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ID-FRONTIERS for December 1-9, 2006
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Re: Sexing Short-eared Owls in the field | Sandra Keller | Fri, 1 Dec 2006 | 5:53pm |
| Re: Sexing Short-eared Owls in the field | Jeff Bouton | Mon, 4 Dec 2006 | 6:11am |
| Re: Sexing Short-eared Owls in the field | Barb Beck | Tue, 5 Dec 2006 | 12:43am |
| | sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM | Wed, 6 Dec 2006 | 4:17pm |
| smithonianus or something else? | Norman D.van Swelm | Thu, 7 Dec 2006 | 3:09pm |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Dick Newell | Thu, 7 Dec 2006 | 4:36pm |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Norman D.van Swelm | Thu, 7 Dec 2006 | 6:25pm |
| Indiana Black-chinnned Hummingbird | Tim Avery | Fri, 8 Dec 2006 | 3:31pm |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Norman D.van Swelm | Fri, 8 Dec 2006 | 6:59pm |
| Another female hummingbird mystery | =?windows-1252?Q?Joh | Sat, 9 Dec 2006 | 12:43am |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Dick Newell | Sat, 9 Dec 2006 | 2:33am |
| Re: Another female hummingbird mystery | Allen Chartier | Sat, 9 Dec 2006 | 7:13am |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Tim Vaughan | Sat, 9 Dec 2006 | 11:18am |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Norman D.van Swelm | Sat, 9 Dec 2006 | 5:58pm |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Alvaro Jaramillo | Sat, 9 Dec 2006 | 6:17pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Sexing Short-eared Owls in the field
From: Sandra Keller <sandrakeller(AT)VERIZON.NET>
Date: 1 Dec 2006 5:53pm
Hello,
I didn't notice any list response to Wayne's query
and since I too am interested in this, thought I would
ask the list also. Some other birders and myself had
an extremely pale Short-eared Owl Thursday - 11-30
at Jake's Landing, Cape May County, NJ. We had
concluded male at the time. I had consulted some other
references at home this morning besides the Sibley Guide.
In brief - Pyle states that "Reliable sexing only should be
attempted with experience and, even then, intermediates
(up to 50%) are not reliably sexed......), page 95.
And Johnsgard in North American Owls "sexes alike,
but the males generally paler than females".
My questions are how reliably can I sex the Short-eared
Owls that I see close? What is the range of coloration on
the underparts and underwing coverts that I can reliably use?
Can I only reliably sex a male if I see the very pale ones?
I am also interested in any studies done in the NE on migrants
and sex ratios involved and available online. Thank you.
Sandra Keller
Barrington, NJ
sandrakeller(AT)verizon.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne C. Weber" <contopus(AT)TELUS.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 5:42 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sexing Short-eared Owls in the field
> Bird ID People,
>
> The Sibley Guide to Birds indicates that, in Short-eared Owls,
> adult males average considerably paler on the underparts and
> under the wings than females. Does anyone know whether these
> differences are sufficient to reliably sex individuals in the field, or
> is this just an "on average" difference with considerable overlap?
>
> David, I know that you monitor this group, so if you have time to
> respond, your comments would be particularly welcome.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Wayne C. Weber
> Delta, BC
> contopus(AT)telus.net
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Sexing Short-eared Owls in the field
From: Jeff Bouton <jbouton2(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 4 Dec 2006 6:11am
Sandra,
I think Pyle's statement says it all. Short-eared Owl males (like Barn Owls
and perhaps Burrowing Owls and others) average paler than females, but
because there is a wide range of variation and likely overlap in the
extremes of these groups I suspect this is only useful when you see a mated
pair together or perhaps at the very extreme ends of the spectrum. So
reliable seperation in the field is really not possible in most situations.
This pattern is also notable in Snowy Owls, but I think even in this more
obvious situation only the two extremes (the near pure white adult males and
the extremely dark immature females with heavy dark barring right up to
throat) are only safely sexed in the field. Immature males and adult females
can overlap in many features even in the hand. I'd liken this perhaps to
sexing buteos or eagles by comparative size. On the home range when a pair
is together one can easily seperate the larger female from the smaller male,
but when you only see one or the other it is near impossible and subjective
at best.
I don't believe it is wise to go around believing you can seperate male from
female owls in the field unless you are on the breeding grounds and are
infinitely familiar with the range of variation within the specific local
populations. I'd suggest to effectively make calls like this one would have
to spend a lot of time looking for regional variations in plumage as well.
When I see a Barn Owl that is pure white across the breast, I may still
suggest this is likely a male because..., but wouldn't feel comfortable
pushing it to a definite because I've had my head handed to me too many
times! Like the time I captured and banded a large female Osprey in Cape May
with a pure white breast, for example. That's one of the problems with
today's birding, vs. birding of old perhaps (e.g. shotgun birding or
banding), we can make a definitive statement that this is "X" but it is
often impossible for anyone to give us the humility we perhaps deserve when
it flies off and there is no skin or measurements to confirm or disprove our
claim! ;)
Good birding all,
Jeff Bouton
Port Charlotte, FL
jbouton2(AT)earthlink.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Keller" <sandrakeller(AT)VERIZON.NET>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sexing Short-eared Owls in the field
> Hello,
> I didn't notice any list response to Wayne's query
> and since I too am interested in this, thought I would
> ask the list also. Some other birders and myself had
> an extremely pale Short-eared Owl Thursday - 11-30
> at Jake's Landing, Cape May County, NJ. We had
> concluded male at the time. I had consulted some other
> references at home this morning besides the Sibley Guide.
> In brief - Pyle states that "Reliable sexing only should be
> attempted with experience and, even then, intermediates
> (up to 50%) are not reliably sexed......), page 95.
> And Johnsgard in North American Owls "sexes alike,
> but the males generally paler than females".
> My questions are how reliably can I sex the Short-eared
> Owls that I see close? What is the range of coloration on
> the underparts and underwing coverts that I can reliably use?
> Can I only reliably sex a male if I see the very pale ones?
> I am also interested in any studies done in the NE on migrants
> and sex ratios involved and available online. Thank you.
