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ID-FRONTIERS for March 16-22, 2008

[ Prev Week | Next Week | Calendar Month | ID-FRONTIERS Info ]

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
 Subject From Date  Time 
 Duck for Id - A Hybrid  Anand Arya   Sun, 16 Mar 2008  11:02am 
 Re: Duck for Id - A Hybrid  Graham Etherington   Sun, 16 Mar 2008  12:42pm 
 SV: Duck for Id - A Hybrid  LM Nielsen   Sun, 16 Mar 2008  1:21pm 
 Re: Duck for Id - A Hybrid  Anand Arya   Sun, 16 Mar 2008  5:22pm 
 New bird discovered in Indonesia  Jamie Chavez   Sun, 16 Mar 2008  8:51pm 
 Re: New bird discovered in Indonesia  Don Richardson   Mon, 17 Mar 2008  4:25am 
 Re: Black-crowned Night Heron racial identification  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierr  Mon, 17 Mar 2008  6:21am 
 Great White Egret racial identification  Lee Evans   Mon, 17 Mar 2008  8:06am 
 Progne martins in Suriname  Floyd Hayes   Mon, 17 Mar 2008  10:03am 
 Re: Great White Egret racial identification  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierr  Mon, 17 Mar 2008  10:56am 
 Re: Duck for Id - A Hybrid  Mary Beth Stowe   Mon, 17 Mar 2008  12:53pm 
 Re: Great White Egret racial identification  Lee Evans   Mon, 17 Mar 2008  2:36pm 
 Great White Egret racial identification  Ian A. McLaren  Mon, 17 Mar 2008  2:45pm 
 Great White Egret racial identification  Ian A. McLaren  Mon, 17 Mar 2008  3:50pm 
 Re: Great White Egret racial identification  Lee Evans   Mon, 17 Mar 2008  3:58pm 
 Re: Great White Egret racial identification  =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierr  Tue, 18 Mar 2008  1:38am 
 Re: Great White Egret racial identification  Jim Pawlicki   Wed, 19 Mar 2008  3:58pm 
 Help with bluebird vocalizations sought  Ted Floyd   Thu, 20 Mar 2008  12:42am 
 Med or Franklin's Gull  =?windows-1252?Q?Nic  Thu, 20 Mar 2008  1:35pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  greatgrayowl(AT)AOL.COM  Thu, 20 Mar 2008  2:03pm 
 Help with Hummer on Nest  mebalestri   Thu, 20 Mar 2008  2:24pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Norman D.van Swelm  Thu, 20 Mar 2008  2:54pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Cliff and Lisa Weiss  Thu, 20 Mar 2008  4:13pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Pim Wolf   Thu, 20 Mar 2008  4:31pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  James Gilroy   Fri, 21 Mar 2008  5:16am 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Nicolas Selosse   Fri, 21 Mar 2008  5:33am 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Kevin   Fri, 21 Mar 2008  11:15am 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Pim Wolf   Fri, 21 Mar 2008  12:07pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Alvaro Jaramillo   Fri, 21 Mar 2008  12:51pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Julian Hough   Fri, 21 Mar 2008  12:59pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Pim Wolf   Fri, 21 Mar 2008  1:09pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  omissus   Fri, 21 Mar 2008  1:09pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Norman D.van Swelm  Fri, 21 Mar 2008  5:52pm 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Pim Wolf   Sat, 22 Mar 2008  2:28am 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Norman D.van Swelm  Sat, 22 Mar 2008  5:58am 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Dick Newell   Sat, 22 Mar 2008  6:55am 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Laurent Raty   Sat, 22 Mar 2008  8:00am 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Julian Hough   Sat, 22 Mar 2008  8:07am 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Norman D.van Swelm  Sat, 22 Mar 2008  8:58am 
 Fwd: Med or Franklin's Gull  Dick Newell   Sat, 22 Mar 2008  9:04am 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Laurent Raty   Sat, 22 Mar 2008  9:52am 
 Re: Med or Franklin's Gull  Norman D.van Swelm  Sat, 22 Mar 2008  11:26am 
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots. 


[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Duck for Id - A Hybrid
From: Anand Arya <anandarya01(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Mar 2008 11:02am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

A White-headed Duck was reported at Sultanpur National Park, Gurgaon, =
Haryana earlier this week
Over a dozen of Delhi Birders gathered this morning to have a look at =
the bird.

It turned out to a Hybrid.  Here are the links to images, which show all =
the different angles.

http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/D=
uck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0974).jpg?hl=3Den&part=3D4&view=3D=
1

http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/D=
uck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0966).jpg?hl=3Den&part=3D5&view=3D=
1

http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/D=
uck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0969).jpg?hl=3Den&part=3D6&view=3D=
1

http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/D=
uck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0971).jpg?hl=3Den&part=3D7&view=3D=
1

Will appreciate experts' opinion - who crossed with who.

Cheers.

Anand Arya
ANAND ARYA ASSOCIATES
STRATEGIC TURN-AROUND MANAGEMENT GROUP
353, SECTOR 15-A
NOIDA 201301
INDIA
+ 91 98182 61909
www.anandarya.com
www.okhlabirdpark.com
Canon 40D + 500mm + 1.4x + 2x TC + Gitzo + Wimberley (used for these =
images)
 1.4x or 2x TC + Gitzo + Wimberley

Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbirdwg01

Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----



[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Duck for Id - A Hybrid
From: Graham Etherington <britishbirder(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Mar 2008 12:42pm

Well, first of all, I have to say what a fantastic looking bird this
is. I've really had to hit the books on this on as my first instinct
on this bird suggested 3 different parents!!!
So let's start with the easy bit. Taking that this is a 'wild' hybrid
and both parents are of Eurasian origin, the spatulate bill, along
with the black vent, rump and tail with white outer tail feathers and
white patch at the rear of the flanks, all suggests that Northern
Shoveler must be one parent. The real teaser is what is the other
parent?
The vermiculated grey sides to the bird and the 'reinforcement' of the
black vent, along with the chestnut fringed tertials at first
suggested Gadwall to me, but where on earth does that cream-coloured
face come from?
I feel the other parent 'may' be Baikal Teal. For Baikal I'd say that
the supporting evidence for this is the chestnut fringed primaries,
cream coloured face, with dark around the eye, black vent, grey sides
with some vermiculation, and the 'pale-dark-pale' pattern of the
speculum. The creamy pattern of the face is somewhat at odds with that
of Baikal, but if you take the (variable) green patch away from the
rear of the face, it's not a bad match.

However.....there are a few features that don't match here. Most
worryingly, the bird does not have a dark chin, which is found in both
Northern Shoveler and Baikal Teal (but interestingly, not in Falcated
Duck). The size of the bird remains quite large, whereas Baikal Teal
is quite petite. There is also no sign of the white stripe down the
size of the breast, which one might expect to see. Finally, both
Baikal Teal and Northern Shoveler have deep pink and white breast
respectively. Our hybrid has quite a dark breast.

Whatever the parentage of this bird, it's a fantastic looking thing
which I'm sure will create more debate beyond my own meandering
ramblings.
Best wishes,
Graham Etherington

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Anand Arya <anandarya01(AT)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> A White-headed Duck was reported at Sultanpur National Park, Gurgaon,
> Haryana earlier this week
>
> Over a dozen of Delhi Birders gathered this morning to have a look at the
> bird.
>
> It turned out to a Hybrid.  Here are the links to images, which show all the
> different angles.
>
>
http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0974).jpg?hl=en&part=4&view=1
>
>
http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0966).jpg?hl=en&part=5&view=1
>
>
http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0969).jpg?hl=en&part=6&view=1
>
>
http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0971).jpg?hl=en&part=7&view=1
>
> Will appreciate experts' opinion - who crossed with who.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Anand Arya
> ANAND ARYA ASSOCIATES
> STRATEGIC TURN-AROUND MANAGEMENT GROUP
> 353, SECTOR 15-A
> NOIDA 201301
> INDIA
> + 91 98182 61909
> www.anandarya.com
> www.okhlabirdpark.com
> Canon 40D + 500mm + 1.4x + 2x TC + Gitzo + Wimberley (used for these images)
> 1.4x or 2x TC + Gitzo + Wimberley
>
>  Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
>  Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>

-- 
Dr. Graham Etherington
Norwich, UK

Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01

Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: SV: Duck for Id - A Hybrid
From: LM Nielsen <fuglemand(AT)YAHOO.DK>
Date: 16 Mar 2008 1:21pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

A real stunner it is for sure. I belive that the bird is actually Gadwall x
Northern shoveler. Compare to theese birds:
   
  One from Denmark
   
  http://netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=19422
   
  http://netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=19425
   
  And theese from the states
   
  http://www.flickr.com/groups/hybridbirds/discuss/72157601845174755/
   
  http://www.ascabird.org/gadshov.jpg
   
  Most Gadwall hybrids gets very light coloured cheeks. 
   
  http://10000birds.com/hybrid-mallards.htm
   
  Cheers.
   
