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ID-FRONTIERS for January 28-31, 2007
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Re: Strange Mew? Gull | Dick Newell | Sun, 28 Jan 2007 | 3:55pm |
| Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA? | Geoffrey A. Williams | Mon, 29 Jan 2007 | 7:28am |
| Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA? | Giff Beaton | Mon, 29 Jan 2007 | 8:20am |
| Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA? | Matt Sharp | Mon, 29 Jan 2007 | 8:23am |
| Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA? | Jeff Gilligan | Mon, 29 Jan 2007 | 10:29am |
| Pennsylvania Empidonax Flycatcher | Nick Pulcinella | Mon, 29 Jan 2007 | 11:18am |
| Re: Strange Mew? Gull | Alvaro Jaramillo | Mon, 29 Jan 2007 | 3:29pm |
| Pennsylvania Empid | David Roemer | Mon, 29 Jan 2007 | 6:54pm |
| Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA? | DAVID IRONS | Mon, 29 Jan 2007 | 8:38pm |
| Florida Gulling and questions. | Alvaro Jaramillo | Mon, 29 Jan 2007 | 11:08pm |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | Norman D.van Swelm | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 6:00am |
| Canadian Eiders | Norman D.van Swelm | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 7:13am |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | Lethaby, Nick | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 8:19am |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | Matt Sharp | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 8:46am |
| Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA? | sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 9:15am |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | Geoffrey A. Williams | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 9:44am |
| Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA? | Phil Jeffrey | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 10:05am |
| Possible American Herring Gull in Denmark | Kenneth Rude Nielsen | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 12:42pm |
| IDing Common Eider to subspecies | Martin Reid | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 3:13pm |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | James P. Smith | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 6:47pm |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | Lethaby, Nick | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 7:08pm |
| Re: Possible American Herring Gull in Denmark | Kevin | Tue, 30 Jan 2007 | 7:48pm |
| Re: Possible American Herring Gull in Denmark | Dick Newell | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 2:00am |
| Re: Indiana jaeger | Jim Hengeveld | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 8:15am |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | Ruth and Richard Mie | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 8:35am |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | Lethaby, Nick | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 9:34am |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | Dick Newell | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 10:02am |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | Ruth and Richard Mie | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 10:06am |
| Re: Florida Gulling and questions. | Ruth and Richard Mie | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 10:12am |
| Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or indeterminate? | Wayne C. Weber | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 1:57pm |
| Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate? | GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 2:01pm |
| Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate? | greatgrayowl(AT)AOL.COM | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 2:22pm |
| Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate? | sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 2:35pm |
| Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate? | Steve Sosensky | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 3:18pm |
| Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate? | Joseph Morlan | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 4:16pm |
| Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate? | Mark Stackhouse | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 5:31pm |
| Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate? | Chuck Carlson | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 9:56pm |
| Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate? | GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM | Wed, 31 Jan 2007 | 10:14pm |
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Subject: Re: Strange Mew? Gull
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 28 Jan 2007 3:55pm
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Re:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/henicorhina/366584276/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/henicorhina/367590437/in/photostream/
If one looks at the overlap in grey-levels between Ring-billed and Mew, the
darkest Ring-billed recorded in both O&L and Howell (Birding magazine 2003)
is Kodak 5. Given that an observed maximum may well be less than a
population maximum, it is quite possible that Ring-billed could get as dark
as Kodak 6. Further, the palest Mew, by both researchers, is Kodak 5. So the
fact that this bird looks similar in grey-shade to accompanying Mew Gulls
does not exclude it being a Ring-billed. As the head-shape, iris-shade, bill
structure and pattern all look spot on for Ring-billed, I would suggest that
is what it is.
Similarly, the first Ring-billed for Japan also looked too dark, being
comparable in grey-shade to some of the Kamchatka Gulls it is with. See:
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/030228/RBG2.html
Although this bird has a bill-pattern spot on for Ring-billed, it not only
looks unusually dark but also its head-shape looks odd and its legs look
rather short for Ring-billed.
Perhaps there is a population of Ring-billed Gulls somewhere in the west
which is just a little different.
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK
On 24/1/07 23:06, "David Vander Pluym" <scre(AT)AOL.COM> wrote:
> On Jan 20, 2007 Oscar Johnson, Adam Searcy and I had a strange Mew Gull
(with
> about 30 more normal Mew Gulls) at Point Joe Monterey County, California.
The
> bird looked like a typical Mew (brachyrhynchus) in most respects, including
> wing pattern (within variation of the birds present), mantle coloration, and
> structure. The strange aspect was that it looked like it had a Ring-billed
> Gulls head stuck on it. Photos are here.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/henicorhina/366584276/
> There is another photo of it standing on the site as well. So far people have
> suggested Strange Mew (L. [c] brachyrhynchus), Common Gull (L. canus
> canus/heinei), Kamchatka Gull (L. [c.] kamtschatschensis), or a Ring-billed x
> Mew Gull. For the hybird I would think more intermediate features would be
> present and I would also have expected a darker mantle and larger structure
> for Kamchatka Gull, but I have no first hand expirence with any of these
other
> than Mew. Comments are most welcome.
>
> David Vander Pluym
> Santa Cruz, California
>
> Check out the new AOL
>
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> %3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom%2Fnewaol> . Most comprehensive set of free safety
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Subject: Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA?
From: "Geoffrey A. Williamson" <geoffrey.williamson(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 29 Jan 2007 7:28am
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I've placed the photo from Birding, along with another photo provided
by Hans Spiecker, at
http://home.comcast.net/~geoffrey.williamson/warbler.html
(Note that the issue of Birding in which the photo appears is the
most recent, volume 39 number 1. Steve's original subject line had a
typo with the vol. given as 30.)
Sincerely,
Geoff Williamson
--
Geoffrey A. Williamson
Chicago, IL
geoffrey.williamson(AT)comcast.net
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Subject: Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA?
From: Giff Beaton <giffbeaton(AT)MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: 29 Jan 2007 8:20am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Thanks to Geoff for getting the excellent originals of the Chicago warbler
up for us to see. clearly a Black-throated Green Warbler. And nice to see
the actual colors of the bird too. I would guess that it's a first fall
male, given the fairly extensive area of diffuse streaking, but can't rule
out adult female. In these shots you can just barely make out a couple of
dusky feathers in the throat. I am still surprised at how complete the
auricular patch is. Great shots!
Giff Beaton
Marietta GA
www.giffbeaton.com/warblers.htm
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Subject: Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA?
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 29 Jan 2007 8:23am
Wow, quite a difference. Clearly a
Black-throated Green.
I think the brownish round thinly edged pale
alula definitively ages this bird as HY. Given
the general weak markings it can safely be called
a female.
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
http://vireo.acnatsci.org
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
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Subject: Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA?
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
Date: 29 Jan 2007 10:29am
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
I haven=B9t been following the previous posts, but seeing these photos I am
sure it is not a Townsend=B9s Warbler, which I see frequently. It lacks the
necessary amount of yellow on the foreparts. Perhaps the face is a bit
darker than usual for a Black-throated Green Warbler (I don=B9t know), but it
certainly appears to be that species. We do see a few Hermit X Townsend=B9s
hybrids in Oregon, but I don=B9t see sufficient reason to suspect a
Black-throated Green X Townsend=B9s here. Jeff Gilligan, Portland, Oregon.
On 1/29/07 6:28 AM, "Geoffrey A. Williamson"
<geoffrey.williamson(AT)COMCAST.NET> wrote:
> I've placed the photo from Birding, along with another photo provided by =
Hans
> Spiecker, at
>=20
> http://home.comcast.net/~geoffrey.williamson/warbler.html
>=20
> (Note that the issue of Birding in which the photo appears is the most re=
cent,
> volume 39 number 1. Steve's original subject line had a typo with the vo=
l.
> given as 30.)
>=20
> Sincerely,
> Geoff Williamson
>=20
>=20
> --
> Geoffrey A. Williamson
> Chicago, IL=20
> geoffrey.williamson(AT)comcast.net
>=20
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbir=
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>=20
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>=20
>=20
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Subject: Pennsylvania Empidonax Flycatcher
From: Nick Pulcinella <nickpulcinella(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 29 Jan 2007 11:18am
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----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
ID Frontiers:
I am posting for Bob Schutsky who does not subscribe to this list.
Bob is requesting any comments on an empidonax flycatcher found on the =
Southern Lancaster Co., PA
CBC 12/17/2006.=20
Photos and comments can be viewed at this web link.
http://www.birdtreks.com/solanco/EmpidonaxatMuddyRun.html
Thanks,
Nick Pulcinella
West Chester, PA
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Subject: Re: Strange Mew? Gull
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 29 Jan 2007 3:29pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Dick et al.