>
>
> Sandra Keller
> Barrington, NJ
> sandrakeller(AT)verizon.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wayne C. Weber" <contopus(AT)TELUS.NET>
> To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 5:42 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sexing Short-eared Owls in the field
>
>
> > Bird ID People,
> >
> > The Sibley Guide to Birds indicates that, in Short-eared Owls,
> > adult males average considerably paler on the underparts and
> > under the wings than females. Does anyone know whether these
> > differences are sufficient to reliably sex individuals in the field, or
> > is this just an "on average" difference with considerable overlap?
> >
> > David, I know that you monitor this group, so if you have time to
> > respond, your comments would be particularly welcome.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Wayne C. Weber
> > Delta, BC
> > contopus(AT)telus.net
> >
> >
> > Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
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> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
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>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Sexing Short-eared Owls in the field
From: Barb Beck <barb(AT)BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM>
Date: 5 Dec 2006 12:43am
Female Snowy Owls when very old can be essentially all white. A dead
banded almost completely white female ws turned in to Fish and
Wildlife a few years ago. Age as I remember was 17 years. So
although in any age class the males are usually much lighter than the
females, color is not a safe bet either except for first year birds
which can be pretty easily aged in the field. Both sexes get lighter as
they get older. The gals are usually considerably larger.
Barb Beck
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jeff Bouton wrote:
> Sandra,
>
> I think Pyle's statement says it all. Short-eared Owl males (like Barn Owls
> and perhaps Burrowing Owls and others) average paler than females, but
> because there is a wide range of variation and likely overlap in the
> extremes of these groups I suspect this is only useful when you see a mated
> pair together or perhaps at the very extreme ends of the spectrum. So
> reliable seperation in the field is really not possible in most situations.
> This pattern is also notable in Snowy Owls, but I think even in this more
> obvious situation only the two extremes (the near pure white adult males and
> the extremely dark immature females with heavy dark barring right up to
> throat) are only safely sexed in the field. Immature males and adult females
> can overlap in many features even in the hand. I'd liken this perhaps to
> sexing buteos or eagles by comparative size. On the home range when a pair
> is together one can easily seperate the larger female from the smaller male,
> but when you only see one or the other it is near impossible and subjective
> at best.
>
> I don't believe it is wise to go around believing you can seperate male from
> female owls in the field unless you are on the breeding grounds and are
> infinitely familiar with the range of variation within the specific local
> populations. I'd suggest to effectively make calls like this one would have
> to spend a lot of time looking for regional variations in plumage as well.
> When I see a Barn Owl that is pure white across the breast, I may still
> suggest this is likely a male because..., but wouldn't feel comfortable
> pushing it to a definite because I've had my head handed to me too many
> times! Like the time I captured and banded a large female Osprey in Cape May
> with a pure white breast, for example. That's one of the problems with
> today's birding, vs. birding of old perhaps (e.g. shotgun birding or
> banding), we can make a definitive statement that this is "X" but it is
> often impossible for anyone to give us the humility we perhaps deserve when
> it flies off and there is no skin or measurements to confirm or disprove our
> claim! ;)
>
> Good birding all,
>
> Jeff Bouton
> Port Charlotte, FL
> jbouton2(AT)earthlink.net
>
>
>
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject:
From: sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 6 Dec 2006 4:17pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings All
Dennis Paulson pointed out to me just recently that Clark's Grebes typically
have a bit of red (or orange-red) at the base of the bill and an orange to red
line of bare skin connecting bill to eye. Westerns lack this color at the base
of the bill and, if present, the line connecting bill to eye is duller colored.
I looked at a number of photos on line and was impressed by how well these marks
worked. Most (but not all) Clark's had a bright orange-red at base of lower
mandible, whereas no Westerns showed this. Many (most?) Westerns were duller
colored at base of bill than more distally. Most Clark's had a bright
yellow-orange to orange-red line connecting base of bill to eye. A few lacked a
line. None had a dull colored line. Many Westerns either lacked this line of
bare skin (or it wasn't apparent against the dark feathering in the lores). In
those Westerns in which this line was present, the line was a dull yellow.
There were a few intriguing birds that I judged most likely hybrids, such as the
bird at the URL below.
Anyway, a couple potentially useful field marks for birds well seen when ID
might otherwise be in question.
http://www.naturescapes.net/portfolios/pics/userpics/10199/Western%20Grebe.jpg
Cheers
Steven Mlodinow
Everett WA
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free
AOL Mail and more.
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----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: smithonianus or something else?
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 7 Dec 2006 3:09pm
On 20th November 2006 Visa Rauste (Visa.Rauste(AT)Helsinki.FI, tel
+358-9-19144146) asked the members of the ID Frontiers list to have a look
and to comment on a first-winter gull he photographed in Finland (Northern
Europe) the week before, in particular from people familiar with
smithsonianus and (preferably) argentatus Herring Gulls, see:
http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/jussi2.html
http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/jussi3.html
I haven't seen any response to Visa, perhaps I missed it but
on 4th December 2006 I came across a similarly looking gull,
in the Port of Rotterdam, The Netherlands. See for pictures:
http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/
Norman Deans van Swelm
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 7 Dec 2006 4:36pm
Norman,
Although it is counter-intuitive, it is not that uncommon for 2nd generation
tail feathers on a European Herring Gull to appear totally black, though
contrasting with rather white upper tail coverts and rump. Maybe 25-30% of
2nd winter/basic EHG's are like this. Therefore EHG genes are capable of
producing an all black tail, so it is not really that surprising to me if,
now and then, a tail like this appears on a 1st winter bird. Certainly older
gulls can demonstrate plumages apparently incompatible with their real age.
My own view is that these birds do not show sufficient evidence to satisfy
me that they are smithsonianus, and the above is the best explanation that I
can invent as to why this variation might appear in a 1st winter EHG. In any
case, both Visas gull and yours show a fair amount of barring at the bases
of the outer tail-feathers, within the variation of smithsonianus, but not
as supportive as one would like in a vagrant.
