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ID-FRONTIERS for April 1-9, 2005
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| cross dressing Mallard | Ian Paulsen | Fri, 1 Apr 2005 | 12:12pm |
| Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type, but this noe looks
a bit different... | Martin Reid | Sat, 2 Apr 2005 | 8:24pm |
| Re: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type, but this noe
looks a bit different... | Norman D.van Swelm | Sun, 3 Apr 2005 | 3:27am |
| Strange Teal | Richard Carlson | Sun, 3 Apr 2005 | 6:53pm |
| Re: Strange Teal | SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM | Sun, 3 Apr 2005 | 7:20pm |
| RFI: GWFG x Canada Goose hybrid photos | SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM | Sun, 3 Apr 2005 | 10:19pm |
| Re: Strange Teal | Colin Bradshaw | Mon, 4 Apr 2005 | 1:13am |
| Re: Strange Teal | David Sibley | Mon, 4 Apr 2005 | 6:56am |
| Re: Strange Teal | Richard Carlson | Mon, 4 Apr 2005 | 9:04am |
| Re: Strange Teal | Alan Wormington | Mon, 4 Apr 2005 | 9:56am |
| Re: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type,but this noe
looks a bit different... | Keith Arnold | Mon, 4 Apr 2005 | 9:59am |
| Re: Strange Teal | Richard Carlson | Mon, 4 Apr 2005 | 10:38am |
| Re: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type,but this noe
looks a bit different... | Norman D.van Swelm | Mon, 4 Apr 2005 | 3:43pm |
| Curious Sapsucker in Ohio | Alan Wormington | Mon, 4 Apr 2005 | 8:26pm |
| Re: Curious Sapsucker in Ohio | GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM | Mon, 4 Apr 2005 | 8:51pm |
| CBRC book | birdbooker(AT)zipcon.ne | Tue, 5 Apr 2005 | 2:56pm |
| Re: RFI: tail-spreading | Jason Rogers | Tue, 5 Apr 2005 | 3:38pm |
| Re: CBRC book | Luke Cole | Tue, 5 Apr 2005 | 10:04pm |
| Re: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type,but this noe
looks a bit different... | Dick Newell | Wed, 6 Apr 2005 | 12:32am |
| Re: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type,but this noe
looks a bit different... | Phillip Pickering | Wed, 6 Apr 2005 | 8:36am |
| King vs. Clapper Rail | birdbooker(AT)zipcon.ne | Thu, 7 Apr 2005 | 4:14pm |
| more pics of the possible Atlantic YLGU in TX,
plus lots of 'em from the Azores! | Martin Reid | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 4:16am |
| white-cheeked geese | sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 8:05am |
| Re: King vs. Clapper Rail | John Idzikowski | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 8:30am |
| Re: more pics of the possible Atlantic YLGU in
TX, plus lots of 'em from the Azores! | Phillip Pickering | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 9:02am |
| Re: King vs. Clapper Rail | John Idzikowski | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 10:19am |
| Re: King vs. Clapper Rail | Hugh McGuinness | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 11:31am |
| Re: King vs. Clapper Rail | Steve Sosensky | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 11:46am |
| Re: King vs. Clapper Rail | Harry LeGrand | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 12:22pm |
| Re: King vs. Clapper Rail | Noel Wamer | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 12:25pm |
| Re: King vs. Clapper Rail | Noel Wamer | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 1:57pm |
| Re: King vs. Clapper Rail | Bryan Pfeiffer | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 2:46pm |
| Re: King vs. Clapper Rail | Ross Silcock | Fri, 8 Apr 2005 | 4:46pm |
| Re: more pics of the possible Atlantic YLGU in
TX, plus lots of 'em from the Azores! | Martin Reid | Sat, 9 Apr 2005 | 6:22am |
| Re: more pics of the possible Atlantic YLGU in
TX, plus lots of 'em from the Azores! | Phillip Pickering | Sat, 9 Apr 2005 | 10:16pm |
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Subject: cross dressing Mallard
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 1 Apr 2005 12:12pm
HI:
A birder here on Bainbridge Island, WA sent me a photo of a Mallard that
looks like it is cross dressing with traits of both male and female. The
birder assumes it is a hermaphrodite and unable to
reproduce? I can e-mail the picture to you if interested?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
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Subject: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type, but this noe looks
a bit different...
