 |
|
|
|
|
ID-FRONTIERS for February 20-28, 2005
[ Prev Week
| Next Week
| Calendar Month
| ID-FRONTIERS Info
]
|
Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
|
| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| California Gull, Hybrid or something else? | The Holdens | Sun, 20 Feb 2005 | 12:23am |
| Re: yet more 'rare' gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | BrianJSmall(AT)AOL.COM | Sun, 20 Feb 2005 | 2:54am |
| Re: Santa Ana Nighthawk | Richard Hoyer | Sun, 20 Feb 2005 | 8:41am |
| Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | Nick Rossiter | Sun, 20 Feb 2005 | 5:11pm |
| Re: First-winter SBGU | Nicholas Block | Mon, 21 Feb 2005 | 8:23am |
| Trumpeter Swans in U.K. | Martin Garner | Mon, 21 Feb 2005 | 10:05am |
| Slaty-backed and Vega developments | Alvaro Jaramillo | Mon, 21 Feb 2005 | 11:11am |
| Re: First-winter SBGU | Phillip Pickering | Mon, 21 Feb 2005 | 11:20am |
| Re: Slaty-backed and Vega developments | Phillip Pickering | Mon, 21 Feb 2005 | 12:03pm |
| Re: Slaty-backed and Vega developments | Phillip Pickering | Mon, 21 Feb 2005 | 12:28pm |
| Re: Trumpeter Swans in U.K. | Peter Pyle | Tue, 22 Feb 2005 | 5:52pm |
| Re: yet more 'rare' gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | Martin Reid | Tue, 22 Feb 2005 | 6:56pm |
| A photo quiz | GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM | Tue, 22 Feb 2005 | 9:17pm |
| Re: yet more 'rare' gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | Kevin McGowan | Wed, 23 Feb 2005 | 7:02am |
| Re: yet more 'rare' gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas | Matt Sharp | Wed, 23 Feb 2005 | 8:31am |
| Kumlien's Gull? in California. | Alvaro Jaramillo | Wed, 23 Feb 2005 | 1:16pm |
| Re: Trumpeter Swans in U.K. | Martin Garner | Thu, 24 Feb 2005 | 7:46am |
| Trumpeter Swan in Hampshire | Russell Wynn | Thu, 24 Feb 2005 | 8:15am |
| Re: Slaty-backed and Vega developments | Jonathan Simms | Fri, 25 Feb 2005 | 4:55am |
| Giant Canada Goose | SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM | Fri, 25 Feb 2005 | 9:00am |
| Links to interesting large gulls in the Caribbean | Martin Reid | Fri, 25 Feb 2005 | 3:18pm |
| Re: Slaty-backed and Vega developments | Lethaby, Nick | Fri, 25 Feb 2005 | 4:22pm |
| Re: Slaty-backed and Vega developments | Lethaby, Nick | Fri, 25 Feb 2005 | 4:20pm |
| Eurasian Siskin? | birdbooker(AT)zipcon.ne | Fri, 25 Feb 2005 | 5:20pm |
| Eurasian Siskin? | birdbooker(AT)zipcon.ne | Fri, 25 Feb 2005 | 5:22pm |
| Re: Eurasian Siskin? | Lethaby, Nick | Fri, 25 Feb 2005 | 5:33pm |
| Eurasian Siskin? | birdbooker(AT)zipcon.ne | Fri, 25 Feb 2005 | 5:20pm |
| Re: Eurasian Siskin? | Joseph Morlan | Fri, 25 Feb 2005 | 9:54pm |
| Re: Eurasian Siskin? | Colin Bradshaw | Sat, 26 Feb 2005 | 4:18am |
| Eurasian Sisken | Ian Mclaren | Sat, 26 Feb 2005 | 5:58am |
| Glaucous-winged Gull in Newfoundland | Bruce Mactavish | Sat, 26 Feb 2005 | 8:22pm |
| Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in Newfoundland | Lethaby, Nick | Sat, 26 Feb 2005 | 9:37pm |
| RFI: foot color on imm. Red-footed Booby | Martin Reid | Sun, 27 Feb 2005 | 6:58pm |
| Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in Newfoundland | Phillip Pickering | Mon, 28 Feb 2005 | 12:14am |
| Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in Newfoundland | Phillip Pickering | Mon, 28 Feb 2005 | 8:51am |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: California Gull, Hybrid or something else?
From: The Holdens <holdens(AT)MOUNTAINCABLE.NET>
Date: 20 Feb 2005 12:23am
Hello everyone,
While out looking at Gulls today, I noticed this gull which at first glance
appeared to be a California Gull. In the field, it
had a slightly darker mantle than the nearby Herring Gulls (which I noticed with
my naked eye at first). Most features seemed to
fit, however a few seemed to be "wrong". The main feature that is bothering me
is the eye colour which was a dusky yellow colour and
not dark.
The photographs to this bird can be seen on my website: www.PeregrinePrints.com
And a direct link to the photos here:
http://www.peregrineprints.com/RBpage/posscali.htm
Due to my lack of experience with the species, I was wondering if features like
this are shown for some California Gulls, or if this
bird might be a hybrid or something different?
Thanks for your help, and Good Birding!
Brandon Holden
17
Hamilton, Ontario
www.PeregrinePrints.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: yet more 'rare' gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: BrianJSmall(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 20 Feb 2005 2:54am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
In a message dated 19/02/2005 17:11:35 GMT Standard Time,
peter.adriaens(AT)DUTCHBIRDING.NL writes:
Please allow me to disagree strongly with you here, Brian... A 3rd-winter
Yellow-legged Gull would at least show adult-like inner primaries (i.e.
bluish grey, with broad white tips), while they are clearly brownish in
this bird, and therefore typical of 2nd winter.
As for the tailfeathers: if you look at the spread tail, it is clear that
it must have been damaged somehow, resulting in an advanced replacement of
the central feathers. The outer tailfeathers are more representative of
what the tail looked like before it was damaged, and these do show a
sufficient amount of black.
Of course Peter is right and a 3rd w YLG would not show such inner primaries
(and I hang my head), but still find the tail feathers odd. There is
something about the tone of the mantle, with admixed brown feathers, and the
structure also which doesn't seem to match my experience.
Norman also points out that my bit on surfbirds is undated - this was put on
a seasonal thing after a couple of visits in late January/early Feb, so all
images are from that period. Note the plumage state of the 2nd-winter on the
second page, with whiter body, complete grey mantle/scaps.
Brian
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Santa Ana Nighthawk
From: Richard Hoyer <calliope(AT)THERIVER.COM>
Date: 20 Feb 2005 8:41am
Dear ID-Frontiers,
A nighthawk, identified as a Common, spent the winter of 2003-2004 on
this same branch at Santa Ana NWR. This is surely the same bird, making
it an ASY at this point.
Many thanks to Matt for looking so carefully at so many specimens. The
Sibley guide does mention that some Common Nighthawks have some buff
spotting on the primaries. And the depictions of Lesser Nighthawk show
much more obvious spotting than on the Santa Ana bird. Did any
specimens of Lesser show the same pattern as on the Santa Ana bird, or
were they all as heavily spotted as shown in the Sibley guide?
What about the black in the scapulars?
Reading Pyle more carefully, I think the state of the primary molt and
wear is not helpful in telling the species apart. Even adults can have
partial PB molts, retaining old ss and pp.
