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ID-FRONTIERS for December 10-16, 2006
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Dick Newell | Sun, 10 Dec 2006 | 2:46am |
| gull ID: michahellis or cachinnans? | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alain | Sun, 10 Dec 2006 | 5:10am |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Norman D.van Swelm | Sun, 10 Dec 2006 | 5:23pm |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Norman D.van Swelm | Sun, 10 Dec 2006 | 6:10pm |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Alvaro Jaramillo | Sun, 10 Dec 2006 | 6:29pm |
| Re: smithonianus or something else? | Frode Falkenberg | Mon, 11 Dec 2006 | 3:56am |
| Glaucous Gull juv bill color; mystery Herring
Gulls | Martin Reid | Mon, 11 Dec 2006 | 4:38pm |
| Gull aging - and a follow up question | Matt Sharp | Mon, 11 Dec 2006 | 5:09pm |
| Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull | Rich Hoyer | Mon, 11 Dec 2006 | 9:17pm |
| Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha | Tue, 12 Dec 2006 | 12:37pm |
| Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull | Rich Hoyer | Tue, 12 Dec 2006 | 12:47pm |
| Hybrid Aythya - Probable Ring-necked / Cavasback? | OLCOOT1(AT)AOL.COM | Tue, 12 Dec 2006 | 5:16pm |
| Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull | Floyd Hayes | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 12:37pm |
| Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | David Seibel | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 1:07pm |
| Caribbean egret | Matt Sharp | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 1:20pm |
| FW: Possible American Wigeon in Austria | Caleb Putnam | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 1:25pm |
| Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 1:34pm |
| Re: Caribbean egret | Phil Davis | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 1:40pm |
| Re: FW: Possible American Wigeon in Austria | Lee Evans | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 1:49pm |
| Re: Caribbean egret | Martin Reid | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 3:31pm |
| Re: FW: Possible American Wigeon in Austria | =?windows-1252?Q?Jim | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 3:54pm |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | Bruce Mactavish | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 4:24pm |
| Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull | Nick Komar | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 6:27pm |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | David Seibel | Wed, 13 Dec 2006 | 10:36pm |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | David Sibley | Thu, 14 Dec 2006 | 8:46am |
| Re: Caribbean egret | Floyd Hayes | Thu, 14 Dec 2006 | 10:47am |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | David Seibel | Thu, 14 Dec 2006 | 11:10am |
| Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull | Floyd Hayes | Thu, 14 Dec 2006 | 11:13am |
| Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull | Chris Corben | Thu, 14 Dec 2006 | 2:25pm |
| Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull | Floyd Hayes | Thu, 14 Dec 2006 | 2:30pm |
| Re: Caribbean egret | Matt Sharp | Thu, 14 Dec 2006 | 5:33pm |
| Problems with NGS-5 | Ian Paulsen | Thu, 14 Dec 2006 | 5:46pm |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM | Thu, 14 Dec 2006 | 8:26pm |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | Christopher Vogel | Thu, 14 Dec 2006 | 8:52pm |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | rsheil | Fri, 15 Dec 2006 | 8:22am |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | John Idzikowski | Fri, 15 Dec 2006 | 9:30am |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | Allen Chartier | Fri, 15 Dec 2006 | 9:31am |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | Matt Sharp | Fri, 15 Dec 2006 | 9:39am |
| BayPoll | sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM | Fri, 15 Dec 2006 | 9:53am |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | Dave Rintoul | Fri, 15 Dec 2006 | 10:17am |
| Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted | Allen Chartier | Fri, 15 Dec 2006 | 10:29am |
| Neotropical Cormorant - Why none in the east? | Brian Monk | Fri, 15 Dec 2006 | 7:15pm |
| Black or Markham's Storm-Petrel on Lima Pelagic
November 10, 2006 | Gunnar Engblom | Sat, 16 Dec 2006 | 12:16pm |
| Re: Black or Markham's Storm-Petrel on Lima
Pelagic November 10, 2006 | Dick Newell | Sat, 16 Dec 2006 | 4:08pm |
| Tundra or Trumpeter | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lloyd | Sat, 16 Dec 2006 | 5:55pm |
| LBMU vs MAMU | SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM | Sat, 16 Dec 2006 | 8:16pm |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
|
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 10 Dec 2006 2:46am
One more go:
1. I did not say that your bird is not not a smith (though I seriously doubt
it)
2. An all black bill in a 1st winter bird does not eliminate smith (as you
say), but a bi-coloured bill would be unusual in argy, so I would like to
see this in a candidate smith.
3. Liebers' samples were quite small, so finding smith DNA in the EHG
population may take a much larger sample (didn't Pierre-andré find smith
haplotypes in the American GBBG population? - which implies they hybridised)
4. To say that smith would not hybridise with argentatus, when 2 more
distantly related gulls, Glaucous-winged and Western Gulls extensively
hybridise seems an odd piece of logic to me (not to mention Mediterranean
Gulls mixing with Black-headed Gulls or even Pom with a southern
"Catharacta" - the current favourite explanation of the origin of Bonxie
(Great Skua)).
5. I thought the model that replaced the ring theory model was rather more
complex than a simple chain from smith to argenteus (which is the British
Herring Gull by the way! You can keep your Dutch intergrades - we call them
Essex Gulls).
6. I have seen a ringed/banded pink-legged Herring Gull from Kleinskochen,
the famous mixed colony in eastern Germany - are you saying that this is a
Marsh Gull? You can see it here:
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=810
7.Plate 338 on page 271 of O&L shows an argenteus Herring Gull with a
similar tail to your bird - admittedly with a cleaner rump and upper-tail
coverts. The caption implies that such tails are not particularly unusual.
8. I am sure the moderator will call us to heel when he is tired of this
dialogue.
Dick
Cambridge, UK
On 10/12/06 00:58, "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl> wrote:
>
> Dick Newell wrote:> 1. I did not mention anything about hybridisation, but I
> think Richard makes
>> a good point.
>> 2. I do not follow your reasoning at all that a hybrid is unlikely, given
>> Liebers mtDNA work which showed that all large gull populations are an
>> incredible mixture of mtDNA, to the extent that you cannot uniquely
>> identify
>> one of these gulls from its mtDNA. In fact, the European Herring Gull was
>> the most mixed up of all, having its roots in both primordial gull
>> populations - so much for monophyly. If the mtDNA is all mixed up then the
>> nuclear DNA must be also, which neatly explains one of the reasons for the
>> high degree of variability of these gulls. Hybridisation is at its highest
>> level when a rare species enters the range of another - they are
>> desperate.<
>
> Their findings reflect the whole evolutionary history of these gulls of say
> the last hundred thousand years and of course hybridization played an
> important rôle. Our team also proved that these gulls are not part of a ring
> species, the chain ends on the one end with the American Herring Gull
> L.smithonianus in America and on the other end with the Dutch Herring Gull
> L.a.argenteus in Western Europe. By suggesting these two hybridize you are
> denying the results of the DNA studies which say they don't and at the same
> time you suggest they are indeed a ring species which is fine as long as you
> present credible evidence! If they are that desperate as you say they will
> return home, no problem for a gull.
>
>> By coincidence we have recently had a substantial influx of Caspian Gulls,
>> some of them bearing Polish rings from a mixed colony of argentatus,
>> michahellis and cachinnans. Together with these birds are a number which
>> look very much like hybrids, including this bird:
>> http://cambsbirdclub.blogspot.com/2006/12/caspian-gull_05.html
>> Which, although I have labelled it as a cach, I am putatively guessing is
>> cach x mich: the coverts look more mich than cach and the leg colour is
>> odd.
>> I am hoping that the ringers can confirm or refute my suspicions.<
>
> We know that in the interior of Poland and eastern Germany the ranges of
> Caspian Gull L.c.cachinnans, Marsh Gull L.omissus (not argentatus) and may
> be also Yellow-legged Gull L.m.michahellis touch. Hybridization occurs but
> only small numbers are involved. As long as you recognize at least one
> parent you can at least roughly guess where it comes from even without ring.
>
>> Now, knowing you Norman, you will carry on grasping at every morsel that
>> you
>> can find to prove that your bird is a smith, but, for me, I would want a
>> lot
>> more pro-smith features to be convinced, including even more black in the
>> tail, maybe (at least a hint of) a bi-coloured bill, a smoother chocolate
>> appearance to the under-parts to name a few.
>> Would you call this a smith?:
>> http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=517 [the links on this page
>> seem to have disappeared]<
>
> The only large gull which is born with a bi-colored bill is the Glaucous
> Gull L.hyperboreus, all others are born with a dark bill. In L.a.argenteus
> the colour may start to change from the beginning of September some three to
> three and a half months after the chicks hatched however the nice bi-colored
> bill may not be obtained before their second spring in some. I know in
> smithonianus this process takes less time and I am sure there are plenty of
> people on the list able to tell us all about smithonianus'bill colour. I
> have it from good authority that not all smithonianus are as dark as you
> seem to think Dick and that there is in fact quite a bit of variation same
> as with the tail-pattern. If you dismiss the dark tail as typical for
> smithonianus or indeed for American gulls in general than you're left with
> the bi-colored bill and the chocolate colour but if you believe smithonianus
> mixes with argentatus than these features become meaningless as well.
> Would I call the Dungeness gull a smith? Why not, it looks like a Herring
> Gull to me and it has a typical smithonianus tail, what else could it be?
> Tim Vaughan thinks the Russian Herring Gull L.a.argentatus has a dark tail.
> I am sure Richard Millington can give the details of an excellent article
> written by Mark Golley and illustrated by Martin Elliott on argentatus which
> was published in Birding World some years ago.
> Cheers, Norman
>
>
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: gull ID: michahellis or cachinnans?
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alain_FOSS=C9?= <alfosse(AT)WANADOO.FR>
Date: 10 Dec 2006 5:10am
--Apple-Mail-10-614327303
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=WINDOWS-1252;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Can I ask you for comments on the gull http://www.digimages.info/=20
goeleu/goeleu.htm taken on 27=B711=B706 Maine-et-Loire, Western France.
When i saw it first (always at great distance, digiscoping with x60 =20
eyepiece), I thought Caspian Gull (small eye on white head, slim =20
bill) then when I checked the pictures I was not convinced. Philippe =20
J. DUBOIS thinks also it's only a michahellis. Ruud ALTENBURG is =20
inclined towards cachinnans=85 (I've no other pictures available.)