Dick
Cambridge, UK
On 7/12/06 22:09, "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL> wrote:
> On 20th November 2006 Visa Rauste (Visa.Rauste(AT)Helsinki.FI, tel
> +358-9-19144146) asked the members of the ID Frontiers list to have a look
> and to comment on a first-winter gull he photographed in Finland (Northern
> Europe) the week before, in particular from people familiar with
> smithsonianus and (preferably) argentatus Herring Gulls, see:
> http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/jussi2.html
>
> http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/jussi3.html
>
> I haven't seen any response to Visa, perhaps I missed it but
> on 4th December 2006 I came across a similarly looking gull,
> in the Port of Rotterdam, The Netherlands. See for pictures:
>
> http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/
>
> Norman Deans van Swelm
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 7 Dec 2006 6:25pm
Thank you,Dick!
Do you have any particular EHG in mind?
Still, I would love to hear from people on the other side of the pond if
they see birds like the ones Visa and I found. Moreover if they see birds
with the type of mantle my bird has. Furthermore it struck me that my bird
seemed rather small, not bigger than say an Iceland Gull.
All the best, Norman
Dick Newell wrote: > Although it is counter-intuitive, it is not that
uncommon for 2nd generation
> tail feathers on a European Herring Gull to appear totally black, though
> contrasting with rather white upper tail coverts and rump. Maybe 25-30% of
> 2nd winter/basic EHG's are like this. Therefore EHG genes are capable of
> producing an all black tail, so it is not really that surprising to me if,
> now and then, a tail like this appears on a 1st winter bird. Certainly
> older
> gulls can demonstrate plumages apparently incompatible with their real
> age.
> My own view is that these birds do not show sufficient evidence to satisfy
> me that they are smithsonianus, and the above is the best explanation that
> I
> can invent as to why this variation might appear in a 1st winter EHG. In
> any
> case, both Visas gull and yours show a fair amount of barring at the bases
> of the outer tail-feathers, within the variation of smithsonianus, but not
> as supportive as one would like in a vagrant.<
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Subject: Indiana Black-chinnned Hummingbird
From: Tim Avery <tanager(AT)TIMAVERYBIRDING.COM>
Date: 8 Dec 2006 3:31pm
This was posted on the IN-Bird list this afternoon. Would be a 1st state
record
if accepted. Any expert opinions I can pass on to the locals?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
A BLACK-CHINNED HUMMINGBIRD is coming to a feeder in Princeton, Gibson
County. (See link at the very end for directions.) The bird has been
present since October 29. It was seen again early on Friday morning,
Dec. 8. It is a female; probably an adult. I found out about this
bird soon after it arrived and it was banded a month ago. But, it was
identified as a Ruby-throated Hummingbird during the banding process.
Photos taken by the homeowner subsequent to the banding aroused
suspicion about the ID. Gary and Lisa Bowman obtained additional
photos of the bird on December 3. A few hummingbird banders weighed in
with their strong opinions that the bird was a Black-chinned. I
visited the home on December 5 with Gary Bowman and Larry Peavler to
view the bird. We were fortunate to have the original bander return to
recapture the bird so we could obtain in-hand looks and photos. But,
the bird did not make an appearance. It also was not seen on December
6. Then, the bird returned on December 7. Larry Peavler and I made
the trip again and were rewarded with a number of looks of the bird.
We are confident this is a Black-chinned Hummingbird.
Obviously, the ID of this bird is difficult. Female Ruby-throats and
Black-chinneds can look very similar. The bird can be identified in
the field but you need to know what to look for. See this website for
some helpful info: http://staff.jccc.edu/dseibel/rthu.htm. Here are
some of the most important things to look for:
OVERALL COLOR - this bird is duller green on the back than a RTHU. The
forecrown is also dull with a grayish appearance. See photo at
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2236744050073230284ltUsZf
TAIL PUMPING - the bird does not perch when feeding. So, this allows
time to watch the constant tail pumping when hovering. BCHU actively
tail pump when hovering while RTHU do not pump as frequently.
BILL LENGTH - the bill is longer than a RTHU. The bill was measured at
20.2mm which is within range of BCHU but getting outside the range of
RTHU. It is noticeably longer but you have to have experience looking
at RTHU bills to really get this field mark. See photo mentioned under
Overall Color.
P10 - All hummingbirds have 10 primary feathers. They are numbered
starting with the innermost feather primary. The outermost feather is
P10. This feather is a different shape bewteen BCHU and RTHU. This
field mark is the gold standard of telling the species apart. See
p.299 in the big Sibley for an illustration of the differences in P10
compared to P9. BCHU have a P10 that is as broad as P9 and has a
rounded end. RTHU has a P10 that is narrower than P9 and has a
pointed/tapered end. Careful observation of the bird in the field when
perched (with a scope) will allow you to see this key field mark. A
BCHU has a wing with more curvature to it near the end than a RTHU. A
number of photos of the bird show the outer primaries to be more curved
than what a RTHU would show. There are also differences in the
outerweb shape of P10 between the two species. But, you are unlikely
to see this in the field. Photos help with this field mark and a photo
by the homeowner shows an outerweb consistent with BCHU. See photo at
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2418114270073230284VtBhXt
and
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2267133500073230284nDdrdV (Look
at the wing on the OPPOSITE side of the bird. P10 is clearly broad and
rounded eliminating RTHU.)
Not a convincing field mark but of interest is that the bird is molting
its primary feathers. The innermost primaries (P1-P6) have molted so
they are black. The inner primaries will look dinky on both BCHU and
RTHU compared to the outer primaries. This is a key field mark for
Archilochus. The remaining primaries (p7-P10) have not yet molted so
they are brown. See the photo link below to see the stark contrast in
color. RTHU molt their primaries on the wintering grounds or
(apparently) towards spring if they winter in the US. So, this tends
to support the BCHU ID (although I need more info. on this).
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2181551510073230284FrWjim
All of these field marks taken together add up to a BCHU. If accepted,
this represents a first state record. And, I must say from a personal
standpoint it is a very exciting #350 for my Indiana list.
All photos taken of the bird so far are at:
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/556245265mDLcqK
The best photos were taken by Lisa Bowman but the homeowner got a few
good flight shots. My photos on the last page help isolate P10 and P9.
The homeowners hosted an adult male Rufous Hummingbird for just 11
days in 2005. This bird picked up and migrated to Owensboro, KY where
it was recaptured by Brainard Palmer-Ball a few days later. It quickly
left KY and has not been heard from since. So, these lucky people have
had three species of hummers in the last year.
Directions and details are available at:
http://www.dongorney.com/bchu.htm
GOOD LUCK.
