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ID-FRONTIERS for December 13-19, 2009
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Re: L. canus candidate | Julian Hough | Sun, 13 Dec 2009 | 11:12am |
| Hi Julian: L. canus candidate | Bill Rudden | Sun, 13 Dec 2009 | 3:41pm |
| Re: Hi Julian: L. canus candidate | Julian Hough | Sun, 13 Dec 2009 | 7:16pm |
| Re: L. canus candidate | Jim Barton | Sun, 13 Dec 2009 | 8:15pm |
| Re: Hi Julian: L. canus candidate | greatgrayowl(AT)AOL.COM | Sun, 13 Dec 2009 | 9:31pm |
| Re: Hi Julian: L. canus candidate | Dick Newell | Mon, 14 Dec 2009 | 12:47am |
| Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water
Pipit?) | French, Paul | Mon, 14 Dec 2009 | 3:33am |
| Re: L. canus candidate | Peter Adriaens | Mon, 14 Dec 2009 | 4:20am |
| Re: Hi Julian: L. canus candidate | Bill Rudden | Mon, 14 Dec 2009 | 7:17am |
| European(?) Herring Gull | Dave DeReamus | Mon, 14 Dec 2009 | 12:33pm |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | Julian Hough | Mon, 14 Dec 2009 | 12:59pm |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | John Puschock | Mon, 14 Dec 2009 | 3:13pm |
| Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water
Pipit?) | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_ | Mon, 14 Dec 2009 | 3:28pm |
| 'tis the season (Kumlien's/Thayer's) | Michael L. P. Retter | Mon, 14 Dec 2009 | 9:04pm |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | Bill Rudden | Mon, 14 Dec 2009 | 11:00pm |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | Peter Adriaens | Tue, 15 Dec 2009 | 4:07am |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | Lee G R Evans | Tue, 15 Dec 2009 | 6:13am |
| Re: 'tis the season (Kumlien's/Thayer's) | Lethaby, Nick | Tue, 15 Dec 2009 | 10:30am |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | Bruce Mactavish | Tue, 15 Dec 2009 | 8:30pm |
| Fw: Smithsonianus lookalikes | Norman D.van Swelm | Wed, 16 Dec 2009 | 11:13am |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | Mike O'Keeffe | Thu, 17 Dec 2009 | 6:41am |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | =?windows-1252?Q?Jim | Thu, 17 Dec 2009 | 10:32am |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | John Puschock | Thu, 17 Dec 2009 | 2:30pm |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | =?windows-1252?Q?Mar | Thu, 17 Dec 2009 | 2:39pm |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | Dexter Richardson | Fri, 18 Dec 2009 | 9:46am |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | Alvaro Jaramillo | Fri, 18 Dec 2009 | 6:32pm |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | John Puschock | Fri, 18 Dec 2009 | 9:38pm |
| Re: European(?) Herring Gull | Alvaro Jaramillo | Sat, 19 Dec 2009 | 8:25am |
|
To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: L. canus candidate
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 13 Dec 2009 11:12am
Bill,
To throw a question back at you from a different perspective...what
features, compared with Ring-billed, makes this bird a candidate for Mew
Gull?
best,
Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net
www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Rudden" <bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:24 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] L. canus candidate
Mississippi R. Lock&Dam 26. Madison county IL. USA. 12-10-09
Can L. delawarensis be eliminated by these pics?
http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30252.0
Respectfully,
Bill Rudden
St. Louis MO USA
bilrudn(AT)yahoo.com
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Subject: Hi Julian: L. canus candidate
From: Bill Rudden <bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 13 Dec 2009 3:41pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Julian asks:"what features, compared with Ring-billed, makes this bird a ca=
ndidate for Mew Gull?"
=A0=A0The even washed under-side (no chevrons) and all dark tail; lack of m=
arks on inner web of inner primaries.=A0=A0br
--- On Sun, 12/13/09, Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET> wrote:
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] L. canus candidate
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 12:12 PM
Bill,
To throw a question back at you from a different perspective...what feature=
s, compared with Ring-billed, makes this bird a candidate for Mew Gull?
best,
Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net
www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Rudden" <bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:24 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] L. canus candidate
Mississippi R. Lock&Dam 26. Madison county IL. USA. 12-10-09
Can L. delawarensis be eliminated by these pics?
http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=3D30252.0
Respectfully,
Bill Rudden
St. Louis MO USA
bilrudn(AT)yahoo.com
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbir=
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----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Hi Julian: L. canus candidate
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 13 Dec 2009 7:16pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Bill,
The bird I saw was a first-winter/cycle bird that had a rather blackish =
tailband (not an all-dark tail) and had a rather contrasting upperwing =
pattern, with pale, greyish greater coverts and looked like a =
RIng-billed Gull.
Maybe in my haste I looked at the wrong photos?? I'll check again and =
make sure I looked at the bird in question.
Best,
Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net
www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill Rudden=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 5:41 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Hi Julian: L. canus candidate
Julian asks:
"what features, compared with Ring-billed, makes this bird a =
candidate for Mew Gull?"
The even washed under-side (no chevrons) and all dark tail; =
lack of marks on inner web of inner primaries.
br
--- On Sun, 12/13/09, Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET> wrote:
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] L. canus candidate
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 12:12 PM
Bill,
To throw a question back at you from a different =
perspective...what features, compared with Ring-billed, makes this bird =
a candidate for Mew Gull?
best,
Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net
www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Rudden" =
<bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:24 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] L. canus candidate
Mississippi R. Lock&Dam 26. Madison county IL. USA. 12-10-09
Can L. delawarensis be eliminated by these pics?
http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=3D30252.0
Respectfully,
Bill Rudden
St. Louis MO USA
bilrudn(AT)yahoo.com
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: =
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbirdwg01
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html=20
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=20
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Subject: Re: L. canus candidate
From: Jim Barton <redwingatfp1986(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 13 Dec 2009 8:15pm
Hello. The very ragged inner edges to the black tail band would make it
difficult for me to call this bird Common Gull L. canus . On
Mew/Short-billed Gull L. brachy... at this apparent age I'd expect to see
entirely dark tail feathers. (West Coast observers may wish to disagree.)
Instead, I see pale tale bases to the upper tail feathers. In the first
photo, the shape of the bill looks passable for Common/Mew, but in the
second photograph, it doesn't. I'd find it hard to make any judgments on
the color and color tone of the bird from photographs we have. In short, I
definitely think one cannot eliminate RBGU delawarensis.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Rudden" <bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:24 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] L. canus candidate
Mississippi R. Lock&Dam 26. Madison county IL. USA. 12-10-09
Can L. delawarensis be eliminated by these pics?
http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30252.0
Respectfully,
Bill Rudden
St. Louis MO USA
bilrudn(AT)yahoo.com
Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
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Subject: Re: Hi Julian: L. canus candidate
From: greatgrayowl(AT)AOL.COM
Date: 13 Dec 2009 9:31pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
All:
?
I still agree with Julian's original sentiment -- I don't see why this bir=
d isn't a Ring-billed Gull.? I don't see an all-dark tail, but a white tai=
l with an extensive black tail band.? Yes, it's more extensive than is typ=
ical for Ringer, but I've seen blacker-tailed Ringers than this (such as=
the one at=20
http://cfo-link.org/MrBill/answer.php?quiz_number=3D257).? Additionally,=
the mantle color looks no darker than that of the the adult Ringer with=
it.
?
Additionally, various comments on the IL site are in error, such as the po=
inted primaries point directly at a 1st-cycle bird, NOT an older one.
?
Tony Leukering
Villas, NJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Rudden <bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:41 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Hi Julian: L. canus candidate
Julian asks:
"what features, compared with Ring-billed, makes this bird a candidate for=
Mew Gull?"
