ID-FRONTIERS for July 10-16, 2005

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: crow mouth linings   Allen Chartier    Sun, 10 Jul 2005   6:02am   Re: crow mouth linings   Kevin McGowan    Mon, 11 Jul 2005   5:42am   Western Birds   Ian Paulsen    Wed, 13 Jul 2005   2:32pm   Tundraplover identification   Andreas Bruun Kriste   Wed, 13 Jul 2005   3:45pm   Re: Tundraplover identification   Lethaby, Nick   Wed, 13 Jul 2005   4:56pm   Re: Tundraplover identification   Martin Reid    Thu, 14 Jul 2005   5:20am   Re: Tundraplover identification - error   Martin Reid    Thu, 14 Jul 2005   8:22am   rail   Kent Nickell    Fri, 15 Jul 2005   5:55am   3 hours with Donald Kroodsma   Ian Paulsen    Sat, 16 Jul 2005   2:28pm

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Subject: Re: crow mouth linings
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 10 Jul 2005 6:02am

Ian,

If they are like other corvids, including Blue Jays, the mouth lining is
likely black when adult.

Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI  48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet/index.htm

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Paulsen" <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 11:24 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] crow mouth linings

> HI:
>  In Pyle's 1997 book on the identification of North American Birds he
> mentions that the month lining color in American Crows is pink vs orange
> in NWern Crows (juveniles only). Does anyone know the colors of ADULT crow
> mouth linings?
>
> -- 
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
> A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
> "Rallidae all the way!"
>
>
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Subject: Re: crow mouth linings
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 11 Jul 2005 5:42am

It is not apparent where Pyle's information comes from about crow nestling 
mouth color, and I would not trust it very far.  Northwestern Crows may 
very well have more orange mouths, but Verbeek in the BNA account gives the 
color of hatchlings to be "ruby" and of nestlings to be "spinal red."  This 
compares with "bright red" for American Crow.  In fact, the color of 
American Crow nestlings mouths varies from orange to red, with most being 
reddish.  My colleagues and I have been measuring mouth color of nestling 
American Crows pretty precisely, looking at the relationship of color and 
condition.  (Temperature seems to be the most important factor we have 
found so far: the higher the temperature, the redder the mouth). It would 
be interesting to look a Northwestern Crows and see if the same variation 
holds true there.

As far as the adults' mouths go, both species (as well as all other 
American Corvus) have essentially all-black mouths.  It can take a few 
years for a crow to change from red to black; one 6-year old in our 
population was still half red.  Social status affects the change, with 
dominant birds getting darker faster.

Kevin

At 11:24 PM 7/9/2005, Ian Paulsen wrote:
>HI:
>  In Pyle's 1997 book on the identification of North American Birds he
>mentions that the month lining color in American Crows is pink vs orange
>in NWern Crows (juveniles only). Does anyone know the colors of ADULT crow
>mouth linings?
>
>--
>Ian Paulsen
>Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
>A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
>"Rallidae all the way!"
>
>
>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Co-editor, New York State Breeding Bird Atlas
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/

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Subject: Western Birds
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 13 Jul 2005 2:32pm

HI:
 The latest issue of Western Birds came today and it had a couple of
articles that might be of interest:

Western Birds Vol. 36, No. 1 2005:

Fall Bird Migration at Gambell, St. Lawrence Island, Alaska. Paul E.
Lehman. Pages 2-55. Includes nice photos of many rarities.

Featured Photo: Revisiting an old question: how many species of skua occur
in the North Pacific? Steve N.G. Howell. Pages 71-73 including back cover
photos. Raises the possibility that the Brown Skua occurs in the North
Pacific.

-- 
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"

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Subject: Tundraplover identification
From: Andreas Bruun Kristensen <anbrkr(AT)YAHOO.DK>
Date: 13 Jul 2005 3:45pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Dear all,
 
Two Tundraplovers have generated a lot of debate in Denmark as to their
identification. They were found near the German border on July 8th (bird 1), and
 July 9th (bird 2).
I would appreciate any comments to their identification.
 
Bird 1:
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6831
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6830
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6829
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6826
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6825
 
Bird 2:
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6856
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6852
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6818
 
Andreas Bruun Kristensen
AnBrKr(AT)yahoo.dk

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Subject: Re: Tundraplover identification
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 13 Jul 2005 4:56pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Andreas:

=20

These two species can be pretty difficult as you appreciate. The first
bird looks rather more like an American on plumage to me, based on the
amount of black on the underside, but I believe is in the range of a
dark Pacific since the flanks have some white in them. I'm not sure I've
seen a Pacific as dark as this, although I have only had good looks at a
couple of hundred summer plumage birds. The primary/tertial lengths look
very much like a classic Pacific. I can't recall seeing an American like
this but I don't see many living on the west coast. So I would go with
Pacific on this one based on structure.