What do you think?
Best regards.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Alain Foss=E9, LPO Anjou, Montreuil-Juign=E9, France
47=B0 31' 34" N, 0=B0 35' 43" W
<alfosse at wanadoo.fr>
My digiscoping <http://www.digimages.info/>
My French List of the Birds of the World <http://perso.orange.fr/=20
listeoiseauxmonde/>
My bird society <http://www.lpo-anjou.org/>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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--Apple-Mail-10-614327303
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charset=WINDOWS-1252
----DELETED HTML-ENCODED SECTION----
<p>
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<p>
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<p>
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 10 Dec 2006 5:23pm
Alvaro, try and get, if you can, a copy of the Guide to the Young of
European Precocial Birds by Jon Fjeldsa, published in 1977 by Skarv Nature
Publications ISBN: 87-87581-12-4. A little known jewel, both scientifically
as well as artistically. Thanks to Jon's chick studies I began
ringing/banding Arctic Terns and Lesser Black-backed Gulls which was only
allowed in single species colonies as the chicks of Common Terns and Herring
Gulls are so alike but what when you only have mixed colonies as we have?
Thanks to Jon I was able to distinguish the chicks and ring them without
problem..
Jon describes the bill of small Glaucous Gull chicks as follows:' Bill at
first flesh pink with a distinct dusky border against the buffish tip.' and
for larger chicks: 'Bill flesh pink with distinct black tip.'
and here is another interesting quote: 'Young of the, by origin, possibly
stabilized hybrid population with Herring-gull on Baffin Island, called
Kumlin's Gull, Larus kumlieni have still darker bill (than Iceland
Gull -NDvS-),'.
Norman
Alvaro Jaramillo asked: > It this right about the Glaucous Gull, I don't
know, I am just curious.
Is it true that they hatch (born is probably not the right term for birds,
but surely someone will enjoy arguing about that) with bicolored bills? I
just assumed that they would hatch with dark bills just like all of the
other bicolored billed species (Ring-billed, California to give two
examples). <
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 10 Dec 2006 6:10pm
Dick Newell wrote: > One more go:
1. I did not say that your bird is not not a smith (though I seriously doubt
it)
2. An all black bill in a 1st winter bird does not eliminate smith (as you
say), but a bi-coloured bill would be unusual in argy, so I would like to
see this in a candidate smith.
3. Liebers' samples were quite small, so finding smith DNA in the EHG
population may take a much larger sample (didn't Pierre-andré find smith
haplotypes in the American GBBG population? - which implies they
hybridised)<
The amount of samples was bigger than in any other gull study so far.
4. To say that smith would not hybridise with argentatus, when 2 more
distantly related gulls, Glaucous-winged and Western Gulls extensively
hybridise seems an odd piece of logic to me (not to mention Mediterranean
Gulls mixing with Black-headed Gulls or even Pom with a southern
"Catharacta" - the current favourite explanation of the origin of Bonxie
(Great Skua)).
Anything is possible but you need to prove it first. Mediterranean and
Black-headed Gull hybrids are very rare. Mediterranean Gulls use
Black-headed colonies for protection they leave the defense to the
Black-headeds in case of disturbance. Similar to what I described to you in
the case of Common versus Mediterranean the noise in the colony is
overwhelming and Mediterranean chicks could easily be imprinted by the
Black-headed Gulls' calls and somehow when adult mate with a Black-headed
Gull.
5. I thought the model that replaced the ring theory model was rather more
complex than a simple chain from smith to argenteus (which is the British
Herring Gull by the way! You can keep your Dutch intergrades - we call them
Essex Gulls).<
Thank you. Being a son of both nations myself I am really not bothered so I
go for fair play: the type locality for argenteus is the Dutch island of
Texel (see Ibis, 1935 p.769) so Dutch Herring Gull is quite justifiable!
6. I have seen a ringed/banded pink-legged Herring Gull from Kleinskochen,
the famous mixed colony in eastern Germany - are you saying that this is a
Marsh Gull? You can see it here:
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=810<
I can see it is a 3CY bird but I am no magician. I am glad I am able to
distinguish a number of adult omissus from other gulls but that is as far as
it goes for me. The east-west migration path this gull took however is well
in agreement with what omissus does as shown by previous recoveries.
Kleinkoschen is a place where ringers can only catch chicks when the chicks
swim away. The island is too dangerous to walk on so the ringers are never
certain who the chick's parents are!
7.Plate 338 on page 271 of O&L shows an argenteus Herring Gull with a
similar tail to your bird - admittedly with a cleaner rump and upper-tail
coverts. The caption implies that such tails are not particularly unusual.<
From what I have learned over the years this gull may pass as a smithonianus
when seen in Canada and the US!
Cheers, Norman
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 10 Dec 2006 6:29pm
Norman et al.
The book sounds interesting, thanks. Declan Troy sent a photo of some
rather young Glaucous Gull chicks to Norman and I. Interestingly these birds
show black bills with yellow egg tooth and bill tip. So at least in the very
early stages of some North American Glaucous Gulls the bills are dark at the
base. This would be consistent with other pink billed gulls. However I don't
doubt that the pink base and bicolored nature of Glaucous Gull bills
develops early in life, likely earlier than in other similarly patterned
gulls.
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Norman D.van Swelm
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 4:23 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] smithonianus or something else?
Alvaro, try and get, if you can, a copy of the Guide to the Young of
European Precocial Birds by Jon Fjeldsa, published in 1977 by Skarv Nature
Publications ISBN: 87-87581-12-4. A little known jewel, both scientifically
as well as artistically. Thanks to Jon's chick studies I began
ringing/banding Arctic Terns and Lesser Black-backed Gulls which was only
allowed in single species colonies as the chicks of Common Terns and Herring
Gulls are so alike but what when you only have mixed colonies as we have?
Thanks to Jon I was able to distinguish the chicks and ring them without
problem..
Jon describes the bill of small Glaucous Gull chicks as follows:' Bill at
first flesh pink with a distinct dusky border against the buffish tip.' and
for larger chicks: 'Bill flesh pink with distinct black tip.'
and here is another interesting quote: 'Young of the, by origin, possibly
stabilized hybrid population with Herring-gull on Baffin Island, called
Kumlin's Gull, Larus kumlieni have still darker bill (than Iceland
Gull -NDvS-),'.
Norman
Alvaro Jaramillo asked: > It this right about the Glaucous Gull, I don't
know, I am just curious.
Is it true that they hatch (born is probably not the right term for birds,
but surely someone will enjoy arguing about that) with bicolored bills? I
just assumed that they would hatch with dark bills just like all of the
other bicolored billed species (Ring-billed, California to give two
examples). <
Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: smithonianus or something else?
From: Frode Falkenberg <Frode.Falkenberg(AT)SKOLELAB.UIB.NO>
Date: 11 Dec 2006 3:56am
Hi all!
Newborn hybrid chicks (GGxHG) do also show the bill-pattern described;
dark base and yellowish tip.
http://cyberbirding.no/gull/ufo/1cy_02.php
All the best,
Frode Falkenberg, Norway
http://cyberbirding.no/
Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
> Norman et al.
>
> The book sounds interesting, thanks. Declan Troy sent a photo of some
> rather young Glaucous Gull chicks to Norman and I. Interestingly these birds
> show black bills with yellow egg tooth and bill tip. So at least in the very
> early stages of some North American Glaucous Gulls the bills are dark at the
> base. This would be consistent with other pink billed gulls. However I don't
> doubt that the pink base and bicolored nature of Glaucous Gull bills
> develops early in life, likely earlier than in other similarly patterned
> gulls.
>
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> chucao(AT)coastside.net
> Half Moon Bay, California
>
> Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
> www.fieldguides.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Norman D.van Swelm
> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 4:23 PM
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] smithonianus or something else?
>
> Alvaro, try and get, if you can, a copy of the Guide to the Young of
> European Precocial Birds by Jon Fjeldsa, published in 1977 by Skarv Nature
> Publications ISBN: 87-87581-12-4. A little known jewel, both scientifically
>
> as well as artistically. Thanks to Jon's chick studies I began
> ringing/banding Arctic Terns and Lesser Black-backed Gulls which was only
> allowed in single species colonies as the chicks of Common Terns and Herring
>
> Gulls are so alike but what when you only have mixed colonies as we have?
> Thanks to Jon I was able to distinguish the chicks and ring them without
> problem..
>
> Jon describes the bill of small Glaucous Gull chicks as follows:' Bill at
> first flesh pink with a distinct dusky border against the buffish tip.' and
> for larger chicks: 'Bill flesh pink with distinct black tip.'
> and here is another interesting quote: 'Young of the, by origin, possibly
> stabilized hybrid population with Herring-gull on Baffin Island, called
> Kumlin's Gull, Larus kumlieni have still darker bill (than Iceland
> Gull -NDvS-),'.
> Norman
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo asked: > It this right about the Glaucous Gull, I don't
> know, I am just curious.
> Is it true that they hatch (born is probably not the right term for birds,
> but surely someone will enjoy arguing about that) with bicolored bills? I
> just assumed that they would hatch with dark bills just like all of the
> other bicolored billed species (Ring-billed, California to give two
> examples). <
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
--
Frode Falkenberg
Skolelaboratoriet i realfag, UiB
Allegaten 41
5007 Bergen
Tlf: 55 58 22 25
www.miljolare.no
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Glaucous Gull juv bill color; mystery Herring
Gulls
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 11 Dec 2006 4:38pm
Dear Norman, Alvaro, et al,
I worked in north and west Alaska this early Fall, and was able to
study many GLGUs. I saw a number of interesting things (more to come
later on most of those), including presumed late-hatching juveniles
with some slight duskiness in the bill base, so here's some reference
pics of those:
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/glgup08.html
Visa's and Norman's Gulls: I feel that we are a long way from
knowing the morphological boundaries (if they exist) between
smithsonianus, argentatus, argenteus, vegae, etc. This is due to a
number of inter-related causes:
- intense study and image documentation of gull plumages is a fairly
recent event - we need to gather loads more data.
- color-ringing/banding of large gulls at breeding colonies is a
fairly recent event - and very limited away from Europe/Scandinavia -
so the marked birds are not yet up to a level where we are able to
gather much distribution data away from the breeding grounds - but
this situation is improving in some areas of Europe/Scandinavia, and
maybe Asia.