I have delayed notifying the birding community at large by about a half
day as a courtesy to the homeowners who were going to be away from home
Friday morning. Also, the bander will be attempting a recapture around
midday and it is probably best not to have too many people present.
Now, go for it!
Don Gorney
Indianapolis, IN
dongorney AT yahoo.com
www.dongorney.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers,
Tim
Indianapolis, IN and Salt Lake City, UT
tanager(AT)timaverybirding.com
http://www.timaverybirding.com
http://www.birdtography.com
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Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 8 Dec 2006 6:59pm
Hi Richards and others!
A lot of what you say is verifiable and true. However never change the rules
when the game is still on. We have managed to get a very modest set of
characteristics that enable us to say that American Herring Gulls have
definitely landed in Europe, one of them being the dark tail so typical of
1st year gulls from America! And while asking more questions than answering
them what do you and Dick come up with when you see a young Herring Gull
with an American type tail: Hybrid smithsonianus X argentatus!? Without even
providing a beginning of evidence! Just imagine what will happen if people
take what you say for granted? Any American or Canadian who comes across a
gull with a tail like the birds Visa and I found, and I tell you there may
be hundreds, instantly phones the nearest birdline he can find crying: 'Come
quick I found a European hybrid!'
Gulls are no ducks guys, they not just jump on and off the bandwagon and
think their genes are in safe hands! Pair formation in gulls is a lot more
complicated than that and I am far from convinced that the cases that we
know off in Europe were all a 100% natural affair. Mike Harris did an
interesting experiment in the sixties on the Welsh island of Skomer
(publ.long ago in Bird Study). He swapped clutches from Herring Gulls and
Lesser Black-backed Gulls. The result was that LBBG chicks raised and
imprinted by Herring Gulls paired up with Herring Gulls when adult and
raised hybrid chicks and the same happened with Herring Gull chicks raised
by LBBG's! Years ago I ringed (banded!) some chicks from a brood of
Mediterranean Gulls L.melanocephalus in the middle of a large colony of
Common Gulls L.canus. Anyone of you who has ever been in Common Gull colony
knows that is a deafening experience which can give you a headache for the
rest of the day! One of the Med chicks turned out to be a male. For years I
have seen him trying to join displaying Common Gulls and while he recognized
them, their calls and rituals as he had been imprinted by them while a chick
they would have none of his avances! On the other hand a Ring-billed Gull
L.delawarensis just flying by was allowed to join display parties any time
he tried but he more or less followed the same rituals as the Common Gulls
did and I have ever since been convinced Commons and Ring-bills are closely
related. Still this case did not result in a mixed pair raising chicks that
I am aware of. Among the first LBBG's that settled in The Netherlands around
1930 there was at least a mixed pair with a Herring Gull, it is believed to
have been formed by a lone LBBG settling in while the species was expanding
it's range. Similarly I explained the mixed pairs with Yellow-legged Gulls
we found in the eighties and nineties as to the expansion of the
Yellow-legged's range. Despite the hybrid pairs theYellow-legged Gull has
not really settled in The Netherlands after all these years, the LBBG
however definitely has and is now more numerous than Herring Gulls in some
colonies. Occasionally, though in fact very rarely, mixed pairs between LBBG
and Herring Gull are found and one at least raised chicks this year.
All cases of hybridization between fuscus and argenteus took place in
colonies with a lot of disturbance from egg-collectors and I am not at all
sure therefore that hybridization in these instances was spontaneous. Over
the years I have found many instances in the Port of Rotterdam colonies
where workers on building locations had to remove gull nests and as they
felt sorry for the gulls simply dumped the eggs in the nearest nest they
could find and so unwittingly repeating Mike Harris' experiments though be
it in a less organised way! This does not mean that mixed gull pairs cannot
evolve naturally but I am convinced it is very, very rare and it takes more
than a lonely wandering gull far from home. As for the case of smithonianus
and argenteus you must remember that although they look alike when adult,
genetically they have no recent relationship at all and perhaps by now they
are even different species!
So Richard and Dick your speculation on hybridization may be true but find
proof first and in the mean time don't spoil our fun, after all, life of a
gullwatcher is complicated enough as it is!
Cheers, Norman
Richard Millington wrote: > Just another bit of sideways guessing, which I'm
sure may already have been
> thrown in the hat some while back.
>
> It is pretty much safe to say that true smithsonianus occurs regularly in
> western Europe, ie multiple records every year. Furthermore, it is highy
> likely this has been going on for decades or more.
> However, the majority of records are rather SW (S/W Ireland down to
> Portugal and Azores).
> More importantly, the vast majority are first-winters.
>
> Some of these birds stay for the first few years of their life (eg in W
> Ireland). Others may also do so, but are not picked up as they are in less
> well-watched places. Plus as they mature and get tricky to pick out .
>
> Then what happens? Do they return to North America? Do they, as adults
> (like a particular Ring-billed) commute between Europe and Canada? Or, as
> is surely likely, do some move up to Scandinavia (as in the 'parallel
> migration' of waders).
>
> In the latter scenario, the more adult they become, the less they become
> identifiable (like, not at alll...), plus the less further south they may
> venture in winter. This combination will render them (to all intents and
> purposes)invisible; adults will simply 'melt' into the populataion.
>
> Their hybrid babies, however, will get spotted; they will look like
> pseudo-smiths in a Herring body, and they will turn up along the route of
> the Euro-Herring migration (where pure vagrant smiths is at best very
> rare), and not the far SW (where pure vagrants are more likely).
>
> [Obviously a similar (but differently oriented) scenario applies to Vega
> Gull in N Europe, but the difficulty there is they can't really be told
> from our Herrings at any age, so that is a no-go area. Funnily enough,
> some juvenile vegae can look a little like 'Euro-end' smiths...]
>
> Okay, a lot of maybes thrown in there, but it works for me:
> Hybrid smithsonianus X argengatus is my guess.<
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Subject: Another female hummingbird mystery
From: =?windows-1252?Q?John_Mariani?= <jmariani(AT)GT.RR.COM>
Date: 9 Dec 2006 12:43am
I've got a female Archilochus-type hummingbird coming to the feeders at my
home in SE Texas. I'm uncertain about this one and would welcome any
analysis or opinions of this bird's identity. The photos and some comments
are posted at http://redknot.blogspot.com/
Thanks in advance for any help with the I.D. - John Mariani
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Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 9 Dec 2006 2:33am
Norman,
1. I did not mention anything about hybridisation, but I think Richard makes
a good point.