??The even washed under-side (no chevrons) and all dark tail; lack of mark=
s on inner web of inner primaries.??br
--- On Sun, 12/13/09, Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET> wrote:
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] L. canus candidate
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 12:12 PM
Bill,
To throw a question back at you from a different perspective...what featur=
es, compared with Ring-billed, makes this bird a candidate for Mew Gull?
best,
Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net
www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Rudden" <bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: <BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:24 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] L. canus candidate
Mississippi R. Lock&Dam 26. Madison county IL. USA. 12-10-09
Can L. delawarensis be eliminated by these pics?
http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=3D30252.0
Respectfully,
Bill Rudden
St. Louis MO USA
bilrudn(AT)yahoo.com
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbi=
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=3D
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Subject: Re: Hi Julian: L. canus candidate
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2009 12:47am
--0015175cd1626a5710047aab7cad
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
ref http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30252.0
If this bird is not a Ring-billed Gull, then is not Kamchatka a candidate?
The tail is OK for Kamchatka, as is the muddy brown body. However, the
scapular moult is rather advanced for Kamchatka in October, for which reason
I suspect that it is a Ring-billed Gull.
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK
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--0015175cd1626a5710047aab7cad
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ref=A0 <a href=3D"http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=3D30252.0" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=3D30252.0</a><br>If this=
bird is not a Ring-billed Gull, then is not Kamchatka a candidate? The tai=
l is OK for Kamchatka, as is the muddy brown body. However, the scapular mo=
ult is rather advanced for Kamchatka in October, for which reason I suspect=
that it is a Ring-billed Gull.<br>
Dick Newell<br>Cambridge, UK<br><br>
<p>
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<p>
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<p>
--0015175cd1626a5710047aab7cad--
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Subject: Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water
Pipit?)
From: "French, Paul" <Paul.French(AT)RSPB.ORG.UK>
Date: 14 Dec 2009 3:33am
Greg,
I really can't see a japonicus in your bird i'm afraid. If you turned
the underparts of your bird buffy and the mantle was a touch more olive,
it would be a bog standard rubescens wouldn't it? One of the main
features for japonicus is the prominent black streaking underneath,
clearly darker than the upperparts. On your bird, the steaking is the
same colour or perhaps very slightly darker in colour than the
upperparts. Check out the differences in these two birds showing the
variation within japonicus, but still the streaking is blackish.
A lightly streaked individual -
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?p=15&action=searchresult&Bird_I
D=2094&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1
A heavily streaked individual -
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?p=14&action=searchresult&Bird_I
D=2094&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1
Also, as others have pointed out, your bird lacks the distinctly brown
tones above that japonicus should show, and the legs (while paler than
classic rubescens) are no where near the flesh colour normally shown by
japonicus. As for the yellow on the bill, well the bird on the Illonois
thread underneath yours shows more yellow. And thats also a rubescens.
The white tips to the median coverts are potentially interesting, but
again, you only have to look at that other bird in the Illonois thread
to see that its not impossible. A quick google search reveals that white
tips to the median coverts are not that unusual.
http://www.photomigrations.com/articles/0311600.htm
http://www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com/d/5331-3/american_pipit_F5R7865
And here is a bird that actually looks similar to yours, but is still
clearly a rubescens
http://sdakotabirds.com/species_photos/photos/american_pipit_1.jpg
In short, i can't see any features on your bird that would point towards
a vagrant japonicus rather than a slightly odd rubescens.
Paul French
UK
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Greg Neise
Sent: 13 December 2009 00:09
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)
A final note about the photographs.
One of the inherent problems with the little ultrazoom cameras, like the
FZ18 that I use, is that they are consumer products, and the image
sensor just can't handle bright, high-contrast subjects as well as a
DSLR. I had adjusted the exposure to what I felt was as close as I could
get, but one thing has been nagging at me, and that is the bird's malar
area.
When I first saw this bird, my immediate reaction was "yellow-rumped
warbler". The reason for that was the bird's overall gray tones, heavy
streaking on the chest, and a heavy dark mark on the upper
breast/malar/side of neck area and clean white throat. It really stood
out, giving the impression of the glommed up streaking on the upper
breast of a breeding Yellow-rumped Warbler. Of course, in the very next
second, I realized it was a pipit...but the photos as I have them on the
forum-even though I feel that they give the best overall impression of
the bird-failed to exhibit that mark which first got my attention.
The other thing about the photos I've noticed is that the bird's plumage
seems reflective. The sun was directly behind me (at 1PM, when I found
the bird), and low in the sky (being mid-December). If you look at the
images I've attached to this email, you'll notice that in image _5646
the median coverts seem gray with rather broad pale gray fringes. But if
you look at image _5643, where the bird has shifted slightly and is now
at an angle to the sun, the median coverts appear as I saw them in the
field: black centered with broad white fringes.
The same goes for the upper breast/malar markings. In the two images
that best show this, the bird is flat to the sun and the breast is blown
out, and the dark markings washed out (_5646a). In image _5646, I've
adjusted the exposure so that this appears more like it did in the
field, but because of the limited amount of image data caused by the
high contrast subject, the image "blocks up" a little, and renders the
legs darker than they appeared in the field.
What I saw, what I think the photographs depict, and why I think that
this bird is japonicus, are:
Lateral throat stripe thick and blocky, appearing spotted and extending
to the rear of the auricular.
Crisp blackish streaking on crown and mantle.
White eye-ring
Clean white underparts, with dark gray to blackish streaking, that
almost looked spotted.
Black-centered median coverts with bold white fringes.
Greater coverts with well defined light gray-to-white fringes, forming
distinct white wing bars.
Whitish "moustache-stripe" wrapping around behind the auricular.
Necklace of blocky, almost spotted, streaks defining a clean white
throat.
Pale lores.
Lower mandible yellow nearly to the tip.
Leg color dark yellow/pale brown.
The images referenced above are at:
http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.msg37557#msg37557
-greg neise
Berwyn, IL
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Subject: Re: L. canus candidate
From: Peter Adriaens <p_adriaens(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2009 4:20am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
One important difference is the pattern of the underwing. The underwing is
fairly white and unmarked, contrasting against dark secondaries, which is
typical of Ring-billed gull. In canus and, especially, kamtschatsensis, the
underwing is heavily marked with brown, and the secondaries do not contrast as
much.
Peter
Op 14-dec-2009 om 08:47 heeft Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)GOOGLEMAIL.COM> het
volgende geschreven:\
ref http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30252.0
If this bird is not a Ring-billed Gull, then is not Kamchatka a candidate? The
tail is OK for Kamchatka, as is the muddy brown body. However, the scapular
moult is rather advanced for Kamchatka in October, for which reason I suspect
that it is a Ring-billed Gull.
Dick Newell
Cambridge, UK
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Subject: Re: Hi Julian: L. canus candidate
From: Bill Rudden <bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2009 7:17am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Well done gentlemen, thanks much.
I'm assuming Dick meant Dec. molt. (below)To recap: - no Mew complex gull w=
ould have this combination of feather molts =A0
Bill
--- On Mon, 12/14/09, Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)GOOGLEMAIL.COM> wrote:
From: Dick Newell <dick.newell(AT)GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Hi Julian: L. canus candidate
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 1:47 AM
ref=A0 http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=3D30252.0
If this bird is not a Ring-billed Gull, then is not Kamchatka a candidate? =
The tail is OK for Kamchatka, as is the muddy brown body. However, the scap=
ular moult is rather advanced for Kamchatka in October, for which reason I =
suspect that it is a Ring-billed Gull.