Ring-billed Gulls do not seem to show any obvious geographic variation
in the continent, and that is saying a lot for a gull. Even their
vocalizations do not seem to be noticeably different between West Coast,
east Coast and Great lakes. It would be nice to have more photos and
analysis from the observers, to see which options can be clearly eliminated.
A bird like this showed up in Palo Alto, California several years back, the
bird showed features of Mew and Ring-billed and was initially thought to be
a Kamchatka but issues about it were just off. I went to see it a few times
and to me it was a hybrid Ring-billed x Mew, a hybrid that has not been
published as of yet. I was able to grab a recording of the long call and
interestingly it was clearly different from that of a Ring-billed Gull, and
perhaps could be categorized as intermediate between Ring-billed and Mew. I
didn't have too much vocal material for Mew at the time (they are pretty
silent here in winter) but since then I made some good recordings in Alaska
and I should compare them and publish this thing once and for all!
Regards
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
_____
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dick Newell
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:52 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Mew? Gull
Re:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/henicorhina/366584276/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/henicorhina/367590437/in/photostream/
If one looks at the overlap in grey-levels between Ring-billed and Mew, the
darkest Ring-billed recorded in both O&L and Howell (Birding magazine 2003)
is Kodak 5. Given that an observed maximum may well be less than a
population maximum, it is quite possible that Ring-billed could get as dark
as Kodak 6. Further, the palest Mew, by both researchers, is Kodak 5. So the
fact that this bird looks similar in grey-shade to accompanying Mew Gulls
does not exclude it being a Ring-billed. As the head-shape, iris-shade, bill
structure and pattern all look spot on for Ring-billed, I would suggest that
is what it is.
Similarly, the first Ring-billed for Japan also looked too dark, being
comparable in grey-shade to some of the Kamchatka Gulls it is with. See:
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/030228/RBG2.html
Although this bird has a bill-pattern spot on for Ring-billed, it not only
looks unusually dark but also its head-shape looks odd and its legs look
rather short for Ring-billed.
Perhaps there is a population of Ring-billed Gulls somewhere in the west
which is just a little different.
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK
On 24/1/07 23:06, "David Vander Pluym" <scre(AT)AOL.COM> wrote:
On Jan 20, 2007 Oscar Johnson, Adam Searcy and I had a strange Mew Gull
(with about 30 more normal Mew Gulls) at Point Joe Monterey County,
California. The bird looked like a typical Mew (brachyrhynchus) in most
respects, including wing pattern (within variation of the birds present),
mantle coloration, and structure. The strange aspect was that it looked
like it had a Ring-billed Gulls head stuck on it. Photos are here.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/henicorhina/366584276/
There is another photo of it standing on the site as well. So far people
have suggested Strange Mew (L. [c] brachyrhynchus), Common Gull (L. canus
canus/heinei), Kamchatka Gull (L. [c.] kamtschatschensis), or a Ring-billed
x Mew Gull. For the hybird I would think more intermediate features would
be present and I would also have expected a darker mantle and larger
structure for Kamchatka Gull, but I have no first hand expirence with any of
these other than Mew. Comments are most welcome.
David Vander Pluym
Santa Cruz, California
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Subject: Pennsylvania Empid
From: David Roemer <dlroemer(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 29 Jan 2007 6:54pm
The bird looks like a Least to me as I don't see any
features out of range for this species. Although not
mentioned in field guides, Least regularly shows
somewhat of an extension of the eyering behind the
eye.
David L. Roemer
Bowling Green, KY.
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Subject: Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA?
From: DAVID IRONS <llsdirons(AT)MSN.COM>
Date: 29 Jan 2007 8:38pm
Greetings All,
Like Jeff, I had not seen these images previously and had only barely
followed the thread of previous posts. In this case I have to completely
agree with those who feel this bird is a BTG with slightly darker than
average auriculars. For me the rather broad black streaking on whitish
background of the breast and flanks makes this a BTG. Even on the dullest
immature female Townsend's the the streaks on the sides of the breast and
most of the way down the flanks are on yellow not white background. Also
the cluster of streaking at the sides of the breast forms almost a solid
dark patch as expected on BTG. Even adult Townsend's still look somewhat
'tiger' striped and don't show a solid dark area. Young Townsend's have
narrower streaks accentuating the yellow rather than the black.
I see hundreds of Townsend's Warblers each year, and at least 50% are seen
during the winter months. Many are very dull hatch year females. In
December 2003, I lucked onto a hatch year female BTG near my home in Eugene,
OR. It looked very much like this bird. It was slightly less streaked and
the auriculars were not quite as dark. At first glance, I thought it was an
immature female Hermit (rare here in Winter) until I noticed the dark
streaking on white flanks and breast. A brief aside here, young Hermits
show more dark in the auriculars than depicted in most field guides. The
bird hung around for a week with flock of about 20 TOWA and was seen by
dozens of other birders. It was a rather unique opportunity to make direct
comparisons between these two species. In total I watched the BTG for
several hours.
Dave Irons
Eugene, OR
>From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
>Reply-To: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgill(AT)TELEPORT.COM>
>To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA?
>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:39:18 -0800
>
>I havenąt been following the previous posts, but seeing these photos I am
>sure it is not a Townsendąs Warbler, which I see frequently. It lacks the
>necessary amount of yellow on the foreparts. Perhaps the face is a bit
>darker than usual for a Black-throated Green Warbler (I donąt know), but it
>certainly appears to be that species. We do see a few Hermit X Townsendąs
>hybrids in Oregon, but I donąt see sufficient reason to suspect a
>Black-throated Green X Townsendąs here. Jeff Gilligan, Portland, Oregon.
>
>On 1/29/07 6:28 AM, "Geoffrey A. Williamson"
><geoffrey.williamson(AT)COMCAST.NET> wrote:
>
> > I've placed the photo from Birding, along with another photo provided by
>Hans
> > Spiecker, at
> >
> > http://home.comcast.net/~geoffrey.williamson/warbler.html
> >
> > (Note that the issue of Birding in which the photo appears is the most
>recent,
> > volume 39 number 1. Steve's original subject line had a typo with the
>vol.
> > given as 30.)
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Geoff Williamson
> >
> >
> > --
> > Geoffrey A. Williamson
> > Chicago, IL
> > geoffrey.williamson(AT)comcast.net
> >
> > Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
>http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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Subject: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 29 Jan 2007 11:08pm
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Folks
I just got back from the Space Coast Bird Festival in Titusville, Florida
and had some good gulling there. I have put together a page:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
with photos of several odd birds. One may be a hybrid Lesser Black-backed x
Herring gull. Is this a well known hybrid in eastern North America? I don't
recall hearing of any before, but I may not have been paying attention. The
second bird is a juvenile showing a mix of characters which I certainly
found confusing. Could this actually be any type of European Herring Gull?
An extremely dark-winged Thayer's Gull? Finally, the most straight forward
bird was a Nelson's Gull.
A few general observations deem comment.
Herring Gulls - compared to our western ones, the Florida birds consistently
show two mirrors rather than one. Many second cycle Florida birds showed
extensive white on coverts, giving them a frosty look which I don't see here
on the West Coast.
Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Adults seem to be finishing growing P9-10 at this
time (at least two which I studied), a rather late molt for any gull in
North America. I imagine that this is late for European winterers? How does
it compare to birds wintering at equivalent latitudes in the Old World? At
least one first cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull I saw had replaced some
median coverts. Again, this is unusual for North American gulls of this age.
Cheers to Bob Wallace, Michael Brothers for getting me out to the Volusia
County Landfill, and to Jeff Bouton, Adam Kent, and Andy Wraithmell for
their assistance at Jetty Park.
Thanks for any comments.
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
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Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 6:00am
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The juvenile bird Alvaro and friends found in Florida looks similar to the
gull I found in December in the Port of Rotterdam and which was discussed on ID
Frontiers, see:
http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/gulls/herringgullspicts.htm
It is certainly not a known type of European Herring Gull (the dark tail
f.i.is un-European like), I agree with Alvaro this type of gull may have an
arctic origin to which Martin Reid has hinted as well.
The primary moult Alvaro noticed in adult Lesser Black-backed Gulls is normal
for birds wintering in the Mediterranean and NW and W Africa.
Volusia Landfill looks excellent for finding colour-ringed Lesser
Black-backs!
