B-Mail(sm): ID-FRONTIERS for September 11-17, 2005

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Subject: Help id this Tern
From: Tommy <tfvp(AT)TISCALI.DK>
Date: 11 Sep 2005 12:52pm

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Hi all
On the 4. October 2002,this bird was present on Flores on the Azores,
for more than 2 weeks.
I have tried to make out what it is, Least ore Little Tern.
It is difficult to find pic on the Internet, of Lest/Little Terns in
juv/1cy.
Dos any one have an opinion, what this bird is, I will be glad to hear
from you.
The bird was at now time heard.

 <http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=835>
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=835

 <http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=834>
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=834

 <http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=833>
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=833

 <http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=832>
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=832

 <http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=831>
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=831

Tommy Frandsen
Haldrupvej 20
8700 Horsens
Denmark
+4527127688
+4532597688
www.netfugl.dk

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Subject: Re: Help id this Tern
From: Woundedmallard67(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 11 Sep 2005 3:00pm

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Tommy and all, 
  I have no experience with Least Terns outside of North American  east coast 
range but thought I could offer these photos for perhaps some helpful  
comparison.
_http://www.pbase.com/boidpikchas/least_tern_jv_ 
(http://www.pbase.com/boidpikchas/least_tern_jv) 

  See you out there!

Thomas J. Dunkerton

Titusville, FL
_www.pbase.com/boidpikchas_ (http://www.pbase.com/boidpikchas)   

In a message dated 9/11/2005 3:54:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
tfvp(AT)TISCALI.DK writes:

Hi  all 
On  the 4. October 2002,this bird was present on Flores on the Azores, for 
more  than 2 weeks. 
I  have tried to make out what it is, Least ore Little  Tern. 
It  is difficult to find pic on the Internet, of Lest/Little Terns in  
juv/1cy. 
Dos  any one have an opinion, what this bird is, I will be glad to hear from  
you. 
The  bird was at now time heard. 

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Subject: Jaeger Questions
From: Tim Avery <tanager(AT)TIMAVERYBIRDING.COM>
Date: 11 Sep 2005 5:24pm

On Saturday September 10, Steve and Cindy Sommerfeld discovered what appeard
to be a juvenile Parasitc Jaeger at Willard Bay State Park in Box Elder
County Utah.  This morning the bird was sitll in the same area, but after
watchign it for an hour I was not positive on the ID.  I have ronly seen an
Adult Parasitic and 3 other juvenile birds on a pelagic that I did not ID. 
I have no experience with this species and am curious as to if this bird is
a PArasitic or a Long-tailed.  

The bill points to PAJA, and the wings are intermediate.  The body looks
alot like an intermediate LTJA.  Any information that can be given will be
much appreciated:

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-176.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-031.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-045.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-209.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-117.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-138.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/paja_01.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/paja_02.jpg

Thanks in advance for any info!

Tim Avery
http://www.timaverybirding.com
Salt Lake City, Utah

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Subject: Frigatebird sp. Photographs
From: Paul Cypher <pcypher(AT)GATECOM.COM>
Date: 11 Sep 2005 7:38pm

Good evening, 

This afternoon, a Frigatebird was seen by hawkcounters at Lake Erie Metropark in
 southeast Michigan.

Three photographs have been posted on the Southeastern Michigan Raptor Research
website.

Please go to www.smrr.net.  Click on "Photo Gallery"  then click on the 
"Non- Raptor" link.

As noted in the photo comments, the combination of the overall size (smaller
than a Magnificent Frigatebird), black
body, gray bill and white(basically restricted to wingpits) are not consistent
with a
Magnificent Frigatebird.  More details are coming, but observers are drafting
reports. I was working the camera.

We welcome your thoughts.

Paul Cypher
President
SMRR

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Subject: Re: Jaeger Questions
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 11 Sep 2005 7:39pm

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Hi all:

Again, I feel that this bird is a Long-tailed Jaeger.  No, I'm  positive that 
this bird is a juvenile Long-tailed Jaeger.  It is amazingly  similar to 
Colorado's current Long-tail, pictures of which can be viewed on the  Colorado 
Field Ornithologists' website
(_http://www.cfo-link.org/birding/photos.php_ 
(http://www.cfo-link.org/birding/photos.php) ).

The near lack of strong pale tips/fringes to the primaries, the strong,  
even, and horizontal black-and-white barring on the undertail coverts, and the
strongly white shafts to P9 & P10, with no other shafts of similar paleness  
through most of their length all point to LTJA and away from PAJA.

Also, though it would certainly be possible to have a juv Parasitic  at such 
a latitude at an inland location on the date, I think that LTJA is still  the 
more likely of the two smaller jaegers to show up in such a place so early  in 
the fall.

Sincerely,

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

In a message dated 9/11/2005 6:25:41 PM Mountain Standard Time,  
tanager(AT)TIMAVERYBIRDING.COM writes:

On  Saturday September 10, Steve and Cindy Sommerfeld discovered what  appeard
to be a juvenile Parasitc Jaeger at Willard Bay State Park in Box  Elder
County Utah.  This morning the bird was sitll in the same area,  but after
watchign it for an hour I was not positive on the ID.  I  have ronly seen an
Adult Parasitic and 3 other juvenile birds on a pelagic  that I did not ID. 
I have no experience with this species and am curious  as to if this bird is
a PArasitic or a Long-tailed.  

The bill  points to PAJA, and the wings are intermediate.  The body looks
alot  like an intermediate LTJA.  Any information that can be given will  be
much  appreciated:

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-176.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-031.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-045.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-209.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-117.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/image-138.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/paja_01.jpg

http://www.timaverybirding.com/paja_02.jpg

Thanks  in advance for any info!

Tim  Avery
http://www.timaverybirding.com
Salt Lake City,  Utah

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Subject: Jaeger Update
From: Tim Avery <tanager(AT)TIMAVERYBIRDING.COM>
Date: 11 Sep 2005 9:50pm

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I added some pictures, and also a close up on the head.  Thus far I =
would have to agree with the ID of Long-tailed Jaeger, and Tony =
Leukering. I have received 4 emails calling the bird a LTJA, 2 in favor =
of PAJA.  Please keep the info coming, and take a look at the new pics.

http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/jaeger.html

Good Birding

Tim Avery
http://www.timaverybirding.com
http://www.birdingwyoming.org
Salt Lake City, Utah

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Subject: Re: Frigatebird sp. Photographs
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 6:51am

What was this frigatebird compared with to ascertain it was "smaller than a 
Magnificent Frigatebird"?  Black body, gray bill, and white on the chest 
(which is all I see in these photos) are consistent with subadult male 
Magnificent Frigatebird.

Kevin

At 10:28 PM 9/11/2005, Paul Cypher wrote:
>Good evening,
>
>This afternoon, a Frigatebird was seen by hawkcounters at Lake Erie 
>Metropark in southeast Michigan.
>
>Three photographs have been posted on the Southeastern Michigan Raptor 
>Research website.
>
>Please go to www.smrr.net.  Click on "Photo Gallery"  then click on the
>"Non- Raptor" link.
>
>As noted in the photo comments, the combination of the overall size 
>(smaller than a Magnificent Frigatebird), black
>body, gray bill and white(basically restricted to wingpits) are not 
>consistent with a
>Magnificent Frigatebird.  More details are coming, but observers are 
>drafting reports. I was working the camera.
>
>We welcome your thoughts.
>
>Paul Cypher
>President
>SMRR
>
>
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>
>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Co-editor, New York State Breeding Bird Atlas
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/

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Subject: Re: Jaeger Update - measurement errors
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 7:11am

I don't have anything to say about the jaeger, but I have a comment on the 
measurements posted there.  The (beautiful) photo with the measurement 
units added to it is just about as confusing as can be.  The bill is not 
even close to perpendicular to the camera, but instead is coming out of the 
image to the left, and consequently is significantly foreshortened.  There 
is no useful way to measure the two sections of the bill as indicated.  The 
farther away from the camera the bill goes, the more it gets foreshortened.

Try this yourself with two rulers:  take the first ruler and tilt it away 
from you.  Close one eye and take the other ruler perpendicular to your 
vision (not tilted parallel with the other ruler).  Try to measure from 5 
to 10 centimeters, and then from 0 to 5 centimeters on the tilted ruler.  0 
to 5 will be larger.  The more you angle the ruler away from your vision, 
the larger the front half gets relative to the back half.

I don't know what the measurements of this bird's bill are, but I guarantee 
you it is not 9.5 : 9.0.  Measuring the same area on <jaeg_05.jpg>, which 
looks more perpendicular to the camera, I come up with 10.5 : 14.5, quite a 
different ratio.

Kevin

At 12:51 AM 9/12/2005, Tim Avery wrote:
>I added some pictures, and also a close up on the head.  Thus far I would 
>have to agree with the ID of Long-tailed Jaeger, and Tony Leukering. I 
>have received 4 emails calling the bird a LTJA, 2 in favor of 
>PAJA.  Please keep the info coming, and take a look at the new pics.
>
><http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/jaeger.html>http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/jaeger.html
>
>Good Birding
>
>Tim Avery
><http://www.timaverybirding.com>http://www.timaverybirding.com
>http://www.birdingwyoming.org
>Salt Lake City, Utah
>
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*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Co-editor, New York State Breeding Bird Atlas
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/

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Subject: Re: Jaeger Update
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 7:18am

I took the liberty of making this graphic using Tim's image no. 05 for bill
proportions which I felt was the best one representing bill relative
dimensions with no foreshortening.

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/averyjaeger.jpg

John Idzikowski,
Milwaukee
_____

From: Tim Avery <tanager AT TIMAVERYBIRDING.COM>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:51:23 -0600

I added some pictures, and also a close up on the head. Thus far I would
have
to agree with the ID of Long-tailed Jaeger, and Tony Leukering. I have
received
4 emails calling the bird a LTJA, 2 in favor of PAJA. Please keep the info
coming, and take a look at the new pics.

http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/jaeger.html

Good Birding

Tim Avery

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Subject: Re: Jaeger Update
From: Robert Hughes <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 7:49am

I haven't heard anyone mention this but I think the conspicuous pale 
blaze at the base of the upper mandible of Tim's bird is consistent 
with Parasitic Jaeger of all ages. I don't think Long-tailed Jaeger is 
supposed to show this feature at all. Here's a photo of a juvenile 
Parasitic from Lake Michigan that shows the pale blaze, though you have 
to look hard to see it.

http://www.illinoisbirds.org/parasitic_jaeger.html

Robert Hughes
Chicago, Illinois	
My birding Web site: http://theorniphile.info/
Webmaster: http://illinoisbirds.org/

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Subject: Jaeger update 2
From: Tim Avery <tanager(AT)TIMAVERYBIRDING.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 9:08am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Sorry, about the bad angle I just used the first side shot I had edited =
last night.  I went through my images this morning and found another =
image.  This one is directly from the side, and shows a similar ratio, =
just a bit shorter on the nail than the upper mandible.  Right now, its =
looks like Long-tailed Jaeger is prevailing, about  14 votes to 3 for =
Parastic.  Please take a look at the new bill picture:

http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/jaeger.html

But also at the wing image Jack Binch shot.  It is a little different =
than mine:

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/binch01.jpg

Good Birding

Tim
http://www.timaverybirding.com
http://www.birdingwyoming.org
Salt Lake City, Utah

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Subject: Additional Jaeger Questions
From: "Paul A. Guris" <lists(AT)paulagics.com>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 9:44am

This bird is in my absolute least favorite juv. jaeger plumage, but it looks
more like Parasitic to me.  I always find this plumage to be the hardest, so
I'm going to take the opportunity to tap into some of the knowledge out there
on this list.  I'd particularly like help from some of the West Coasters who
see lots of these birds on these questions.