  Lars Michael S. Nielsen
  Copenhagen
  Denmark

Anand Arya <anandarya01(AT)GMAIL.COM> skrev:
          A White-headed Duck was reported at Sultanpur National Park, Gurgaon,
Haryana earlier this week
    Over a dozen of Delhi Birders gathered this morning to have a look at the
bird.
   
  It turned out to a Hybrid.  Here are the links to images, which show all the
different angles.
   

http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0974).jpg?hl=en&part=4&view=1
   

http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0966).jpg?hl=en&part=5&view=1
   

http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0969).jpg?hl=en&part=6&view=1
   

http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0971).jpg?hl=en&part=7&view=1
   
  Will appreciate experts' opinion - who crossed with who.
   
  Cheers.
  
Anand Arya
ANAND ARYA ASSOCIATES
STRATEGIC TURN-AROUND MANAGEMENT GROUP
353, SECTOR 15-A
NOIDA 201301
INDIA
+ 91 98182 61909
www.anandarya.com
www.okhlabirdpark.com
Canon 40D + 500mm + 1.4x + 2x TC + Gitzo + Wimberley (used for these images)
1.4x or 2x TC + Gitzo + Wimberley
  Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
   Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

       
---------------------------------

 Audi, Fiat, Peugeot, Skoda, Porsche, Toyota, Ford - Kelkoo har brugte biler til
 en hver smag! Klik  her for at sammenligne priser.

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Duck for Id - A Hybrid
From: Anand Arya <anandarya01(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Mar 2008 5:22pm

Did you notice the hint of a collar in the image 0969 ?
Cheers.

Anand Arya

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Graham Etherington" <britishbirder(AT)gmail.com>
To: "Anand Arya" <anandarya01(AT)gmail.com>
Cc: <BIRDWG01(AT)listserv.arizona.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Duck for Id - A Hybrid

> Well, first of all, I have to say what a fantastic looking bird this
> is. I've really had to hit the books on this on as my first instinct
> on this bird suggested 3 different parents!!!
> So let's start with the easy bit. Taking that this is a 'wild' hybrid
> and both parents are of Eurasian origin, the spatulate bill, along
> with the black vent, rump and tail with white outer tail feathers and
> white patch at the rear of the flanks, all suggests that Northern
> Shoveler must be one parent. The real teaser is what is the other
> parent?
> The vermiculated grey sides to the bird and the 'reinforcement' of the
> black vent, along with the chestnut fringed tertials at first
> suggested Gadwall to me, but where on earth does that cream-coloured
> face come from?
> I feel the other parent 'may' be Baikal Teal. For Baikal I'd say that
> the supporting evidence for this is the chestnut fringed primaries,
> cream coloured face, with dark around the eye, black vent, grey sides
> with some vermiculation, and the 'pale-dark-pale' pattern of the
> speculum. The creamy pattern of the face is somewhat at odds with that
> of Baikal, but if you take the (variable) green patch away from the
> rear of the face, it's not a bad match.
>
> However.....there are a few features that don't match here. Most
> worryingly, the bird does not have a dark chin, which is found in both
> Northern Shoveler and Baikal Teal (but interestingly, not in Falcated
> Duck). The size of the bird remains quite large, whereas Baikal Teal
> is quite petite. There is also no sign of the white stripe down the
> size of the breast, which one might expect to see. Finally, both
> Baikal Teal and Northern Shoveler have deep pink and white breast
> respectively. Our hybrid has quite a dark breast.
>
> Whatever the parentage of this bird, it's a fantastic looking thing
> which I'm sure will create more debate beyond my own meandering
> ramblings.
> Best wishes,
> Graham Etherington
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Anand Arya <anandarya01(AT)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> A White-headed Duck was reported at Sultanpur National Park, Gurgaon,
>> Haryana earlier this week
>>
>> Over a dozen of Delhi Birders gathered this morning to have a look at the
>> bird.
>>
>> It turned out to a Hybrid.  Here are the links to images, which show all 
>> the
>> different angles.
>>
>>
http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0974).jpg?hl=en&part=4&view=1
>>
>>
http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0966).jpg?hl=en&part=5&view=1
>>
>>
http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0969).jpg?hl=en&part=6&view=1
>>
>>
http://groups.google.co.in/group/birdphotoindia/attach/55474c0071d7f777/Duck-for-ID+-+Sultanpur+-+2008.03.16+(_MG_0971).jpg?hl=en&part=7&view=1
>>
>> Will appreciate experts' opinion - who crossed with who.
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>> Anand Arya
>> ANAND ARYA ASSOCIATES
>> STRATEGIC TURN-AROUND MANAGEMENT GROUP
>> 353, SECTOR 15-A
>> NOIDA 201301
>> INDIA
>> + 91 98182 61909
>> www.anandarya.com
>> www.okhlabirdpark.com
>> Canon 40D + 500mm + 1.4x + 2x TC + Gitzo + Wimberley (used for these 
>> images)
>> 1.4x or 2x TC + Gitzo + Wimberley
>>
>>  Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
>> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>>
>>  Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Dr. Graham Etherington
> Norwich, UK 

Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01

Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: New bird discovered in Indonesia
From: Jamie Chavez <jcdendroica(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 16 Mar 2008 8:51pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

From Reuters (may be better sources) this report of a new species discovered in
Indonesia on Friday:
   
  http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080314/sc_nm/bird_indonesia_dc
   
  Jamie Chavez
  Santa Maria, CA
  www.sbcobirding.com

       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: New bird discovered in Indonesia
From: Don Richardson <donrich514(AT)SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Date: 17 Mar 2008 4:25am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

I found a photo of this bird (dead) at:
 http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?action=searchresult&Bird_ID=2841 
 
Don Richardson
Pearland Texas

----- Original Message ----
From: Jamie Chavez <jcdendroica(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:51:48 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] New bird discovered in Indonesia

From Reuters (may be better sources) this report of a new species discovered in
Indonesia on Friday:
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080314/sc_nm/bird_indonesia_dc
 
Jamie Chavez
Santa Maria, CA
www.sbcobirding.com

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. 
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Black-crowned Night Heron racial
         identification
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <pierre-andre.crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS.FR>
Date: 17 Mar 2008 6:21am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Dear all,
=20
I have absolutely never studied the racial ID of night heron, so can't cont=
ribute at all to this debate, but I'd love to hear Lee's (and others') comm=
ents on the racial ID of Great White Egret, since he seems to doubt that No=
rth American and European birds can be separated.=20
Since I started to visit the Azores, I've paid extra attention to my local =
GWE (plenty here in winter) and I have still never seen a European bird wit=
h all black legs, either in the field or in picture (at least in "winter" p=
lumage i.e. with all yellow bill).=20
All Azorean birds (not more than a few seen, all assumed to be a North Amer=
ican origin) had fully black legs.
The Azorean birds usually also have a distinctive "petite" look compared to=
 the "crane-like" structure of the European birds. I would not be confident=
 on structure differences alone but I believed until now that a combination=
 of all black legs and slightly different structure would allow identifying=
 North American birds in Europe.  I'd love to know if this is erroneous.=20
I have not found (yet) any other difference when comparing my pictures of E=
uropean versus Azorean birds.
thanks in advance for comments
Pierre

Pierre-Andr=E9 Crochet=20
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive=20
1919, route de Mende=20
34293 Montpellier cedex 5=20
France=20
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 (mobile)=20
     + 33 4 67 61 32 98 (office)=20
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38=20

=20

________________________________

De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01@L=
ISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Lee Evans
Envoy=E9 : 10 March 2008 22:03
=C0 : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Objet : [BIRDWG01] Black-crowned Night Heron racial identification

Here in the UK, we currently have a wintering BLACK-CROWNED NIGHT HERON in =
Lancashire (see images on www.Surfbirds.com) (Rare Bird Gallery) being tout=
ed in some circles as belonging to the North American form hoactli. I have =
always struggled in trying to separate the European (nominate) form from ho=
actli, especially in winter, and was wondering if anyone on this forum coul=
d kindly supply me with hard evidence for separating them. Previous writers=
 have obviously concentrated on size and the width of the white 'eye-brow',=
 and in breeding plumage, hoactli has much duller (salmon-pink) bare part c=
olouration, but these features can be subjective and the eye-brow feature i=
s variable between individuals.
=20
In fact, I parallel Night Heron racial separation with that of the respecti=
ve forms of Great White (Egret) Heron, and cannot find any tangible evidenc=
e that allows a definite prognosis either way.=20
=20
Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservation=
ist
Discussion Forum/Email Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/
Rare Bird Alert: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIr=
eland_UK400ClubBBA/
Email Address: LGREUK400(AT)aol.com
Website Address: www.uk400clubonline.co.uk <http://www.uk400clubonline.co.u=
k/>=20

Chaffinch House
8 Sandycroft Road
Little Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL
Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157
Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629
(Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences i=
n Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North Am=
erica; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and =
other related publications; Bird Tours for Birders)

--=20
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier=20
--=20

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--=20
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--

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Subject: Great White Egret racial identification
From: Lee Evans <LGREUK400(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 17 Mar 2008 8:06am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Pierre
 
The same comments I applied to BCNH also apply to North American/European 
Great White Egret separation. Here in the UK, in winter, European Great White 
Egrets often show all-black legs (but not jet-black) and are virtually
impossible
to separate from the North American form. The only slight difference (and 
this seems to be variable between individual birds) is that some birds have a 
yellowish/pale cream wash to the upper tarsi and occasionally a thin line up the
middle of the hind leg. North American birds tend to show absolutely jet-black 
legs to the thighs although this winter, a bird I personally consider is a 
North American vagrant Great White Egret on the Outer Hebrides, has 
predominantly jet-black legs but pales out towards the thighs.
 