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 2 Apr 2005 8:24pm
Dear All,
Well, here's another intriguing gull from Texas:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp86.html
- and as usual, I'd appreciate any feedback suggesting just what the heck
it is!
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
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Subject: Re: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type, but this noe
looks a bit different...
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 3 Apr 2005 3:27am
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> Well, here's another intriguing gull from Texas:
> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp86.html
> - and as usual, I'd appreciate any feedback suggesting just what the heck
> it is!
I'd say Atlantic Gulls Larus atlantis atlantis is the only option Martin.
Cheers, Norman
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Subject: Strange Teal
From: Richard Carlson <rccarl(AT)PACBELL.NET>
Date: 3 Apr 2005 6:53pm
I found a strange Green-winged Teal at St. David in AZ. Hybrid with
Eurasian Teal or just a mutant???
The picture is at
http://www.sabo.org/photoalb/tealx.htm
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Subject: Re: Strange Teal
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 3 Apr 2005 7:20pm
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Greetings
Common Teal and Common x GW Teal are birds we get a fair bit of experience
with in the Pacific Northwest.
First of all, I've been scrutinizing our local teal recently, trying my
d----dest to find a "pure" Common without success.
I've looked through several thousand male GW Teal and not seen one lacking
both horizontal and vertical bars, though I've found 4 with both-- presumed
hybrids. They also tended to have more Common Teal than GW Teal-like head
patterns. When birds are molting in fall/early winter, I do see birds without
either
bar. I've also never seen a bird with a buffy or cinnamon vertical bar.
So this bird is quite odd.
The face pattern looks relatively bold, but that could be a function of
photographic artifact or just how big the image is. Did the bird's face pattern
seem unusually bold in the field?
Secondly, the sides of the bill look bluish. I suspect that is reflected
light, but if that's real, then this bird is a GW x something-other-than-a
Common
Teal hybrid.
Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
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Subject: RFI: GWFG x Canada Goose hybrid photos
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 3 Apr 2005 10:19pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings All
Could someone direct me to photos of presumed Greater WF Goose x Canada (or
Cackling) Goose hybrids.
Thanks
Steven Mlodinow
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Subject: Re: Strange Teal
From: Colin Bradshaw <drcolin.bradshaw(AT)BTINTERNET.COM>
Date: 4 Apr 2005 1:13am
It's hard to say from this photograph but the extent of the green on the
side, plus the chestnut flank bar makes me wonder whether this is a American
Wigeon x GWT
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Carlson
Sent: 04 April 2005 02:44
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Strange Teal
I found a strange Green-winged Teal at St. David in AZ. Hybrid with
Eurasian Teal or just a mutant???
The picture is at
http://www.sabo.org/photoalb/tealx.htm
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Subject: Re: Strange Teal
From: David Sibley <david_sibley(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 4 Apr 2005 6:56am
I agree with Colin that a Green-winged Teal x American Wigeon hybrid is the
best fit. Things wrong for Teal can all be accounted for with an American
Wigeon parent:
- rusty side bar
- apparently pale face
- apparently bluish bill with black base and culmen ridge
- black tertials with contrasting white edges
- lack of black bar on undertail coverts behind gray flanks
It would be nice to see other photos to be sure that all of these features
actually exist (and a size comparison and spread wing would be very
helpful), but that's my guess based on this one photo.
Gillham and Gillham's 1996 book "Hybrid Ducks" mentions no records of this
cross. They do have records of Common Teal x Eurasian Wigeon.
David Sibley
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Colin Bradshaw
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 4:11 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Teal
It's hard to say from this photograph but the extent of the green on the
side, plus the chestnut flank bar makes me wonder whether this is a American
Wigeon x GWT
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Carlson
Sent: 04 April 2005 02:44
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Strange Teal
I found a strange Green-winged Teal at St. David in AZ. Hybrid with
Eurasian Teal or just a mutant???
The picture is at
http://www.sabo.org/photoalb/tealx.htm
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Subject: Re: Strange Teal
From: Richard Carlson <rccarl(AT)PACBELL.NET>
Date: 4 Apr 2005 9:04am
David etal:
The Wigeon cross theory sounds good. The blue bill was real, and the bird
looked large. I have several other pictures, can I post them here???