=0A=0A=0ADick Newell
Cambridge, UK
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=3Dbirdwg01=0A=0AArchives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.ht=
ml=0A=0A
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Subject: European(?) Herring Gull
From: Dave DeReamus <becard(AT)RCN.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2009 12:33pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi,
I photographed a gull in Easton, PA on November 20th and would love to =
know any opinions the gull experts might have on this one. First, I =
must apologize for the poor quality of the photos, which were taken in =
pretty poor conditions, but I believe that there might be enough detail =
in them to promote a possible identification. I have not changed the =
photos in any way other than to crop them down some. They are at: =
http://picasaweb.google.com/becard57/LocalNotables2009#.
When I first arrived and did a quick scan with binoculars, my first =
impression when I came across this bird was Iceland Gull since it =
appeared so pale, especially on the mantle. Getting my scope on it, it =
was obvious that it wasn't an Iceland but looked more like a Herring =
Gull (dark wingtips, stouter bill, larger size, etc.). The bill =
appeared to be dark all the way to the base like most 1st-winter =
Herrings. What was most striking as it sat there was the very pale and =
barred mantle, which I've never seen on any 1st-winter Herring Gulls =
before (Photos 1 through 4; for size comparison, an adult Ring-billed =
Gull is behind the bird). The head was very pale with a dark smudge =
around the eye. The breast was also very pale compared to the overall =
tan or brown appearance of almost all of the young Herrings I see. The =
greater coverts appeared paler than the rest of the wing with dark =
center spots (best visible on Photo 2).
Eventually, the bird took off and landed again for a brief time before =
it left for the day. During that short circle, I managed to get some =
flight photos of it. That was when I noticed that the wings, especially =
the inner primaries, were also very pale (Photos 5, 6, and 9). There =
was a noticeable dark secondary bar (Photo 9). The rump of the bird was =
also very light with barring similar to the mantle but finer than that =
(Photos 11 and 12). Those bars appeared to extend out onto the tail, =
which had a dark terminal band. As poor luck would have it, a small =
tree trunk covered the only photo I have of the spread tail. =
Unfortunately, I was trying to get photos of it in flight and didn't get =
to see as much detail as I would have had I been watching it with my =
binoculars or my scope.
The odds are that this is some odd-plumaged American Herring Gull, but =
upon looking at the "Gulls of the Americas" book, I noticed that were =
several similarities between this bird and a 1st-winter European =
Herring. The bird most closely resembled the bird in Photo 25B.6 on =
page 171 except that the breast didn't seem to be streaked. In flight, =
it seemed to most closely match the bird in Photo 25B.16 on Page 173.
Photos that I have found on the web that most closely match this bird =
are at:
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/1w_20.php
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/1w_18.php
Again, I realize that the photos are not that great, but would really, =
really appreciate any opinions since I am nowhere near a larophile.
Thanks and Good birding,
Dave DeReamus
Easton, PA
becard -at- rcn.com
Eastern PA Birding: http://users.rcn.com/becard/home.html
My PicasaWeb Albums: http://picasaweb.google.com/becard57
My Blog Site: http://becard.blogspot.com/
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: Julian Hough <jrhough1(AT)SNET.NET>
Date: 14 Dec 2009 12:59pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Dave,
Smithsonianus are an absolute nightmare due to their variability in =
plumage, sometimes approaching European Herring Gull in appearance. =
"Nailing" one outside of Newfoundland (I tip my hat here to Mr. Bruce =
MacTavish) is thus incredibly difficult. At this time of year, European =
Herring Gulls look paler or more "marbled" than smithsonianus.These =
paler first-cycle (first-winter) feathers have neat dark subterminal =
marks which gives European Herring Gulls a rather "barred" look, similar =
to the bird in your photos. However, on the only shot I can see of the =
tail, the rectrices look to be mostly dark with the dark coloring =
extending up most of the feather. Most importantly, the outer two =
feathers look dark, with almost a wholly dark outer web. On first-cycle =
European Herring Gull, these are typically white, or predominantly white =
with some dark barring along the outer web..
Based on that feature, I'm confident it's a smithsonianus, albeit not a =
typical one.
Best,
Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1(AT)snet.net
www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dave DeReamus=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:32 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
Hi,
I photographed a gull in Easton, PA on November 20th and would love to =
know any opinions the gull experts might have on this one. First, I =
must apologize for the poor quality of the photos, which were taken in =
pretty poor conditions, but I believe that there might be enough detail =
in them to promote a possible identification. I have not changed the =
photos in any way other than to crop them down some. They are at: =
http://picasaweb.google.com/becard57/LocalNotables2009#.
When I first arrived and did a quick scan with binoculars, my first =
impression when I came across this bird was Iceland Gull since it =
appeared so pale, especially on the mantle. Getting my scope on it, it =
was obvious that it wasn't an Iceland but looked more like a Herring =
Gull (dark wingtips, stouter bill, larger size, etc.). The bill =
appeared to be dark all the way to the base like most 1st-winter =
Herrings. What was most striking as it sat there was the very pale and =
barred mantle, which I've never seen on any 1st-winter Herring Gulls =
before (Photos 1 through 4; for size comparison, an adult Ring-billed =
Gull is behind the bird). The head was very pale with a dark smudge =
around the eye. The breast was also very pale compared to the overall =
tan or brown appearance of almost all of the young Herrings I see. The =
greater coverts appeared paler than the rest of the wing with dark =
center spots (best visible on Photo 2).
Eventually, the bird took off and landed again for a brief time before =
it left for the day. During that short circle, I managed to get some =
flight photos of it. That was when I noticed that the wings, especially =
the inner primaries, were also very pale (Photos 5, 6, and 9). There =
was a noticeable dark secondary bar (Photo 9). The rump of the bird was =
also very light with barring similar to the mantle but finer than that =
(Photos 11 and 12). Those bars appeared to extend out onto the tail, =
which had a dark terminal band. As poor luck would have it, a small =
tree trunk covered the only photo I have of the spread tail. =
Unfortunately, I was trying to get photos of it in flight and didn't get =
to see as much detail as I would have had I been watching it with my =
binoculars or my scope.
The odds are that this is some odd-plumaged American Herring Gull, but =
upon looking at the "Gulls of the Americas" book, I noticed that were =
several similarities between this bird and a 1st-winter European =
Herring. The bird most closely resembled the bird in Photo 25B.6 on =
page 171 except that the breast didn't seem to be streaked. In flight, =
it seemed to most closely match the bird in Photo 25B.16 on Page 173.
Photos that I have found on the web that most closely match this bird =
are at:
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/1w_20.php
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/1w_18.php
Again, I realize that the photos are not that great, but would really, =
really appreciate any opinions since I am nowhere near a larophile.
Thanks and Good birding,
Dave DeReamus
Easton, PA
becard -at- rcn.com
Eastern PA Birding: http://users.rcn.com/becard/home.html
My PicasaWeb Albums: http://picasaweb.google.com/becard57
My Blog Site: http://becard.blogspot.com/
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: =
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbirdwg01=20
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html=20
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: John Puschock <g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2009 3:13pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Howdy=2C
Since we (or at least some of us) are back on the subject of European
Herring Gulls=2C I'd like to recirculate a few birds I posted here last
winter. They are from Daytona Beach Shores=2C Florida and the nearby landf=
ill. All except Andy Wraithmell's were photographed in mid-February 2009. =
Photographs can be found at http://www.zbirdtours.com/dbs_herg.htm. Click=
on each one for more photos. =20
When I posted them last time=2C I was expecting to get responses saying tha=
t they weren't right for European=2C particularly since two of them show a =
bicolored bill and none=2C at least in my opinion=2C have a "classic" Euro =
tail band (but I've never seen an undisputed European Herring=2C so my opin=
ions shouldn't count for much). To my surprise though=2C I received only o=
ne response=2C and while that respondent didn't claim that these gulls are =
European Herrings=2C he did say they wouldn't stand out in a group of Europ=
eans either.
