ID-FRONTIERS for April 17-23, 2005

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: Hybrid waterfowl   Harry Lehto    Sun, 17 Apr 2005   4:30am   a Lesser Black-backed/ Atlantis YLGU like Gull, from Ontario   The Holdens    Sun, 17 Apr 2005   7:23pm   Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office.   Paul Wood    Sun, 17 Apr 2005   8:28pm   More hybrid ducks - a double-cross?   Ian McLaren    Mon, 18 Apr 2005   6:42am   More hybrid ducks - correction   Ian McLaren    Mon, 18 Apr 2005   7:28am   Re: More hybrid ducks - a double-cross?   Wayne C. Weber   Mon, 18 Apr 2005   7:53am   Horned Robin   John Idzikowski    Mon, 18 Apr 2005   8:42pm   FW: Runt Whimbrel?   Steve Sosensky    Tue, 19 Apr 2005   11:21pm   So you thought gulls were finally over....   Martin Reid    Thu, 21 Apr 2005   6:04am   Re: So you thought gulls were finally over....   Phillip Pickering    Thu, 21 Apr 2005   10:12am   Re: So you thought gulls were finally over....   Phillip Pickering    Thu, 21 Apr 2005   10:23am   More gulls   John Idzikowski    Thu, 21 Apr 2005   11:45am

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Subject: Re: Hybrid waterfowl
From: Harry Lehto <hlehto(AT)UTU.FI>
Date: 17 Apr 2005 4:30am

Tony, 
    a coupel of remarks to your questions
> I don't really understand why Harry says that they cannot be males 
> (from the webpage:
> "It is quite obvious that our birds do not represent males of this 
> hybrid combination."). 

What I am saying that the original suggestion of male Red-crested Pochard x
Mallard appears not to be correct (see the links to two birds elsewhere in
Europe - I have several pictures of similar bright colored birds that were quite
 obviously RCPochard x Mallards). Yes, they indeed do appear as males of
some sort, but originally I was a bit (over)cautious in not ruling out 
a female Pochard x Mallard -- this cautiousness is still in the web page.

> addition to the confusion that Harry expressed, I am also  
> confused by the 
> incredibly long and quite thin bill.  

Absolutely

Regards
Harry
hlehto(atsign)utu.fi

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Subject: a Lesser Black-backed/ Atlantis YLGU like Gull,
         from Ontario
From: The Holdens <holdens(AT)MOUNTAINCABLE.NET>
Date: 17 Apr 2005 7:23pm

Hello Everyone,

I found an interesting gull today, which appeared to be a large LBBG at first
glance, however had a very noticeable pale window on
the inner primaries. I would really appreciate comments on the ID of this bird,
which I've posted photos of on my website.

http://www.peregrineprints.com/gulls/pg/mystery/mystery.htm

Good Birding everyone!

Brandon Holden
Hamilton, Ontario 

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Subject: Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office.
From: Paul Wood <paul.r.wood(AT)uk.pwc.com>
Date: 17 Apr 2005 8:28pm

I will be out of the office from 18/04/2005 until 19/04/2005.

I am away from the office on Monday 18 April 2005 at an all day meeting,
returning on Tuesday 19 April 2005.  I will not have access to my e-mail
during this time and will respond to your message when I return to the
office.
_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: More hybrid ducks - a double-cross?
From: Ian McLaren <I.A.McLaren(AT)DAL.CA>
Date: 18 Apr 2005 6:42am

All:

A local feed merchant has an adjacent pond at which wild waterfowl are
suatained
through winter.  This unnatural propinquity has led to hanky panky and in turn
a number of clearly Mallard X N Pintail hybrids that have been wandering in the
region for the past three winters. Now there is an interesting addition of a
bird that some of us judge to be an Am. WigeonX(MallardXPintail). You can judge
for yourselves at the following:

       http://bernieb.smugmug.com/gallery/459662/2/19790914

There are 9 pics. The upper row includes a couple of male MallardXpintails
-others have a green head stripe like a Chiloe Wigeon added to largely
pintail-like features. The middle row has some shots from winter of what
appears to be a male in Basic I, with a wigeon-like head and a female-type
pintail tail (note the tail barring on the middle bird). These are underexposed
and may need brightening on screen. In the lower row is what seems to be the
same bird photo'd a few days ago, now entering Alt I, with more clearly
wigeon-like features, except for that prominent green head stripe. Logically
enough in quantitative genetic terms, the 1/4 Mallard and 1/4 pintail
contributions seem swamped by the 1/2 measure of wigeon.

