ID-FRONTIERS for March 1-8, 2008

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   Re: ARIZONA - dark-backed Gull   Robert Lewis    Sat, 1 Mar 2008   7:41am   Yellow-footed like gull from Ohio   John Pogacnik    Sat, 1 Mar 2008   8:02am   Re: still more gulls   Dick Newell    Sat, 1 Mar 2008   2:47pm   Yet another gull!   Ricky Davis    Sat, 1 Mar 2008   4:30pm   Re: Yet another gull!   Matt Sharp    Sun, 2 Mar 2008   10:57am   Larus taimyrensis in India   Norman D.van Swelm   Sun, 2 Mar 2008   5:56pm   Laughing X Herring Gull?   =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_   Mon, 3 Mar 2008   1:11pm   Re: Laughing X Herring Gull?   John Idzikowski    Mon, 3 Mar 2008   1:23pm   More Pics for Raleigh, NC Gull   Ricky Davis    Tue, 4 Mar 2008   6:18am   Possible McKay's Bunting - Washington State   rmcclsky    Tue, 4 Mar 2008   7:24pm   Gulls of the Caribbean?   UFFMAN, JOSHUA P [AG   Wed, 5 Mar 2008   11:31am   Bird ID articles in March/April 2008 Birding Online   Ted Floyd    Wed, 5 Mar 2008   2:28pm   Re: ARIZONA - dark-backed Gull   =?windows-1252?Q?Jim   Thu, 6 Mar 2008   12:44pm   Costaq Rica Photos posted   Jerry Oldenettel    Thu, 6 Mar 2008   4:54pm

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Subject: Re: ARIZONA - dark-backed Gull
From: Robert Lewis <lewis(AT)BWAY.NET>
Date: 1 Mar 2008 7:41am

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I don't know much about Yellow-footed Gull, and it's too bad we have  
essentially only one pose, but this would seem to be a second winter  
Lesser Black-backed.  The dark yellow tipped bill is perfect, along  
with jizz, mantle color, etc.

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY

On Mar 1, 2008, at 12:08 AM, Kurt Radamaker wrote:

> An interesting gull, tentatively identified as Yellow-footed, was  
> photographed this week north of Havasu along the Colorado River.  
> Photos have been posted to the Arizona Field Ornithologists  
> Website. The photos can be viewed at:
>
> http://azfo.org/gallery/YFGU_KathLand_2008.html
>
> Opinions welcome.
>
> Best
>
> Kurt Radamaker
> Fountain Hills, AZ

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Subject: Yellow-footed like gull from Ohio
From: John Pogacnik <jpogacnik(AT)ADELPHIA.NET>
Date: 1 Mar 2008 8:02am

A bird looking a lot like a yellow-legged gull was found in Ohio along the 
south shore of Lake Erie on February 9, 2008.  One of the responses I got 
was from an observer that lives in Southern California.  He has stated that 
he has seen yellow-footed gulls a number of times at Salton Sea.  He said 
that if the bird wasn't sitting on ice and instead was at Salton Sea, he'd 
have no problem calling it a yellow-footed gull.  He further commented that 
if it isn't one he'd like to know what it is and why.  If this bird showed 
up in a place like Arizona, Utah, or Texas rather than Ohio, what would be 
the thoughts on it?  If someone is familiar with yellow-footed gull and sees 
any field marks on this bird that eliminate that species, I'd appreciate 
hearing from you.  If this is bird is a hybrid, then people elsewhere should 
be aware of it and consider it when identifying out of range yellow-footed 
gulls.

Here is a link to some photos and a field description of the bird.

http://www.rarebird.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2753

John Pogacnik
4765 Lockwood Road
Perry, OH 44081
(440) 259-2751 

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Subject: Re: still more gulls
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Date: 1 Mar 2008 2:47pm

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Norman,
Though I know from experience that it is always unproductive presenting you
with reasoned opinion, here goes anyway:
Let's take the adult bird (which could just conceivably be 4CY - but I don't
think so)
1 Leg colour is pale, whitish pink. Normal for cachinnans, very unusual for
taimyrensis [I once saw three taimyrensis with pink legs in a flock of 200
with yellow legs]
2 Back colour (OK, I know about caveats re lighting and photography):
cachinnans is near to Herring Gull, taimyrensis is nearer to graellsi. Yes,
a dark cachinnans may overlap with a pale taimyrensis, but this does not
look like a dark cachinnans.
3 Small beady eye: typical of cachinnans, not typical of taimyrensis.
4 Very large white mirror on P10 (with a very small black tip): normal for
(eastern) cachinnans, wrong or unusual for taimyrensis.
5 Subjectively, this bird has the stance and build of cachinnans and not of
taimyrensis.
6 Range, certainly OK for cachinnans - I suspect not for taimyrensis (but
don't know for sure - I think they go much further east). I believe Johnsson
asserted that they do not occur in the middle east.

