ID-FRONTIERS for April 10-16, 2005

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Odd herring gull in Norfolk, UK   James Gilroy    Sun, 10 Apr 2005   5:17am   Pale-billed and Lineated Woodpeckers   Lethaby, Nick   Mon, 11 Apr 2005   10:04am   Re: Pale-billed and Lineated Woodpeckers   Chris Benesh    Mon, 11 Apr 2005   11:18am   Re: Odd herring gull in Norfolk, UK   Dick Newell    Mon, 11 Apr 2005   11:44am   Re: Pale-billed and Lineated Woodpeckers   Kent Nickell    Tue, 12 Apr 2005   2:37am   Solitary Sandpiper untacs   creagrus    Thu, 14 Apr 2005   1:33pm   Re: Solitary Sandpiper untacs   Kimball Garrett    Thu, 14 Apr 2005   4:04pm   Re: Solitary Sandpiper untacs   Lethaby, Nick   Fri, 15 Apr 2005   8:19am   Re: Solitary Sandpiper untacs   Jeff Davis    Fri, 15 Apr 2005   3:09pm   Re: Solitary Sandpiper untacs   Lethaby, Nick   Fri, 15 Apr 2005   3:15pm   Hybrid waterfowl   Harry Lehto    Fri, 15 Apr 2005   3:28pm   Re: Hybrid waterfowl   Lethaby, Nick   Fri, 15 Apr 2005   3:31pm   Re: Hybrid waterfowl   GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM   Sat, 16 Apr 2005   7:22pm

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Odd herring gull in Norfolk, UK
From: James Gilroy <J.Gilroy(AT)UEA.AC.UK>
Date: 10 Apr 2005 5:17am

Dear All,

Yet another gull I’m afraid, but one from the UK this time. Myself and Alex 
Lees came across an unusual adult Herring Gull at Thornham point, Norfolk 
yesterday. I’ve posted some pics on the surfbirds UK Scarce gallery:

http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gallery/display.cgi?gallery=gallery12

The photos are of rather poor quality, and unfortunately there are no pics of 
the open wing. It appears to be either a super- dark argentatus, or possibly a 
michahellis with pink legs. On the closed wing, the white blobs on the primary 
tips seem rather large for michahellis (and also vegae), and seem to fit 
argentatus best. We only got poor views of the open wing as the bird flew 
away, but it appeared to show more features of michahellis (extensive black in 
primaries, limited pale tongues extending onto black).

I suspect the photos are too poor to do anything with, but any comments would 
be fully appreciated. Does argentatus ever show a mantle colour this dark?
 
James Gilroy

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Subject: Pale-billed and Lineated Woodpeckers
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 11 Apr 2005 10:04am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

All:

Based on some experience in Ixtapa, GRO, Mexico the last couple of
years, I have some questions about reliability of the separation
criteria listed in Howell for these two species. I have had three
sightings involving 5 birds.

1/ The first bird showed the head pattern and shape of a female
Pale-billed, but the white lines on the back did not connect in a V
(which is a feature of Lineated).

2/ I saw two birds together that both showed the head pattern and shape
of Pale-billed, had the white V on the back, and had calls that clearly
matched the description of Pale-billed. These were presumably
Pale-billeds, but I noticed that the red on the face overlaid a pattern
of black-and-white striping (which is more like a Lineated). The effect
was similar to that often shown by the southern race of Red-breasted
Sapsucker. I was also suspicious that an apparent pair would both show a
female head pattern.

3/ I saw two birds together. I didn't have time to study these in detail
because I was taking my young children on a birding walk. However, at
least one certainly show a white V on the back, but the head shape of a
Lineated with an obvious tuft. The face also seemed to have less red as
one would expect in a Lineated.

I assume that since these two species are sympatric over their range
that they have good isolation mechanisms and don't hybridize. Can anyone
comment on this apparent mix of features?