2. I do not follow your reasoning at all that a hybrid is unlikely, given
Liebers mtDNA work which showed that all large gull populations are an
incredible mixture of mtDNA, to the extent that you cannot uniquely identify
one of these gulls from its mtDNA. In fact, the European Herring Gull was
the most mixed up of all, having its roots in both primordial gull
populations - so much for monophyly. If the mtDNA is all mixed up then the
nuclear DNA must be also, which neatly explains one of the reasons for the
high degree of variability of these gulls. Hybridisation is at its highest
level when a rare species enters the range of another - they are desperate.
By coincidence we have recently had a substantial influx of Caspian Gulls,
some of them bearing Polish rings from a mixed colony of argentatus,
michahellis and cachinnans. Together with these birds are a number which
look very much like hybrids, including this bird:
http://cambsbirdclub.blogspot.com/2006/12/caspian-gull_05.html
Which, although I have labelled it as a cach, I am putatively guessing is
cach x mich: the coverts look more mich than cach and the leg colour is odd.
I am hoping that the ringers can confirm or refute my suspicions.
Now, knowing you Norman, you will carry on grasping at every morsel that you
can find to prove that your bird is a smith, but, for me, I would want a lot
more pro-smith features to be convinced, including even more black in the
tail, maybe (at least a hint of) a bi-coloured bill, a smoother chocolate
appearance to the under-parts to name a few.
Would you call this a smith?:
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=517 [the links on this page
seem to have disappeared]
Dick
Cambridge, UK
On 9/12/06 01:59, "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL> wrote:
> Hi Richards and others!
> A lot of what you say is verifiable and true. However never change the rules
> when the game is still on. We have managed to get a very modest set of
> characteristics that enable us to say that American Herring Gulls have
> definitely landed in Europe, one of them being the dark tail so typical of
> 1st year gulls from America! And while asking more questions than answering
> them what do you and Dick come up with when you see a young Herring Gull
> with an American type tail: Hybrid smithsonianus X argentatus!? Without even
> providing a beginning of evidence! Just imagine what will happen if people
> take what you say for granted? Any American or Canadian who comes across a
> gull with a tail like the birds Visa and I found, and I tell you there may
> be hundreds, instantly phones the nearest birdline he can find crying: 'Come
> quick I found a European hybrid!'
> Gulls are no ducks guys, they not just jump on and off the bandwagon and
> think their genes are in safe hands! Pair formation in gulls is a lot more
> complicated than that and I am far from convinced that the cases that we
> know off in Europe were all a 100% natural affair. Mike Harris did an
> interesting experiment in the sixties on the Welsh island of Skomer
> (publ.long ago in Bird Study). He swapped clutches from Herring Gulls and
> Lesser Black-backed Gulls. The result was that LBBG chicks raised and
> imprinted by Herring Gulls paired up with Herring Gulls when adult and
> raised hybrid chicks and the same happened with Herring Gull chicks raised
> by LBBG's! Years ago I ringed (banded!) some chicks from a brood of
> Mediterranean Gulls L.melanocephalus in the middle of a large colony of
> Common Gulls L.canus. Anyone of you who has ever been in Common Gull colony
> knows that is a deafening experience which can give you a headache for the
> rest of the day! One of the Med chicks turned out to be a male. For years I
> have seen him trying to join displaying Common Gulls and while he recognized
> them, their calls and rituals as he had been imprinted by them while a chick
> they would have none of his avances! On the other hand a Ring-billed Gull
> L.delawarensis just flying by was allowed to join display parties any time
> he tried but he more or less followed the same rituals as the Common Gulls
> did and I have ever since been convinced Commons and Ring-bills are closely
> related. Still this case did not result in a mixed pair raising chicks that
> I am aware of. Among the first LBBG's that settled in The Netherlands around
> 1930 there was at least a mixed pair with a Herring Gull, it is believed to
> have been formed by a lone LBBG settling in while the species was expanding
> it's range. Similarly I explained the mixed pairs with Yellow-legged Gulls
> we found in the eighties and nineties as to the expansion of the
> Yellow-legged's range. Despite the hybrid pairs theYellow-legged Gull has
> not really settled in The Netherlands after all these years, the LBBG
> however definitely has and is now more numerous than Herring Gulls in some
> colonies. Occasionally, though in fact very rarely, mixed pairs between LBBG
> and Herring Gull are found and one at least raised chicks this year.
> All cases of hybridization between fuscus and argenteus took place in
> colonies with a lot of disturbance from egg-collectors and I am not at all
> sure therefore that hybridization in these instances was spontaneous. Over
> the years I have found many instances in the Port of Rotterdam colonies
> where workers on building locations had to remove gull nests and as they
> felt sorry for the gulls simply dumped the eggs in the nearest nest they
> could find and so unwittingly repeating Mike Harris' experiments though be
> it in a less organised way! This does not mean that mixed gull pairs cannot
> evolve naturally but I am convinced it is very, very rare and it takes more
> than a lonely wandering gull far from home. As for the case of smithonianus
> and argenteus you must remember that although they look alike when adult,
> genetically they have no recent relationship at all and perhaps by now they
> are even different species!
> So Richard and Dick your speculation on hybridization may be true but find
> proof first and in the mean time don't spoil our fun, after all, life of a
> gullwatcher is complicated enough as it is!
> Cheers, Norman
>
> Richard Millington wrote: > Just another bit of sideways guessing, which I'm
> sure may already have been
>> thrown in the hat some while back.
>>
>> It is pretty much safe to say that true smithsonianus occurs regularly in
>> western Europe, ie multiple records every year. Furthermore, it is highy
>> likely this has been going on for decades or more.
>> However, the majority of records are rather SW (S/W Ireland down to
>> Portugal and Azores).
>> More importantly, the vast majority are first-winters.
>>
>> Some of these birds stay for the first few years of their life (eg in W
>> Ireland). Others may also do so, but are not picked up as they are in less
>> well-watched places. Plus as they mature and get tricky to pick out .