Unfortunately it is not possible to say anything about bill and head-shape
because of the angle of the head.

So, unless I have got some of these points wrong, this would be a most
unusual taimyrensis.

Dick

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Norman D.van Swelm <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
wrote:

> Most likely they are Larus (...) taimyrensis.
> Norman
>
> Abhijit Menon-Sen writes: > Here are two photographs of large gulls from
> the
> Yamuna river at New
> > Delhi, India (photographed by Dinesh Singhal on January 26th 2008 and
> > Debashish Deb on February 24th respectively):
> >
> > http://toroid.org/misc/yamuna-1.jpg
> > http://toroid.org/misc/yamuna-2.jpg
> >
> > Are these barabensis (Steppe) or cachinnans (Caspian) or something else
> > altogether?<
>
>
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Subject: Yet another gull!
From: Ricky Davis <rdnc13(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 1 Mar 2008 4:30pm

Hi Folks

A gull was photographed 2-29-08 and then observed some more by others
3-1-08 at the N Raleigh Landfill, Raleigh, NC.  The bird was obviously
darker mantled than Herring Gull, but 1-2 shades lighter than
graellsii Lesser Black-backed. Body size was very similar to Herring
Gull, but apparently not any bulkier. Legs obvious yellow. The bird
has not been observed well or photographed in flight yet. So hopefully
some of you well-versed in gulls can let us know your thoughts on this
one. Photos have been placed on the Carolina Bird Club website. Go to
www.carolinabirdclub.org then CBC Photo Gallery, then "Mystery Gull"
from Raleigh. While you are at the photo gallery, be sure to check out
another "Mystery gull" from Kill Devil Hills, only two places down the
list of photos. Thanks for any input on the Raleigh Gull. Later, Ricky

Ricky Davis
Rocky Mount, NC
NAB-Southern Atlantic Region
The Chat-Briefs for the Files
NC BRC
eBird-NC editor

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Subject: Re: Yet another gull!
From: Matt Sharp <gentrysharp(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 2 Mar 2008 10:57am

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Ricky et al

Compare the pattern of the wing-tip of the Kill Devil Hills gull from 2/27
http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/

With this bird from Massachusetts photo'd on 2/23
http://www.capecodbirds.org/YLGU0208/yellowleggedgull0208.htm

Though not an exact match they are strikingly similar and both show
slightly less solidly black wing-tips with more prominent white sub-apical
spots and a longer gray tongue on p7 especially than seems typical of LBBG.

On both birds the amount of head streaking at this time of year along
with the relatively dull yellow legs seems wrong for YLGU of any sort.

Both seem good candidates for putative Am. Herring x LBBG but
I guess I can't say LBBG can be ruled out based on wing pattern alone.
At least the Harwich bird was described as appearing paler than
expected for LBBG.

Can anyone say with more confidence that the wing is wrong for LBBG?

I suppose the other h word (heuglini) could be brought up but from a brief
look at Olsen and Larsson it seems the wing pattern is off for that as well
??

Regardless the 2 birds provide an most excellently photographed comparison.

-- 
Matt Sharp
Phila. PA

"All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the
parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you.  Therefore, if you
can"t get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not
use a hammer."
 -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925

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Subject: Larus taimyrensis in India
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 2 Mar 2008 5:56pm

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  Dick Newell wrote: >Though I know from experience that it is always =
unproductive presenting you with reasoned opinion, here goes anyway:<

  I admire your courage Dick, I hope it won't cause you any trouble. Has =
the family been informed?

  and Dick Newell wrote:
  Let's take the adult bird (which could just conceivably be 4CY - but I =
don't think so)
  1 Leg colour is pale, whitish pink. Normal for cachinnans, very =
unusual for taimyrensis [I once saw three taimyrensis with pink legs in =
a flock of 200 with yellow legs]
  2 Back colour (OK, I know about caveats re lighting and photography): =
cachinnans is near to Herring Gull, taimyrensis is nearer to graellsi. =
Yes, a dark cachinnans may overlap with a pale taimyrensis, but this =
does not look like a dark cachinnans.
  3 Small beady eye: typical of cachinnans, not typical of taimyrensis.
  4 Very large white mirror on P10 (with a very small black tip): normal =
for (eastern) cachinnans, wrong or unusual for taimyrensis.
  5 Subjectively, this bird has the stance and build of cachinnans and =
not of taimyrensis.
  6 Range, certainly OK for cachinnans - I suspect not for taimyrensis =
(but don't know for sure - I think they go much further east). I believe =
Johnsson asserted that they do not occur in the middle east.
  Unfortunately it is not possible to say anything about bill and =
head-shape because of the angle of the head.
  So, unless I have got some of these points wrong, this would be a most =
unusual taimyrensis.<