Dick
Richard C. Carlson
Tahoe City, CA, and Tucson, AZ
Full time Birder, Biker and Rotarian
Part-time Economist
Palo Alto: 650-949-9590
Tahoe: 530-581-0624
Tucson: 520-760-4935
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Subject: Re: Strange Teal
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 4 Apr 2005 9:56am
Everyone,
David Sibley states that Gillham and Gillham's 1996 book "Hybrid Ducks"
does not mention any record of Green-winged Teal X American Wigeon.
Just for the record, I observed at Green-winged Teal X American Wigeon
here at Point Pelee (Hillman Marsh) on April 4-14, 1991.
Here is the description that I recorded . . .
Intermediate in pattern and size. Yellow rear missing (as in
Green-winged), replaced with black (matching wigeon). Body (sides)
entirely rich gray and unmarked; small white sliver separating black
patch and gray sides. Chest crescent very faint and buff in colour (not
white as in teal). Chest drab pinkish-brown, more extensive than typical
teal and lacking dark spots. Bill intermediate in size; upper (central)
portion bluish-gray (as in wigeon). Face entirely rusty with green patch
(essentially Green-winged), except rustiness not as solid in colour
(paler); green patch apparently with greater outline of whitish
feathering. Black line where body meets sides (on Green-winged) is
missing; belly white.
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
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Subject: Re: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type,but this noe
looks a bit different...
From: Keith Arnold <kaarnold(AT)TAMU.EDU>
Date: 4 Apr 2005 9:59am
This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to
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Norman,
To educate us, why is this the only option?
Keith Arnold
WFSC TAMU
College Station
>>> "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl> 4/3/2005 5:27:38 AM
>>>
> Well, here's another intriguing gull from Texas:
> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp86.html
> - and as usual, I'd appreciate any feedback suggesting just what the
heck
> it is!
I'd say Atlantic Gulls Larus atlantis atlantis is the only option
Martin.
Cheers, Norman
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Subject: Re: Strange Teal
From: Richard Carlson <rccarl(AT)PACBELL.NET>
Date: 4 Apr 2005 10:38am
Kent Nichols kindly posted both pictures of what appears to be a
Green-winged Teal X Wigeon. I was focussed so much on the front of the
bird, hoping for a Eurasian Teal, that I forgot to notice the strange rear
end.
The pictures are at http://www.greenbackedheron.com/id.cfm?setid=1358
Richard C. Carlson
Tahoe City, CA, and Tucson, AZ
Full time Birder, Biker and Rotarian
Part-time Economist
Palo Alto: 650-949-9590
Tahoe: 530-581-0624
Tucson: 520-760-4935
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Subject: Re: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type,but this noe
looks a bit different...
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 4 Apr 2005 3:43pm
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Well Keith let me try and step on slippery ice. I feel that only two gulls
qualify: Lesser Black-backed and Atlantic Gull. It seems to me that the newest
mantle feathers are a shade grey that is just right for atlantis as are the
pattern of the greater coverts, the tertials as well as the pattern of the tail.
I know it's subjective but there it is. I can send a picture of a 1st winter
Lesser Black-back for comparison if you like.
Norman
>To educate us, why is this the only option?<
Keith Arnold
WFSC TAMU
College Station
>>> "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl> 4/3/2005 5:27:38 AM >>>
> Well, here's another intriguing gull from Texas:
> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp86.html
> - and as usual, I'd appreciate any feedback suggesting just what the heck
> it is!
I'd say Atlantic Gulls Larus atlantis atlantis is the only option Martin.
Cheers, Norman
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Subject: Curious Sapsucker in Ohio
From: Alan Wormington <wormington(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 4 Apr 2005 8:26pm
Everyone,
Vic Fazio has asked me to post the following message on his behalf,
pertaining to an apparent RED-NAPED SAPSUCKER in Ohio.
Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario
**************************
Here is the link to several excellent photographs of this sapsucker:
http://www.ohiobirds.org/news.php?News_ID=184
This male sapsucker exhibits a red nape and thin black line separating a
red throat from the white cheek (altogether missing on the left side of
the face). While insufficient for ID as a Red-naped Sapsucker, I was
wondering whether this was sufficient to suggest possible hybridization
between Yellow-bellied and Red-
naped, especially as the facial plumage is asymmetrical in general.