Norman
Alvaro Jaramillo wrote: I just got back from the Space Coast Bird Festival in
Titusville, Florida and had some good gulling there. I have put together a page:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
with photos of several odd birds. One may be a hybrid Lesser Black-backed x
Herring gull. Is this a well known hybrid in eastern North America? I don't
recall hearing of any before, but I may not have been paying attention. The
second bird is a juvenile showing a mix of characters which I certainly found
confusing. Could this actually be any type of European Herring Gull? An
extremely dark-winged Thayer's Gull? Finally, the most straight forward bird was
a Nelson's Gull.
A few general observations deem comment.
Herring Gulls - compared to our western ones, the Florida birds consistently
show two mirrors rather than one. Many second cycle Florida birds showed
extensive white on coverts, giving them a frosty look which I don't see here on
the West Coast.
Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Adults seem to be finishing growing P9-10 at this
time (at least two which I studied), a rather late molt for any gull in North
America. I imagine that this is late for European winterers? How does it compare
to birds wintering at equivalent latitudes in the Old World? At least one first
cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull I saw had replaced some median coverts. Again,
this is unusual for North American gulls of this age.
Cheers to Bob Wallace, Michael Brothers for getting me out to the Volusia
County Landfill, and to Jeff Bouton, Adam Kent, and Andy Wraithmell for their
assistance at Jetty Park.
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Subject: Canadian Eiders
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 7:13am
have reached the Dutch coast this winter, see:
http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/eiders%20canadian%20i%20t%20north%20sea/indexCanadian%20Eiders%20in%20the%20North%20Sea.htm
Have they been seen elsewhere along the coasts of the Atlantic in recent
weeks?
Norman
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Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 8:19am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
I know the mirror difference (1 on W. birds, 2 on E. birds) has been
raised before so I think this is pretty standard differentiator,
although subject to individual variation.
=20
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
=20
________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alvaro Jaramillo
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:08 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
=20
Folks
=20
I just got back from the Space Coast Bird Festival in Titusville,
Florida and had some good gulling there. I have put together a page:
=20
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
=20
with photos of several odd birds. One may be a hybrid Lesser
Black-backed x Herring gull. Is this a well known hybrid in eastern
North America? I don't recall hearing of any before, but I may not have
been paying attention. The second bird is a juvenile showing a mix of
characters which I certainly found confusing. Could this actually be any
type of European Herring Gull? An extremely dark-winged Thayer's Gull?
Finally, the most straight forward bird was a Nelson's Gull.=20
=20
A few general observations deem comment.=20
=20
Herring Gulls - compared to our western ones, the Florida birds
consistently show two mirrors rather than one. Many second cycle Florida
birds showed extensive white on coverts, giving them a frosty look which
I don't see here on the West Coast.=20
=20
Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Adults seem to be finishing growing P9-10 at
this time (at least two which I studied), a rather late molt for any
gull in North America. I imagine that this is late for European
winterers? How does it compare to birds wintering at equivalent
latitudes in the Old World? At least one first cycle Lesser Black-backed
Gull I saw had replaced some median coverts. Again, this is unusual for
North American gulls of this age.=20
=20
Cheers to Bob Wallace, Michael Brothers for getting me out to the
Volusia County Landfill, and to Jeff Bouton, Adam Kent, and Andy
Wraithmell for their assistance at Jetty Park.=20
=20
Thanks for any comments.=20
=20
Al
=20
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
=20
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
=20
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Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: Matt Sharp <sharp(AT)ACNATSCI.ORG>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 8:46am
Alvaro, et al
Presumed hybrid LBBGxHEGU have been found annually here in the PA/NJ
area since at least 2000, which is when I personally started looking
hard enough
to recognize them as neither Herring, Lessers, or Yellow-leggeds.
There are usually multiple birds reported and I have seen at least 2
separate
birds in the same day. The seem to associate more with HEGU than LBBG
though they have turned up in the large local LBBG roosts which are
mostly
separate from the main HEGU roost.
This year I have seen them more frequently than Glaucous Gull!
I have never seen a bird with such a bilateral difference in plumage as
that
mostly juv (on the right) HEGU from Jan 23, & 28.
Taken in parts, the right half of the bird including the frosty
underwing is
not terribly unusual into December - but it would be harder to find an
individual
with so many juv scaps this time of year though I could not say
impossible.
I can't meaningfully quantify the frequency of such birds other than to
say
they compromise a sizeable minority.
The tail pattern would not be too hard to find either though again in
the minority.
The wing molt in LBBG seems about 3 weeks behind what I see here in
PA/NJ
some random flight shots here:
http://www.ansp.org/~wechsler/lightbox/DVOC/HeguAdJan.htm
show a mix of 1 and 2 white mirrors in HEGU. More or less what I
normally see
and since it seems just a mix I fear I do not pay too much attention to
it so can't
quantify it at all.
Matt
Matt Sharp
Collection Manager
VIREO/ANS
1900 Benjamin Franklin Pkwy.
Philadelphia PA 19103
http://vireo.acnatsci.org
(tel.) 215-299-1069
(fax) 215-299-1182
>>> Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET> 1/30/2007 1:08 am >>>
Folks
I just got back from the Space Coast Bird Festival in Titusville,
Florida
and had some good gulling there. I have put together a page:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
with photos of several odd birds. One may be a hybrid Lesser
Black-backed x
Herring gull. Is this a well known hybrid in eastern North America? I
don't
recall hearing of any before, but I may not have been paying attention.
The
second bird is a juvenile showing a mix of characters which I
certainly
found confusing. Could this actually be any type of European Herring
Gull?
An extremely dark-winged Thayer's Gull? Finally, the most straight
forward
bird was a Nelson's Gull.
A few general observations deem comment.
Herring Gulls - compared to our western ones, the Florida birds
consistently
show two mirrors rather than one. Many second cycle Florida birds
showed
extensive white on coverts, giving them a frosty look which I don't see
here
on the West Coast.
Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Adults seem to be finishing growing P9-10 at
this
time (at least two which I studied), a rather late molt for any gull
in
North America. I imagine that this is late for European winterers? How
does
it compare to birds wintering at equivalent latitudes in the Old World?
At
least one first cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull I saw had replaced some
median coverts. Again, this is unusual for North American gulls of this
age.
Cheers to Bob Wallace, Michael Brothers for getting me out to the
Volusia
County Landfill, and to Jeff Bouton, Adam Kent, and Andy Wraithmell
for
their assistance at Jetty Park.
Thanks for any comments.
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
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Subject: Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA?
From: sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 30 Jan 2007 9:15am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings All
Just back from being away for several days.
The photos on web clearly show a BTGreen Warbler
On the web, the underparts are clearly white.
On the photos in Birding, they look yellow. Beyond those who posted, Bill Tweit
looked at the photos in Birding and agreed that the underparts looked at least
washed in yellow. I surveyed a bunch of non-birders, and asked what color they
saw, and yellow was consistently the answer. A couple previous posts showed that
other birders had same impression from photo in Birding.
Yet, the ACTUAL photos, as published on the web, showed spanking white throat
and chest. Also, other photos of same bird showed a cheek patch that appeared
not nearly as solid as the one published.
This shows the problem with photos, per a previous discussion on Frontiers. They
are not necessarily objective.
Cheers
Steve Mlodinow
-----Original Message-----
From: geoffrey.williamson(AT)COMCAST.NET
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA?
I've placed the photo from Birding, along with another photo provided by Hans
Spiecker, at
http://home.comcast.net/~geoffrey.williamson/warbler.html
(Note that the issue of Birding in which the photo appears is the most recent,
volume 39 number 1. Steve's original subject line had a typo with the vol.
given as 30.)
Sincerely,
Geoff Williamson
--
Geoffrey A. Williamson
Chicago, IL
geoffrey.williamson(AT)comcast.net
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Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: "Geoffrey A. Williamson" <geoffrey.williamson(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 9:44am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Lars Jonsson and Bruce Mactavish wrote an article, appearing in
Birders Journal vol. 10 no. 2, pp. 92-107, that analyzed differences
in wing tip pattern among American Herring Gulls observed in winter
in Newfoundland and at Niagara.
100 adult birds in Newfoundland and 62 from Niagara were
considered. Regarding the mirrors, they noted that 90% of the
Niagara birds lacked a white mirror on P9, while only 7% of the
Newfoundland birds lacked such a mirror.
Here in Chicago in winter you can find Herring Gulls showing mirrors
on P9, but they are not common. I'm guessing it's fewer than the 10
out of 100 noted in Niagara, but I haven't actually counted.
Sincerely,
Geoff Williamson
--
Geoffrey A. Williamson
Chicago, IL
geoffrey.williamson(AT)comcast.net
At 09:19 AM 1/30/2007, you wrote:
>I know the mirror difference (1 on W. birds, 2 on E. birds) has been
>raised before so I think this is pretty standard differentiator,
>although subject to individual variation.