Good Birding,
Rich
---
Rich Hoyer
Tucson, AZ
Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
---
On Feb 18, 2005, at 4:58 PM, Matt Sharp wrote:
I think the confusing aspect of the TX bird is that it is molting and
that the
wing is very like a CONI in lacking spots on the primaries. I think
both these
can be accounted for if the bird is not an adult but rather in its 2nd
pre-basic
molt (so a TY at this time of year) and has retained the outermost juv
primary.
I would bet that it has halted molt altogether rather than still
growing that 9th
primary.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: Nick Rossiter <nrossiter(AT)SUPANET.COM>
Date: 20 Feb 2005 5:11pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Martin's series of shots is very interesting.=20
The 2nd winter bird on February 8th looks a good candidate for atlantis. =
The darkish mantle and the structure are fine for this form. I've been =
through some of my material and the closest I can find is for Portugal =
in late March/early April:
http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/porto%20estuary%20ylg%202s%20standin=
g.jpg
http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/porto%20estuary%20ylg%202s%20standin=
g.jpg=20
Some interpolation is needed to gauge how much the bird will mature in =
about 8 weeks. Azores birds seem to be even more retarded than the =
Iberian ones. YLGU from the Canaries and Morocco are relatively =
advanced.=20
The 1w on January 26th and February 4th look promising for atlantis in =
structure and plumage. It should be emphasised that atlantis never breed =
in January/February. In fact, based on moult, even the most southern =
forms of atlantis are only 1-2 weeks ahead of michahellis and the =
northern forms lag considerably behind. Being so far out of known range, =
maybe the 2w is the one to push initially.=20
The 1w on February 17th has a very long wing projection and a 'dirty' =
tail. This may well be LBBG as Norman says below.=20
The intriguing question to me is how many YLGU (or indeed other =
seabirds) follow the NE trade winds from NW Africa towards the =
Caribbean.=20
Cheers ... Nick
--- Original Message -----=20
From: Norman D.van Swelm=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] yet more "rare" gulls from Corpus Christi, =
Texas
Re http://www.martinreid.com/gullnews.html
Brian Small wrote:>I have refrained from commenting on Martin's =
putstve atlantis Yellow-legged Gull, not for any reason other than it is =
hard to know what to say. Personally, I am of the opinion that none of =
them necessarily convinces me as atlantis.
Taking the first four at his site, I would say this:-
1. Feb 17. This a first-winter lacks any of the moult of wing =
coverts and tertials that is relatively typical of the form atlantis. =
As it tends to settle to breed in Jan or Feb, the young in Jan or Feb of =
the following year are further advanced in moult or incredibly worn if =
unmoulted. This can often form a strong contrast between (worn and =
bleached) old and new in the coverts.<
I am not sure I follow you here. I don't think any atlantis breeds =
in Jan. or Febr. In the days of natural food only, Bannerman says that =
in the Azores breeding commences in the first half of May just like =
Lesser Black-backs did in Holland well into the 1980's in the days =
before rubbish-tip feasts. As far as Martin's bird concerns I would go =
for LBBG.
>2. This is labelled as a 2nd basic (2nd-winter) on Feb 08, but has =
a wholly white tail (or virtually so). This is wrong, as in their =
2nd-winter atlantis and michahellis would have a black tail band; I also =
feel that the grey coverts are replacing feathers that also look more =
like 2nd-generation coverts. I would age this as 3rd-winter, and =
therefore not right for Yellow-legged. Quite why it has slightly darker =
grey mantle/scap feathers is more likely a result of hybridity.<
Surely a 2nd winter and no apparant reason why this bird is not an =
atlantis.
>3. Feb 04. Possibly a 1-w atlantis, but again lacks the moult of =
coverts or tertails, and the juvenile coverts do not appear worn enough. =
The ginger quality of the scaps is an oft-quoted feature of YLG, but =
can also be matched by marinus. I have expressed this to Martin before, =
and feel that the head shape here may also point to a possibility of =
small female marinus here.<
In the days when knowledge about YLG's was scarce they were often =
confused with L.marinus (unless New World marinus looks different from =
European ones) when they had a white head. This bird is not a L.marinus. =
I will send Martin some pictures of a dead 1st W marinus I took at the =
beginning of January.
>4. Again Feb 04, a 1-w that has all of the concerns I have =
expressed above. the tertials are worn and the pale areas worn away =
look perhaps odd for YLG.
I have written about this before at
http://www.surfbirds.com/ID%20Articles/atlantisgulls.html
This is a brief over-view of the 'atlantis' on the Canary Islands, =
and since I seen them on Madeira. It is somewhat superceded by KMO's =
gull book, but there are some images of 1-w atlantis that show what I =
have said above.<
The problem with your surf bird pics is that they are undated and as =
the pictures are very small that does not make them suitable for =
comparison.
Norman
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: First-winter SBGU
From: Nicholas Block <sparrowhawk17(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 21 Feb 2005 8:23am
Hello again,
On average, SBGU definitely does have fairly high contrast tertials, but I
wouldn't say the lack of this mark denotes a non-SBGU or a hybrid. Looking at
some more pictures on the Japanese site, I found the following that resemble
Martin's Corpus Christi bird (http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp77.html):
http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/SlaG1w01113/Sla1w01113.html
Top right photo and the left individual in the bottom photo. And these are in
January... The individual in the bottom photo is quite similar to Martin's
bird, I think, and could easily look almost exactly like his a month later.
http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Slaty010226/Slaty010226.html
The second photo and the last photo - from a very similar timeframe as
Martin's.
http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Slab1w010210/Sla1w01_2_10.html
This is an exceptionally pale individual and the date is very close.
http://ujihala.ld.infoseek.co.jp/Sb011119/SbG011119.html
Top photo - a bird from November showing relatively pale/muddy tertials. By
Feb., I bet those would look quite similar to those on Martin's bird.
Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the choir about variation within SBGU (and any
species). I just think, given the field marks on Martin's bird (especially the
completely dark P9-10), the most likely identification is SBGU. Would I accept
it if I were on the records committee? No. Would I personally count it?
Maybe. ;-)
Happy gulling,
Nick Block
Bryan, TX
nlblock AT tamu.edu
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Trumpeter Swans in U.K.
From: Martin Garner <martin.go(AT)VIRGIN.NET>
Date: 21 Feb 2005 10:05am
Hi folks,
I went to see 2 Trumpeter Swans in Devon, England on Saturday 19th Feb out
of curiosity.They had been present for the previous few days. I have no
overly strong feelings either way on their status as wild/ escaped wildfowl,
I'm just exploring the avenues....
Of interest to me was that one of the birds clearly had at least some tail
feathers which were grey-brown coloured and not white (could not discern all
the tail feathers at the distance viewed ). The colour of these grey-brown
outer tail feathers was most easily seen as the bird upended to feed,
showing the underside of the feathers. I was initially concerned that I was
not seeing feathers that were simply soiled or stained. However on careful
inspection the bird clearly had the usual ferrous staining in the white
plumage, particularly on the 'water-line' of the body as well as elsewhere
in the plumage. The 'staining' colour was quite different to colour of the
tail feathers. The tail feathers appeared to be genuinely coloured,
contrasting with white under tail coverts. The upperside view of the tail
was harder to see as the birds were mostly in profile, but appeared
somewhat paler; a lighter (harder to discern) grey-brown compared to the
white plumage around. Thus a tail feather apparently obviously darker on the
underside than upperside.