All of the gulls I photographed (#1-4) were pretty easy to pick out
even after they changed positions. They lacked the overall brown
appearance of the other Herring Gulls. There are a few photos that
illustrate this=2C particularly for Gull #4=2C though this is one with a bi=
colored bill.
So was the lack of response the first time because these birds are too conf=
using to have a species label affixed to them or are they so obviously not =
European Herring Gulls that most didn't bother to respond?=20
John Puschock
Seattle=2C WA
g_g_allin(AT)hotmail.com
=20
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/=
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Subject: Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water
Pipit?)
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_Neise?= <gregneise(AT)ILBIRDS.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2009 3:28pm
Hi Paul,
One of the things I've learned in the last few days (and one of the reasons
I love discussions like this) is that there seems to 100% overlap...a steady
cline in all features...from japonicus to rubrescens.
One thing that I have noticed, and one of the reasons I chose to document
this bird as japonicus (that isn't really mentioned anywhere) is the face
pattern as a whole. As I looked at many many photos, I noticed that
japonicus tends to show a more distinct face pattern created by the
combination of a heavier malar "blotch", whiter mustachial (sub-mustachial?)
stripe that tends to be longer and partially encircles the auricular,
whitish supercilium all of which tend to contrast more with the auricular.
Rubescens (from what I have noticed) tends to have much more buffy tones,
without any real sharp contrast, a shorter mustachial stripe and more
concolorus supercilium. The overall effect when combined with the usually
more contrasting (again with white versus buffy) wingbars of japonicus, and
usually heavier streaking on the back gives a different impression.
One of the first people to send me an email from Europe remarked at how on
first glance, the Chicago bird's face pattern was reminiscent of a Redwing
(the European thrush)...indeed, my first impression was reminiscent of
Yellow-rumped Warbler.
I've assembled [at IBF] pictures that I'm certain are correctly identified
from a number of birding web sites and articles. I've interspersed a few
shots of the Chicago bird as well for comparison.
But, at the end of the day, my motive for documenting this bird is because
no matter what it may be, it is certainly unusual, and I want to make sure
that it finds it's way into the "knowledge base". I don't know about others,
but exercises such as this tend to burn information into the brain that
casual study just can't compete with.
Pictures referenced above:
http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.msg37666#msg37666
Cheers,
-greg
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Subject: 'tis the season (Kumlien's/Thayer's)
From: "Michael L. P. Retter" <mlretter(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2009 9:04pm
I'd be happy to receive comments on the adult gull (photographed by my partner
on the IL-WI line on Lake Michigan) which appears in the following photoset. In
the field, the wing markings appeared black, like the adjacent adult Thayer's
Gull and Herring Gulls.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mlretter/sets/72157622878877801/
While the wing marking were nearly if not black, their extent was noticeably
less than on some "good" Kumlien's Gulls, like this one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mlretter/3305880748/in/set-72157614289303481/
It seems to me that the first bird would be called a Thayer's Gull in California
but a Kumlien's Gull in Newfoundland. Living in between, I don't have that
luxury.
Thanks,
Michael L. P. Retter
---------------------------------
W. Lafayette, Tippecanoe Co., IN
mlretter AT yahoo.com
http://xenospiza.com/
Tour Leader, Tropical Birding
http://www.tropicalbirding.com/
-----------------------------------
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: Bill Rudden <bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 14 Dec 2009 11:00pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi John:
Your post might have been a bit a visual overload, especially in February.
Your, and the received assessments=A0kind of sums it/them up. =A0There inse=
parable from Euro Herrings and deflated by sub-species status.
=A0Your gulls sure show some of the marks to look for: (some better than ot=
hers)-the black-white overall look with clean underside-the double row of m=
arks on the greater covets =A0=A0-sub-terminal floating bars in the white t=
ipped tertials-barred tail=A0=A0Nice finds and pics. =A0Thanks for posting.=
=A0Respectfully, br=A0
--- On Mon, 12/14/09, John Puschock <g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
From: John Puschock <g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 4:13 PM
=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A
Howdy,
=0A
=0ASince we (or at least some of us) are back on the subject of European=0A=
Herring Gulls, I'd like to recirculate a few birds I posted here last=0Awin=
ter.=A0 They are from Daytona Beach Shores, Florida and the nearby landfill=
.=A0 All except Andy Wraithmell's were photographed in mid-February 2009.=
=A0 Photographs can be found at http://www.zbirdtours.com/dbs_herg.htm.=A0 =
Click on each one for more photos.=A0=20
When I posted them last time, I was expecting to get responses saying that =
they weren't right for European, particularly since two of them show a bico=
lored bill and none, at least in my opinion, have a "classic" Euro tail ban=
d (but I've never seen an undisputed European Herring, so my opinions shoul=
dn't count for much).=A0 To my surprise though, I received only one respons=
e, and while that respondent didn't claim that these gulls are European Her=
rings, he did say they wouldn't stand out in a group of Europeans either.
=0AAll of the gulls I photographed (#1-4) were pretty easy to pick out=0Aev=
en after they changed positions.=A0 They lacked the overall brown=0Aappeara=
nce of the other Herring Gulls.=A0 There are a few photos that=0Aillustrate=
this, particularly for Gull #4, though this is one with a bicolored bill.
So was the lack of response the first time because these birds are too conf=
using to have a species label affixed to them or are they so obviously not =
European Herring Gulls that most didn't bother to respond?=20
John Puschock
Seattle, WA
g_g_allin(AT)hotmail.com
=09=09 =09 =09=09 =20
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now. =0A=0AJoin or Le=
ave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbirdwg01=0A=
=0AArchives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html=0A=0A
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: Peter Adriaens <p_adriaens(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 15 Dec 2009 4:07am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi John, Bill
birds like these are certainly not straightforward in any way (which is probably
another reason why few answers were received), but I would not call them
'obvious European Herring Gulls'.
For what it is worth, here is my (European) perspective on them:
Gulls 1 and 3-6: The tail pattern strikes me as unusual. I am not used to seeing
such dense dark barring (vermiculations) on the outer tail-feathers. In
addition, most of the birds still appear to show hints of rather smooth
underparts/hindneck (not coarsely streaked), barred vent and quite densely
barred upper tail-coverts, all more suggestive of American HG.
Gull 2 (http://www.zbirdtours.com/dbs_gull02.htm): Only one photograph, which is
inconclusive. Strongly bicoloured bill in February is seen in only a minority
of 1st-cycle European HG.
Gull 7 (http://www.zbirdtours.com/dbs_gull7.htm): Two small photographs, which
do not show a lot of detail. Still, rump and upper tail-coverts strike me as a
bit densely marked and quite dull-coloured, as do the tail corners. Underparts
(including lower breast) do not look coarsely streaked.
Kind regards,
Peter
________________________________
From: Bill Rudden <bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 7:00:18 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
Hi John:
Your post might have been a bit a visual overload, especially in February.
Your, and the received assessments kind of sums it/them up. There inseparable
from Euro Herrings and deflated by sub-species status.
Your gulls sure show some of the marks to look for: (some better than others)
-the black-white overall look with clean underside
-the double row of marks on the greater covets
-sub-terminal floating bars in the white tipped tertials
-barred tail
Nice finds and pics. Thanks for posting.
Respectfully, br
--- On Mon, 12/14/09, John Puschock <g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>From: John Puschock <g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
>To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 4:13 PM
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>Howdy,
>
>>Since we (or at least some of us) are back on the subject of European
>Herring Gulls, I'd like to recirculate a few birds I posted here last
>winter. They are from Daytona Beach Shores, Florida and the nearby landfill.
All except Andy Wraithmell's were photographed in mid-February 2009.
Photographs can be found at http://www.zbirdtours.com/dbs_herg.htm. Click on
each one for more photos.