- almost all the new plumage data is coming from areas away from the
breeding grounds (at least, in North America), so we don't actually
know for sure what taxon we are looking at, with any one individual.
Even plumage studies at breeding sites are mostly limited to adults
and very young juveniles - not the intervening plumages.
- Some populations of large gulls are undergoing rapid changes in
their distribution (either breeding. non-breeding, or both). Some of
these changes have (and continue to have) lead to hybridisation
events of varying size and extent.
- Genetic data is expensive to acquire, and is still very limited;
even the largest studies have used quite small sample sizes. In some
cases these data are much smaller than most gullers would feel
comfortable using for a morphological study (this is not a criticism
of those studies - you have to work with the dataset you can
afford/gain access to).
- banding/ringing at large mixed-species gull colonies is fraught
with possibilities for misidentifying the taxon. This is even more
challenging at such colonies where breeding-age hybrids are
known/suspected.
As others have stated, the priority is lots more ringing/banding and
gathering of genetic data at the breeding grounds. Without it, we
gullers in the non-breeding areas are fumbling in virtual darkness -
but we still need keep photographing all those variations we see, in
the hope that one day some sense can be made of it (and that maybe
one or two fabulous records lie therein!)
I have seen birds like Norman's down here in Texas. I don't know
what they are, but suspect that most are Alaskan-breeding American
Herring Gulls that have some Vega traits (e,g, tail pattern) from
recent secondary contact. some may be actual hybrids with Vega...
who knows? This does not make Norman's bird a AMHE, of course - but
it could be. I think Dick is pointing out that, with so much
presumed overlap in individual features between AMHE and HERG, only
candidates with somewhat extreme AMHE features (i.e. those where each
character is over to the AMHE end of the scale) can safely be called
AMHE at this time. The rest are not to be ditched, but placed into
the "Pending" file so that - hopefully - a pattern emerges, and/or
better techniques are derived, and then such birds can be reevaluated.
Cheers,
Martin
--
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Subject: Gull aging - and a follow up question
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 11 Dec 2006 5:09pm
Thanks to all who responded to my question on aging gulls.
It was a perhaps worded a bit naively but it was helpful to
gauge the relative weights people gave to bare-parts vs
plumage.
It seems to me that in general plumage; while having a narrower
color range, plumage can become more complex due to wear and timing
of molt whereas bare parts tend to be more simply wrong or right.
It was also pointed out that the reliability of bare part color/pattern
can depend on whether the color/pattern is expressed or retained.
Though it is still hard to make any generalization here.
I agree with Martin Reid that primary shape and/or pattern is likely
the
single most reliable feature for aging individual birds, though this
takes
some practice and I still find differences between 2nd and 3rd years
more difficult than between 1st and 2nd yrs. Also different species
differ
slightly though the uniformity of wear on juv remiges should be
consistent.
Though I have spent little time hanging out in gull colonies what I
have
seen and what seems to be reinforced by photos is that within a colony
there is far less variation in juvenile birds than there is in first
winters in
the non-breeding range
This makes sense of course but it does offer a useful starting point -
ie
the variation is not "simple" individual variation and must be
geographically
based or due to molt, health, and/or some combo of that as well as
other
environmental variables.
I am wondering if those who have spent time in gull colonies noticed
such
a uniformity in juvenile plumage within colonies?
I have recently added many new images of gulls to the VIREO on-line
collection, including many fantastic images of some western species
by Jeff Poklen and Jukka Jantunen. As well as a couple dozen images
of Lesser Black-backed Gulls from Bucks Co. PA.
The western species include about 25 putative hybrids between
Glaucous-winged and
just about everything else. You can see all of them, along with some
ducks and a
hummingbird by searching 'hybrid'.
Comments on these images would be much appreciated. This is really my
first serious attempt to make sense out of the mess western US gullers
get to see - and I will stick to my odd Herring Gulls since they are
confusing
enough!
Finally to add to some of the on-going discussions VIREO has 1 image
of a Glaucous Gull chick from Nunavut. See image j07/1/108.
I have been enjoying the smithsonianus thread. The birds from Finland
and The
Netherlands are certainly not typical smithsonianus, in terms of tail
pattern, but nor
are they that radically different.
I personally think they should simply remain unidentified. While Norman
is correct that
calling them hybrids, without some other form of proof, is potentially
confounding the issue
the same is true about calling them smithsonianus.
Best to all
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
http://vireo.acnatsci.org
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
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Subject: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Rich Hoyer <calliope(AT)THERIVER.COM>
Date: 11 Dec 2006 9:17pm
Hi All,
A lot of backroom discussions are surely already taking place regarding
this bird, but before I run out of time and interest, I thought I would
quickly post a link to my marginal photos obtained this morning. While
I lack experience and authority to claim much on this bird, it does
seem to bear all the field marks requisite of the first record of
Lesser Black-backed Gull for Arizona. In any event, stay tuned for more
links to much better photos and more informed discussion.
http://personal.riverusers.com/~calliope/lbbgull.html
Good Birding,
Rich
---
Richard C. Hoyer
Tucson, AZ
Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
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Subject: Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Michael_C_Moore?= <michael.moore(AT)ASU.EDU>
Date: 12 Dec 2006 12:37pm
Hi,
For those interested at looking at more pictures and discussion about this
bird, use the following links:
www.azfo.org - click on Photo Highlights
www.birdforum.net - look under Forums, Bird Identification or Taxonomy Q&A
The emerging consensus on Birdforum seems to favor LBBG, but since this is a
potential first state record, any all comments would be most welcome.
Mike Moore
Gilbert, AZ
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Subject: Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Rich Hoyer <calliope(AT)THERIVER.COM>
Date: 12 Dec 2006 12:47pm
Hi All,
More and better photos of this bird can now be viewed at the Arizona
Field Ornithologists website http://www.azfo.org/gallery/photos.html.
Other than a few comments that the jizz is a bit odd (bill shape,
mostly), I've received no comments suggesting that this could be
anything other than Lesser Black-backed Gull.
Good Birding,
Rich
---
Richard C. Hoyer
Tucson, AZ
Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
---
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Subject: Hybrid Aythya - Probable Ring-necked / Cavasback?
From: OLCOOT1(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 12 Dec 2006 5:16pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
December 12, 2006
TVA Ponds - Allen Steam Plant
Shelby Co. TN
On Sunday, I came across this bird while scanning through a large mixed
flock of waterfowl. I've posted some fair ID photos at:
_http://www.pbase.com/ol_coot/hybrid_aythya_
(http://www.pbase.com/ol_coot/hybrid_aythya)
Comments on the ID and possible mix would be appreciated.
Good Birding !!!
Jeff R. Wilson / TLBA
6298 Memphis-Arlington Road
Bartlett, TN 38135
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Subject: Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 12:37pm
How late can first-cycle California Gulls retain an
all black or mostly black bill? I've never seen a
Lesser Black-backed Gull in the western USA and I'm
wondering which field marks are the best for
distinguishing a first-cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull
from a first-cycle California Gull.
Floyd Hayes
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Subject: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: David Seibel <dseibel(AT)JCCC.EDU>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 1:07pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Last September I photographed a warbler that looked like a Blackpoll =
except for a few subtle characters and one that supposedly never varies: =
It had no hint of yellow on its feet. I've posted a series of images =
and more detailed comments here:
http://staff.jccc.edu/dseibel/birds/BLPW.htm
I'd especially appreciate hearing if anyone knows of exceptions to the =
rule that Blackpolls always have yellow soles.
Thanks,
David Seibel
Lenexa, Kansas USA
=20
=20
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto =
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and =
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entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and =
state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader =
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that =
retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is =
strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please =
immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently =
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Subject: Caribbean egret
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 1:20pm
I came across a juv egret photo taken in Bonaire unfortunately, no date was
provided
for this image.
It struck me as a bit long billed and long faced for a Snowy and I wonder if it
can be
identified as a Little?
I have included 2 images of similar aged Snowies from FL and 2 Snowies from
Bonaire (a juv and an adult) by the same photographer so I am assuming they
were taken around the same time.
images are here:
http://www.vireo.acnatsci.org/DVOC/egrets.html
Comments would be appreciated.
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
http://vireo.acnatsci.org
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
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Subject: FW: Possible American Wigeon in Austria
From: Caleb Putnam <larus10(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 1:25pm
Frontiersfolk-
I was asked to post the following request from Leander Khil of the Austrian
Rarities Committee. He is not a member of the list so please cc Leander in
any replies at leander(AT)khil.net . Note that photos of the wigeon in
question are posted at
www.khil.net/Club300/gallerie.htm
Cheers,
Caleb Putnam
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
larus10(AT)hotmail.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Leander Khil" <leander(AT)khil.net>
Subject: Possible American Wigeon in Austria
Hello!
Im contacting you because of a possible American Wigeon (we think that it's
a young female) I and another member of the Austrian Rarities Committee
observed yesterday.
The bird would constitute the first record of this species for Austria, and
maybe one of the, or even the most eastern ever recorded in Europe.
It's strange that its not possible for us to determine the ID of a bird
which is so well photographed as this one, but here are our problems, or
points which attracted our attention:
1.) The white belly of the bird seems not very sharply delimited - we found
no photos of AWs showing it like this
2.) The neck is very dark, nearly black
3.) The bill pattern is untypical, according to nearly all the litterature
available. But we found this photo of an Alaska-bird, which shows exactly
the same pattern:
http://www.bobsteelephoto.com/Images/Species_Images/amwi/amwi_R2M36827.jpg
4.) Some people guess that the head-shape is not very typical (this doesn't
include my opinion..)
Please take a look at the pictures of the bird here:
www.khil.net/Club300/gallerie.htm
I would be grateful if you could comment on the birds age, sex and ID and
maybe you can forward my message to other observers, who maybe also have
experience with Eurasian Wigeon.
regards from Europe, Leander Khil
------------------------------------
Leander Khil
Neutorgasse 26
A-8010 Graz
Austria
mobil. +43/650/7710896
tel. +43/316/82920729
web. www.khil.net
www.club300.at.tf
------------------------------------
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Subject: Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Michael_C_Moore?= <michael.moore(AT)ASU.EDU>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 1:34pm
Floyd
Remember this bird is in juvenile plumage just molting into its first winter
plumage. I believe the biggest difference is that Juv California Gull
usually would have a heavily brown-barred rump which would appear brown
against a black tail. They also usually have a white wing bar at the base
of the greater coverts and also often at the base of the median coverts as
well creating a double white wing bar.