>
>
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Subject: Re: Birding 30:45 (now 39:45), TOWA?
From: Phil Jeffrey <pjeffrey(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 10:05am
I read Steve's statement "the ACTUAL photos, as published on the web, showed
spanking white throat and chest", looked at the photos again, and
immediately opened them up in Photoshop.
I'm not doubting the ID of the bird as a Black-throated Green.
The underparts are not white, however. They show a consistent pale
yellow/pale buff overall cast. The lighting on this picture is predictably
complex, with a blue-ish overall shadow tone (i.e. to the right of the
BTGreen in the first picture) and a fairly warm sunrise low angle sunlight.
Typical for sunrise on a day with clear blue skies. On the first image
(warbler1.jpg) the warmer background color of the underparts is masked by
the warmth of the overall lighting, however on the second photo
(warbler2.jpg) the other side of the bird is in shadow, so one expects a
colder tone. Accordingly the wing bars are white to blue-white. The flank
and breast background color is still very pale yellow even under the blue
color cast in the shadow lighting - it is appreciably further toward the
yellow than the wing bars are.
My monitor is a color-calibrated CRT and I turned the lights off while doing
the comparison. I used the "eye dropper" tool in Photoshop to survey colors
make sure my eyes were not deluding me.
The underpart base color is not out of range for BTGreen in fall, at least
based on my own photos, where I'll typically see the underpart color show
some contrast with the whiter wing bars. Photos in spring more typically
show a whiter underpart base color.
I would say that this series of photos were *extremely* objective, and at
least as objective as any observer, but the reproduction via the print was
rather unfaithful to the original image and over-emphasized certain aspects
of the photograph. This is a common problem, as far as I can tell. Perhaps
Birding should take additional steps to ensure that the photos in articles
are available online to partially address this. Although monitors can be
quite a long way off from the accurate representation of color unless they
are color calibrated.
Regards
Phil Jeffrey
Princeton, NJ
(included messages slightly edited to reduce the length of this email)
>From: sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM
>
>Greetings All
>
>Just back from being away for several days.
>
>The photos on web clearly show a BTGreen Warbler
>On the web, the underparts are clearly white.
>On the photos in Birding, they look yellow. Beyond those who posted, Bill
>Tweit looked at the photos in Birding and agreed that the underparts looked
>at least washed in yellow. I surveyed a bunch of non-birders, and asked
>what color they saw, and yellow was consistently the answer. A couple
>previous posts showed that other birders had same impression from photo in
>Birding.
>
>Yet, the ACTUAL photos, as published on the web, showed spanking white
>throat and chest. Also, other photos of same bird showed a cheek patch that
>appeared not nearly as solid as the one published.
>
>This shows the problem with photos, per a previous discussion on Frontiers.
>They are not necessarily objective.
>
>Cheers
>Steve Mlodinow
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>I've placed the photo from Birding, along with another photo provided by
>Hans Spiecker, at
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~geoffrey.williamson/warbler.html
>
>(Note that the issue of Birding in which the photo appears is the most
>recent, volume 39 number 1. Steve's original subject line had a typo with
>the vol. given as 30.)
>
>Sincerely,
>Geoff Williamson
_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Possible American Herring Gull in Denmark
From: Kenneth Rude Nielsen <kenneth.r.nielsen(AT)netfugl.dk>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 12:42pm
Dear Birders
10 days ago ( 21 of January ) two Danish birders saw a gull that could be an
American Herring Gull.
Please take a look at the pictures:
http://netfugl.dk/pictures.php?species_id=968&country_id=1&photographer_id=111&pics_section=&picture_category_id=&rare_bird=&picdate_year=2007&picdate_month=1&picdate_day=&order_by=&order=&page_size=100&id=listpictures&search=1&language=uk
What do you think about it? Is it possible to ID it or is it just another
strange gull?
Comments are very welcome!
Best regards
Kenneth
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Subject: IDing Common Eider to subspecies
From: Martin Reid <upupa(AT)AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 3:13pm
Dear all,
Can anyone confirm that, for the bare skin on the bill of male COEI,
a broad spoon-shape (colored olive) at the base is absolutely
diagnostic of the race dresseri?
Also, is there any indication of an unusual southwards movement of
this (or other) forms early this month?? Replies off-list would be
great - thanks!
Cheers,
Martin
--
Martin Reid
San Antonio, Texas
mailto:upupa(AT)airmail.net
http://www.martinreid.com
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Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: "James P. Smith" <keenbirder(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 6:47pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hello Alvaro,
Regarding your question over Lesser Black-backed x Herring Gulls on the East
Coast, we recently a bird presumed to be showing mixed characters of these
species at Rochester, NH, on January 3rd, 2007. It was found by Ben Griffith,
and I know that Steve Mirick has digiscoped at least one other at the same site,
I think in Nov/Dec 2004. Here's a few images of the most recent;
http://keenbirding.com/NE07/Buid030106.html
I'm not too sure if others have been documented at Rochester, though they may
well have been seen there.
On this theme, it would be really interesting to find out for sure if graellsii
x smithsonianus pairs are breeding somewhere in North America. Is there any
clear evidence for this, or is it just an assumption? If true, can we be
directed to the references?
Is there any reason why these hybrids couldn't be reaching us from NW. Europe?
Best to all,
James P. Smith
Amherst, MA.
Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET> wrote:
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Folks
I just got back from the Space Coast Bird Festival in Titusville, Florida
and had some good gulling there. I have put together a page:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
with photos of several odd birds. One may be a hybrid Lesser Black-backed x
Herring gull. Is this a well known hybrid in eastern North America? I don’t
recall hearing of any before, but I may not have been paying attention. The
second bird is a juvenile showing a mix of characters which I certainly found
confusing. Could this actually be any type of European Herring Gull? An
extremely dark-winged Thayer’s Gull? Finally, the most straight forward bird was
a Nelson’s Gull.
A few general observations deem comment.
Herring Gulls – compared to our western ones, the Florida birds consistently
show two mirrors rather than one. Many second cycle Florida birds showed
extensive white on coverts, giving them a frosty look which I don’t see here on
the West Coast.
Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Adults seem to be finishing growing P9-10 at this
time (at least two which I studied), a rather late molt for any gull in North
America. I imagine that this is late for European winterers? How does it compare
to birds wintering at equivalent latitudes in the Old World? At least one first
cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull I saw had replaced some median coverts. Again,
this is unusual for North American gulls of this age.
Cheers to Bob Wallace, Michael Brothers for getting me out to the Volusia
County Landfill, and to Jeff Bouton, Adam Kent, and Andy Wraithmell for their
assistance at Jetty Park.
Thanks for any comments.
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
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Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 7:08pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
At least from my time back in the UK in the 70s and 80s, LBBG x HEGU
hybrids were pretty much unknown. There were a few in W. Wales but these
were a result of some forced cross-breeding experiment apparently. It's
very common in the UK to have large colonies of both species in the same
location and they don't interbreed.
=20
Often hybridization occurs as a species colonizes an area for the first
time. For example, Mediterranean Gulls hybridized with C. Black-headed
Gulls when they first appeared in the UK but I understand this isn't
happening much anymore as they can breed with members of their own
species.
=20
Therefore I think the US (or perhaps areas like Greenland where LBBGs
are colonizing, assuming HEGU nests in Greenland) is the most likely
source of such hybrids.
=20
Nick Lethaby
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
=20
________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of James P. Smith
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:48 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
=20
Hello Alvaro,
Regarding your question over Lesser Black-backed x Herring Gulls on the
East Coast, we recently a bird presumed to be showing mixed characters
of these species at Rochester, NH, on January 3rd, 2007. It was found by
Ben Griffith, and I know that Steve Mirick has digiscoped at least one
other at the same site, I think in Nov/Dec 2004. Here's a few images of
the most recent;
http://keenbirding.com/NE07/Buid030106.html
I'm not too sure if others have been documented at Rochester, though
they may well have been seen there.
On this theme, it would be really interesting to find out for sure if
graellsii x smithsonianus pairs are breeding somewhere in North America.
Is there any clear evidence for this, or is it just an assumption? If
true, can we be directed to the references?
Is there any reason why these hybrids couldn't be reaching us from NW.
Europe?
Best to all,
James P. Smith
Amherst, MA.
Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET> wrote:
Folks
=20
I just got back from the Space Coast Bird Festival in Titusville,
Florida and had some good gulling there. I have put together a page:
=20
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
=20
with photos of several odd birds. One may be a hybrid Lesser
Black-backed x Herring gull. Is this a well known hybrid in eastern
North America? I don't recall hearing of any before, but I may not have
been paying attention. The second bird is a juvenile showing a mix of
characters which I certainly found confusing. Could this actually be any
type of European Herring Gull? An extremely dark-winged Thayer's Gull?