>
>When I posted them last time, I was expecting to get responses saying that they
weren't right for European, particularly since two of them show a bicolored
bill and none, at least in my opinion, have a "classic" Euro tail band (but I've
never seen an undisputed European Herring, so my opinions shouldn't count for
much). To my surprise though, I received only one response, and while that
respondent didn't claim that these gulls are European Herrings, he did say they
wouldn't stand out in a group of Europeans either.
>
>>All of the gulls I photographed (#1-4) were pretty easy to pick out
>even after they changed positions. They lacked the overall brown
>appearance of the other Herring Gulls. There are a few photos that
>illustrate this, particularly for Gull #4, though this is one with a bicolored
bill.
>
>So was the lack of response the first time because these birds are too
confusing to have a species label affixed to them or are they so obviously not
European Herring Gulls that most didn't bother to respond?
>
>John Puschock
>Seattle, WA
>g_g_allin(AT)hotmail.com
>
>________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
>>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400(AT)AOL.COM>
Date: 15 Dec 2009 6:13am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
I would totally agree with all of Peter Adriaens comments. Browsing ALL of
the recent photographs on this thread (putative European Herring Gulls),
the images portray individuals that fall well within the variation one could
expect from 'northern' Smithsonian Gull (smithsonianus), despite the fact
that they are unusually pale. Overall, the bill shape and the clean
headed-ness appearance, and the almost two-tone appearance with the underparts
on
some of the examples, leads me to believe that they are just variants.
We have exactly the opposite problem in Britain, whereby the variation of
both juvenile 'argenteus' and 'argentatus' Herring Gulls 'throws up' on a
frequent basis individuals that exhibit a number of features (all dark
tails, darker underparts, distinct covert barring) of North American Herring
Gull; it is a very difficult job assessing the genuine article from the high
frequency of 'lookalikes' and it does suggest that there may be birds
breeding in the peripheral regions which share ancestral history.
Best wishes
Lee Evans
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Subject: Re: 'tis the season (Kumlien's/Thayer's)
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby(AT)TI.COM>
Date: 15 Dec 2009 10:30am
The adult bird would certainly go down as a Thayer's in California based on how
dark the wing-tips look on the swimming bird.
I am not 100% sold on the 1W Thayer's to be honest. It looks to have a fair bit
of Herring Gull in it to me. Do you have better shots of it sitting?
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael L. P. Retter
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 8:05 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] 'tis the season (Kumlien's/Thayer's)
I'd be happy to receive comments on the adult gull (photographed by my partner
on the IL-WI line on Lake Michigan) which appears in the following photoset. In
the field, the wing markings appeared black, like the adjacent adult Thayer's
Gull and Herring Gulls.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mlretter/sets/72157622878877801/
While the wing marking were nearly if not black, their extent was noticeably
less than on some "good" Kumlien's Gulls, like this one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mlretter/3305880748/in/set-72157614289303481/
It seems to me that the first bird would be called a Thayer's Gull in California
but a Kumlien's Gull in Newfoundland. Living in between, I don't have that
luxury.
Thanks,
Michael L. P. Retter
---------------------------------
W. Lafayette, Tippecanoe Co., IN
mlretter AT yahoo.com
http://xenospiza.com/
Tour Leader, Tropical Birding
http://www.tropicalbirding.com/
-----------------------------------
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1(AT)NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: 15 Dec 2009 8:30pm
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
I think John Puschock's Florida 1st winter Herring Gulls emphasize how
little we know about the variations, and what could be unrecognized
subspecies, of Herring Gull in North America. Field guides and overall
impressions generated about 1st winter smithsonianus is a chocolate
brown washed body, mostly dark tail etc etc. This is the way it is for
most 1st winter Herring Gull in the northeast where the species is
abundant. My impression of interior North America Herring Gulls is a
different bird than that. My own experience with interior 1st winter
Herring Gull is limited to a couple days one Nov at Niagara Falls, a few
days in an October at Point Pelee, Ontario and a few days in late Sept
2009 at Red Deer, Alberta dump and various published photos here and
there. In a nut shell many of the birds didn't look as dark as the
typical fresh 1st winter in Newfoundland would look at the same time of
year. A significant proportion were more barred on upper wing coverts,
tertials, scapulars and under tail coverts, and with more streaked,
paler heads, and more barring and marbling at base of tail feathers.
How would such birds look after living on the beach under the Florida
sun for a couple months? Perhaps the sun bleaching out of pale
background brown washes would create an even greater contrast with the
darker barring? Speculation is my middle name.
The fairly extensive tail bands of the Florida birds probably tell the
continent they originated from. On Oct 24, 2008 I found myself standing
with a bag bread on a wharf in the fishing port of Galway, Ireland
surrounded by 50 1st winter argenteus Herring Gulls. Not one of them
resembled the Florida birds. They all had narrow tail bands contrasting
with predominately white based tail feathers and rump, very pale heads,
a brown and white checkered contrast of barring on the wing coverts and
other upper parts. They looked more like miniature Great Black-backed
Gulls than the dark chocolate young Herring Gulls of northeast North
America. It reinforced the idea that the majority of European Herring
Gulls are different from North American Herring Gulls (northeast and
interior). But there are gray areas where the two 'species' overlap in
features as we know them now.
BTW. European Herring Gulls should be very rare in North America. They
are not so very common in Iceland where Lesser Black-backed Gull is far
more numerous. European Herring Gull has a relatively small footprint on
planet earth.
Bruce Mactavish
Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Puschock
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 6:43 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
Howdy,
Since we (or at least some of us) are back on the subject of European
Herring Gulls, I'd like to recirculate a few birds I posted here last
winter. They are from Daytona Beach Shores, Florida and the nearby
landfill. All except Andy Wraithmell's were photographed in
mid-February 2009. Photographs can be found at
http://www.zbirdtours.com/dbs_herg.htm. Click on each one for more
photos.
When I posted them last time, I was expecting to get responses saying
that they weren't right for European, particularly since two of them
show a bicolored bill and none, at least in my opinion, have a "classic"
Euro tail band (but I've never seen an undisputed European Herring, so
my opinions shouldn't count for much). To my surprise though, I
received only one response, and while that respondent didn't claim that
these gulls are European Herrings, he did say they wouldn't stand out in
a group of Europeans either.
All of the gulls I photographed (#1-4) were pretty easy to pick out even
after they changed positions. They lacked the overall brown appearance
of the other Herring Gulls. There are a few photos that illustrate
this, particularly for Gull #4, though this is one with a bicolored
bill.
So was the lack of response the first time because these birds are too
confusing to have a species label affixed to them or are they so
obviously not European Herring Gulls that most didn't bother to respond?
John Puschock
Seattle, WA
g_g_allin(AT)hotmail.com
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Subject: Fw: Smithsonianus lookalikes
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 16 Dec 2009 11:13am
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----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
The Dutch Herring Gull L.a.argenteus see:
http://www.radioactiverobins.com/gulls/dutchherringgulls/dutchherringgull=
.htm
is not the first one expects to see in America or Canada as it's =
movements outside the breeding season rarely if ever exceeds 600 km's =
distance from the breeding colony.
The one to expect in Canada cq. America may be the Russian Herring Gull =
L.a.argentatus=20
as it is known to migrate rather long distances see:
http://www.radioactiverobins.com/gulls/russianherringgull/russianherringg=
ull.htm
May I invite you to have a look at :
http://ostfoldmaker.blogspot.com/2009/12/smithsonianus-lookalikes.html
Note that the last two birds were born in southern Norway where they =
were colour-ringed as chicks in our Norwegian Herring and Lesser =
Black-back Gull project!
Cheers, Norman
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: "Stein Engebretsen" <cathrine.engebretsen(AT)fredfiber.net>
> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 1:42 PM
> Subject: Smithsonianus lookalikes
>> Hello!