My assumption is that these are first generation (juvenile) or (possibly)
second generation feathers which would indicate that this individual (and
perhaps both) are second winter birds. I am keen to learn whether Trumpeters
can have such immature feathers in their 2nd winter/ 2nd cycle or maybe I am
barking up the wrong tree! Can anyone with relevant experience of sub-adult
Trumpeter Swans at this time of year comment?
It was also interesting that there was no rose colour along the rim of the
lower mandible but perhaps this is a variable feature in Trumpeter Swans, it
would be interesting to know.
Thanks for any help
Martin Garner
p.s. I will try and load up pics to Surfbirds website to show this feature.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Slaty-backed and Vega developments
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 21 Feb 2005 11:11am
Hi there gull aficionados and larido-lurkers
Dan Singer re-discovered the second cycle Slaty-backed Gull in Half
Moon Bay, California yesterday. I was able to get out there and look at this
bird, this was the second observation of this individual and was last here 5
weeks ago. I am convinced it is the same bird, although its appearance has
changed somewhat. Those interested in the changes shown by this bird, and
how the new photos clarify that it is (as far as I know) a classic
Slaty-backed Gull can look at it again here:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/Slatyback.htm
Jump to the second cycle bird.
Minutes after the Slaty-backed Gull flew off, we picked up on an adult
Herring (smithsonianus) with a distinctly darker mantle. Further study in
the field and of the photos suggest that this was an adult Vega Gull. I
would appreciate any discussion of this bird. The adult, and the first cycle
birds from this year and last can be seen here:
http://www.birdsofchile.com/vega.htm
Thanks
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, CA
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 2/21/2005
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: First-winter SBGU
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 21 Feb 2005 11:20am
> On average, SBGU definitely does have fairly high contrast tertials, but I
> wouldn't say the lack of this mark denotes a non-SBGU or a hybrid.
Looking at
> some more pictures on the Japanese site, I found the following that
resemble
> Martin's Corpus Christi bird (http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp77.html):
>
> http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/SlaG1w01113/Sla1w01113.html
> Top right photo and the left individual in the bottom photo. And these
are in
> January... The individual in the bottom photo is quite similar to
Martin's
> bird, I think, and could easily look almost exactly like his a month
later.
Top right has higher level of dark pigment saturation in the upperparts
than Martin's bird, and in a month the primaries might be *white*.
Same for bottom bird to a lesser extent - although it seems muddier than
most S-b (assuming it isn't part Glaucous-winged ) it still has much
less contrast between primaries and tertials/mantle markings than
Martin's.
> http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Slaty010226/Slaty010226.html
> The second photo and the last photo - from a very similar timeframe as
> Martin's.
All of above have higher level of dark pigment saturation in upperpart
markings and less primary/tertial contrast than Martin's. On 2nd bird
both tertials and primaries are faded, so contrast level isn't really
that high.
> http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Slab1w010210/Sla1w01_2_10.html
> This is an exceptionally pale individual and the date is very close.
Respectfully, this bird just further illustrates my points about contrast
and looks nothing like Martin's.
> http://ujihala.ld.infoseek.co.jp/Sb011119/SbG011119.html
> Top photo - a bird from November showing relatively pale/muddy tertials.
By
> Feb., I bet those would look quite similar to those on Martin's bird.
Again, primaries are not as contrastingly dark as Martin's bird, and this
bird looks funky enough compared to others on the site to potentially
not be pure anyway.
Also all of the above S-b have different bill shapes than Martin's,
and if you look critically enough most/all have a different jizz -
combination of head/body shapes/proportions, posture, etc.
Cheers,
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Slaty-backed and Vega developments
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 21 Feb 2005 12:03pm
> http://www.birdsofchile.com/vega.htm
Interesting, but having studied Vega on the japanese site numerous
times I'm immediately uncomfortable with the relatively gentle culmen
downcurve here. I'll have to look again, but the bill shape combined
with the extreme density of hood markings makes me wonder if it
could be a smith with slight melanism affecting the eye as well as
plumage. Also makes me wonder about Slaty-backed x G-w.
Cheers,
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Slaty-backed and Vega developments
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 21 Feb 2005 12:28pm
> Interesting, but having studied Vega on the japanese site numerous
> times I'm immediately uncomfortable with the relatively gentle culmen
> downcurve here. I'll have to look again, but the bill shape combined
> with the extreme density of hood markings makes me wonder if it
> could be a smith with slight melanism affecting the eye as well as
> plumage. Also makes me wonder about Slaty-backed x G-w.
I guess the bill shape is minority but not really out of range. The
washed out bill base suggests that the bird might not quite be fully
mature, which would explain the hood density. Also I just noticed the
still growing P10 :) so I'll have to retract the above and say it's a
pretty solid candidate.
Cheers,
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Trumpeter Swans in U.K.
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle(AT)BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: 22 Feb 2005 5:52pm
Martin and all -
The description of this bird does indicate a TY (3CY or 2nd-winter)
Trumpeter Swan. First-year birds retain some of the juvenal body feathers,
most of the juvenal wing coverts, and all of the juvenal rectrices and
tertials during the preformative (post-juvenile) molt. During the second
prebasic molt (when a year old) most birds retain a few greater coverts,
rump feathers, and/or rectrices (up to 6) and can be aged by the fact that
these retained juvenal feathers are still grayish, although they become
quite bleached by the second spring. They also contrast with the
second-basic feathers in being narrower and more worn. The retained
rectrices are typically among r3-r5, which would explain why they were more
visible from below than from above (where the replaced white r1's
predominate). Other characters to look for on TYs at this time of year are
a slight pinkish tinge to the upper mandible and a slight olive tinge to
the legs, although many individuals will have obtained adult colors by this
time. The lack of red along the tomium could also be related to age. Hope
this helps.
Peter Pyle
At 04:51 PM 2/21/05 +0000, Martin Garner wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>I went to see 2 Trumpeter Swans in Devon, England on Saturday 19th Feb out
>of curiosity.They had been present for the previous few days. I have no
>overly strong feelings either way on their status as wild/ escaped wildfowl,
>I'm just exploring the avenues....
>
>Of interest to me was that one of the birds clearly had at least some tail
>feathers which were grey-brown coloured and not white (could not discern all
>the tail feathers at the distance viewed ). The colour of these grey-brown
>outer tail feathers was most easily seen as the bird upended to feed,
>showing the underside of the feathers. I was initially concerned that I was
>not seeing feathers that were simply soiled or stained. However on careful
>inspection the bird clearly had the usual ferrous staining in the white
>plumage, particularly on the 'water-line' of the body as well as elsewhere
>in the plumage. The 'staining' colour was quite different to colour of the
>tail feathers. The tail feathers appeared to be genuinely coloured,
>contrasting with white under tail coverts. The upperside view of the tail
>was harder to see as the birds were mostly in profile, but appeared
>somewhat paler; a lighter (harder to discern) grey-brown compared to the
>white plumage around. Thus a tail feather apparently obviously darker on the
>underside than upperside.