Others, having seen the bird, have put forth an argument for Red-naped
Sapsucker but I do not see the full suite of characters I think such an
ID requires.
cheers
Vic Fazio
e-mail: dromaius(AT)mail.bright.net
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Subject: Re: Curious Sapsucker in Ohio
From: GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 4 Apr 2005 8:51pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
In a message dated 4/4/2005 8:26:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
wormington(AT)JUNO.COM writes:
http://www.ohiobirds.org/news.php?News_ID=184
The white on the back in two distinct vertical rows fits a classic Red-naped
Sapsucker. The amount of red on the throat, and black on the upper breast
seems to be extensive as it would be on Red-naped, although from these photos
this is hard to judge. The main drawbacks to this being a Red-naped are the
right side of the head showing black between the red and white, and as
mentioned, the asymmetry of the pattern on the head. The red nape patch also
is
not extended as far laterally as on a typical Red-naped. I think these
characteristics are probably within the normal range of variation for this
species.
In my opinion, if this bird was seen in Rockies, it would be considered a
Red-naped. If it is a hybrid, I think that it is mostly Red-naped, possibly a
back cross of (Red-naped x Yellow-bellied) x pure Red-naped.
Saps are fun, and now you have read the opinion of another sap :-) !
Gary W. Potter
Sanger, Fresno Co., CA
GWPOTT(AT)aol.com
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Subject: CBRC book
From: birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net
Date: 5 Apr 2005 2:56pm
HI:
Last year I wondered about a book to be published by the CA Bird records
committee that was to summarize the records they voted on. Has anyone heard what
its status is?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!
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Subject: Re: RFI: tail-spreading
From: Jason Rogers <hawkowl(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 5 Apr 2005 3:38pm
Thanks for your response Kevin. I should have phrased my question a little
better. I was wondering if anyone knew whether the musculature of a bird's
tail would allow for rectrices to be displayed nonsequentially.
Regards,
Jason Rogers
Banff, AB
hawkowl(AT)hotmail.com
Sure, this sort of thing happens all the time. One feather gets out of
place and stuck under another. The bird usually preens it back into place
fairly quickly (it must feel weird), but if it's busy doing something else
it could take a while. And I wouldn't expect to have symmetrical
displacement.
Kevin
At 11:11 PM 3/19/2005 +0000, Jason Rogers wrote:
>I've always assumed that as a bird (say, for example, a sparrow) spreads
>its tail, rectrices become visible in sequence when the tail is viewed from
>above. That is, rectrices 1 and 2 are always visible. Then as the tail is
>spread, R3, R4, R5, and R6 come in to view in that order.
>
>However I got to wondering if it would be possible for, say, R1, R2, and
>R4-R6 to be visible, while R3 is "stacked" underneath R2 and out-of-view.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Regards,
>Jason Rogers
>Banff, AB
>hawkowl AT hotmail.com
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Subject: Re: CBRC book
From: Luke Cole <luke(AT)IGC.ORG>
Date: 5 Apr 2005 10:04pm
The book is undergoing review by an outstanding panel of outside experts,
their feedback is being integrated, and the manuscript is being buffed up by
its editors. Publication is anticipated later this year, but I think I said
that last year about this time, too! It will truly be an exceptional
publication when it is done.
Luke
Luke Cole
San Francisco
----- Original Message -----
From: <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 2:56 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] CBRC book
> HI:
> Last year I wondered about a book to be published by the CA Bird records
committee that was to summarize the records they voted on. Has anyone heard
what its status is?
> --
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA USA
> A.K.A.:Birdbooker
> Rallidae all the way!
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
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>
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>
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Subject: Re: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type,but this noe
looks a bit different...
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 6 Apr 2005 12:32am
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
re: http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp86.html
Well Norman =AD in a Lesser Black-backed Gull of this age, it is not unusual
for the newest mantle feathers to appear paler than those of an adult. Also
the upperside of the tail of this bird is more typical of LBBG than of YLG =
.
Having said this, I don=B9t think LBBG can have a pale window on the inner
primaries to match this bird, neither can LBBG give an overall pale
impression of the back in contrast to the wings.
So I agree with your conclusion, the most likely fit is atlantis. However,
as you say, the ice is slippery and probably thin too!
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK
On 4/4/05 11:38 pm, "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL> wrote:
>> Well Keith let me try and step on slippery ice. I feel that only two gul=
ls
>> qualify: Lesser Black-backed and Atlantic Gull. It seems to me that the
>> newest mantle feathers are a shade grey that is just right for atlantis =
as
>> are the pattern of the greater coverts, the tertials as well as the patt=
ern
>> of the tail. I know it's subjective but there it is. I can send a pictur=
e of
>> a 1st winter Lesser Black-back for comparison if you like.