First, as Robert Hughes pointed out, is the pale blaze on the front.  Wouldn't
that be highly unusual in Long-tailed?

While they aren't bold, the pale primary tips on this bird are complete.  Pale
primary tips can occur in Long-tailed, but when they do aren't they normally
incomplete?

The pale feather edging on the mantle and wing coverts is minimal.  Isn't that
better for Parasitic?

The pale barring on the rump looks almost random and very limited.  Isn't that
better for Parasitic?

The bold dark and light undertail actually looks better for Long-tailed to me.
Would that be unusual for Parasitic?

Look at the length of the body and tail behind the wings and the shape of the
"waist".  Compare Tony's Colorado bird to this bird.  The CO bird looks very
long.  The Utah bird looks markedly shorter and stockier.  Is this just an
effect of the bird's position?  Tony's pics are at:

http://www.cfo-link.org/birding/viewer.php?array=1&pointer=120&PHPSESSID=49b349fdd70c301b60071e751202c446

The black on the bill of Long-taileds often travels further down the cutting
edge than the top of the bill, but that's not the case in the Utah bird.  Is
that meaningful?  To see what I mean, look at these pics:

http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/Long-tailed%20Jaeger%20(ER)-1.jpg
http://www.wildbirdphotos.com/images/birds/longtailedjaeger11-51.jpg
http://www.surfbirds.com/media/Photos/ltjaeger.jpg
http://paulagics.com/display_photo.html?Long-tailed%20Jaeger<Jaeger2-PJ.jpg&Phil%20Jeffrey,%202003

To anybody with the expertise and time to answer these questions, thanks in
advance.

-PAG

Paul A. Guris
See Life Paulagics
P.O. Box 161
Green Lane, PA  18054
www.paulagics.com
215-234-6805
info(AT)paulagics.com

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Subject: Re: Jaeger Update
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 9:59am

I image searched head shots of sub-adult Lt Jaegers. In a sample of 9, I
consistently found the combination of a "stubby bill" along with a rounded
vs. a small, triangular shaped head of Parasitic. I prepared this paste-up
comparison graphic-

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/skuacompare.jpg

Are not the more conservative features such as skull shape and bill
proportions more important than the highly variable plumage characters in
this group?  Shots 11, 14 and binch 01 both show what could easily be
interpreted as up to 4 white shafted primaries as well. Why can't this bird
be a slightly darker Parasitic? The basic color of this bird is still
essentially a dark warm brown, not anywhere as cold grayish as one would
expect for a Lt. Even in those images of darker Lt's approaching the hues of
this bird the lighter belly of a Lt is apparent, not seen on the Utah bird.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Hughes" <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Jaeger Update

> I haven't heard anyone mention this but I think the conspicuous pale
> blaze at the base of the upper mandible of Tim's bird is consistent
> with Parasitic Jaeger of all ages. I don't think Long-tailed Jaeger is
> supposed to show this feature at all. Here's a photo of a juvenile
> Parasitic from Lake Michigan that shows the pale blaze, though you have
> to look hard to see it.
>
> http://www.illinoisbirds.org/parasitic_jaeger.html
>
> Robert Hughes
> Chicago, Illinois
> My birding Web site: http://theorniphile.info/
> Webmaster: http://illinoisbirds.org/
>
>
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Subject: Re: Additional Jaeger Questions
From: julian hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 12:08pm

Given the date, location and general "cold" appearance
of this bird, LTJA would be the most likely candidate,
as Tony L. and others have suggested.

For me, the more I broke it down and looked at it, I
found myself playing devil's advocate and went
backwards and forwards on whether I thought it was
PAJA or LTJA. This was due in some parts to the head
structure, bill and the appearance in some of the
flight photos which impart a "short-ended' look (from
the base of the wings to the base of the tail).
The blurry distant shot seems to be the best, showing
what appears to me to fit LTJA - long, fairly rakish
wings and some obvious central tail projection.

However, based on the literature, there were several
features that don't seem to fit neatly into the
generally accepted criteria. I don't think the bill is
typical of many LTJA that I personally have seen, both
in structure and in the ratio of the dark tip to the
rest of the bill length. When you combine the bill
pattern and shape with the angular head profile, in my
view, the bird appears small-headed and is more in
line with what I would expect for PAJA.
Is it within the range of LTJA, maybe....but
inversely, is it also within the range of PAJA as
well.?

Throw in the pale 'blaze' (is this really comparable
to that shown in PAJA or is it just pale feather bases
showing through???)  and the significant underwing
flash and I found myself doing a double take. 

Of course, color and plumage tones only go so far in
aiding the id. of such birds, and i don't think the
Utah birds colouring, on it's own, helps one way or
the other. 
The "zebra'-like barring on the undertail is good for
LTJA, but the upperpart barring and wing-covert
barring is slightly worn, but still whitish looking,
again more in line with what i would expect from a
LTJA.
The pale tips to the primaries, while indistinct, are
still within the range of LTJA (or so I believe....I
think i remember seeing pictures somewhere..)

These are all my personal perceptions/misperceptions
of what strikes me with juv. jaegers, and of course,
everybody has their own mental image that they match
to. I always hope that  I am comparing the same mental
image to that of others when hoping to come to a
unanimous and correect id.
I think in this instance, this is a good example of a
bird that challenges what the books tell us to look
for with regards to headshape, bill-shape, pattern
etc.
Birds like this, exquisitively photo'd, that allows us
to add variable features to those which we know are
unwavering, and form a bank of experience which allow
us to make future ids.

My final 'gut' opinion on the id. is its a LTJA, but
that's not based on head and bill patterns on this
bird which I feel aren't quite stereotypical of LTJA. 

Looking forward to other opinions..

Julian Hough,
CT, USA

--- "Paul A. Guris" <lists(AT)PAULAGICS.COM> wrote:

> This bird is in my absolute least favorite juv.
> jaeger plumage, but it looks
> more like Parasitic to me.  I always find this
> plumage to be the hardest, so
> I'm going to take the opportunity to tap into some
> of the knowledge out there
> on this list.  I'd particularly like help from some
> of the West Coasters who
> see lots of these birds on these questions.
> 
> 
> First, as Robert Hughes pointed out, is the pale
> blaze on the front.  Wouldn't
> that be highly unusual in Long-tailed?
> 
> 
> While they aren't bold, the pale primary tips on
> this bird are complete.  Pale
> primary tips can occur in Long-tailed, but when they
> do aren't they normally
> incomplete?
> 
> 
> The pale feather edging on the mantle and wing
> coverts is minimal.  Isn't that
> better for Parasitic?
> 
> 
> The pale barring on the rump looks almost random and
> very limited.  Isn't that
> better for Parasitic?
> 
> 
> The bold dark and light undertail actually looks
> better for Long-tailed to me.
> Would that be unusual for Parasitic?
> 
> 
> Look at the length of the body and tail behind the
> wings and the shape of the
> "waist".  Compare Tony's Colorado bird to this bird.
>  The CO bird looks very
> long.  The Utah bird looks markedly shorter and
> stockier.  Is this just an
> effect of the bird's position?  Tony's pics are at:
> 
>
http://www.cfo-link.org/birding/viewer.php?array=1&pointer=120&PHPSESSID=49b349fdd70c301b60071e751202c446
> 
> 
> The black on the bill of Long-taileds often travels
> further down the cutting
> edge than the top of the bill, but that's not the
> case in the Utah bird.  Is
> that meaningful?  To see what I mean, look at these
> pics:
> 
>
http://www.users.fast.net/~becard/Long-tailed%20Jaeger%20(ER)-1.jpg
>
http://www.wildbirdphotos.com/images/birds/longtailedjaeger11-51.jpg
> http://www.surfbirds.com/media/Photos/ltjaeger.jpg
>
http://paulagics.com/display_photo.html?Long-tailed%20Jaeger<Jaeger2-PJ.jpg&Phil%20Jeffrey,%202003
> 
> 
> To anybody with the expertise and time to answer
> these questions, thanks in
> advance.
> 
> 
> -PAG
> 
> Paul A. Guris
> See Life Paulagics
> P.O. Box 161
> Green Lane, PA  18054
> www.paulagics.com
> 215-234-6805
> info(AT)paulagics.com
> 
> 
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>
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> 
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> 

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Subject: Re: Additional Jaeger Questions
From: Robert Hughes <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 1:05pm

Looking at the flight shots, the wings of this bird seem fairly 
broad-based, and the markings on the uppertail coverts look irregular, 
more like spots than bars.  Also, the light bars on the uppertail 
coverts feel warm to me. I'd still vote for a Parasitic on this bird. 
Would it be possible to number the photos so we know what pics we're 
referring to?

Robert Hughes
Chicago, Illinois	
My birding Web site: http://theorniphile.info/
Webmaster: http://illinoisbirds.org/

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Subject: Re: Additional Jaeger Questions
From: "Paul A. Guris" <lists(AT)paulagics.com>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 2:08pm

Looking at the head shots John Idzikowski put up, the pattern on the lower
mandible looks different on the Utah bird than all of the others.  All of the
Long-taileds show the black angling back well into the nostril if not to the
end.  On the Utah bird, the black is much more limited.  In fact, it barely
reaches the beginning of the nostril.

I know that soft parts vary, but I find this bothersome for Long-tailed.