  Let me begin with range (6) India is not the middle east, it is the =
east! So for that reason alone I don't see why L.taimyrensis would be =
more unusual than L.cachinnans!=20

  Let me explain: if you take the migration routes of the various =
'eastern' gulls to begin with L.f.fuscus, the eastern component of the =
Lesser Black-backs, it breeds (or bred, NB it has sharply declined =
because of chemical pollution both in the north: paper industry and in =
the south: Locust destruction with DDT) from N.Norway to Western Russia =
down into the Baltic area, it's migration is focussed on East Africa's =
great lakes, draw a line through the middle that connects both regions =
and you have the main stream of migrants. West of this line (W.Europe) =
L.f.fuscus is rare, the same is true for the east side: it is scarce in =
the Persian Gulf and the W.Indian Ocean.=20

  Heuglin's Gull breeds east of L.f.fuscus in the west from the Kanin =
Peninsula to and including the Pechora delta in the east and we do know =
a considerable portion winters in the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. =
L.heuglini has been claimed to winter in Japan and Hongkong, on =
photographs taken there the mantle of these birds looks rather dark so =
perhaps these birds originate from the Pechora delta where birds are =
said to be darker than in the west of heuglini's range.=20

  Next to Heuglin's Gull breeds Larus taimyrensis on the arctic tundra =
of the Taimyr peninsula, there are a few ringing recoveries of =
L.taimyrensis in Korea and E.Hirschfeld mentions it from Bahrain. I can =
see no reason why L.taimyrensis should not occur in India. Recently =
pictures taken in Thailand by Peter Ericsson shown on Oriental Bird-pix =
also show in my opinion: L.taimyrensis.

  Interestingly Caspian Gull L.cachinnans does not show a north-south =
migration. Recoveries from our projects in both Caspian and Black Seas =
clearly demonstrate a direction between NW and SW! This does not mean =
that Caspian Gulls will not get into India but it isn't the first thing =
one would expect!

  6 Back colour: Dick mentions 'dark' cachinnans, I have never seen it =
and I don't know if it exists but what I do know is that the mantle =
colour of L.taimyrensis is not very dark and more in line with Larus =
michahellis or L.h.barabensis. Have a look here:
   http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/index.htm
  =20
  then click index, then Taimyr Gull

  but if you prefer direct links try these:
  =20
   http://home.planet.nl/~swelm001/index.htm

   http://home.planet.nl/~swelm001/gulls/taimyrgull/taimyrgull.htm

  1 leg colour, Dick says a pale colour is very unusual for taimyrensis. =
I have no figures but of the three gulls seen on pictures here:=20

   http://home.planet.nl/~swelm001/gulls/taimyrgull/taimyrgull.htm=20

  one has pale legs!=20

  4 Dick says a very large white mirror on P10 is wrong or very unusual =
for taimyrensis yet at least one out of three birds shown here shows =
one!:

    http://home.planet.nl/~swelm001/gulls/taimyrgull/taimyrgull.htm
  Dick says: 'Unfortunately it is not possible to say anything about =
bill and head-shape because of the angle of the head.' Then why not take =
the other bird Abhiit Menon-Sen has photographed? This immature bird =
surely has a head-shape and pronounced gonydal angle not frequently =
found in Caspian Gull but which can be seen in the pictures of =
L.taimyrensis here: =20

    http://home.planet.nl/~swelm001/gulls/taimyrgull/taimyrgull.htm

  So, all in all I'd say the case for taimyrensis in India is not so =
hopeless after all.
  Cheers, Norman

  On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Norman D.van Swelm =
<Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl> wrote:

    Most likely they are Larus (...) taimyrensis.
    Norman

    Abhijit Menon-Sen writes: > Here are two photographs of large gulls =
from the

    Yamuna river at New
    > Delhi, India (photographed by Dinesh Singhal on January 26th 2008 =
and
    > Debashish Deb on February 24th respectively):
    >
    > http://toroid.org/misc/yamuna-1.jpg
    > http://toroid.org/misc/yamuna-2.jpg
    >
    > Are these barabensis (Steppe) or cachinnans (Caspian) or something =
else
    > altogether?<

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Subject: Laughing X Herring Gull?
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_Neise?= <greg(AT)LPZOO.ORG>
Date: 3 Mar 2008 1:11pm

On the IN-BIRD list John Kendall posted pictures of an "apparent Laughing x
Herring Gull" at Whiting Park in Hammond. I've never heard of that combo,
and a quick Google search turned up no references. It's an
interesting-looking bird:

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=3423.0

Cheers,

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

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Subject: Re: Laughing X Herring Gull?
From: John Idzikowski <idzikoj(AT)UWM.EDU>
Date: 3 Mar 2008 1:23pm

Perhaps LAGU x RBGU might be a better fit than HERG noting the size, leg color
and the bill markings. Here is a putative LA x RB
from Wisconsin (by Brian Boldt) that was published as such in Howell and Dunn.

http://my.execpc.com/CE/5F/idzikoj/gulls/hybrid.jpg

Laughings have been rarely reported in gull colonies in Green Bay on Lake
Michigan.