Thanks,

Nick Lethaby

DSP/BIOS Product Manager

Software Development Systems

Texas Instruments

805 562 5106

nlethaby(AT)ti.com

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Subject: Re: Pale-billed and Lineated Woodpeckers
From: Chris Benesh <cdbenesh(AT)COX.NET>
Date: 11 Apr 2005 11:18am

Hi Nick,

1) From my own experience, the difference in the white back stripes is  
really not whether they connect or not, but where they are positioned  
on the back.  On Lineated, these stripes are very broadly spaced and  
are either parallel or gradually approaching at their posterior  
terminus.  On Pale-billed, the stripes are much closer together below  
the nape, and come closer together as they proceed down the back.  In  
most of the birds I have studied, the stripes do not quite merge at  
their lower terminus.  The difference is presumably what tracts of  
scapulars create the stripe (uppermost in Pale-billed, and lowermost in  
Lineated).  So I suppose Howell is misleading in this respect.

2)  I think that the head pattern you describe is okay for Pale-billed  
(i.e., having a ghosting of pattern underlying the red).  See the  
following link for an example:

http://jrscience.wcp.muohio.edu/costa_rica_animals_04/corcovado/ 
pale_billed_woodpecker_profile.jpg

It is important to note throat color as well, either white with dense,  
dark peppering (most Lineated, some juvs with white throats) or solidly  
black or red (Pale-billed).  It can be more reliable than assessing  
facial striping at times, especially with some poorly marked  
_scapularis_ Lineated in West Mexico.  I'm unsure about your seeing two  
female-plumaged birds together, but perhaps you were viewing a female  
attending a juvenile or something of that sort.

3)  Tough one based on the description but both crest shape and V  
pattern on back are variable due to age, sex, wear, and in the case of  
the back V, perhaps whether scaps are relaxed and drooped or not.

Regards,

Chris

----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Benesh
32°09.512N, 110°46.248W
Tucson, Arizona
cdbenesh(AT)cox.net

"Minds are like parachutes.  They only function when they are open."
James Dewar
-----------------------------------------------------------------
On Apr 11, 2005, at 10:04 AM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:

> All:
>
> Based on some experience in Ixtapa, GRO, Mexico the last couple of  
> years, I have some questions about reliability of the separation  
> criteria listed in Howell for these two species. I have had three  
> sightings involving 5 birds.
>
> 1/ The first bird showed the head pattern and shape of a female  
> Pale-billed, but the white lines on the back did not connect in a V  
> (which is a feature of Lineated).
>
> 2/ I saw two birds together that both showed the head pattern and  
> shape of Pale-billed, had the white V on the back, and had calls that  
> clearly matched the description of Pale-billed. These were presumably  
> Pale-billeds, but I noticed that the red on the face overlaid a  
> pattern of black-and-white striping (which is more like a Lineated).  
> The effect was similar to that often shown by the southern race of  
> Red-breasted Sapsucker. I was also suspicious that an apparent pair  
> would both show a female head pattern.
>
> 3/ I saw two birds together. I didn’t have time to study these in  
> detail because I was taking my young children on a birding walk.  
> However, at least one certainly show a white V on the back, but the  
> head shape of a Lineated with an obvious tuft. The face also seemed to  
> have less red as one would expect in a Lineated.
>
> I assume that since these two species are sympatric over their range  
> that they have good isolation mechanisms and don’t hybridize. Can  
> anyone comment on this apparent mix of features?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nick Lethaby
>
> DSP/BIOS Product Manager
>
> Software Development Systems
>
> Texas Instruments
>
> 805 562 5106
>
> nlethaby(AT)ti.com
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:  
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
>  Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
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>

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Subject: Re: Odd herring gull in Norfolk, UK
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 11 Apr 2005 11:44am

Re:  http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gallery/display.cgi?gallery=gallery12