In case you didn't save the e-mails, John's head shot montage is at:
     http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/skuacompare.jpg

You can see the same thing on my site at:

http://paulagics.com/display_photo.html?Long-tailed%20Jaeger<Jaeger1-PJ.jpg&Phil%20Jeffrey,%202003

A very clear head shot of the Utah bird is right at the top of:
     http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/jaeger.html

-PAG

Paul A. Guris
See Life Paulagics
P.O. Box 161
Green Lane, PA  18054
www.paulagics.com
215-234-6805
info(AT)paulagics.com

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Subject: radioactive birds
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 2:54pm

Up to now very little has been published about radioactive contamination of
birds as a result of the explosion in the Ukrainian nuclear powerplant of
Chernobyl on 26th April 1986.
Have a look therefore at:  http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/  and
let us know if you know any other studies and if possible make them
available to us please.
Norman Deans van Swelm

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Subject: American Turnstone in Spain?
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricard__Guti=E9rrez?= <gutarb(AT)TERRA.ES>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 3:18pm

Hello all

My colleague C�sar M. �lvarez La�, from Asturies, N Spain (Atlantic coast),
has sent me three pictures of a Turnstone (Arenaria interpres) which he
feels have red above, not orange, and was photographed in Gij�n (43.32N
05.38W), Spain. Besides this bird, he says he has seen 1st winters with
orange wing coverts. He asks me to forward some pictures and a question to
ID_Frontiers.

The question is about the possibility of telling the holartic ssp
(morinella) from that present in the W Palearctic on the basis of any
diagnosable character (and even perhaps from those pictures?). Therefore,
we'd like to ask you if anybody knows about any reliable field character to
tell those ssp.

Some American authors contacted by C�sar say that those three waders are
very similar to those in their American side of the Atlantic.

Turnstone photos were taken on 2nd May 2005 and can be seen here (direct
link, no html page where the pictures are featured nor any link from the
homepage):

http://www.rarebirdspain.net/arenaria1.jpg
http://www.rarebirdspain.net/arenaria2.jpg
http://www.rarebirdspain.net/arenaria3.jpg

All the best

Ricard Guti�rrez
Rare Birds in Spain
http://www.rarebirdspain.net

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Subject: Jaeger decision
From: Tim Avery <tanager(AT)TIMAVERYBIRDING.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 6:13pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

After a day of people weighing in the debate is dead locked at 12 for =
Long-tailed and 9 for Parasitic.  I thought I would add some more info =
now after talking to folks back channel and posing my reason that I =
believe this is indeed a Long-tailed Jaeger=20

First is the flight pattern which I hadn;t mentioned at all, and I did =
not know much about how these species fly.  What I can say is that in my =
notes I wrote the flight was like a "butterfly".  While the bird was =
being chased by the Falcon he didn't seem to be trying to out run, but =
instead dodging and turning, changing directions at every chance =
possible.  I only saw the bird flying about like this, "tern-like" for =
between 5 and 10 minutes as it was chased by the falcon.  Other than =
that the bird only made short flights.  I was told later that the flight =
of Long-tailed is "tern-like" and the flight of Parasitic is "stronger". =
 Any thoughts?

Second.  This is my theory on the white "flash" on the outerwing on the =
primaries.  The primaries on the bird were the first field mark that =
seemed odd.  Only the outer 2 primaries P10, and P9 have a completely =
white shaft.  On P8 and P7 there appeared to be white at the base of the =
primaries, and was probably due to the feather coloring.  In fact the =
underside of the wing explains this quite readily.  While the base of =
the primaries are white and can be seen across P2 - P10 on the under =
wing, the outside of these feathers are only white at the base and =
cannot be seen readily from above.  However, in the case of the image =
taken by Jack Binch:=20

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/binch01.jpg,=20

we are able to see the white on P6, 7 and 8 at the base of those =
feathers now exposed in flight.  The reasoning behind this is the =
stressed angle of the wing.  The coverts that normally cover this area =
are being pulled upward with the bent wing and the primaries spread out. =
But this still does not explain for Parasitic Jaeger where the shafts of =
the feathers would be white.  If you look at this, in fact the shafts =
are clearly not white, only the base feather coloration.  What appears =
to be lighter coloring along the feather, is simply the grey feather =
color showing with the primaries spread out, against darker edges.  This =
gives the illusion of more white along the primary shafts that really =
isn't there.
This seemingly can explain why in that picture it appears to have 2 full =
white shaft and 2-3 short "white shafts".

Take a look at these pictures again:

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/jaeger_14.jpg
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/jaeger_11.jpg
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/jaeger_12.jpg

3 different angles showing clearly 2 long white shafts, and possibly a =
white base on P8.  This looks like wing for Long-tailed Jaeger.

Third.  The under wing is typical of a Long-tailed Jaeger in almost all =
aspects.  As seen in this picture:=20

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/jaeg_02.jpg

the coverts and the secondaries are completely barred white against the =
grayish feathers of the bird.  The primary feathers with the white bases =
stretch across all the primaries, in a crescent shape coming to a =
slender edge on the inner most primaries.  This in contrast to the =
abrupt, flat edge expected on the under wing of a PAJA due to how far =
the white extends down the primary feathers.  This bird shows white just =
at the bases fading out midway down each primary.

Finally, the barring on the undertail coverts and rump is about as clean =
and crisp as I have ever seen on a bird.  IF you are looking at the =
pictures in focus, you can clearly see bold, and clean barring, not =
messy and faint.

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/jaeg_06.jpg
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/jaeger_12.jpg
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/jaeger_13.jpg

All 3 images show the same barring.

So there are my crazy ideas on this bird, any thoughts?

Good Birding

Tim
http://www.timaverybirding.com
http://www.birdingwyoming.org
Salt Lake City, Utah

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Subject: Frigatebird sp. size details
From: Paul Cypher <pcypher(AT)GATECOM.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 6:28pm

Good evening,

A few people have inquired about the size of the Frigatebird species
photographed at
Lake Erie Metropark in southeast Michigan, as well as the white markings.  I was
taking photographs and could not follow the bird as closely as desired (at one
point, I
was running the oppostie direction.  Buy me a beer sometime and I will explain
how it
happened).

Anyhow, I chatted with one of the observers tonight.  2 things.

Early in the 20+ minutes of observation, the bird passed  within 50 feet or so
of the
observers.  Through bins and scopes,  at no point was white seen on the chest.
Period.  None. No white at all.  Only  the flanks (barely), wingpits, and a
small portion
of the underwing linings.  This was noted by all observers.  The angle of the
photos
may be misleading. Again, no white on the chest or belly.

As the bird moved past the observers, it moved in on some Ring-billed Gulls.
There
was an opportunity for direct comparison.  It was described as being 2 1/2 times
 as
big.  Noting that we are  a hawkwatch, Osprey and Bald Eagles  are seen every
day.
This Frigatebird is being described, not as "Bald Eagle-sized" (what one would 
expect for a Mag.), but rather "Osprey" sized.  

Again, we welcome your comments.  Thanks

Paul Cypher
President
SMRR

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Subject: Re: Jaeger update 2
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 8:31pm

Just catching up on the interesting discussion.

Firmly in Long-tailed camp -

I think the skull shape is fine for L-t. The photo John used for his
composite captured the bird with the crown feathers completely
flattened, and I think might be a bit misleading. In some of the other shots
the head looks fairly rounded and blunt-faced. Most juv L-t do show
more extensive dark on the bill tip, but the bill shape and length seem
fine to me for L-t, and perhaps a bit short-end for Parasitic. It's possible
there's a bit of an optical illusion at work with the flattened crown
feathers making the bill seem proportionately longer than it actually is.
Overall in the composite I'm struck more by the similarities than
by any differences.

In flight side views it shows some chest which is normal for either, but in
frontal and ventral views the body seems much too narrow and compact
side to side for a Parasitic, particularly at the chest and shoulders. Also
I would think Parasitic should appear a bit more lanky compared to a Grine,
- not quite so short-winged and diminutive. The wing base doesn't really
look all that broad to me either, with seemingly normal wing taper for a
L-t.

As others have pointed out the plumage heavily favors L-t, with a few
abnormalities that I see as minor compared to the overall picture.

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc(AT)harborside.com

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Subject: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Tim Avery <tanager(AT)TIMAVERYBIRDING.COM>
Date: 13 Sep 2005 4:10pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

This afternoon at 2:30 I returned to the area where our Jaeger had been, =
and unfortunately found the bird dead in the ruts in the mud.  I =
immediately put the bird on ice and returned to Salt Lake to photograph =
and document the bird.  Anyone want to change there ID of this bird now:

Bill:
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/bill_01.jpg

Primaries from the outer wing:
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/primaries_01.jpg

Body back side:
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_01.jpg

Body under side:
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_02.jpg

Tail:
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/tail_01.jpg

Undertail coverts:
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_tail_coverts_01.jpg

Under wing:
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_Wing_01.jpg

I also took several measurements:

Body Length from tip of bill to tip of tail: 15"
Body Width at chest: 5"
Wing Span from tip to tip: 36"
Tail Tip length from the end of the 2 central feathers to the tips of =
the rest of the tail: 1"
Length of Wing from Elbow to P10 tip: 12.5"
Bill Length fro top of Upper mandible: 1.5"
Nail Length: .75"

Let me know what you think!

Tim
http://www.timaverybirding.com
http://www.birdingwyoming.org
Salt Lake City, Utah

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 13 Sep 2005 4:30pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Even though I erred on the side of LTJA, I really do have doubts now =
based on the new photos. The new shots still confirm my concerns that =
the "short-ended" look to the bird and the head and bill look better for =
PAJA.
I have to say that I could easily be persuaded that this is a PAJA =
rather than a LTJA, especially based on the warmer colouring to the bird =
as well as the central tail.
The central tail feathers don't look like the classic LTJA shape, though =
I know there is some variation in both species.
The head shape and bill shape still don't gel with LTJA. I have always =
wanted to be confident in putting a name to most jaegers I come across, =
and even with some experience, I feel this bird may be humbling to many =
of us that used to feel confident in identifying them.

Sad that the bird passed....

Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net

www.naturescapeimages.net
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Tim Avery=20
  To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:10 PM
  Subject: [BIRDWG01] jaeger carcass discovered

  This afternoon at 2:30 I returned to the area where our Jaeger had =
been, and unfortunately found the bird dead in the ruts in the mud.  I =
immediately put the bird on ice and returned to Salt Lake to photograph =
and document the bird.  Anyone want to change there ID of this bird now:

  Bill:
  http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/bill_01.jpg

  Primaries from the outer wing:
  http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/primaries_01.jpg

  Body back side:
  http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_01.jpg

  Body under side:
  http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_02.jpg

  Tail:
  http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/tail_01.jpg

  Undertail coverts:
  http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_tail_coverts_01.jpg

  Under wing:
  http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_Wing_01.jpg

  I also took several measurements:

  Body Length from tip of bill to tip of tail: 15"
  Body Width at chest: 5"
  Wing Span from tip to tip: 36"
  Tail Tip length from the end of the 2 central feathers to the tips of =
the rest of the tail: 1"
  Length of Wing from Elbow to P10 tip: 12.5"
  Bill Length fro top of Upper mandible: 1.5"
  Nail Length: .75"

  Let me know what you think!

  Tim
  http://www.timaverybirding.com
  http://www.birdingwyoming.org
  Salt Lake City, Utah
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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Mike Patterson <celata(AT)pacifier.com>
Date: 13 Sep 2005 4:52pm

I hate to be a grumpus, but I'd like some standard
measurements please.