>> Norman
>> =20
>>> >To educate us, why is this the only option?<
>> Keith Arnold
>> WFSC TAMU
>> College Station
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Subject: Re: Another gull: LBBG/YLGU type,but this noe
looks a bit different...
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 6 Apr 2005 8:36am
>So I agree with your conclusion, the most likely fit is atlantis. However,
>as you say, the ice is slippery and probably thin too!
Perhaps it could be a LBBG showing limited introgression with
Herring (ssp?). At least the long thin pale interiors on the outer
webs of P1-P4 suggest that possibility to me.
Cheers,
Phil
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Subject: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net
Date: 7 Apr 2005 4:14pm
HI:
I got via e-mail two pictures of a large rail that could be a knig or clapper
(or a hybrid between the two). I was wondering if someone here can figure out
what species the bird is?
sincerely
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!
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Subject: more pics of the possible Atlantic YLGU in TX,
plus lots of 'em from the Azores!
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 4:16am
Dear all,
Firstly, thanks to Norman and Dick for their public comments on the latest
odd gull from TX.
Yesterday I got more photos of the rather different-looking YLGU-like 1B gull:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp86b.html
And thanks once more to Peter Alfrey, I can display yet more Azorean-type
YLGUs:
http://www.martinreid.com/atlap09.html
As always, I'd appreciate more feedback!
Cheers,
Martin
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
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Subject: white-cheeked geese
From: sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 8 Apr 2005 8:05am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings All
I spent much of last weekend being a true bird nerd, and looked at
tens-of-thousands of white-cheeked geese in the Willamette Valley and adjacent
Clark Co, Washington.
95+ % of these were minima.
I learned several different things. Firstly, the more I looked, the less certain
I became. Much like looking at gulls.
1) white-neck collars on minima. Complete neck collars in minima are not rare,
at least not when looking at large numbers. I didn't actually count, but I'd
place such birds in the 1-3 percent range. Interestingly, these birds tended to
towards the darker breasted end of minima present. A couple birds (3-4) had
white that extended well up the anterior neck, almost reaching the cheek patch.
There was no reason to think any of these were Aleutians, as they were the same
size and breast color as the surrounding minima.
2) at this time of year, breast color in minima was highly variable. Purplish
tones were absent. Instead, many had bronzy or coppery colored breasts. In birds
at the paler end of the spectrum, this was merely a rusty wash across the
chest. Such birds were scarce, but still around 1-5 %.
3) lone birds do sometimes present a challenge in separating minima from
taverneri.
4) I saw 1000-1500 taverneri/parvipes. Pale breasted birds all (except one
possible Richardson's) all fell into the long-billed Canada-goose head profile,
thus fitting parvipes. These were about half of the 1000 or so mid-size
white-cheeked geese seen.
5) most of the darker breasted birds had head shapes in between parvipes and
minima, thus fitting my idea of taverneri and fitting B Deuel's article in W.
Birds.
6) We had one very peculiar flock of 100 or so mid-sized birds. These were 90%
dark breasted, yet there head profiles fit parvipes. I have little idea of what
to make of these. Bruce Deuel tells me that there is a population of parvipes
that is darker breasted than the rest, but the photos I've seen of such were not
as dark as most of these birds. Maybe that's because they were shot in
sunlight, and we were looking at birds in a steady drizzle. There were a couple
of pale-breasted birds that fit the parvipes profile nicely, and they were of
the same size as these darker birds. Interestingly, among this flock was a Blue
Goose x taverneri/parvipes.
Most of this is simply observational, without a lot of answers. None-the-less, I
thought it might be of intererst to the group.
Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
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Subject: Re: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 8:30am
I've posted the rail shots for Ian- please respond to him or the group.
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/rail1
http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/rail2
________
Original message-
Subject: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: birdbooker(AT)zipcon.net
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:15:05 -700
HI:
I got via e-mail two pictures of a large rail that could be a king or
clapper
(or a hybrid between the two). I was wondering if someone here can figure
out
what species the bird is?
sincerely
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
A.K.A.:Birdbooker
Rallidae all the way!
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Subject: Re: more pics of the possible Atlantic YLGU in
TX, plus lots of 'em from the Azores!