>>=20
>> Inge and I would appreciate comments on this, our latest blog-entry:
>>=20
>> =
http://ostfoldmaker.blogspot.com/2009/12/smithsonianus-lookalikes.html
>>=20
>> Best wishes
>>=20
>> Stein Engebretsen
Bruce Mactavish wrote:
> I think John Puschock's Florida 1st winter Herring Gulls emphasize how =
little we know about the variations, and what could be unrecognized =
subspecies, of Herring Gull in North America. Field guides and overall =
impressions generated about 1st winter smithsonianus is a chocolate =
brown washed body, mostly dark tail etc etc. This is the way it is for =
most 1st winter Herring Gull in the northeast where the species is =
abundant. My impression of interior North America Herring Gulls is a =
different bird than that. My own experience with interior 1st winter =
Herring Gull is limited to a couple days one Nov at Niagara Falls, a few =
days in an October at Point Pelee, Ontario and a few days in late Sept =
2009 at Red Deer, Alberta dump and various published photos here and =
there. In a nut shell many of the birds didn't look as dark as the =
typical fresh 1st winter in Newfoundland would look at the same time of =
year. A significant proportion were more barred on upper wing coverts, =
tertials, scapulars and under tail coverts, and with more streaked, =
paler heads, and more barring and marbling at base of tail feathers. =
How would such birds look after living on the beach under the Florida =
sun for a couple months? Perhaps the sun bleaching out of pale =
background brown washes would create an even greater contrast with the =
darker barring? Speculation is my middle name.
The fairly extensive tail bands of the Florida birds probably tell the =
continent they originated from. On Oct 24, 2008 I found myself standing =
with a bag bread on a wharf in the fishing port of Galway, Ireland =
surrounded by 50 1st winter argenteus Herring Gulls. Not one of them =
resembled the Florida birds. They all had narrow tail bands contrasting =
with predominately white based tail feathers and rump, very pale heads, =
a brown and white checkered contrast of barring on the wing coverts and =
other upper parts. They looked more like miniature Great Black-backed =
Gulls than the dark chocolate young Herring Gulls of northeast North =
America. It reinforced the idea that the majority of European Herring =
Gulls are different from North American Herring Gulls (northeast and =
interior). But there are gray areas where the two 'species' overlap in =
features as we know them now.=20
BTW. European Herring Gulls should be very rare in North America. They =
are not so very common in Iceland where Lesser Black-backed Gull is far =
more numerous. European Herring Gull has a relatively small footprint on =
planet earth.=20
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml(AT)EIRCOM.NET>
Date: 17 Dec 2009 6:41am
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----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
All,
For anyone interested the excellent paper by Pat Lonergan and Killian =
Mullarney "Identification of American Herring Gull in a western European =
context" (Dutch Birding, 2004) is available with thanks to the authors =
and Dutch Birding at the Irish Rare Birds Committee website - link =
below. Remarkably the classic American Herring Gull first photographed =
at Nimmo's Pier, Galway as a juvenile in January 2004 has been returning =
every winter since and is back at the same location again this winter.
Regards
Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland
http://www.irbc.ie/notes/pdf/IdentificationOfAmericanHerring(Mullarney&Lo=
nergan).pdf
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jim_Pike?= <jpike44(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 17 Dec 2009 10:32am
Mike,
Thanks much for providing access to that article. I just want to point out
that the link didn't initially work, as the end ('pdf') was cut off.
Pasting the link into a Google search will do the trick. (Since I own
shares of Microsoft, I also suggest trying Bing).
Jim Pike
Huntington Beach, CA
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: John Puschock <g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 17 Dec 2009 2:30pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Howdy=2C
I agree with Bruce and others that the Herring Gulls from Daytona are most =
likely _smithsonianus_. However=2C
I wonder about the significance=2C if any=2C of the fact that in the photos
that show other Herring Gulls with the birds in question=2C the subject
birds appear to show darker primaries and tertials. Granted=2C the
sample size is extremely small=2C but does this argue against their
appearance being due to fading?
I should also mention that gulls suspected of being European Herrings have =
been seen in this area since 2006=2C and I had no role in discovering them=
=2C so don't give me the credit...or blame. Also=2C I haven't seen photos =
of some of the first ones=2C so they might be "better" than the gulls I pre=
sented for consideration.
Finally=2C the North American Gull Conference is happening next month in th=
e
Daytona area so hopefully there will be a few more examples like these
for some of you to study and then clutter ID-Frontiers with your thoughts. =
I'm also hoping someone will find me a "good" European Herring while I'm t=
here.
John Puschock
Seattle=2C WA
g_g_allin(AT)hotmail.com
From: bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
To: g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM=3B BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
Date: Wed=2C 16 Dec 2009 00:00:24 -0330
I think John Puschock=92s Florida 1st winter Herring Gulls emphasize
how little we know about the variations=2C and what could be unrecognized s=
ubspecies=2C
of Herring Gull in North America. <snip> How would such birds
look after living on the beach under the Florida sun for a couple months?=20
Perhaps the sun bleaching out of pale background brown washes would
create an even greater contrast with the darker barring? Speculation is my
middle name.
=20
The fairly extensive tail bands of the Florida birds probably tell the cont=
inent they originated from. On Oct 24=2C 2008 I found myself standing with=
a bag bread on
a wharf in the fishing port of Galway=2C Ireland surrounded by 50 1st winte=
r argenteus Herring Gulls.
Not one of them resembled the Florida birds. They all had narrow tail bands=
contrasting with predominately
white based tail feathers and rump <snip>
=20
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/=
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mars_Muusse?= <marsmuusse(AT)WANADOO.NL>
Date: 17 Dec 2009 2:39pm
A month by month overview of European Herring Gulls (tatus and teus), with
data/tables/graphs on moult, phenotypic characteristics, etc plus several
pictures for each month can be viewed here:
http://www.gull-research.org/hg/HG1CY08.htm
Mars Muusse
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: Dexter Richardson <dex(AT)DEXWINE.COM>
Date: 18 Dec 2009 9:46am
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hello all,
Alex Vinokur of Orlando FL was the first to document European Herring Gulls
in FL at the Volusia County Landfill back in 06. I don=B9t remember what
subspecies the gull was but I believe pictures were sent to a few gull
experts around the world. I=B9ve asked him to provide the details of what he
documented.
Dexter Richardson
Winter Park, FL
On 12/17/09 4:30 PM, "John Puschock" <g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Howdy,
>=20
> I agree with Bruce and others that the Herring Gulls from Daytona are mos=
t
> likely _smithsonianus_. However, I wonder about the significance, if any=
, of
> the fact that in the photos that show other Herring Gulls with the birds =
in
> question, the subject birds appear to show darker primaries and tertials.
> Granted, the sample size is extremely small, but does this argue against =
their
> appearance being due to fading?
>=20
> I should also mention that gulls suspected of being European Herrings hav=
e
> been seen in this area since 2006, and I had no role in discovering them,=
so
> don't give me the credit...or blame. Also, I haven't seen photos of some=
of
> the first ones, so they might be "better" than the gulls I presented for
> consideration.
>=20
> Finally, the North American Gull Conference is happening next month in th=
e
> Daytona area so hopefully there will be a few more examples like these fo=
r
> some of you to study and then clutter ID-Frontiers with your thoughts. I=
'm
> also hoping someone will find me a "good" European Herring while I'm ther=
e.