To summarise, I believe it to be almost impossible to be certain of racial id 
unless you have ringing evidence (although of course one can surmise based on 
the weather situation at the time of the occurrence)  

Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservationist
Discussion Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) 
Rare Bird Alert: 
_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/_
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/)
Email Address: LGREUK400(AT)aol.com
Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 

Chaffinch House
8 Sandycroft Road
Little Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL
Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157
Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629
(Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences in 
Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North 
America; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and
other
related publications; Bird Tours for Birders)

   

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Subject: Progne martins in Suriname
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 17 Mar 2008 10:03am

Otte Ottema of Surinam asked me to post a query
regarding the identities of Progne martins
photographed in Suriname. If you enjoy the challenge
of identifying out-of-range martins, you'll definitely
be challenged by the diversity of martin photos posted
here:

http://webserv.nhl.nl/~ribot/english/progne.htm

Please send your responses to Otte Ottema
<research(AT)stinasu.sr>. PLEASE DO NOT SEND RESPONSES TO
ME!

Floyd Hayes
Hidden Valley Lake, CA

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Subject: Re: Great White Egret racial identification
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <pierre-andre.crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS.FR>
Date: 17 Mar 2008 10:56am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Interesting! Lee, do you have pictures of such birds?
As I said previously, I've been looking at European GWE here in S France wh=
ere we have hundreds of individuals in the winter and have still never seen=
 one with all black legs... (although I still have not checked more than a =
few tens of individuals per year for the past 3 years, so I'm sure I've not=
 seen the whole variation yet).
Pierre
=20

Pierre-Andr=E9 Crochet=20
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive=20
1919, route de Mende=20
34293 Montpellier cedex 5=20
France=20
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 (mobile)=20
     + 33 4 67 61 32 98 (office)=20
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38=20

=20

________________________________

De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01@L=
ISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Lee Evans
Envoy=E9 : 17 March 2008 16:06
=C0 : BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Objet : [BIRDWG01] Great White Egret racial identification

Pierre
=20
The same comments I applied to BCNH also apply to North American/European G=
reat White Egret separation. Here in the UK, in winter, European Great Whit=
e Egrets often show all-black legs (but not jet-black) and are virtually im=
possible to separate from the North American form. The only slight differen=
ce (and this seems to be variable between individual birds) is that some bi=
rds have a yellowish/pale cream wash to the upper tarsi and occasionally a =
thin line up the middle of the hind leg. North American birds tend to show =
absolutely jet-black legs to the thighs although this winter, a bird I pers=
onally consider is a North American vagrant Great White Egret on the Outer =
Hebrides, has predominantly jet-black legs but pales out towards the thighs.
=20
To summarise, I believe it to be almost impossible to be certain of racial =
id unless you have ringing evidence (although of course one can surmise bas=
ed on the weather situation at the time of the occurrence)=20
=20
Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservation=
ist
Discussion Forum/Email Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/
Rare Bird Alert: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIr=
eland_UK400ClubBBA/
Email Address: LGREUK400(AT)aol.com
Website Address: www.uk400clubonline.co.uk <http://www.uk400clubonline.co.u=
k/>=20

Chaffinch House
8 Sandycroft Road
Little Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL
Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157
Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629
(Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences i=
n Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North Am=
erica; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and =
other related publications; Bird Tours for Birders)

--=20
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier=20
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Subject: Re: Duck for Id - A Hybrid
From: Mary Beth Stowe <MiriamEagl(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 17 Mar 2008 12:53pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

I had one that was almost identical to this bird at the Salton Sea, Unit 1  
(California), believe it or not!  This was several years ago, but at the  time 
I figured it had some teal and Gadwall in it.  

Mary Beth  Stowe
McAllen, TX
_www.miriameaglemon.com_ (http://www.miriameaglemon.com/) 

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Subject: Re: Great White Egret racial identification
From: Lee Evans <LGREUK400(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 17 Mar 2008 2:36pm

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Pierre
 
Simply do a search on Surfbirds UK rarities gallery for 'Great White Egret'. 
A bewildering array of Oct-March black-legged individuals will surf its way to 
you, from Norfolk, through Cambs, through North Bucks to Shetland and the 
Outer Hebrides. Not only that, you need to consider the sub-Saharan population
of
African Great White Egrets. They are also very 'black-legged' outside of the 
breeding season.  

Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservationist
Discussion Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) 
Rare Bird Alert: 
_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/_
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/)
Email Address: LGREUK400(AT)aol.com
Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 

Chaffinch House
8 Sandycroft Road
Little Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL
Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157
Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629
(Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences in 
Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North 
America; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and
other
related publications; Bird Tours for Birders)

   

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Subject: Great White Egret racial identification
From: "Ian A. McLaren" <I.A.McLaren(AT)Dal.Ca>
Date: 17 Mar 2008 2:45pm

All:

A while ago, a Great Egret appeared (an early "overshoot") here in Nova Scotia
and, as you see by the comment below, the leg colour was mentioned as unusual.
I looked at the web photos (see especially the tibia in the right-hand photo,
second row, in webite below) and answered idly that, although a North
Atlantic vagrant was most unlikely (very rare in Iceland, none for Greenland),
a tropical crossing and subsbequent northward migration (as in Little Egret,
Grey Heron) was remotely plausible.

I didn't really believe that scenario, and I have seen the odd photo of N.
American Great Egret with a touch of paleness on the tibia, although
never (?) pointed out in standard sources, I think. And, I guess in some lights
black legs can look greenish. I think this makes things really difficult.

Send us one with a largely black bill!

Best, Ian McLaren

Biology Department
Dalhousie University
Halifax, NS Canada B3H 4J1

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Subject: Great White Egret racial identification
From: "Ian A. McLaren" <I.A.McLaren(AT)Dal.Ca>
Date: 17 Mar 2008 3:50pm

All::

Apologies - evidently I forgot to paste (couldn't forward from that site) the
original message and web site with photos in my mailing on the Great Egret in
NS.

Here it is, dated 9 March.
__________________________________________________________________
About 2 hours ago (now 10:39 ADT) it was reported to me by Richard
("Dick") Haliburton that he spotted an egret by the brook below his
farm in Avonport.  I checked it out and got this photo (see link).
Off the top I would say Egret but what kind: I lean to Great Egret??,
The legs are greenish not black. Neck seems to long for Cattle Egret.

http://web.mac.com/sherm39/iWeb/Site/egret080309.html

Help on confirmation would be appreciated.

Sherman

Sherman Williams

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Subject: Re: Great White Egret racial identification
From: Lee Evans <LGREUK400(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 17 Mar 2008 3:58pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

 
In a message dated 17/03/2008 22:50:54 GMT Standard Time, I.A.McLaren(AT)DAL.CA 
writes:

http://web.mac.com/sherm39/iWeb/Site/egret080309.html

Many thanks for sharing this Nova Scotia occurrence with us, and it just 
makes me wonder if this was the bird that had wintered on the Outer Hebrides
since
October and last reported in early March. To my eye, the images seem to show 
a fairly typical black colouration, but the deep green colouration you mention 
is generally only hinted at during transitional plumage.  

Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservationist
Discussion Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) 
Rare Bird Alert: 
_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/_
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/)
Email Address: LGREUK400(AT)aol.com
Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 

Chaffinch House
8 Sandycroft Road
Little Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL
Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157
Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629
(Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences in 
Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North 
America; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and
other
related publications; Bird Tours for Birders)

   

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Subject: Re: Great White Egret racial identification
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Andr=E9_CROCHET?= <pierre-andre.crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS.FR>
Date: 18 Mar 2008 1:38am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Hi Lee, Hi others,
Well, I suppose part of the misunderstanding might come from what we call '=
all black legs'. I've just done what Lee suggested to me, and none of the G=
WE on surfbirds have what I call all black legs. In all of them (all of the=
se where the tibia is fully visible up to the jonction with the feathered p=
art) the uppermost tibia at least is paler than the rest of the legs. This =
is sometimes difficult to see, but is always visible in the pictures, and I=
 suppose it would be even more obvious in the field.
The few American GWE I've seen in the Azores (only 3 well studied though ) =
had no hint of paler area on the upper tibia. So, for the moment, I remain =
unconvinced that European birds can match typical NA birds in leg colour (w=
hich, of course, does not mean I'm convinced that this is impossible...).=
=20
Thanks for the interesting discussion anyway!
Pierre
=20

Pierre-Andr=E9 Crochet=20
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive=20
1919, route de Mende=20
34293 Montpellier cedex 5=20
France=20
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 (mobile)=20
     + 33 4 67 61 32 98 (office)=20
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38=20

=20

________________________________

De : LGREUK400(AT)aol.com [mailto:LGREUK400(AT)aol.com]=20
Envoy=E9 : 17 March 2008 22:35
=C0 : Pierre-Andr=E9 CROCHET; BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] Great White Egret racial identification

Pierre
=20
Simply do a search on Surfbirds UK rarities gallery for 'Great White Egret'=
. A bewildering array of Oct-March black-legged individuals will surf its w=
ay to you, from Norfolk, through Cambs, through North Bucks to Shetland and=
 the Outer Hebrides. Not only that, you need to consider the sub-Saharan po=
pulation of African Great White Egrets. They are also very 'black-legged' o=
utside of the breeding season.=20
=20
Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservation=
ist
Discussion Forum/Email Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/
Rare Bird Alert: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIr=
eland_UK400ClubBBA/
Email Address: LGREUK400(AT)aol.com
Website Address: www.uk400clubonline.co.uk <http://www.uk400clubonline.co.u=
k/>=20

Chaffinch House
8 Sandycroft Road
Little Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL
Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157
Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629
(Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences i=
n Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North Am=
erica; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and =
other related publications; Bird Tours for Birders)

--=20
passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier=20
--=20

--=20
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Subject: Re: Great White Egret racial identification
From: Jim Pawlicki <Jmpawli88(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 19 Mar 2008 3:58pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Just to add to the discussion on American Great (White) Egrets in the  Azore=
s=20
or Europe for that matter, I was recently told first-hand of a  startling=20
banding recovery of a Great Egret which was banded as a  flightless chick on=
 27=20
June 2005 at Nottawasaga Island, Collingwood, Ontario,  Canada (located on t=
he=20
south shore of Georgian Bay, Lake Huron), which was  then seen at Vila Franc=
o=20
do Compo in the Azores only 5 months later on  November 13, 2005 by Rami=20
Lindross of Finland and several other observers. The  bird was banded by Dr.=
 Chip=20
Weseloh of the Canadian Wildlife Service as part of  an ongoing study of the=
=20
individual movements of Great Egrets nesting  at colonies located on the Gre=
at=20
Lakes.  From what I have heard,  the record constitutes the first undisputed=
=20
occurrence of A. a. egretta in Europe, and I believe the record was publishe=
d in=20
one of the European  Ornithology journals.  Perhaps those on the other side=20
of the  pond are already aware of the record; regardless I thought it would=20=
be =20
interesting to share.
=20
=20
Jim Pawlicki
Amherst, NY, USA
=20
=20
(4)  On November 13, 2005 Rami Lindroos of Finland and many other birders=20
while  vacationing in the Azores in Vila Franco do Campo spotted a Great Egr=
et of=20
the  North American race that =E2=80=9Chad a colour ring, which we managed t=
o read.=20
Rami told  me =E2=80=9CThe bird had in left tarsus a red ring with  vertical=
 black code=20
27F (2 in the bottom and F at the top). This was clearly  visible, and we=20
could read it several times without changes of mistakes. The  bird had also=20=
a=20
brownish (maybe some kind of bronze tinge metal ring in right  tarsus, with=20
horizontal code 1717-33324.=E2=80=9D Chip Weseloh states: =E2=80=9CWe've jus=
t  looked up the=20
details of 27F and aluminum band # 1717-33324. It was banded by us  as a fli=
ghtless=20
young on 27 June 2005 at Nottawasaga Island, Collingwood,  Ontario, Canada,=20
on the south shore of Georgian Bay, Lake  Huron.=E2=80=9D
=20
=20
In a message dated 3/18/2008 4:39:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, =20
pierre-andre.crochet(AT)CEFE.CNRS.FR writes:

Hi Lee, Hi  others,
Well, I suppose part of  the misunderstanding might come from what we call=20
'all black legs'. I've just  done what Lee suggested to me, and none of the=20=
GWE=20
on surfbirds have what I  call all black legs. In all of them (all of these=20
where the tibia is fully  visible up to the jonction with the feathered part=
)=20
the uppermost tibia at  least is paler than the rest of the legs. This is=20
sometimes difficult to see,  but is always visible in the pictures, and I su=
ppose it=20
would be even more  obvious in the field.
The few American GWE  I've seen in the Azores (only 3 well studied though )=20
had no hint of paler  area on the upper tibia. So, for the moment, I remain=20
unconvinced that  European birds can match typical NA birds in leg colour (w=
hich,=20
of course,  does not mean I'm convinced that this is impossible...).=20
Thanks for the  interesting discussion anyway!
Pierre

**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL=20
Home.     =20
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=3D15?ncid=3Daol=
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Subject: Help with bluebird vocalizations sought
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 20 Mar 2008 12:42am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Hello, Birders.
=20
I've been listening a fair bit of late to bluebird calls--both real bluebir=
ds in the field and recordings thereof. And I'm finding that sorting out th=
e vocal differences is an interesting challenge. Here are some things I've =
noticed:
=20
Eastern Bluebird.
* General. Delivery of vocalizations has "random" feel about it; a bird may=
 sing or call a fair bit, then clam up for a while, then give a note or son=
g or two, etc. Vocalizations are relatively loud and far-carrying.
* Flight call rich and quavering, strongly slurred or disyllabic.
* Call note highly variable; averages more scratchy than flight call.
* Song discrete and well-defined; starts with a few scratchy notes, followe=
d quickly by ~3 rich, drawling, downslurred whistles.
=20
Mountain Bluebird.
* General. Delivery of vocalizations rambling, but not "random"; a vocalizi=
ng bird sings or calls at a fairly even clip over the long run, but halting=
ly over the short run. Most vocalizations are soft, and are hard to hear at=
 a distance. I think Mountains are actually fairly vocal, but just so darne=
d quiet.
* Flight call harsh and quavering, moderately slurred or weakly disyllabic;=
 suggests a soft Veery.
* Call note has distinctive muffled quality; short-duration, rough overall,=
 slighly descending.
* Song rambling and insipid, consisting of one to many disyllabic elements =
that are sweeter than flight call; overall song substantially longer in dur=
ation than Eastern.
=20
Western Bluebird.
* General. Songs and calls are intermediate between Eastern and Mountain. V=
ocalizations are louder and "better" than Mountain, but Western is the leas=
t vocal bluebird. Compared to Eastern, vocalizations of Western average low=
er-pitched.
* Flight call often disyllabic like Eastern, but tends to be closer in timb=
re to the harsh flight call of Mountain.
* Call note breathy and ringing; some are quite muffled like Mountain, but =
others are closer to the "bright" and "cheery" calls of Eastern.
* Song like an Eastern in slow-motion: tends to begin with a scratchy note =
or two, then a few rough whistles. Slow, deliberate cadence distinctive.
=20
All bluebirds.
* All give clicking calls, either singly or in series. They are short, abru=
pt, mid-frequency calls that are usually soft and hard to hear at a distanc=
e. I haven't been able to figure out differences among the species, and I c=
an't really tell the function of these clicking calls.
* All seem to "mix and match" vocal elements, to the point that it's not al=
ways clear to me that I'm hearing an actual flight call, or a more-general =
call note, or even a song. To me, "song" vs. "flight call" vs. "call note" =
of, say, Townsend's Solitaire or Swainson's Thrush tends to be pretty clear=
-cut. But not so, in my experience, with bluebirds. I wonder if the bluebir=
ds even know what they're doing.
=20
Any feedback on the preceding? I'm not claiming that any of it is somehow d=
efinitive. It's just what I've been noticing in the field, transcribing in =
my field notes, and (to a lesser extent) noticing on sonograms. I'm still l=
earning.
=20
Here in Colorado, anyhow, bluebird ID is not entirely trivial. Sure, adult =
males are easy, but other plumages are trickier; we get both mixed-species =
flocks and lone individuals with no "reference"; statewide distributional p=
atterns are perhaps in flux; and, simplifying somewhat, all bluebirds are "=
possible anywhere" in the state (especially right now, during migration). S=
o it would be good to get a handle on bluebird vocalizations. Help?
=20
Ted Floyd
tedfloyd57(AT)hotmail.com
Lafayette, Boulder County, Colorado
_________________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts!=A0Play the word scramble challenge with sta=
r power.
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Subject: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: =?windows-1252?Q?Nicolas_Selosse?= <nicolas.selosse(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 20 Mar 2008 1:35pm

Hi,
Please have a look at this picture (the second one on the second line) 
named "Mediterranean Gull uncommon 1st winter" (in fact 1st summer):
http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html
This is a compo of six poor shots taken Tuesday at Cap Gris-nez (Northern 
France) during a seawatching session. The bird past quickly with a group of 
Black-headed, Common and Mediterranean Gull and the duration of our 
observation did'nt exceed 15 seconds.
I do not give further details at the moment, I'm first waiting on your raw 
impression.
Nicolas Selosse, Belgium

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Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: greatgrayowl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 20 Mar 2008 2:03pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

 Hi all:

I would think that the white outer web to the right R6 would be evident if the
bird were a Franklin's.