Finally, the most straight forward bird was a Nelson's Gull.=20
=20
A few general observations deem comment.=20
=20
Herring Gulls - compared to our western ones, the Florida birds
consistently show two mirrors rather than one. Many second cycle Florida
birds showed extensive white on coverts, giving them a frosty look which
I don't see here on the West Coast.=20
=20
Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Adults seem to be finishing growing P9-10 at
this time (at least two which I studied), a rather late molt for any
gull in North America. I imagine that this is late for European
winterers? How does it compare to birds wintering at equivalent
latitudes in the Old World? At least one first cycle Lesser Black-backed
Gull I saw had replaced some median coverts. Again, this is unusual for
North American gulls of this age.=20
=20
Cheers to Bob Wallace, Michael Brothers for getting me out to the
Volusia County Landfill, and to Jeff Bouton, Adam Kent, and Andy
Wraithmell for their assistance at Jetty Park.=20
=20
Thanks for any comments.=20
=20
Al
=20
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
=20
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
=20
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=20
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Subject: Re: Possible American Herring Gull in Denmark
From: Kevin <kevinmc(AT)MOUNTAINCABLE.NET>
Date: 30 Jan 2007 7:48pm
Hello Kenneth et al.
A most interesting gull indeed. I cannot offer any certain ID on this bird
but can put forth some comments regarding the inconsistencies involving
second and third basic ( = winter ) plumages of ( American ) Herring Gull,
( L.a.smithsonianus ) found here in Hamilton at the western end of Lake
Ontario and on the Niagara River.
Second basic - At first glance there is a fair resemblance to this age class
of Herring Gull seen in large numbers here. The gray "saddle", brown wings
with very finely marked greater secondary coverts, brown tertials, pale
inner primaries, blackish tail band contrasting to an essentially white
barred rump, along with a paling iris and two toned bill are all viable
features of this age class. The amount of dark brown on the underparts seems
a bit extreme but may be possible in birds early in their third calendar
year. Upon closer examination however, some problems arise. The makeup of
the tail is a concern. Our third CY birds have blackish rectrices, typically
with only a small amount of white dotting at most showing towards the bases
of the outers, along with white uppertail coverts and rumps which show
minimal dark barring. Variation is found in both of these characters with
perhaps more variance in uppertail-rump barring than in the pattern on the
outer rectrices. There is too much gray showing on the inner primaries and
along the secondaries for our second basics. The blackish outer primaries,
white-tipped P5 to P7 and most importantly, the sub-apical mirror showing on
P10 are all highly anomalous features for second basic HGs on the Great
Lakes. These feathers are uniformly dark brown in second basic, lacking any
tips or mirrors. The inner primary "window", more obviously contrasting in
second basics than in firsts on our birds, is more whitish than gray to my
sense at least.
Third basic - Our birds usually have only a vestigial tail band at this age,
and can sometimes lack it entirely. The odd bird may have rectrices
appearing like the Danish bird. The amount of dark barring above the band,
as shown on this individual, would be very odd for a 4th CY bird here. Also
quite unusual would be the amount of brown on the secondary coverts. Our
third basics normally have a great deal of gray pigmentation on the
upperwings with varying amounts of light brown on the coverts. At this age,
our birds have a comparable pattern to the Danish bird in the black outer
primaries, with a P10 sub-apical mirror generally present as well as white
termimal spots on the middle to inner primaries. As in second basic, the
amount of brown feathering on the underparts would be excessive for this age
class. I don't believe that bill pattern is of much use in considering the
age of this bird but the eye does seem rather dull for a 4th CY individual.
Again, another variable feature.
While I cannot offer any species or racial identification conclusion to this
bird, other than to say it is a Herring-type, I would suggest that it is in
third basic plumage, early in its fourth calendar year. From my perspective
in dealing with large gulls in Ontario, the presence of at least a small
mirror on P10 is critical in age determination of non-definitive birds,
particularly with regards to separating second from third basic. I am most
interested in knowing if European Herrings, for example, can differ in this
regard.
Kevin McLaughlin
Hamilton, Ontario
CANADA.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Rude Nielsen" <kenneth.r.nielsen(AT)NETFUGL.DK>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:32 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Possible American Herring Gull in Denmark
> Dear Birders
>
> 10 days ago ( 21 of January ) two Danish birders saw a gull that could be
> an American Herring Gull.
>
> Please take a look at the pictures:
>
>
http://netfugl.dk/pictures.php?species_id=968&country_id=1&photographer_id=111&pics_section=&picture_category_id=&rare_bird=&picdate_year=2007&picdate_month=1&picdate_day=&order_by=&order=&page_size=100&id=listpictures&search=1&language=uk
>
> What do you think about it? Is it possible to ID it or is it just another
> strange gull?
>
> Comments are very welcome!
>
> Best regards
>
> Kenneth
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible American Herring Gull in Denmark
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 2:00am
re:
http://netfugl.dk/pictures.php?species_id=968&country_id=1&photographer_id=1
11&pics_section=&picture_category_id=&rare_bird=&picdate_year=2007&picdate_m
onth=1&picdate_day=&order_by=&order=&page_size=100&id=listpictures&search=1&
language=uk
Hi Kenneth,
How common, in 2nd winter/basic smith, is a white mirror on P10? It is not
that uncommon in argentatus. O&L says 2nd winter/basic smith does not have a
mirror on P10. The tail looks "disappointing" for smith.
Dick
Cambridge, UK
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Subject: Re: Indiana jaeger
From: Jim Hengeveld <jhengeve(AT)INDIANA.EDU>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 8:15am
--Apple-Mail-6-823296257
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=US-ASCII;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Last Wednesday, I requested input on a juv. jaeger that had been seen
10/28/06 on the Indiana lakefront. It had been identified as a
Parasitic in the field and was later id'd as a Long-tailed based on
photos taken by Michael Topp (see: <http://tinyurl.com/2kzpkr>;)
The four responses that I received were unanimous and confident in
concluding that the jaeger was a Long-tailed. Personally, I had been
a little concerned about what appeared to be a long, thin bill with
just a small black tip (rather than 50% dark), the large white blaze
on the underside of the primaries, the triangular looking head, and a
center of gravity that did not seem to be far enough forward relative
to depictions in the Olsen & Larsson guide (A Guide to Skuas and
Jaegers of the World).
Apparently I need not have been concerned. Thanks for the responses!
........Jim
-------------------
James Hengeveld, PhD
Biology Dept. Jordan Hall A112
Indiana University 812: 855-5353
Bloomington, IN 47405 jhengeve(AT)indiana.edu
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Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: Ruth and Richard Mielcarek <rmiel(AT)GLOBALNET.CO.UK>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 8:35am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Nick
presumed hybrids between argenteus HEGU and graellsii LBBG are not =
unknown amongst the urban breeding colonies in South West England. I =
posted a couple of pictures of such presumed birds on Birdforum - see =
post #40 in the following thread.
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=3D74864&referrerid=3D41986
Rich M
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Lethaby, Nick=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
At least from my time back in the UK in the 70s and 80s, LBBG x HEGU =
hybrids were pretty much unknown. There were a few in W. Wales but these =
were a result of some forced cross-breeding experiment apparently. It's =
very common in the UK to have large colonies of both species in the same =
location and they don't interbreed.
Often hybridization occurs as a species colonizes an area for the =
first time. For example, Mediterranean Gulls hybridized with C. =
Black-headed Gulls when they first appeared in the UK but I understand =
this isn't happening much anymore as they can breed with members of =
their own species.
Therefore I think the US (or perhaps areas like Greenland where LBBGs =
are colonizing, assuming HEGU nests in Greenland) is the most likely =
source of such hybrids.
Nick Lethaby
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification =
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of James P. Smith
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:48 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
Hello Alvaro,
Regarding your question over Lesser Black-backed x Herring Gulls on =
the East Coast, we recently a bird presumed to be showing mixed =
characters of these species at Rochester, NH, on January 3rd, 2007. It =
was found by Ben Griffith, and I know that Steve Mirick has digiscoped =
at least one other at the same site, I think in Nov/Dec 2004. Here's a =
few images of the most recent;
http://keenbirding.com/NE07/Buid030106.html
I'm not too sure if others have been documented at Rochester, though =
they may well have been seen there.