I think the white rump of the AZ bird eliminates California Gull as does the
pattern on the secondary coverts. However, the white rump is not by itself
diagnostic of juv LBBG but I think it is the best way to rule out
California. In later stages, this mark is less useful. I think it is
pretty late, but not impossible, for CA Gull to have an all dark bill as
well.
Mike Moore
Gilbert, AZ
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Subject: Re: Caribbean egret
From: Phil Davis <pdavis(AT)IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 1:40pm
Hi Matt:
I'd say juvenile Little. The bill length, bill color, loral color,
and light eye could be either juvenile Snowy or juvenile Little,
however, the long, evenly sloping forehead from the crown directly
onto the bill looks real good for Little. Snowy's have a steep forehead.
Phil
At 15:24 12/13/2006, Matt Sharp wrote:
>I came across a juv egret photo taken in Bonaire unfortunately, no
>date was provided
>for this image.
>
>It struck me as a bit long billed and long faced for a Snowy and I
>wonder if it can be
>identified as a Little?
>
>I have included 2 images of similar aged Snowies from FL and 2 Snowies from
>Bonaire (a juv and an adult) by the same photographer so I am assuming they
>were taken around the same time.
>
>images are here:
>http://www.vireo.acnatsci.org/DVOC/egrets.html
>
>Comments would be appreciated.
==================================
Phil Davis Davidsonville, Maryland USA
mailto:PDavis(AT)ix.netcom.com
==================================
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Subject: Re: FW: Possible American Wigeon in Austria
From: Lee Evans <LGREUK400(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 1:49pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
In a message dated 13/12/2006 20:26:50 GMT Standard Time, larus10(AT)HOTMAIL.COM
writes:
www.khil.net/Club300/gallerie.htm
A superb set of photographs clearly depicting a female-type American Wigeon
or far more likely an American Wigeon, Eurasian Wigeon or Chiloe Wigeon hybrid.
Although the long tail feathers are suggestive of americana and the
heavily-furrowed, strongly vermiculated head feathers are also, the bill shape,
pattern
and colour are wrong for typical individuals of that species. The patterning
on the lower breast feathering is also wrong, as well as the patterning on the
mantle and greater coverts. Furthermore, it does not have the overall 'feel'
of americana and I fully expect, as it moults into winter plumage, its true
identity will be revealed. It is certainly not acceptable as the first record
for Austria.
It appears to be heavily associating with Mallards, with no Eurasian Wigeon
in sight. Virtually all vagrant American Wigeons in Britain have associated
with Eurasian Wigeon, with the odd bird very rarely with Gadwall. Those
associating with Mallard have been widely dismissed as escapes from captivity.
Very best wishes
Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine & Ornithological Consultant
Discussion Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/)
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Subject: Re: Caribbean egret
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 3:31pm
Dear Phil, Matt, and all,
I feel that IDing non-plumed, no-date egret pics is very tricky! I
invested a lot of study some time back, and concluded that juvenile
egrets before, say. October may not be identifiable, due to the
variation of loral color (in Snowy and some races of Little),
apparent structure, bill pattern, and leg pattern. I have a few
pages discussing this issues on my site:
http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/egrets.html
http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/egrets4.html
http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/egrets5.html
I recommend reading David Sibley's succinct summary of the issue in
his Field Guide.
Sooo without a date, I wouldn't commit to a species on the Bonaire bird.
Cheers,
Martin
PS for those wondering if Little Egrets ever have yellow lores, take
a look at just one example from Kim Hyun-tae's fabulous web site:
http://sath.hs.kr/pintail/2002/sep/0921.htm
- if you go in through the front door at:
http://home.megapass.co.kr/~skua/
and browse through the news section, you'll find many more... plus
loads of other most useful images.
>Hi Matt:
>
>I'd say juvenile Little. The bill length, bill color, loral color,
>and light eye could be either juvenile Snowy or juvenile Little,
>however, the long, evenly sloping forehead from the crown directly
>onto the bill looks real good for Little. Snowy's have a steep
>forehead.
>
>Phil
>
>
>At 15:24 12/13/2006, Matt Sharp wrote:
>>I came across a juv egret photo taken in Bonaire unfortunately, no
>>date was provided
>>for this image.
>>
>>It struck me as a bit long billed and long faced for a Snowy and I
>>wonder if it can be
>>identified as a Little?
>>
>>I have included 2 images of similar aged Snowies from FL and 2 Snowies from
>>Bonaire (a juv and an adult) by the same photographer so I am assuming they
>>were taken around the same time.
>>
>>images are here:
>>http://www.vireo.acnatsci.org/DVOC/egrets.html
>>
>>Comments would be appreciated.
>
>==================================
>Phil Davis Davidsonville, Maryland USA
> mailto:PDavis(AT)ix.netcom.com
>==================================
>
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--
>Martin Reid
>San Antonio, Texas
>mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
>http://www.martinreid.com
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Subject: Re: FW: Possible American Wigeon in Austria
From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jim_Pike?= <jpike44(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 3:54pm
I agree with Lee. It appears that this bird has wigeon in it, but it
isn't an American. Those coarse, black vermiculations on the breast, and
that too-long, too-flat bill, lacking black at the tip and at the gape
rule that out.
Jim Pike
Huntington Beach, CA
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 4:24pm
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----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Very interesting warbler that upon on initial reaction I assigned as a
possible hybrid Blackpoll x Bay-breasted. In eastern Newfoundland
Blackpoll Warbler is by far the most abundant warbler observed during
migration mid August to early September. Flocks by the score are
routine. It is a nuisance bird while seeking southern vagrant warblers.
The thick uniform pearly gray legs and large feet of your bird are
totally Bay-breasted. Blackpolls in fall have thin brownish legs with
yellowish feet, brightest on the soles, yellow can extend up backs of
legs. The thick legs, heavy feet and relatively heavy bill are
characteristics of the robust Bay-breasted Warbler. The clear green
head and sides of neck are Bay-breasted. The wash of colour over the
vent is all Bay-breasted. In fact the more one looks the less one sees
any Blackpoll blood in this bird. Could it not be a particularly dull
Bay-breasted Warbler? Perhaps it is retaining some post-fledgling
streaking? In the time is has taken to write this email I've changed my
vote to Bay-breasted Warbler.
Excellent photos.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Seibel
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:38 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
Last September I photographed a warbler that looked like a Blackpoll
except for a few subtle characters and one that supposedly never varies:
It had no hint of yellow on its feet. I've posted a series of images
and more detailed comments here:
http://staff.jccc.edu/dseibel/birds/BLPW.htm
I'd especially appreciate hearing if anyone knows of exceptions to the
rule that Blackpolls always have yellow soles.
Thanks,
David Seibel
Lenexa, Kansas USA
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Subject: Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Nick Komar <quetzal65(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 6:27pm
Juv or 1st basic California Gull would be brown on the underparts (like
American Herring Gull and Thayer's Gull), not white like the Arizona bird.
Nick Komar
Fort Collins CO
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: David Seibel <dseibel(AT)JCCC.EDU>
Date: 13 Dec 2006 10:36pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Thanks, Bruce. I'm sure you have seen a lot more Bay-breasted Warblers =
than I have, but your descriptions jibe very well with what I've =
observed. Still, I have a hard time making this bird into a pure =
Bay-breasted. Do you happen to know if either species normally has a =
thin white eyering (broken only by the thin dark eyeline), as on this =
bird? What puzzles me most is the distinct (though very fine) _black_ =
streaks or stippling on the sides and even extending toward the center =
of the breast. Does any plumage of Bay-breasted ever have black =
streaking like this? Also, aren't the belly and undertail coverts =
awfully white for a Bay-breasted? There is a very faint yellowish wash =
on a few of the undertail coverts, but most of the feathers are pure =
white. How often do you see that in Bay-breasted? Finally, what about =
the striped appearance of the greater secondary coverts caused by the =
alternating dark and pale webs? Is that not a reliable character for =
Blackpoll?
=20
I've received private e-mails pointing out additional reasons that it =
doesn't look quite right for a Bay-breasted: the wash on the vent is =
not buff or "pale bay," but olive; there are faint streaks along the =
flanks; and there appears to be a distinct color break (dark to pale) =
between the upper surface of the toes and the "soles," even if not =
actually yellow. I don't know that the last point is significant, as it =
seems that most birds' toes look paler on the underside because of the =
difference in texture and size of the scales, but it's all food for =
thought.
=20
For anyone just joining the discussion, photos are here: =
http://staff.jccc.edu/dseibel/birds/BLPW.htm =
<http://staff.jccc.edu/dseibel/birds/BLPW.htm>=20
=20
Let me know if you need to see a tighter crop on any of the images; =
they're all full frame as posted.
=20
David Seibel
Lenexa, Kansas USA
=20
=20
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto =
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and =
is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or =
entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and =
state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader =
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that =
retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is =
strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please =
immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently =
delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
=20
=20
________________________________
=20
From: Bruce Mactavish [mailto:bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wed 12/13/2006 5:24 PM
To: David Seibel; BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
Very interesting warbler that upon on initial reaction I assigned as a =
possible hybrid Blackpoll x Bay-breasted. In eastern Newfoundland =
Blackpoll Warbler is by far the most abundant warbler observed during =
migration mid August to early September. Flocks by the score are =
routine. It is a nuisance bird while seeking southern vagrant warblers. =
The thick uniform pearly gray legs and large feet of your bird are =
totally Bay-breasted. Blackpolls in fall have thin brownish legs with =
yellowish feet, brightest on the soles, yellow can extend up backs of =
legs. The thick legs, heavy feet and relatively heavy bill are =
characteristics of the robust Bay-breasted Warbler. The clear green =
head and sides of neck are Bay-breasted. The wash of colour over the =
vent is all Bay-breasted. In fact the more one looks the less one sees =
any Blackpoll blood in this bird. Could it not be a particularly dull =
Bay-breasted Warbler? Perhaps it is retaining some post-fledgling =
streaking? In the time is has taken to write this email I've changed my =
vote to Bay-breasted Warbler.
=20
Excellent photos.