=20

The second bird is listed as an American on the site, but I don't think
one can rule out a Pacific. Certainly the plumage is fine for a (worn)
Pacific and the bill and tarsus proportions look within range for it
too. Obviously the key feature is the primaries and tertials. Although
this bird definitely looks a lot more classic American than Pacific, I
think it is within range of Pacific. During a visit to the Ogasawara
Islands in Japan this May, I saw about 30 Pacific Golden Plovers well
and many of these had primaries that projected well beyond the tail,
similar to this bird. A few also had shorter tertials creating a
significant primary projection. As far as I could see none showed more
than 3 primaries projecting beyond the tertials. I can't make out the
number of primaries in the pictures of the Danish bird. In late summer
birds, the issue of molting tertials needs to be considered too. I
personally feel that it's not always possible to separate molting adults
of these species in July-Oct.

=20

Nick Lethaby

DSP/BIOS Product Manager

Software Development Systems

Texas Instruments

805 562 5106

nlethaby(AT)ti.com

=20

________________________________

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Andreas Bruun
Kristensen
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:36 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tundraplover identification

=20

Dear all,

=20

Two Tundraplovers have generated a lot of debate in Denmark as to their
identification. They were found near the German border on July 8th (bird
1), and July 9th (bird 2).

I would appreciate any comments to their identification.

=20

Bird 1:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=3Dshowpicture&picture_id=3D6831

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=3Dshowpicture&picture_id=3D6830

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=3Dshowpicture&picture_id=3D6829

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=3Dshowpicture&picture_id=3D6826

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=3Dshowpicture&picture_id=3D6825

=20

Bird 2:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=3Dshowpicture&picture_id=3D6856

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=3Dshowpicture&picture_id=3D6852

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=3Dshowpicture&picture_id=3D6818

=20

Andreas Bruun Kristensen

AnBrKr(AT)yahoo.dk

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Subject: Re: Tundraplover identification
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 14 Jul 2005 5:20am

Dear Andreas,All,
I would echo the preceding statements that some individuals of the 
fulva/dominica group may be very hard/impossible to ID - especially later 
in the fall.
However, these two birds are from early July, and "Tundra Plovers" by 
Byrkjedal and Thompson states that dominica should not be in any kind of 
molt at this time (it starts it body molt in late July at the earliest, 
while P-molt does not start until mid-nov.)  Fulva adults start their body 
molt as early as mid July, but their P-molt can start as soon as late June 
and is usually suspended in August when zero-to-four outer Ps may have been 
replaced.  First Spring fulva also have a summer molt (unlike dominica), 
comprising body and primaries, starting as early as mid-May.
Turning to the first (adult-male-like) bird, On looking closely at the 
full-size pics, I do not see any signs of molt.  in the first pic the 
longer tertials are displaced slightly, exposing a shorter tertial - but if 
you look carefully you can see there are spaced-out white notches extending 
virtually to the tip of the wings - this must be a tertial.  The other pics 
also show these longer tertials in place and reaching almost to the tip of 
the primaries.  Add to this a rather pot-bellied look in all pics, rather 
narrow white lateral breast patches (see especially 2nd pic), fairly large 
pale spots on the upperparts that are whiter on the coverts, and (in the 
flight pics) an apparent clear extension of the feet beyond the tail, I so 
no reason to call this anything other than a Pacific.  Note that the flank 
pattern is well within the range of fulva - "Tundra Plovers" provides an 
illustration of this very effect that would be even less visible in the 
field than on this individual.  The general strength of the head/chest area 
strongly indicates that this is a male bird. There is a thought nowadays (I 
recall Jaramillo discussing it previously here) that these plovers may have 
a rapid post-breeding molt of the breast into a more camouflaged pattern 
that replaces many of the black chest/ breast/flank feathers with 
black-based feathers having white or golden bands at the tip.  I don't know 
if this has been confirmed, but even if so, for this to be a dominica it 
would have had to have replaced only the flank feathers - and for some of 
the replacements to be almost completely white.  "Tundra Plovers" also 
states that comparing bill length to P-extension (= beyond tail) is a very 
strong indicator, with dominica having the bill roughly equal to or greater 
than the P-extension while fulva has the bill roughly equal to or less than 
P-extension.  On some individuals this is equivocal  - but not on this bird!
Surely the most parsimonious conclusion is that this is a perfectly normal 
male fulva in early July, rather than a dominica with so many plumage and 
structural anomalies?
Applying the same features mentioned above, the Second bird (clearly a 
female or first-summer individual - and given the mix of new/old feathers 
in the upperparts, I'd favor the latter) also fits well for fulva:  Even 
though the Ps extend a little more beyond the tail they are clearly much 
shorter than the bill length.  Obviously this would be tricky on a juv that 
may still be growing its Ps, or later on with an adult - but in early July 
only a first-summer fulva should be growing any Ps.  The tertials are a bit 
shorter than on the first bird, but are well within the range shown for 
non-molting fulva.  But look carefully at the longest tertials and you can 
see how fresh they are; these might still be growing and thus not yet 
full-length - and only first-summer fulva could be growing-in new tertials 
in early July.
So I feel that both these rather short-winged birds are Pacifics - but I 
also feel that there are some longer-winged Pacifics that could easily be 
passed-off as Americans.... the ID of this species-pair is sometimes far 
from easy!
Cheers,
Martin