>=20
> John Puschock
> Seattle, WA
> g_g_allin(AT)hotmail.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
> To: g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM; BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:00:24 -0330
>=20
> I think John Puschock=B9s Florida 1st winter Herring Gulls emphasize how li=
ttle
> we know about the variations, and what could be unrecognized subspecies, =
of
> Herring Gull in North America. <snip> How would such birds look after liv=
ing
> on the beach under the Florida sun for a couple months? Perhaps the sun
> bleaching out of pale background brown washes would create an even greate=
r
> contrast with the darker barring? Speculation is my middle name.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The fairly extensive tail bands of the Florida birds probably tell the
> continent they originated from. On Oct 24, 2008 I found myself standing =
with
> a bag bread on a wharf in the fishing port of Galway, Ireland surrounded =
by 50
> 1st winter argenteus Herring Gulls. Not one of them resembled the Florida
> birds. They all had narrow tail bands contrasting with predominately whit=
e
> based tail feathers and rump <snip>
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
> <http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/>
>=20
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbir=
dwg01
>=20
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>=20
>=20
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 18 Dec 2009 6:32pm
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John et al.
I was there when Alex spotted one of these Euro Herring Gulls at the
Volusia Co landfill. I have photos of the thing but have no time right now
to post them. Everything looks really good for something non-smithsonianus,
except the tail was darker than is typical on Herring Gulls. I see a lot of
the western smithsonianus, and can say that this Old World type Herring Gull
we saw on that day is out of the norm for anything we see as smithsonianus
in North America. But the conundrum is that the bird is not quite right for
a European Herring either perhaps, and once I get photos up I can let
experts on the European taxa decide if that is the case. But it makes me
wonder if we are being misled by geography here, and perhaps a horrible
thought is possible - that these "not quite right" gulls may include young
Vega Gulls. This is horrible because we are only coming to grips with the
identification of this creature here in North America south of Alaska, and
the thought that there could be a low level of them all the way to the east
coast by now is a scary thought for field identification -but a wonderful
challenge as well. Martin Reid was the first to think that this was a
possibility, and I thought he was nuts, maybe he still is nuts (cheers
Martin :-)) but he may have been dead right about the possibility of Vega
well away from the West Coast. Here are some examples:
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/veguinx.html
Also recall the adult Vega Gull (unless someone can identify it as something
else) that was in the Daytona Shores area last winter:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/Florida%20Vega.htm
So take all of this into consideration 1) Vega is far more common in Alaska
than Slaty-backed and Black-tailed; yet south of there it is the taxon that
has been detected the fewest times. That means it is likely going unnoticed
in the south, and perhaps the east. 2) Slaty-backed and Black-tailed have
made it all the way to the east coast on various occasions now, so no reason
the Vega could not. 3) Some of these Texas - Florida birds are in terms of
appearance outside of what is normal for smithsonianus, they suggest
European Herring, but that is also a square peg. But for Vega they may be
well within what is normal!
So I do think we have to open our mind to the Vega possibility, even along
the Atlantic Coast.
Gull fans - here is the info on the upcoming NA Gull Conference. It promises
to be a blast, and at a place that is being discovered as a gull watching
Mecca - Florida's central coast. The opportunities for up close and personal
gull study there are like nothing I have ever seen in North America.
http://www.nbbd.com/fly/gulls/index.html
See you there.
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com
_____
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Puschock
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 1:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
Howdy,
I agree with Bruce and others that the Herring Gulls from Daytona are most
likely _smithsonianus_. However, I wonder about the significance, if any,
of the fact that in the photos that show other Herring Gulls with the birds
in question, the subject birds appear to show darker primaries and tertials.
Granted, the sample size is extremely small, but does this argue against
their appearance being due to fading?
I should also mention that gulls suspected of being European Herrings have
been seen in this area since 2006, and I had no role in discovering them, so
don't give me the credit...or blame. Also, I haven't seen photos of some of
the first ones, so they might be "better" than the gulls I presented for
consideration.
Finally, the North American Gull Conference is happening next month in the
Daytona area so hopefully there will be a few more examples like these for
some of you to study and then clutter ID-Frontiers with your thoughts. I'm
also hoping someone will find me a "good" European Herring while I'm there.
John Puschock
Seattle, WA
g_g_allin(AT)hotmail.com
_____
From: bruce.mactavish1(AT)nf.sympatico.ca
To: g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM; BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:00:24 -0330
I think John Puschock's Florida 1st winter Herring Gulls emphasize how
little we know about the variations, and what could be unrecognized
subspecies, of Herring Gull in North America. <snip> How would such birds
look after living on the beach under the Florida sun for a couple months?
Perhaps the sun bleaching out of pale background brown washes would create
an even greater contrast with the darker barring? Speculation is my middle
name.
The fairly extensive tail bands of the Florida birds probably tell the
continent they originated from. On Oct 24, 2008 I found myself standing
with a bag bread on a wharf in the fishing port of Galway, Ireland
surrounded by 50 1st winter argenteus Herring Gulls. Not one of them
resembled the Florida birds. They all had narrow tail bands contrasting with
predominately white based tail feathers and rump <snip>
_____
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it
<http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/> now.
Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: John Puschock <g_g_allin(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 18 Dec 2009 9:38pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi again=2C
First=2C let me be clear that I'm not suggesting any one gull in particular=
is not a European Herring=2C but given that all of the ones I have seen ar=
e not quite right for that taxon=2C it seems to me then that they're most l=
ikely not. If I had seen just one=2C I might feel differently=2C but inste=
ad I saw four within two hours. But my assumptions may be incorrect.
The gulls that Alex saw may have been much better for European Herring=3B h=
owever=2C I've seen few photos of those birds=2C none of which showed the t=
ail. I suggest checking the archives of BirdBrains for more information ab=
out all these gulls. The following URL should pull up all the relevant pos=
ts since 2006 (I apologize for not doing the 'tinyURL' thing): http://lists=
erv.admin.usf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?S2=3DBRDBRAIN&q=3Deuropean+herring&s=3D&f=
=3D&a=3D2006&b=3D2009 . There are additional photos available there=2C inc=
luding photos of a gull that Klaus Malling Olsen said looked to be a "perfe=
ct argentatus": http://listserv.admin.usf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=3Dind0703&=
L=3DBRDBRAIN&P=3DR125749 .
Alvaro=2C I think the "Andy Wraithmell" gull on my page is the bird you saw=
=2C but I can't say for sure...Wait=2C I just checked Surfbirds for the dat=
e=2C and it turns out Andy also sent me one of your photos! So yes=2C it's=
the same bird. (Let me know if you want me to take the photo off my site.=
)
Regarding Vega=2C I've given some thought to that=2C but=2C given the curre=
nt state of knowledge=2C isn't the "not quite right tail" also a little off=
for Vega? Also=2C if I recall correctly=2C most or all of the Daytona gul=
ls have been described as being a bit smaller than the average American Her=
ring. On a single bird that might not mean much=2C but on average=2C would=
n't that be bad for Vega? And isn't it a bit _too_ convenient how it would=
fit in with your keynote address (http://www.nbbd.com/fly/keynote/jaramill=
o/index.html) at the Space Coast Birding & Wildlife Festival=2C Alvaro??? =
=3B)
So=2C obviously=2C we're dealing with hybrids here. The question is are th=
ey _smithsonianus_ X _argenteus_ or _smithsonianus_ X _fuscus_ or somethin=
g else. :)
John Puschock
Seattle=2C WA
g_g_allin(AT)hotmail.com
Date: Fri=2C 18 Dec 2009 17:32:07 -0800
From: chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
John et al.=20
=20
I was there when Alex spotted
one of these Euro Herring Gulls at the Volusia Co landfill. I have photos o=
f
the thing but have no time right now to post them. Everything looks really =
good
for something non-smithsonianus=2C except the tail was darker than is typic=
al on
Herring Gulls. I see a lot of the western smithsonianus=2C and can say that=
this Old
World type Herring Gull we saw on that day is out of the norm for anything =
we
see as smithsonianus in North America. But the
conundrum is that the bird is not quite right for a European Herring either
perhaps=2C and once I get photos up I can let experts on the European taxa =
decide
if that is the case. But it makes me wonder if we are being misled by geogr=
aphy
here=2C and perhaps a horrible thought is possible =96 that these =93not
quite right=94 gulls may include young Vega Gulls. This is horrible because
we are only coming to grips with the identification of this creature here i=
n
North America south of Alaska=2C and the thought that there could be a low =
level
of them all the way to the east coast by now is a scary thought for field
identification =96but a wonderful challenge as well. Martin Reid was the
first to think that this was a possibility=2C and I thought he was nuts=2C =
maybe he
still is nuts (cheers Martin J) but he may have been dead right about the p=
ossibility of Vega
well away from the West Coast. <snip>
=20
Gull fans =96 here is the info on the
upcoming NA Gull Conference. It promises to be a blast=2C and at a place th=
at is
being discovered as a gull watching Mecca =96 Florida=92s central
coast. The opportunities for up close and personal gull study there are lik=
e
nothing I have ever seen in North America.=20
http://www.nbbd.com/fly/gulls/index.html
=20
See you there.=20
=20
Alvaro
=20
=20
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Subject: Re: European(?) Herring Gull
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: 19 Dec 2009 8:25am
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John et al.