[you need to hit next a few times to find this bird]
This bird is not michahellis imho on account of its overall shape:
wing-extension and head-shape. I might be tempted into some hybrid, but
would find it hard to argue against a dark argentatus. A flight shot would
have been useful.
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK

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Subject: Re: Pale-billed and Lineated Woodpeckers
From: Kent Nickell <mountainpath(AT)gmail.com>
Date: 12 Apr 2005 2:37am

Hi all, I've got a few photos of 2 female Pale-billeds that I recently
took in Belize at http://www.greenbackedheron.com/photo.cfm?setid=1380
(unfortunately I was unable to capture a Lineated!)     Regards,  
Kent

Kent Nickell
Canon 20D/100-400 IS
Waterloo, Iowa  USA
mountainpath(AT)gmail.com
www.greenbackedheron.com

On Apr 11, 2005 1:17 PM, Chris Benesh <cdbenesh(AT)cox.net> wrote:
> Hi Nick,
> 
> 1) From my own experience, the difference in the white back stripes is
> really not whether they connect or not, but where they are positioned
> on the back.  On Lineated, these stripes are very broadly spaced and
> are either parallel or gradually approaching at their posterior
> terminus.  On Pale-billed, the stripes are much closer together below
> the nape, and come closer together as they proceed down the back.  In
> most of the birds I have studied, the stripes do not quite merge at
> their lower terminus.  The difference is presumably what tracts of
> scapulars create the stripe (uppermost in Pale-billed, and lowermost in
> Lineated).  So I suppose Howell is misleading in this respect.
> 
> 2)  I think that the head pattern you describe is okay for Pale-billed
> (i.e., having a ghosting of pattern underlying the red).  See the
> following link for an example:
> 
> http://jrscience.wcp.muohio.edu/costa_rica_animals_04/corcovado/
> pale_billed_woodpecker_profile.jpg
> 
> It is important to note throat color as well, either white with dense,
> dark peppering (most Lineated, some juvs with white throats) or solidly
> black or red (Pale-billed).  It can be more reliable than assessing
> facial striping at times, especially with some poorly marked
> _scapularis_ Lineated in West Mexico.  I'm unsure about your seeing two
> female-plumaged birds together, but perhaps you were viewing a female
> attending a juvenile or something of that sort.
> 
> 3)  Tough one based on the description but both crest shape and V
> pattern on back are variable due to age, sex, wear, and in the case of
> the back V, perhaps whether scaps are relaxed and drooped or not.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Chris
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Chris Benesh
> 32°09.512N, 110°46.248W
> Tucson, Arizona
> cdbenesh(AT)cox.net
> 
> "Minds are like parachutes.  They only function when they are open."
> James Dewar
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> On Apr 11, 2005, at 10:04 AM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
> 
> > All:
> >
> > Based on some experience in Ixtapa, GRO, Mexico the last couple of
> > years, I have some questions about reliability of the separation
> > criteria listed in Howell for these two species. I have had three
> > sightings involving 5 birds.
> >
> > 1/ The first bird showed the head pattern and shape of a female
> > Pale-billed, but the white lines on the back did not connect in a V
> > (which is a feature of Lineated).
> >
> > 2/ I saw two birds together that both showed the head pattern and
> > shape of Pale-billed, had the white V on the back, and had calls that
> > clearly matched the description of Pale-billed. These were presumably
> > Pale-billeds, but I noticed that the red on the face overlaid a
> > pattern of black-and-white striping (which is more like a Lineated).
> > The effect was similar to that often shown by the southern race of
> > Red-breasted Sapsucker. I was also suspicious that an apparent pair
> > would both show a female head pattern.
> >
> > 3/ I saw two birds together. I didn't have time to study these in
> > detail because I was taking my young children on a birding walk.
> > However, at least one certainly show a white V on the back, but the
> > head shape of a Lineated with an obvious tuft. The face also seemed to
> > have less red as one would expect in a Lineated.
> >
> > I assume that since these two species are sympatric over their range
> > that they have good isolation mechanisms and don't hybridize. Can
> > anyone comment on this apparent mix of features?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Nick Lethaby
> >
> > DSP/BIOS Product Manager
> >
> > Software Development Systems
> >
> > Texas Instruments
> >
> > 805 562 5106
> >
> > nlethaby(AT)ti.com
> >
> > Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
> >
> >  Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> >  Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
> >
> >  Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> 
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 