I'd like:
 wing chord
 exposed culmen
 culmen to nares
 tail length

And my preference is metric, so I don't have to do the
conversions...

body length and wing span are pretty subjective and it's
really not clear what you mean by "Bill Length fro top of Upper mandible"
or how you measured "Length of Wing from Elbow to P10 tip"

> Tim Avery wrote:
> 
> This afternoon at 2:30 I returned to the area where our Jaeger had been, and
unfortunately
> found the bird dead in the ruts in the mud.  I immediately put the bird on ice
 and
> returned to Salt Lake to photograph and document the bird.  Anyone want to
change there ID
> of this bird now:

> I also took several measurements:
> 
> Body Length from tip of bill to tip of tail: 15"
> Body Width at chest: 5"
> Wing Span from tip to tip: 36"
> Tail Tip length from the end of the 2 central feathers to the tips of the rest
 of the
> tail: 1"
> Length of Wing from Elbow to P10 tip: 12.5"
> Bill Length fro top of Upper mandible: 1.5"
> Nail Length: .75"
> 

-- 
Mike Patterson               
Astoria, OR                    
celata(AT)pacifier.com  

And now for something completely different... Salamanders 
http://www.surfbirds.com/blogs/mbalame/archives/002899.html

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 13 Sep 2005 6:02pm

>Anyone want to change there ID of this bird now:

wait... i meant Parasitic Camp! :)

Humbling yes, and drives home the point about not trusting color
in computer photos, since the underparts and tail covert barring 
give the impression of being cold white in the previous shots on
my monitor.

Presumably this is a small-end Parasitic within the large overlap
zone, and measurements aren't going to add much.

Cheers,

Phil

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Subject: [Fwd: [obol] Re: Juv Am Golden Plover Photos]
From: KACastelein and DJLauten <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 13 Sep 2005 6:10pm

Folks,

Below are links to a juvenile GOLDEN PLOVER photo'd in Coos Bay, Coos 
Cty, Oregon, on 10 Sept 2005.  Long winged for sure, the bird is said to 
be very golden/buffy colored.  Have a look, what do you think?

Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
birdsong(AT)harborside.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [obol] Re: Juv Am Golden Plover Photos
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:53:04 -0700
From: Greg Gillson <greg(AT)thebirdguide.com>
To: OBOL <obol(AT)lists.oregonstate.edu>
References: <000701c5b74a$08cbbd00$6500a8c0@terry>

OBOL,

Barry McKenzie sent me photos Sunday evening of the Coos Bay Golden Plover.
I apologize for taking so long to upload them.

http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/AmGoldPlover%201.jpg

http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/JuvAmGoldPlover%202.jpg

http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/AmGoldPlover%203.jpg

http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/AmGoldPlover%204.jpg

Greg Gillson
The Bird Guide, Inc.
greg(AT)thebirdguide.com
http://thebirdguide.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry McKenzie" <barryterry(AT)comcast.net>
To: <greg(AT)thebirdguide.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 8:28 PM
Subject: Juv Am Golden Plover Photos

Greg-

The attachments are 4 photos of the Am Golden Plover seen 9/10 at the Old
Weyerhauser Pond near Coos Bay.
Thought the OBOL community might be interested.

Once before you taught me how to make the image files smaller...hope it
worked ok this time.

thanks,
Barry McKenzie
Eugene

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 13 Sep 2005 6:24pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

>Anyone want to change there [sic] ID of this bird  now:

I, too, am having some doubts about my original ID of the  bird.  The 
coloration of the pale bits certainly did not look this warm  in the original 
pictures.  However, the bird still has only two  entirely-white primary shafts,
so....

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

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Subject: Re: [Fwd: [obol] Re: Juv Am Golden Plover Photos]
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 13 Sep 2005 6:26pm

typical dominica in my opinion..

thank god it's not a jaeger...

best,

Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net

www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "KACastelein and DJLauten" <birdsong(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:17 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] [Fwd: [obol] Re: Juv Am Golden Plover Photos]

> Folks,
>
> Below are links to a juvenile GOLDEN PLOVER photo'd in Coos Bay, Coos Cty, 
> Oregon, on 10 Sept 2005.  Long winged for sure, the bird is said to be 
> very golden/buffy colored.  Have a look, what do you think?
>
> Dave Lauten
> Bandon OR
> birdsong(AT)harborside.com
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [obol] Re: Juv Am Golden Plover Photos
> Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:53:04 -0700
> From: Greg Gillson <greg(AT)thebirdguide.com>
> To: OBOL <obol(AT)lists.oregonstate.edu>
> References: <000701c5b74a$08cbbd00$6500a8c0@terry>
>
> OBOL,
>
> Barry McKenzie sent me photos Sunday evening of the Coos Bay Golden 
> Plover.
> I apologize for taking so long to upload them.
>
> http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/AmGoldPlover%201.jpg
>
> http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/JuvAmGoldPlover%202.jpg
>
> http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/AmGoldPlover%203.jpg
>
> http://thebirdguide.com/temp_images/AmGoldPlover%204.jpg
>
> Greg Gillson
> The Bird Guide, Inc.
> greg(AT)thebirdguide.com
> http://thebirdguide.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry McKenzie" <barryterry(AT)comcast.net>
> To: <greg(AT)thebirdguide.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 8:28 PM
> Subject: Juv Am Golden Plover Photos
>
>
> Greg-
>
> The attachments are 4 photos of the Am Golden Plover seen 9/10 at the Old
> Weyerhauser Pond near Coos Bay.
> Thought the OBOL community might be interested.
>
> Once before you taught me how to make the image files smaller...hope it
> worked ok this time.
>
> thanks,
> Barry McKenzie
> Eugene
>
>
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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 13 Sep 2005 6:29pm

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When viewing the original shots of this bird while alive I wanted to
call it a Long-tailed Jaeger based on the cold, dark plumage tones and
apparent small bill.  I was bothered by the amount of white at the base
of the primaries and the broad based wings. Photos of the dead bird
reveal better plumage detail.

One year old Long-tailed Jaegers in my experience nearly always have
white shafts on the outer two most primaries only with little or no
other white in the primary bases on the upper side. There are rare
exceptions. The photos of the dead bird clearly show plenty of white in
the webbing of the outer two most primaries and white shafts at the base
of P7 and P8.  This seems extreme for a young Long-tailed Jaeger,
especially a dark morph.

The strong rufous barring in the under and upper tail coverts and a
rufous tinge to the barring on under side of body is unexpected for
Long-tailed Jaeger.

The central tail feathers are not rounded as expected for juvenile
Long-tailed.

The base of the wing in all the photos seems too broad for a
Long-tailed.

Based on my experience this is not a Long-tailed Jaeger. The extent of
white in outer five primaries, the rufous barred upper and under tail
coverts, the pointed central tail feathers and relatively broad based
wings all point to Parasitic Jaeger.  I'd be very surprised if DNA or
measurements confirmed this as a Long-tailed.

Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 13 Sep 2005 6:31pm

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Tony,

I don't think the numberof white primary shafts is too critical...when =
shown by LTJA, two outermost shafts is a nice and convenient =
confirmation, but I have seen several PAJA, especially juv.dark birds =
(and adult birds too, though not sure comparing different ages is useful =
in this instance) that have shown a similar pattern.

Also, some dark/intermediate LTJA can show a surprisingly larger 'flash =
on the upperside which spreads across the bases of the outer three-four =
primaries and thus very similar to PAJA.=20

kudos to Tim for great photos and an interesting thread..

Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net

www.naturescapeimages.net
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM=20
  To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] jaeger carcass discovered

    >Anyone want to change there [sic] ID of this bird now:

    I, too, am having some doubts about my original ID of the bird.  The =
coloration of the pale bits certainly did not look this warm in the =
original pictures.  However, the bird still has only two entirely-white =
primary shafts, so....
    Tony Leukering
    Brighton, CO

    =20
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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: baileydc(AT)PDX.EDU
Date: 13 Sep 2005 6:50pm

Speaking of DNA and measurements, am I correct to assume this bird will be
going
to a natural history museum?

David C. Bailey
Seaside, Oregon

Quoting Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>:

> When viewing the original shots of this bird while alive I wanted to
> call it a Long-tailed Jaeger based on the cold, dark plumage tones and
> apparent small bill.  I was bothered by the amount of white at the base
> of the primaries and the broad based wings. Photos of the dead bird
> reveal better plumage detail.
>
> One year old Long-tailed Jaegers in my experience nearly always have
> white shafts on the outer two most primaries only with little or no
> other white in the primary bases on the upper side. There are rare
> exceptions. The photos of the dead bird clearly show plenty of white in
> the webbing of the outer two most primaries and white shafts at the base
> of P7 and P8.  This seems extreme for a young Long-tailed Jaeger,
> especially a dark morph.
>
> The strong rufous barring in the under and upper tail coverts and a
> rufous tinge to the barring on under side of body is unexpected for
> Long-tailed Jaeger.
>
> The central tail feathers are not rounded as expected for juvenile
> Long-tailed.
>
> The base of the wing in all the photos seems too broad for a
> Long-tailed.
>
> Based on my experience this is not a Long-tailed Jaeger. The extent of
> white in outer five primaries, the rufous barred upper and under tail
> coverts, the pointed central tail feathers and relatively broad based
> wings all point to Parasitic Jaeger.  I'd be very surprised if DNA or
> measurements confirmed this as a Long-tailed.
>
> Bruce Mactavish
> St. John's, Newfoundland
> Canada
> bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
>
> -----
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>
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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Mark Stackhouse <westwings(AT)SISNA.COM>
Date: 13 Sep 2005 7:09pm

I just got home from a Washington Coast tour, with plans to go look for 
the now dead jaeger. Luckily, Tim called me with the news that he found 
it dead just before I was about to head out there. You see, I don't 
have a LTJA for my Utah list (I've seen several PAJA here), and was 
leaning heavily to the LTJA camp based upon the earlier photos. 
However, I wanted to see the bird in person before committing to an 
i.d. Looks more like a PAJA from the latest photos - even the two white 
primary shafts, which I was thinking were the strongest LTJA evidence, 
have morphed into 3, maybe 4 in the closer photos. Most of the other 
things that had looked to me more like LTJA - tail coverts, shape of 
the tail streamers, underwing pattern, cool color, etc., now look more 
PAJA. The head and bill always was a bit problematic for LTJA. The 
proportions of the bird all stretched out look more PAJA-like to me. 
How deceptive photos can be . . .

How about we get back to something easier, like gulls?

P.S. I think Tim's planning on taking it to the Utah Museum of Natural 
History at the University of Utah - I don't know if there's anyone 
there that will be inclined to try to i.d. it with DNA analysis, but 
maybe the measurements will prove more decisive than I would expect - 
there's a lot of overlap between these two species.