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 9:02am
> Yesterday I got more photos of the rather different-looking YLGU-like 1B
gull:
> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp86b.html
I assume there is significant overlap in size/structure, but I think this
bird is
at least more on the LBBG end of things - the head is proportionately
small compared to the body/bill and the eye is proportionately quite large.
The large majority of the atlantis on Martin's site don't seem to look
quite so LBBG-like in these aspects - on avg they look more herring-like.
Also for whatever it's worth for comparison, there are two flight series
of similar-looking 1C birds categorized as LBBG on Martin's site that
also show the pale interior areas on the outer webs of the inner primaries:
http://www.martinreid.com/lbbgp03.html
http://www.martinreid.com/lbbgp04.html
Cheers,
Phil
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Subject: Re: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 10:19am
Resend of rail urls- this time with file extensions-
http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/rail1.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/rail2.jpg
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
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Subject: Re: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: Hugh McGuinness <hmcguinness(AT)ROSS.ORG>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 11:31am
Bryan Pfeiffer, who took these photos, sent them to me earlier in the
week and I had thought that if we saw that bird on Long Island we might
suggest that it is a "Cling" Rail. Now I realize that these photos were
taken in a fresh water marsh in north-central Florida, which would seem
to rule out Clapper Rail, but there a number of features that just don't
look right for King Rail. First, the bird is not a bright rusty color
underneath; second the feather edgings on the back look gray (perhaps
slightly brownish gray); third there is a big gray face patch. Also the
bill is not particularly bright. Clapper rails up north are considerably
duller than this bird, but my memory of King Rail (I haven't seen one in
a long time) is that they are brighter than this bird. So here's the
question I have for people who see them regularly down south: is this a
typical plumage for King Rail?
hugh
Hugh McGuinness
The Ross School
18 Goodfriend Drive
East Hampton, NY 11963
hmcguinness(AT)ross.org
631-907-4229 (no messages please)
631-697-2099 (cell)
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Idzikowski
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 1:19 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] King vs. Clapper Rail
Resend of rail urls- this time with file extensions-
http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/rail1.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/rail2.jpg
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
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Subject: Re: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: Steve Sosensky <Steve(AT)SOSENSKY.COM>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 11:46am
In addition to the field marks mentioned by Hugh, the bright white lores
and supercillium, the smudgy/streaky breast and foreneck, and the lack of
organized streaking on the back make this look like the Gulf Coast race of
Clapper Rail shown in Sibley.
At 02:31 PM 2005-04-08 -0400, Hugh McGuinness wrote:
>Bryan Pfeiffer, who took these photos, sent them to me earlier in the
>week and I had thought that if we saw that bird on Long Island we might
>suggest that it is a "Cling" Rail. Now I realize that these photos were
>taken in a fresh water marsh in north-central Florida, which would seem
>to rule out Clapper Rail, but there a number of features that just don't
>look right for King Rail. First, the bird is not a bright rusty color
>underneath; second the feather edgings on the back look gray (perhaps
>slightly brownish gray); third there is a big gray face patch. Also the
>bill is not particularly bright. Clapper rails up north are considerably
>duller than this bird, but my memory of King Rail (I haven't seen one in
>a long time) is that they are brighter than this bird. So here's the
>question I have for people who see them regularly down south: is this a
>typical plumage for King Rail?
>
>hugh
>
>
>Resend of rail urls- this time with file extensions-
>
>http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/rail1.jpg
>
>http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/rail2.jpg
>
>
>John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
>
Good birding,
Steve Sosensky, SoCA Bird Guides www.sosensky.com/guides/
<mailto:steve(AT)sosensky.com> for general use
<mailto:mobile(AT)sosensky.com> rare birds and emergencies only
Toluca Lake, CA 91602 818-508-4946 34.15645 N, 118.36715 W
www.SoCalAudubon.org/socal/ www.SanFernandoValleyAudubon.org/sfvas/
SoCal FRS: use channel 11 code 22
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Subject: Re: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: Harry LeGrand <harry.legrand(AT)NCMAIL.NET>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 12:22pm
I guess I am not the only person who refers to the two "species" as
Cling Rail, as I do this a lot in NC. Two good, true species are
supposed to differ in calls, etc., where the habitat/range overlap, but
there is a gray zone in the brackish to oligohaline marshes in NC where
the calls of the two (if one really believes there are two species
involved) are about indistinguishable. In salt marshes, we hear the
typical "kek"-ing, and in good freshwater marshes we generally hear the
descending grunting somewhat like the Virginia Rail, but of course a
deeper call.