=20
=20
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: David Sibley <david_sibley(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 14 Dec 2006 8:46am
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----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
A very confusing bird! I agree with Bruce that the pale gray legs and feet
of this bird are perfect for Bay-breasted and wrong for Blackpoll, and there
are other things about it that suggest Bay-breasted over Blackpoll.
However, the distinct dark streaks clustered across the lower breast are
absolutely wrong for Bay-breasted, the undertail coverts and lower belly are
too white for Bay-breasted (but the bright yellow across the vent is wrong
for Blackpoll), and the distinct pale edges on the greater secondary coverts
and the strong dark loral line are wrong for Bay-breasted.
What struck me first and still seems most odd is the tail pattern, with an
apparently all-white inner web of the outermost tail feathers, and (assuming
that what we're seeing is the next-to-outermost tail feather showing through
the white outermost) a strange pattern of white curving up along the inner
edge of that feather. I think these patterns are wrong for both Bay-breasted
and Blackpoll.
Based on the mixed Bay-breasted and Blackpoll characteristics, I think we're
forced to consider the possibility of a hybrid, and the tail pattern
suggests that we should look outside of those two species. Assuming that
either Blackpoll or Bay-breasted is one of the parents I've considered
Black-throated Green, Cape May, Cerulean, Pine, Yellow-rumped and others as
the second parent. So far I think Bay-breasted x Black-throated Green is the
best fit, but none of these are entirely satisfactory. More study is needed!
David Sibley
Concord MA
_____
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Seibel
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:34 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
Thanks, Bruce. I'm sure you have seen a lot more Bay-breasted Warblers than
I have, but your descriptions jibe very well with what I've observed.
Still, I have a hard time making this bird into a pure Bay-breasted. Do you
happen to know if either species normally has a thin white eyering (broken
only by the thin dark eyeline), as on this bird? What puzzles me most is
the distinct (though very fine) _black_ streaks or stippling on the sides
and even extending toward the center of the breast. Does any plumage of
Bay-breasted ever have black streaking like this? Also, aren't the belly
and undertail coverts awfully white for a Bay-breasted? There is a very
faint yellowish wash on a few of the undertail coverts, but most of the
feathers are pure white. How often do you see that in Bay-breasted?
Finally, what about the striped appearance of the greater secondary coverts
caused by the alternating dark and pale webs? Is that not a reliable
character for Blackpoll?
I've received private e-mails pointing out additional reasons that it
doesn't look quite right for a Bay-breasted: the wash on the vent is not
buff or "pale bay," but olive; there are faint streaks along the flanks; and
there appears to be a distinct color break (dark to pale) between the upper
surface of the toes and the "soles," even if not actually yellow. I don't
know that the last point is significant, as it seems that most birds' toes
look paler on the underside because of the difference in texture and size of
the scales, but it's all food for thought.
For anyone just joining the discussion, photos are here:
http://staff.jccc.edu/dseibel/birds/BLPW.htm
Let me know if you need to see a tighter crop on any of the images; they're
all full frame as posted.
David Seibel
Lenexa, Kansas USA
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
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intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
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and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
attachments thereto. Thank you.
_____
From: Bruce Mactavish [mailto:bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wed 12/13/2006 5:24 PM
To: David Seibel; BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
Very interesting warbler that upon on initial reaction I assigned as a
possible hybrid Blackpoll x Bay-breasted. In eastern Newfoundland Blackpoll
Warbler is by far the most abundant warbler observed during migration mid
August to early September. Flocks by the score are routine. It is a nuisance
bird while seeking southern vagrant warblers. The thick uniform pearly gray
legs and large feet of your bird are totally Bay-breasted. Blackpolls in
fall have thin brownish legs with yellowish feet, brightest on the soles,
yellow can extend up backs of legs. The thick legs, heavy feet and
relatively heavy bill are characteristics of the robust Bay-breasted
Warbler. The clear green head and sides of neck are Bay-breasted. The wash
of colour over the vent is all Bay-breasted. In fact the more one looks the
less one sees any Blackpoll blood in this bird. Could it not be a
particularly dull Bay-breasted Warbler? Perhaps it is retaining some
post-fledgling streaking? In the time is has taken to write this email I've
changed my vote to Bay-breasted Warbler.
Excellent photos.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
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Subject: Re: Caribbean egret
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2006 10:47am
The egret looks very much like a Little Egret and I
suspect it is one, but it appears to be a juvenile
and, as noted by Martin Reid, they can be notoriously
difficult to identify. Some juvenile Snowy Egrets have
dark lores, thus closely resembling Little Egrets. The
forehead appears flat and looks more like Little
Egret, but at some angles Snowy Egrets can appear to
have similarly flat foreheads. In the website below
(with some outdated terms--herons apparently lack an
alternate plumage) I posted some photos several years
ago of what I'm fairly confident was a dark-lored,
flat-foreheaded juvenile Snowy Egret in Trinidad:
http://www.geocities.com/secaribbirds/idlittlesnowyegret
In my experience with both species in Trinidad, Tobago
and Barbados, most Little Egrets stand out as being
unmistakable (adults especially with long head plumes)
whereas others must be compared with nearby egrets to
be certain. When a dark-lored bird appears to be
similar in size and shape with nearby Snowies, I
dismiss it as a Snowy. Without the benefit of
comparing the length of the bill, forehead slope, and
size of the neck, body and legs, I don't think the
identity of this bird from Bonaire can be determined
with confidence. However, there are two recent records
of Little Egret from Aruba by Steven Mlodinow, so it
can be expected to show up in nearby Bonaire.
Floyd Hayes
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: David Seibel <dseibel(AT)JCCC.EDU>
Date: 14 Dec 2006 11:10am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
David,
=20
Thanks for your insightful comments. I was puzzled by the tail pattern =
too, but everything else looked so much like a mix of Blackpoll and =
Bay-breasted characters that I didn't venture beyond those two. It =
might be helpful to see the tail pattern more clearly, so I've added a =
tighter crop of the tail and undertail coverts here:
=20
http://staff.jccc.net/dseibel/birds/BLPW.htm#tail
=20
"Votes" keep coming in to me privately, and so far it's about a =
three-way tie among BLPW, BBWA, and hybrid. You're the first to suggest =
a different species as a parent, though!
=20
David Seibel
Lenexa, KS USA
=20
=20
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("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and =
is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or =
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state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader =
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that =
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Subject: Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2006 11:13am
Yesterday I received two private replies (from
northern California birders) to my query about how
long dark bill coloration can be retained in 1st-cycle
California Gulls (see below). I note that Malling
Olsen and Larsson state that the base of the bill is
pink by October. I'd be curious to know if anybody has
seen a mostly dark-billed first-cycle California Gull
later than October.
RESPONSE 1: I paid a lot of attention to this question
while on the Farallones, as we had these anomalous
records of juvenile Mew Gulls with black bills in
August that I wanted to be sure were not Californias.
By the time juv Californias start showing up at the
Farallones, as early as late July, almost all have
pink bases to the bill. I saw a few birds with "black"
bills (most actually with horn color at least showing
up at the base) through about Aug 10th. After that I
have never seen one with a black or mostly-black bill.
RESPONSE 2: When young California Gulls (nominate
cal.) hit the coast in mid- to late July, they have
all-black bills. Before long they pale out, leaving
the dark tip. I think it would be extraordinary and
bizarre for one to still have an all-black bill. It
would be a fluke individual for sure.
Floyd Hayes
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Subject: Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Chris Corben <corben(AT)HOARYBAT.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2006 2:25pm
I would like to add a slightly different viewpoint about California Gulls
having black bills.
Over the years, I saw occasional examples of California Gulls which retained
all black, or nearly all black, bills through winter and even as late as
February. This was at Petaluma, north of San Francisco Bay, an area where
California Gulls are abundant, and easy to observe at close range. The
black-billed examples were very much the exception! One example I remember
from late winter also showed very little, if any molt out of juvenal
plumage, so it was very much a freak in that respect also.
There will be exceptions to every rule which is why making an ID on a single
character is very risky. On the other hand, the Arizona bird does not look
like a California Gull to me with so much white on the outer tail feathers,
and the head and bill look wrong for CAGU in my opinion.
Cheers, Chris.
Chris Corben
corben(AT)hoarybat.com
www.hoarybat.com
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Subject: Re: Arizona Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2006 2:30pm
I received a private reply assuring me that
first-cycle California Gulls from higher lattitudes /
altitudes can retain mostly dark bill coloration
beyond October. The reason I asked this question in
the first place was because I thought I saw one such
gull at Clear Lake, CA, on 18 November. But after
seeing photos of the Arizona gull (whose identity I am
not questioning), I wondered whether I might have
overlooked a Lesser Black-backed Gull. Here is the
reply:
I see a few CAGUs annually around Thanksgiving with
mostly black bills here in Idaho. Not a majority by
any means but they aren't unusual. Close inspection
usually (always?) reveals some paling at the base of
the bill but from a distance they appear all black.
Maybe they are hatched later here so they mature later
in the fall? I have a breeding colony close to home
that's over 6000 feet. Juvs fledge in late July or
early Aug, I think. Haven't spent enough time to nail
down actual fledging dates but I had a juv that was
still unable to fly on 8/7/05 and another that flew
poorly and didn't have completely grown primaries.
Hope this is helpful.
Floyd Hayes
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Subject: Re: Caribbean egret
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 14 Dec 2006 5:33pm
Well just to make it a little more confused below is a post from Dan
Lane.
>This looks to me like a regular non-breeding or immature white-morph
Reddish Egret, not like a Little/Snowy/Reef
>type at all. Too bad the legs are not visible.
>Sorry for not posting to ID Frontiers, but I am not a member of that
group, I simply read it on Birdingonthe.net. Feel
>free to post this comment there if you wish.
>Best wishes and good birding,
>Dan Lane
I think the bill is a bit too substantial for Snowy and Dan's note
struck me
in a "oh yeah - hadn't even considered that" kind of way.
Looking at it again the head neck also seem thick for Snowy.
The original slide is stamped Apr. 1980 so chances are it was taken in
the
early part of that year.
Also the bird still has down on the head. I assumed it was a local
breeder
and circumstantial evidence suggest that to be the case.
Not sure if Little Egret has ever bred on Bonaire, or how likely it
would be
for a very young bird to disperse to Bonaire and not lose the down on
the head.
Too bad there is not more info on the picture and that legs are not
visible,
but I think Dan may be correct.
Thanks to those who commented.
