pale save a dark subterminal
band, but the outer webs were dark basally and pale
distally and again dark subterminally, creating an odd
whitish subterminal/marginal wedge on the spread wing
that contrasted with the similarly-patterned greater
primary coverts. This pattern can be seen in shots of
the spread wing and also in photos of the perched
bird, if one looks at the underside of the 10th
primary on the wing opposite the photographer. When
perched, the primaries had very broad pale edges,
especially on the inner webs. Overall, on the perched
bird, the primaries were the darkest part of the wing,
noticeably darker than the tertials.
The secondaries were one of the darkest parts of the
spread wing, and in flight they created an obvious
secondary bar. The secondary coverts were probably
the palest part of the wing. The greaters were white
with dark tips, and the lessers and medians were
bleached almost completely white. The leading edge of
the arm of the wing was a medium dusky color,
contrasting quite a bit with the bleached coverts aft.
From below on the spread wing, the flight feathers
were completely pale save a dark subterminal band on
the primaries. The coverts were quite dusky, making
the bird appear to have “dirty armpits”. This color
bled over the leading edge onto the top of the wings.
(Note that the very tips of all wing feathers are
white.)
MANTLE
Strikingly pale at first glance, with greatly
contrasting dark gray marks in the scapulars. Other
than the scapulars, the mantle was extremely bleached.
The gray feathers in the mantle should age the bird
as one in its second cycle. Though not obvious in a
profile view because they are obscured by pale feather
edgings, when viewed from behind, the mantle had a
noticeable dark gray “V” caused by the dark gray
centers of the scapulars. The tertials were fairly
solid medium-dusky with
broad, pale edges.
=====
========================
Michael L. P. Retter
Bloomington-Normal
McLean Co, Illinois
mlretter AT yahoo.com
309.824.7317
========================
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: possible SBGU in Illinois
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 16 Feb 2005 9:10am
The eye looks dark to me (with a pale eye being obvious on another gull
- presumably a Herring - in one of the photos). Since your notes also
state the eye color could not be determined (when pale eyes were obvious
on the other gulls), this further suggests the bird didn't have a pale
eye. This would not be at all typical for a second cycle SB Gull.
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael L. P. Retter
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:27 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] possible SBGU in Illinois
Hello all,
Today I photographed what I believe is a second cycle
Slaty-backed Gull at Chautauqua NWR in central
Illinois. So far as I can tell, the bird is nearly
perfect for what one would expect in mid-February.
I'm curious as to others' takes on this bird.
Photos of the bird and a sketch of the upperwing can
be found here:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/album?.dir=b3c7&.src=ph
Following my closing, I'll include my written
description.
Though the sketch may be easier to interpret, the wing
pattern may also be seen in this photo:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/detail?.dir=b3c7&.dnm=60d1.jpg&.s
rc=ph
Note especially that the pale patch distally in the
primaries is not a light artifact (glare); this is
actually how the bird looks.
I am quite certain this bird is a Slaty-backed Gull,
but as there are no confirmed records of non-adults in
the lower 48, I'm leery to call it anything but a
probable Slaty-backed Gull at the moment.
========================
Michael L. P. Retter
Bloomington-Normal
McLean Co, Illinois
mlretter AT yahoo.com
309.824.7317
========================
SLATY-BACKED GULL (Larus schistisagus), presumed
second cycle
Chautauqua NWR, Mason Co, IL 02/15/2005, 14:30-15:30
CST
Observers: Ken Behrens, Michael Retter
The bird was under observation for approximately one
hour, as close as 75 yds. and as distant as 250.
Overall impression was of a large, whitish gull with a
black bill. The palest parts of the bird were its
wing coverts and head.
HEAD
Mostly white, with light dusky smudging about and
behind the eye.
BARE PARTS
Bill mostly black, but with some dark pink coming in
at the base: no more than 1/4 to 1/5 of the bill.
Structurally, bill thicker and not as long and
narrow as those of the adjacent HERGs. Contrasted
markedly with the whitish head. Legs a colorful
carnation pink, relatively bright for a bird of its
age. Eye color was not discernable.
UNDERPARTS
Overall mottled light grayish-dusky, but paler on the
breast, gradually transitioning into the whitish head.
The undertail coverts were not seen well.
TAIL and RUMP
Tail completely dark blackish. Rump bleached whitish,
with a few pale dusky markings.
WINGS
The primaries were curiously-patterned. The inner
webs were completely pale save a dark subterminal
band, but the outer webs were dark basally and pale
distally and again dark subterminally, creating an odd
whitish subterminal/marginal wedge on the spread wing
that contrasted with the similarly-patterned greater
primary coverts. This pattern can be seen in shots of
the spread wing and also in photos of the perched
bird, if one looks at the underside of the 10th
primary on the wing opposite the photographer. When
perched, the primaries had very broad pale edges,
especially on the inner webs. Overall, on the perched
bird, the primaries were the darkest part of the wing,
noticeably darker than the tertials.
The secondaries were one of the darkest parts of the
spread wing, and in flight they created an obvious
secondary bar. The secondary coverts were probably
the palest part of the wing. The greaters were white
with dark tips, and the lessers and medians were
bleached almost completely white. The leading edge of
the arm of the wing was a medium dusky color,
contrasting quite a bit with the bleached coverts aft.
From below on the spread wing, the flight feathers
were completely pale save a dark subterminal band on
the primaries. The coverts were quite dusky, making
the bird appear to have "dirty armpits". This color
bled over the leading edge onto the top of the wings.
(Note that the very tips of all wing feathers are
white.)
MANTLE
Strikingly pale at first glance, with greatly
contrasting dark gray marks in the scapulars. Other
than the scapulars, the mantle was extremely bleached.
The gray feathers in the mantle should age the bird
as one in its second cycle. Though not obvious in a
profile view because they are obscured by pale feather
edgings, when viewed from behind, the mantle had a
noticeable dark gray "V" caused by the dark gray
centers of the scapulars. The tertials were fairly
solid medium-dusky with
broad, pale edges.
=====
========================
Michael L. P. Retter
Bloomington-Normal
McLean Co, Illinois
mlretter AT yahoo.com
309.824.7317
========================
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: possible SBGU in Illinois
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 16 Feb 2005 9:27am
> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/album?.dir=b3c7&.src=ph
Another interesting candidate, although again it does not
appear to be "safe", at least based on these shots. For
starters I think it would have to be a 1st-cycle if it were S-b.
2C at this time of year generally seem to show at least a bit
of detectable adult gray coming in on the scaps, if not elsewhere
in the mantle. As far as I can tell the dark scap markings are
all normal (Herring and S-b) 1C gray-brown. The scap
pattern itself also seems typical of a 1C bird in Feb, with 2nd-
gen upper scaps (dark anchor shapes on tips and pale centers)
over a few remaining dark-centered juvenile lower. The amount
of wear and bleaching as evident in the photos seems extreme
for a 2C in Feb and also strongly suggests 1C. The ultra high-
contrast secondary bar also favors 1C.