On this theme, it would be really interesting to find out for sure if =
graellsii x smithsonianus pairs are breeding somewhere in North America. =
Is there any clear evidence for this, or is it just an assumption? If =
true, can we be directed to the references?
Is there any reason why these hybrids couldn't be reaching us from NW. =
Europe?
Best to all,
James P. Smith
Amherst, MA.
Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET> wrote:
Folks
I just got back from the Space Coast Bird Festival in Titusville, =
Florida and had some good gulling there. I have put together a page:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
with photos of several odd birds. One may be a hybrid Lesser =
Black-backed x Herring gull. Is this a well known hybrid in eastern =
North America? I don't recall hearing of any before, but I may not have =
been paying attention. The second bird is a juvenile showing a mix of =
characters which I certainly found confusing. Could this actually be any =
type of European Herring Gull? An extremely dark-winged Thayer's Gull? =
Finally, the most straight forward bird was a Nelson's Gull.=20
A few general observations deem comment.=20
Herring Gulls - compared to our western ones, the Florida birds =
consistently show two mirrors rather than one. Many second cycle Florida =
birds showed extensive white on coverts, giving them a frosty look which =
I don't see here on the West Coast.=20
Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Adults seem to be finishing growing P9-10 =
at this time (at least two which I studied), a rather late molt for any =
gull in North America. I imagine that this is late for European =
winterers? How does it compare to birds wintering at equivalent =
latitudes in the Old World? At least one first cycle Lesser Black-backed =
Gull I saw had replaced some median coverts. Again, this is unusual for =
North American gulls of this age.=20
Cheers to Bob Wallace, Michael Brothers for getting me out to the =
Volusia County Landfill, and to Jeff Bouton, Adam Kent, and Andy =
Wraithmell for their assistance at Jetty Park.=20
Thanks for any comments.=20
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: =
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbirdwg01=20
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html=20
=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and=20
always stay connected to friends.=20
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: =
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Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html=20
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: =
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Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 9:34am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Thanks. Do you have a rough idea of the percentage of hybrids to pure
birds in the total UK population? This should give us an idea on how
many pure birds need to make it to the USA for a European-born hybrid to
be in with them.
=20
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
=20
________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ruth and Richard
Mielcarek
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:25 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
=20
Nick
=20
presumed hybrids between argenteus HEGU and graellsii LBBG are not
unknown amongst the urban breeding colonies in South West England. I
posted a couple of pictures of such presumed birds on Birdforum - see
post #40 in the following thread.
=20
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=3D74864&referrerid=3D41986
=20
Rich M
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Lethaby, Nick <mailto:nlethaby(AT)TI.COM> =20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
=20
At least from my time back in the UK in the 70s and 80s, LBBG x
HEGU hybrids were pretty much unknown. There were a few in W. Wales but
these were a result of some forced cross-breeding experiment apparently.
It's very common in the UK to have large colonies of both species in the
same location and they don't interbreed.
=20
Often hybridization occurs as a species colonizes an area for
the first time. For example, Mediterranean Gulls hybridized with C.
Black-headed Gulls when they first appeared in the UK but I understand
this isn't happening much anymore as they can breed with members of
their own species.
=20
Therefore I think the US (or perhaps areas like Greenland where
LBBGs are colonizing, assuming HEGU nests in Greenland) is the most
likely source of such hybrids.
=20
Nick Lethaby
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
=20
=09
________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of James P. Smith
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:48 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
=20
Hello Alvaro,
=09
Regarding your question over Lesser Black-backed x Herring Gulls
on the East Coast, we recently a bird presumed to be showing mixed
characters of these species at Rochester, NH, on January 3rd, 2007. It
was found by Ben Griffith, and I know that Steve Mirick has digiscoped
at least one other at the same site, I think in Nov/Dec 2004. Here's a
few images of the most recent;
=09
http://keenbirding.com/NE07/Buid030106.html
=09
I'm not too sure if others have been documented at Rochester,
though they may well have been seen there.
=09
On this theme, it would be really interesting to find out for
sure if graellsii x smithsonianus pairs are breeding somewhere in North
America. Is there any clear evidence for this, or is it just an
assumption? If true, can we be directed to the references?
=09
Is there any reason why these hybrids couldn't be reaching us
from NW. Europe?
=09
=09
Best to all,
=09
James P. Smith
Amherst, MA.
=09
=09
=09
=09
Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET> wrote:
Folks
I just got back from the Space Coast Bird Festival in
Titusville, Florida and had some good gulling there. I have put together
a page:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
with photos of several odd birds. One may be a hybrid Lesser
Black-backed x Herring gull. Is this a well known hybrid in eastern
North America? I don't recall hearing of any before, but I may not have
been paying attention. The second bird is a juvenile showing a mix of
characters which I certainly found confusing. Could this actually be any
type of European Herring Gull? An extremely dark-winged Thayer's Gull?
Finally, the most straight forward bird was a Nelson's Gull.=20
A few general observations deem comment.=20
Herring Gulls - compared to our western ones, the Florida birds
consistently show two mirrors rather than one. Many second cycle Florida
birds showed extensive white on coverts, giving them a frosty look which
I don't see here on the West Coast.=20
Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Adults seem to be finishing growing
P9-10 at this time (at least two which I studied), a rather late molt
for any gull in North America. I imagine that this is late for European
winterers? How does it compare to birds wintering at equivalent
latitudes in the Old World? At least one first cycle Lesser Black-backed
Gull I saw had replaced some median coverts. Again, this is unusual for
North American gulls of this age.=20
Cheers to Bob Wallace, Michael Brothers for getting me out to
the Volusia County Landfill, and to Jeff Bouton, Adam Kent, and Andy
Wraithmell for their assistance at Jetty Park.=20
Thanks for any comments.=20
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net <mailto:chucao(AT)coastside.net>=20
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com <http://www.fieldguides.com>=20
Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbirdwg01=20
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html=20
=20
=20
=09
________________________________
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D43909/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/mail> and=20
always stay connected
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D43909/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/mail> to
friends.=20
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----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)ZEN.CO.UK>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 10:02am
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Re:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=74864&referrerid=41986
<http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=74864&referrerid=41986
Why is this not an ordinary argentatus Herring Gull? According to O&L,
argentatus can get as dark as Kodak 8, the same as the palest graellsii.
I could ask the same of some claims of smith x graellsi, smith can get as
dark as Kodak 7. However if the bird also has yellowish legs and an unusual
wing-tip pattern, then maybe a hybrid. Yellowish legs on an argentatus would
not be so informative.
I am not sure reaching for hybrid every time a dark or light bird turns up
is productive. If the bird also shows some other traits, as for example the
recent Monterey Mew Gull with a Ring-billed head, which Alvaro pointed out
to me does have rather long wings and a very broad tertial fringe for
Ring-billed, then I think I would support the view that it was a hybrid, but
I would not be convinced if its dark appearance was the only thing odd about
it..
I probably see about half a dozen birds every year that I reckon are
hybrids. These include known (ringed) Caspian x Herring, presumed Lesser
Black-backed x Yellow-legged, presumed Lesser Black-backed x Herring and
presumed Caspian x Yellow-legged.
Dick
Cambridge, UK
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: Ruth and Richard Mielcarek <rmiel(AT)GLOBALNET.CO.UK>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 10:06am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Nick
a very small percentage.=20
In amongst the nearly 2000 pairs of large gulls (ie HEGU and LBBG) =
breeding in Bristol I think 7 presumed hybird birds were counted; in =
Gloucester where there are also c2000 pairs there were only 3 presumed =
hybrid birds.
There are also presumed hybrids in Belgium but these may well be between =
YLG and HEGU - there is an article by Peter Adriaens about these on =
Surfbirds (but the server is still down due to a hacking) =20
Rich M=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Lethaby, Nick=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
Thanks. Do you have a rough idea of the percentage of hybrids to pure =
birds in the total UK population? This should give us an idea on how =
many pure birds need to make it to the USA for a European-born hybrid to =
be in with them.
Nick Lethaby
DSP/BIOS Product Manager
Software Development Systems
Texas Instruments
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification =
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ruth and Richard =
Mielcarek
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:25 AM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
Nick
presumed hybrids between argenteus HEGU and graellsii LBBG are not =
unknown amongst the urban breeding colonies in South West England. I =
posted a couple of pictures of such presumed birds on Birdforum - see =
post #40 in the following thread.
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=3D74864&referrerid=3D41986
Rich M
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Lethaby, Nick=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
At least from my time back in the UK in the 70s and 80s, LBBG x HEGU =
hybrids were pretty much unknown. There were a few in W. Wales but these =
were a result of some forced cross-breeding experiment apparently. It's =
very common in the UK to have large colonies of both species in the same =
location and they don't interbreed.