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
http://vireo.acnatsci.org
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
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Subject: Problems with NGS-5
From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker(AT)ZIPCON.NET>
Date: 14 Dec 2006 5:46pm
HI:
One person on another listserver noticed problems with the new 5th
edition of the National Geographic Guide. He noticed the index has errors:
either birds are missing from it or are repeated. Has anyone else noticed
this OR any other problems with the new edition?
--
Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
A.K.A.: "Birdbooker"
"Rallidae all the way!"
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 14 Dec 2006 8:26pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all:
After going over the pix again, I have to agree with David S. However, I
thought that I'd throw in some other bits of info and some thoughts into the
mix. The bird is apparently an adult (note the gray-fringed, blackish primary
coverts). With the age fairly certain, the number of possibilities declines
dramatically, particularly considering the lime green of the upperparts.
That color caused me to consider Cerulean as a parent, but I don't think that
that works for all features. A friend, Mark Peterson, threw in the possibility
of Chestnut-sided x Blackpoll, and that combo does a fairly good job at
explaining the combination of features of the mystery bird. I also want to
point
out that streaked crown should rule out some other options. So, an adult
female warbler with thin black streaking below, thin black streaking on a green
crown, an extensively-white tail pattern, and lime green upperparts. I've
probably overlooked some important bit that rules out the CSWA x BLPW
possibility, but.... Any other thoughts?
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: Christopher Vogel <glaucidium(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2006 8:52pm
Actually, the faint greenish wash to the vent/thigh
region is what made me think Chestnut-sided once the
idea of hybrid got invoked. While a Black-throated
green shares this feature, nothing else about the tail
resembles that of a Black-throated Green. However,
while the bird is a bit on the bland side in terms of
patterning (ie, the eyeline is dumbed down causing it
to look not quite so mean as a good Blackpoll, the
darts/chevrons of breast streaking are not that
strong,& the throat especially is a bit pale) I see
little which is inconsistent with the tail pattern and
shape being that of a Blackpoll. I'd wager it is
indeed just a Blackpoll Warbler, perhaps a little on
the xanthistic side, or a bit lacking in darks, or a
bit of both, but I think it is a Blackpoll Warbler.
Cheers
CJV
Cape May, NJ
--- GreatGrayOwl(AT)AOL.COM wrote:
> Hi all:
>
> After going over the pix again, I have to agree with
> David S. However, I
> thought that I'd throw in some other bits of info
> and some thoughts into the
> mix. The bird is apparently an adult (note the
> gray-fringed, blackish primary
> coverts). With the age fairly certain, the number
> of possibilities declines
> dramatically, particularly considering the lime
> green of the upperparts.
> That color caused me to consider Cerulean as a
> parent, but I don't think that
> that works for all features. A friend, Mark
> Peterson, threw in the possibility
> of Chestnut-sided x Blackpoll, and that combo does a
> fairly good job at
> explaining the combination of features of the
> mystery bird. I also want to point
> out that streaked crown should rule out some other
> options. So, an adult
> female warbler with thin black streaking below,
> thin black streaking on a green
> crown, an extensively-white tail pattern, and lime
> green upperparts. I've
> probably overlooked some important bit that rules
> out the CSWA x BLPW
> possibility, but.... Any other thoughts?
>
> Tony Leukering
> Brighton, CO
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
>
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: rsheil <rsheil(AT)JUNO.COM>
Date: 15 Dec 2006 8:22am
An interesting warbler but my vote goes to a bright greenish Blackpoll,
I think the most likely alternative. I suppose a hybrid is a possibility
but I don't see any strong evidence to invoke it. The black streaks on the
breast, flanks, and crown, along with the white undertail coverts eliminates
Bay-breasted. The underside of the feet actually is pale yellowish as is a
very narrow strip along the underside of the tarsi (see esp. photos #17, 18,
and 19 among others, in the series).
Check out the similarly plumaged Blackpoll (Bird #37) captured at Holiday
Beach Migration Observatory in Ontario, at
http://www.hbmo.org/BandingTest/banderquizAnswers.php
That bird, with bright yellow feet, is also very greenish yellow, and has a
similar yellowish wash across the vent.
Richard Heil
S. Peabody, MA
rsheil(AT)juno.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Seibel" <dseibel(AT)JCCC.EDU>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
Thanks, Bruce. I'm sure you have seen a lot more Bay-breasted Warblers than
I have, but your descriptions jibe very well with what I've observed.
Still, I have a hard time making this bird into a pure Bay-breasted. Do you
happen to know if either species normally has a thin white eyering (broken
only by the thin dark eyeline), as on this bird? What puzzles me most is
the distinct (though very fine) _black_ streaks or stippling on the sides
and even extending toward the center of the breast. Does any plumage of
Bay-breasted ever have black streaking like this? Also, aren't the belly
and undertail coverts awfully white for a Bay-breasted? There is a very
faint yellowish wash on a few of the undertail coverts, but most of the
feathers are pure white. How often do you see that in Bay-breasted?
Finally, what about the striped appearance of the greater secondary coverts
caused by the alternating dark and pale webs? Is that not a reliable
character for Blackpoll?
I've received private e-mails pointing out additional reasons that it
doesn't look quite right for a Bay-breasted: the wash on the vent is not
buff or "pale bay," but olive; there are faint streaks along the flanks; and
there appears to be a distinct color break (dark to pale) between the upper
surface of the toes and the "soles," even if not actually yellow. I don't
know that the last point is significant, as it seems that most birds' toes
look paler on the underside because of the difference in texture and size of
the scales, but it's all food for thought.
For anyone just joining the discussion, photos are here:
http://staff.jccc.edu/dseibel/birds/BLPW.htm
<http://staff.jccc.edu/dseibel/birds/BLPW.htm>
Let me know if you need to see a tighter crop on any of the images; they're
all full frame as posted.
David Seibel
Lenexa, Kansas USA
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________________________________
From: Bruce Mactavish [mailto:bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wed 12/13/2006 5:24 PM
To: David Seibel; BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
Very interesting warbler that upon on initial reaction I assigned as a
possible hybrid Blackpoll x Bay-breasted. In eastern Newfoundland Blackpoll
Warbler is by far the most abundant warbler observed during migration mid
August to early September. Flocks by the score are routine. It is a nuisance
bird while seeking southern vagrant warblers. The thick uniform pearly gray
legs and large feet of your bird are totally Bay-breasted. Blackpolls in
fall have thin brownish legs with yellowish feet, brightest on the soles,
yellow can extend up backs of legs. The thick legs, heavy feet and
relatively heavy bill are characteristics of the robust Bay-breasted
Warbler. The clear green head and sides of neck are Bay-breasted. The wash
of colour over the vent is all Bay-breasted. In fact the more one looks the
less one sees any Blackpoll blood in this bird. Could it not be a
particularly dull Bay-breasted Warbler? Perhaps it is retaining some
post-fledgling streaking? In the time is has taken to write this email I've
changed my vote to Bay-breasted Warbler.
Excellent photos.
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 15 Dec 2006 9:30am
The following comment is from Tom Schultz, one of the artists for the Warbler
Field Guide from the Peterson Series-
John Idzikowski, Milwaukee
_____
My impression of the bird (by the way, that's a nice array of photos!) is that
it shows characteristics that seem largely consistent
with Bay-breasted. Many of these features have been mentioned by others, but my
listing would include:
- Brighter greenish upperparts and sides of neck and face (as opposed to duller
olive for Blackpoll).
- Dark feet, with no yellow on soles (or elsewhere on feet).
- Less conspicuous eye-stripe.
- Hints of buffy coloration in flanks, upper breast, and base of undertail
coverts. A Blackpoll would generally show more of a pure
lemony yellow in the underparts -- especially the neck sides and upper breast.
Unfortunately, the impression of this color varies
from photo to photo here (perhaps due to changes in reflected light?), so it is
less certain than might be hoped, but in most cases
I get the suggestion of some buffy tinting.
One feature that is helpful with fall birds that I don't believe is mentioned in
the field guide (I illustrated this distinction in
my figures, but unfortunately due to the relatively small reproduction size it
doesn't show up very well in the book) is that fall
Blackpolls have bi-colored bills that have some yellowish along the cutting edge
and at the base of the lower mandible.
Bay-breasteds are also bi-colored but typically have pinkish or flesh-colored
tints in these areas. This bird appears to match the
latter pattern. (I have found that these bill color differences are consistent
with the toe/foot pad color distinctions between the
two species, which can be helpful as a memory aid.)
In doing the specimen research, we found that a small percentage of
Bay-breasteds can have dusky streaking or "stippling" on the
breast sides. There is a line in the book that mentions this. Typically,
however, most fall "Baypolls" that show dark or dusky
breast streaks will be Blackpolls. As a result, other plumage and soft part
characteristics must also be considered for individuals
that show these. This individual is likely at the extreme end of the
variability scale for this feature for a Bay-breasted.
Tail spots can be somewhat variable by age. In the Warblers field guide we were
limited to showing primarily adult male undertail
patterns, so they might not be identical in all age/sex classes. Because of
this variation, this feature might not be overly
helpful or diagnostic.
As mentioned, the dark breast streaks and primarily white undertail coverts
(although there is definitely a fairly strong buffy wash
across the vent) could suggest possible hybridization with Blackpoll, as might
the indefinite tone of yellow (if determined to be
less buffy) in the upper breast. This might indeed be a possibility, although
if so (and this would be impossible to prove or
disprove), I might contend that it is most likely a second-generation backcross
that shows features of predominantly Bay-breasted
parentage. I would say that I don't see other warbler species in a possible
hybrid mix.
As you may have gathered, my vote would be for Bay-breasted, but I feel that the
possibility for some Blackpoll hybrid influence
cannot be ruled out.