Do people agree with the diagnosis, and are 3-way hybrids more widely known
outside of waterfowl collections?

Cheers, Ian

Ian A. McLaren
Biology Department
Dalhousie University
Halifax, NS B3H 4J1

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Subject: More hybrid ducks - correction
From: Ian McLaren <I.A.McLaren(AT)DAL.CA>
Date: 18 Apr 2005 7:28am

Sorry, all.

Should have checked the site before sending. There are now four rows of pics,
with four, not three, in each of the upper three.  The previous descriptions
remain adequate, and the bottom row adds a different MallarX pintail combo
added recently.

Cheers, Ian M.

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Subject: Re: More hybrid ducks - a double-cross?
From: "Wayne C. Weber" <contopus(AT)TELUS.NET>
Date: 18 Apr 2005 7:53am

Ian,

Where I live in the Pacific Northwest, we see quite a few free-flying
waterfowl
hybrids. Included are Mallard x Northern Pintail, Gadwall x Am. Wigeon,
Am. x Eurasian Wigeon (quite frequent), Mallard x Am. Black Duck
(resulting from introduced Black Duck populations), Tufted Duck x scaup (one
currently at Lost Lagoon in Vancouver), Barrow's x Common Goldeneye,
etc.

However, a 3-way hybrid is a new one on me. This bird definitely shows
features of all 3 species, Am. Wigeon, N. Pintail, and Mallard. What would
you call
this bird--  a Pinwigard??

Wayne C. Weber
Delta, BC, Canada
contopus(AT)telus.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian McLaren" <I.A.McLaren(AT)DAL.CA>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 6:42 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] More hybrid ducks - a double-cross?

All:

A local feed merchant has an adjacent pond at which wild waterfowl are
suatained
through winter.  This unnatural propinquity has led to hanky panky and in
turn
a number of clearly Mallard X N Pintail hybrids that have been wandering in
the
region for the past three winters. Now there is an interesting addition of a
bird that some of us judge to be an Am. WigeonX(MallardXPintail). You can
judge
for yourselves at the following:

       http://bernieb.smugmug.com/gallery/459662/2/19790914

There are 9 pics. The upper row includes a couple of male MallardXpintails
-others have a green head stripe like a Chiloe Wigeon added to largely
pintail-like features. The middle row has some shots from winter of what
appears to be a male in Basic I, with a wigeon-like head and a female-type
pintail tail (note the tail barring on the middle bird). These are
underexposed
and may need brightening on screen. In the lower row is what seems to be the
same bird photo'd a few days ago, now entering Alt I, with more clearly
wigeon-like features, except for that prominent green head stripe. Logically
enough in quantitative genetic terms, the 1/4 Mallard and 1/4 pintail
contributions seem swamped by the 1/2 measure of wigeon.

Do people agree with the diagnosis, and are 3-way hybrids more widely known
outside of waterfowl collections?

Cheers, Ian

Ian A. McLaren
Biology Department
Dalhousie University
Halifax, NS B3H 4J1

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Subject: Horned Robin
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 18 Apr 2005 8:42pm

This Am. Robin is from Alberta, Canada. While some recent close-up digitals
I have seen seem to show that some birds may have more control over head
feathering for display purposes than we previously suspected or were ever
able to see, has anyone seen anything like this?

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/passerines/Horned%20Robin-SS.jpg

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

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Subject: FW: Runt Whimbrel?
From: Steve Sosensky <Steve(AT)SOSENSKY.COM>
Date: 19 Apr 2005 11:21pm

Hi All,

Jim Greaves <lbvi.man(AT)verizon.net>, who is not a subscriber here, posted 
this to the Santa Barbara Co., Ventura Co., and Calbirds lists. Is this 
just a runt Whimbel or something else?