As for plumage, I also will add that, at least in NC, King Rails
normally have nice rusty "shoulders", not like the colder gray/brown I
see on the "shoulders" in the photos.
Clapper Rails do occasionally occur inland in the East, at least they
have been picked up at tower kills, so at least some migrate OVER inland
parts, whether they land in a marsh or not. So -- just because it was in
a freshwater marsh in north-central FL doesn't make this a King Rail,
and I also tend to think it looks like a Clapper.
Harry
Hugh McGuinness wrote:
> Bryan Pfeiffer, who took these photos, sent them to me earlier in the
> week and I had thought that if we saw that bird on Long Island we might
> suggest that it is a "Cling" Rail. Now I realize that these photos were
> taken in a fresh water marsh in north-central Florida, which would seem
> to rule out Clapper Rail, but there a number of features that just don't
> look right for King Rail. First, the bird is not a bright rusty color
> underneath; second the feather edgings on the back look gray (perhaps
> slightly brownish gray); third there is a big gray face patch. Also the
> bill is not particularly bright. Clapper rails up north are considerably
> duller than this bird, but my memory of King Rail (I haven't seen one in
> a long time) is that they are brighter than this bird. So here's the
> question I have for people who see them regularly down south: is this a
> typical plumage for King Rail?
>
> hugh
>
> Hugh McGuinness
> The Ross School
> 18 Goodfriend Drive
> East Hampton, NY 11963
> hmcguinness(AT)ross.org
> 631-907-4229 (no messages please)
> 631-697-2099 (cell)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Idzikowski
> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 1:19 PM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] King vs. Clapper Rail
>
> Resend of rail urls- this time with file extensions-
>
> http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/rail1.jpg
>
> http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/rail2.jpg
>
>
> John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
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--
Harry LeGrand
NC Natural Heritage Program
DENR Office of Conservation and Community Affairs
1601 MSC
Raleigh, NC 27699-1601
(919) 715-8697 (work)
FAX: 919-715-3085
e-mail: harry.legrand(AT)ncmail.net
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Subject: Re: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: Noel Wamer <nwamer(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 12:25pm
More info on the rail...
It was photographed in north-central Florida, in or near Gainesville
during the past week. I presume, therefore, that the bird may be in
fresh plumage.
I have so little experience with King Rail that I will not comment
on the particulars of this bird. However, there a many locations in
Florida where the "species" could come into contact. These
conditions were noted by the enigmatic C. J. Pennock on the northern
Gulf Coast in the early 1900's (in Bent). So, an introgressed bird
should not be ruled out. The location of this bird is distant from
Clapper habitat (roughly 50 miles), but birds do disperse.
Later...
--
Noel Wamer
Jacksonville, FL
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Subject: Re: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: Noel Wamer <nwamer(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 1:57pm
Even more info (back-channel) on the rail...
The rail was one of a pair accompanying downy young at Paynes
Prairie State Preserve, just south of Gainesville, FL. This is an
entirely a freshwater ecosystem, as far as I know. If this bird has
any Clapper DNA in it, it can in from elsewhere, but like I said
earlier, birds disperse...
Later...
--
Noel Wamer
Jacksonville, FL
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Subject: Re: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: Bryan Pfeiffer <Bryan(AT)VERMONTBIRDTOURS.COM>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 2:46pm
Correction and clarification are in order on the Cling Rail thread:
First, John Idzikowski's posted photos are of two different birds. I
photographed the rail(s) in question on 6August at Payne's Prairie State
Park south of Gainesville, FL. One of John's posted photos is not mine.
Below are links to three of my shots. Note that the light was low and
fickle. I used natural light for the first shot (the birds were about 75m
away), and the camera's built-in flash for the second and third. I suspect
lighting (perhaps the camera's white balance settings) could be an
aggravating factor here.
http://www.wingsphotography.com/clingrail.html - For many reasons already
discussed, I would have called this bird (with chicks) a Clapper or Cling.
http://www.wingsphotography.com/clingrail2.html - This could very well be a
separate individual at the same location. It was sans chicks.
http://www.wingsphotography.com/clingrail3.html - This is the same
individual as the one above.