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolas Selosse <nicolas.selosse(AT)GMAIL.COM>
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 2:25 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Med or Franklin's Gull

Hi,
Please have a look at this picture (the second one on the second line) 
named "Mediterranean Gull uncommon 1st winter" (in fact 1st summer):
http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html
This is a compo of six poor shots taken Tuesday at Cap Gris-nez (Northern 
France) during a seawatching session. The bird past quickly with a group of 
Black-headed, Common and Mediterranean Gull and the duration of our 
observation did'nt exceed 15 seconds.
I do not give further details at the moment, I'm first waiting on your raw 
impression.
Nicolas Selosse, Belgium

Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01

    Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

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Subject: Help with Hummer on Nest
From: mebalestri <mebalestri(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 20 Mar 2008 2:24pm

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

This picture was taken in April 2006 at Patagonia Lake in Arizona.  Can
someone out there help me with the ID?

http://livingat28.vox.com/library/photo/6a00e398ac0a2f000200e398e7e2fc0005.h
tml

 
-- 
Marcia Balestri
Frederick, MD
mebalestri(AT)comcast.net

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Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 20 Mar 2008 2:54pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

  Tony Leukering wrote:> I would think that the white outer web to the =
right R6 would be evident if the bird were a Franklin's.<

  and the same is true for Mediterranean Gull, have a look here:
    http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/smallgulls/3b-medgulls.htm

  Frankly, I see nothing that contradicts 2nd CY Franklin's.
  Norman

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Nicolas Selosse <nicolas.selosse(AT)GMAIL.COM>
  To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
  Sent: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 2:25 pm
  Subject: [BIRDWG01] Med or Franklin's Gull

  Please have a look at this picture (the second one on the second line) =

  named "Mediterranean Gull uncommon 1st winter" (in fact 1st summer):

  http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html

  This is a compo of six poor shots taken Tuesday at Cap Gris-nez =
(Northern=20

  France) during a seawatching session. The bird past quickly with a =
group of=20

  Black-headed, Common and Mediterranean Gull and the duration of our=20

  observation did'nt exceed 15 seconds.

  I do not give further details at the moment, I'm first waiting on your =
raw=20

  impression.

  Nicolas Selosse, Belgium

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Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: Cliff and Lisa Weisse <CliffandLisa(AT)OCTOBERSETTERS.COM>
Date: 20 Mar 2008 4:13pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

I have to agree with Tony.  The white outer webs of the rects are not 
difficult to see and I would think it would be obvious in at least some 
of these shots.  Also that bill looks a bit  large for a Franklin's Gull.

Cliff

Norman D.van Swelm wrote:
>  
>
>     Tony Leukering wrote:> I would think that the white outer web to
>     the right R6 would be evident if the bird were a Franklin's.<
>     and the same is true for Mediterranean Gull, have a look here:
>
>       http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/smallgulls/3b-medgulls.htm
>      
>     Frankly, I see nothing that contradicts 2nd CY Franklin's.
>     Norman
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Nicolas Selosse <nicolas.selosse(AT)GMAIL.COM
>     <mailto:nicolas.selosse(AT)GMAIL.COM>>
>     To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>     <mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
>     Sent: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 2:25 pm
>     Subject: [BIRDWG01] Med or Franklin's Gull
>
>     Please have a look at this picture (the second one on the second
>     line)
>
>     named "Mediterranean Gull uncommon 1st winter" (in fact 1st summer):
>
>     http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html
>
>     This is a compo of six poor shots taken Tuesday at Cap Gris-nez
>     (Northern
>
>     France) during a seawatching session. The bird past quickly with a
>     group of
>
>     Black-headed, Common and Mediterranean Gull and the duration of our
>
>     observation did'nt exceed 15 seconds.
>
>     I do not give further details at the moment, I'm first waiting on
>     your raw
>
>     impression.
>
>     Nicolas Selosse, Belgium
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: 
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

-- 
Cliff and Lisa Weisse
Island Park, Idaho
cliffandlisa(AT)octobersetters.com

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Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: Pim Wolf <pim.wolf(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 20 Mar 2008 4:31pm

hi all,

i agree with Nicolas's original id as Med Gull but Norman is right
about one thing, there are more than a few Med Gulls with a completely
white t6 and restricted black on t5. In those birds, on a view like
this, it would be just as easy to see as on a Franklin's Gull.

cheers, pim wolf (NL)

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Cliff and Lisa Weisse
<CliffandLisa(AT)octobersetters.com> wrote:
> I have to agree with Tony.  The white outer webs of the rects are not
> difficult to see and I would think it would be obvious in at least some of
> these shots.  Also that bill looks a bit  large for a Franklin's Gull.
>
> Cliff
>
>
>
> Norman D.van Swelm wrote:
>
> Tony Leukering wrote:> I would think that the white outer web to the right
> R6 would be evident if the bird were a Franklin's.<
> and the same is true for Mediterranean Gull, have a look here:
>   http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/smallgulls/3b-medgulls.htm
>
> Frankly, I see nothing that contradicts 2nd CY Franklin's.
> Norman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicolas Selosse <nicolas.selosse(AT)GMAIL.COM>
> To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Sent: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 2:25 pm
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Med or Franklin's Gull
>
> Please have a look at this picture (the second one on the second line)
>
> named "Mediterranean Gull uncommon 1st winter" (in fact 1st summer):
>
> http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html
>
> This is a compo of six poor shots taken Tuesday at Cap Gris-nez (Northern
>
> France) during a seawatching session. The bird past quickly with a group of
>
> Black-headed, Common and Mediterranean Gull and the duration of our
>
> observation did'nt exceed 15 seconds.
>
> I do not give further details at the moment, I'm first waiting on your raw
>
> impression.
>
> Nicolas Selosse, Belgium
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> --
> Cliff and Lisa Weisse
> Island Park,
> Idaho
> cliffandlisa(AT)octobersetters.com
>
>
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Pim Wolf Vlissingen The Netherlands +31 6227 834 28

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Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: James Gilroy <james.gilroy1(AT)GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Date: 21 Mar 2008 5:16am

Perhaps my screen is playing tricks on me, but I wouldn't be happy
calling this a Med Gull. Making an ID based on the apparent lack of a
white R6 seems a bit of a stretch based on these blurry images (and as
Pim and Norman have pointed out, doesn't necessarily support ID as Med
Gull anyway).

Regarding the features that can be seen more reliably in the images,
the following things don't stack up for 2cal Med Gull:
Diffuse dark underside to the primaries (should be very white, with
contrasting black tips);
Relatively dark grey webs on inner primaries (should be strikingly pale);
Lack of contrasting pale greater secondary coverts;
Clear diffuse dark bar across breast extending onto flanks;
Extremely dark head, with dark extending far down the nape;

The structure, head shape and bill shape also don't quite fit for Med
Gull in my eyes.

Is it a Franklin's Gull? I wouldn't say for certain. As others have
said, the bill is a little on the long side, and the dark underwing
and breast/flanks are also slightly anomalous, more recalling Laughing
Gull. Maybe that Euro-wandering adult Laugher finally managed to find
a willing mate in a Med Gull colony somewhere?

