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ID-FRONTIERS for December 20-26, 2009
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Messages are displayed in the order they were received.
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| Subject | From | Date | Time |
| Possible European Herring Gull | Kirk Zufelt | Sun, 20 Dec 2009 | 2:06am |
| Re: Possible European Herring Gull | Norman D.van Swelm | Sun, 20 Dec 2009 | 5:11am |
| Re: Possible European Herring Gull | Peter Adriaens | Sun, 20 Dec 2009 | 5:07pm |
| another EURO type Herring | Bill Rudden | Sun, 20 Dec 2009 | 6:54pm |
| Flipped photos | Ross Ahmed | Wed, 23 Dec 2009 | 2:53pm |
| Re: Flipped photos | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=3D=3 | Thu, 24 Dec 2009 | 12:37am |
| Re: Flipped photos | Richard Chandler | Thu, 24 Dec 2009 | 4:45am |
| Re: Flipped photos | Ross Ahmed | Thu, 24 Dec 2009 | 4:51am |
| Re: Flipped photos | Collinson, Dr Jon M. | Thu, 24 Dec 2009 | 5:24am |
| Re: Flipped photos | Norman D.van Swelm | Thu, 24 Dec 2009 | 5:31am |
| Re: Flipped photos | Ken Blankenship | Thu, 24 Dec 2009 | 6:24am |
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To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'.
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Subject: Possible European Herring Gull
From: Kirk Zufelt <zufelt_k(AT)SHAW.CA>
Date: 20 Dec 2009 2:06am
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Hello
I have been following this thread closely. I was doing the CBC at the
SauIt Ste. Marie Landfill on Eastern Lake Superior and I was shocked
when I came a cross what I think is a very good candidate for a
European Herring Gull. I know what you are thinking and I know it
sounds crazy but please have a look at the pictures on my blog before
you delete this. I have spent hundreds of hours studying American
Herring Gulls over the last several years and this bird jumped out at
me immediately. I have a very good feel for the tremendous variation
in first year Herring Gulls but this bird really seems to match L. a.
argentatus very well. I would really appreciate some expert opinions
on this bird. I have posted a number of very detailed pictures of this
bird along with comparison pictures of American Herring Gulls on my
blog. I would be very keen on people's comments.
Kirk Zufelt
Sault Ste. Marie Ont
http://larusology.blogspot.com/
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Subject: Re: Possible European Herring Gull
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 20 Dec 2009 5:11am
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Well done Kirk! This is the type of gull I call pale variant Russian =
Herring Gull L.a.argentatus. Perhaps they have Glaucous influences in =
them hence the partially pale bill. Normally single gulls such as yours =
are seen in the North Sea area in January-February. Mind you we think =
they belong to L.a.argentatus but we have no definite proof but who =
knows one day one turns up with a Russian or Norwegian colour-ring!=20
If I remember it well Martin Elliot produced some excellent plates of =
pale L.a.argentatus in Golley,M. & M.Elliot.1993.Identification of =
argenteus Herring Gulls. Birding World 6:32-3.
See also:
http://www.radioactiverobins.com/gulls/russianherringgull/russianherringg=
ull.htm
http://www.radioactiverobins.com/gulls/arcticgull/arcticgull.htm
Cheers, Norman
>I have been following this thread closely. I was doing the CBC at the =
SauIt Ste. Marie Landfill on Eastern Lake Superior and I was shocked =
when I came a cross what I think is a very good candidate for a European =
Herring Gull. I know what you are thinking and I know it sounds crazy =
but please have a look at the pictures on my blog before you delete =
this. I have spent hundreds of hours studying American Herring Gulls =
over the last several years and this bird jumped out at me immediately. =
I have a very good feel for the tremendous variation in first year =
Herring Gulls but this bird really seems to match L. a. argentatus very =
well. I would really appreciate some expert opinions on this bird. I =
have posted a number of very detailed pictures of this bird along with =
comparison pictures of American Herring Gulls on my blog. I would be =
very keen on people's comments.