>
> My assumption is that these are first generation (juvenile) or (possibly)
>second generation feathers which would indicate that this individual (and
>perhaps both) are second winter birds. I am keen to learn whether Trumpeters
>can have such immature feathers in their 2nd winter/ 2nd cycle or maybe I am
>barking up the wrong tree! Can anyone with relevant experience of sub-adult
>Trumpeter Swans at this time of year comment?
>
>It was also interesting that there was no rose colour along the rim of the
>lower mandible but perhaps this is a variable feature in Trumpeter Swans, it
>would be interesting to know.
>
>Thanks for any help
>
>Martin Garner
>
>p.s. I will try and load up pics to Surfbirds website to show this feature.
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: yet more 'rare' gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 22 Feb 2005 6:56pm
Dear all,
I'd like to thank all those who have contributed to the discussion of the
Corpus gulls. I have a few follow-up comments:
The SBGU-type: I have received feedback from a very experienced birder in
the Korea/Japan Theater who stated a number of minor concerns, but did not
mention the tertials at all. I have asked others in that Theater to
comment back to me on those concerns, and will report anything significant
to ID-F. I feel it is not too difficult to find a number of examples at
the Ujiharas' terrific website
http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gullidentifi_.htm that are close enough to
the Corpus bird to consider that it falls within the normal variation of
first-winter SBGU - especially wen you take into account that the Texas
coast is probably a drier environment that the normal wintering grounds,
and thus stronger Sun-bleaching and wear may lead to a slightly different
appearance than most birds in Japan. Of course, this does not address the
counter-issue: can some form of New World hybrid look as similar? I have
almost no experience with such creatures, so I'd really value some photo
examples of birds from the West Coast that look like this - thanks!
The YLGU-type from Feb 17: I discovered that I have seen this bird before;
it is the "LBBG" labelled D) and E) on this page from Jan 20
http://www.martinreid.com/lbbgp46.html. So at that time I too considered
it a LBBG, but I recall that, on a day of numerous interesting LBBG-types
to look at, I did not spend a lot of time on this bird. looking at the
images here: http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp76.html I'll mention the
following:-
To me the structure looks far more YLGU-like than LBBG-like, especially the
long, thick legs, thick base to the bill, big, deep but high chest, and
short outer primaries (P10 barely any longer than P9, and the distance P8
to P10 is less than 2/3 the P7 to P8 length.) A brief brwose of my
database of YLGU pics turns up numerous birds (mich and atlantis) with a
similar structure.
I can't see any juvenile scapulars, so every single one appears to have
been replaced; this is typical of all YLGUs and at best seems rare in LBBG,
which usually retain a couple of the lower juv. scaps. Also note than a
number of recent gullers who've visited the Atlantis-type populations in NW
Iberia and the northern Atlantic Islands have remarked that a much higher
percentage of first-winter birds do not replace any juv. wing coverts prior
to Spring. Given that even in some michahellis populations the number of
birds that also do this can be as high as 50%, I'd say that the combination
of fully-replaced mantle/scaps with fully-retained coverts is quite the
norm for Atlantic YLGUs.
Last year while discussing a couple of other YLGU-types from the same
location, a couple of European gullers stated that one really good feature
to pick out a YLGU among LBBGs is that in flight from above, YLGU has the
mantle/scaps paler than the rest of the upperwing, while on LBBG it is
either the same tone or darker. So, how good a mark is this? the Feb 17
bird is clearly paler on the scaps than the wings.
Can anyone tell me if there is any difference in the relative darkness of
inner, forward-most lesser coverts? I get the impression the YLGUs tend to
be paler on these feathers, so that they blend into the central wing,
rather than being darker and thus extending the dark "wrap-around" from the
"wrist" as on LBBG - ?
I am concerned about the uppertail coverts and tail pattern as a pure
YLGU, as they are the most LBBG-like on any potential YLGU I've seen
here. I have so few usable images of Atlantic YLGUs clearly showing this
feature that I am cautious about how "wrong" these patterns are for
"northern" Atlantic populations. It does open the door to the possibility
that this might be a YGLUxLBBG hybrid. I believe that LBBG is by far the
most frequent partner for mixed pairs involving YLGUs, but I have no feel
for the size of this element in the population. It is possible that some
LBBGs and YLGUs are breeding somewhere in the Caribbean, and that there are
some mixed pairs involved.
I'd really appreciate more feedback, as this remains a most intriguing
situation, whatever the truth actually is.
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: A photo quiz
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 22 Feb 2005 9:17pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi ID Frontiers:
The Colorado Field Ornithologists runs a weekly photo quiz on its website
(_www.cfo-link.org_ (http://www.cfo-link.org) ) that is sometimes fairly easy
and sometimes a bit of a poser. I am currently the guest quizmeister and have
a picture up that taught me a thing or two about identifying the bird in
question. Though I am, undoubtedly, way behind the times in figuring out what
I
figured out, I thought that the picture would be of general interest to this
audience.
Though few of the regular participants of the quiz are members of this
forum, I would still appreciate holding off on any posts about the ID of the
bird
to ID Frontiers until after the quiz deadline.
Sincerely,
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: yet more 'rare' gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 23 Feb 2005 7:02am
At 08:04 PM 2/22/2005 -0600, Martin Reid wrote:
>...It does open the door to the possibility
>that this might be a YGLUxLBBG hybrid. I believe that LBBG is by far the
>most frequent partner for mixed pairs involving YLGUs, but I have no feel
>for the size of this element in the population. It is possible that some
>LBBGs and YLGUs are breeding somewhere in the Caribbean, and that there are
>some mixed pairs involved.
Perhaps a more likely scenario for a Texas bird would be a Lesser
Black-backed X American Herring Gull hybrid. Any guesses at to what that
would look like?
Kevin
*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: yet more 'rare' gulls from Corpus Christi,
Texas
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 23 Feb 2005 8:31am
Kevin McGowan asked.
>Perhaps a more likely scenario for a Texas bird would be a Lesser
>Black-backed X American Herring Gull hybrid. Any guesses at to
>what that would look like?
American perspective
probably the "real thing" but who knows.
http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/index8.html#Easton's%20'Mystery%20Gull'
more conjectural
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/longport1.htm
http://www.fordham.edu/lewis/birds/comhyb/herxles.html
European perspecitive
A comprehensive treatment
http://www.surfbirds.com/ID%20Articles/adriaensgulls1203.html
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/argr1.htm
http://members.aol.com/skokholm/gulls.htm (no pics but an interesting tidbit)
>especially wen you take into account that the Texas
>coast is probably a drier environment that the normal wintering grounds,
>and thus stronger Sun-bleaching and wear may lead to a slightly different
>appearance than most birds in Japan.
Using hypothetical climatic differences and their possible effects on a birds
appearance is probably just going to muddy the issue. It provides a very
nice explanation for inconsistent plumage features but is essentially
impossible
to substantiate even if plausible.
One of the things the several recent SBGU candidates has re-inforced
in me is that I do not have a complete grasp of variation in Am. Herring
Gull, such that is hard to accept that anything is outside of such an
unknown range of variation. Note that the birds here
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mlretter/album?.dir=b3c7&.src=ph
and here
http://www.peregrineprints.com/RBpage/slatybackedpossible.htm
show SBGU features but are still thought to be probably "just" Herring Gull.
I don't mean to downplay the usefulness of these discussions but it does I
think
need to be re-stated that without understanding the variation in Am. HEGU
(is it regional/environmental, does it reach a taxonomic level, is it all age
related,
who is the nearest relative?) it is still hard to rule that species out.