On 20/03/2008, Pim Wolf <pim.wolf(AT)gmail.com> wrote:
> hi all,
>
> i agree with Nicolas's original id as Med Gull but Norman is right
> about one thing, there are more than a few Med Gulls with a completely
> white t6 and restricted black on t5. In those birds, on a view like
> this, it would be just as easy to see as on a Franklin's Gull.
>
> cheers, pim wolf (NL)
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Cliff and Lisa Weisse
> <CliffandLisa(AT)octobersetters.com> wrote:
> > I have to agree with Tony.  The white outer webs of the rects are not
> > difficult to see and I would think it would be obvious in at least some of
> > these shots.  Also that bill looks a bit  large for a Franklin's Gull.
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> >
> > Norman D.van Swelm wrote:
> >
> > Tony Leukering wrote:> I would think that the white outer web to the right
> > R6 would be evident if the bird were a Franklin's.<
> > and the same is true for Mediterranean Gull, have a look here:
> >   http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/smallgulls/3b-medgulls.htm
> >
> > Frankly, I see nothing that contradicts 2nd CY Franklin's.
> > Norman
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nicolas Selosse <nicolas.selosse(AT)GMAIL.COM>
> > To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> > Sent: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 2:25 pm
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Med or Franklin's Gull
> >
> > Please have a look at this picture (the second one on the second line)
> >
> > named "Mediterranean Gull uncommon 1st winter" (in fact 1st summer):
> >
> > http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html
> >
> > This is a compo of six poor shots taken Tuesday at Cap Gris-nez (Northern
> >
> > France) during a seawatching session. The bird past quickly with a group of
> >
> > Black-headed, Common and Mediterranean Gull and the duration of our
> >
> > observation did'nt exceed 15 seconds.
> >
> > I do not give further details at the moment, I'm first waiting on your raw
> >
> > impression.
> >
> > Nicolas Selosse, Belgium
> >
> >
> > Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cliff and Lisa Weisse
> > Island Park,
> > Idaho
> > cliffandlisa(AT)octobersetters.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pim Wolf Vlissingen The Netherlands +31 6227 834 28
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

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Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: Nicolas Selosse <nicolas.selosse(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 21 Mar 2008 5:33am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

That's an explanation which was also given yesterday on the belgian
mailing-list by Geert Spanoghe and since supported by a few others.
Against this very little to say because nothing is known about.
I stay on my field impression, the jizz was identical in every points to the
accompagnying Med Gulls (from 3 different class ages).
Regards
Nicolas Selosse
Belgium

2008/3/21, James Gilroy <james.gilroy1(AT)googlemail.com>:
>
> Perhaps my screen is playing tricks on me, but I wouldn't be happy
> calling this a Med Gull. Making an ID based on the apparent lack of a
> white R6 seems a bit of a stretch based on these blurry images (and as
> Pim and Norman have pointed out, doesn't necessarily support ID as Med
> Gull anyway).
>
> Regarding the features that can be seen more reliably in the images,
> the following things don't stack up for 2cal Med Gull:
> Diffuse dark underside to the primaries (should be very white, with
> contrasting black tips);
> Relatively dark grey webs on inner primaries (should be strikingly pale);
> Lack of contrasting pale greater secondary coverts;
> Clear diffuse dark bar across breast extending onto flanks;
> Extremely dark head, with dark extending far down the nape;
>
> The structure, head shape and bill shape also don't quite fit for Med
> Gull in my eyes.
>
> Is it a Franklin's Gull? I wouldn't say for certain. As others have
> said, the bill is a little on the long side, and the dark underwing
> and breast/flanks are also slightly anomalous, more recalling Laughing
> Gull. Maybe that Euro-wandering adult Laugher finally managed to find
> a willing mate in a Med Gull colony somewhere?
>
> On 20/03/2008, Pim Wolf <pim.wolf(AT)gmail.com> wrote:
> > hi all,
> >
> > i agree with Nicolas's original id as Med Gull but Norman is right
> > about one thing, there are more than a few Med Gulls with a completely
> > white t6 and restricted black on t5. In those birds, on a view like
> > this, it would be just as easy to see as on a Franklin's Gull.
> >
> > cheers, pim wolf (NL)
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Cliff and Lisa Weisse
> > <CliffandLisa(AT)octobersetters.com> wrote:
> > > I have to agree with Tony.  The white outer webs of the rects are not
> > > difficult to see and I would think it would be obvious in at least
> some of
> > > these shots.  Also that bill looks a bit  large for a Franklin's Gull.
> > >
> > > Cliff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Norman D.van Swelm wrote:
> > >
> > > Tony Leukering wrote:> I would think that the white outer web to the
> right
> > > R6 would be evident if the bird were a Franklin's.<
> > > and the same is true for Mediterranean Gull, have a look here:
> > >   http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/smallgulls/3b-medgulls.htm
> > >
> > > Frankly, I see nothing that contradicts 2nd CY Franklin's.
> > > Norman
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Nicolas Selosse <nicolas.selosse(AT)GMAIL.COM>
> > > To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> > > Sent: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 2:25 pm
> > > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Med or Franklin's Gull
> > >
> > > Please have a look at this picture (the second one on the second line)
> > >
> > > named "Mediterranean Gull uncommon 1st winter" (in fact 1st summer):
> > >
> > > http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html
> > >
> > > This is a compo of six poor shots taken Tuesday at Cap Gris-nez
> (Northern
> > >
> > > France) during a seawatching session. The bird past quickly with a
> group of
> > >
> > > Black-headed, Common and Mediterranean Gull and the duration of our
> > >
> > > observation did'nt exceed 15 seconds.
> > >
> > > I do not give further details at the moment, I'm first waiting on your
> raw
> > >
> > > impression.
> > >
> > > Nicolas Selosse, Belgium
> > >
> > >
> > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> > > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
> > >
> > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cliff and Lisa Weisse
> > > Island Park,
> > > Idaho
> > > cliffandlisa(AT)octobersetters.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> > > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
> > >
> > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pim Wolf Vlissingen The Netherlands +31 6227 834 28
> >
> >
> > Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

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Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: Kevin <kevinmc(AT)MOUNTAINCABLE.NET>
Date: 21 Mar 2008 11:15am

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Nicolas et al. Just thought I would pick up on a few of the comments =
made by James Gilroy on the French gull. He has suggested some features =
which would seem to rule out both Franklin's and Med Gull. In my =
opinion, this bird is a fairly typical first winter ( =3D first basic ) =
Laughing Gull. I have only a few caveats to put forth re the head =
pattern and the mantle shade. I might suggest that the bird is =
undergoing molt of the head feathers which is resulting in a darker head =
than would be normal in first winter Laughing. This is creating a strong =
hooded effect on the bird. The only feature that would potentially lead =
me towards any idea of a Med X Laughing might be the seemingly pale =
mantle shade. However, the photos were all taken from the side and I am =
choosing to diminish the value of this as there is a need to see more =
angles and differing light conditions. Every other structural and =
plumage feature is consistent with Laughing in my view.

I will discuss a few critical points which take me away from both first =
winter Franklin's and Med. We realize that the conditions for =
photography have resulted in less than sharp images and I am taking that =
into account.

Bill   -   Looks like a typical Laughing bill in being both lengthy and =
deep. It looks particularly deep at the base compared to Franklin's.

Eye arcs   -   As this bird more resembles Franklin's to me than Med, I =
will approach this feature on that basis. The arcs give the sense of =
being relatively narrow from top to bottom, as in Laughing, not having =
the "wide-eyed" look of Franklin's. I grant that the fuzziness of the =
photos may take away from this somewhat.

Head pattern   -   I can appreciate Franklin's as the being a putative =
call on this bird. I sense that the strong half hooded effect is the =
result of first prealternate molt. My question to European observers is =
can any second calendar year Med Gull have this dense of a hood by =
March?

Wing pattern   -   The mid-wing would be comparable in Franklin's and =
Laughing. I need to stress what James has already pointed out re Med =
Gull concerning the mid wing panel. There is too little contrast between =
the greater secondary coverts and the remainder of the wing, =
particularly the secondary bar. The effect is medium gray-brown greater =
coverts against a very dark brown or black secondary bar in this bird, =
versus pale gray greater coverts against a black(?) bar in Med Gull..

Breast pattern   -   To me this is the clinching point. Of the three =
species early in the second calendar year, only Laughing will typically =
possess the smooth gray breastband and flank wash shown by this bird or =
at least will show it in many individuals.

Kevin McLaughlin,
Hamilton, Ontario
CANADA.

=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Nicolas Selosse=20
  To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
  Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 8:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Med or Franklin's Gull

  That's an explanation which was also given yesterday on the belgian =
mailing-list by Geert Spanoghe and since supported by a few others.
  Against this very little to say because nothing is known about.
  I stay on my field impression, the jizz was identical in every points =
to the accompagnying Med Gulls (from 3 different class ages).
  Regards
  Nicolas Selosse
  Belgium

  =20
  2008/3/21, James Gilroy <james.gilroy1(AT)googlemail.com>:=20
    Perhaps my screen is playing tricks on me, but I wouldn't be happy
    calling this a Med Gull. Making an ID based on the apparent lack of =
a
    white R6 seems a bit of a stretch based on these blurry images (and =
as
    Pim and Norman have pointed out, doesn't necessarily support ID as =
Med
    Gull anyway).

    Regarding the features that can be seen more reliably in the images,
    the following things don't stack up for 2cal Med Gull:
    Diffuse dark underside to the primaries (should be very white, with
    contrasting black tips);
    Relatively dark grey webs on inner primaries (should be strikingly =
pale);
    Lack of contrasting pale greater secondary coverts;
    Clear diffuse dark bar across breast extending onto flanks;
    Extremely dark head, with dark extending far down the nape;

    The structure, head shape and bill shape also don't quite fit for =
Med
    Gull in my eyes.

    Is it a Franklin's Gull? I wouldn't say for certain. As others have
    said, the bill is a little on the long side, and the dark underwing
    and breast/flanks are also slightly anomalous, more recalling =
Laughing
    Gull. Maybe that Euro-wandering adult Laugher finally managed to =
find
    a willing mate in a Med Gull colony somewhere?