Otherwise as drawn and as apparent in the flight shot the primary
pattern seems strange and extreme for anything, inc. S-b. There
is too much white in the greater primary coverts, and the white
appears to extend onto the *outer* primary webs inward from
where you would expect the tongues (string of pearls) to appear on
an adult. The primary pattern does not match any 1C or 2C S-b
photo I've ever found, or the drawings for either age in O & L.
Also structurally it isn't perfect, with what seems to me to be a
bit too long of a primary extention beyond both the tertials and tail.
Also the apparently head shape and somewhat long bill with a
rather steep culmen downcurve, while perhaps not out of range
for S-b, to me seem subtly more Herring-like.
So while I can't rule out an odd (1C) S-b, IMHO this is another
bird that doesn't quite fit their patterns of appearance enough to
inspire confidence for an extralimital. I think it could easily be
an odd Herring or hybrid something.
Cheers,
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
From: David Sibley <david_sibley(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 16 Feb 2005 10:56am
Hi all,
I'm catching up on some reading and wanted to revisit this raptor photo
http://www.olivabedandbreakfast.com/Goshawk.jpg. I agree that the bird is an
Accipiter and not a harrier. On the other hand, I wonder about the
conclusion that it is a goshawk. The ground color of the underparts looks
too white, the coverts and scapulars too dark, and there is no obvious tawny
or buff color anywhere.
The white spots showing on the scapulars look like the rounded white spots
set on a uniform dark background typical of the smaller accipiters, while
Goshawk should have more irregular pale spots there and more pale color and
variety in the pattern of the scapulars. The dark nape with vague or no
streaks is also wrong for Goshawk. The white patches in the wing coverts are
better for goshawk than for the smaller accipiters, but there is no sign of
the neat pale edges on every lesser covert or the overall paler and more
variegated wing pattern of Goshawk.
I don't know what it is. I am confident that it is not Sharp-shinned or
Cooper's Hawk, and I guess eye color eliminates Levant Sparrowhawk, and
underparts pattern eliminates Eurasian Sparrowhawk. Maybe it is a goshawk,
but I'd feel better about it if someone can show that juvenile Goshawks can
look as dark-backed and white-breasted as this bird looks. I don't think
American Goshawks ever look like this. Maybe the problem is that I don't
know enough about the variation in goshawks (and I know almost nothing about
European Goshawks). I'm anxious to learn.
David Sibley
Concord, MA
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul A. Guris
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 1:49 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
The photo at the link below was identified as an immature Goshawk. I have
had a
short e-mail discussion about this ID. Before expressing my opinion to the
list, I would like to solicit comments from this list. Thanks.
The photo is at:
http://www.olivabedandbreakfast.com/Goshawk.jpg
-Paul
Paul A. Guris
See Life Paulagics
P.O. Box 161
Green Lane, PA 18054
www.paulagics.com
215-234-6805
paul(AT)paulagics.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Nighthawk in S. Texas
From: Richard Hoyer <calliope(AT)THERIVER.COM>
Date: 16 Feb 2005 4:14pm
Dear ID-Frontiers,
A nighthawk wintering at Santa Ana NWR in the Lower Rio Grande Valley
of Texas has generated some disagreement.
I've uploaded a digiscoped image to my website at
http://personal.riverusers.com/~calliope/santaananighthaw.htm
I look forward to comments.
Rich
---
Rich Hoyer
Tucson, AZ
Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
---
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Corrected nighthawk link
From: Richard Hoyer <calliope(AT)THERIVER.COM>
Date: 16 Feb 2005 4:22pm
The final l got chopped off.
http://personal.riverusers.com/~calliope/santaananighthaw.html
Rich
---
Rich Hoyer
Tucson, AZ
Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
---
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 16 Feb 2005 5:55pm
I pondered over this photograph for too long last week and couldn't come
up with a better answer than Goshawk. Dave Sibley's email has rekindled
a further look at my limited supply of photos and illustrations in books
on European birds.
One question. Does the underparts pattern definitely rule out Eurasian
Sparrowhawk? Some illustrations of immature Eurasian Sparrowhawk show
vertical streaking on the upper chest followed by the trademark
horizontal banding on the mid and lower breast. Can the vertical
streaking extend down to the low central breast?? The markings on the
sides of the breast are different, thick arrowheads that may create a
pattern of horizontal barring when relaxed against the body.
I find it easier to accept this as being a Eurasian Sparrowhawk with
unusually extensive vertical breast streaking then having to swallow all
the not quite right features for Goshawk. I agree with others before me
who have implied the following as being imperfect for Goshawk: small
head, relatively large eye, small bill with long hook, solid crown, lack
of pale edges and internal markings on majority of scapulars and wing
coverts especially the lessers.
The bird looks frail enough to be a Goshawks lunch!
On a DNA test I'd place my bets on Eurasian Sparrowhawk.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Sibley
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:27 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
Hi all,
I'm catching up on some reading and wanted to revisit this raptor photo
http://www.olivabedandbreakfast.com/Goshawk.jpg. I agree that the bird
is an
Accipiter and not a harrier. On the other hand, I wonder about the
conclusion that it is a goshawk. The ground color of the underparts
looks
too white, the coverts and scapulars too dark, and there is no obvious
tawny
or buff color anywhere.
The white spots showing on the scapulars look like the rounded white
spots
set on a uniform dark background typical of the smaller accipiters,
while
Goshawk should have more irregular pale spots there and more pale color
and
variety in the pattern of the scapulars. The dark nape with vague or no
streaks is also wrong for Goshawk. The white patches in the wing coverts
are
better for goshawk than for the smaller accipiters, but there is no sign
of
the neat pale edges on every lesser covert or the overall paler and more
variegated wing pattern of Goshawk.
I don't know what it is. I am confident that it is not Sharp-shinned or
Cooper's Hawk, and I guess eye color eliminates Levant Sparrowhawk, and
underparts pattern eliminates Eurasian Sparrowhawk. Maybe it is a
goshawk,
but I'd feel better about it if someone can show that juvenile Goshawks
can
look as dark-backed and white-breasted as this bird looks. I don't think
American Goshawks ever look like this. Maybe the problem is that I don't
know enough about the variation in goshawks (and I know almost nothing
about
European Goshawks). I'm anxious to learn.
David Sibley
Concord, MA
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul A. Guris
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 1:49 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
The photo at the link below was identified as an immature Goshawk. I
have
had a
short e-mail discussion about this ID. Before expressing my opinion to
the
list, I would like to solicit comments from this list. Thanks.