Kirk Zufelt
Sault Ste. Marie Ont =20
http://larusology.blogspot.com/
Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbirdwg01
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Possible European Herring Gull
From: Peter Adriaens <p_adriaens(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2009 5:07pm
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hi all,
as someone who also lives in the North Sea area, I feel that, even though the
Sault Ste. Marie gull looks obviously pale and eye-catching, congratulations may
be a bit too optimistic.
At the risk of sounding overly critical, I think there are still several subtle
features that do not look entirely convincing for European Herring Gull.
Perhaps too much importance is placed on the paleness of the plumage and the
barred look of the wingcoverts and tertials, but not enough on the tail pattern
and pattern of the underparts.
First though, there is the bill pattern. While it is true that a bicoloured bill
in itself is not an issue for argentatus, the pattern is only rarely as
clear-cut and Glaucous-like as in this bird. In most European HGs, the black
colour of the bill tip continues along the mandibles towards the base.
To my eyes, the tail looks a bit unusual for European HG in that the outermost
tailfeathers appear so densely barred right up to the feather bases. In European
HG, the dark bars on the outermost rectrices are typically sparse or widely
separated, creating the impression of rather white outer tail bases. I don't
know if there is a need for more comparison flightshots of European HG on the
internet, but have uploaded mine:
http://picasaweb.google.be/Zorkyyy/EuropeanHerringGull_1stcycle_tailpatterns
I have tried to include all kinds of examples, from birds with almost clean
white tail base to those with densely barred rectrices. The latter are only a
small minority though.
More flightshots, of Finnish argentatus, can be found here.
The pattern of the lower hindneck, upper mantle, belly, and, particularly,
breast looks too smooth. There is still this impression of a pale head popping
out of a dark body, which is not often seen in European birds.
http://www.gull-research.org/hg/HG1CY07.htm has been mentioned already, but here
are some more photo archives of European Herring Gulls that may prove useful:
http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/JuvHGs_YLGs2008.html (birds on the left)
http://www.pbase.com/slisch/herring_gull
http://www.pbase.com/gullpix/argentatus
http://www.birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/lararg/
http://www.birdersplayground.co.uk/Herring%20Gull%20-%201st%20years%201.html
Kind regards,
Peter
________________________________
From: Norman D.van Swelm <Norman.vanswelm(AT)WXS.NL>
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 1:11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible European Herring Gull
Well done Kirk! This is the type of gull I call pale variant
Russian Herring Gull L.a.argentatus. Perhaps they have
Glaucous influences in them hence the partially pale bill. Normally single
gulls such as yours are seen in the North Sea area in January-February. Mind you
we think they belong to L.a.argentatus but we have no
definite proof but who knows one day one turns up with a Russian or
Norwegian colour-ring!
If I remember it well Martin Elliot produced some excellent plates of pale
L.a.argentatus in Golley,M. & M.Elliot.1993.Identification of argenteus Herring
Gulls. Birding World 6:32-3.
See also:
http://www.radioactiverobins.com/gulls/russianherringgull/russianherringgull.htm
http://www.radioactiverobins.com/gulls/arcticgull/arcticgull.htm
Cheers, Norman
>
>>I have been following this thread closely. I was doing the CBC at the
> SauIt Ste. Marie Landfill on Eastern Lake Superior and I was shocked when I
> came a cross what I think is a very good candidate for a European Herring
> Gull. I know what you are thinking and I know it sounds crazy but please have
> a look at the pictures on my blog before you delete this. I have spent
> hundreds of hours studying American Herring Gulls over the last several years
> and this bird jumped out at me immediately. I have a very good feel for the
> tremendous variation in first year Herring Gulls but this bird really seems
to
> match L. a. argentatus very well. I would really appreciate some expert
> opinions on this bird. I have posted a number of very detailed pictures of
> this bird along with comparison pictures of American Herring Gulls on my
blog.
> I would be very keen on people's comments.