    On 20/03/2008, Pim Wolf <pim.wolf(AT)gmail.com> wrote:
    > hi all,
    >
    > i agree with Nicolas's original id as Med Gull but Norman is right
    > about one thing, there are more than a few Med Gulls with a =
completely
    > white t6 and restricted black on t5. In those birds, on a view =
like
    > this, it would be just as easy to see as on a Franklin's Gull.
    >
    > cheers, pim wolf (NL)
    >
    > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Cliff and Lisa Weisse
    > <CliffandLisa(AT)octobersetters.com> wrote:
    > > I have to agree with Tony.  The white outer webs of the rects =
are not
    > > difficult to see and I would think it would be obvious in at =
least some of
    > > these shots.  Also that bill looks a bit  large for a Franklin's =
Gull.
    > >
    > > Cliff
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Norman D.van Swelm wrote:
    > >
    > > Tony Leukering wrote:> I would think that the white outer web to =
the right
    > > R6 would be evident if the bird were a Franklin's.<
    > > and the same is true for Mediterranean Gull, have a look here:
    > >   =
http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/smallgulls/3b-medgulls.htm
    > >
    > > Frankly, I see nothing that contradicts 2nd CY Franklin's.
    > > Norman
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: Nicolas Selosse <nicolas.selosse(AT)GMAIL.COM>
    > > To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
    > > Sent: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 2:25 pm
    > > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Med or Franklin's Gull
    > >
    > > Please have a look at this picture (the second one on the second =
line)
    > >
    > > named "Mediterranean Gull uncommon 1st winter" (in fact 1st =
summer):
    > >
    > > http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html
    > >
    > > This is a compo of six poor shots taken Tuesday at Cap Gris-nez =
(Northern
    > >
    > > France) during a seawatching session. The bird past quickly with =
a group of
    > >
    > > Black-headed, Common and Mediterranean Gull and the duration of =
our
    > >
    > > observation did'nt exceed 15 seconds.
    > >
    > > I do not give further details at the moment, I'm first waiting =
on your raw
    > >
    > > impression.
    > >
    > > Nicolas Selosse, Belgium
    > >
    > >
    > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
    > > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbirdwg01
    > >
    > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > Cliff and Lisa Weisse
    > > Island Park,
    > > Idaho
    > > cliffandlisa(AT)octobersetters.com
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
    > > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbirdwg01
    > >
    > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Pim Wolf Vlissingen The Netherlands +31 6227 834 28
    >
    >
    > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: =
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbirdwg01
    >
    > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
    >

    Join or Leave BIRDWG01: =
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: Pim Wolf <pim.wolf(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 21 Mar 2008 12:07pm

hi all,

Kevin raises a few points that i'd like to clarify and some that need
clarification by others.

I guess we all agree that the pictures are not just less than sharp,
they were taken on a dark day with a lot of wind. This may explain why
the bird looks so dark. I don't think it can be used to "explain
away"what is clearly a pale back. I can't really see how in three
differet pictures taken under different angles these lightconditions
would somehow make the back look paler, yet at the same time have no
effect on the wings.

One of my assumptions when i first saw the pictures (still at
http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html) has been that not only ar
these pictures a bit dark, the bird is as well. There is a lot of
variation in both the extent of the post-juvenile moult but also in
the pigment levels. Some young birds are quite pale whilst others are
clearly darker than average with most of the variation in intensity of
the covert colour.

Of the three things that look odd for a Mediterranean Gull (the
pattern on the sides of the breast and flank, the colour of the
greater coverts and the dark hood) at least the greater coverts can be
explained by pigment levels. The head pattern is the most extreme i
have seen on a bird this age in March but there are birds with a full
black hood in May-June. I can't explain the breast band and flank
colour, I've never seen that much patterning on the undersides of a
Med Gull after October but remember that Med Gull has a lot of dark
patterning on the underparts in juvenile plumage.

A few of the points Kevin made are repeated below with my comments

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:15 PM, Kevin <kevinmc(AT)mountaincable.net> wrote:
> Bill   -   Looks like a typical Laughing bill in being both lengthy and
> deep. It looks particularly deep at the base compared to Franklin's.

That may be the case but it's also a really typical Med Gull bill.

> Eye arcs   -   As this bird more resembles Franklin's to me than Med, I will
> approach this feature on that basis. The arcs give the sense of being
> relatively narrow from top to bottom, as in Laughing, not having the
> "wide-eyed" look of Franklin's. I grant that the fuzziness of the photos may
> take away from this somewhat.

Or, from my perspective, very much like a Med Gull

> Head pattern   -   I can appreciate Franklin's as the being a putative call
> on this bird. I sense that the strong half hooded effect is the result of
> first prealternate molt. My question to European observers is can any second
> calendar year Med Gull have this dense of a hood by March?

I have never seen one that has this full a hood, and know of no
photographs showing one. There is one other thing about the
headpattern that is strange for a classic Med Gull. On nearly all
birds the forehead is the last to be moulted, there is a lot of
variation in head moult though, just like in Black-headed Gulls.

> Wing pattern   -   The mid-wing would be comparable in Franklin's and
> Laughing. I need to stress what James has already pointed out re Med Gull
> concerning the mid wing panel. There is too little contrast between the
> greater secondary coverts and the remainder of the wing, particularly the
> secondary bar. The effect is medium gray-brown greater coverts against a
> very dark brown or black secondary bar in this bird, versus pale gray
> greater coverts against a black(?) bar in Med Gull..

See comments above and note that in the lower right of the composit it
would seem that the greater coverts are a lot paler than the median
and lesser coverts..

> Breast pattern   -   To me this is the clinching point. Of the three species
> early in the second calendar year, only Laughing will typically possess the
> smooth gray breastband and flank wash shown by this bird or at least will
> show it in many individuals.

 I agree with Kevin that it looks like a Laughing Gulls breast, i've
never seen anything like this on a Med Gull. At the same time i'd like
to stress that Nicolas and Ludovic are sure that this bird was clearly
a Med Gull on structure. To put that into perspective, their migration
watch point lies close to the largest concentration of Med Gull on the
northern coast of France (100's of birds) and the bird was seen
together with or close to several other Med Gulls of various ages.

cheers, pim wolf

-- 
Pim Wolf Vlissingen The Netherlands +31 6227 834 28

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 21 Mar 2008 12:51pm

Folks

  A quick opinion here, but this does not look like either a Laughing or a
Franklin's Gull to me. Some of it is gut feel for these birds, Franklin's
being a bird I see by the thousands each year in winter. Laughing I get a
good dose of in yearly trips to Florida, and the Caribbean. One point that
has been mentioned, but I will underscore is that the grey upperparts of
this bird are way too pale for Laughing or Franklin's. Even accounting for
odd lighting in the photos, the contrast between the scapulars/back and
wings and hood is just too great for those species. The underpart pattern is
not good for Laughing, particularly the fact that the flanks are nearly
white. I don't know Med Gull, but Pim's suggestion is very logical to me.
This is a Med Gull with more melanin than it knows what to do with. I have
seen this same type of thing on Little Gull and Bonaparte's Gull, birds that
had amazing amounts of dark on the upperwings and body plumage. 
	
Cheers

Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
 
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Pim Wolf
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 12:07 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Med or Franklin's Gull

hi all,

Kevin raises a few points that i'd like to clarify and some that need
clarification by others.

I guess we all agree that the pictures are not just less than sharp,
they were taken on a dark day with a lot of wind. This may explain why
the bird looks so dark. I don't think it can be used to "explain
away"what is clearly a pale back. I can't really see how in three
differet pictures taken under different angles these lightconditions
would somehow make the back look paler, yet at the same time have no
effect on the wings.

One of my assumptions when i first saw the pictures (still at
http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html) has been that not only ar
these pictures a bit dark, the bird is as well. There is a lot of
variation in both the extent of the post-juvenile moult but also in
the pigment levels. Some young birds are quite pale whilst others are
clearly darker than average with most of the variation in intensity of
the covert colour.

Of the three things that look odd for a Mediterranean Gull (the
pattern on the sides of the breast and flank, the colour of the
greater coverts and the dark hood) at least the greater coverts can be
explained by pigment levels. The head pattern is the most extreme i
have seen on a bird this age in March but there are birds with a full
black hood in May-June. I can't explain the breast band and flank
colour, I've never seen that much patterning on the undersides of a
Med Gull after October but remember that Med Gull has a lot of dark
patterning on the underparts in juvenile plumage.

A few of the points Kevin made are repeated below with my comments

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:15 PM, Kevin <kevinmc(AT)mountaincable.net> wrote:
> Bill   -   Looks like a typical Laughing bill in being both lengthy and
> deep. It looks particularly deep at the base compared to Franklin's.

That may be the case but it's also a really typical Med Gull bill.