Yes, this topic is cleverly convenient with regards to what I will talk
about at the gull fiesta in Florida. Picture me with pinky in mouth doing a
Dr. Evil laugh.
But with regards to your questions, I am not sure that size is good or bad
for vega vs. smithsonianus. Smith is amazingly variable, I assume Vega as
well. If there are reported size differences between the two, I would
imagine that the sample sizes for smithsonianus are large, but are they for
Vega? In other words, could it be sampling error. My impression is that Vega
is smaller than smithsonianus on average, but I must admit that I had never
given it serious thought or looked at tables with measurements. In terms of
structure though Vega seems on average to be thinner billed and
longer-winged based on photos...but of course with complete overlap with
smithsonianus. Again looking at photos and also in conversation with various
gull folks, it seems that first cycle vega often have a rather wide dark
tail band which appears as if the tail was all dark. Again this is variable,
but it appears to be much more common than in European Herrings
A few thoughts about the Florida gulls that are worth thinking about I
think. 1) they are so highly contrasting. The whites are very white, and the
black on primaries really black. The contrast is something I do not see on
smithsonianus, which tend to be brown and buff, rather than black and white.
Could a hybrid combination of smithsonianus with something else give us
this? Could a hybrid with white-winged, or back-crosses create a **more**
contrasting look? I don't know, but it is counter-intuitive. So as far as
hybrids go the more likely ones would be the two you mention smith x Euro
Herring, smith x Lesser Black-back which could create something like this
perhaps? 2) The narrow but distinct white crestcents on the tips of the
primaries. This strikes me as very consistent on these birds, and again
something that is not something that stands out on first cycle
smithsonianus, more of a feature you see on Thayer's Gull, or at least is is
more noticeable on that species. This may just be an effect of the high
contrast, the really black primaries making the pale fringe stand out. Vega
Gulls tend to show noticeable white fringes on primaries in first cycle. 3)
There are some gulls in winter in California that approach the "ideal" Vega
Gull look but upon close inspection show pale inner webs to the primaries
and have a Thayer's like underwing pattern. I am at a loss to understand
what these birds are. They may be some extreme Thayer's plumage that is
highly contrasting (often first cycle Thayer's are very barred and
contrasting on coverts, like European Herring and Vega), but these extreme
birds also have noticeable whitish bases to the tail unlike what is seen on
Thayer's. I have seen these things on a few occasions every winter for the
last few years and have been left with big question marks about what they
are. Could Thayer's be hybridizing with smithsonianus? God help us. It would
be good to see what the underwings look like on these oddball Florida Gulls,
if any are Thayer's like that would be problematic.
I posted this bird once, but it is worth looking at again. Its the second
bird, the first cycle one. Look at how well patterned those coverts are, the
bird has rather pale underwings approaching Thayers. But one wing has a
first cycle pattern, and the other wing more of a second cycle pattern!!!
Florida is certainly the land of the crazy gulls:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
cheers,
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao(AT)coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com <http://www.fieldguides.com/>
_____
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Puschock
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 8:38 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
Hi again,
First, let me be clear that I'm not suggesting any one gull in particular is
not a European Herring, but given that all of the ones I have seen are not
quite right for that taxon, it seems to me then that they're most likely
not. If I had seen just one, I might feel differently, but instead I saw
four within two hours. But my assumptions may be incorrect.
The gulls that Alex saw may have been much better for European Herring;
however, I've seen few photos of those birds, none of which showed the tail.
I suggest checking the archives of BirdBrains for more information about all
these gulls. The following URL should pull up all the relevant posts since
2006 (I apologize for not doing the 'tinyURL' thing):
http://listserv.admin.usf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?S2=BRDBRAIN&q=european+herring
&s=&f=&a=2006&b=2009 . There are additional photos available there,
including photos of a gull that Klaus Malling Olsen said looked to be a
"perfect argentatus":
http://listserv.admin.usf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind0703&L=BRDBRAIN&P=R12574
9 .
Alvaro, I think the "Andy Wraithmell" gull on my page is the bird you saw,
but I can't say for sure...Wait, I just checked Surfbirds for the date, and
it turns out Andy also sent me one of your photos! So yes, it's the same
bird. (Let me know if you want me to take the photo off my site.)
Regarding Vega, I've given some thought to that, but, given the current
state of knowledge, isn't the "not quite right tail" also a little off for
Vega? Also, if I recall correctly, most or all of the Daytona gulls have
been described as being a bit smaller than the average American Herring. On
a single bird that might not mean much, but on average, wouldn't that be bad
for Vega? And isn't it a bit _too_ convenient how it would fit in with your
keynote address (http://www.nbbd.com/fly/keynote/jaramillo/index.html) at
the Space Coast Birding & Wildlife Festival, Alvaro??? ;)
So, obviously, we're dealing with hybrids here. The question is are they
_smithsonianus_ X _argenteus_ or _smithsonianus_ X _fuscus_ or something
else. :)
John Puschock
Seattle, WA
g_g_allin(AT)hotmail.com
_____
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:32:07 -0800
From: chucao(AT)COASTSIDE.NET
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] European(?) Herring Gull
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
John et al.
I was there when Alex spotted one of these Euro Herring Gulls at the
Volusia Co landfill. I have photos of the thing but have no time right now
to post them. Everything looks really good for something non-smithsonianus,
except the tail was darker than is typical on Herring Gulls. I see a lot of
the western smithsonianus, and can say that this Old World type Herring Gull
we saw on that day is out of the norm for anything we see as smithsonianus
in North America. But the conundrum is that the bird is not quite right for
a European Herring either perhaps, and once I get photos up I can let
experts on the European taxa decide if that is the case. But it makes me
wonder if we are being misled by geography here, and perhaps a horrible
thought is possible - that these "not quite right" gulls may include young
Vega Gulls. This is horrible because we are only coming to grips with the
identification of this creature here in North America south of Alaska, and
the thought that there could be a low level of them all the way to the east
coast by now is a scary thought for field identification -but a wonderful
challenge as well. Martin Reid was the first to think that this was a
possibility, and I thought he was nuts, maybe he still is nuts (cheers
Martin :-)) but he may have been dead right about the possibility of Vega
well away from the West Coast. <snip>
Gull fans - here is the info on the upcoming NA Gull Conference. It promises
to be a blast, and at a place that is being discovered as a gull watching
Mecca - Florida's central coast. The opportunities for up close and personal
gull study there are like nothing I have ever seen in North America.
http://www.nbbd.com/fly/gulls/index.html
See you there.
Alvaro
_____
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