Often hybridization occurs as a species colonizes an area for the =
first time. For example, Mediterranean Gulls hybridized with C. =
Black-headed Gulls when they first appeared in the UK but I understand =
this isn't happening much anymore as they can breed with members of =
their own species.
Therefore I think the US (or perhaps areas like Greenland where =
LBBGs are colonizing, assuming HEGU nests in Greenland) is the most =
likely source of such hybrids.
Nick Lethaby
805 562 5106
nlethaby(AT)ti.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification =
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of James P. Smith
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:48 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
Hello Alvaro,
Regarding your question over Lesser Black-backed x Herring Gulls on =
the East Coast, we recently a bird presumed to be showing mixed =
characters of these species at Rochester, NH, on January 3rd, 2007. It =
was found by Ben Griffith, and I know that Steve Mirick has digiscoped =
at least one other at the same site, I think in Nov/Dec 2004. Here's a =
few images of the most recent;
http://keenbirding.com/NE07/Buid030106.html
I'm not too sure if others have been documented at Rochester, though =
they may well have been seen there.
On this theme, it would be really interesting to find out for sure =
if graellsii x smithsonianus pairs are breeding somewhere in North =
America. Is there any clear evidence for this, or is it just an =
assumption? If true, can we be directed to the references?
Is there any reason why these hybrids couldn't be reaching us from =
NW. Europe?
Best to all,
James P. Smith
Amherst, MA.
Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET> wrote:
Folks
I just got back from the Space Coast Bird Festival in Titusville, =
Florida and had some good gulling there. I have put together a page:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
with photos of several odd birds. One may be a hybrid Lesser =
Black-backed x Herring gull. Is this a well known hybrid in eastern =
North America? I don't recall hearing of any before, but I may not have =
been paying attention. The second bird is a juvenile showing a mix of =
characters which I certainly found confusing. Could this actually be any =
type of European Herring Gull? An extremely dark-winged Thayer's Gull? =
Finally, the most straight forward bird was a Nelson's Gull.=20
A few general observations deem comment.=20
Herring Gulls - compared to our western ones, the Florida birds =
consistently show two mirrors rather than one. Many second cycle Florida =
birds showed extensive white on coverts, giving them a frosty look which =
I don't see here on the West Coast.=20
Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Adults seem to be finishing growing P9-10 =
at this time (at least two which I studied), a rather late molt for any =
gull in North America. I imagine that this is late for European =
winterers? How does it compare to birds wintering at equivalent =
latitudes in the Old World? At least one first cycle Lesser Black-backed =
Gull I saw had replaced some median coverts. Again, this is unusual for =
North American gulls of this age.=20
Cheers to Bob Wallace, Michael Brothers for getting me out to the =
Volusia County Landfill, and to Jeff Bouton, Adam Kent, and Andy =
Wraithmell for their assistance at Jetty Park.=20
Thanks for any comments.=20
Al
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
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Subject: Re: Florida Gulling and questions.
From: Ruth and Richard Mielcarek <rmiel(AT)GLOBALNET.CO.UK>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 10:12am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.Dick
to see the pictures of presumed hybrids that I was talking about you =
need to scroll through on that link to post #40 - the pictures on that =
posting are of birds photographed during the breeding season in the =
(urban) breeding colonies.
Sorry for any confusion.
Rich M
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dick Newell=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Florida Gulling and questions.
Re:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=3D74864&referrerid=3D41986 =
<http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=3D74864&referrerid=3D41986=
Why is this not an ordinary argentatus Herring Gull? According to =
O&L, argentatus can get as dark as Kodak 8, the same as the palest =
graellsii.
I could ask the same of some claims of smith x graellsi, smith can get =
as dark as Kodak 7. However if the bird also has yellowish legs and an =
unusual wing-tip pattern, then maybe a hybrid. Yellowish legs on an =
argentatus would not be so informative.
I am not sure reaching for hybrid every time a dark or light bird =
turns up is productive. If the bird also shows some other traits, as for =
example the recent Monterey Mew Gull with a Ring-billed head, which =
Alvaro pointed out to me does have rather long wings and a very broad =
tertial fringe for Ring-billed, then I think I would support the view =
that it was a hybrid, but I would not be convinced if its dark =
appearance was the only thing odd about it..
I probably see about half a dozen birds every year that I reckon are =
hybrids. These include known (ringed) Caspian x Herring, presumed Lesser =
Black-backed x Yellow-legged, presumed Lesser Black-backed x Herring and =
presumed Caspian x Yellow-legged.
Dick
Cambridge, UK
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Subject: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or indeterminate?
From: "Wayne C. Weber" <contopus(AT)TELUS.NET>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 1:57pm
Bird ID Folks,
A grebe which was photographed last November in the southern
interior of British Columbia is causing some controversy. The bird
was photographed by Laure Neish at Penticton, BC on November
2, 2006, and the photo can be seen at the following URL:
http://www.pbase.com/natureniche/image/73740583
The question: is this bird a Clark's Grebe, a Western Grebe, or
is it not possible to identify it with certainty?
Western Grebes are regular in winter in small flocks in the Okanagan
Valley of B.C., and there are two breeding colonies in and near the
valley. Clark's Grebe is quite rare in B.C., usually being seen singly
in or near Western Grebe flocks or breeding colonies, but is
certainly possible in November.
Any opinions or comments will be much appreciated.
Wayne C. Weber
Delta, BC, Canada
contopus(AT)telus.net
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Subject: Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate?
From: GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 31 Jan 2007 2:01pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
In a message dated 1/31/2007 12:57:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
contopus(AT)TELUS.NET writes:
http://www.pbase.com/natureniche/image/73740583
In my opinion it is clearly not a Clark's Grebe. It also does not look like
a pure Western Grebe. I think it is an intergrade, based on the small
amount of white above the base of the bill and the whitish flanks.
Gary W. Potter
Sanger, Fresno Co., CA
GWPOTT(AT)aol.com
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Subject: Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate?
From: greatgrayowl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 31 Jan 2007 2:22pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all:
Apparently, here we go again. On my monitor, I see an Aechmophorus grebe with
flanks nearly as dark as the back and a bill with a black culmen and black lower
edge -- features quite typical of Western Grebe. However, that doesn't change
the fact that I believe that Gary may be right. The bill looks a bit too
orange and the extent and placement of black and white around the eye is not
typical of Western Grebe. While claiming this bird as a hybrid may not be
accurate, I believe that I would probably have done the same had I seen it in
the field.
Sincerely,
Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO
-----Original Message-----
From: GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or indeterminate?
In a message dated 1/31/2007 12:57:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
contopus(AT)TELUS.NET writes:
http://www.pbase.com/natureniche/image/73740583
In my opinion it is clearly not a Clark's Grebe. It also does not look like a
pure Western Grebe. I think it is an intergrade, based on the small amount of
white above the base of the bill and the whitish flanks.
Gary W. Potter
Sanger, Fresno Co., CA
GWPOTT(AT)aol.com
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Subject: Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate?
From: sgmlod(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 31 Jan 2007 2:35pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Greetings
I agree with Gary. Definitely not a Clark's given bill color, dark upper and
lower borders to bill.
The white lores are intriguing, and certainly not typical for a Western. To me,
though, it is the hint of red at the base of the lower mandible, and a bit of
what appears to be bright orange facial skin (features of Clark's) that makes me
lean towards hybrid.
Cheers
Steve Mlodinow
Everett WA
-----Original Message-----
From: GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or indeterminate?
In a message dated 1/31/2007 12:57:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
contopus(AT)TELUS.NET writes:
http://www.pbase.com/natureniche/image/73740583
In my opinion it is clearly not a Clark's Grebe. It also does not look like a
pure Western Grebe. I think it is an intergrade, based on the small amount of
white above the base of the bill and the whitish flanks.
Gary W. Potter
Sanger, Fresno Co., CA
GWPOTT(AT)aol.com
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Subject: Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate?
From: Steve Sosensky <Steve(AT)SOSENSKY.COM>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 3:18pm
I'd also lean towards hybrid, as only the bill color suggests Clark's to me.
One thing that I've noticed between Western and Clark's is that
Westerns tend to have the appearance of an up-turned bill, while
Clark's seem to be more symmetric between maxilla and mandible. I've
never seen this mentioned anywhere. Has anyone else noticed this? Is
it useable in the field?
At 12:45 PM 2007-01-31, Wayne C. Weber wrote:
>http://www.pbase.com/natureniche/image/73740583
>
>The question: is this bird a Clark's Grebe, a Western Grebe, or
>is it not possible to identify it with certainty?