John Idzikowski, Milwaukee

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg Neise" <greg(AT)LPZOO.ORG>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 2:11 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Laughing X Herring Gull?

On the IN-BIRD list John Kendall posted pictures of an "apparent Laughing x
Herring Gull" at Whiting Park in Hammond. I've never heard of that combo,
and a quick Google search turned up no references. It's an
interesting-looking bird:

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=3423.0

Cheers,

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

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Subject: More Pics for Raleigh, NC Gull
From: Ricky Davis <rdnc13(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 4 Mar 2008 6:18am

Hi Folks, I wanted to let everyoneknow that more pics of the Raleigh,
NC landfill Gull have been added to the Carolina Bird Club website.
Hopefully these show mantle color and leg color better. Also
comparison to Lesser Black-backed can be made. Hope to hear from more
people as to impressions of this bird. Still no wingtip/flight pics or
details. Will try to get back there this week . Visit the pics by
going to www.carolinabirdclub.org, then Photo Gallery, then Mystery
Gull. Thanks, later, Ricky
-- 
Ricky Davis
Rocky Mount, NC

NAB-Southern Atlantic Region
The Chat-Briefs for the Files
eBird-NC Editor
NC BRC

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Subject: Possible McKay's Bunting - Washington State
From: rmcclsky <rmcclsky(AT)mindspring.com>
Date: 4 Mar 2008 7:24pm

Greetings all,

On February 17, a group of birders saw a very light Bunting in Okanogan 
County, WA calling it a McKay's Bunting. A bird consistent with that bird 
was seen again March 2.

I took several pictures this morning that I believe may be the same 
individual. I would welcome your comments. Find them here: 
http://canondigitalslrs.com

Best wishes,
Ron McCluskey
Cheney, WA 

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Subject: Gulls of the Caribbean?
From: "UFFMAN, JOSHUA P [AG/1000]" <joshua.p.uffman(AT)MONSANTO.COM>
Date: 5 Mar 2008 11:31am

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Could anyone please share with me a list of gulls and their status in
the Caribbean.  I have searched the internet, etc. and am having no luck
finding anything current.

Additionally, I would be very interested in obtaining any information on
the status of Greater and Lesser Black-backed Gulls in or near Grenada?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Joshua Uffman
St. Louis County, MO

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Subject: Bird ID articles in March/April 2008 Birding
         Online
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 5 Mar 2008 2:28pm

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Hello, Birders.
=20
Several articles on bird identification in the current (March/April 2008) i=
ssue of Birding are online:
=20
Interactions and Hybridization between Altamira and Audubon's Orioles in th=
e Lower Rio Grande Valley, by Michael Patrikeev, Jack C. Eitniear, Scott M.=
 Werner, and Paul C. Palmer
     aba.org/birding/v40n2p42.pdf
=20
Field Separation of Sooty and Short-tailed Shearwaters, by Greg Gillson
     aba.org/birding/v40n2p34.pdf
=20
Also of possible interest to F-Iders will be:
=20
Nick Block's summary of ABA-area rarities, January-February 2008
     aba.org/birding/v40n2p28.pdf
=20
Paul Hess's lead entry in "News and Notes," summarizing recent reseach show=
ing that North American kites are strikingly polyphyletic
     aba.org/birding/v40n2p30.pdf
=20
Dissect away!
=20
Ted Floyd
tedfloyd57(AT)hotmail.com
Lafayette, Boulder County, Colorado
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/=

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Subject: Re: ARIZONA - dark-backed Gull
From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jim_Pike?= <jpike44(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 6 Mar 2008 12:44pm

Hi,

Just to add to Robert's comments, the bill dimensions of this bird (ie, the 
lack of a bulbous tip) rule it out as being a Yellow-footed Gull, and, 
among other things, the rounded primary tips point to it being a second-
cycle bird. 

Jim Pike
Huntington Beach, CA  

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Subject: Costaq Rica Photos posted
From: Jerry Oldenettel <Borealowl(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 6 Mar 2008 4:54pm

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I have posted about 300 photos from a late February trip to Costa Rica put 
together by the Friends of the Bosque del Apache NWR.   My day and location 
lists and a link to the photos can be found on my home page at: 
http://www.hometown.aol.com/borealowl/.   Click on the Costa Rica link.

Jerry R. Oldenettel
Socorro, NM

**************
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL 
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