Mark Stackhouse
Westwings, Inc.
www.westwings.com
mark(AT)westwings.com
801-487-9453 (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA)
011-52-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico)

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Subject: Golden Plover
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 13 Sep 2005 7:19pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Greetings All

I must disagree with Julian on one point- this bird is rather golden-headed 
for an American Golden-Plover. Interestingly, the lastest Birding had a brief 
note on golden-plover ID referencing a study published in Wader Study Group 
Bulletin 103:42-49. Those authors concluded that the ONLY reliable feature for
ID
for birds not in alternate plumage were the number of exposed primary tips 
and the primary projection beyond the tail. All other features (bill length, 
tarsus length, color) were only supportive. 2-3 primaries=PGP. 4-5 primaries 
(beyond tertials)=AGP. They do worn about birds in active molt messing this up.

Thus this bird is an American GP.

Cheers
Steven Mlodinow

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Subject: RE : jaeger carcass discovered
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <pierre-andre.crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS.FR>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 1:09am

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With measurements in mm , that would be so much easier !=0D

 =0D

The Belgian skuas specialists have identified the birds from the pictures i=
n life as a Pomarine Skua!=0D

 =0D

With the measurement it should be easy to separate at least Pom from Long-t=
ailed.=0D

 =0D

Pierre=0D

 =0D

 =0D

Pierre-Andr=E9 Crochet =0D
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive =0D
1919, route de Mende =0D
34293 Montpellier cedex 5 =0D
France =0D
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 (mobile) =0D
     + 33 4 67 61 32 98 (office) =0D
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38 =0D
pierre-andre.crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs.fr =0D

-----Message d'origine-----=0D
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01@L=
ISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Tim Avery=0D
Envoy=E9 : 14 September 2005 01:11=0D
=C0 : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=0D
Objet : [BIRDWG01] jaeger carcass discovered=0D

 =0D

This afternoon at 2:30 I returned to the area where our Jaeger had been, an=
d unfortunately found the bird dead in the ruts in the mud.  I immediately =
put the bird on ice and returned to Salt Lake to photograph and document th=
e bird.  Anyone want to change there ID of this bird now:=0D

 =0D

Bill:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/bill_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

Primaries from the outer wing:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/primaries_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

Body back side:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

Body under side:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_02.jpg=0D

 =0D

Tail:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/tail_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

Undertail coverts:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_tail_coverts_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

Under wing:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_Wing_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

 =0D

I also took several measurements:=0D

 =0D

Body Length from tip of bill to tip of tail: 15"=0D

Body Width at chest: 5"=0D

Wing Span from tip to tip: 36"=0D

Tail Tip length from the end of the 2 central feathers to the tips of the r=
est of the tail: 1"=0D

Length of Wing from Elbow to P10 tip: 12.5"=0D

Bill Length fro top of Upper mandible: 1.5"=0D

Nail Length: .75"=0D

 =0D

Let me know what you think!=0D

 =0D

Tim=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com=0D
http://www.birdingwyoming.org=0D
Salt Lake City, Utah=0D

-- =0D
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier =0D
-- =0D

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Subject: RE : jaeger carcass discovered
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <pierre-andre.crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS.FR>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 1:22am

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Sorry for having sent the previous message too quickly.=0D

 =0D

The Belgian "skuas gourous" are still split between Parasitic (Artic that i=
s) and Pomarine. Long-tailed is definitely out. That was BEFORE the publica=
tion of the pictures of the dead bird. I'm waiting for the last comments (a=
nd hopefully a consensus) based on the last available pictures and the meas=
urements.=0D

 =0D

Pierre=0D

Pierre-Andr=E9 Crochet =0D
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive =0D
1919, route de Mende =0D
34293 Montpellier cedex 5 =0D
France =0D
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 (mobile) =0D
     + 33 4 67 61 32 98 (office) =0D
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38 =0D
pierre-andre.crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs.fr =0D

-----Message d'origine-----=0D
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01@L=
ISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Tim Avery=0D
Envoy=E9 : 14 September 2005 01:11=0D
=C0 : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=0D
Objet : [BIRDWG01] jaeger carcass discovered=0D

 =0D

This afternoon at 2:30 I returned to the area where our Jaeger had been, an=
d unfortunately found the bird dead in the ruts in the mud.  I immediately =
put the bird on ice and returned to Salt Lake to photograph and document th=
e bird.  Anyone want to change there ID of this bird now:=0D

 =0D

Bill:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/bill_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

Primaries from the outer wing:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/primaries_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

Body back side:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

Body under side:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_02.jpg=0D

 =0D

Tail:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/tail_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

Undertail coverts:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_tail_coverts_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

Under wing:=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_Wing_01.jpg=0D

 =0D

 =0D

I also took several measurements:=0D

 =0D

Body Length from tip of bill to tip of tail: 15"=0D

Body Width at chest: 5"=0D

Wing Span from tip to tip: 36"=0D

Tail Tip length from the end of the 2 central feathers to the tips of the r=
est of the tail: 1"=0D

Length of Wing from Elbow to P10 tip: 12.5"=0D

Bill Length fro top of Upper mandible: 1.5"=0D

Nail Length: .75"=0D

 =0D

Let me know what you think!=0D

 =0D

Tim=0D

http://www.timaverybirding.com=0D
http://www.birdingwyoming.org=0D
Salt Lake City, Utah=0D

-- =0D
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier =0D
-- =0D

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Subject: Re: Golden Plover
From: Mark Stevenson <drbrdr(AT)WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 5:50am

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The article referred to in "Birding" and in Steve's post, Wader Study =
Group=20
Bulletin 103:42-49, is available at:

<http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/stats/adu/wsg/pdf/wsgb-apr2004-golden-plovers=
.pdf>

Mark Stevenson
Tucson, AZ

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Subject: Re: RE : jaeger carcass discovered
From: julian hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 6:55am

Pierre's contention that this may be a Pomarine is
probably initially
surprising, but not unusual, since separating Pom and
Parasitic can be
equally tough. Making the leap from Long-tailed to
Pomarine is a bigger 
pill
to swallow than from Parsitic to Pomarine, which now
seems to be the 
crisis
to consider .
Again, the new medium of viewing photos on a screen vs
a live bird can
definitely be misleading in some instances when
identifications are 
made
using general structure and plumage tone. 
The things that may seem a fit for a small Pom in my
opinion would be 
the
apparent broadness of the wings compared to the length
of the 
'back-end',
the prominent ventral barring, the width (?) of the
central tail 
projections
and overall cold plumage tone.
However, the broadness of the wings is hard to
determine, since in the
"live" flight shots, the wings don't look particularly
broad ?!
The second underwing crescent (on the under primary
coverts), often 
more
noticeable in juv. Poms seems to be inconspicuous in
the dead bird 
shots,
but seems to hint at being present in some of the
flight photos, so I'm 
not
sure if this is helpful at all.

The bill size and gonydeal angle does look small for a
Pom.

I haven't been able to see large numbers of juv.
jaegers recently, so 
it
will be interesting and educational to see what the
Europeans think of 
this
individual with regards to the bird being a Pom.

Also, more pertinent perhaps to separating PAJA and
LTJA, initially the 
eye
in relation to the head and bill of the Utah bird
seemed a little 
small,
another thing that seemed a little off initially for
LTJA, which often 
look
proportionately big-eyed, (similar to the difference
shown by Iceland 
vs
Glaucous Gulls) - what do others think??

As a footnote, it reminds me of a story (urban birding
legend?) I heard 
of a
jaeger being seen on a Monterey trip that circled the
boat three times 
and
was identified each time as one of the three
species.....

--- Pierre-Andr� CROCHET
<pierre-andre.crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS.FR> wrote:

> With measurements in mm , that would be so much
> easier !
> 
>  
> 
> The Belgian skuas specialists have identified the
> birds from the pictures in life as a Pomarine Skua!
> 
>  
> 
> With the measurement it should be easy to separate
> at least Pom from Long-tailed.
> 
>  
> 
> Pierre
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Pierre-Andr� Crochet 
> CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et
> Evolutive 
> 1919, route de Mende 
> 34293 Montpellier cedex 5 
> France 
> tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 (mobile) 
>      + 33 4 67 61 32 98 (office) 
> fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38 
> pierre-andre.crochet(AT)cefe.cnrs.fr 
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field
> Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de
> Tim Avery
> Envoy� : 14 September 2005 01:11
> � : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Objet : [BIRDWG01] jaeger carcass discovered
> 
>  
> 
> This afternoon at 2:30 I returned to the area where
> our Jaeger had been, and unfortunately found the
> bird dead in the ruts in the mud.  I immediately put
> the bird on ice and returned to Salt Lake to
> photograph and document the bird.  Anyone want to
> change there ID of this bird now:
> 
>  
> 
> Bill:
> 
> http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/bill_01.jpg
> 
>  
> 
> Primaries from the outer wing:
> 
>
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/primaries_01.jpg
> 
>  
> 
> Body back side:
> 
> http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_01.jpg
> 
>  
> 
> Body under side:
> 
> http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_02.jpg
> 
>  
> 
> Tail:
> 
> http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/tail_01.jpg
> 
>  
> 
> Undertail coverts:
> 
>
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_tail_coverts_01.jpg
> 
>  
> 
> Under wing:
> 
>
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_Wing_01.jpg
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> I also took several measurements:
> 
>  
> 
> Body Length from tip of bill to tip of tail: 15"
> 
> Body Width at chest: 5"
> 
> Wing Span from tip to tip: 36"
> 
> Tail Tip length from the end of the 2 central
> feathers to the tips of the rest of the tail: 1"
> 
> Length of Wing from Elbow to P10 tip: 12.5"
> 
> Bill Length fro top of Upper mandible: 1.5"
> 
> Nail Length: .75"
> 
>  
> 
> Let me know what you think!
> 
>  
> 
> Tim
> 
> http://www.timaverybirding.com
> http://www.birdingwyoming.org
> Salt Lake City, Utah
> 
> 
> -- 
> passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier 
> -- 
> 
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> 
> Archives:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 
> 
> 
> -- 
> passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: "Paul A. Guris" <lists(AT)paulagics.com>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 8:31am

I had been working on this e-mail prior to the new photos being posted, and the
new pics just enforce what I was thinking.  One thing I find very interesting
is the different impressions from the different monitors.  I always thought the
light undertail bars were buffy, but others saw them as white.  Just shows to
go
ya' why written descriptions have so much value.  (Same for the frigatebird
post.)

Anyway, here are some additional comments:

> Only the outer 2 primaries P10, and P9 have a completely white shaft.