Good birding,
Steve Sosensky,
SoCA Bird Guides <steve at sosensky.com> www.sosensky.com/guides
Nature Photos www.sosensky.com/nature_photos.htm
Optics4Birding <steve at optics4birding.com> www.optics4birding.com
Aliso Viejo, CA 92656 949-269-2161 33.56485 N, 117.72205 W
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Subject: Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate?
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan(AT)CCSF.ORG>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 4:16pm
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:17:21 -0800, "Steve Sosensky" <Steve(AT)SOSENSKY.COM>
wrote:
>One thing that I've noticed between Western and Clark's is that
>Westerns tend to have the appearance of an up-turned bill, while
>Clark's seem to be more symmetric between maxilla and mandible. I've
>never seen this mentioned anywhere. Has anyone else noticed this? Is
>it useable in the field?
My recollection is that birds with upturned bills are females and birds
with straight bills are males. It is not a difference between the species.
I just checked the BNA account which supports my recollection stating:
"Bill of female shorter, much thinner with a nearly straight culmen, which
with the curvature of the mandible gives bill a somewhat upturned
appearance. Sexes nearly 100% separable on bill size and shape."
Back to the original bird. Did it call? The call-notes between the two
species are distinctly different.
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu
Birding Classes start Feb 6 in SF http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/cbrc/
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Subject: Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate?
From: Mark Stackhouse <westwings(AT)SISNA.COM>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 5:31pm
O.K., I guess I'm going to have to buck the trend here, as this bird
looks entirely like a classic fall-plumage Clark's Grebe to me. We see
hundreds of both species in Utah, and interestingly, even though the
numbers of both species are nearly equal at all seasons of the year,
for years all of the autumn records in Utah were for Western Grebe, as
most (all?) of the fall Clark's Grebes were misidentified as Westerns.
We now know that both occur in roughly equal numbers throughout the
year.
The head markings on this bird are perfect for a fall Clark's, with
only the lores being white. Nearly all of the fall Clark's Grebes in
Utah have black around the top and back of the eye and a black line
below the white lore, just as this bird shows. Only the lores are
clean-white. In fact, some fall Clark's show less white on the face
than this bird. To my knowledge, Westerns never have white lores at any
time of the year, though in some fall birds they may be rather paler
gray than the crown.
The bill is also classic for an autumn Clark's, and way too yellow for
a Western, especially a fall Western. Both species have the black
culmen, though not all Clark's have black on the lower mandible during
breeding season. Fall birds of both species have duller bills, normally
with black culmens and black on the bottom of the lower mandible.
The flank color could go either way on this bird. I don't find the pale
flanks on a Clark's to be a very reliable field mark, especially
outside of the breeding season. It's a good initial clue on a distant
bird, but I would never base an i.d. on this character.
Joseph M. answers the question of the curvature of the bill - not a
feature for identifying these species.
I really don't see anything on this bird that would suggest a hybrid -
it looks like any one of the hundreds of fall Clark's Grebes we see in
Utah.
Good birding!
Mark Stackhouse
Westwings, Inc.
www.westwings.com
mark(AT)westwings.com
801-487-9453 (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA)
011-52-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico)
On Jan 31, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Wayne C. Weber wrote:
> Bird ID Folks,
>
> A grebe which was photographed last November in the southern
> interior of British Columbia is causing some controversy. The bird
> was photographed by Laure Neish at Penticton, BC on November
> 2, 2006, and the photo can be seen at the following URL:
>
> http://www.pbase.com/natureniche/image/73740583
>
> The question: is this bird a Clark's Grebe, a Western Grebe, or
> is it not possible to identify it with certainty?
>
> Western Grebes are regular in winter in small flocks in the Okanagan
> Valley of B.C., and there are two breeding colonies in and near the
> valley. Clark's Grebe is quite rare in B.C., usually being seen singly
> in or near Western Grebe flocks or breeding colonies, but is
> certainly possible in November.
>
> Any opinions or comments will be much appreciated.
>
> Wayne C. Weber
> Delta, BC, Canada
> contopus(AT)telus.net
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
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>
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Subject: Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate?
From: Chuck Carlson <chuckcmt(AT)NEMONTEL.NET>
Date: 31 Jan 2007 9:56pm
I'm going to stick my nose in, or neck out, on this grebe question. In my
experience with Clark's Grebes it seems that the black stripe down the back
of the neck on a Clark's is much narrower than that on a Western. This
bird's stripe seems to be much wider than I recall ever seeing on a Clark's.
Has anyone else noticed this field mark?
Chuck Carlson
Ft. Peck MT
chuckcmt(AT)nemont.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Stackhouse" <westwings(AT)SISNA.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or indeterminate?
> O.K., I guess I'm going to have to buck the trend here, as this bird looks
> entirely like a classic fall-plumage Clark's Grebe to me. We see hundreds
> of both species in Utah, and interestingly, even though the numbers of
> both species are nearly equal at all seasons of the year, for years all of
> the autumn records in Utah were for Western Grebe, as most (all?) of the
> fall Clark's Grebes were misidentified as Westerns. We now know that both
> occur in roughly equal numbers throughout the year.
>
> The head markings on this bird are perfect for a fall Clark's, with only
> the lores being white. Nearly all of the fall Clark's Grebes in Utah have
> black around the top and back of the eye and a black line below the white
> lore, just as this bird shows. Only the lores are clean-white. In fact,
> some fall Clark's show less white on the face than this bird. To my
> knowledge, Westerns never have white lores at any time of the year, though
> in some fall birds they may be rather paler gray than the crown.
>
> The bill is also classic for an autumn Clark's, and way too yellow for a
> Western, especially a fall Western. Both species have the black culmen,
> though not all Clark's have black on the lower mandible during breeding
> season. Fall birds of both species have duller bills, normally with black
> culmens and black on the bottom of the lower mandible.
>
> The flank color could go either way on this bird. I don't find the pale
> flanks on a Clark's to be a very reliable field mark, especially outside
> of the breeding season. It's a good initial clue on a distant bird, but I
> would never base an i.d. on this character.
>
> Joseph M. answers the question of the curvature of the bill - not a
> feature for identifying these species.
>
> I really don't see anything on this bird that would suggest a hybrid - it
> looks like any one of the hundreds of fall Clark's Grebes we see in Utah.
>
> Good birding!
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> Westwings, Inc.
> www.westwings.com
> mark(AT)westwings.com
> 801-487-9453 (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA)
> 011-52-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico)
>
> On Jan 31, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Wayne C. Weber wrote:
>
>> Bird ID Folks,
>>
>> A grebe which was photographed last November in the southern
>> interior of British Columbia is causing some controversy. The bird
>> was photographed by Laure Neish at Penticton, BC on November
>> 2, 2006, and the photo can be seen at the following URL:
>>
>> http://www.pbase.com/natureniche/image/73740583
>>
>> The question: is this bird a Clark's Grebe, a Western Grebe, or
>> is it not possible to identify it with certainty?
>>
>> Western Grebes are regular in winter in small flocks in the Okanagan
>> Valley of B.C., and there are two breeding colonies in and near the
>> valley. Clark's Grebe is quite rare in B.C., usually being seen singly
>> in or near Western Grebe flocks or breeding colonies, but is
>> certainly possible in November.
>>
>> Any opinions or comments will be much appreciated.
>>
>> Wayne C. Weber
>> Delta, BC, Canada
>> contopus(AT)telus.net
>>
>>
>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
>> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
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Subject: Re: Clark's Grebe, Western Grebe, or
indeterminate?
From: GWPOTT(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 31 Jan 2007 10:14pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
The Sibley Guide shows this difference. I haven't tried it in the field,
but I agree that on this photo the neck stripe looks rather wide. Again
indicating Western. Could this also be a seasonal difference as suggested
about
the other characteristics listed by Mark? I also wanted to comment on the
flank color difference which Mark said is unreliable as a field mark. This may
well be true in the fall and winter, but I recall several years ago when
there were hundreds of these grebes on Lake San Antonio, San Luis Obispo Co.,
CA., shortly after the split. I tried to ID Clark's and Western based on this
characteristic, and when getting closer to the birds, I was right 100% of the
time. But that was during the breeding season! It may be totally unreliable
at other times of the year. I also agree with Mark that the bill looks too
yellow for Western, but I also think there is too much black on the culmen
and gonys for Clark's, even in fall/winter. It still looks like it is an
intermediate plumaged bird to me. Whether this means it is a hybrid, or some
back
cross hybrid, or just some normal variation, I'm not sure.
Gary W. Potter
Sanger, Fresno Co., CA
GWPOTT(AT)aol.com
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