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
www.acnatsci.org/vireo
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Kumlien's Gull? in California.
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 23 Feb 2005 1:16pm
Birders
I had to go to the San Jose area yesterday and decided to devote some
time to studying Thayer's Gulls there. Thayer's are much more common in the
south end of San Francisco Bay than they are here on the coast. I hit Hidden
Lake, where you can find some of the tamest Thayer's Gulls I have ever seen.
But getting to the point, eventually I came across a second cycle bird which
appears to be a Kumlien's Gull. Now keep in mind its age, as in the second
cycle Thayer's tend to have black, or blackish-brown primaries. In the first
cycle some palest of Thayer's fade and wear to a nearly whitish-winged look,
but I do not think this is possible in a second cycle bird. As well
structural features of this individual were slightly different than the
group of Thayer's in the park: shorter bill, slightly shorter tibia, shorter
neck, pot-bellied look when flying.
Photos can be seen here:
http://www.birdsofchile.com/iceland.htm
Iceland Gull has had a controversial history in California; I think there
are only two accepted records, a juvenile and an adult with white wings. I
do not recall if a second cycle bird has ever been reported in the state. On
the other hand, it is likely that this form/taxon/hybrid/whatever is much
more common in California than currently thought.
Regards
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, CA
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
http://www.fieldguides.com/home.htm
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Trumpeter Swans in U.K.
From: Martin Garner <martin.go(AT)VIRGIN.NET>
Date: 24 Feb 2005 7:46am
Hi all,
Thanks for all who have so far commented on the aging and in some cases,
likely origin of these Trumpeter Swans. Wow especially to Peter Pyle, what a
lucid and revealing answer , thank you very much!
Just to clarify, some superb photos by Jim Lawrence show the bill details
very well (and when the bird's are clean and not muddied with feeding) and
there is no obvious red on the tomium (thanks Peter) as seems to be normally
present on adult Trumpeters. On one bird the area is just greyish-black. on
the other it is dull pinkish mottled with grey.
In regards to the vagrancy versus escape issue. Here are a few points
recently gleaned. Lee Evans wrote very helpfully on the Surfbird's list with
some details, also about a week ago.
Trumpeters are commonly kept in collections in the UK. Back in 1996 (I
think) a pair was even reported to have bred in Northamptonshire in the
'wild' as it were.
In regard to the vagrancy possibility there are seemingly 2 lines of
enquiry.
One is the extreme weather reported in central northern states and central
(southern Canada). this winter. Be interesting to know if any commentators
think this has affected Wildfowl movements significantly (esp. in regard to
Trumpeters)
The other is to look at some of the long-distance migrants
that presumably come out of the Alaskan population of Trumpeter Swans. By
this I mean those
individuals that make it to Japan and California. Particularly the present
day Japanese records (How many?). Birds which travel from (presumably)
Alaska to Japan travel as far as a bird would have to go to travel from
Alaska to the UK (roughly!). Even more likely perhaps is a mirror view of
Alaska to
Japan vagrants making a reverse migration from Alaska to New York/
Philadelphia etc I think the latter seems quite a likely occasional
scenario.
When Trumpeters Swans were abundant, as my limited reading shows, in the mid
19th Century, the range would have been similar to some regular UK vagrants
today, such as Lesser Scaup. I think it highly likely that Trumpeters could
have made it to the UK in the 19th century once in a while. That's in
addition to the 108,000 swan skins (mostly Trumpeters) sold in London as
trade from the Hudson Bay Co. between 1823 and 1880 (per Palmer).
And there is a British record from this period. (see Witherby's 'Handbook'
and the 'Birds of Suffolk'- thanks to Richard Millington for contents of
latter). A record of 5 birds at Aldeburgh, Suffolk on
Oct 26th 1866. 4 of the 5 were apparently shot having been seen flying
in-off the sea.One of the shot birds was at some stage on display in the
Ipswich Museum (still in existence?). The arrival date would seem a good
date for vagrants.
Arguably it is also a period of much dodgy behaviour too.
This record has never been submitted to BOURC?!
Thanks for any help and apologies to those who have no interest in this
thread!
Martin Garner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Pyle" <ppyle(AT)birdpop.org>
To: "Martin Garner" <martin.go(AT)VIRGIN.NET>; <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Trumpeter Swans in U.K.
> Martin and all -
>
> The description of this bird does indicate a TY (3CY or 2nd-winter)
> Trumpeter Swan. First-year birds retain some of the juvenal body feathers,
> most of the juvenal wing coverts, and all of the juvenal rectrices and
> tertials during the preformative (post-juvenile) molt. During the second
> prebasic molt (when a year old) most birds retain a few greater coverts,
> rump feathers, and/or rectrices (up to 6) and can be aged by the fact that
> these retained juvenal feathers are still grayish, although they become
> quite bleached by the second spring. They also contrast with the
> second-basic feathers in being narrower and more worn. The retained
> rectrices are typically among r3-r5, which would explain why they were
more
> visible from below than from above (where the replaced white r1's
> predominate). Other characters to look for on TYs at this time of year are
> a slight pinkish tinge to the upper mandible and a slight olive tinge to
> the legs, although many individuals will have obtained adult colors by
this
> time. The lack of red along the tomium could also be related to age. Hope
> this helps.
>
> Peter Pyle
>
>
>
> At 04:51 PM 2/21/05 +0000, Martin Garner wrote:
> >Hi folks,
> >
> >I went to see 2 Trumpeter Swans in Devon, England on Saturday 19th Feb
out
> >of curiosity.They had been present for the previous few days. I have no
> >overly strong feelings either way on their status as wild/ escaped
wildfowl,
> >I'm just exploring the avenues....
> >
> >Of interest to me was that one of the birds clearly had at least some
tail
> >feathers which were grey-brown coloured and not white (could not discern
all
> >the tail feathers at the distance viewed ). The colour of these
grey-brown
> >outer tail feathers was most easily seen as the bird upended to feed,
> >showing the underside of the feathers. I was initially concerned that I
was
> >not seeing feathers that were simply soiled or stained. However on
careful
> >inspection the bird clearly had the usual ferrous staining in the white
> >plumage, particularly on the 'water-line' of the body as well as
elsewhere
> >in the plumage. The 'staining' colour was quite different to colour of
the
> >tail feathers. The tail feathers appeared to be genuinely coloured,
> >contrasting with white under tail coverts. The upperside view of the tail
> >was harder to see as the birds were mostly in profile, but appeared
> >somewhat paler; a lighter (harder to discern) grey-brown compared to the
> >white plumage around. Thus a tail feather apparently obviously darker on
the
> >underside than upperside.
> >
> > My assumption is that these are first generation (juvenile) or
(possibly)
> >second generation feathers which would indicate that this individual
(and
> >perhaps both) are second winter birds. I am keen to learn whether
Trumpeters
> >can have such immature feathers in their 2nd winter/ 2nd cycle or maybe I
am
> >barking up the wrong tree! Can anyone with relevant experience of
sub-adult
> >Trumpeter Swans at this time of year comment?
> >
> >It was also interesting that there was no rose colour along the rim of
the
> >lower mandible but perhaps this is a variable feature in Trumpeter Swans,
it
> >would be interesting to know.