The photo is at:
http://www.olivabedandbreakfast.com/Goshawk.jpg
-Paul
Paul A. Guris
See Life Paulagics
P.O. Box 161
Green Lane, PA 18054
www.paulagics.com
215-234-6805
paul(AT)paulagics.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Nighthawk in S. Texas
From: Richard Hoyer <calliope(AT)THERIVER.COM>
Date: 16 Feb 2005 6:31pm
Dear Birders,
I've had a few offline replies that show this to be more difficult and
interesting problem than I originally thought it would be.
I've added to the web page a diagram where I've outlined what I think
are the visible feather edges. It may be that there is indeed molt
going on, with p9 coming in. P10 on both sides seems very worn. Lesser
Nighthawk molts on the breeding grounds, while Common molts on the
wintering grounds.
http://personal.riverusers.com/~calliope/santaananighthaw.html
Happy Puzzling,
Rich
---
Rich Hoyer
Tucson, AZ
Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
---
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Santa Ana Nighthawk
From: Michael Todd <birder1(AT)BELLSOUTH.NET>
Date: 16 Feb 2005 9:47pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
All,
I recently saw and photographed the Nighthawk at Santa Ana that Rich =
Hoyer recently posted about. I came to the Lesser conclusion at the =
time, though admittedly this was my 1st experience with this species, or =
so I thought anyway. We based the ID chiefly on the placement of the =
white primary bar (well out from the primary bases, and past the =
tertials), and that there were a few very small, but visible, buffy =
spots on at least one primary, anterior of the primary bar.=20
Rich's photo looks like it may indeed show a primary molting in, if so =
that's got to be a big plus for Common. I haven't been able to find any =
photos of Common that match the primary bar placement of the Santa Ana =
bird, am I just missing them? I'm also unsure of the variability of the =
primary spotting on Lesser, as the Santa Ana bird shows very little. =
But, do adult male Commons ever show this?
Interesting topic, and one that I pondered over at the time. =20
My photos, are at: http://www.pbase.com/mctodd/image/39851088, this is =
the 1st of 3 captioned images. Just click "Next" beside the photo to =
view the next image.
Good birding!
Mike Todd
McKenzie, TN
birder1(AT)bellsouth.net
www.pbase.com/mctodd
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Cool (& important) article in Science
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd(AT)ABA.ORG>
Date: 16 Feb 2005 10:17pm
Hello, Birders.
There's an interesting article in a recent issue of -Science-. It's
"Speciation by distance in a ring species", by D. E. Irwin et al. (21
January 2005, vol. 307, pp. 414-416). The particular ring-species
complex being studied here involves the polymorphic Greenish Warbler
(Phylloscopus trochiloides), which forms a ring around the inhospitable
Tibetan Plateau. Populations of P. t. viridanus and P. t. plumbeitarsus
overlap and are reproductively isolated in central Siberia, but they are
joined by a ring of continuous variation. Possibly, the taxon originated
in the south, in the Himalayas, and then spread north in two advancing
fronts around the eastern and western edges of the Tibetan Plateau;
secondary contact, between viridanus and plumbeitarsus, resulted, with
these two northern populations being reproductively isolated from one
another. Note that the Irwin et al. study is the first properly
documented example of a continuous genetic gradient between two
genetically differentiated and reproductively isolated populations.
What does it all mean? Here are my interpretations:
* Greenish Warbler is both a lump and a split. As I'm sure y'all can
imagine, I am just *so* distressed by the angst that this sort of
Heisenbergian reality creates for listers.
* While many of the subscribers to this list are not fortunate enough to
have extensive experience with Greenish Warbler, the results *are* of
relevance to various more-widespread and more-familiar taxa, e.g.,
Horned Lark, Herring Gull.
* And in addition to other ring-species suspects, such as Horned Lark
and Herring Gull, there is the more-complex and more-fascinating problem
of mosaic populations, e.g., Song Sparrow (maxima x saltonis hybrids?
umm?), Savannah Sparrow (princeps x rostratus? ahh?).
----------------------------
Ted Floyd
Editor,
Birding
American Birding Association
P.O. Box 7974
Boulder, Colorado 80306-7974
303-444-6363
tedfloyd(AT)aba.org
Please visit the website of the
American Birding Association:
http://www.americanbirding.org
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Important article in Science
From: Alan Dean <alan_r_dean(AT)BTINTERNET.COM>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 3:45am
>>
-----Original Message---------------------------------------
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ted Floyd
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 05:17
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Cool (& important) article in Science
Hello, Birders.
There's an interesting article in a recent issue of -Science-. It's
"Speciation by distance in a ring species", by D. E. Irwin et al. (21
January 2005, vol. 307, pp. 414-416).
<skip>
What does it all mean? Here are my interpretations:
* Greenish Warbler is both a lump and a split. As I'm sure y'all can
imagine, I am just *so* distressed by the angst that this sort of
Heisenbergian reality creates for listers.
* While many of the subscribers to this list are not fortunate enough to
have extensive experience with Greenish Warbler, the results *are* of
relevance to various more-widespread and more-familiar taxa, e.g.,
Horned Lark, Herring Gull.
* And in addition to other ring-species suspects, such as Horned Lark
and Herring Gull, there is the more-complex and more-fascinating problem
of mosaic populations, e.g., Song Sparrow (maxima x saltonis hybrids?
umm?), Savannah Sparrow (princeps x rostratus? ahh?).
Ted Floyd
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<
In relation to Herring Gull, see:
Liebers, D., de Knijff, P., & Helbig A.J. 'The herring gull complex is not a
ring species', Proc. R. Soc. Lond. B. May 07, 2004, vol. 271, no. 1542, pp.
893-901(9). Purchasable on-line at:
www.ingentaconnect.com/content/rsl/rpb/2004/00000271/00001542/art00002
Basically, the Herring Gull complex is deemed to stem from two separate
ancestral lineages, separated in a North Atlantic refugium and a continental
refugium, respectively. The members of the complex are deemed to have
evolved largely in allopatry not primarily through 'isolation by distance'.
It is concluded that complex is not an example of a ring species.
In Eurasia at least, the 'Greenish Warbler' complex remains one of very few
(the only?) viable example(s) of a ring species.
regards, Alan Dean
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Santa Ana Nighthawk
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 8:21am
For what it is worth I have a page of Nighthawks here:
http://www.acnatsci.org/~wechsler/lightbox/Id-Front/Nighthawks.html
This was set up in response to a Nov. Nighthawk in NJ and I am not
sure if I ever posted the URL to ID-frontiers. Note that at least 1 bird.
the Antillean Nighthawk #f20/5/166 may be mis-ided. Comments on
that would be appreciated.
I think Michael Todd brings up some good points regarding the placement
of the white in the wing. It seems to fit Lesser better than Common. Regarding
the apparent wing-molt, note that Pyle says "The PBs occur primarily on the
breeding grounds" suggesting that some birds will molt elsewhere. Molt can be
delayed for a variety of reasons and a delayed wing molt may be more likely
than such an extreme variation in plumage (including the buff spots on the
primaries).