While indicative, is this really diagnostic?  I think people put too
much weight on this mark.  {Later note: I think Bruce already answered this one
very well.}

> The under wing is typical of a Long-tailed Jaeger in almost all
> aspects.  As seen in this picture:
>
> http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/jaeg_02.jpg

Here is a Parasitic in flight that appears to have a similar pattern:
     http://www.birdcall.de/photos/arctic_skua_lr.jpg

Also, look at the second photo at:
     http://www.jkcassady.com/gallery/paja2.htm

This photo seems to show a very similar pattern of barring and white primary
bases as the Utah bird.  Although the underwing looks good for Long-tailed, I
think we need to understand the variability of Parasitic before we can say it
looks bad for that species.

> Finally, the barring on the undertail coverts and rump is about as
> clean and crisp as I have ever seen on a bird.  IF you are looking at
> the pictures in focus, you can clearly see bold, and clean barring,
> not messy and faint.

While I agree that the undertail barring is clean, the barring on the
rump is a mess.  It is very limited and the barring is very jagged and not
straight across at all.  It's also not white or gray, it's buffy.

As to undertail barring, this is the one mark I previously thought was best for
Long-tailed, but I've reconsidered.  The first thing that bothered me is that
the pale color is obviously a buffy tan and not whitish.  This is better for
Parasitic.  If you look at this shot, you can see the obvious difference
between the color of the undertail barring and the barring on the body:
     http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/jaeger_13.jpg

As to clean, bold barring on the undertail being a mark of Long-tailed and not
Parasitic, take a look at these pics:
     http://www.indianaaudubon.org/guide/photopages/CassadyPAJA.htm
     http://www.jkcassady.com/gallery/paja2.htm
     http://www.birdcall.de/photos/arctic_skua_lr.jpg
     http://www.lincsbirdclub.co.uk/rare_birds/arctic_skua.htm

I no longer think this mark is useful, at least not in this plumage.  Of
course,
I may be missing something.

And finally, an apology.  Sorry to a fair-sized chunk of the list out there,
but
is was WAY more fun than gulls!

-PAG

Paul A. Guris
See Life Paulagics
P.O. Box 161
Green Lane, PA  18054
www.paulagics.com
215-234-6805
info(AT)paulagics.com

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 8:33am

Finally, one of these intriguing questions that can actually be 
answered.  I find these votes-only problems educational, but very frustrating.

I do hope that this bird will end up someplace where it can be properly 
prepared as a study skin (preferably with a spread wing) and fully 
measured.  A DNA sample would be good, but probably isn't really necessary 
to assign a species ID.  (If no one in Utah can prepare it, Cornell would 
be happy to give it a home; contact me off list.)

With the bird in hand, Pomarine could be quickly ruled out (or in).  Exact 
measurements would be good, but the bill proportions separate the species 
pretty well.  Ridgway (1919. The Birds of North and Middle America. Vol 
VIII, p. 674) uses bill measurements to key out stercorariidae, and at 
least the Pomarine criterion is pretty robust, as indicated by our small 
series of skins.  The bill of a Pomarine Jaeger is deeper at the base than 
the width at the same point (or, the depth in middle of the bill in the 
middle of the nares is about the same as the width of the bill at the base; 
I find those easier measurements to make).  Both Parasitic and Long-tailed 
have much less deep bills, with the depth at the base not greater than the 
width at the same point (or width at base much greater than depth of the 
bill in the middle of the nares).  With calipers or dividers you don't even 
have to look at the numbers.  Take a measurement of the width at the base 
of the bill  (at the back of the gape) and then compare it to depth at the 
very middle of the bill.  If it is roughly the same, it's a Pomarine.  If 
the width is clearly larger than the depth, it's one of the two smaller birds.

Ridgway separates Long-tailed from Parasitic by comparing the length of the 
"supra-nasal saddle" to the distance "from its anterior end to the tip of 
the maxillary unguis."  This is more or less the measurement we tried 
before on the photographs.  Parasitic is decidedly greater, while 
Long-tailed is not.  I tested this criterion against our skins, and found 
none of them "decided greater."  But, most of the Long-tails did have the 
tip at least several millimeters longer than the base of the bill, while 
the Parasitics were roughly equal.  Note that this measurement was across 
the bill in a diagonal (the hypotenuse of the right triangle, not its base, 
as was measured in the previous photographs).

An actual answer, not just an opinion, will be very helpful.  This has been 
an instructive bird, no matter how it turns out.

Kevin

At 07:10 PM 9/13/2005, Tim Avery wrote:
>This afternoon at 2:30 I returned to the area where our Jaeger had been, 
>and unfortunately found the bird dead in the ruts in the mud.  I 
>immediately put the bird on ice and returned to Salt Lake to photograph 
>and document the bird.  Anyone want to change there ID of this bird now:
>
>Bill:
><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/bill_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/bill_01.jpg
>
>Primaries from the outer wing:
><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/primaries_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/primaries_01.jpg
>
>Body back side:
><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_01.jpg
>
>Body under side:
><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_02.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_02.jpg
>
>Tail:
><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/tail_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/tail_01.jpg
>
>Undertail coverts:
><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_tail_coverts_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_tail_coverts_01.jpg
>
>Under wing:
><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_Wing_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_Wing_01.jpg
>
>
>I also took several measurements:
>
>Body Length from tip of bill to tip of tail: 15"
>Body Width at chest: 5"
>Wing Span from tip to tip: 36"
>Tail Tip length from the end of the 2 central feathers to the tips of the 
>rest of the tail: 1"
>Length of Wing from Elbow to P10 tip: 12.5"
>Bill Length fro top of Upper mandible: 1.5"
>Nail Length: .75"
>
>Let me know what you think!
>
>Tim
><http://www.timaverybirding.com>http://www.timaverybirding.com
>http://www.birdingwyoming.org
>Salt Lake City, Utah
>
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*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Co-editor, New York State Breeding Bird Atlas
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 9:00am

Tim's initial measurement of wing chord at 12.5" = 306 mm (flattened or
natural?) so range it at 300-315 mm, putting this bird right in the middle
of the range reported in KM Olsen's "Skuas" for PAJA juvs and at the very
small end for male juv. Pom.- cut-off for all Poms is >308.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Martin Garner <martin.go(AT)VIRGIN.NET>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 9:07am

At the risk of sounded presumptuous and incurring some wrath given the
amount off detailed discussion that this bird has elicited, I have to say
that from my perspective I have been surprised at the various directions the
discussion has taken. From the outset, I took a quick look at the excellent
photos and focusing on the bill, I considered that the bird appeared to be a
straightforward Parasitic (Arctic) Jaeger. It does not look like the stumpy
half dark bill of a Long-tailed nor the chunky think bill of a Pomarine. The
rest of the plumage I have (honestly) hardly looked at as it seems to fits
fine for dark Parasitic Jaeger. I do not honestly think it I a difficult
bird to identify. I suspect some other European's have had the same thoughts
but been overwhelmed into silence by the amount of discussion.

One other comment is that while Long-tailed does often have only a couple of
outer primaries with white primary shafts, birds with up to 5 (even 6?)
white shafts are known form the UK and in my experience a couple of times.

Sorry if his sounds presumptuous but bird looks like a fairly
straightforward dark Parasitic Jaeger in agreement with others who have come
to
this conclusion and the bill is the easiest clincher in my
opinion from other species. Hope I am not the only one who things in such a
cavalier fashion!

Cheers Martin Garner

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 9:06am

> Pierre's contention that this may be a Pomarine is
> probably initially
> surprising, but not unusual, since separating Pom and
> Parasitic can be
> equally tough. 

Agreed. In the field I have a much tougher time with imm. Parsitic vs 
Pom than with Parasitic vs. L-t.

However I think the bill is short-end for even a Parasitic, and is
very thin. I can't picture it on even a small Pom. 

Also I think it would have to be a REALLY small Pom to look so
narrow-bodied and narrow/short-winged compared to the Peregrine.

Cheers,

Phil

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 9:27am

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 11:33:02 -0400, Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU> wrote:

>Ridgway separates Long-tailed from Parasitic by comparing the length of the 
>"supra-nasal saddle" to the distance "from its anterior end to the tip of 
>the maxillary unguis."  This is more or less the measurement we tried 
>before on the photographs.  Parasitic is decidedly greater, while 
>Long-tailed is not.  I tested this criterion against our skins, and found 
>none of them "decided greater."  But, most of the Long-tails did have the 
>tip at least several millimeters longer than the base of the bill, while 
>the Parasitics were roughly equal.  Note that this measurement was across 
>the bill in a diagonal (the hypotenuse of the right triangle, not its base, 
>as was measured in the previous photographs).

Ridgway's criteria have been widely repeated, but I remembered reading a
critique that called them into question many years ago.  I dug through my
files and found a reprint of a note by Eugene Eisenmann published in The
Linneaean Newsletter, Vol 35, No 8, entitled "Identifying immature
Jaegers."  Eisenmann cited a German paper by H. Walter (1962. J. Orn.
103:166-179) dealing with Parasitic/Long-tailed ID.  

Walters reported, "No mensural character, nor the relative length of nail
to supra-nasal saddle, nor the number of primaries with whitish at base,
can be relied upon for identification of individual specimens; they
represent specific tendencies, subject to so many individual exceptions as
to be unreliable."

Walters concluded that "the one reliable feature for distinguishing first
and second year Long-taileds was their rather rounded tips without
protruding shafts of the rectrices and three outer primaries, while
Parasitics of all ages (as well as Long-taileds in their third year and
later) have pointed tips with somewhat protruding shafts to these
feathers."

Eisenmann further noted, "Many specimens in museums (including the AMNH)
have apparently been identified simply on the basis of the relative length
of nail and supranasal saddle, and some of these are incorrectly named if
one uses Walter's criteria.  For example, I recall one or two specimens
from the Gulf of Panama, identified (in Washington, D.C.) as Long-taileds
because of the relatively short supranasal saddle, which were immature
Parasitics, using Walter's criteria of pointed rectrix tipping with
projecting shafts, supported by coloration."

-- 
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044  jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu 
Fall Birding Classes start Sep 13  http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee  http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Phillip Pickering <philliplc(AT)HARBORSIDE.COM>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 9:45am

No disrespect to Martin, but the bill shape/length look well within the
normal range of variation for Long-tailed to me (O & L photo 121,
O & L ~50% overlap in bill length among juvenile sample, etc.). If
there's something specific measurement-wise about the bill that is
truly diagnostic for Parasitic I'd love to hear it.

I think it's more the elongated frontal skull shape that is making the bill
look long and the head/bill look distinctive for Parasitic - I didn't give
that
enough weight initially, even though it's usually the first thing I look at
:)
Kudos to those that emphasized it.

Cheers,

Phil

>At the risk of sounded presumptuous and incurring some wrath given the
amount off detailed discussion that this bird has elicited, I have to say
that from my perspective I have been surprised at the various directions the
discussion has taken. From the outset, I took a quick look at the excellent
photos and focusing on the bill, I considered that the bird appeared to be a
straightforward Parasitic (Arctic) Jaeger. It does not look like the stumpy
half dark bill of a Long-tailed nor the chunky think bill of a Pomarine.