> Eye arcs   -   As this bird more resembles Franklin's to me than Med, I
will
> approach this feature on that basis. The arcs give the sense of being
> relatively narrow from top to bottom, as in Laughing, not having the
> "wide-eyed" look of Franklin's. I grant that the fuzziness of the photos
may
> take away from this somewhat.

Or, from my perspective, very much like a Med Gull

> Head pattern   -   I can appreciate Franklin's as the being a putative
call
> on this bird. I sense that the strong half hooded effect is the result of
> first prealternate molt. My question to European observers is can any
second
> calendar year Med Gull have this dense of a hood by March?

I have never seen one that has this full a hood, and know of no
photographs showing one. There is one other thing about the
headpattern that is strange for a classic Med Gull. On nearly all
birds the forehead is the last to be moulted, there is a lot of
variation in head moult though, just like in Black-headed Gulls.

> Wing pattern   -   The mid-wing would be comparable in Franklin's and
> Laughing. I need to stress what James has already pointed out re Med Gull
> concerning the mid wing panel. There is too little contrast between the
> greater secondary coverts and the remainder of the wing, particularly the
> secondary bar. The effect is medium gray-brown greater coverts against a
> very dark brown or black secondary bar in this bird, versus pale gray
> greater coverts against a black(?) bar in Med Gull..

See comments above and note that in the lower right of the composit it
would seem that the greater coverts are a lot paler than the median
and lesser coverts..

> Breast pattern   -   To me this is the clinching point. Of the three
species
> early in the second calendar year, only Laughing will typically possess
the
> smooth gray breastband and flank wash shown by this bird or at least will
> show it in many individuals.

 I agree with Kevin that it looks like a Laughing Gulls breast, i've
never seen anything like this on a Med Gull. At the same time i'd like
to stress that Nicolas and Ludovic are sure that this bird was clearly
a Med Gull on structure. To put that into perspective, their migration
watch point lies close to the largest concentration of Med Gull on the
northern coast of France (100's of birds) and the bird was seen
together with or close to several other Med Gulls of various ages.

cheers, pim wolf

-- 
Pim Wolf Vlissingen The Netherlands +31 6227 834 28

Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 21 Mar 2008 12:59pm

I believe the bird is a 2nd-cal yr Mediterannean Gull (first-winter) that 
has acquired more dark hood feathers than is typical of this age.
All the features, especially the chesty, compact shape to the body, rather 
broad and perhaps more rounded wings (compared with say a Laughing Gull) and 
the thick bill with a slight curve to the upper mandible fit Med Gull. The 
pattern of the inner primaries, forming a pale inner window with each 
feather having a dark blob-ended tip fits Med Gull. First-winter Franklins 
have a nice broad white trailing edge that continues across all the 
secondaries onto the all-dark inner primaries, a pattern  which doesn't fit 
the Cap Gris Nez bird. Also, referencing photos, the pale tipped greater 
coverts of the Cap bird may also be a feature more in favor of a 
first-winter Med Gull rather than any nearctic species.

The darkness of the hood, I think, is the only feature that prompts a 
suggestion of Franklin's..and rightly so, but a closer examination of 
structure and bill shape seems at odds with this. Laughing Gull can be 
eliminated on bill size, overall shape and structure, bill and head pattern 
and underpart pattern (lack of dusky wash to the flanks etc). I cannot judge 
from the photos any details on tail pattern that add to the id.

Seeing this bird in the field, with no photos to analyze later in the 
comfort of a cold beer, I can see why this bird is a tricky one.

Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net

www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pim Wolf" <pim.wolf(AT)GMAIL.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Med or Franklin's Gull

> hi all,
>
> Kevin raises a few points that i'd like to clarify and some that need
> clarification by others.
>
> I guess we all agree that the pictures are not just less than sharp,
> they were taken on a dark day with a lot of wind. This may explain why
> the bird looks so dark. I don't think it can be used to "explain
> away"what is clearly a pale back. I can't really see how in three
> differet pictures taken under different angles these lightconditions
> would somehow make the back look paler, yet at the same time have no
> effect on the wings.
>
> One of my assumptions when i first saw the pictures (still at
> http://seawatchcgn.free.fr/indx%20UK.html) has been that not only ar
> these pictures a bit dark, the bird is as well. There is a lot of
> variation in both the extent of the post-juvenile moult but also in
> the pigment levels. Some young birds are quite pale whilst others are
> clearly darker than average with most of the variation in intensity of
> the covert colour.
>
> Of the three things that look odd for a Mediterranean Gull (the
> pattern on the sides of the breast and flank, the colour of the
> greater coverts and the dark hood) at least the greater coverts can be
> explained by pigment levels. The head pattern is the most extreme i
> have seen on a bird this age in March but there are birds with a full
> black hood in May-June. I can't explain the breast band and flank
> colour, I've never seen that much patterning on the undersides of a
> Med Gull after October but remember that Med Gull has a lot of dark
> patterning on the underparts in juvenile plumage.
>
> A few of the points Kevin made are repeated below with my comments
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:15 PM, Kevin <kevinmc(AT)mountaincable.net> wrote:
>> Bill   -   Looks like a typical Laughing bill in being both lengthy and
>> deep. It looks particularly deep at the base compared to Franklin's.
>
> That may be the case but it's also a really typical Med Gull bill.
>
>> Eye arcs   -   As this bird more resembles Franklin's to me than Med, I 
>> will
>> approach this feature on that basis. The arcs give the sense of being
>> relatively narrow from top to bottom, as in Laughing, not having the
>> "wide-eyed" look of Franklin's. I grant that the fuzziness of the photos 
>> may
>> take away from this somewhat.
>
> Or, from my perspective, very much like a Med Gull
>
>> Head pattern   -   I can appreciate Franklin's as the being a putative 
>> call
>> on this bird. I sense that the strong half hooded effect is the result of
>> first prealternate molt. My question to European observers is can any 
>> second
>> calendar year Med Gull have this dense of a hood by March?
>
> I have never seen one that has this full a hood, and know of no
> photographs showing one. There is one other thing about the
> headpattern that is strange for a classic Med Gull. On nearly all
> birds the forehead is the last to be moulted, there is a lot of
> variation in head moult though, just like in Black-headed Gulls.
>
>> Wing pattern   -   The mid-wing would be comparable in Franklin's and
>> Laughing. I need to stress what James has already pointed out re Med Gull
>> concerning the mid wing panel. There is too little contrast between the
>> greater secondary coverts and the remainder of the wing, particularly the
>> secondary bar. The effect is medium gray-brown greater coverts against a
>> very dark brown or black secondary bar in this bird, versus pale gray
>> greater coverts against a black(?) bar in Med Gull..
>
> See comments above and note that in the lower right of the composit it
> would seem that the greater coverts are a lot paler than the median
> and lesser coverts..
>
>> Breast pattern   -   To me this is the clinching point. Of the three 
>> species
>> early in the second calendar year, only Laughing will typically possess 
>> the
>> smooth gray breastband and flank wash shown by this bird or at least will
>> show it in many individuals.
>
> I agree with Kevin that it looks like a Laughing Gulls breast, i've
> never seen anything like this on a Med Gull. At the same time i'd like
> to stress that Nicolas and Ludovic are sure that this bird was clearly
> a Med Gull on structure. To put that into perspective, their migration
> watch point lies close to the largest concentration of Med Gull on the
> northern coast of France (100's of birds) and the bird was seen
> together with or close to several other Med Gulls of various ages.
>
> cheers, pim wolf
>
>
> -- 
> Pim Wolf Vlissingen The Netherlands +31 6227 834 28
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: 
> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 

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[ << | >> | ^^ ]

Subject: Re: Med or Franklin's Gull
From: Pim Wolf <pim.wolf(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 21 Mar 2008 1:09pm

hi all,

On 3/21/08, James Gilroy <james.gilroy1(AT)googlemail.com> wrote:

> Regarding Pim's other comments, I still feel that the diffuse dark
> underwings and dark upper greater coverts should be added to the list
> of features that are highly anomalous for Med Gull. We could argue
> about what is and isn't a photo effect, but in both these cases the
> lack of contrast is striking in all images, regardless of pose.

true, though i think that the greater coverts are not too dark, the
pattern on the underside of the primaries deff. is odd.

> A final point regarding the hood - it's not the darkness so much that
> bothers me, but the shape of the hood. To my eyes, it clearly tapers
> to a point down the nape. On a Med Gull, even one gaining a full dark
> hood, the rear border should go straight over the top of the nape, not
> extend down to a point in the centre. The shape of the hood cannot
> really be explained by a photo effect or abnormally dark pigmentation.

If i understand you correctly James, you're not writing about how far
down the nape the hood goes but the angle of the black downwards to a
point below the ear-coverts? On a flight view of a full hooded bird it
mostly drops down at a more or less straight angle but that angle is
very variable as i'm sure you realize.

> The fact that it was the same size and shape as adjacent Med Gulls,
> together with the underpart pattern, is certainly enough to eliminate
>