> >
> >Thanks for any help
> >
> >Martin Garner
> >
> >p.s. I will try and load up pics to Surfbirds website to show this
feature.
>
>
>
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Trumpeter Swan in Hampshire
From: Russell Wynn <rbw1(AT)SOC.SOTON.AC.UK>
Date: 24 Feb 2005 8:15am
Hello all
Here is some additional information that may add to the interesting
observations by Martin et al. relating to the Devon Trumpeter Swans.
On April 19th 2001 I discovered an adult Trumpeter Swan with Mute
Swans in the Test Valley, Hampshire. The bird had previously been
seen at Keyhaven Marshes, Hampshire on Feb 25th. It was noted as
being unringed, fully winged and wary/nervous. It was last seen on
April 29th. On the minus side it appeared to have a small growth on
the lower mandible. An excellent photo by Tony Blunden can be seen
at: http://www.surfbirds.com/mb/Features/trumpeter.html
At the time I think this bird was immediately dismissed as an escape.
A few days later I found a drake Falcated Duck at Keyhaven but
unfortunately that bird was ringed. Along with Foot & Mouth
restrictions it made for a frustrating spring!
Good Birding
Russell Wynn
--
Dr Russell B Wynn
Senior Research Scientist
Marine Geology and Ecology
Southampton Oceanography Centre
European Way
Southampton
SO14 3ZH
U.K.
E-mail: rbw1(AT)soc.soton.ac.uk
Tel: +44 (0)23 80596553 (office)
80596555 (secretary)
80595000 (switchboard)
http://www.soc.soton.ac.uk/CHD/staff_stu/Russel-Wynn/index.html
http://www.uk-taps.org
http://www.soc.soton.ac.uk/marine_wildlife/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Slaty-backed and Vega developments
From: Jonathan Simms <jaeger77(AT)T-ONLINE.DE>
Date: 25 Feb 2005 4:55am
Dear Alvaro and fellow Lariphiles,
I recently returned from a 3 week vacation to Vancouver Island, Canada where
I got the chance to immerse myself in gulls and other water birds
(figuratively, of course). On the subject of Vega and Vega-like Gulls, I saw
2 adult birds at Clover Point, Victoria BC (the extreme south tip of
Vancouver Island). I was unable to take photos, but I discussed the birds
with Guy Monty, one of the most experienced birders on Vancouver Island. To
summarize the conversation that I had with him, these birds could be any of
the following, but at the moment, nobody really knows which:
1) genuine Vega Gulls. Perhaps VEGU is a frequent vagrant or winter resident
on the western coast of North America.
2) Vega-like American Herring Gulls. Olsen and Larsson describe west coast
AHGUs as being quite Vega-like.
3) Some heretofore undocumented or obscure hybrid, possibly even AHGU x
WEGU.
Comments
------------
I am strongly inclined to discount point 3 since I did not detect any
indication of WEGU or GWGU genes in these 2 birds. In addition to AHGU-like
size, overall structure and shape, they had brown-flecked, yellow eyes,
minimal streaking/flecking on the head (limited to the nape and quite
sparse), mantle colouration comparable to MEGU and CALG, both of which were
in the immediate vicinity, and a vague string-of-pearls effect to the spread
primary tips, similar to, but not as distinct as what one would expect from
SBGU. The fact that there were 2 birds in the same flock struck me as a bit
odd (1 CALG, 20-40 MEGU, 1-3 WEGU, approx. 10 THGU and 100 or so mixed GWGU
and GWGUxWEGU hybrids).
I managed to see other AHGUs on this trip (but oddly, only about 10 in
total - it seems they are not particularly common in this area), all of
which strongly resembled birds I have seen in the Great Lakes region over
20+ years.
Point 2 is a rather disturbing to me and I am hoping that Olsen and Larsson
have (somehow) made a mistake.
Point 1 seems to be the most probable to me, but I wanted to solicit
feedback/discussion from the group:
Could it be that VEGU is prevalent every year (or most years) on the West
Coast of North America?
I know that several genuine SBGUs and several probable/genuine VEGUs have
been seen on the Pacific Coast so far this winter. I also know that I and
Martin Reid have documented VEGU-like birds in the interior of North America
within the last 5 years. Perhaps people are only now looking for them.
I look forward to an interesting discussion.
Kind regards,
Jonathan Simms
Moenchengladbach, Germany
Abreviations used:
VEGU = Vega Gull
AHGU = American Herring Gull
WEGU = Western Gull
MEGU = Mew Gull
CALG = California Gull
SBGU = Slaty-backed Gull
THGU = Thayer's Gull
GWGU = Glacous-winged Gull
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Giant Canada Goose
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 25 Feb 2005 9:00am
Greetings All
A goose hunting buddy of mine has shot several very large Canada Geese in WA
over the years. They've had different calls from moffitti, and many have had
"extra" white markings on the face, implying they might be maxima.
He's noted they all had pinkish lower mandibles when seen from beneath, and many
have had extra white on the chin, extending forward to the base of the lower
mandible, again when viewed from below.
Does anyone have any idea whether these are marks for maxima???
Thanks
Steven Mlodinow
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Links to interesting large gulls in the Caribbean
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 25 Feb 2005 3:18pm
Dear all,
Given the speculation about LBBGs and maybe YLGUs coming into the gulf via
the West Indies, some of you might like to look at these gulls; are there a
couple of YLGUs hidden in there?:
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttmysterygull.html
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttmysterygull_comments.html
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttkelpgull
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttmysterygulls2.html
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttlesserblack-backedgull1
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttlesserblack-backedgull3.html
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/ttlesserblack-backedgull4
http://www.geocities.com/floyd_hayes/abstractas4.html
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/bagulls1
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/bagulls2
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/balesserblack-backedgull
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Slaty-backed and Vega developments
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 25 Feb 2005 4:22pm
I don't understand the claim about W. coast smithsonianus being vegae
like. I wouldn't agree at all on this.
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Simms
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 3:55 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Slaty-backed and Vega developments
Dear Alvaro and fellow Lariphiles,
I recently returned from a 3 week vacation to Vancouver Island, Canada
where
I got the chance to immerse myself in gulls and other water birds
(figuratively, of course). On the subject of Vega and Vega-like Gulls, I
saw
2 adult birds at Clover Point, Victoria BC (the extreme south tip of
Vancouver Island). I was unable to take photos, but I discussed the
birds
with Guy Monty, one of the most experienced birders on Vancouver Island.
To
summarize the conversation that I had with him, these birds could be any
of
the following, but at the moment, nobody really knows which:
1) genuine Vega Gulls. Perhaps VEGU is a frequent vagrant or winter
resident
on the western coast of North America.
2) Vega-like American Herring Gulls. Olsen and Larsson describe west
coast
AHGUs as being quite Vega-like.
3) Some heretofore undocumented or obscure hybrid, possibly even AHGU x
WEGU.
Comments
------------
I am strongly inclined to discount point 3 since I did not detect any
indication of WEGU or GWGU genes in these 2 birds. In addition to
AHGU-like
size, overall structure and shape, they had brown-flecked, yellow eyes,
minimal streaking/flecking on the head (limited to the nape and quite
sparse), mantle colouration comparable to MEGU and CALG, both of which
were
in the immediate vicinity, and a vague string-of-pearls effect to the
spread
primary tips, similar to, but not as distinct as what one would expect
from
SBGU. The fact that there were 2 birds in the same flock struck me as a
bit
odd (1 CALG, 20-40 MEGU, 1-3 WEGU, approx. 10 THGU and 100 or so mixed
GWGU
and GWGUxWEGU hybrids).