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Subject: Jaeger digitals
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 10:09am

Re the Utah Jaeger, I asked Tim about his camera settings used at different
times and he replied-

"....in the field it was between 7 - 10 am, in low light, I was shooting
with a  400mm @ F/8  ISO 100 most of the time, but when I had the 1.4x on, I
was shooting at F8, and ISO's of 400, 800 and 1600.  Today the carcass shots
were taken with a 18-55mm lens all at F/2.8 and a 100 ISO."

Some have commented about the apparent coldness of the original field shots'
hues posted by Tim Avery. There is generally a bluer cast on shots taken at
higher ISO settings with digital cameras, something like the effect seen
with the old Kodak Ektachromes and increasing film sensitivity. Compare any
of the shots on the original page looking for warm browns. Note how overcast
was that day, devoid of shadows, increasing the cold cast to the shots; the
darkness of the shots caused by the camera's exposure setting to the lighter
background does not help as well-

http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/jaeger.html

-then look at the shots of the carcass, taken at a low ISO setting, looking
for warm browns-

http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_01.jpg
http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_02.jpg

Would the ID have been as contentious if we had truer colors from low ISO
settings initially? We probably have to factor expectations of blue casts of
varying degrees into many of the digitals we view, in spite of computer
monitor settings of the viewer and especially of the original digital
photographer-editor.

When observers with digital cameras anticipate that flight shot, or most
field shots, except in brilliant sunlight, we generally have to have that
camera ready set on ISO 400, 800 or 1600 if available, sacrificing some
image quality and true color in order to capture motion. Note in this test
shot using shades of brown the blue cast in the ISO 1600 shot as well as the
increased noise vs. the ISO 160 shot. And the camera used for this shot is
better than most for minimizing this blue cast.

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/misc/iso.jpg

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

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Subject: Re: jaeger carcass discovered
From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
Date: 14 Sep 2005 10:12am

Unfortunately, Parasitic's wing chord measurements just overlap with the 
other two species.  Also, just how the wing chord is measured matters.  If 
the wing is measured flattened (in the European fashion; not the chord but 
the arc), it's longer.  Also, if the wing is slightly or greatly extended 
the measurement is longer than if the wing is completely furled (the 
preferred museum method in this country).  Those few millimeters would 
matter for these species.

Kevin

At 12:13 PM 9/14/2005, Clay Taylor wrote:
>Kevin et al -
>
>    What about Wing Chord measurement?   That one nicely separates most 
> raptors, and I hope that PAJA and LTJA should have different wing lengths 
> / proportions.
>
>Clay Taylor
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin McGowan" <kjm2(AT)CORNELL.EDU>
>To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:33 AM
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] jaeger carcass discovered
>
>
>>Finally, one of these intriguing questions that can actually be answered. 
>>I find these votes-only problems educational, but very frustrating.
>>
>>I do hope that this bird will end up someplace where it can be properly 
>>prepared as a study skin (preferably with a spread wing) and fully 
>>measured.  A DNA sample would be good, but probably isn't really 
>>necessary to assign a species ID.  (If no one in Utah can prepare it, 
>>Cornell would be happy to give it a home; contact me off list.)
>>
>>With the bird in hand, Pomarine could be quickly ruled out (or 
>>in).  Exact measurements would be good, but the bill proportions separate 
>>the species pretty well.  Ridgway (1919. The Birds of North and Middle 
>>America. Vol VIII, p. 674) uses bill measurements to key out 
>>stercorariidae, and at least the Pomarine criterion is pretty robust, as 
>>indicated by our small series of skins.  The bill of a Pomarine Jaeger is 
>>deeper at the base than the width at the same point (or, the depth in 
>>middle of the bill in the middle of the nares is about the same as the 
>>width of the bill at the base; I find those easier measurements to 
>>make).  Both Parasitic and Long-tailed have much less deep bills, with 
>>the depth at the base not greater than the width at the same point (or 
>>width at base much greater than depth of the bill in the middle of the 
>>nares).  With calipers or dividers you don't even have to look at the 
>>numbers.  Take a measurement of the width at the base of the bill  (at 
>>the back of the gape) and then compare it to depth at the very middle of 
>>the bill.  If it is roughly the same, it's a Pomarine.  If the width is 
>>clearly larger than the depth, it's one of the two smaller birds.
>>
>>Ridgway separates Long-tailed from Parasitic by comparing the length of 
>>the "supra-nasal saddle" to the distance "from its anterior end to the 
>>tip of the maxillary unguis."  This is more or less the measurement we 
>>tried before on the photographs.  Parasitic is decidedly greater, while 
>>Long-tailed is not.  I tested this criterion against our skins, and found 
>>none of them "decided greater."  But, most of the Long-tails did have the 
>>tip at least several millimeters longer than the base of the bill, while 
>>the Parasitics were roughly equal.  Note that this measurement was across 
>>the bill in a diagonal (the hypotenuse of the right triangle, not its 
>>base, as was measured in the previous photographs).
>>
>>An actual answer, not just an opinion, will be very helpful.  This has 
>>been an instructive bird, no matter how it turns out.
>>
>>Kevin
>>
>>
>>At 07:10 PM 9/13/2005, Tim Avery wrote:
>>>This afternoon at 2:30 I returned to the area where our Jaeger had been, 
>>>and unfortunately found the bird dead in the ruts in the mud.  I 
>>>immediately put the bird on ice and returned to Salt Lake to photograph 
>>>and document the bird.  Anyone want to change there ID of this bird now:
>>>
>>>Bill:
>>><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/bill_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/bill_01.jpg
>>>
>>>Primaries from the outer wing:
>>><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/primaries_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/primaries_01.jpg
>>>
>>>Body back side:
>>><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_01.jpg
>>>
>>>Body under side:
>>><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_02.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/skin_02.jpg
>>>
>>>Tail:
>>><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/tail_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/tail_01.jpg
>>>
>>>Undertail coverts:
>>><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_tail_coverts_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_tail_coverts_01.jpg
>>>
>>>Under wing:
>>><http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_Wing_01.jpg>http://www.timaverybirding.com/jaeger/under_Wing_01.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>I also took several measurements:
>>>
>>>Body Length from tip of bill to tip of tail: 15"
>>>Body Width at chest: 5"
>>>Wing Span from tip to tip: 36"
>>>Tail Tip length from the end of the 2 central feathers to the tips of 
>>>the rest of the tail: 1"
>>>Length of Wing from Elbow to P10 tip: 12.5"
>>>Bill Length fro top of Upper mandible: 1.5"
>>>Nail Length: .75"
>>>
>>>Let me know what you think!
>>>
>>>Tim
>>><http://www.timaverybirding.com>http://www.timaverybirding.com
>>>http://www.birdingwyoming.org
>>>Salt Lake City, Utah
>>>
>>>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: 
>>>http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>>*****************************************************
>>Kevin J. McGowan
>>Co-editor, New York State Breeding Bird Atlas
>>Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
>>159 Sapsucker Woods Road
>>Ithaca, NY 14850
>>607/254-2432
>>fax 607/254-2111
>>kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
>>http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/
>>
>>
>>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: 
>>http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>>
>>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

*****************************************************
Kevin J. McGowan
Co-editor, New York State Breeding Bird Atlas
Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/254-2432
fax 607/254-2111
kjm2(AT)cornell.edu
http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/

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Subject: Flycatcher ID-Central Florida
From: Woundedmallard67(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 15 Sep 2005 7:03am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Hey Everybirdy, 

  I had identified this bird as an Eastern Wood-Pewee on some local  
listservs accompanied by a couple of photos.  I did not hear the bird at  all,
so I
can only go by sight.
  I had been asked by a fellow local birder if I had or would consider  a 
possible "empid" species, noting the length of tail and boldness of the wing  
bars.
  I have very little experience with empids and relying on reference  
material has it's limitations.
  I have 6 photos on this gallery which I hope can be enough to  determine 
identification by those more experienced than me.  Any insight  would be most 
appreciated.  Thank you for your time.

        _http://www.pbase.com/boidpikchas/flycatcher_id_ 
(http://www.pbase.com/boidpikchas/flycatcher_id) 

  See you out there!

Thomas J. Dunkerton

Titusville, FL
_www.pbase.com/boidpikchas_ (http://www.pbase.com/boidpikchas)  

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Subject: Re: Flycatcher ID-Central Florida
From: Robert Hughes <rhughes.enteract(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 15 Sep 2005 7:37am

I don't think this bird is a Wood-Pewee. It has too much of an eyering, 
not enough primary projection, and plain, unmarked undertail coverts. 
I'd say it's a Willow/Alder Flycatcher, and based on the fairly 
conspicuous eyering and strong greenish cast to the upperparts an 
Alder.

Robert Hughes
Chicago, Illinois	
My birding Web site: http://theorniphile.info/
Webmaster: http://illinoisbirds.org/

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Subject: Re: Flycatcher ID-Central Florida
From: Gary l Felton <gljeinwv(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 15 Sep 2005 4:53pm

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Thomas:

Looks like an Acadian Flycatcher to me.

Gary Felton
Kingwood, WV 

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:03:35 EDT Woundedmallard67(AT)AOL.COM writes:
Hey Everybirdy, 

  I had identified this bird as an Eastern Wood-Pewee on some local
listservs accompanied by a couple of photos.  I did not hear the bird at
all, so I can only go by sight.
  I had been asked by a fellow local birder if I had or would consider a
possible "empid" species, noting the length of tail and boldness of the
wing bars.
  I have very little experience with empids and relying on reference
material has it's limitations.
  I have 6 photos on this gallery which I hope can be enough to determine
identification by those more experienced than me.  Any insight would be
most appreciated.  Thank you for your time.
        http://www.pbase.com/boidpikchas/flycatcher_id

  See you out there!

Thomas J. Dunkerton
Titusville, FL
www.pbase.com/boidpikchas 
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Subject: Iceland, Thayer's and Ivory Gulls
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron(AT)SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 15 Sep 2005 7:10pm

I thought that gull enthusiasts would like to see photographs of nominate 
Iceland Gulls and Thayer's Gulls from the breeding grounds. In August I was 
one of the leaders on a Quest Nature Tours voyage to the west coast of 
Greenland and across Baffin Bay to Nunavut in Canada. In Greenland I 
photographed Iceland Gulls of the nominate subspecies. The Icelands were 
often with Glaucous Gulls and not always easy to separate, particularly in 
flight. Crossing Baffin Bay from Greenland to Canada we saw about 130 adult 
Ivory Gulls in association with Polar Bears, which were feeding on seals on 
the pack ice. On Devon Island in Nunavut, I photographed a small nesting 
colony of cliff nesting Thayer's Gulls. This location is well within the 
geographical breeding range of Thayer's Gull.