-- 
Kent Nickell
Canon 20D/100-400 IS
Waterloo, Iowa  USA
mountainpath(AT)gmail.com
www.greenbackedheron.com

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Subject: Solitary Sandpiper untacs
From: creagrus <creagrus(AT)MONTEREYBAY.COM>
Date: 14 Apr 2005 1:33pm

An alternate plumaged Solitary Sandpiper in Monterey County, CA, this 
last weekend had distinctly barred undertail coverts [photo: see  
http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTY_2005.html   top of page]. I have not 
located reference to this in the shorebird texts that I checked [e.g., 
Moskoff (1995) BONA #156, Hayman et al., Paulson], although some sketchs 
in both Moskoff and Hayman suggest it is a known variation. Someone with 
easy access to a museum tray of skins in alternate plumage should be 
able to answer this question: how often (i.e., what percentage) do 
Solitary Sandpipers show this pattern? Thanks.

Don Roberson
Pacific Grove CA

P.S.  "untacs" for "undertail coverts" is an abbreviation first 
pioneered, I think, by Edwards in his Mexican guide.  The literature 
does describe SOSA uptacs as barred.

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Subject: Re: Solitary Sandpiper untacs
From: Kimball Garrett <kgarrett(AT)NHM.ORG>
Date: 14 Apr 2005 4:04pm

Don:

A perusal of our 30 Solitary Sandpiper skins (19 cinnamomea, 11
nominate) suggests that transverse barring on the undertail coverts is
the norm in all plumages.  A few birds show essentially no barring, but
most show 1 to 3 rows of bars.  Interestingly, these blackish bars on
the undertail coverts can line up nicely with the bars on the rectrices,
so they may be hard to notice until one considers that the undertail
coverts actually hide much of the underside of the tail.

I would agree with you that the Monterey Co. bird is at the extreme for
under tail covert barring -- by an extra bar or two.

Kimball

Kimball L. Garrett
Ornithology Collections Manager
Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
900 Exposition Blvd.
Los Angeles CA 90007
(213) 763-3368
(213) 746-2999 FAX
kgarrett(AT)nhm.org

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of creagrus
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Solitary Sandpiper untacs

An alternate plumaged Solitary Sandpiper in Monterey County, CA, this 
last weekend had distinctly barred undertail coverts [photo: see  
http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTY_2005.html   top of page]. I have not

located reference to this in the shorebird texts that I checked [e.g., 
Moskoff (1995) BONA #156, Hayman et al., Paulson], although some sketchs

in both Moskoff and Hayman suggest it is a known variation. Someone with

easy access to a museum tray of skins in alternate plumage should be 
able to answer this question: how often (i.e., what percentage) do 
Solitary Sandpipers show this pattern? Thanks.

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Subject: Re: Solitary Sandpiper untacs
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 15 Apr 2005 8:19am

Don:

I wrote a note on this some years ago for Birding World. Basically adult
Solitary Sandpipers all show barring on the undertail coverts to some
extent although it can be quite difficult to observe. It is diagnostic
from Green Sandpiper. Juveniles (or at some juvs) do not show it. I am
not sure when they are molted in, but I recall that birds past late
September show the barring. However I have only studied a relatively
small number of specimens and live birds.

Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of creagrus
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Solitary Sandpiper untacs

An alternate plumaged Solitary Sandpiper in Monterey County, CA, this 
last weekend had distinctly barred undertail coverts [photo: see  
http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTY_2005.html   top of page]. I have not

located reference to this in the shorebird texts that I checked [e.g., 
Moskoff (1995) BONA #156, Hayman et al., Paulson], although some sketchs

in both Moskoff and Hayman suggest it is a known variation. Someone with

easy access to a museum tray of skins in alternate plumage should be 
able to answer this question: how often (i.e., what percentage) do 
Solitary Sandpipers show this pattern? Thanks.

Don Roberson
Pacific Grove CA

P.S.  "untacs" for "undertail coverts" is an abbreviation first 
pioneered, I think, by Edwards in his Mexican guide.  The literature 
does describe SOSA uptacs as barred.

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Subject: Re: Solitary Sandpiper untacs
From: Jeff Davis <jndavis(AT)NETPTC.NET>
Date: 15 Apr 2005 3:09pm

I checked ~50 photos of Solitary Sandpiper on the Internet. Of 20 or so 
birds in a revealing posture, none showed clearly barred undertail 
coverts. This feature is obviously difficult to see, as Nick Lethaby 
pointed out. It therefore makes sense that field guides would depict 
most birds with clean white "untacs," but why -- if barring is typical 
-- would detailed plumage descriptions based on skins not mention 
barring? Even Ridgway (1919) implies the untacs are pure white.

Jeff Davis
Prather, CA

On Apr 14, 2005, at 4:04 PM, Kimball Garrett wrote:

> Don:
>
> A perusal of our 30 Solitary Sandpiper skins (19 cinnamomea, 11
> nominate) suggests that transverse barring on the undertail coverts is
> the norm in all plumages.  A few birds show essentially no barring, but
> most show 1 to 3 rows of bars.  Interestingly, these blackish bars on
> the undertail coverts can line up nicely with the bars on the 
> rectrices,
> so they may be hard to notice until one considers that the undertail
> coverts actually hide much of the underside of the tail.
>
> I would agree with you that the Monterey Co. bird is at the extreme for
> under tail covert barring -- by an extra bar or two.
>
> Kimball
>
> Kimball L. Garrett
> Ornithology Collections Manager
> Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
> 900 Exposition Blvd.
> Los Angeles CA 90007
> (213) 763-3368
> (213) 746-2999 FAX
> kgarrett(AT)nhm.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of creagrus
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:31 PM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Solitary Sandpiper untacs
>
> An alternate plumaged Solitary Sandpiper in Monterey County, CA, this
> last weekend had distinctly barred undertail coverts [photo: see
> http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTY_2005.html   top of page]. I have 
> not
>
> located reference to this in the shorebird texts that I checked [e.g.,
> Moskoff (1995) BONA #156, Hayman et al., Paulson], although some 
> sketchs
>
> in both Moskoff and Hayman suggest it is a known variation. Someone 
> with
>
> easy access to a museum tray of skins in alternate plumage should be
> able to answer this question: how often (i.e., what percentage) do
> Solitary Sandpipers show this pattern? Thanks.

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Subject: Re: Solitary Sandpiper untacs
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 15 Apr 2005 3:15pm

All:

To see this feature, you typically need to look at bird from the rear
and wait for it to bob it's rear-end up either in alarm or through
bending forward to feed. You can usually see the barring this way. It's
is not usually visible from a side view.

Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 3:09 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Solitary Sandpiper untacs

I checked ~50 photos of Solitary Sandpiper on the Internet. Of 20 or so 
birds in a revealing posture, none showed clearly barred undertail 
coverts. This feature is obviously difficult to see, as Nick Lethaby 
pointed out. It therefore makes sense that field guides would depict 
most birds with clean white "untacs," but why -- if barring is typical 
-- would detailed plumage descriptions based on skins not mention 
barring? Even Ridgway (1919) implies the untacs are pure white.