Tom Schultz
trschultz(AT)vbe.com
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 15 Dec 2006 9:31am
Richard,
Since you posted a link to a photo that I took of a bird I banded at Holiday
Beach, I guess I'll have to reply :-) That bird's feet were indeed entirely
yellow, but we do capture many Blackpolls where only the soles of the feet,
and a very narrow strip up the rear of the tarsus is yellow. The feet of the
"mystery warbler" do not appear to show any yellow, and as Bruce noted are
thicker and more bluish than is typical for Blackpoll. In particular, the
19th photo from the top shows a bird (jumping up to another branch) with
pale grayish soles, not yellow, at least on my monitor. Also, most of the
photos show tail spots quite unlike what I'm used to seeing in either
Bay-breasted or Blackpoll, but appear more like those on Chestnut-sided or
Black-throated Green. However, that 19th image again (and the final close-up
image) makes the spot on r6 look different from the other photos, and would
be similar the extreme (large) end of the scale for an adult male Blackpoll
or Bay-breasted. The yellowish wash on the vent is not something I've paid
much attention to on birds I've banded (300+ Blackpolls, <100 Bay-breasted),
but my sense is that the Holiday Beach bird is not particularly unusual in
that character. On my monitor, in the photos of the "mystery warbler" the
vent area looks yellowish in most photos, but buffy in a couple others. A
hybrid may be possible, but one question in my mind is which of the species
proposed actually breeds in the same habitat with Blackpoll? My preference
is to not venture an identification of this bird, but I offer the above to
further (confuse?) the discussion.
Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI 48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet
===============================================
Every day, the hummingbird eats its own weight in food.
You may wonder how it weighs the food. It doesn't.
It just eats another hummingbird.
---Steven Wright
----- Original Message -----
From: "rsheil" <rsheil(AT)JUNO.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
> An interesting warbler but my vote goes to a bright greenish Blackpoll,
> I think the most likely alternative. I suppose a hybrid is a possibility
> but I don't see any strong evidence to invoke it. The black streaks on
> the
> breast, flanks, and crown, along with the white undertail coverts
> eliminates
> Bay-breasted. The underside of the feet actually is pale yellowish as is
> a
> very narrow strip along the underside of the tarsi (see esp. photos #17,
> 18,
> and 19 among others, in the series).
> Check out the similarly plumaged Blackpoll (Bird #37) captured at Holiday
> Beach Migration Observatory in Ontario, at
> http://www.hbmo.org/BandingTest/banderquizAnswers.php
> That bird, with bright yellow feet, is also very greenish yellow, and has
> a
> similar yellowish wash across the vent.
>
> Richard Heil
> S. Peabody, MA
> rsheil(AT)juno.com
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Seibel" <dseibel(AT)JCCC.EDU>
> To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
>
>
> Thanks, Bruce. I'm sure you have seen a lot more Bay-breasted Warblers
> than
> I have, but your descriptions jibe very well with what I've observed.
> Still, I have a hard time making this bird into a pure Bay-breasted. Do
> you
> happen to know if either species normally has a thin white eyering (broken
> only by the thin dark eyeline), as on this bird? What puzzles me most is
> the distinct (though very fine) _black_ streaks or stippling on the sides
> and even extending toward the center of the breast. Does any plumage of
> Bay-breasted ever have black streaking like this? Also, aren't the belly
> and undertail coverts awfully white for a Bay-breasted? There is a very
> faint yellowish wash on a few of the undertail coverts, but most of the
> feathers are pure white. How often do you see that in Bay-breasted?
> Finally, what about the striped appearance of the greater secondary
> coverts
> caused by the alternating dark and pale webs? Is that not a reliable
> character for Blackpoll?
>
> I've received private e-mails pointing out additional reasons that it
> doesn't look quite right for a Bay-breasted: the wash on the vent is not
> buff or "pale bay," but olive; there are faint streaks along the flanks;
> and
> there appears to be a distinct color break (dark to pale) between the
> upper
> surface of the toes and the "soles," even if not actually yellow. I don't
> know that the last point is significant, as it seems that most birds' toes
> look paler on the underside because of the difference in texture and size
> of
> the scales, but it's all food for thought.
>
> For anyone just joining the discussion, photos are here:
> http://staff.jccc.edu/dseibel/birds/BLPW.htm
> <http://staff.jccc.edu/dseibel/birds/BLPW.htm>
>
> Let me know if you need to see a tighter crop on any of the images;
> they're
> all full frame as posted.
>
> David Seibel
> Lenexa, Kansas USA
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
> is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
> reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> From: Bruce Mactavish [mailto:bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Wed 12/13/2006 5:24 PM
> To: David Seibel; BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
>
>
> Very interesting warbler that upon on initial reaction I assigned as a
> possible hybrid Blackpoll x Bay-breasted. In eastern Newfoundland
> Blackpoll
> Warbler is by far the most abundant warbler observed during migration mid
> August to early September. Flocks by the score are routine. It is a
> nuisance
> bird while seeking southern vagrant warblers. The thick uniform pearly
> gray
> legs and large feet of your bird are totally Bay-breasted. Blackpolls in
> fall have thin brownish legs with yellowish feet, brightest on the soles,
> yellow can extend up backs of legs. The thick legs, heavy feet and
> relatively heavy bill are characteristics of the robust Bay-breasted
> Warbler. The clear green head and sides of neck are Bay-breasted. The
> wash
> of colour over the vent is all Bay-breasted. In fact the more one looks
> the
> less one sees any Blackpoll blood in this bird. Could it not be a
> particularly dull Bay-breasted Warbler? Perhaps it is retaining some
> post-fledgling streaking? In the time is has taken to write this email
> I've
> changed my vote to Bay-breasted Warbler.
>
> Excellent photos.
>
>
> Bruce Mactavish
> St. John's, Newfoundland
> Canada
> bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
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>
>
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 15 Dec 2006 9:39am
Could someone help clarify the age of these birds?
The Ontario bird is called a HY but I am having trouble seeing
a clear difference in the shape and condition of the primary
coverts between that bird and the KS bird.
I can't judge the shape of the outer rects on the ONT bird but the
tail does seem a bit more pointy tipped than the KS bird which
whose outer rectrices seems a good match to the HY/SY illustration
in Pyle's figure 139 B.
The overall pluamge condition of the KS bird seems a better fit for a HY bird.
If a HY bird it seems to be within range of Blackpoll and quite
similar to the ONT bird.
I think the color difference of the wing edging between the 2 is pretty
dramatic with the KS bird essentially shades of gray though there are
some yellow tones in a few of the pics. I think this is a good example
of how flash can dull subtle plumage tones.
Interestingly the wing edging is brightest yellow on the KS bird on the
second to last pic in the series (before the tail crop) which is the only
pic which shows any yellow tones on the legs (in that pic it is on the
back of the tarsi). I cannot see yellow on the feet though they
do look slightly paler and so may in fact be yellowish but washed out
by flash.
Great photos!
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
http://vireo.acnatsci.org
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
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Subject: BayPoll
From: sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 15 Dec 2006 9:53am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings All
I have little to add to the ID, per se. It has been a while since I've seen
large numbers of Blackpolls or Bay-breasteds; my gut instinct says Blackpoll, or
mostly so, but such reactions are not worth all that much.
What I do have to add is this: Some of the disagreement, I venture to say, is
based on differences in how these images appear on different screens.
Though I see a rather bright yellowish color just anterior to the vent, the vent
appears entirely bright white in most photos on both my home and work screens,
which have been adjusted for supposed accuracy. In some photos, I see a faint
yellowish on one or two true undertail covert photos.
My other comment is that the photos just seem odd period. The patches of yellow
seem very contrasty, blotchy, asymmetric. The streaking unusually crisp. The
oddities relate almost entirely to the underpart plumage, but such makes me wary
of trying to judge this bird at all, though the detailed analyses by folks such
as Tom and Dave have been very useful to my overall knowledge.
Cheers
SteveM
________________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: Dave Rintoul <drintoul(AT)KSU.EDU>
Date: 15 Dec 2006 10:17am
Another parameter to consider in this puzzle is the fact that, due to their
fall migration path (basically eastward across Canada to the Atlantic
Coast), Blackpoll Warblers are very rare in the interior of the US in the
fall. In fact, this species is on the Review list for the Kansas Bird
Records Committee only for fall sightings.
From a purely statistical point of view, Bay-Breasted is much more likely in
eastern Kansas on Sept 5.
And I agree with the others who have commented on the quality of the images!
Great pictures, David!
cheers
Dave
Dr. David A. Rintoul, Associate Director <drintoul at ksu dot edu>
Biology Division - KSU ICBM: 39.18N, 96.58W
Manhattan KS 66506-4901 VOX: 785-532-6615
http://www.ksu.edu/biology FAX: 785-532-6653
"Scientific rigor is all very well for the happy few, but too much like
canned spinach for the rest of us." - Reg Saner
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Subject: Re: Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia1(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 15 Dec 2006 10:29am
Matt,
The Ontario Blackpoll Warbler shown on the HBMO bander's quiz website was
aged hatch-year (HY) based on the state of skull ossification (it likely
showed distinct "windows"). In my experience, it can be very difficult to
assess the shape of the primary coverts on a bird with a folded wing, and of
course the definition of "pointed" needs to be calibrated to the species as
pointy in one may be blunt in another. As a bander, it takes me a little
while to reacquaint myself with the differences in each species, especially
the ones I don't handle that often. Similar to birders reacquainting
themselves with birdsong in the spring, or chip notes in the fall. There's
only one species (White-throated Sparrow) that I feel confident enough to
accurately assess the shape of the primary coverts on the first bird of each
season. All this is almost equally applicable to assessing "tapered" vs.
"truncate" shape of rectrics.
It is very likely that I have other photos of this individual, but it may
take me a little while to dig them out.
Allen Chartier
amazilia1(AT)comcast.net
1442 West River Park Drive
Inkster, MI 48141
Website: http://www.amazilia.net
Michigan HummerNet: http://www.amazilia.net/MIHummerNet
===============================================
Every day, the hummingbird eats its own weight in food.
You may wonder how it weighs the food. It doesn't.
It just eats another hummingbird.
---Steven Wright
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Sharp" <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Blackpoll vs Bay-breasted
Could someone help clarify the age of these birds?
The Ontario bird is called a HY but I am having trouble seeing
a clear difference in the shape and condition of the primary
coverts between that bird and the KS bird.
I can't judge the shape of the outer rects on the ONT bird but the
tail does seem a bit more pointy tipped than the KS bird which
whose outer rectrices seems a good match to the HY/SY illustration
in Pyle's figure 139 B.
The overall pluamge condition of the KS bird seems a better fit for a HY
bird.
If a HY bird it seems to be within range of Blackpoll and quite
similar to the ONT bird.
I think the color difference of the wing edging between the 2 is pretty
dramatic with the KS bird essentially shades of gray though there are
some yellow tones in a few of the pics. I think this is a good example
of how flash can dull subtle plumage tones.