Also note that in Pyle again "p10 usually less than or equal to p9" and his fig.
67
shows this. Another interpretation of the the wings of the Santa Ana bird could
be that there is no molt and that P10 an p9 are the 2 feather visible on the
far wing and that the visible primaries on the near wing are 10,9,8,7,6.
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Circular Overlaps
From: Shaibal Mitra <mitra(AT)mail.csi.cuny.edu>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 9:13am
I disagree with the perception that circular overlaps are very rare. These are
actually just extremely patterned examples of a more general category, in which
the degree of reproductive isolation between taxa varies geographically, that is
not at all rare. Tidy rings (continuously interbreeding populations showing
sympatry and reproductive isolation between terminal links) have been documented
in detail for the salamander Ensatina in California and others, and messier
mosaics are probably fairly common (Spotted and Collared Towhees are a
well-known example). ‘Refutations’ of circular overlaps can be hard to judge,
because some critiques merely challenge the circular pattern (and the associated
presumption of tidy isolation by distance), whereas others actually reveal that
multiple ‘good’ species are involved (and that reproductive isolation is not
varying from place to place, as thought). Most of these nuances can be
confidently resolved only with a great deal of field data
In contrast, many of the recent phylogeographic studies that have produced
unexpected answers to our favorite taxonomic puzzles have depended primarily or
exclusively on mitochondrial DNA sequence analyses. As discussed in several
previous threads in this forum, the conclusions of these sorts of analyses are
vulnerable to a host of historical processes that can produce taxonomic lineages
(taxon trees) that are NOT congruent with the mitochondrial genome lineages
(gene trees) that are, in many cases, the primary or only objects of analysis.
One very familiar example, for which I confess I remain a skeptic, is that of
the Herring Gulls--for which it has been proposed that North American and West
European populations are not closely related to each other, but rather that each
is more closely related to more disparate-looking taxa on their respective
continents. Maybe this is so, but there are other explanations for why these
gulls could share mtDNA haplotypes with their geographic neighbors rather than
with each other.
The reason that the Herring Gull complex was once regarded as a ring species is
that the various populations ringing the high latitudes of North America,
Siberia, Russia, and Western Europe were observed to show sympatric,
reproductively isolated populations in only one place--Northwestern Europe,
where Herring Gulls and Lesser Black-backed Gulls breed side by side with only
rare hybridization. Elsewhere, the various populations were thought to be
either allopatric, parapatric, or broadly intergrading.
One would assume from the recent frenzy of splitting that has elevated so many
populations to species status that this last supposition had been clearly
refuted. Has it? My very simple question to this group is as follows.
Have rigorous field studies demonstrated actual sympatric breeding, without
significant hybridization, between any of the following taxa?
argentatus/argenteus
smithsonianus
vegae
taimyrensis
heuglini
fuscus
intermedius/graellsii
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at mail.csi.cuny.edu
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Great Tit in WA State
From: birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net
Date: 17 Feb 2005 3:05pm
HI:
A Great Tit has been reported from WA State. I was wondering if there's a
chance that it is wild bird?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
From: Killian Mullarney <kmullarney(AT)EIRCOM.NET>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 3:24pm
I looked at this photo when the question of identity was initially raised,
concluded that it was a just juv Goshawk and didn't think too much about it
(especially when the 'concern' in some quarters was that it might be a
harrier of some sort, which I believe it clearly is not). Reading David
Sibley's and Bruce Mactavish's thoughts on the bird prompted me to take
another look at the picture. In spite of Bruce's conclusion I think this
bird's plumage is well outside the range of juv Eurasian Sparrowhawk (and
juv Levant Sparrowhawk) but as I do not very often have chances to study
Goshawks, especially birds at rest, I thought I would ask my friend and
colleague Dan Zetterström of Sweden (who is very familiar with Sparrowhawk,
Goshawk and a host of other Accipiters from Africa and Asia, I expect) what
he thought of the bird. I forwarded him the two emails from David and Bruce,
to put him in the picture.
Here are his comments:
The hawk is interesting. Bearing in mind their is so many species of
Accipiter in the world it would have helped to know where the photo is
taken. Scotland, Botswana or USA?
Presuming it is Europe, I´m sure it´s a Goshawk.
I do not agree that bill look too small for Goshawk, to me it looks
perfectly okay for a fluffed up bird like this. I judge the size of bill
compared to size of eye.
The rather plain-looking earcoverts also suggest Goshawk as do the pattern
on the underparts. Some juv. (especially male) Sparrowhawks can show quite
extensive "streaking" on the breast (looking like the flanks in this bird)
but never really streaked like this. Groundcolour of underparts okay for
Goshawk too, some are really whitish, though warm buff is more typical.
However, I can´t get rid of the impression that this is a faded, slightly
desaturated picture (looking very much like my own videograbs in quality..)
not showing the absolute truth.
I can´t recall ever seeing pale, whitish bases to greater and median coverts
in sparrowhawk, forming bars like this, typical of young Goshawks.
The tarsus look too heavy for a Sparrowhawk.
What surprised me in this photo is the obvious white spotting on the
shoulders. I can´t recall I´ve noticed that on Goshawks before but that
could be because of "home blindness". I will surely check this more
carefully in future.
Yours,
Dan
--
Dan Zetterström
Smedstorpet, Kappstad 609
655 94 Karlstad
SWEDEN
+46 (0) 54-86 20 05
+46 (0) 705 91 68 97
danz(AT)work.utfors.se
Dick Forsman is abroad at the moment (in the company of Steller's Sea Eagles
in Japan) but he may well have something to say about this bird when he
returns.
Regards,
Killian Mullarney
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Great Tit in WA State
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 3:31pm
Wisconsin has had 2 nestings and about 6 other records in the last 4 years,
perhaps from origins in NE Illinois.
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
----- Original Message -----
From: <birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:07 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Great Tit in WA State
> HI:
> A Great Tit has been reported from WA State. I was wondering if there's a
chance that it is wild bird?
> --
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA USA
> A.K.A.:Birdbooker
> Rallidae all the way!
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Great Tit in WA State
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 3:46pm
Ian,
An escaped bird seems likely, especially if the bird has yellow underparts
and greenish back, which are characteristic of the western European races of
Great Tit (the ones most likely to be held in captivity, perhaps). If the
bird is whitish below and grayish above, with little or no green, it could
be one of the eastern Asian races, perhaps providing support to it being a
wild bird.
Any photos?
Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI 48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:07 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Great Tit in WA State
> HI:
> A Great Tit has been reported from WA State. I was wondering if there's a
chance that it is wild bird?
> --
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA USA
> A.K.A.:Birdbooker
> Rallidae all the way!