>
>
>Kirk Zufelt
>Sault Ste. Marie Ont
>
>
>
>
> http://larusology.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
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Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
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Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
----DELETED text/html MIME SECTION----
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: another EURO type Herring
From: Bill Rudden <bilrudn(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 20 Dec 2009 6:54pm
I have never seen a live gull like this, and or posted from Midwest.
http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30691.0
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Subject: Flipped photos
From: Ross Ahmed <ma002a5887(AT)BLUEYONDER.CO.UK>
Date: 23 Dec 2009 2:53pm
I've just noticed in one relatively well known photographic guide that a photo
of a bird has been
'flipped' i.e. a bird which faced left in the original photo, faces right in the
photographic guide.
This seems to have been done so all birds on the page are facing in the same
direction.
Could anyone suggest any ways in which this might affect the on the ID of the
species concerned,
if at all?
Thanks
Ross Ahmed
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
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Subject: Re: Flipped photos
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=3D=3FISO-8859-1=3FQ=3FGreg=5FNeise=3F=3D?= <gregneise(AT)ILBIRDS.COM>
Date: 24 Dec 2009 12:37am
What possible consequence, as far as identification is concerned, could
flipping an image horizontally incur?
I have flipped images, especially with gulls — so that the bills are all
facing the same direction and are therefore easier to compare — to make a
point.
-greg neise
Berwyn , IL
On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:53:00 -0700, Ross Ahmed <ma002a5887(AT)BLUEYONDER.CO.UK>
wrote:
>I've just noticed in one relatively well known photographic guide that a
photo of a bird has been
>'flipped' i.e. a bird which faced left in the original photo, faces right
in the photographic guide.
>This seems to have been done so all birds on the page are facing in the
same direction.
>
>Could anyone suggest any ways in which this might affect the on the ID of
the species concerned,
>if at all?
>
>Thanks
>Ross Ahmed
>
>
>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
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[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Flipped photos
From: Richard Chandler <r_chandler(AT)TISCALI.CO.UK>
Date: 24 Dec 2009 4:45am
As the author of 2/3 (depending on how you count!) photo guides where
photos have been deliberately flipped so that all face right, may I
confirm that, as Greg Neise says, it was done to allow different
images can be compared. I can think of only two situations where it
might be confusing to flip images; in neither case is it an
identification issue.
One, where a particular individual bird is being considered, if the
plumage is slightly different on one side compared to the other (more
new scapulars on one side than the other, perhaps), then flipping may
raise doubts as to which individual is involved. Two, with Wrybills
(I think the only "asymmetric" bird - all have bills that curve to the
right) it would be obvious that the image had been flipped, but it
would not be appropriate to to use a flipped image.
Best wishes, Richard.
Richard Chandler
Oundle, Northants., UK
See Shorebirds books at:-
http://www.acblack.com/Catalogue/details.asp?sku=1425607&dept%5Fid=2&mscssid=A09HAKQ8HGBF8NVKSMXC0CHA61LL33ME
or http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8997.html
On 23 Dec 2009, at 21:53, Ross Ahmed wrote:
> I've just noticed in one relatively well known photographic guide
> that a photo of a bird has been
> 'flipped' i.e. a bird which faced left in the original photo, faces
> right in the photographic guide.
> This seems to have been done so all birds on the page are facing in
> the same direction.
>
> Could anyone suggest any ways in which this might affect the on the
> ID of the species concerned,
> if at all?
>
> Thanks
> Ross Ahmed
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Flipped photos
From: Ross Ahmed <ma002a5887(AT)BLUEYONDER.CO.UK>
Date: 24 Dec 2009 4:51am
Thanks for that Richard.
It has been suggested that it would cause problems with Crossbills also.
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Chandler
Sent: 24 December 2009 11:45
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Flipped photos
As the author of 2/3 (depending on how you count!) photo guides where
photos have been deliberately flipped so that all face right, may I
confirm that, as Greg Neise says, it was done to allow different
images can be compared. I can think of only two situations where it
might be confusing to flip images; in neither case is it an
identification issue.
One, where a particular individual bird is being considered, if the
plumage is slightly different on one side compared to the other (more
new scapulars on one side than the other, perhaps), then flipping may
raise doubts as to which individual is involved. Two, with Wrybills
(I think the only "asymmetric" bird - all have bills that curve to the
right) it would be obvious that the image had been flipped, but it
would not be appropriate to to use a flipped image.