Jeff Davis
Prather, CA

On Apr 14, 2005, at 4:04 PM, Kimball Garrett wrote:

> Don:
>
> A perusal of our 30 Solitary Sandpiper skins (19 cinnamomea, 11
> nominate) suggests that transverse barring on the undertail coverts is
> the norm in all plumages.  A few birds show essentially no barring,
but
> most show 1 to 3 rows of bars.  Interestingly, these blackish bars on
> the undertail coverts can line up nicely with the bars on the 
> rectrices,
> so they may be hard to notice until one considers that the undertail
> coverts actually hide much of the underside of the tail.
>
> I would agree with you that the Monterey Co. bird is at the extreme
for
> under tail covert barring -- by an extra bar or two.
>
> Kimball
>
> Kimball L. Garrett
> Ornithology Collections Manager
> Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
> 900 Exposition Blvd.
> Los Angeles CA 90007
> (213) 763-3368
> (213) 746-2999 FAX
> kgarrett(AT)nhm.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of creagrus
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:31 PM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Solitary Sandpiper untacs
>
> An alternate plumaged Solitary Sandpiper in Monterey County, CA, this
> last weekend had distinctly barred undertail coverts [photo: see
> http://montereybay.com/creagrus/MTY_2005.html   top of page]. I have 
> not
>
> located reference to this in the shorebird texts that I checked [e.g.,
> Moskoff (1995) BONA #156, Hayman et al., Paulson], although some 
> sketchs
>
> in both Moskoff and Hayman suggest it is a known variation. Someone 
> with
>
> easy access to a museum tray of skins in alternate plumage should be
> able to answer this question: how often (i.e., what percentage) do
> Solitary Sandpipers show this pattern? Thanks.

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Subject: Hybrid waterfowl
From: Harry Lehto <hlehto(AT)UTU.FI>
Date: 15 Apr 2005 3:28pm

Dear all,
            A week ago I and my son went to see two waterfowls which
were reported as a Mallard x Red-crested Porchard  (Anas platyrhynchos x
Netta rufina) hybrid. After driving 300kms, and with help from local
birders we managed to find the birds. The sun was low, and the light was
quite dim. I managed to get some distant pictures of the birds. I don't
know what these birds are. For pictures and description of the birds see
http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/hybrid/unknown.shtml
I would welcome comments and educated guesses about the identity of
these birds including their sex.

Finally, have you seen similar birds? 

Regards
Harry
hlehto(atsign)utu.fi

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Subject: Re: Hybrid waterfowl
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 15 Apr 2005 3:31pm

Harry:

I remember there was such a hybrid about 20-25 years ago (wow am I that
old!) at Cheddar Resevoir in Somerset in the UK. I saw it and the
parentage seemed various obvious. Some of the long-time Bristol birders
like Brian Rabbits or Keith Vinicombe might have detailed notes on it.

Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Harry Lehto
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 3:29 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Hybrid waterfowl

Dear all,
            A week ago I and my son went to see two waterfowls which
were reported as a Mallard x Red-crested Porchard  (Anas platyrhynchos x
Netta rufina) hybrid. After driving 300kms, and with help from local
birders we managed to find the birds. The sun was low, and the light was
quite dim. I managed to get some distant pictures of the birds. I don't
know what these birds are. For pictures and description of the birds see
http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/hybrid/unknown.shtml
I would welcome comments and educated guesses about the identity of
these birds including their sex.

Finally, have you seen similar birds? 

Regards
Harry
hlehto(atsign)utu.fi

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Subject: Re: Hybrid waterfowl
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 16 Apr 2005 7:22pm

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Hi all:
 
I don't really understand why Harry says that they cannot be males  (from the 
webpage:
"It is quite obvious that our birds do not represent males of this hybrid  
combination.").    Neither of the two putative parental species  have females 
with black vents and uppertail coverts - these really are male  features.  In 
addition to the confusion that Harry expressed, I am also  confused by the 
incredibly long and quite thin bill.  Of course,  hybridization can introduce
some
crazy characters....
 
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

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