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricard__Guti=E9rrez?= <gutarb(AT)TERRA.ES>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 4:21pm
Hello all from Catalonia, NE Spain, Europe:
When I saw this photo, by the way from a regular contributor to rare birds
in Spain webpage, I gave not too much attention since it was clear to me it
was not a Circus but a Goshawk, albeit a bit small. The very large
supercilium was certainly a Goshawk point, as well as the typical breast
streaking, not barring as in Sparrowhawk (A.nisus).
When reading the mail from D.Sibley and Bruce, I gave it another view and
then certainly appreciated the small bill, then recalling A.nisus. However,
the Goshawk option was still the main one.
I have to say this is not an easy bird. To me is a 1w male given size and
proportions. We have these days a 1w female in our reserve and it is (as on
average these A.gentilis tend to be) almost if not larger than a Common
Buzzard (B.buteo). Bill proportions are also different.
The brown upperparts and streaked pattern are those of juv/1w. Proportions
of bill against head and overall size to me are those of a male, then
approaching female A.nisus, the possible pitfall.
The white spots on the back have to be either bases to inner coverts (as
quoted in the literature) or even moulting coverts, giving the bird the
appearance of somewhat 'in bad condition'. This 'look' is not unfrequent in
NE Spain.
The streaking in underparts would be the definitive clue. Never saw such a
pattern in A.nisus underparts.
Also, tarsi are quite strong for nisus as well.
I did this afternoon a small 'poll' in the Spanish list 'Avesforum' and five
people quoted without doubt A.gentilis and none A.nisus.
We've seen in our reserve Goshawks hunting (and ocassionally perching )even
within reedbeds, such as this bird, in the winter, following potential
preys. In turn, Sparrowhawk does not enter the marshes and stay in the
coastal pinewood of our reserve, never being seen over marshy areas.
Hope this helps
Ricard Gutiérrez
http://www.rarebirdspain.net
-----Mensaje original-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]En nombre de Killian Mullarney
Enviado el: jueves, 17 de febrero de 2005 23:24
Para: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Asunto: Re: [BIRDWG01] ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
I looked at this photo when the question of identity was initially raised,
concluded that it was a just juv Goshawk and didn't think too much about it
(especially when the 'concern' in some quarters was that it might be a
harrier of some sort, which I believe it clearly is not). Reading David
Sibley's and Bruce Mactavish's thoughts on the bird prompted me to take
another look at the picture. In spite of Bruce's conclusion I think this
bird's plumage is well outside the range of juv Eurasian Sparrowhawk (and
juv Levant Sparrowhawk) but as I do not very often have chances to study
Goshawks, especially birds at rest, I thought I would ask my friend and
colleague Dan Zetterström of Sweden (who is very familiar with Sparrowhawk,
Goshawk and a host of other Accipiters from Africa and Asia, I expect) what
he thought of the bird. I forwarded him the two emails from David and Bruce,
to put him in the picture.
Here are his comments:
The hawk is interesting. Bearing in mind their is so many species of
Accipiter in the world it would have helped to know where the photo is
taken. Scotland, Botswana or USA?
Presuming it is Europe, I´m sure it´s a Goshawk.
I do not agree that bill look too small for Goshawk, to me it looks
perfectly okay for a fluffed up bird like this. I judge the size of bill
compared to size of eye.
The rather plain-looking earcoverts also suggest Goshawk as do the pattern
on the underparts. Some juv. (especially male) Sparrowhawks can show quite
extensive "streaking" on the breast (looking like the flanks in this bird)
but never really streaked like this. Groundcolour of underparts okay for
Goshawk too, some are really whitish, though warm buff is more typical.
However, I can´t get rid of the impression that this is a faded, slightly
desaturated picture (looking very much like my own videograbs in quality..)
not showing the absolute truth.
I can´t recall ever seeing pale, whitish bases to greater and median coverts
in sparrowhawk, forming bars like this, typical of young Goshawks.
The tarsus look too heavy for a Sparrowhawk.
What surprised me in this photo is the obvious white spotting on the
shoulders. I can´t recall I´ve noticed that on Goshawks before but that
could be because of "home blindness". I will surely check this more
carefully in future.
Yours,
Dan
--
Dan Zetterström
Smedstorpet, Kappstad 609
655 94 Karlstad
SWEDEN
+46 (0) 54-86 20 05
+46 (0) 705 91 68 97
danz(AT)work.utfors.se
Dick Forsman is abroad at the moment (in the company of Steller's Sea Eagles
in Japan) but he may well have something to say about this bird when he
returns.
Regards,
Killian Mullarney
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Great Tit in WA State
From: creagrus <creagrus(AT)MONTEREYBAY.COM>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 4:34pm
Great Tits have occurred in California several times, all apparently of
European origin. They are obvious escapes from captivity. A photo of one
that summered in the nice riparian at the Big Sur R. mouth in Monterey
County is at http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTY_2003b.html [near the
bottom of the page of other wild highlights]. I believe there is a
record of a northeastern Asian bird from the Diomede Islands in the
Bering Strait, so subspecific identity is a key question.
Don Roberson
Pacific Grove CA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Great Tit in WA State
From: creagrus <creagrus(AT)MONTEREYBAY.COM>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 4:38pm
Great Tits have occurred in California several times, all apparently of
European origin. They are obvious escapes from captivity. A photo of one
that summered in the nice riparian at the Big Sur R. mouth in Monterey
County is at http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTY_2003b.html [near the
bottom of the page of the otherwise wild highlights]. I believe there
is a record of a northeastern Asian bird from the Diomede Islands in the
Bering Strait, so subspecific identity is a key question.
Don Roberson
Pacific Grove CA
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Nighthawk in S. Texas
From: Richard Hoyer <calliope(AT)THERIVER.COM>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 6:57pm
Dear ID-Frontiers,
At http://personal.riverusers.com/~calliope/santaananighthaw.html I've
corrected the labels of the feathers on my outline diagram. The photos
posted by Michael Todd were very helpful. What I had labeled as p10 of
each wing actually both belong to the right wing.
If the full complement of tertials is present, the position of the
white primary bar is better for Lesser Nighthawk.
More buffy spots are visible in the primaries in photos by Michael as
well as in some sent to me by Rick Fridell, and this argues for Lesser
Nighthawk.
If there is no molt in progress, p10 is shorter than p9, good only for
Lesser Nighthawk.
Finally, if the outer web if p10 is what we are actually seeing, the
white on it would also be diagnostic for Lesser Nighthawk.
The blackish on the scapulars, visible in all photos, is apparently
better for Common Nighthawk, but maybe this is a variable feature.
There may be something to the rows of obvous buffy spots on the wing
coverts, which are present in several on-line Lesser Nighthawk photos
but not in those of Common Nighthawk.