>>
>> Then what happens? Do they return to North America? Do they, as adults
>> (like a particular Ring-billed) commute between Europe and Canada? Or, as
>> is surely likely, do some move up to Scandinavia (as in the 'parallel
>> migration' of waders).
>>
>> In the latter scenario, the more adult they become, the less they become
>> identifiable (like, not at alll...), plus the less further south they may
>> venture in winter. This combination will render them (to all intents and
>> purposes)invisible; adults will simply 'melt' into the populataion.
>>
>> Their hybrid babies, however, will get spotted; they will look like
>> pseudo-smiths in a Herring body, and they will turn up along the route of
>> the Euro-Herring migration (where pure vagrant smiths is at best very
>> rare), and not the far SW (where pure vagrants are more likely).
>>
>> [Obviously a similar (but differently oriented) scenario applies to Vega
>> Gull in N Europe, but the difficulty there is they can't really be told
>> from our Herrings at any age, so that is a no-go area. Funnily enough,
>> some juvenile vegae can look a little like 'Euro-end' smiths...]
>>
>> Okay, a lot of maybes thrown in there, but it works for me:
>> Hybrid smithsonianus X argengatus is my guess.<
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Another female hummingbird mystery
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 9 Dec 2006 7:13am
John,
The bottom two of your four photos clearly show the blunt-tipped and curved
shape of the tenth primary (p10) that is diagnostic for Black-chinned
Hummingbird. Your top two photos show a spotted throat pattern that may
suggest the bird is an immature male, while the bottom two photos appear to
show a bird with a clear white throat, but this may be due to the slight
over-exposure of these two images.
Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI 48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet
===============================================
Every day, the hummingbird eats its own weight in food.
You may wonder how it weighs the food. It doesn't.
It just eats another hummingbird.
---Steven Wright
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mariani" <jmariani(AT)GT.RR.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 2:43 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Another female hummingbird mystery
I've got a female Archilochus-type hummingbird coming to the feeders at my
home in SE Texas. I'm uncertain about this one and would welcome any
analysis or opinions of this bird's identity. The photos and some comments
are posted at http://redknot.blogspot.com/
Thanks in advance for any help with the I.D. - John Mariani
Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: Tim Vaughan <timvaughan(AT)TALK21.COM>
Date: 9 Dec 2006 11:18am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all,
I believe that the Herring Gulls being discussed are L.a.argentatus rather
than L.a.smithsonianus but this is speculative. In recent years such birds have
been seen and photographed in Denmark, France, Germany and elsewhere. Each has
never quite showed the full suite of ‘typical’ smithsonianus characters. At one
time (given the variation in genuine Smithsonainus) I believed such birds to be
from across the Atlantic but the more one learns about variation in European
Herring Gulls (assumed to be argentatus) the more inclined I am to be
suspicious.
I think that ID features are still emerging and fully support the approach of
caution until we know more. However, Richard’s suggestion of hybrid is certainly
interesting and I like the theory that smithsonianus could be breeding in
colonies of Herring Gulls in Europe. I just would like some evidence to convince
me to believe in this.
I would go as far as to try and quantify this. Here at Seaforth in the UK,
only three of twelve juv/1stW Smithsonianus-like birds (over 12 years) has
perhaps shown the full suite of characters. One of the three is formally
accepted. Some of the others may have been smithsonianus but I personally
believe that several were northern argentatus.
On the recent Dutch and Finnish birds I would say; almost but not quite…..but
who knows !
Best wishes for winter gullwatching,
Tim Vaughan
Seaforth, UK
Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK> wrote: Norman,
1. I did not mention anything about hybridisation, but I think Richard makes
a good point.
2. I do not follow your reasoning at all that a hybrid is unlikely, given
Liebers mtDNA work which showed that all large gull populations are an
incredible mixture of mtDNA, to the extent that you cannot uniquely identify
one of these gulls from its mtDNA. In fact, the European Herring Gull was
the most mixed up of all, having its roots in both primordial gull
populations - so much for monophyly. If the mtDNA is all mixed up then the
nuclear DNA must be also, which neatly explains one of the reasons for the
high degree of variability of these gulls. Hybridisation is at its highest
level when a rare species enters the range of another - they are desperate.
By coincidence we have recently had a substantial influx of Caspian Gulls,
some of them bearing Polish rings from a mixed colony of argentatus,
michahellis and cachinnans. Together with these birds are a number which
look very much like hybrids, including this bird:
http://cambsbirdclub.blogspot.com/2006/12/caspian-gull_05.html
Which, although I have labelled it as a cach, I am putatively guessing is
cach x mich: the coverts look more mich than cach and the leg colour is odd.
I am hoping that the ringers can confirm or refute my suspicions.
Now, knowing you Norman, you will carry on grasping at every morsel that you
can find to prove that your bird is a smith, but, for me, I would want a lot
more pro-smith features to be convinced, including even more black in the
tail, maybe (at least a hint of) a bi-coloured bill, a smoother chocolate
appearance to the under-parts to name a few.
Would you call this a smith?:
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=517 [the links on this page
seem to have disappeared]
Dick
Cambridge, UK
On 9/12/06 01:59, "Norman D.van Swelm" wrote:
> Hi Richards and others!
> A lot of what you say is verifiable and true. However never change the rules
> when the game is still on. We have managed to get a very modest set of
> characteristics that enable us to say that American Herring Gulls have
> definitely landed in Europe, one of them being the dark tail so typical of
> 1st year gulls from America! And while asking more questions than answering
> them what do you and Dick come up with when you see a young Herring Gull
> with an American type tail: Hybrid smithsonianus X argentatus!? Without even
> providing a beginning of evidence! Just imagine what will happen if people
> take what you say for granted? Any American or Canadian who comes across a
> gull with a tail like the birds Visa and I found, and I tell you there may
> be hundreds, instantly phones the nearest birdline he can find crying: 'Come
> quick I found a European hybrid!'