At 7/14/2005 12:35 AM +0200, you wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>Two Tundraplovers have generated a lot of debate in Denmark as to their 
>identification. They were found near the German border on July 8th (bird 
>1), and July 9th (bird 2).
>I would appreciate any comments to their identification.
>
>Bird 1:
><http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6831>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6831
>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6830
><http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6829>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6829
>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6826
><http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6825>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6825
>
>Bird 2:
><http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6856>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6856
>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6852
><http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6818>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6818
>
>Andreas Bruun Kristensen
><mailto:AnBrKr(AT)yahoo.dk>AnBrKr(AT)yahoo.dk
>
>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: 
>http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com 

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Subject: Re: Tundraplover identification - error
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 14 Jul 2005 8:22am

Dear Andreas/All,
Clearly I goofed when writing the statement below in my earlier post:
   "Tundra Plovers" also states that comparing bill length to P-extension 
(= beyond tail) is a very strong indicator, with dominica having the bill 
roughly equal to or greater than the P-extension while fulva has the bill 
roughly equal to or less than P-extension."
  - in fact the reverse is the case, i.e. dominica has the bill SHORTER 
than the P-extension while fulva has the bill LONGER than the P-extension. 
Sorry about the error/confusion...
Cheers,
Martin

At 7/14/2005 12:35 AM +0200, you wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>Two Tundraplovers have generated a lot of debate in Denmark as to their 
>identification. They were found near the German border on July 8th (bird 
>1), and July 9th (bird 2).
>I would appreciate any comments to their identification.
>
>Bird 1:
><http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6831>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6831
>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6830
><http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6829>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6829
>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6826
><http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6825>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6825
>
>Bird 2:
><http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6856>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6856
>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6852
><http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6818>http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6818
>
>Andreas Bruun Kristensen
><mailto:AnBrKr(AT)yahoo.dk>AnBrKr(AT)yahoo.dk
>
>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: 
>http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
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Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com 

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Subject: rail
From: Kent Nickell <mountainpath(AT)gmail.com>
Date: 15 Jul 2005 5:55am

Hi all, I took a few marginal photos yesterday of two rails in a
somewhat small central Iowa pond.  I have them here 
http://www.greenbackedheron.com/id.cfm?setid=1684  The main
considerations appear to be Virginia or King Rail.  The younger bird
has a white cheek patch that I was wondering if that has any special
significance.  The older one looked to me to be more Viginia Rail size
but it was across the pond and my experience with the two species is
limited.   thanks much

-- 
Kent Nickell
Waterloo, Iowa
mountainpath(AT)gmail.com

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Subject: 3 hours with Donald Kroodsma
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 16 Jul 2005 2:28pm

HI:
 This morning I spent about 3 hours with Donald Kroodsma, author of " The
Singing Life of Birds". A group of about 12 birders went on a birdwalk
with him and then he discussed his book. He talked about black-capped
chickadee regional dialects, why the winter and marsh wrens should be
 divided into western and eastern species (in North America), towhee and
song sparrows songs and wood thrush songs. He also talked about the
philosophical/ artistic side of studying bird song. An interesting 3
hours!

-- 
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"

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