I managed to see other AHGUs on this trip (but oddly, only about 10 in
total - it seems they are not particularly common in this area), all of
which strongly resembled birds I have seen in the Great Lakes region
over
20+ years.
Point 2 is a rather disturbing to me and I am hoping that Olsen and
Larsson
have (somehow) made a mistake.
Point 1 seems to be the most probable to me, but I wanted to solicit
feedback/discussion from the group:
Could it be that VEGU is prevalent every year (or most years) on the
West
Coast of North America?
I know that several genuine SBGUs and several probable/genuine VEGUs
have
been seen on the Pacific Coast so far this winter. I also know that I
and
Martin Reid have documented VEGU-like birds in the interior of North
America
within the last 5 years. Perhaps people are only now looking for them.
I look forward to an interesting discussion.
Kind regards,
Jonathan Simms
Moenchengladbach, Germany
Abreviations used:
VEGU = Vega Gull
AHGU = American Herring Gull
WEGU = Western Gull
MEGU = Mew Gull
CALG = California Gull
SBGU = Slaty-backed Gull
THGU = Thayer's Gull
GWGU = Glacous-winged Gull
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Slaty-backed and Vega developments
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 25 Feb 2005 4:20pm
I don't think Vega can be frequent vagrant in sense of Ruff or
Sharp-tailed Sandpiper. I looked for years through tens of thousands of
gulls and only ever saw one very convincing candidate. I do agree they
should occur. I'm really surprised that they're aren't a lot more
records.
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Simms
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 3:55 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Slaty-backed and Vega developments
Dear Alvaro and fellow Lariphiles,
I recently returned from a 3 week vacation to Vancouver Island, Canada
where
I got the chance to immerse myself in gulls and other water birds
(figuratively, of course). On the subject of Vega and Vega-like Gulls, I
saw
2 adult birds at Clover Point, Victoria BC (the extreme south tip of
Vancouver Island). I was unable to take photos, but I discussed the
birds
with Guy Monty, one of the most experienced birders on Vancouver Island.
To
summarize the conversation that I had with him, these birds could be any
of
the following, but at the moment, nobody really knows which:
1) genuine Vega Gulls. Perhaps VEGU is a frequent vagrant or winter
resident
on the western coast of North America.
2) Vega-like American Herring Gulls. Olsen and Larsson describe west
coast
AHGUs as being quite Vega-like.
3) Some heretofore undocumented or obscure hybrid, possibly even AHGU x
WEGU.
Comments
------------
I am strongly inclined to discount point 3 since I did not detect any
indication of WEGU or GWGU genes in these 2 birds. In addition to
AHGU-like
size, overall structure and shape, they had brown-flecked, yellow eyes,
minimal streaking/flecking on the head (limited to the nape and quite
sparse), mantle colouration comparable to MEGU and CALG, both of which
were
in the immediate vicinity, and a vague string-of-pearls effect to the
spread
primary tips, similar to, but not as distinct as what one would expect
from
SBGU. The fact that there were 2 birds in the same flock struck me as a
bit
odd (1 CALG, 20-40 MEGU, 1-3 WEGU, approx. 10 THGU and 100 or so mixed
GWGU
and GWGUxWEGU hybrids).
I managed to see other AHGUs on this trip (but oddly, only about 10 in
total - it seems they are not particularly common in this area), all of
which strongly resembled birds I have seen in the Great Lakes region
over
20+ years.
Point 2 is a rather disturbing to me and I am hoping that Olsen and
Larsson
have (somehow) made a mistake.
Point 1 seems to be the most probable to me, but I wanted to solicit
feedback/discussion from the group:
Could it be that VEGU is prevalent every year (or most years) on the
West
Coast of North America?
I know that several genuine SBGUs and several probable/genuine VEGUs
have
been seen on the Pacific Coast so far this winter. I also know that I
and
Martin Reid have documented VEGU-like birds in the interior of North
America
within the last 5 years. Perhaps people are only now looking for them.
I look forward to an interesting discussion.
Kind regards,
Jonathan Simms
Moenchengladbach, Germany
Abreviations used:
VEGU = Vega Gull
AHGU = American Herring Gull
WEGU = Western Gull
MEGU = Mew Gull
CALG = California Gull
SBGU = Slaty-backed Gull
THGU = Thayer's Gull
GWGU = Glacous-winged Gull
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Eurasian Siskin?
From: birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net
Date: 25 Feb 2005 5:20pm
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Eurasian Siskin?
From: birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net
Date: 25 Feb 2005 5:22pm
HI:
This was poster to tweeters listserver and the people want to know if this in a
Eurasian Siskin?
http://home.pacifier.com/~birder/siskin.html
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eurasian Siskin?
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 25 Feb 2005 5:33pm
I need to check an article I did a few years ago, but I see a couple of
things wrong. My recollection was that even dull E. Siskins had some
yellow in the supercilium and flanks. I think the yellow in the
wing-bars is supportive of Eurasian though.
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of
birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 8:22 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Eurasian Siskin?
HI:
This was poster to tweeters listserver and the people want to know if
this in a Eurasian Siskin?
http://home.pacifier.com/~birder/siskin.html
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Eurasian Siskin?
From: birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net
Date: 25 Feb 2005 5:20pm
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eurasian Siskin?
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 25 Feb 2005 9:54pm
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:22:23 -800, birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net wrote:
>HI:
> This was poster to tweeters listserver and the people want to know if this in
a Eurasian Siskin?
>
>http://home.pacifier.com/~birder/siskin.html
I think it's a male Pine Siskin. Female Eurasian Siskin has a distinct
yellow upper wing-bar, and whiter lower wing-bar (opposite of your bird).
Eurasian Siskin also has less yellow at the bases of the secondaries and
more prominent flank streaks than Pine Siskin. Again your bird fits Pine
Siskin.
See:
McLaren, I. A., J. Morlan, P. W. Smith, M. Gosselin, and S. F. Bailey.
1989. Eurasian Siskins in North America - distinguishing females from green
morph Pine Siskins. American Birds 43:1268-1274.
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan (at) ccsf.org
Birding Classes in SF start Feb.8 http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Eurasian Siskin?
From: Colin Bradshaw <drcolin.bradshaw(AT)BTINTERNET.COM>
Date: 26 Feb 2005 4:18am
No this doesn't look much like Eurasian Siskin at this time of year.
Juvenile Eurasian Siskins look like this but that plumage is pretty much
gone by August
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET
Sent: 26 February 2005 00:22
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Eurasian Siskin?
HI:
This was poster to tweeters listserver and the people want to know if this
in a Eurasian Siskin?
http://home.pacifier.com/~birder/siskin.html
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Eurasian Sisken
From: Ian Mclaren <iamclar(AT)DAL.CA>
Date: 26 Feb 2005 5:58am
I add my two cents worth in agreeement with Nick Lethaby and Joe Morlan's
diagnosis of the WA siskin as a Pine Siskin. Other marks to look for are
yellowish wash extending to the face on fem. Eurasian, and the
straight-edged culmen of Pine - more covex on Eurasian. Occasionbally
even more yellow-washed, greenish on fact, male Pine Siskins are seen.