I'm quite comfortable with Lesser Nighthawk at this point, which would
be something of a relief. Common Nighthawk wintering in Texas would be
as unthinkable as Canada Warbler wintering in San Francisco. ;-)
Good Birding,
Rich
---
Rich Hoyer
Tucson, AZ
Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
---
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Nighthawk in S. Texas
From: Caleb Putnam <larus10(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 17 Feb 2005 9:58pm
Rich et al-
Regarding the photo and diagram at:
http://personal.riverusers.com/~calliope/santaananighthaw.html
I agree the bird is almost certainly a Lesser, but I think you have
mislabelled the primary tips in your diagram. What you have labelled "p9
(left wing)" appears to be p10 of the right wing, "p10" appears to be a
growing p9, "p9" is p8, and so on, down to p5, not "p6", being the first
primary tip visible beyond the longest tertial, and the primary tip that's
even with the white primary bar. In all the LENI photos I have found (and
in Pyle), p5 is the primary tip even with the white bar, not p6.
Furthermore, assuming it's a LENI, the large spacing between what you have
labelled p8 and p9 would be wrong, but is fine for p8 and p7 (cf. bottom
photo at
http://www.acnatsci.org/~wechsler/lightbox/Id-Front/Nighthawks.html).
The fact that p9 is still growing also explains why the white bar seems
unusually diagonal for LENI-- and perhaps why there is so little buffy
spotting visible. It also means active primary molt is occurring on the
breeding grounds, as stated earlier. That said, I wouldn't put much weight
on this as an ID feature, since any CONI attempting to winter in Texas
should also molt there (assuming it doesn't suspend/arrest).
Cheers,
Caleb Putnam
Caleb G Putnam
Grand Rapids, MI
larus10(AT)hotmail.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: mail for the owner of the list
From: cappe.em(AT)FREE.FR
Date: 18 Feb 2005 4:08am
sorry for using the list but I want to change my mail on the list to continue
to
receive the mails but no way to change it. How can I do ?
Thank you for the answer.
Emmanuel Cappe
cappe.em(AT)cegetel.net
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 18 Feb 2005 7:18am
Birders,
I have been watching this discussion quietly, but with great interest. The
Spanish raptor in question has puzzled me too, but I've noticed an
interesting pattern of responses, which might already be obvious to everyone
else on this list. European respondents seem to immediately and easily
identify it as a Northern Goshawk, while North American respondents seem to
be more varied and cautious in their assessments. For me too, the bird does
not look exactly like what I'd expect from a Northern Goshawk here in
Michigan.
Adult Northern Goshawks from the Old World show probably field-discernable
differences from New World adults, with New World birds showing a bluer
back, finer vermiculations below, and a blacker cap (hence the subspecies
name, atricapillus). These differences are well illustrated in Raptors of
the World (Ferguson-Lees & Christie, 2000). It seems that there might be
differences in juveniles as well, which might explain the bipolar responses
:-)
To that end, I have posted several photos, most in-hand, of two juvenile
Northern Goshawks (one male, one female) taken in North America at my
website:
http://www.amazilia.net/images/Birds/Hawks/NorthernGoshawk.htm
These photos show, I think, what we expect in North America in a juvenile
Northern Goshawk, including a buffy-tinged breast and belly, teardrop-shaped
dark centers on feathers of underparts, dark streaking on the white under
tail coverts, a fairly large bill (larger in females), a pale panel among
the secondary coverts (visible in the flight photo as well), and "wavy" dark
tail bands with very narrow pale outlines.
I hope these photos are instructive (note that they are numbered for easy
reference), and I look forward to seeing similar photos of Old World
juvenile Northern Goshawks posted for comparison.
Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI 48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet/index.htm
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RE : ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <pierre-andre.crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS.FR>
Date: 18 Feb 2005 7:53am
Dear all,
As for Killian Mullarney, my first reaction on seeing the picture was "yes, a
Goshawk, so what?". Then, after reading the comments of David Sibley and Bruce
Mactavish, I looked at it again, looked at pictures of juvenile Goshawk, and
began to doubt.
I have never seen a Eurasian Sparrowhawk with such a pattern on the underside,
hence my reluctance to accept that is could be that species. But I must say that
the pictures of juv Goshawk I have looked at show something not quite like the
Spanish bird... I'm thus left wondering, and waiting for Dick Forsman's
comments.
In the meantime, you can have a look at the picture collections at
www.tarsiger.com (go to "pictures" and 'search WP list")
and
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=specieslist
They have both A. nisus and A. gentilis to look at.
My guess would be that the Spanish bird is a juv male Goshawk, and that the
perceived differences are not as much between NA and European Goshawks as
between Northern (large and pale) (the pics on tarsiger.com are all from
Northern Europe) and southern (smaller and darker) Goshawks...
Pierre
PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL // ATTENTION NOUVELLE ADRESSE EMAIL
Pierre-André Crochet
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive
1919, route de Mende
34293 Montpellier cedex 5
France
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 (mobile)
+ 33 4 67 61 32 98 (office)
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38
pierre-andre.crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs.fr
-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Allen Chartier
Envoyé : 18 February 2005 15:24
À : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] ID of Raptor Photo from Spain
Birders,
I have been watching this discussion quietly, but with great interest. The
Spanish raptor in question has puzzled me too, but I've noticed an
interesting pattern of responses, which might already be obvious to everyone
else on this list. European respondents seem to immediately and easily
identify it as a Northern Goshawk, while North American respondents seem to
be more varied and cautious in their assessments. For me too, the bird does
not look exactly like what I'd expect from a Northern Goshawk here in
Michigan.
Adult Northern Goshawks from the Old World show probably field-discernable
differences from New World adults, with New World birds showing a bluer
back, finer vermiculations below, and a blacker cap (hence the subspecies
name, atricapillus). These differences are well illustrated in Raptors of
the World (Ferguson-Lees & Christie, 2000). It seems that there might be
differences in juveniles as well, which might explain the bipolar responses
:-)
To that end, I have posted several photos, most in-hand, of two juvenile
Northern Goshawks (one male, one female) taken in North America at my
website:
http://www.amazilia.net/images/Birds/Hawks/NorthernGoshawk.htm
These photos show, I think, what we expect in North America in a juvenile
Northern Goshawk, including a buffy-tinged breast and belly, teardrop-shaped
dark centers on feathers of underparts, dark streaking on the white under
tail coverts, a fairly large bill (larger in females), a pale panel among
the secondary coverts (visible in the flight photo as well), and "wavy" dark
tail bands with very narrow pale outlines.
I hope these photos are instructive (note that they are numbered for easy
reference), and I look forward to seeing similar photos of Old World
juvenile Northern Goshawks posted for comparison.
Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI 48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet/index.htm
--
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier
--
--
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier
--
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: BrianJSmall(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 19 Feb 2005 4:00am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
All
Re _http://www.martinreid.com/gullnews.html_
(http://www.martinreid.com/gullnews.html)
I have refrained from commenting on Martin's putstve atlantis Yellow-legged
Gull, not for any reason other than it is hard to know what to say.