Interestingly the wing edging is brightest yellow on the KS bird on the
second to last pic in the series (before the tail crop) which is the only
pic which shows any yellow tones on the legs (in that pic it is on the
back of the tarsi). I cannot see yellow on the feet though they
do look slightly paler and so may in fact be yellowish but washed out
by flash.
Great photos!
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
http://vireo.acnatsci.org
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
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Subject: Neotropical Cormorant - Why none in the east?
From: Brian Monk <MonkDVM(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 15 Dec 2006 7:15pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi y'all! I just recently moved to south Florida. As I do whenever I move,
I spend a considerable amount of time researching the area, and poring over
all relevant texts and materials of the natural history and bird life related
to my new home. Invariably, I come up with a list of species that I have
questions concerning distribution, current status, identification, etc. Most
of the time, someone has the answers to these questions, and so I turn to you.
The species I am currently baffled by is Neotropic Cormorant. When I lived
in the panhandle of Florida, I kept this bird on the edge of my
consciousness, as it breeds in western Louisiana which was only a 4 hour drive
westwards.
Now, the species is again found only several hours away (Cuba), and again
has not been recorded in south Florida. As far as I have asked, most birders
don't even have this bird on their "radar." Why?
I understand that the species is mostly confined to freshwater habitats, but
there seem to be plenty of these in S.FLA. Are the Straights of Florida
such a significant barrier to this species' vagrancy? That seems difficult to
believe, given its pattern of distribution in the Caribbean.
Lastly, where did the population on Cuba come from? I assume it's a relict
population left over from Cuba's migration through Central America. Is this
assumption valid, or did the population of Neotropic Cormorants on Cuba come
from somewhere else?
Brian Monk, DVM
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
"I strive to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am." P.J. O'Rourke
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Subject: Black or Markham's Storm-Petrel on Lima Pelagic
November 10, 2006
From: Gunnar Engblom <gengblom(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Dec 2006 12:16pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Dear all
I have uploaded a collage of the pics of Markham's/Black Storm-Petrel.
In the field we felt most of the birds we saw were Black, mostly due
to not very strong wingbars - and in some occasions due to bouncy
flight. But we also saw one or two birds with clearly strong wingbars
and 100% Markham's.
Now this is what I got in terms of photos:
http://www.birdingperu.com/picsfiles/photos.asp?idtipopic=3D1
The first two blurry pics (that are repeated just to fill the square)
are of one individual and the other 5 are of another individual.
I am looking forward to an interesting discussion on field/photo
separation of Black and Markham's Storm-Petrels.
From previous experience it seems that Black Storm-Petrel replace
Markham's SP when during our summer (right now) when warm waters start
pouring south. With the upcoming mild Ni=F1o, this should be even more
accentuated. However, the virtually unknown moult pattern of Markham's
makes it a bit dangerous to fully rely on the wing-carpal bar
difference.
We have a full day pelagic trip this coming Wednesday Dec 20 and
shorter trip on Dec 30. I shall try to get some more pictures then to
see if we can solve this puzzle.
The following full day Pelagic scheduled is on Jan 19.
Gunnar Engblom
www.kolibriexpeditions.com
Lima, Peru
--=20
Gunnar Engblom-Lima, Peru.
Kolibri Expeditions=96Birdwatching in South America. More Birds!
http://www.kolibriexpeditions.com
www.birding-peru.com - checklist and data-base. Record your sightings
on-line, forum, pictures, identification, Expedition Birding, etc.
Tel: +51 1 4765016 cel: 51-1-96437749 or 99007886
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Subject: Re: Black or Markham's Storm-Petrel on Lima
Pelagic November 10, 2006
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 16 Dec 2006 4:08pm
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Comparing your pictures with photographs of birds that I assumed were
Markham=B9s Storm Petrel seen between Nasca and Valparaiso between 8th and
10th November, I can see no difference either in structure or plumage.
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK
On 16/12/06 19:16, "Gunnar Engblom" <gengblom(AT)GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>=20
> Dear all
>=20
> I have uploaded a collage of the pics of Markham's/Black
> Storm-Petrel. In the field we felt most of the birds we saw were Black, m=
ostly
> due=20
> to not very strong wingbars - and in some occasions due to bouncy
> flight. But we also saw one or two birds with clearly strong wingbars and=
100%
> Markham's.
>=20
> Now this is what I got in terms of photos:
>=20
>=20
> http://www.birdingperu.com/picsfiles/photos.asp?idtipopic=3D1
> <http://www.birdingperu.com/picsfiles/photos.asp?idtipopic=3D1>
>=20
> The first two blurry pics (that are repeated just to fill the square)
> are of one individual and the other 5 are of another individual.
>=20
>=20
> I am looking forward to an interesting discussion on field/photo separati=
on of
> Black and Markham's Storm-Petrels.
>=20
> From previous experience it seems that Black Storm-Petrel replace Markham=
's SP
> when during our summer (right now) when warm waters start pouring south. =
With
> the upcoming mild Ni=F1o, this should be even more accentuated. However, th=
e
> virtually unknown moult pattern of
> Markham's makes it a bit dangerous to fully rely on the wing-carpal bar
> difference.=20
>=20
>=20
> We have a full day pelagic trip this coming Wednesday Dec 20 and shorter =
trip
> on Dec 30. I shall try to get some more pictures then to see if we can so=
lve
> this puzzle.=20
>=20
> The following full day Pelagic scheduled is on Jan 19.
>=20
> Gunnar Engblom
> www.kolibriexpeditions.com <http://www.kolibriexpeditions.com/>
> Lima, Peru
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Subject: Tundra or Trumpeter
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lloyd_Spitalnik?= <lloyd22(AT)NYC.RR.COM>
Date: 16 Dec 2006 5:55pm
Hi all,
Today, 12/16/06 a juvenile swan was seen and photographed in Central Park=
,
NYC. It was sitting on the park's reservoir which of course is fresh wate=
r.
After several conversations with both people who saw the bird and others =
who
have only seen my photos, http://www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com/v/Waterfowl=
/
there is still doubt as to whether this is a Tundra or Trumpeter. Any hel=
p
with the ID is greatly appreciated.
Lloyd Spitalnik
NYC
http://www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com
<p>
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<p>
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Subject: LBMU vs MAMU
From: SGMlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 16 Dec 2006 8:16pm
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Greetings All
The real title should be
"Things I learned while dipping on Long-billed Murrelet "
A CAUTIONARY TALE
A Long-billed Murrelet was found a week ago not far from my house, at Point
No Point, in nw. Washington. It had been reported throughout the week. About
20-30 of us gathered there today, under superb viewing conditions. Glassy water
and skies that varied from high overcast to weak, watery sunshine. Observers
looking north, sun mostly to the south. Excellent.
There were at least 4 MAMUs that showed what appeared to be partial alternate
plumage. Whether these birds were retaining alt plum or acquiring it early is
hard to say. In any case, in 3 of these, the neck collar was challenging to
see. In two (or perhaps three) of these birds the fact that the bird was partly
in alternate plumage was pretty obvious. However, the bird seen at day's end,
after most folks had gone, was most devious.
The neck collar was as inapparent as on any full alternate plumage MAMU I
have ever seen. And even when seen, one could easily convince oneself that these
faint paler areas were "nape ovals" rather than a partial collar (though in
reality, the position was wrong for a LBMU's nape ovals). The bird looked
sharply demarcated between dark and light. The uppersides actually looked a tad
darker than that of the normal basic-plumaged MAMU it appeared paired with.
There
was a straight (Xantus's or Craveri's-like) line going from bill past eye down
side of neck. Or Pacific Loon-like, if you wish. None of the little white
bump in front of the eye displayed by typical basic-plumaged MAMUs, the neck
collar difficult to discern, and the dark shoulder mark also difficult to
discern,
if present at all. The scaps were white/whitish, and not quite as obvious as
those on MAMU's, a mark that I've heard touted as useful for LBMU ID. Finally,
the underparts looked whitish -- but that is the key; they did NOT look
bright white, like a normal basic MAMU. Instead, the underparts looked vaguely
dusky. Not very dark, but clearly not the bright white of the nearby normal
basic-plumaged MAMUs. So, though the back looked darker than normal December
MAMUs,
the upperpart/underpart contrast was actually a bit diminished. The bird's
structure was identical to that of its partner.
Under average winter Washington viewing conditions, and if this bird was on
its own, it would have been extremely easy to call it a LBMU. Indeed, it was
rather similar to the bird I mentioned on this listserv from nearby Whidbey
Island in July or August in 2005. But who'd expect a funky partial alternate
MAMU
in Dec?! Again, I (we?) were saved by it being paired with a MAMU. I think
this emphasizes the importance of exceptional care in accepting LBMU records
from
coastal areas where MAMUs abound. Even realizing this was an atypical bird,
it took us a while to shake all doubts and be fully convinced it was indeed a
MAMU.
By the way, this is not to cast aspersions on this record as a whole. Most
folks who saw this bird said it was NOT paired (as were the vast majority of 350
or so MAMUs present at various points today), and at least one observer
mentioned the great contrast between upper parts and underparts.
MURRELET POSTURE
I have heard it asserted that LBMUs are more likely to swim with necks
outstretched than the MAMUs which are typically in a "neck-in" squat posture.
However, partly because of courtship, it was common (today) to see MAMUs
swimming
with next stretched out, bills tilted up. Not all birds were obviously involved
in social interactions.
UNDERWING COVERTS
An article in Western Birds (a year or two back) detailed the finding of an
alt plum LBMU in se WA during Aug. It also examined the validity of the
underwing covert mark for separating LBMU from MAMU in alt and basic plumage
both. As
I remember (sorry for being lazy, I should dig the actual article out), this
paper actually had pics from museum skins showing LBMUs with dark underwing
coverts and MAMUs with white on the underwing coverts. The conclusion was that
underwing covert color was worthless for ID.
I can't comment on LBMU underwing coverts. I've not looked at enough
specimens, and still have not had the pleasure of seeing a live bird. However,
since
that article came out, I've been very attentative to MAMUs in flight, and we
saw them in flight often today. I have yet to see white or significant pale on a
MAMUs underwing coverts. If it occurs, it is either very rare or not apparent
under usual field conditions, including the advantageous conditions
experienced today. I'd say seeing white/whitish underwing coverts would be
highly
supportive of the ID of LBMU from MAMU.
Best Wishes
Steven Mlodinow
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