Cheers, Ian
Ian A. McLaren
Biology Department
Dalhousie University
Halifax, NS B3H 4J1
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Glaucous-winged Gull in Newfoundland
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 26 Feb 2005 8:22pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
On February 24 I saw a what I thought was an adult or near adult (4th or
5th year) Glaucous-winged Gull at Quidi Vidi Lake, St. John's,
Newfoundland. Didn't have camera (lens in repair shop) or scope at the
time. The viewing lasted only 20 minutes. The alert was sounded
immediately but the bird was not refound that day. However, by noon on
February 25 it was relocated on Quidi Vidi Lake by Jared Clarke. It was
viewed for the next three hours by the local birders. And again today
(February 26) it was present on the ice at Quidi Vidi Lake for three
hours in the afternoon.
Many digiscope and DSLR photos were taken by Paul Linegar, Ken Knowles
and myself. Attached are a selection of six of those. A picture is
worth a thousand words. I will mention just a few things not well
exhibited in the photos. It was slightly larger than the average
Herring Gull. Upper parts colour very slightly darker than Herring Gull.
Orbital ring thin and red-pink. Eye very dark if not black, could not
see iris. Legs deep raspberry, richer pink than Herring Gull in good
light but could appear dull and similar to Herring Gull at a distance.
There were no signs of immaturity in the plumage, i.e. tail pure white
and primary coverts adult gray. The mirror on P10 crossed the feather,
just barely breaking out onto the leading edge. White tertial crescent a
little wider than all Herring Gulls.
Please see photographs on Stuart Tingley's web page. Speaking as
someone with limited field experience with west coast gulls, it seems
nearly perfect for a Glaucous-winged Gull. The smallish size, just a
little bigger than local Herring Gulls, still fits within the
measurements. Look forward to comments on the photographs.
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU001.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU002a.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU002b.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU003.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU004.jpg
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU005.jpg
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in Newfoundland
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 26 Feb 2005 9:37pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Looks pretty good to me. Nice find.
=20
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
=20
_____ =20
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bruce Mactavish
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 7:22 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Glaucous-winged Gull in Newfoundland
=20
On February 24 I saw a what I thought was an adult or near adult (4th or
5th year) Glaucous-winged Gull at Quidi Vidi Lake, St. John's,
Newfoundland. Didn't have camera (lens in repair shop) or scope at the
time. The viewing lasted only 20 minutes. The alert was sounded
immediately but the bird was not refound that day. However, by noon on
February 25 it was relocated on Quidi Vidi Lake by Jared Clarke. It was
viewed for the next three hours by the local birders. And again today
(February 26) it was present on the ice at Quidi Vidi Lake for three
hours in the afternoon.
=20
Many digiscope and DSLR photos were taken by Paul Linegar, Ken Knowles
and myself. Attached are a selection of six of those. A picture is
worth a thousand words. I will mention just a few things not well
exhibited in the photos. It was slightly larger than the average
Herring Gull. Upper parts colour very slightly darker than Herring Gull.
Orbital ring thin and red-pink. Eye very dark if not black, could not
see iris. Legs deep raspberry, richer pink than Herring Gull in good
light but could appear dull and similar to Herring Gull at a distance.
There were no signs of immaturity in the plumage, i.e. tail pure white
and primary coverts adult gray. The mirror on P10 crossed the feather,
just barely breaking out onto the leading edge. White tertial crescent a
little wider than all Herring Gulls.
=20
Please see photographs on Stuart Tingley's web page. Speaking as
someone with limited field experience with west coast gulls, it seems
nearly perfect for a Glaucous-winged Gull. The smallish size, just a
little bigger than local Herring Gulls, still fits within the
measurements. Look forward to comments on the photographs.
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU001.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU002a.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU002b.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU003.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU004.jpg
=20
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU005.jpg
=20
=20
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
=20
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: RFI: foot color on imm. Red-footed Booby
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 27 Feb 2005 6:58pm
Dear all,
A booby has just turned up on the central Texas coast. There were some
initial thoughts that it may be a Red-footed, but the pics show it to be a
Brown:
http://www.martinreid.com/brownbooby.html
I note that some ID references mention that juvenile RFBOs can have
yellowish feet at fledging, but all descriptions of "immatures" say that
they have brownish/pinkish/reddish feet. Can anyone tell me how long a
recently-fledged RFBO might retain a largely yellowish color to its feet?
Thanks,
Martin
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in Newfoundland
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 28 Feb 2005 12:14am
Very nice bird - hard to argue against it being part Glaucous-winged,
but..(don't hit me!) I still feel that there's a good chance there is some
Herring involved here. For one, the contrasting washed-out look to
the bill base seems more typical of Herring. Although G-w can
show a contrastingly paler base at certain ages/stages, I'm not used
to seeing the contrast quite this stark. On the other hand I see it in
Herring all the time. This may be an avg difference in how the bill
matures between the two, with G-w tending to mature more evenly
on avg(?). This isn't something I have that great a feel for yet, so
will be looking more at it as opportunity arises.
Also the boxy hind crown, while not out of range for G-w, isn't
typical and is much more at home on a Herring. And there is something
subtle about the forward eye placement that seems off for G-w and
also trending into Herring-like. Usually when you look head on at
a G-w as in http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU004.jpg you see
a more substantial amount of "bird" between the eyes. This suggests
that the forward part of the crown and forehead may be a bit flat
and Herring-like independant of posture - the actual skull structure
is probably much more Herring-like here than in the large majority
of G-w. Statistically I have to ask myself what the odds of a
vagrant pure G-w showing such a Herring-like head shape would
be.
Also in http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU004.jpg I'm not used
to seeing the dark on the outer web of P10 so obviously extending
into (breaking) the mirror. Perhaps I need to look more at this, but it at
least suggests the possibility to me that there may be some overlapping
of patterns going on. Also in this shot it looks like the definition and
contrast of the dark primary pattern could be borderline, although this
is certainly debatable (not to mention subject to monitor settings etc).
So.. while there might not be anything prohibitively outside the range
of appearance for G-w here, at the same time there are enough subtle
things about this gull to IMO suggest that at best it can only be safely
said to be "mostly" G-w possibly introgressed with Herring, and I'm not
even sure how safe an assumption that would be. There does seem to be
a developing pattern of G-w-like vagrants to the east/midwest apparently
*all* showing traits that suggest introgression with Herring, and perhaps
this bird fits that pattern.
Cheers,
Phil
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Glaucous-winged Gull in Newfoundland
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 28 Feb 2005 8:51am
Here's a page of Glaucous-winged specimen wings:
http://www.ups.edu/biology/museum/gullwings2.html
that might be helpful in comparing primary pattern with the
Newfoundland gull -
http://stubird.dreamhost.com/GWGU004.jpg
Note that the P10 mirror extends to fully meet the outer edge
on all of these birds, in general forming more of a white band
than a rounded mirror. Also (critically) note that none of the
above (pure) G-w show darker pigment extending accross
onto the inner webs of P8-9 so far inward from the tips as does
the Newfoundland gull. In other words the width and extent of
the darker pigment on those feathers seems extreme for pure
G-w.
Cheers,
Phil
|
|
|
|
BIRDxxxx
BIRDCHAT
ID-FRONTIERS
US:NewEngland