Personally, I am of the opinion that none of them necessarily convinces me as
atlantis.
Taking the first four at his site, I would say this:-
1. Feb 17. This a first-winter lacks any of the moult of wing coverts and
tertials that is relatively typical of the form atlantis. As it tends to
settle to breed in Jan or Feb, the young in Jan or Feb of the following year
are
further advanced in moult or incredibly worn if unmoulted. This can often
form a strong contrast between (worn and bleached) old and new in the coverts.
The underparts are quite heavily marked, whereas they are often less
well-marked. Obviously, there will be exceptions to the rule, and some
atlantis do
look more like Lesser Black-backs, but to me this bird is not quite right.
2. This is labelled as a 2nd basic (2nd-winter) on Feb 08, but has a wholly
white tail (or virtually so). This is wrong, as in their 2nd-winter atlantis
and michahellis would have a black tail band; I also feel that the grey
coverts are replacing feathers that also look more like 2nd-generation
coverts.
I would age this as 3rd-winter, and therefore not right for Yellow-legged.
Quite why it has slightly darker grey mantle/scap feathers is more likely a
result of hybridity.
3. Feb 04. Possibly a 1-w atlantis, but again lacks the moult of coverts or
tertails, and the juvenile coverts do not appear worn enough. The ginger
quality of the scaps is an oft-quoted feature of YLG, but can also be matched
by
marinus. I have expressed this to Martin before, and feel that the head
shape here may also point to a possibility of small female marinus here.
4. Again Feb 04, a 1-w that has all of the concerns I have expressed above.
the tertials are worn and the pale areas worn away look perhaps odd for YLG.
I have written about this before at
_http://www.surfbirds.com/ID%20Articles/atlantisgulls.html_
(http://www.surfbirds.com/ID%20Articles/atlantisgulls.html)
This is a brief over-view of the 'atlantis' on the Canary Islands, and since
I seen them on Madeira. It is somewhat superceded by KMO's gull book, but
there are some images of 1-w atlantis that show what I have said above.
In February Herring Gulls here in the UK can often appear more michahellis
like as the mantle/scaps contrast with the slightly worn (and therefore darker
looking than normal) wing coverts. i wonder if that is what is happening in
Martin's photos also.
Brian Small
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: BrianJSmall(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 19 Feb 2005 4:00am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
All
Re _http://www.martinreid.com/gullnews.html_
(http://www.martinreid.com/gullnews.html)
I have refrained from commenting on Martin's putstve atlantis Yellow-legged
Gull, not for any reason other than it is hard to know what to say.
Personally, I am of the opinion that none of them necessarily convinces me as
atlantis.
Taking the first four at his site, I would say this:-
1. Feb 17. This a first-winter lacks any of the moult of wing coverts and
tertials that is relatively typical of the form atlantis. As it tends to
settle to breed in Jan or Feb, the young in Jan or Feb of the following year
are
further advanced in moult or incredibly worn if unmoulted. This can often
form a strong contrast between (worn and bleached) old and new in the coverts.
The underparts are quite heavily marked, whereas they are often less
well-marked. Obviously, there will be exceptions to the rule, and some
atlantis do
look more like Lesser Black-backs, but to me this bird is not quite right.
2. This is labelled as a 2nd basic (2nd-winter) on Feb 08, but has a wholly
white tail (or virtually so). This is wrong, as in their 2nd-winter atlantis
and michahellis would have a black tail band; I also feel that the grey
coverts are replacing feathers that also look more like 2nd-generation
coverts.
I would age this as 3rd-winter, and therefore not right for Yellow-legged.
Quite why it has slightly darker grey mantle/scap feathers is more likely a
result of hybridity.
3. Feb 04. Possibly a 1-w atlantis, but again lacks the moult of coverts or
tertails, and the juvenile coverts do not appear worn enough. The ginger
quality of the scaps is an oft-quoted feature of YLG, but can also be matched
by
marinus. I have expressed this to Martin before, and feel that the head
shape here may also point to a possibility of small female marinus here.
4. Again Feb 04, a 1-w that has all of the concerns I have expressed above.
the tertials are worn and the pale areas worn away look perhaps odd for YLG.
I have written about this before at
_http://www.surfbirds.com/ID%20Articles/atlantisgulls.html_
(http://www.surfbirds.com/ID%20Articles/atlantisgulls.html)
This is a brief over-view of the 'atlantis' on the Canary Islands, and since
I seen them on Madeira. It is somewhat superceded by KMO's gull book, but
there are some images of 1-w atlantis that show what I have said above.
In February Herring Gulls here in the UK can often appear more michahellis
like as the mantle/scaps contrast with the slightly worn (and therefore darker
looking than normal) wing coverts. i wonder if that is what is happening in
Martin's photos also.
Brian Small
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: yet more 'rare' gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: Peter Adriaens <peter.adriaens(AT)dutchbirding.nl>
Date: 19 Feb 2005 10:10am
>
> 2. This is labelled as a 2nd basic (2nd-winter) on Feb 08, but has a
> wholly
> white tail (or virtually so). This is wrong, as in their 2nd-winter
> atlantis
> and michahellis would have a black tail band; I also feel that the grey
> coverts are replacing feathers that also look more like 2nd-generation
> coverts.
> I would age this as 3rd-winter, and therefore not right for
> Yellow-legged.
>
Please allow me to disagree strongly with you here, Brian... A 3rd-winter
Yellow-legged Gull would at least show adult-like inner primaries (i.e.
bluish grey, with broad white tips), while they are clearly brownish in
this bird, and therefore typical of 2nd winter.
As for the tailfeathers: if you look at the spread tail, it is clear that
it must have been damaged somehow, resulting in an advanced replacement of
the central feathers. The outer tailfeathers are more representative of
what the tail looked like before it was damaged, and these do show a
sufficient amount of black.
Kind regards,
Peter
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 19 Feb 2005 11:56am
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp77.html
Regarding Martin's 1st-cycle Slaty-backed candidate above,
based on (obsessive) photo study, although this is getting pretty
close I'd personally again have to vote no confidence, at least
in the bird being a pure S-b. It could be a S-b intergrade, but at
the same time I'm not sure there's necessarily anything out of
range for an odd or impure smith:
- bill shape may not be out of range for S-b, but the long flat culmen
combined with apparently relatively steep culmen downcurve
and minimal gonydeal angle does not look typical, making the bill
appear uncomfortably thin, blunt, and Herring-like.
- tertial centers seem a bit "soft" and low-contrast, probably
not out of range but not what you hope for.
- judging by the relatively low level of wear and fading to the
primaries the upperparts also appear too soft and low contrast.
In S-b photos where the primaries are still this dark and
clean the bird will typically retain significantly higher contrast
to the upperparts patterning. In other words the apparent
level of dark pigment saturation in the upperparts seems
uncomfortably low compared to the primaries. This is a
typical feature of intergrade (or oddball) smith on the west coast.