> Gulls are no ducks guys, they not just jump on and off the bandwagon and
> think their genes are in safe hands! Pair formation in gulls is a lot more
> complicated than that and I am far from convinced that the cases that we
> know off in Europe were all a 100% natural affair. Mike Harris did an
> interesting experiment in the sixties on the Welsh island of Skomer
> (publ.long ago in Bird Study). He swapped clutches from Herring Gulls and
> Lesser Black-backed Gulls. The result was that LBBG chicks raised and
> imprinted by Herring Gulls paired up with Herring Gulls when adult and
> raised hybrid chicks and the same happened with Herring Gull chicks raised
> by LBBG's! Years ago I ringed (banded!) some chicks from a brood of
> Mediterranean Gulls L.melanocephalus in the middle of a large colony of
> Common Gulls L.canus. Anyone of you who has ever been in Common Gull colony
> knows that is a deafening experience which can give you a headache for the
> rest of the day! One of the Med chicks turned out to be a male. For years I
> have seen him trying to join displaying Common Gulls and while he recognized
> them, their calls and rituals as he had been imprinted by them while a chick
> they would have none of his avances! On the other hand a Ring-billed Gull
> L.delawarensis just flying by was allowed to join display parties any time
> he tried but he more or less followed the same rituals as the Common Gulls
> did and I have ever since been convinced Commons and Ring-bills are closely
> related. Still this case did not result in a mixed pair raising chicks that
> I am aware of. Among the first LBBG's that settled in The Netherlands around
> 1930 there was at least a mixed pair with a Herring Gull, it is believed to
> have been formed by a lone LBBG settling in while the species was expanding
> it's range. Similarly I explained the mixed pairs with Yellow-legged Gulls
> we found in the eighties and nineties as to the expansion of the
> Yellow-legged's range. Despite the hybrid pairs theYellow-legged Gull has
> not really settled in The Netherlands after all these years, the LBBG
> however definitely has and is now more numerous than Herring Gulls in some
> colonies. Occasionally, though in fact very rarely, mixed pairs between LBBG
> and Herring Gull are found and one at least raised chicks this year.
> All cases of hybridization between fuscus and argenteus took place in
> colonies with a lot of disturbance from egg-collectors and I am not at all
> sure therefore that hybridization in these instances was spontaneous. Over
> the years I have found many instances in the Port of Rotterdam colonies
> where workers on building locations had to remove gull nests and as they
> felt sorry for the gulls simply dumped the eggs in the nearest nest they
> could find and so unwittingly repeating Mike Harris' experiments though be
> it in a less organised way! This does not mean that mixed gull pairs cannot
> evolve naturally but I am convinced it is very, very rare and it takes more
> than a lonely wandering gull far from home. As for the case of smithonianus
> and argenteus you must remember that although they look alike when adult,
> genetically they have no recent relationship at all and perhaps by now they
> are even different species!
> So Richard and Dick your speculation on hybridization may be true but find
> proof first and in the mean time don't spoil our fun, after all, life of a
> gullwatcher is complicated enough as it is!
> Cheers, Norman
>
> Richard Millington wrote: > Just another bit of sideways guessing, which I'm
> sure may already have been
>> thrown in the hat some while back.
>>
>> It is pretty much safe to say that true smithsonianus occurs regularly in
>> western Europe, ie multiple records every year. Furthermore, it is highy
>> likely this has been going on for decades or more.
>> However, the majority of records are rather SW (S/W Ireland down to
>> Portugal and Azores).
>> More importantly, the vast majority are first-winters.
>>
>> Some of these birds stay for the first few years of their life (eg in W
>> Ireland). Others may also do so, but are not picked up as they are in less
>> well-watched places. Plus as they mature and get tricky to pick out .
>>
>> Then what happens? Do they return to North America? Do they, as adults
>> (like a particular Ring-billed) commute between Europe and Canada? Or, as
>> is surely likely, do some move up to Scandinavia (as in the 'parallel
>> migration' of waders).
>>
>> In the latter scenario, the more adult they become, the less they become
>> identifiable (like, not at alll...), plus the less further south they may
>> venture in winter. This combination will render them (to all intents and
>> purposes)invisible; adults will simply 'melt' into the populataion.
>>
>> Their hybrid babies, however, will get spotted; they will look like
>> pseudo-smiths in a Herring body, and they will turn up along the route of
>> the Euro-Herring migration (where pure vagrant smiths is at best very
>> rare), and not the far SW (where pure vagrants are more likely).
>>
>> [Obviously a similar (but differently oriented) scenario applies to Vega
>> Gull in N Europe, but the difficulty there is they can't really be told
>> from our Herrings at any age, so that is a no-go area. Funnily enough,
>> some juvenile vegae can look a little like 'Euro-end' smiths...]
>>
>> Okay, a lot of maybes thrown in there, but it works for me:
>> Hybrid smithsonianus X argengatus is my guess.<
>
>
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Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 9 Dec 2006 5:58pm
Dick Newell wrote:> 1. I did not mention anything about hybridisation, but I
think Richard makes
> a good point.
> 2. I do not follow your reasoning at all that a hybrid is unlikely, given
> Liebers mtDNA work which showed that all large gull populations are an
> incredible mixture of mtDNA, to the extent that you cannot uniquely
> identify
> one of these gulls from its mtDNA. In fact, the European Herring Gull was
> the most mixed up of all, having its roots in both primordial gull
> populations - so much for monophyly. If the mtDNA is all mixed up then the
> nuclear DNA must be also, which neatly explains one of the reasons for the
> high degree of variability of these gulls. Hybridisation is at its highest
> level when a rare species enters the range of another - they are
> desperate.<
Their findings reflect the whole evolutionary history of these gulls of say
the last hundred thousand years and of course hybridization played an
important rôle. Our team also proved that these gulls are not part of a ring
species, the chain ends on the one end with the American Herring Gull
L.smithonianus in America and on the other end with the Dutch Herring Gull
L.a.argenteus in Western Europe. By suggesting these two hybridize you are
denying the results of the DNA studies which say they don't and at the same
time you suggest they are indeed a ring species which is fine as long as you
present credible evidence! If they are that desperate as you say they will
return home, no problem for a gull.
> By coincidence we have recently had a substantial influx of Caspian Gulls,
> some of them bearing Polish rings from a mixed colony of argentatus,
> michahellis and cachinnans. Together with these birds are a number which
> look very much like hybrids, including this bird:
> http://cambsbirdclub.blogspot.com/2006/12/caspian-gull_05.html
> Which, although I have labelled it as a cach, I am putatively guessing is
> cach x mich: the coverts look more mich than cach and the leg colour is
> odd.