Lark and I found a small Whimbrel with 2 larger (normal?) ones at
Santa Barbara (California) Sandspit on Saturday (16 April 2005).
Several features of interest are depicted in the many photos I made,
a few of which are posted at this site:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res1uzgs/SantaBarbaraCityHarbor_2.html

Happy Traill's...
Lark and Jim
Santa Barbara CA

Good birding,

Steve Sosensky, SoCA Bird Guides            www.sosensky.com/guides/
         <mailto:steve(AT)sosensky.com>  for general use
         <mailto:mobile(AT)sosensky.com> rare birds and emergencies only
Toluca Lake, CA 91602       818-508-4946     34.15645 N, 118.36715 W
www.SoCalAudubon.org/socal/  www.SanFernandoValleyAudubon.org/sfvas/
SoCal FRS: use channel 11 code 22       

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Subject: So you thought gulls were finally over....
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 21 Apr 2005 6:04am

Dear all,
Here's a bunch of gulls for fellow lariphiles:-
1)This first-Spring bird has the "feel" of SBGU to my eye; look carefully 
at the tail - can smithsonianus ever have outer retrices like this?:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp88.html
2) a first-Spring smith. with striking (presumed) trauma-induced fault-barring:
http://www.martinreid.com/hsmitp81.html
3) This LBBG-type is rather confusing to me - there are many suggestions of 
3CY but those wing coverts and tertials strongly suggest 2CY.  Also, isn't 
the bill a bit strong, and pale for even a 3CY LBBG?  The mantle was quite 
pale - paler than nearby Laughers, and the inner primary panel seems a bit 
extreme for LBBG...?:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp87.html
4) The possible CAGU x RBGU is back; I feel that the latest pics add to the 
evidence that this is not a pure CAGU - what do you think?:
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp54d.html
5) Here's a first- Spring HERG-type that has a well-barred tail-base and 
extensive covert molt (with new coverts being heavily-barred):
http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp89.html

Cheers,
Martin

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com 

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Subject: Re: So you thought gulls were finally over....
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 21 Apr 2005 10:12am

> 1)This first-Spring bird has the "feel" of SBGU to my eye; look carefully 
> at the tail - can smithsonianus ever have outer retrices like this?:
> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp88.html

I agree the head and bill shape might suggest S-b, but overall
it seems a little long-legged and lanky for S-b to me.

Otherwise in terms of plumage I don't think it's a safe candidate.
Assuming the large sample on the Japanese site is representative,
1C spring birds that are anywhere near this worn invariably show 
more contrast - more of a whitish background and less of a muddy 
look than this bird. This is most obvious on the rump and UT coverts,
which typically are nearly white on worn/faded S-b, or at the very
least show strong contrast with the tail - those feathers look quite
muddy brown on this bird and show almost no contrast with the
tail at all. Also on a S-b with this much wear I would expect to
see at least detectable, if not obvious fading to the primary tips -
they still look solidly dark, apparently with atypically heavy 
pigment saturation for S-b.

Also (again) the pattern on the inner primaries seems pretty iffy.
The dark on the tips appears largely confined to the outer webs rather
than extending solidly onto the inner webs, so it seem to lack the
typically S-b look with large, defined tip spots, despite retaining
apparently unfaded solidly dark outer webs.

Can't explain the lack of rect barring for Herring, other than I'd
guess an intergrade, or perhaps a slightly melanistic Herring could
be messed up there and look like this. 

Cheers,

Phil

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Subject: Re: So you thought gulls were finally over....
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 21 Apr 2005 10:23am

> 5) Here's a first- Spring HERG-type that has a well-barred tail-base and 
> extensive covert molt (with new coverts being heavily-barred):
> http://www.martinreid.com/gullsp89.html

Interesting, but I would hope for darker incoming mantle shade on
a Vega candidate.

Cheers,

Phil

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Subject: More gulls
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 21 Apr 2005 11:45am

This is Martin's fault for reminding me of-

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/sshore.htm

-comments desired on the first basic bird with the dark incoming mantle
feathers (top of page).

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

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