I had immediate doubts about these birds as King Rail. Being a land-locked
New Englander, I've not seen King Rail for 20 years. But I would have
called them Clapper/Cling. However, in that third photo, there is a hint of
rusty feathering on the upper tail coverts, back and scaps. The feather
centers are clean dark, which I gather may be better for King. The belly
may be better for King. I'm told by knowledgeable birders that Clapper Rail
records are rare at this location.
-Bryan Pfeiffer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WINGS ENVIRONMENTAL
113 Bartlett Road
Plainfield, VT 05667
Ecological Inventories of Birds and Insects.
Web: www.WingsEnvironmental.com
E-Mail: Bryan(AT)WingsEnvironmental.com
Phone: (802) 454-4640
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Subject: Re: King vs. Clapper Rail
From: Ross Silcock <silcock(AT)rosssilcock.com>
Date: 8 Apr 2005 4:46pm
Hi all:
As Harry mentioned, Clappers do migrate over inland areas; there is a
Nebraska specimen caught in a mink trap in January! Needless to say, the
only record for Nebraska.
Has anyone done generic studies on Clapper/King Rails?
Ross
Ross Silcock
First Express Insurance
P.O. Box 57
Sidney, IA 51653
712-374-2645, fax 712-374-2536
rsilcock(AT)firstexpressinsurance.com
http://www.firstexpressinsurance.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Wamer" <nwamer(AT)COMCAST.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] King vs. Clapper Rail
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Subject: Re: more pics of the possible Atlantic YLGU in
TX, plus lots of 'em from the Azores!
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 9 Apr 2005 6:22am
Dear all,
Thanks to Phil Pickering I am reminded that this phenomenon of YLGU-like
"LBBGs" (or are they Atlantic YGLUs?) is not a new one, and the two
examples mentioned by him are in the same category as many of the recent
ones. Just because I (or anyone else) originally labelled them as LBBG
does not actually MAKE them LBBGs... I've been known to make the
occasional error :-)
Such birds add to the statistical argument that these are not all
LBBGs. Consider the YLGU-like features that they show (either individually
or - more often - in combination): lots of white on the outer retrices;
black tail band tapering on the outsides; pale panel on the inner
primaries; a "V" or "U"-shaped band of lowermost uppertail coverts that
have more white and chevrons rather than bars; 2nd-gen mantle/scaps paler
than the rest of the upperparts in flight; molt in the tertials,
subtertails and/or wing coverts before ca. end of Feb; P10 not extending
past P9; plus other more subtle things.
To varying degrees the above features in LBBG range from uncommon to
extremely rare. The percentage of all LBBG-types seen in TX in the last
six or seven years than exhibit a suite of these features seems way too
high to be explained by normal variation in LBBG, I think - but I'd value
the thoughts of those more experienced with large numbers of young LBBGs in
the Dec - Feb/March period... thanks.
Martin
At 4/8/2005 09:02 AM -0700, you wrote:
> > Yesterday I got more photos of the rather different-looking YLGU-like 1B
>gull:
> > http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp86b.html
>
>
>I assume there is significant overlap in size/structure, but I think this
>bird is
>at least more on the LBBG end of things - the head is proportionately
>small compared to the body/bill and the eye is proportionately quite large.
>The large majority of the atlantis on Martin's site don't seem to look
>quite so LBBG-like in these aspects - on avg they look more herring-like.
>
>Also for whatever it's worth for comparison, there are two flight series
>of similar-looking 1C birds categorized as LBBG on Martin's site that
>also show the pale interior areas on the outer webs of the inner primaries:
>http://www.martinreid.com/lbbgp03.html
>http://www.martinreid.com/lbbgp04.html
>
>Cheers,
>
>Phil
>
>
>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
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Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
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Subject: Re: more pics of the possible Atlantic YLGU in
TX, plus lots of 'em from the Azores!
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 9 Apr 2005 10:16pm
> Such birds add to the statistical argument that these are not all
> LBBGs.
Perhaps, but speaking of statistical arguments, if these are really
most/all atlantis is there a known age segregation in dispersal
strategy that would account for the comparative dearth of
candidates of other age classes in North America? (I know
atlantis is thought to be largely sedentary.) At least if multiple 1C
birds are reaching Texas due to abnormal displacement or
vagrancy it would seem logical to expect older birds to be rarely
but regularly detected further north in central North America,
if not in Texas. Or have they been? Curious what is known
about this, or at least what the theory is.
Cheers,
Phil
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