> I am hoping that the ringers can confirm or refute my suspicions.<
We know that in the interior of Poland and eastern Germany the ranges of
Caspian Gull L.c.cachinnans, Marsh Gull L.omissus (not argentatus) and may
be also Yellow-legged Gull L.m.michahellis touch. Hybridization occurs but
only small numbers are involved. As long as you recognize at least one
parent you can at least roughly guess where it comes from even without ring.
> Now, knowing you Norman, you will carry on grasping at every morsel that
> you
> can find to prove that your bird is a smith, but, for me, I would want a
> lot
> more pro-smith features to be convinced, including even more black in the
> tail, maybe (at least a hint of) a bi-coloured bill, a smoother chocolate
> appearance to the under-parts to name a few.
> Would you call this a smith?:
> http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=517 [the links on this page
> seem to have disappeared]<
The only large gull which is born with a bi-colored bill is the Glaucous
Gull L.hyperboreus, all others are born with a dark bill. In L.a.argenteus
the colour may start to change from the beginning of September some three to
three and a half months after the chicks hatched however the nice bi-colored
bill may not be obtained before their second spring in some. I know in
smithonianus this process takes less time and I am sure there are plenty of
people on the list able to tell us all about smithonianus'bill colour. I
have it from good authority that not all smithonianus are as dark as you
seem to think Dick and that there is in fact quite a bit of variation same
as with the tail-pattern. If you dismiss the dark tail as typical for
smithonianus or indeed for American gulls in general than you're left with
the bi-colored bill and the chocolate colour but if you believe smithonianus
mixes with argentatus than these features become meaningless as well.
Would I call the Dungeness gull a smith? Why not, it looks like a Herring
Gull to me and it has a typical smithonianus tail, what else could it be?
Tim Vaughan thinks the Russian Herring Gull L.a.argentatus has a dark tail.
I am sure Richard Millington can give the details of an excellent article
written by Mark Golley and illustrated by Martin Elliott on argentatus which
was published in Birding World some years ago.
Cheers, Norman
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Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 9 Dec 2006 6:17pm
Norman
It this right about the Glaucous Gull, I don’t know, I am just curious.
Is it true that they hatch (born is probably not the right term for birds,
but surely someone will enjoy arguing about that) with bicolored bills? I
just assumed that they would hatch with dark bills just like all of the
other bicolored billed species (Ring-billed, California to give two
examples).
Regards
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Norman D.van Swelm
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 4:58 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] smithonianus or something else?
Dick Newell wrote:> 1. I did not mention anything about hybridisation, but I
think Richard makes
> a good point.
> 2. I do not follow your reasoning at all that a hybrid is unlikely, given
> Liebers mtDNA work which showed that all large gull populations are an
> incredible mixture of mtDNA, to the extent that you cannot uniquely
> identify
> one of these gulls from its mtDNA. In fact, the European Herring Gull was
> the most mixed up of all, having its roots in both primordial gull
> populations - so much for monophyly. If the mtDNA is all mixed up then the
> nuclear DNA must be also, which neatly explains one of the reasons for the
> high degree of variability of these gulls. Hybridisation is at its highest
> level when a rare species enters the range of another - they are
> desperate.<
Their findings reflect the whole evolutionary history of these gulls of say
the last hundred thousand years and of course hybridization played an
important rôle. Our team also proved that these gulls are not part of a ring
species, the chain ends on the one end with the American Herring Gull
L.smithonianus in America and on the other end with the Dutch Herring Gull
L.a.argenteus in Western Europe. By suggesting these two hybridize you are
denying the results of the DNA studies which say they don't and at the same
time you suggest they are indeed a ring species which is fine as long as you
present credible evidence! If they are that desperate as you say they will
return home, no problem for a gull.
> By coincidence we have recently had a substantial influx of Caspian Gulls,
> some of them bearing Polish rings from a mixed colony of argentatus,
> michahellis and cachinnans. Together with these birds are a number which
> look very much like hybrids, including this bird:
> http://cambsbirdclub.blogspot.com/2006/12/caspian-gull_05.html
> Which, although I have labelled it as a cach, I am putatively guessing is
> cach x mich: the coverts look more mich than cach and the leg colour is
> odd.
> I am hoping that the ringers can confirm or refute my suspicions.<
We know that in the interior of Poland and eastern Germany the ranges of
Caspian Gull L.c.cachinnans, Marsh Gull L.omissus (not argentatus) and may
be also Yellow-legged Gull L.m.michahellis touch. Hybridization occurs but
only small numbers are involved. As long as you recognize at least one
parent you can at least roughly guess where it comes from even without ring.
> Now, knowing you Norman, you will carry on grasping at every morsel that
> you
> can find to prove that your bird is a smith, but, for me, I would want a
> lot
> more pro-smith features to be convinced, including even more black in the
> tail, maybe (at least a hint of) a bi-coloured bill, a smoother chocolate
> appearance to the under-parts to name a few.
> Would you call this a smith?:
> http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=517 [the links on this page
> seem to have disappeared]<
The only large gull which is born with a bi-colored bill is the Glaucous
Gull L.hyperboreus, all others are born with a dark bill. In L.a.argenteus
the colour may start to change from the beginning of September some three to
three and a half months after the chicks hatched however the nice bi-colored
bill may not be obtained before their second spring in some. I know in
smithonianus this process takes less time and I am sure there are plenty of
people on the list able to tell us all about smithonianus'bill colour. I
have it from good authority that not all smithonianus are as dark as you
seem to think Dick and that there is in fact quite a bit of variation same
as with the tail-pattern. If you dismiss the dark tail as typical for
smithonianus or indeed for American gulls in general than you're left with
the bi-colored bill and the chocolate colour but if you believe smithonianus
mixes with argentatus than these features become meaningless as well.
Would I call the Dungeness gull a smith? Why not, it looks like a Herring
Gull to me and it has a typical smithonianus tail, what else could it be?
Tim Vaughan thinks the Russian Herring Gull L.a.argentatus has a dark tail.
I am sure Richard Millington can give the details of an excellent article
written by Mark Golley and illustrated by Martin Elliott on argentatus which
was published in Birding World some years ago.
Cheers, Norman
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