Best wishes, Richard.
Richard Chandler
Oundle, Northants., UK
See Shorebirds books at:-
http://www.acblack.com/Catalogue/details.asp?sku=1425607&dept%5Fid=2&mscssid
=A09HAKQ8HGBF8NVKSMXC0CHA61LL33ME
or http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8997.html
On 23 Dec 2009, at 21:53, Ross Ahmed wrote:
> I've just noticed in one relatively well known photographic guide
> that a photo of a bird has been
> 'flipped' i.e. a bird which faced left in the original photo, faces
> right in the photographic guide.
> This seems to have been done so all birds on the page are facing in
> the same direction.
>
> Could anyone suggest any ways in which this might affect the on the
> ID of the species concerned,
> if at all?
>
> Thanks
> Ross Ahmed
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
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Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Flipped photos
From: "Collinson, Dr Jon M." <m.collinson(AT)ABDN.AC.UK>
Date: 24 Dec 2009 5:24am
There's a potential problem with important records of individual birds (vagrants
etc.) which are then subsequently published as mirror images in books etc for
aesthetic reasons. Suddenly the description of the bird may not match with the
image. not aware of it being a big problem, but I have come across it.
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------
J. Martin Collinson - m.collinson(AT)abdn.ac.uk
Reader in Biomedical Sciences
School of Medical Sciences
University of Aberdeen
Institute of Medical Sciences
Foresterhill
Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
UK
Tel: +44 (0) 1224 555750
Fax: +44 (0) 1224 555844
Mobile: +44 (0) 7899 065930
________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Chandler
[r_chandler(AT)TISCALI.CO.UK]
Sent: 24 December 2009 11:44
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Flipped photos
As the author of 2/3 (depending on how you count!) photo guides where
photos have been deliberately flipped so that all face right, may I
confirm that, as Greg Neise says, it was done to allow different
images can be compared. I can think of only two situations where it
might be confusing to flip images; in neither case is it an
identification issue.
One, where a particular individual bird is being considered, if the
plumage is slightly different on one side compared to the other (more
new scapulars on one side than the other, perhaps), then flipping may
raise doubts as to which individual is involved. Two, with Wrybills
(I think the only "asymmetric" bird - all have bills that curve to the
right) it would be obvious that the image had been flipped, but it
would not be appropriate to to use a flipped image.
Best wishes, Richard.
Richard Chandler
Oundle, Northants., UK
See Shorebirds books at:-
http://www.acblack.com/Catalogue/details.asp?sku=1425607&dept%5Fid=2&mscssid=A09HAKQ8HGBF8NVKSMXC0CHA61LL33ME
or http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8997.html
On 23 Dec 2009, at 21:53, Ross Ahmed wrote:
> I've just noticed in one relatively well known photographic guide
> that a photo of a bird has been
> 'flipped' i.e. a bird which faced left in the original photo, faces
> right in the photographic guide.
> This seems to have been done so all birds on the page are facing in
> the same direction.
>
> Could anyone suggest any ways in which this might affect the on the
> ID of the species concerned,
> if at all?
>
> Thanks
> Ross Ahmed
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
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Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Flipped photos
From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm(AT)wxs.nl>
Date: 24 Dec 2009 5:31am
I suppose flipping gynandromorphs can cause problems. Which reminds me, if
it is true that their plumage is more or less split in two halves flipping
them may not be easy in case of a swimming bird with one half underwater or
when, in case of duck, it is upending.
Merry Christmas, Norman
Richard Chandler wrote: > As the author of 2/3 (depending on how you count!)
photo guides where
> photos have been deliberately flipped so that all face right, may I
> confirm that, as Greg Neise says, it was done to allow different images
> can be compared. I can think of only two situations where it might be
> confusing to flip images; in neither case is it an identification issue.
>
> One, where a particular individual bird is being considered, if the
> plumage is slightly different on one side compared to the other (more new
> scapulars on one side than the other, perhaps), then flipping may raise
> doubts as to which individual is involved. Two, with Wrybills (I think
> the only "asymmetric" bird - all have bills that curve to the right) it
> would be obvious that the image had been flipped, but it would not be
> appropriate to to use a flipped image.
Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
[ << | >> | ^^ ]
Subject: Re: Flipped photos
From: Ken Blankenship <kenhblankenship(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 24 Dec 2009 6:24am
----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----
Hello, all. Ross is correct that flipping photos could lead to identificati=
on problems with crossbills. Specifically, when dealing with the identifica=
tion of individual birds. As many of you know, b ill- crossing morphs occur=
approximately 50/50, and this is believed to be related to the overall eff=
iciency of foraging success of a flock. Because crossbills always direct th=
e point of the lower mandible towards the axis of closed conifer cones, ind=
ividual birds are "left or right-handed," because they always orient their =
heads the same way. By having about half of each bill-crossing morph repres=
ented in a flock, the birds will have more success foraging, as some cones =
are oriented in ways that would be difficult for one morph to access but ea=
sy for the opposite morph to access (lack of a near enough perch, blocked b=
y dense foliage, etc.) .=20
Thus, all this being said, the only time a photo being flipped would really=
cause any problems would be if one was trying to differentiate between ind=
ividual birds. See sources below, and also thanks to Craig Benkman who prov=
ided some of the information above via email.=20
Ken Blankenship=20
Marietta, Georgia, USA=20
Benkman, C. W. 1996 Are the ratios of bill crossing morphs in crossbills th=
e result of frequency-dependent selection? Evolutionary Ecology: Vol. 10, p=
p. 119-126.=20
Tordoff, H. B. Social Organization and Behavior in a Flock of Captive, Nonb=
reeding Red Crossbills. Condor: Vol. 56, No. 6, November-December, 1954.=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Ross Ahmed" <ma002a5887(AT)BLUEYONDER.CO.UK>=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 6:51:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern=
=20
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Flipped photos=20
Thanks for that Richard.=20
It has been suggested that it would cause problems with Crossbills also.=20
Ross=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification=20
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Chandler=20
Sent: 24 December 2009 11:45=20
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU=20
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Flipped photos=20
As the author of 2/3 (depending on how you count!) photo guides where =C2=
=A0=20
photos have been deliberately flipped so that all face right, may I =C2=A0=
=20
confirm that, as Greg Neise says, it was done to allow different =C2=A0=20
images can be compared. =C2=A0I can think of only two situations where it =
=C2=A0=20
might be confusing to flip images; in neither case is it an =C2=A0=20
identification issue.=20
One, where a particular individual bird is being considered, if the =C2=A0=
=20
plumage is slightly different on one side compared to the other (more =C2=
=A0=20
new scapulars on one side than the other, perhaps), then flipping may =C2=
=A0=20
raise doubts as to which individual is involved. =C2=A0Two, with Wrybills =
=C2=A0=20
(I think the only "asymmetric" bird - all have bills that curve to the =C2=
=A0=20
right) it would be obvious that the image had been flipped, but it =C2=A0=
=20
would not be appropriate to to use a flipped image.=20
Best wishes, Richard.=20
Richard Chandler=20
Oundle, Northants., UK=20
See Shorebirds books at:-=20
=C2=A0=20
http://www.acblack.com/Catalogue/details.asp?sku=3D1425607&dept%5Fid=3D2&ms=
cssid=20
=3DA09HAKQ8HGBF8NVKSMXC0CHA61LL33ME=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0or =C2=A0http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8997.html=20
On 23 Dec 2009, at 21:53, Ross Ahmed wrote:=20
> I've just noticed in one relatively well known photographic guide =C2=A0=
=20
> that a photo of a bird has been=20
> 'flipped' i.e. a bird which faced left in the original photo, faces =C2=
=A0=20
> right in the photographic guide.=20
> This seems to have been done so all birds on the page are facing in =C2=
=A0=20
> the same direction.=20
>=20
> Could anyone suggest any ways in which this might affect the on the =C2=
=A0=20
> ID of the species concerned,=20
> if at all?=20
>=20
> Thanks=20
> Ross Ahmed=20
>=20
>=20
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> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html=20
Join or Leave BIRDWG01:=20
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