- head/eye seem slightly large in proportion to the body, and
bird seems to lack pot-bellied appearance you hope for.
Overall structure is a bit too Herring-like for comfort.
- while the primary pattern is within range for S-b, the outer
primaries seem a bit lacking in the stark web contrast that many
S-b show that might help rule out a pigment-challenged Herring.
Anyway, just my usual perhaps overly-stingy thoughts. I wouldn't
want to discourage anyone from posting these 1C candidates,
since whether any of these birds are S-b or not each is (for me
at least) helping to highlight and/or refine ideas about different
possibly significant features.
Cheers,
Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 19 Feb 2005 4:30pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--Boundary_(ID_WBvRm28EPSd1+H4PapUpCA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Re http://www.martinreid.com/gullnews.html
Brian Small wrote:>I have refrained from commenting on Martin's putstve
atlantis Yellow-legged Gull, not for any reason other than it is hard to know
what to say. Personally, I am of the opinion that none of them necessarily
convinces me as atlantis.
Taking the first four at his site, I would say this:-
1. Feb 17. This a first-winter lacks any of the moult of wing coverts and
tertials that is relatively typical of the form atlantis. As it tends to settle
to breed in Jan or Feb, the young in Jan or Feb of the following year are
further advanced in moult or incredibly worn if unmoulted. This can often form
a strong contrast between (worn and bleached) old and new in the coverts.<
I am not sure I follow you here. I don't think any atlantis breeds in Jan. or
Febr. In the days of natural food only, Bannerman says that in the Azores
breeding commences in the first half of May just like Lesser Black-backs did in
Holland well into the 1980's in the days before rubbish-tip feasts. As far as
Martin's bird concerns I would go for LBBG.
>2. This is labelled as a 2nd basic (2nd-winter) on Feb 08, but has a wholly
white tail (or virtually so). This is wrong, as in their 2nd-winter atlantis
and michahellis would have a black tail band; I also feel that the grey coverts
are replacing feathers that also look more like 2nd-generation coverts. I would
age this as 3rd-winter, and therefore not right for Yellow-legged. Quite why
it has slightly darker grey mantle/scap feathers is more likely a result of
hybridity.<
Surely a 2nd winter and no apparant reason why this bird is not an atlantis.
>3. Feb 04. Possibly a 1-w atlantis, but again lacks the moult of coverts or
tertails, and the juvenile coverts do not appear worn enough. The ginger
quality of the scaps is an oft-quoted feature of YLG, but can also be matched by
marinus. I have expressed this to Martin before, and feel that the head shape
here may also point to a possibility of small female marinus here.<
In the days when knowledge about YLG's was scarce they were often confused
with L.marinus (unless New World marinus looks different from European ones)
when they had a white head. This bird is not a L.marinus. I will send Martin
some pictures of a dead 1st W marinus I took at the beginning of January.
>4. Again Feb 04, a 1-w that has all of the concerns I have expressed above.
the tertials are worn and the pale areas worn away look perhaps odd for YLG.
I have written about this before at
http://www.surfbirds.com/ID%20Articles/atlantisgulls.html
This is a brief over-view of the 'atlantis' on the Canary Islands, and since I
seen them on Madeira. It is somewhat superceded by KMO's gull book, but there
are some images of 1-w atlantis that show what I have said above.<
The problem with your surf bird pics is that they are undated and as the
pictures are very small that does not make them suitable for comparison.
Norman
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Subject: Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: Nicholas Block <sparrowhawk17(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 19 Feb 2005 5:04pm
Hello all,
In reference to Martin's possible Slaty-backed Gull, I don't think it could be
a pure smithsonianus. I have not seen even the palest smiths show such obvious
primary crescents, brownish primaries (rather than blackish), tertials so much
paler than primaries, and such pale and relatively unmarked greater coverts.
In general, the darkest parts of this bird are all clearly brownish, nothing
like the blackish on smiths. Also, and I have no idea how subjective this is,
the wings feel "short" compared to smith. I think these are all very excellent
marks for SBGU.
In all likelihood, I think this bird is a SBGU. It seems well within the range
of variation for that species, especially a female. If it is not a SBGU, then
I think the best alternative might be a HERGxGWGU hybrid. The bird kind of has
a "muddy" feel to the upperparts that could be the result of GWGU genes, but it
also appears to be the effect of wear. I would expect a paler primary pattern
on such a hybrid as well, especially paler P8-10. I might like to see darker
inner primary tips for a SBGU, though. What does the underside of the
primaries look like?
The deep pink legs are also excellent for SBGU. I don't think the bill is too
unusual for a female SBGU, and the same goes for the body size. Female SBGUs
often don't show the big belly characteristic of SBGU.
In any case, I'm not going to go out on a limb and say this is a SBGU for sure
b/c I don't have the experience; it could be a HERGxGWGU. But I will do it and
say it is not a pure smith. Have fun! :-)
As far as all the possible Yellow-legged Gulls go, I can't touch them b/c I
know next to nothing about them. However, I will say that something absolutely
irrefutable is going to be needed to accept those birds. Any word on DNA
testing yet? Are the marks being used truly outside the variation possible on
LBBG? That might be a stupid question, but I really don't know the answer and
would like to know. Thanks!
Good birding,
Nick Block
Bryan, TX
nlblock AT tamu.edu
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Subject: Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 19 Feb 2005 10:03pm
> In all likelihood, I think this bird is a SBGU. It seems well within the
range
> of variation for that species, especially a female. If it is not a SBGU,
then
> I think the best alternative might be a HERGxGWGU hybrid. The bird kind
of has
> a "muddy" feel to the upperparts that could be the result of GWGU genes,
but it
> also appears to be the effect of wear.
Structure aside, I wouldn't underrate this as a problem for S-b. They do
have browner primaries than herring, but they are usually still fairly high-
contrast birds that actually tend not to look muddy, even from wear
or fading. Check out these 1st-cycle April birds from the Japanese site,
all retaining darker, higher contrast patterning including the tertials than
the Texas gull, even though they are whiter-headed and presumably
more progressed in fading and wear than the Texas gull:
http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Sb1w010402/Sb1w01_4_2Sa.html
There are a few photos labeled S-b around where the bird does look
a little more muddy than these, but in all I have seen the primaries show
much less contrast with the upperparts than the Texas gull, suggesting
that those birds are either much more faded, or in some cases possibly
not pure S-b.
On the other hand the Texas gull's low contrast muddy brownish
upperparts combined with fairly dark primaries, pale primary fringes,
and sort of but not quite Thayer's-like primary pattern are all
typical of (assumed but too numerous to be likely to be anything
else) west coast smith/Glaucous-winged intergrades, and I would
agree that it is a great candidate for that mix. It seems to have
that "big muddy Thayer's" look :)
Cheers,
Phil
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