Photos of nominate Iceland and Thayer's 
Gulls  http://jeaniron.ca/Trips/arctic/arctic3.htm

Photos of adult Ivory Gulls and molting Northern 
Fulmars  http://jeaniron.ca/Trips/arctic/arctic2.htm
Jean Iron
www.jeaniron.ca
9 Lichen Place
Toronto ON  M3A 1X3
416-445-9297

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Subject: Cinnamont Teal Age/Sex
From: marina sobolevskaya <msobolevskaya(AT)MSN.COM>
Date: 15 Sep 2005 7:17pm

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All,

Last week two Cinnamon Teal were discovered in a retention pond in =
Alachua FL. One is clearly a drake in eclipse plumage and the other was =
first assumed a hen. After seeing these birds and reviewing my photos I =
noticed that the "hen" is very warm colored. Upon closer examination I =
found that It also has some Cinnamon feathers coming in on the sides and =
belly. Can someone assist on the age and sex of the bird. Is this a HY =
bird with an AHY/ASY bird? I can forward my pictures to anyone who =
wishes to take a look.

Thanks to all who respond.

Alex Vinokur
Casselberry, FL

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Subject: Tennessee Skua
From: OLCOOT1(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 16 Sep 2005 11:42am

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Interested Parties,

On August 30, after the passage of Katrina over Pickwick Lake in southwest  
Tennessee, there was a fallout of birds, Skimmer, Magnificent Frigatebird,  
Band-rumped Storm-Petrel, many gulls and terns. The appearance of a large all  
dark bird was the most amazing and at first the question of Pomarine Jaeger  or
species of Catharacta was address. It is now pretty much settled  that it was 
a skua with South Polar being the one most are leaning towards. I'm  still 
waiting for a couple of skua experts to review the original photos sent to
them.
The photos were taken at a great distance and under adverse  conditions. You 
may still view the photos at: 

_http://www.pbase.com/ol_coot/pomarineskua_ 
(http://www.pbase.com/ol_coot/pomarineskua)    

As ever it is evident that two people can look at the same photo, look at  
the same feature but have completely opposite opinions. I have received  quite a
few comments on the bird, many just saying "I think it is such and  such" but 
here I'm listing some of the more informed comments. I  have had a few to 
write they had an opinion but would wait to see what  others are saying? So now
you have nothing to hold you back;o)

Here is a listing of comments in order received but without names  attached.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 1. "That is a SoPoSkua!  As you may know I led  pelagic trips
off so Cal for many years, and have seen hundreds of  them.
The structure is to my eye absolutely SKUA!"  

2. It looks like an all dark Pomarine Jaeger from these  image....... I 
wish they were a bit better!  We see quite few of these  completely 
dark birds off the SE coast of Australia.  They often cause  confusion 
with South Polar Skua.  I think that the images do not show  the tail 
shape of Catharacta but rather that of Pomarine Jaeger.  The  bill 
appears not to be heavy enough and the body not bulky enough for a  
Catharacta, even maccormicki. 

3. Based on my impression of shape alone this bird looks  like a Skua.  The 
head and tail projection are nearly identical, if  anything the tail is 
shorter, and the bird is large billed.  The wings are  very broad-based, but
long,
and the shape of the hands is dead on for  Skua.  I think the shape and position
of the white primary patch is right  for Skua and wrong for Pom.  I think you 
would have seen paler primary  coverts on a Pom, and the flash would be more 
diffuse and not this  concentrated.  The body is classic Skua.  I also think 
you would have  noticed some barring on the undertail and uppertail coverts if 
this were a  Pom. 

4. (1). This bird looks too bulky to be a Jaeger, even  though both birds are
listed as the same size, the SP Skua is a much bulkier  bird.  
(2).  This bird appears to have the heavier bill of a  Skua
(3). The white on the base of the primaries is much more distinct in a  skua
than in the jaeger.  This bird shows that distinct white base to  the
primaries, on both upper and lower wing surface.
(4). The photo with  the spread tail shows the distinct wedge shaped tail of a
Skua.  I do  not believe that the Jaeger's "wedge" tail is this wide.

(5). From looking at the series of photos you have posted, I would say  
without a doubt that you have a Great Skua. I've had a great deal of experience 
with Skuas in the field, and from all of the photos this is the conclusion I  
would come to.

6. It's hard to be certain from these photos, but the bird  appears to me to 
be more likely a Skua.  I concur with the comments about  the color and 
overall shape.  One fieldmark not discussed in your comments,  is that the bird
looks somewhat full chested/throated, particularly in photos 56  and 57.  It's 
sort of a "bully" appearance (which well matches it  personality) which is much
more suggestive of Skua than the more sleek  Jaegers.

7. Most definitely not a Pomarine!! I've observed and  handled Pomarines. 
This bird is heavier, larger, and the shape is not Pomarine.  Length and size 
ratio of tail to wings is wrong, color is wrong. Methinks you  have a Skua!

8. I have little to say about what species of skua it  would be (but, to me 
it doesn't look unlike one of the lighter forms of South  Polar).  However, 
having seen 100s upon 100s of jaegers, particularly Poms,  I am positive that 
this bird is no Pom.  It's white basal-primary flash is  skua-shaped, not 
jaeger-shaped.  It does not have a white band formed by  bases of the primary 
coverts, as is typical of Pom.  It's body is either  too pale (particularly
evenly
pale) or too dark for a Pom.  It's tail is  too short.  Finally, since if a 
jaeger it would have to be an adult  (there are no juvenal-type underwing
coverts
apparent), then the lack of black  on the crown and the typical adult jaeger 
face pattern is a death knell to any  suggestion of a jaeger identification.

9. Thanks for posting the Skua pics - a most interesting  bird.  Just the 
first pic I opened screamed "SKUA" to me, and looking at  all the others did not
change that first impression... yet as you alluded-to, in  a few pics it looks 
much more slender in the wing, body and also longer-tailed -  something I 
think can occur at particular angles.  While the overall  impression is of a 
SPSK, the rather dark face is more GRSK-like, and I'll need  to do more research
to rule out a palish GRSK (they certainly do occur.)

10. I spent a month in Antarctica several years ago.   Looks like a skua, 
however I consulted my "Collins Birds of Southern South  America and 
Antarctica".  Here is the description:

Bill and legs  black.  Upperparts dark brown.  Neck ochreous.  Head and  
underparts sandy brown.  Wings dark with contrasting white patch near  
the tip.  Brown rounded tail.  Nests in Antarctica, sharing snow  free 
areas with other colonial nesters which become skua food.

11. Your bird is definitely a skua  based on structure and plumage features. 
The identification to species is  trickier as the photos do not give much 
resolution. However the contrast between  a pale body and a dark underwing is 
typical of the paler versions of South Polar  Skua, and not something I see in 
other skua species (they tend to look  unicolored). My experience is mainly with
Chilean and South Polar Skuas (I see  them ever year- Chile and California), 
as well as with Brown Skuas (studied them  closely during a single trip to 
their range). 

12. After  looking at your photo gallery, there's no doubt in my mind it's a 
skua.   The question is which one?  As between Great and South Polar, South 
Polar  seems the more likely candidate based purely on the bill size and shape 
(seems  way too long and narrow for Great).  However, given the warm brown 
color,  and the recent UK records of Brown Skua, as well as the compelling 
evidence of  other southern hemisphere taxa off NC, we need to consider those
taxa as
 well.

13. Structurally this is a Catharacta but I am not sure if  the photos are 
good enough to identify the species. 

14. A) I would never contradict Jon Dunn. B) I also  believe this is a 
Skua--heavier than Pomarine--wing shape not right for a  jaeger. C) See A). 

15. I was on a recent pelagic in Monterey Bay where we had  some excellent 
views of South Polar Skua, and so I offer the photos taken by  Jeff Poklen for 
comparison. Here is the link to Jeff's picture: 
_http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/48649229_
(http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/48649229)
The body  shape is too barrel-like for a jaeger; I vote for South Polar Skua. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks for your thoughts and I'll post again after more opinions are  
received.......

Good  Birding!!!

Jeff R. Wilson
OL'COOT / TLBA
Bartlett,  TN

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Subject: Colorado juv. Jaeger ID
From: Rachel Hopper <r-hopper(AT)comcast.net>
Date: 17 Sep 2005 1:05pm

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A juv. jaeger was discovered by Glenn Walbek on 9/14/2005 at Cherry =
Creek Res. in Colorado. It was photographed by Tony Leukering on that =
date and by Glenn on the 15th. There has been some discussion about the =
ID...with most feeling it is a Pomarine. Due to the early date for an =
inland juv. POJA, opinions are welcomed. You can see the photos on the =
CFO website at: http://cfo-link.org/jaeger.html
-----------------------
Rachel Hopper
Ft. Collins, CO
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Subject: Re: Colorado juv. Jaeger ID
From: greatgrayowl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 17 Sep 2005 5:34pm

Hi all:

I am, of course, in the Pomarine Jaeger camp, as I made the original 
identification as that species, citing many features, chief among them 
the extensive second white patch on the underwing formed by the white 
bases to the primary coverts, the wide and blunt R1s, and the underwing 
being paler than the body.  This despite a relatively firm belief that 
juv Pomarine just wasn't a possibility in mid-Sept in CO.  In fact, for 
a quite some time while watching the bird, I was absolutely convinced 
that it was a juv Parasitic -- the rarest of the three jaegers in CO.

However, I'm writing primarily to say that I'm currently vacationing in 
Cape May and had cause to discuss the bird with Michael O'Brien who 
pointed out the underside wingtip pattern of dark and light being 
classicly Pomarine and different from that of Long-tailed.  
Additionally, my field notes are quite specific in the extensive and 
quite tawny fringes to most upperparts feathers, which also rules out 
Long-tailed.

Enjoy,

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

-----Original Message-----
From: Rachel Hopper <r-hopper(AT)COMCAST.NET>
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent:         Sat, 17 Sep 2005 14:05:51 -0600
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Colorado juv. Jaeger ID

      A�juv. jaeger was discovered by Glenn Walbek on 9/14/2005 at 
Cherry Creek Res. in Colorado. It was photographed by Tony Leukering on 
that date and by Glenn on the 15th. There has been some discussion 
about the ID...with most feeling it is a Pomarine. Due to the early 
date for an inland juv. POJA, opinions are welcomed. You can see the 
photos on the CFO website at: http://cfo-link.org/jaeger.html
-----------------------
Rachel Hopper
Ft. Collins, CO
Visit the CFO website at: www.cfo-link.org
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The Virtual Birder

ID-FRONTIERS for September 11-17, 2005

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The Virtual Birder

ID-FRONTIERS for September 11-17, 2005

Send feedback on these pages to: BMail@greatblue.com B-Mail Message Content Disclaimer Layout Copyright © 1999-2001 Great Blue Media Works Last Updated: Friday, November 2, 2007 11:40am MT

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